--- Day changed Sun Apr 05 2009 01:21 < kanzure> drazak: Hey. 01:36 -!- Fair [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-49-241.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:47 -!- Fair [n=Nofaris@adsl-75-42-49-241.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31 -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC00F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:50 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:52 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-192.public.utexas.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 03:22 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:35 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:45 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9F46C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:07 -!- fenn [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:12 -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:17 -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #hplusroadmap [] 08:26 < fenn> kanzure: know who the guy in picture 21 is? http://www.austin360.com/alist/mediahub/media/slideshow/index.jsp?tId=149519 08:27 < fenn> huh. cupcake bot in picture 32, dated march 14 - that was before they went public 09:01 -!- amaruk_ [n=amaruk@p4FDC134F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:17 -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC00F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40 -!- any99109437 [n=someone@75-120-29-33.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:47 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-32-15.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:21 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:48 < kanzure> fenn: the guy in picture 21 is with the Austin Robot Group 10:48 < kanzure> last time I checked up on the group, he was making some PCBs for some reason or another 10:49 < kanzure> erm, he was providing the designs 11:11 < fenn> so, you don't know his name? i guess i could just ask on the list 11:11 < fenn> i was interested because that's EMC on the computer screen 11:12 < fenn> didn't know anyone in town who was using it 11:17 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9F46C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:20 < kanzure> it might be 'wolf'. but if 'wolf' is the current Leader, that's not him 11:56 < kanzure> I'd like to see a "Copy Rights" document where "we the coppiers formally confirm that we indeed have the ability to copy and paste" 11:59 < fenn> aroo? 11:59 < fenn> it's not vern, i konw that much 11:59 < fenn> are you talking about a copyleft license? 12:02 < kanzure> it's based off of a play on the words of "Copy Rights"- it's like setting up a "Human Bill of Rights" and then other people laughing at you saying that they will fight against those things you have outlined, but when in reality we know that the "Copy Rights" will win in the end (or how they somewhat already are) 12:03 < kanzure> anyway, on to something that actually matters 12:03 < kanzure> for some reason I have become interested in 3D CAD shape similarity recognition 12:03 < kanzure> I think I was doing that because I was wondering about how to see whether or not a part can fit together with another part 12:03 < kanzure> however, Reeb graphs (skeleton charts of a given topology) might not be appropriate for that- except for rapid similarity assessment (it's generated from a mesh, so you can set the resolution of the mesh to whatever you want and get a more detailed Reeb graph (or not)) 12:04 < kanzure> um, anyway, there were a few papers that I found that suggested some alternatives- but you were offline when I found them- 12:04 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/The%20analysis%20of%20potential%20mating%20trajectories%20and%20grasp%20sites%20-%201993.pdf 12:04 < kanzure> The analysis of potential mating trajectories and grasp sites 12:04 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Geometric%20reasoning%20about%20assembly%20tools.pdf Geometric reasoning about assembly tools 12:05 < kanzure> in particular they seem to suggest a volume minimization approach. Suppose you have two parts: when they are "connected", certain tolerances on the ports will be mutually satisfied, and there will be zero interference between the two CAD models (i.e., no surfaces going into impossible regions) 12:05 -!- macowell [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:05 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:06 < kanzure> another idea I had was to look at shipment packaging- like when you get a new computer in a box from a store- you usually have styrofoam packaging that fits the contours of the part that you have bought 12:06 < kanzure> or sometimes you have "stuffing" shoved into various ports (I forget what context though)-- and this "stuffing" would be the general shape of the port 12:07 < kanzure> which is what needs to be matched in terms of Reeb graphs (or just literal matching for exact shape similarity) 12:07 < cis-action> nice looking faq, kanzure 12:08 -!- macowell [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #hplusroadmap [] 12:08 < fenn> most interfaces on super-custom consumer products are similar shape but many modular systems have point or line contact 12:08 < kanzure> one of the papers showed an array of different designs- like a simple spider, teddy bear, human figure, snake, ball, etc.,- and then ran the Reeb graph similarity algorithm over the data set and showed how it found that a human was somewhat like a teddy bear, and a light bulb was somewhat like a blah, etc. For rapidly figuring out what to connect to what, maybe that's useful, but .. 12:08 < fenn> like t-slot versus a keyboard shell 12:08 < kanzure> fenn: how do you classify USB? 12:08 < kanzure> a USB female port, I mean 12:08 < kanzure> cis-action: thanks 12:08 < fenn> but we're generally more interested in modular systems since they have more potential uses 12:08 < fenn> you mean the shape? 12:09 < kanzure> cis-action: it needs a lot of work. 12:09 < kanzure> fenn: I mean whether it is a point contact or line contact or shape contact when a male USB port thingy is connected 12:09 < fenn> usb is easy because it's always the same thing; you dont even need to do shape recognition (why would you stuff something that's not a usb connector into a usb port?) 12:09 < kanzure> hell if I know :) 12:09 < kanzure> but remember the idea here is that you want to check whether two machines, machineA and machineB, can be connected 12:09 < kanzure> the first step is parametric resolution: do the "units" "add up" ? 12:10 < kanzure> the second step is geometrical. 12:10 < kanzure> "does it actually interface properly?" 12:10 < fenn> my point is you can bypass the geometrical step for well defined standards like usb 12:10 < kanzure> okay, sure 12:10 < kanzure> no arguments there 12:11 < fenn> unless there's multiple connectors trying to fit together closely 12:11 < kanzure> cis-action: I've noticed that nobody replied to that thread I started. 12:11 < fenn> so i guess if you have the software you might as well check 12:11 < fenn> kanzure: humans are lazy good for nothing bastards 12:11 < kanzure> rawr humans rawr 12:11 * kanzure thrashes around 12:11 < fenn> we need an autofaq :) 12:11 < kanzure> isn't that a module in autoproject? 12:12 < kanzure> erm. apt-cache knows all. /me checks 12:12 < fenn> no, it's a short story philip k dick ought to have written 12:13 < kanzure> apt-get install rtfm post-faq faqomatic 12:13 < kanzure> http://faqomatic.sourceforge.net/fom-serve/cache/1.html 12:13 < kanzure> "This site documents the Faq-O-Matic. The Faq-O-Matic is a CGI-based system that automates the process of maintaining a FAQ (or Frequently Asked Questions list). It allows visitors to your FAQ to take part in keeping it up-to-date. A permission system also makes it useful as a help-desk application, bug-tracking database, or documentation system." 12:13 < kanzure> looks lame 12:14 < fenn> it is 12:14 < fenn> i did a survey of faq software for a Paying Job 12:14 < kanzure> gasp 12:14 < fenn> they all suck, more or less 12:14 < kanzure> I'm sure there's crap modules in drupal 12:14 < kanzure> there can't be much to it 12:15 < kanzure> what new feature could possibly be added to make these things interesting? "add a question, answer a question"- this is a newbie php programmer assignment 12:15 < kanzure> anyway 12:15 < fenn> woof 12:16 < fenn> i wonder if i can actually draw well anymore 12:16 < kanzure> there was also a paper that I found about "topology optimization" of interconnects- in particular they were doing de novo designs of interconnections 12:16 < fenn> i want to illustrate some of eric's TMP2 12:16 < kanzure> and then various FEM computations to figure out proper contours and such 12:16 < kanzure> fenn: that would be nice. 12:17 < fenn> i'm conflicted because i know the "perfect" way would be to finish SKDB and make cad models etc etc 12:17 < cis-action> "Legal issues: hereby resolved" lol 12:17 < kanzure> I'm biased but I think we're close 12:17 < fenn> but i realize that is going to take forever/n where n=-log(rand(1) 12:17 < fenn> ) 12:18 < kanzure> well think about it. once you have the ability to check whether or not two parts are compatible, it kind of falls into place 12:18 < fenn> no, we also need a system of parts that fit together 12:18 < fenn> it's stupid to make assemblages of garbage 12:18 < kanzure> especially with the python libraries for: quantities/units, OCC, dependency management, serialization 12:18 < kanzure> huh? 12:19 < kanzure> so "command economy or else"? 12:19 < kanzure> (in the sense of imposing the same stringent rules that Legos' overlords impose) 12:19 < fenn> there are modular building systems but we don't have them modeled yet 12:20 < kanzure> I don't get your objection 12:20 < fenn> we should use modular reusable systems where appropriate, and optimized-to-death custom expensive disposable stuff where appropriate 12:20 < kanzure> basically right now I think we can get to the point where we have automatic instruction generation and compatibility matching and dependency resolution 12:20 < kanzure> but I agree that there needs to be reusable interconnects (of course) 12:20 < kanzure> but that just seems to be a modeling issue 12:20 < kanzure> i.e., sit down and model a USB female connector 12:20 < fenn> the thing is, modular building systems are easy to use, but take a lot of work up-front to get going 12:21 < fenn> whereas custom single-use have a linear scaling 12:21 < kanzure> (or pipe connections- I have a good book that shows the parametric modeling of pipe fittings) 12:21 < fenn> modular = geometric scaling with the number "worked" projects 12:21 < kanzure> what? 12:21 < kanzure> number worked projects? 12:21 < fenn> yeah, tested, proven 12:21 < fenn> number of projects 12:21 < kanzure> oh 12:21 < fenn> i guess i dont know how to word this right 12:22 < fenn> when building fighter jets, you can't re-use the geometry in other things 12:22 < kanzure> fighter jets have some ICs 12:22 < kanzure> which use standard pin connections 12:22 < fenn> actually it's the other way around 12:22 < fenn> you can't re-use geometry in fighter jets 12:23 < fenn> so it makes sense to just plow through the custom geometry in a hackish manner 12:23 < kanzure> you mean external geometry 12:23 < fenn> whereas for a widespread standardized system you'd put more effort into making it generic and reusable 12:23 < fenn> actually you know, i'm probably wrong 12:24 < fenn> with shape generators we can have both 12:24 * kanzure nods 12:24 < kanzure> have you ever opened up a toy plastic component? 12:24 < kanzure> they usually have slots for screws or something 12:24 < kanzure> even if they have custom contours 12:24 < kanzure> (the overall plastic shell, I mean) 12:24 < fenn> yeah a lot of that is auto generated 12:24 < fenn> the mold features 12:25 < fenn> i forget what the buzzword is 12:25 < kanzure> "crap" 12:25 < fenn> no, it's pretty much what i want in a cad system 12:25 < fenn> something or other technology 12:26 < kanzure> me was joking. "plastic crap" and everyone insulting throwaway products. 12:26 < fenn> plastic crap is incredibly high tech 12:26 < fenn> not my fault that most people don't value inexpensive things 12:27 < fenn> now, if it were designed for disassembly that'd be much better 12:27 < kanzure> okay, so I think we will want to have "shape similarity search" functionality (i.e., Reeb graph generation) plus specifically tagged regions in a CAD model for standard ports 12:27 < fenn> could you explain what a reeb graph is? 12:27 < kanzure> this is the same concept of having a 2D map in an RPG where you have a "tile layer" and an "events layer"- the "events layer" saying "waah waah I'm pipe fitting A" 12:27 < kanzure> a Reeb graph is the result of taking the mesh of a CAD model and then for each vertex calculating the sum of the geodesic distances from that point to all other vertices 12:28 < fenn> sure, interface specification .. is that "metadata"? 12:28 < kanzure> then, you classify each of those vertices into different sets 12:28 < kanzure> (yes, somewhat) 12:28 < fenn> vertex? ew 12:28 < kanzure> when you have a triangle that has a vertex in one region and another in another region, you split the triangle 12:28 < kanzure> until they are in separate regions for geodesic distances or whatever 12:28 < kanzure> anywho, then you convert each "edge" to a node in the Reeb graph, and each vertex is an arc, or something 12:29 < fenn> how do you differentiate into regions? 12:29 * kanzure strains his brain from reading the papers- it isn't stated the most elegantly 12:29 < kanzure> they didn't use a clustering algorithm... soo. let me think. 12:29 < fenn> obviously a sphere will always have one region 12:29 < kanzure> correct 12:30 < fenn> what about a cylinder? 12:30 < kanzure> any of the papers here: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/?C=M;O=D that list "Reeb" 12:30 < kanzure> meep, let me check first on the regionalization issue 12:32 < kanzure> try this one in particular: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Scale-Space%20Representations%20and%20their%20Applications%20to%203D%20Matching%20of%20Solid%20Models.pdf (just uploaded) 12:33 < fenn> i wonder if anyone actually uses these automated assembly trajectory generators in practice 12:34 < kanzure> oh wait, I think what they do is they have some constant 'p' 12:34 < kanzure> and the values for those regions (generated by the geodesic distance computation) are considered to be in the same set/region if they are within p distance of each other 12:35 < kanzure> and if not, I just came up with a new method to do it :p 12:35 < fenn> that's just an abstract 12:35 < kanzure> the link? 12:35 < fenn> yup 12:35 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Scale-space%20representation%20of%203D%20models%20and%20topological%20matching%20-%20Dmitriy%20Bespalov.pdf 12:35 < kanzure> try that one? 12:35 < fenn> anyway, i question the premise of converting an ideal (implicit geometry) cad model into some mesh thing, just to find features 12:36 < fenn> would make more sense to convert any mesh data into ideal primitives 12:36 < fenn> minimize the amount of information 12:37 -!- amaruk_ [n=amaruk@p4FDC134F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608]"] 12:37 < kanzure> what? 12:37 < fenn> so then you just have to compare cylinder 1 to cylinder 2, rather than comparing i for i in point cloud 1 to j for j in point cloud 2 12:37 < fenn> or am i misunderstanding something? 12:37 < kanzure> but what if it's some weird contour thingy? 12:37 < fenn> what sort of weird contour 12:37 < fenn> like a fractal coastline? 12:37 < kanzure> something that is not modeled by primitives (but of course, it could be) 12:38 < fenn> approximate to the level of elasticity of the part material 12:38 < kanzure> suppose you have a box with one surface that has an arbitrary geometry, lots of weird things going on 12:38 < kanzure> holes, spikes, pyramids, .. 12:38 < fenn> then model the geometry 12:38 < kanzure> but not defined like that 12:38 < kanzure> (just a point cloud) 12:38 < fenn> fuck point clouds 12:39 < kanzure> I guess that's not CAD 12:39 < fenn> if it really matters, you need to get higher resolution sampling of the point cloud 12:39 < kanzure> so what? 12:39 < kanzure> I mean, if you do get that high resolution sampling of the point cloud, then what? 12:39 < fenn> and then you can model them as implicit primitives 12:39 < kanzure> and how does your method of matching cylinders to cylinders help there? 12:39 < kanzure> blah. 12:39 < fenn> or with some kind of generative function like a noise function or fractal geometry 12:39 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:40 < kanzure> (btw, that paper is the wrong one- sorry) 12:40 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Reeb%20graph%20based%20shape%20retrieval%20for%20CAD.pdf 12:40 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Augmented%20Reeb%20graphs%20for%20content-based%20retrieval%20of%203D%20mesh%20models%20-%202004.pdf 12:40 < kanzure> those two are about Reeb graphs (at least) 12:40 < fenn> you have to make n^2 comparison functions for n primitives 12:40 < kanzure> also, I don't think it's based on meshing. I think they were using BRep contours 12:40 < fenn> but in practice, most primitives can be modeled by nurbs curves 12:41 < fenn> i dont know if it's a simple thing to do collision/interference detection between nurbs curves 12:41 < fenn> but to start with we can just do cylinder/cylinder, cylinder/sphere, cylinder/cube etc 12:41 < fenn> easier than grokking nurbs math at least :) 12:42 < fenn> or if you find ShapeMatch or whatever the OCC class was called 12:42 < kanzure> ShapePlacement (apparently) 12:42 < fenn> ya 12:43 < fenn> my concern with farming it off to some black box is i dont know if it's correct mathematically 12:43 < fenn> like, will it take into account tolerances? 12:44 < fenn> or nonlinear constraints? 12:44 < kanzure> that's one thing I've thought about, clear the slate- new explanation 12:44 < fenn> it just seems like geometry fit is so central that we should build it from the ground up 12:44 < kanzure> suppose you have a peg in modelA and a slot/hole in a flat surface in modelB 12:45 < kanzure> at pegA you have defined the surface to have some tag of a constraint 12:45 < kanzure> and the same in the slot in modelB, some tolerance definition (or something) 12:45 < kanzure> when you geometrically match up surfaces, anything in contact must satisfy each other's constraints 12:45 < kanzure> so "tolerance to tolerance, surface to surface" 12:45 < kanzure> hm? 12:45 < fenn> no, you can put a precise bolt in a sloppy hole 12:46 < kanzure> then the tolerances should represent that, shouldn't they? 12:46 < fenn> and the other way around, if the tolerances work out for you 12:46 < fenn> uh.. yes? 12:47 < kanzure> so then why did you say no? 12:48 < fenn> i thought you meant "precise bolt must go in precise hole" 12:48 < fenn> or something like that 12:48 < kanzure> oh, okay. but yeah. 12:48 < kanzure> "tolerance matching" where 'tolerances' are more like conditional expressions, or something 12:49 < fenn> tolerance is just another form of a constraint 12:49 < fenn> the whole ideal geometry thing is mathematical masturbation, really 12:49 < fenn> odd how it turns out 12:49 < kanzure> huh? ideal geometry fits, you mean? 12:49 < fenn> the more sophisticated approach (system of constraints) is the more practical 12:50 < kanzure> I don't see how it wouldn't be a system of constraints 12:50 < fenn> so like "1 inch cylinder" doesn't exist in reality 12:50 < kanzure> partA has a list of constraints, part B has a list of constraints, when they are fit together (and if they match geometrically), the constraints are checked and processed accordingly 12:50 < fenn> are you familiar with the "six sigma" concept? 12:51 < kanzure> I've only heard of it. some way to manage ISO 9000 organizations or something 12:51 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma 12:51 < fenn> anyway, the idea is that you need to have six standard deviations between the tolerances, in order to ignore all that messy stuff like quality control 12:52 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_capability 12:52 < fenn> it's supposed to make things cheaper by not requiring inspection 12:52 < kanzure> oh, sigma as in 'standard deviation' 12:52 < kanzure> huh 12:53 < fenn> i don't think it's the best way to make an automated system 12:53 < fenn> mathematical modeling is cheaper than super precise process control 12:54 < fenn> so, what i'm getting at is that we need to predict the process errors and account for their likelihood in fit checks 12:54 < fenn> so you can say "bolt A has a 99% chance of fitting in hole B" 12:54 < kanzure> ok. but how do you find "hole B" 12:55 < fenn> what do you mean find? 12:55 < kanzure> I select two models from the db. modelA and modelB. do they fit? 12:55 < fenn> fit how? 12:55 < fenn> i'm not interested in random thrashing around 12:55 < kanzure> does modelA (output) satisfy the input requirements of modelB? 12:56 < kanzure> (input requirements-> parametric units stuff) but also geometrical fit 12:56 < fenn> i want to specify a goal and have the system find a solution, that means it wants to connect a and b in a certain way (one interface to another specific interface) 12:56 < fenn> well, how we go about it depends on how much metadata is present 12:56 < kanzure> right 12:56 < fenn> if it's just an STL you have to do feature recognition etc 12:56 < fenn> if it's just features you have to do fit tests 12:57 < fenn> if it's named standards, you just do a logical comparison 12:57 < fenn> (somewhere in there you have standards definitions in terms of features) 12:57 < kanzure> btw, I do think we can include the checks on standard deviation, but that seems simple to me in comparison to the problem of accidentally having a situation where you have a bolt laying on part b's surface and wondering about tolerances when you really shouldn't be doing that (I guess if we implemented a multi-resolution fit algorithm where with a certain low resolution a screw on a flat surface is OK, that might happen, but I don't know if we're going to implement a variable-resolution fit checking algorithm like that) 12:58 < fenn> resolution? 12:58 < fenn> you're talking about polygon mesh reduction right? 12:59 < kanzure> yep, if you squint hard enough, you can make any tetris object look like it fits with any other tetris object 12:59 < fenn> i'm not talking about meshes 12:59 < kanzure> neither am I.. 12:59 < fenn> i dont think meshes are the way to go at all 13:00 < kanzure> ok, let's go about this a different way 13:00 < kanzure> there are a few different scenarios that we can imagine 13:00 < kanzure> the most easy scenario is where a part of the CAD model is tagged or whatever as a connection port thingy, and all is good and we can later do tolerance matching and conditional expressions between the two connection fit surfaces or points or lines (etc.) 13:01 < kanzure> another scenario that I can imagine though is where we don't have a standardized interface in use, and we don't know if two models (selected at random) are going to be able to geometrically connect 13:01 < kanzure> so suppose we didn't know that a peg goes into a hole 13:01 < fenn> but suppose you have lots of holes on the model - which hole do you look at? 13:01 < fenn> there's no way to know 13:02 < fenn> the only thing to do is try all of them and run the combined system in some super-duper-simulation 13:02 < fenn> each combined system* 13:03 < kanzure> well, actually, I think that's not true 13:03 < kanzure> suppose you have a metal plate with lots of holes 13:03 < kanzure> maybe these holes go to something in a giant machine, and out squirts different chemicals from each one (or something) 13:03 < kanzure> now, if you had partA that wants water, and only one hole in partB (with the many different holes) that squirts out water 13:03 < kanzure> then you know that you should do your geometrical fit checking on those two regions 13:04 < kanzure> no? 13:04 < fenn> how do you know which order to do the testing operations? 13:04 < kanzure> hm? like what? 13:04 < fenn> you can test all of the holes for geometry first, or test all of the holes for chemistry first 13:04 < kanzure> well you know you should do chemistry first since that information is already specified in both models 13:04 < kanzure> let's not do chemistry, let's say constraints 13:04 < kanzure> because that's really what we're talking about- which is where the 'pq' library comes in (units) 13:05 < fenn> chemistry is a constraint 13:05 < kanzure> ok ok ok 13:05 < fenn> pq needs to be able to describe other non-fundamental-unit constraints 13:05 < fenn> like, protocols n stuff 13:05 < kanzure> it has some nice "multiply units together" feature thingy 13:06 < kanzure> and that multiplication operation is conserved for as long as that variable/object lives 13:06 < fenn> so you can get the originally specified units? 13:06 * kanzure nods (IIRC) 13:06 < fenn> i remember the m^2/m^3 13:07 < fenn> ok so all this reeb graph stuff is dealing with meshes, right? 13:07 < kanzure> maybe.. I think I've seen a paper that was doing it just with BRep curves or something 13:07 < kanzure> blender implements reeb graphs for generating skeletons of an object 13:07 < kanzure> (in src/reeb.c) 13:08 < fenn> i guess i dont even understand what regli is trying to do 13:08 < fenn> who cares about part similarity 13:08 < kanzure> :p yeah.. 13:08 < kanzure> well here's what I was thinking 13:08 < kanzure> you'd put the model in a block and subtract the model 13:08 < kanzure> then generate the reeb graph for *that* 13:08 < kanzure> and then you can do similarity matching between that and other things you might want to shove into that first model.. 13:09 < fenn> ok 13:09 < kanzure> (that first model would have to have a bounding box, or something) 13:10 < fenn> well, i'll think about making sure stuff actually works; you can think about search algorithms :) 13:11 < kanzure> I think that the tolerances stuff can easily be implemented though 13:11 < fenn> it's like units all over again 13:11 < kanzure> say that either through the search algorithm or through reduction you know that two parts fit together in xyz way 13:11 < fenn> another number attached to every measurement.. blarg 13:11 < kanzure> then you have a list of constraints for each of those two parts 13:11 < fenn> at least pq includes support for tolerance 13:11 < kanzure> so you evaluate them to make sure they match, what's the problem with that? 13:12 < fenn> no problem with that 13:12 < kanzure> hrm 13:12 < kanzure> I think some of the reeb graph data should be stored in metadata for simple shape information, but not too much 13:13 < kanzure> the full model shouldn't belong in metadata 13:13 < fenn> "constraints" is just so generic that there's a lot of detail to be written out 13:13 < kanzure> tolerances and constraints perhaps. 13:13 < kanzure> what do you mean? 13:13 < fenn> i mean that's where the work is 13:13 < kanzure> show me. 13:13 < fenn> saying "satisfy all constraints" is the easy part 13:13 < kanzure> what type of constraints are you imagining? 13:14 < fenn> geometry, protocol, physical quantities 13:14 < fenn> chemistry and ergonomics 13:14 < kanzure> ergonomics? 13:14 < kanzure> blah. how do you figure that? 13:14 < fenn> (ergonomics is kinematics + some kind of pressure simulation) 13:15 < fenn> we'll have to make a model of human kinematics 13:15 < kanzure> oh, I thought ergonomics was more like yoga+"what the customer feels like at the moment" 13:15 * kanzure points out his previous work on the tendon and muscle movements of the human hand 13:15 < fenn> style? 13:15 < kanzure> (or at least the writeup I did on that subject) 13:15 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15 < kanzure> yes, 'style' crap 13:15 < fenn> style matching could be useful 13:15 < kanzure> 'chinese zen' incompatible with 'postmodernism' 13:16 < fenn> don't discard the "what's it all for" aspect of engineering 13:16 < fenn> by some analyses, the end-product of all civilization is poop 13:16 < fenn> or waste heat 13:16 < kanzure> so I don't know if I like the idea of shoving as many evaluation functions as you like into the constraints/tolerances category 13:17 < kanzure> basically whoever packages up modelA makes up (or chooses) a constraint to apply to a certain part of the part 13:17 < fenn> tolerance is just a geometrical constraint; constraint is the more generic term 13:17 < kanzure> and then must provide an evaluation engine for whether or not that constraint is satisfied 13:17 < kanzure> what if two SKDB packages disagree on the evaluation engine for a certain constraint? 13:18 < kanzure> modelA uses evaluation engine #1, modelB uses evaluation engine #2 13:18 < kanzure> according to #1, modelB is satsified, but according to #2, the constraints are not 13:18 < fenn> you bring this argument up every time 13:18 < kanzure> oh really? 13:18 < fenn> 'how to not put a gun to everyone's head' 13:18 < fenn> there's no answer 13:18 < fenn> people are going to have to learn how to cooperate 13:19 < kanzure> if it's just an issue of mathematics and whether or not values fall within certain numerical bounds, that's a different story 13:19 < kanzure> and an easier one 13:19 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:19 < fenn> it always boils down to mathematics 13:19 < fenn> mathematics + arbitrary choices + different notation syntax 13:20 < kanzure> ok, maybe we'll have a constraint-maker-wizard thingy to help flush out the set of constraints for different regions of a model in a SKDB package? 13:20 < kanzure> I need to go wait around for a bus. 13:20 < fenn> enjoy the weather 13:21 < kanzure> and then to go sign contracts to get an apartment I can't afford 13:21 < fenn> why are you doing that? 13:22 < kanzure> mom's paying 13:22 < fenn> oh now i remembered the shape generator stuff is called "synchronous technology" 13:23 < fenn> anyway their explanation sucks so dont bother reading about it 13:26 < fenn> cross out any parts of the lease you dont like 13:27 < drazak> kanzure: hey 13:27 < drazak> kanzure: did you see the post on making a lab on a chip for seperating proteins and rna? 13:27 < fenn> i saw it.. something about nano knives 13:28 < drazak> kanzure: IMO you could do it with a charge filter, RNA ought to have a charge, unless I'm mistaken 13:28 < drazak> fenn: bah, just introduce some chaps into it 13:28 < fenn> chaps? 13:28 < drazak> fenn: unless he's looking for a reagentless solutions 13:28 < drazak> it's a weak zwitterion detergent 13:28 < fenn> what's a chap? 13:29 < drazak> It'll lyse the cells but ought to leave RNA and proteins ok 13:30 < drazak> You ought to be able to polymerise the chaps with your substrate, giving you a sort of 'nanoknife' 13:30 < drazak> I've actually been thinking about that a lot 13:30 < drazak> anyway, afk, up to the darkroom 14:05 < willPow3r> http://www.jneuroengrehab.com/content/6/1/7 16:02 < fenn> i just realized i could buy a bike on ebay 16:02 < bkero> Craigslist usually gives me better results 16:06 < fenn> best i can find is a magenta 1980's raleigh for $230, 45 minutes away 16:06 < fenn> for that much i can get this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2010-ALUMINUM-ROAD-RACING-BIKE-SHIMANO-WARRANTY_W0QQitemZ150335490106QQ 16:06 < fenn> used bikes are really in demand here for some reason 16:13 < fenn> huh. that guy is in austin 16:14 < fenn> talk about a coincidence 16:14 * fenn checks under the computer for gremlins 16:29 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 16:29 < ybit> kanzure: what are the files in 3000FCGs_complete? 16:37 < ybit> what program uses them iow 16:37 < ybit> or made the output files 16:42 < fenn> it's for graphsynth 16:42 < fenn> .NET monstrosity 16:43 < fenn> well, maybe "monstrosity" is a bit harsh.. but it's no `configure && make` 16:43 < ybit> ah 16:43 < ybit> where's the triangle software? 16:43 < fenn> dunno what that is 16:44 < ybit> [Wed Apr 1 2009] [08:58:27] before I forget, can somebody yell at me if I don'ttype up some stuff on my server about using elmerfem+gmsh+freefempp+gerris+netgen+tetgen+triangle, and another thingy about R or whatever it is that I'm doing with it 16:44 < ybit> there's your reminder kanzure :P 16:44 < ybit> i've got everything else 16:44 < fenn> probably gnu triangulation library 16:45 < fenn> gts.sf.net 16:56 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@c-76-118-182-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:03 < kanzure> heh 17:03 < kanzure> 'triangle' is a program called 'triangle', it's not gts.sf.net 17:04 < kanzure> ybit: 3000CFGs_complete is graphsynth .xml, .dsm, .txt and a few other things. Not included are the original seed graphs for the 3 different problems that were being solved. 17:05 < kanzure> the .xml files are possible solutions to the 3 problems. The .dsm files represent a 138-by-138 grid where each digit represents how many connections exist in the design between thingy[i][j] 17:05 < kanzure> the stuff in new/ represents a 1000x1000 matrix of the distances between all of the different solution candidates 17:05 < kanzure> and in new2/ there is the same data but with a sort done to capture the 50 most different, and also show it as it ran through gnuplot plus those resulting png files. 17:06 < kanzure> drazak: I was the one who wrote the post on separating proteins and rna, I think. 17:06 < kanzure> so I'm pretty sure I saw it :) 17:06 < drazak> yeah 17:06 < drazak> Dunno 17:06 < drazak> I was just thinking about it 17:09 < ybit> kanzure: you have a link to the triangle program? 17:10 < kanzure> one moment 17:10 < kanzure> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~quake/triangle.html 17:10 < kanzure> "Delaunay/Voronosi triangulator" 17:11 < kanzure> hah, when I searched my bookmarks for that, I found it in my CFD folder but also under superkuh's engineering folder 17:11 < kanzure> yay for going in circles 17:13 < kanzure> fenn: please rant about an appropriate 'constraint expression evaluation' module. 17:14 < kanzure> fenn: also, I was also talking about something when you told me that the first link I gave was only an abstract, but you never went back to reply to my messages (re: some value of "p") 17:14 * fenn scrolls back 17:14 < kanzure> is it still called scrolling if you use the page-up/down buttons? 17:15 < drazak> yes 17:15 < kanzure> oh. 17:18 < fenn> i don't think just setting a distance parameter will magically find the features 17:18 < fenn> you have to manually set that each time 17:18 < kanzure> set what? 17:18 < fenn> the distance parameter 17:19 < kanzure> no, that thing about "some value p" was more about a way to threshold the mu function (which solves the geodesic distances from that vertex/pt to all other points, total sum of) 17:20 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@c-76-118-182-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:21 < fenn> yeah i know 17:23 < kanzure> that's not supposed to find the features. 17:23 < kanzure> it's after that you then consider the boundaries between the thresholded regions 17:24 < kanzure> and then you split that up into the meeb graph 17:24 < kanzure> reeb 17:24 < kanzure> meeb, heh. 17:24 -!- IrcNetMgmt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:25 -!- IrcNetMgmt is now known as anthonyl 17:35 < kanzure> you split the boundaries into the nodes in the meeb graph. 17:42 < kanzure> http://www-evasion.imag.fr/Publications/2007/AHLD07/ harmonic skeleton generation in blender 18:06 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/An%20algorithm%20for%203D%20shape%20matching%20using%20spherical%20sectioning.pdf 18:06 < kanzure> spherical histograms? any thoughts? 18:09 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-192.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:20 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41 < fenn> i dont get it 18:44 -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:49 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:02 -!- anthonyl [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:07 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-192.public.utexas.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 19:41 -!- any99109437 is now known as katsmeow 19:52 < kanzure> it's a way of drawing histograms to represent vertices or something 20:19 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 20:45 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Web-based%20modular%20interface%20geometries%20with%20constraints%20in%20assembly%20models%20-%20products%20interface%20geometries%20table.pdf 20:47 < kanzure> I wonder what that paper is going on about 20:47 < kanzure> I'm not sure if it's insightful or just bad english 20:57 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:05 -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25 < kanzure> Can anyone find "An assembly recognition algorithm for automatic tolerancing" ? 23:01 < kanzure> fenn: did you badmouth this before? http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Port-compatibility%20and%20connectability%20based%20assembly%20design.pdf 23:01 < kanzure> just wondering, because I can't recall what's wrong with it. 23:06 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-92-192.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap