--- Day changed Mon Apr 13 2009
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00:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bibliographies/mania.bib
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00:57 < kanzure> Production of offspring from a germline stem cell line derived from neonatal ovaries http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Production%20of%20offspring%20from%20a%20germline%20stem%20cell%20line%20derived%20from%20neonatal%20ovaries.pdf
00:58 < kanzure> "
00:58 < kanzure> It has been controversial whether female germline stem cells (FGSCs) are present in postnatal mammalian ovaries. Cells from a line derived from FGSCs isolated from adult mice that were transplanted into ovaries of infertile animals underwent oogenesis and generated offspring."
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01:55 < kanzure-> argh
01:55 < kanzure-> wtf tito, wtf.
01:55 < genehacker> huh?
01:55 < kanzure-> so now he's sending emails out to all of the regional diybio lists (but not the main diybio list) trying to set up a new forum for diybio
01:55 < kanzure-> something's seriously wrong with these people
01:56 < genehacker> OH yeah working on writing up a DNA synthesizer project proposal for diybio
01:56 < kanzure-> what type of DNA synthesizer?
01:56 < genehacker> to actually give us some direction other than LET'S MAKE ECOLI THAT GLOWS
01:56 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_synthesis
01:56 < genehacker> maskless lithography DNA synthesizer
01:56 < kanzure-> how would that work?
01:57 < genehacker> so we can synthesize genomes the size of mycoplasma gentalium 
01:57 < genehacker> or however the fuck it is pronounced
01:58 < kanzure-> so how would you do that?
01:58 < kanzure-> DMD microarrays are not exactly DIY-friendly
01:58 < genehacker> we don't use DMD microarrays
01:58 < genehacker> we use a 128x128 black and white lcd screen
01:59 < kanzure-> maybe I'm not seeing how this works
01:59 < kanzure-> those pixels aren't exactly the size of oligonucleotides
01:59 < kanzure-> or nucleotides for that matter
01:59 < genehacker> yeah so?
02:00 < genehacker> I don't think you understand
02:00 < kanzure-> oh, maybe there are certain light-directed DNA synthesis methods
02:00 < genehacker> do you understand what a photolabile protecting group is?
02:01 < genehacker> that diagram explains it all
02:01 < kanzure-> phosphoramidite oligonucleotide/DNA synthesis doesn't involve photlabile protecting groups
02:01 < kanzure-> *photolabile
02:01 < genehacker> that diagram explains it all
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02:02 < genehacker> take off the protecting group put down one nucleotide
02:02 < genehacker> nucleotide gets added where photolabile group was removed by light
02:02 < kanzure-> what diagram?
02:02 < genehacker> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_synthesis
02:02 < genehacker> the maskless array diagram
02:02 < kanzure-> oh heh'
02:03 < genehacker> we can just use an LCD screen from a cellphone
02:03 < kanzure-> so, when you remove a photolabile group via light, how do you make sure that a specific nucleotide is added, rather than one of the other three nucleotides?
02:04 < genehacker> a 128x128 display would give us a very long genome
02:04 < genehacker> by adding one at a time kanzure
02:04 < genehacker> add one wash it off
02:04 < kanzure-> how do you isolate a single nucleotide?
02:04 < kanzure-> oh, okay
02:04 < kanzure-> a wash step is involved?
02:04 < genehacker> put on photolabile in next step
02:04 < genehacker> I think so
02:05 < genehacker> how else would you do it?
02:05 < genehacker> What I want to do though is to figure out how to get the DNA off the chip so you can use overlap extension PCR to compile a genome
02:05 < genehacker> oh OE pcr and annealing
02:06 < genehacker> if we can do this we've done something rather disruptive
02:06 < genehacker> and I'll admit rather scary
02:06 < genehacker> but scary things are cool
02:06 < kanzure-> so I'm sure you'll like this
02:06 < kanzure-> jonathan cline, don't know if you've met him yet, sent me a paper the other day
02:07 < kanzure-> for microfluidic PCR- there's a lot of microfluidic PCR papers out there
02:07 < kanzure-> but in particular this one was on a rectangular workspace
02:07 < kanzure-> and at the corners of this workspace were heating/cooling elements
02:07 < kanzure-> and in the center was a spiral microchannel
02:07 < genehacker> LINK?
02:07 < kanzure-> so that the reactants travel through the spiral and get heated/cooled in tune to the PCR protocol
02:07 < kanzure-> one moment.
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02:08 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/gkm389%20Miniaturized%20PCR%20chips%20for%20nucleic%20acid%20amplification%20and%20analysislatest%20advances%20and%20future%20trends.pdf
02:08 < kanzure-> There you go.
02:08 < genehacker> oh PCR
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02:08 < kanzure-> yes
02:09 < genehacker> that's not as fun or scary as DNA synthesis
02:09 < kanzure-> right
02:09 < kanzure-> oh, btw
02:09 < genehacker> the cool thing though about having your own DNA synthesizer is that you could use it to test for diseases too
02:09 < kanzure-> there was also a laser/LED-microvalve paper that I found recently.
02:10 < kanzure-> erm, except it was valveless
02:10 < genehacker> that used UV light to cause some exotic chemical to depolymerize right?
02:10 < kanzure-> something about ultrasonic cavitation and tens of millions of degrees :)
02:10 < kanzure-> no, not an exotic chemical
02:10 < kanzure-> just water, etc.
02:10 < genehacker> hmmm
02:11 < genehacker> cool
02:11 < genehacker> UV light and cavitation?
02:11 < kanzure-> I think it was 808 nm, so infrared
02:12 < genehacker> how many mw?
02:12 < kanzure-> "effectively 700 MW/m^2" or something ridiculous like that
02:12 < kanzure-> one moment
02:12 < genehacker> if 100-200mw you can get a laser like that on ebay
02:12 < genehacker> oh that's not too crazy kanzure
02:12 < genehacker> that isn't very ridiculous
02:13 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Diode%20laser%20generated%20ultrasound%20for%20human%20blood%20cell%20lysis.pdf
02:13 < kanzure-> MW, not mW
02:13 < genehacker> that's per meter squared
02:13 < kanzure-> yes
02:13 < genehacker> laser dots can be tiny
02:13 < kanzure-> ref 1 from that paper: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Whole%20Blood%20Pumped%20by%20Laser%20Driven%20Micropump.pdf
02:13 < kanzure-> 808 nm, 500 mW 
02:14 < genehacker> sounds like an ebay hair-removal laser should do the trick
02:14 < genehacker> well I must go
02:14 < genehacker> I've got some work to do
02:15 < genehacker> been feeling sick all day, you don't think you could make a sharpie lab on a chip so I can know my enemy?
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02:15 < genehacker> well AFK
02:16 < kanzure-> sorry, at the moment I don't have a DNA sequencer on a chip.
02:16 < kanzure-> or bacteriophage RNA decoder thingy
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02:31 < kanzure-> say, this doesn't look bad
02:31 < kanzure-> "Electrochemically directed synthesis of oligonucleotides for DNA microarray fabrication"
02:31 < kanzure-> "Acid is delivered to specific regions on a glass slide, thus allowing nucleotide addition only at chosen sites. The acid is produced by electrochemical oxidation controlled by an array of independent microelectrodes."
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02:35 < kanzure-> heh, PDMS stamping for DNA synthesis
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02:55 < kanzure-> "by rolling the patterned tape past the UV LED, a light-show is played out on the microarray surface in real time"
02:58 < faceface> kanzure-: link?
03:05 < kanzure-> faceface: sorry, that's from my brain
03:05 < kanzure-> doesn't exist yet :)
03:05 < kanzure-> also, what is 3D gel electrophoresis good for?
03:06 < faceface> kanzure-: that is for separating protins... oh wait... 
03:06 < faceface> what is the 3rd D?
03:07 < faceface> in 2D its mass then charge (or charge then mass, I forget)
03:07 < faceface> kanzure-: do you have a link for the lazer synthesis of affy chips?
03:07 < faceface> I heard about it... I'll just google
03:07 < kanzure-> affymatrix chips? no, I don't remember seeing anything like that
03:07 < faceface> or oligo chips... perhaps it wasn't affy (sorry)
03:08 < faceface> because I remember you guys were talking about lazer (wavelength) guided DNA synthesis
03:09 < kanzure-> just uploaded: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bibliographies/DIY-DNA-synth.bib
03:09 < kanzure-> bibliography of techniques for DNA synthesis that are possibly useful to anybody interested in DIY
03:10 < faceface> why is my desktop so broken?
03:10 < faceface> sorry, its just ff
03:22 < faceface> kanzure-: this is what I was on about http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/emrw/9780471142706/cp/cpnc/article/nc1205/current/abstract
03:22 < faceface>  DNA Microarray Preparation by Light-Controlled In Situ Synthesis
03:24 < faceface> recent ff update... seems it can't load a page and do anything else at teh same time
03:24 < faceface> ff is so crappy
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07:31 < kanzure> fenn: wtf?
07:31 < kanzure> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/pythonocc/trunk/src/SWIG_src_modular_linux_darwin/?dir_pagestart=50
07:31 < kanzure> Jelle claims that the files were in the folder..
07:56 < kanzure> so .. why is the "Make Magazine" logo a blue background with a hammer silhouette? When was the last time you honestly had to use a hammer in any Make Magazine project?
08:05 < kanzure> when I was 11 or 12 years old, I used to run a lot of different forums, and later I learned how much of a sign of immaturity it was to run around to different forums advertizing how you're going to split the community and start a new and better forum :/
08:05 < kanzure> especially just for medium-changes
08:06 < kanzure> but I'm not sure how to transfer that knowledge to others
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09:06 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Controlled%20deposition%20of%20picoliter%20amounts%20of%20fluid%20using%20an%20ultrasonically%20driven%20micropipette.pdf 
09:06 < kanzure-> Controlled deposition of picoliter amounts of fluid using an ultrasonically driven micropipette
09:07 < kanzure-> yay
09:07 < kanzure-> although obvious :)
09:35 < kanzure-> hm, all the way from 2003? "Development of Photolithography System with Liquid Crystal Device as Active Mask for Synthesizing DNA Chips."
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09:43 < cis-action> hey
09:47 < kanzure-> hey
09:47 < kanzure-> "electro-optical adaptive phase plate" (OALV) <- seems to be the codeword that was being used for that
09:47 < kanzure-> cis-action: what's up?
09:48 < cis-action> 1. Nils from Monitor 360 emailed the list a while ago about DNA synthesis info.  Have you chatted with him?
09:49 < kanzure-> Yes, we talked over the phone a few months ago.
09:49 < kanzure-> but I don't remember his email about DNA synthesis
09:50 < cis-action> Hmm, I can't seem to find it.
09:50 < cis-action> Oh well.
09:51 < cis-action> 2. I agree in general with you about the forum idea
09:52 < kanzure-> hrm, I wonder why these phase plates are called "light valves"
09:52 < cis-action> I ended up talking to tito last night.  I think he's starting to feel concerned people who live in areas with regional groups are more likely to post to the regional group instead of the main list.  Somehow making a single "regional group" forum room will solve the problem for him.
09:53 < kanzure-> meh
09:53 < kanzure-> you guys are starting to seem really disorganized
09:53 < kanzure-> people going behind each other's backs etc.
09:53 < kanzure-> just saying :/
09:54 < cis-action> "you guys"
09:55 < cis-action> interesting
09:55 < kanzure-> by "you guys" I mean everyone who's not me
09:55 < kanzure-> :p
09:55 < kanzure-> actually I mean everyone who has been suggesting some really bad ideas recently, but whatever, as long as someone other than me is recognizing it
09:56 < kanzure-> "liquid crystal spatial light modulator" hm
09:58 < kanzure-> cis-action: what are you going to do if tito makes the forum or something?
09:58 < kanzure-> just wondering
09:59 < cis-action> well, about two weeks ago jason installed vanilla forums at diybio.org/forums
09:59 < kanzure-> right
09:59 < cis-action> and I guess tito is going to try and convince local conversations to occur there
09:59 < kanzure-> I sent an email suggesting some plugins to install
09:59 < kanzure-> I don't know if anyone read it
09:59 < kanzure-> but basically the summary is that it's a terrible idea, unless you maybe include a mail-to-forum gateway or something
09:59 < kanzure-> so that messages are passed back and forth
10:00 < kanzure-> because you aren't going to get people to migrate from the mailing list to the forums, or something
10:00 < cis-action> yeah, only like 20-50%?
10:01 < kanzure-> dunno
10:01 < ybit> i can't recall which email and when, but someone on the open manufacturing mentioned "the irc channel", i'm guessing it's this one?
10:01 < kanzure-> ybit: I don't know, I don't remember that individual
10:01 < kanzure-> it was on OM, recently, yes
10:01 < kanzure-> erm. I mean to say I don't know which IRC channel he was referencing because I don't remember him
10:03 < kanzure-> gee, I don't know of any spatial light modulator (SLM) more readily-available than an LCD..
10:03 < ybit> [Open Manufacturing] [OFF-Topic] High-Performance Computation :: from Marcos :: "Hello people, as I may have already mentioned (in the IRC channel, a few months ago)"
10:03 < kanzure-> right
10:03 < kanzure-> I don't remember a Marcos though :/
10:04 < kanzure-> so the LCD methods involve these huge optical lenses that are the size of monolithic desktop towers
10:04 < kanzure-> that's not going to be good..
10:05 < kanzure-> cis-action: so, can you give me any more details on onsingularity for later today? do you know anything about what they might ask?
10:06 < cis-action> kanzure: aaron emailed us the questions
10:06 < kanzure-> okay, thank you
10:06 < kanzure-> oohh.. optical logic gates via stacking LCDs together
10:10 < kanzure-> oh I see the email
10:11 < kanzure-> excellent set of questions.
10:11 < cis-action> great
10:11 < cis-action> well, I'm going to be up and running at 2:00pm at the latest
10:13  * kanzure- just updated the DIY-DNA-synth.bib file
10:13 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bibliographies/DIY-DNA-synth.bib
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10:13 < kanzure-> in particular I've added some references that might help with DNA synthesis via LCDs
10:14 < kanzure-> (think: cellphones in third world countries?)
10:14 < cis-action> Ok, I've summarized my thoughts re. tito
10:14 < cis-action> Problem: I think Tito has correctly noticed the beginnings of some regional exclusivity on the lists, (I think the DIYbio-London group alarmed him with their discussions about their Dough project). Conclusion:  I think this is starting to happen because regional lists provide a better sense of community to the local members than does the global diybio list, so over time more and more conversations happen i
10:15 < cis-action> I'm mostly interested in soliciting the relative experts that exist on iGEM teams - students and PhDs and instructors - and bringing their technical questions out in the open on a mailing list or forum somewhere.  The existing moderated iGEM mailing list - for some reason - does not accomplish this and I'm confident that there has been consistent demand in the iGEM community over the last 5 years for a pla
10:15 < kanzure-> to be honest, I'm okay with regional lists for organizational issues like setting up playdates
10:15 < kanzure-> that seems fine to me
10:15 < kanzure-> cis-action: in your first message, there is cutoff at "and more conservation i----"
10:16 < kanzure-> and in the second, "5 years for a pla-"
10:16 < cis-action> yeah, but I think there is inevitable social pressure to discuss community matters solely on the list
10:16 < cis-action> oh
10:16 < cis-action> ok
10:16 < kanzure-> I liked it back when people talked about projects and ideas on the main list
10:16 < cis-action> http://pastebin.com/d61d0771b
10:16 < kanzure-> and then went to their separate mailing lists for organizational issues like who's going to bring the pizza :)
10:17 < kanzure-> I think the main diybio list is an ok place for 'dumb questions'
10:17 < cis-action> right, but I don't think there is a very strong sense of community on the main list, and hence people start to move their discussion to the regional groups, which somehow do end up with a stronger sense
10:17 < cis-action> kanzure: I think so too, but see my point re; branding
10:18 < kanzure-> odd, I feel strong community on the main list- what do you mean?
10:19 < kanzure-> so about "experts"
10:19 < cis-action> kanzure: I think we would be increasing the participation barrier for most igemmers if we had to not only convince them to join an online forum/list, but also explain why it's called diybio
10:19 < kanzure-> well that's the thing
10:19 < kanzure-> these are "experts" in academic labs
10:19 < kanzure-> in their domain they are indeed experts and know how to operate their commercial machinery and so on
10:19 < cis-action> "relative experts"
10:20 < kanzure-> right
10:20 < kanzure-> so relative to what? not really the DIY aspects
10:20 < kanzure-> I agree that it's nice to have these folks around to offer advice and so on
10:20 < cis-action> this is The Truth: the average iGEM student knows more and has done more molecular biology than the average DIYbio list member
10:21 < kanzure-> eh, that's arguable.. I mean, they know it within the context of "here's a lab handed to you"
10:21 < kanzure-> but maybe DIYbio will involve different techniques because of the different constraints on acquiring materials, tools etc.?
10:21 < cis-action> sure they will
10:21 < kanzure-> the end result of diybio isn't necessarily going to look like iGEM
10:21  * cis-action agreed
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10:21 < kanzure-> Hi amaruk.
10:22 < cis-action> "I agree that it's nice to have these folks around to offer advice and so on" - they are not around.  I am trying to figure out the best way to incent them to be around.
10:22 < amaruk> hi kanzure and all other persons online
10:22 < kanzure-> maybe they just aren't interested in DIY?
10:23 < kanzure-> ok, so let's think of it this way
10:24 < kanzure-> erm, what I mean is that you shouldn't try to force diybio into something that would appeal to those people, even though it's nothing about DIY
10:25 < cis-action> sure
10:25 < cis-action> What makes you think I'm forcing diybio to be anything at all?
10:25 < cis-action> I'm talking about something explicitly different from the diybio banner
10:25 < kanzure-> you most commonly post about igem and biobricks more than anything
10:26 < kanzure-> well, what about it?
10:26 < cis-action> please see http://pastebin.com/d61d0771b
10:26 < kanzure-> I've read it
10:27 < kanzure-> I don't know what we're talking about
10:28 < cis-action> ok, let's stop then.
10:28 < kanzure-> heh
10:28 < kanzure-> do you think that you would somehow siphon people from an iGem-community-interest community back into diybio?
10:31 < cis-action> I think there would be some kind of equilibrium between the two, including the possibility of a person being in both groups at once.  But I don't care about that too much - my goal isn't primarily diybio outreach.  It's the development of a place full of technically relevant information and people who know a lot more.
10:32 < kanzure-> may I ask why you have that goal?
10:34 < kanzure-> huh. gelatin has been used for microfabrication via visible color wavelength photolithography
10:36 < cis-action> Because I think the primary disadvantage for non-traditional scientists is access, formally and informally, to a group of technically and/or theoretically knowledgeable peers
10:45 < kanzure-> what's the largest LCD on the market in terms of meters?
10:48 < kanzure-> wait. what was that paper about a microlens array for an LED cap?
10:48 -!- any77769791 is now known as katsmeow
10:48 < kanzure-> huh. integration of light source and photomask into a single super-uber-hacked LED
10:49 < kanzure-> "matrix addressable microemitters"
10:51 < kanzure-> oh, wait. two different things there. one is uber-tiny LEDs, the other is the idea of addressing regions of the LED color-cap.
10:53 < kanzure-> I wonder if a drop of water is an effective microlense for microemitter/micro-LEDs
11:00 < katsmeow> glycerin?
11:01 < kanzure-> heh heh
11:01 < kanzure-> looks like I already found a good way to fabricate a microemitter array
11:01 < kanzure-> in /books/papers/microfluidics/ there's a paper about using capillary action to let a polymer go through some microchannels to form a circuit for organic microLEDs
11:02 < kanzure-> but then it uses vacuum deposition for the aluminum electrodes :( don't know how to get around at the moment
11:02 < katsmeow> hmm,, two microgrooved faced plates, face to face at 90 degrees,  they mix and be useable where the channels cross?
11:03 < kanzure-> whaT?
11:03 < kanzure-> imagine a microchannel fabricated in PDMS by pouring around a piece of hair :p and then removing the hair afterwards or something
11:03 < katsmeow> just thinkingout loud,, i'll think with less typing now....
11:03 < kanzure-> no, it's fine
11:03 < kanzure-> was just wondering what you meant
11:04 < katsmeow> oh, how to get microdots in a grid
11:04 < kanzure-> more or less
11:04 < kanzure-> so what I was thinking about originally was photolithography for DNA synthesis
11:04 < kanzure-> LCDs are one method to do this- but you need some optical lenses to make everything work just right
11:04 < kanzure-> another way to do this would be a micro-array of LEDs
11:05 < kanzure-> so I'm looking into micro-emitter/LED fabrication methods- 
11:05 < katsmeow> if the material in the groove was also conductive, but photily active only where they crossed, and only in one direction, then you get dots of lite, and the grooves themselves are your x-y address lines
11:05 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Patterning%20polymer%20LEDs%20by%20micromolding%20in%20capillary%20at%201e-6%20torr.pdf
11:06 < kanzure-> huh? an addressing scheme? but what if you wanted to have many of them on at once?
11:06 < kanzure-> I don't think it would be too hard to come up with an addressing-matrix-circuit-stuff
11:06 < katsmeow> persiatance of vision
11:06 < kanzure-> I mean, it sucks to design those sorts of circuits, but.
11:06 < kanzure-> oh
11:06 < katsmeow> or phosphors
11:06 < kanzure-> yeah, I guess it doesn't have to be active for too long
11:06 < kanzure-> if there's a ridiculously fast switching time, who cares? :)
11:07 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Patterning%20photo-curable%20light-emitting%20organic%20composites%20by%20vertical%20and%20horizontal%20capillarity%20-%20a%20general%20route%20to%20photonic%20nanostructures.pdf
11:07 < katsmeow> erg
11:08 < kanzure-> ugauga?
11:08 < katsmeow> nah, can't get the flash videos from http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/yourfriendatom.html
11:08 < kanzure-> but that's because flash sucks
11:09  * katsmeow nods
11:09 < kanzure-> any ideas on a completely polymer-based LED? or something
11:09 < katsmeow> most humans online now don't *remember* the civilian uses proposed for nukes back then, and don't have the same sense of horror at the thought they'd actually go thru with them
11:09 < kanzure-> because that micromolding paper is great, but the electrodes are placed by vacuum deposition
11:10 < katsmeow> no, other than make it possible before we run out of the raw materials for making such
11:10 < kanzure-> is Project Orion (atom bomb propulsion) civilian?
11:10 < katsmeow> yeas,, well, NASA
11:10 < katsmeow> the *current* Orion project is not nuke-based, it's just huge
11:11 < katsmeow> the *current* Orion is a oversides Apollo 
11:12 < kanzure-> yeah I know
11:12 < katsmeow> there is still some thought tomerging the *old* Orio with the big gun approach, so the nuke fire underground to acchieve escape velocity at the surface,, still no way to prevent fissile product emmisions
11:12 < kanzure-> haven't they ever heard of namespace conflicts
11:13 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-174-135.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
11:19 < kanzure-> http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/08/sonys-1-000-000-1-contrast-ratio-27-inch-oled-hdtv/
11:21 < katsmeow> i hear the blue in oled still fades out in a few yrs?
11:24 < kanzure-> hm. what's the problem with OLEDs again?
11:25 < kanzure-> there was some particular reason why they weren't catching on or something
11:25 < kanzure-> I want to be sure me trying to manufacture OLEDs isn't going to be some silly-impossible Don Quixote quest
11:26 < kanzure-> "Indium tin oxide is commonly used as the anode material. It is transparent to visible light and has a high work function which promotes injection of holes into the polymer layer. Metals such as aluminium and calcium are often used for the cathode as they have low work functions which promote injection of electrons into the polymer layer."
11:27 < kanzure-> "The production of small-molecule displays often involves vacuum deposition, which makes the production process more expensive than other processing techniques (see below)."
11:27 < katsmeow> Indium was one of the materials suggested to run out with mass production of silicon pv panels
11:27 < kanzure-> "Recently a hybrid light-emitting layer has been developed that uses nonconductive polymers doped with light-emitting, conductive molecules. The polymer is used for its production and mechanical advantages without worrying about optical properties. The small molecules then emit the light and have the same longevity that they have in the SM-OLEDs."
11:27 < kanzure-> oh yay. that doesn't sound good at all, katsmeow 
11:27  * katsmeow nods
11:28 < kanzure-> "electroluminscent conductive polymer"
11:28 < kanzure-> hm, polyfluorene
11:29 < kanzure-> or light-emitting polymers
11:33 < kanzure-> can anyone get me this paper? "Ink-jet-printable phosphorescent organic light-emitting-diode devices"
11:33 < kanzure-> http://dx.doi.org/10.1889/JSID16.12.1229
11:34 < katsmeow> can you register the led over the previously printed electronics with a printhead, at a interestingly small scale?
11:38 < kanzure-> that would be neat.
11:38 < kanzure-> but first I need to get the paper :p
11:45 < katsmeow> damned forking nosey .gov sites,, no way to dl the pdf on http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cover.jsp;jsessionid=14FFB880A12A936C587B0CD04CAC717F?purl=/408695-xwEMy7/webviewable/  without making up a new http header that tells them what they want to know, and i dunno what it is they want to know
11:46 < kanzure-> ok, here's a late 90s paper for 250 micron diameter OLEDs
11:47 < kanzure-> using PVK, indium tin oxide, and a reflecting cathode
11:47 < kanzure-> hrm. still using indium tin oxide. blah.
11:55 < faceface> kanzure-: that DOI url just says 'OK' in links
11:56 < faceface> Ink-jet-printable phosphorescent organic light-emitting-diode devices - what is the pdf called
11:56 < faceface> ?
11:58 < kanzure-> I don't know what the PDF is called :(
11:58 < kanzure-> that's the title of the paper
11:58 < katsmeow> so i switched to IE to dl that pdf from the .gov site, and locked up IE AND firefox AND the desktop display
11:58 < faceface> I just moved all my pdfs...
11:58 < faceface> nothing new turns up
11:58 < kanzure-> katsmeow: need some help?
11:58 < kanzure-> faceface: what?
11:59 < katsmeow> i taskmaster'd the IE session to death, i'm ok
11:59 < faceface> lynx here says 'buy the pdf', links from an inst just says 'OK' I wondered if a pdf had appeared
11:59 < faceface> wget on the DOI does weird things..
12:00 < kanzure-> faceface: yeah, that's why I can't find the PDF :)
12:00 < katsmeow> yeas, wget doesn't half work anyhow, --keep-session-cookies isn't defined anywhere cept the help file :-/
12:01 < katsmeow> neither does  restrict directories
12:01 < katsmeow> i run wget thru a proxy i can better configure
12:01 < katsmeow> that way i can change things as wget is running  too :-)
12:01 < fenn> indium is not going to run out
12:01 < katsmeow> it was either indiumor iridium
12:02 < fenn> it's the same idiocy that's been applied to uranium by peak oil fearmongers
12:02 < katsmeow> i believe it was indium
12:02 < katsmeow> oh, uranium prolly won't run out, it's just the chinese will have bought it all up
12:02 < fenn> ZOMG we only have 4000 tons of Indium in stock!
12:03 < katsmeow> it wasn't the zero-point running-out that was the problem, it was price increases due to *thinking* it was reare, witness 2008 $150/barrel oil
12:03 < faceface> can't find a url
12:04 < fenn> well that's even worse to fearmonger about then
12:04 < kanzure-> faceface: did you see the AIP URL?
12:04 < faceface> no
12:04 < kanzure-> faceface: http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JSIDE8000016000012001229000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes
12:04 < faceface> No results found for "Ink-jet-printablephosphorescent organic light-emitting-diode devices".
12:04 < kanzure-> check that link :)
12:05 < faceface> links just comes up 'OK'
12:05 < faceface> no idea what that means!
12:05 < kanzure-> hrm
12:05 < kanzure-> what about this? http://dx.doi.org/10.1889/JSID16.12.1229
12:06 < faceface> same
12:06 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk
12:06 < kanzure-> guess you don't have access ..
12:06 < kanzure-> it loads up the abstract for me
12:07 < faceface> ok, you got it now?
12:07 < kanzure-> no
12:07 < kanzure-> I need the paper, not the abstract
12:07 < faceface> /getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=JSIDE800001600001200
12:08 < faceface> 1229000001&idtype=cvips&prog=normal
12:08 < faceface> where is that relative to do you think?
12:08 < kanzure-> dunno :(
12:08 < faceface> i.e. where does the doi send you?
12:09 < faceface> http://scitation.aip.org/ ?
12:09 < faceface> lemmy try
12:09 < kanzure-> yeah
12:10 < faceface> takes me to a login page
12:10 < kanzure-> hrm..
12:10 < faceface> 'if you would like to purchase this article...'
12:10 < faceface> 15 dollar
12:10 < faceface> I'll write and tell them my mom only lets me spend 10
12:11 < nsh> email the author
12:11 < kanzure-> gasp! social communication?!
12:11 < nsh> you do far more of it than i :-)
12:11 < faceface> J. Soc. Inf. Display 16, 1229 (2008)
12:12 < kanzure-> nsh: doesn't count, you don't complain about me yapping all the time
12:12  * faceface tries the live chat link through links
12:13 < faceface> why not chat and say... oh I baught this liek one month agoo maaan
12:13 < faceface> fail
12:14 < faceface> well.. this is as close as I can get "http://scitation.aip.org//getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=JSIDE8000016000012001229000001&idtype=cvips&prog=normal" that link may be usefull for someone at a different institute
12:14 < faceface> night
12:17 < kanzure-> night
12:18 < kanzure-> updated DIY-DNA-synth.bib again
12:24 < fenn> given $20/4GB RAM, $25 for 16GB SD card, and $125 for a 30GB SSD, um, why am I supposed to buy the SSD?
12:24 < kanzure-> maybe there's a way to use LCDs without having to use the nasty optics/lense
12:25 < kanzure-> why haven't we seen anybody printing sheets of LEDs with inkjets showing up in Make Magazine and that circle in general?
12:25 < kanzure-> don't these people love LEDs?
12:26 < fenn> because they 1) dont know how to hack an inkjet and 2) don't have the nasty chemicals necessary
12:26 < kanzure-> that's what I keep forgetting about these polymer techs
12:26 < kanzure-> 'nasty' polymers. hrm.
12:26 < kanzure-> should I avoid them?
12:27 < fenn> the LED paper was inorganic
12:27 < kanzure-> did you see the micromolding one? that was an organic polymer IIRC
12:27 < fenn> most semiconductor dopants are toxic heavy metals
12:28 < kanzure-> what about PDOF, PPV, or MEH-PPV? 
12:29 < fenn> i dont even know what those are
12:29 < kanzure-> polymers
12:29 < kanzure-> okay, nevermind
12:29 < kanzure-> if it's not something you know it's probably not all that common
12:31 < fenn> do you know any organic chemists?
12:32 < fenn> heh never thought i'd have trouble looking for an organic chemist
12:32 < fenn> (both parents taught in organic chemistry dept)
12:33 < kanzure-> treadwell
12:33 < kanzure-> oh, so your parents got it on? to the fumes of nasty organic solvents? hehe
12:34 < fenn> yeah and i turned out fine, right? :\
12:34 < kanzure-> yes?
12:35 < fenn> actually they spent more time in offices/computer lab than a real lab
12:36 < fenn> the place still smelled weird though
12:36 < kanzure-> hah
12:36 < fenn> kind of a fresh paint smell everywhere
12:39 < kanzure-> hm. now I'm worried.
12:39 < kanzure-> Hong H Lee / Kuhp have shown up again in my search results
12:39 < kanzure-> this time with a way of doing cathode fabrication via pressing
12:40 < kanzure-> instead of a ridiculously high vacuum
12:40 < kanzure-> which makes sense, this is what some of their other research was working with
12:40 < kanzure-> but it's like an exact solution to my problem :p
12:41 < kanzure-> 20x10 passive OLED matrix
12:41 < fenn> pressing metal foils?
12:41 < fenn> or PDMS printing stuff
12:42 < fenn> what does 'passive' mean?
12:43 < kanzure-> dunno. but there are active/passive LCDs apparently
12:43 < fenn> they're not LCD's
12:43 < kanzure-> um, so apparently they had a protruding pattern on a glass surface
12:43 < kanzure-> right, but I think it's the same wording
12:44 < kanzure-> so then they treat that glass surface with a "self-assembled monolayer (SAM) material, which is followed by the deposition of the cathode materila, such as aluminum, onto the whole surface"
12:44 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9C52A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:44 < fenn> In a passive matrix OLED (PMOLED) display, the diodes are connected in a grid, each diode comprising an individual OLED pixel. The rows of the grid are lit one at a time using external drive circuitry. In contrast, active matrix displays include transistors within the display enabling pixels to be continuously illuminated.
12:45 < kanzure-> so it relies on poor adhesion strength between the metal and SAM
12:45 < kanzure-> and a greater adhesion strength between metal and the polymer
12:45 < fenn> so LCD's have transistors in them already?
12:45 < kanzure-> I heard something like that once, yes
12:45 < fenn> hum i guess that's what TFT means (thin film transistor)
12:47 < kanzure-> ack, so many nasty chemicals
12:49 < fenn> how the hell do they make a fet out of polycrystalline silicon
12:50 < kanzure-> is that the gap?
12:50 < fenn> what gap?
12:51 < kanzure-> don't FETs have a gap over which the field electric effect performs?
12:51 < fenn> the gate insulator?
12:51 < kanzure-> blah
12:52 < fenn> i'd presume the gate is made from ITO or silver
12:56 < kanzure-> so: make a microfluidic circuit that a polymer can capillary-action itself through; this circuit would be the OLED array device thingy; then use cathode contact/pressing to add in the metal cathodes. sounds simple in principle ..
12:57 < fenn> yeah, sure
12:58 < kanzure-> meh.. maybe it'd just be easier to go get that lense to make the LCD method work. /me will need to go look that up
12:59 < fenn> what's the problem with the lens?
12:59 < fenn> you know about water lenses right?
12:59 < kanzure-> it's huge.
13:00 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Versatile%20stepper%20based%20maskless%20microlithography%20using%20a%20liquid%20crystal%20display%20for%20direct%20write%20of%20binary%20and%20multilevel%20microstructures.pdf
13:00 < kanzure-> pg 3
13:00 < fenn> you know your server's upload has been like 10kb for weeks right?
13:01 < kanzure-> um. no?
13:01 < kanzure-> ybit: are you still raping my server?
13:02 < kanzure-> anyway, it's already on the other servers
13:02 < kanzure-> http://sata.serveftp.org/~bryan/papers/microfluidics/Versatile%20stepper%20based%20maskless%20microlithography%20using%20a%20liquid%20crystal%20display%20for%20direct%20write%20of%20binary%20and%20multilevel%20microstructures.pdf
13:05 < fenn> ok, so use a smaller panel
13:06 < kanzure-> I don't know if that would help.
13:07 < kanzure-> what's the condenser for, anyway?
13:07 < kanzure-> oh, reduction lens
13:07 < kanzure-> who cares then?
13:07 < kanzure-> as long as you have something like 100x100 pixels (for starters) that's good enough for a reasonably sized array
13:08 < fenn> the condenser is to collimate the lamp output
13:10 < fenn> fwiw you could probably use an overhead projector
13:11 < kanzure-> ok. now to figure out photolithography methods of dna synthesis
13:11 < kanzure-> before I do something evil (and boot into Windows), do you know of any good webcam software?
13:12 < fenn> for doing what
13:12 < fenn> i've used xawtv but i wouldnt call it 'good'
13:12 < kanzure-> conferencing with onsingularity and mac
13:12 < fenn> ekiga is supposed to work..
13:19 < kanzure-> huh, tokbox.com actually worked (except for the microphone..)
13:19 < cis-action> hey
13:22 -!- kanzure- [n=bryan@66.112.232.249] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
13:42 < bkero> Do any of you remember that 1950s spaceman facebook/twitter/whatever pic that someone posted?
13:42 < bkero> Ahh, yes.  http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_b7Sh_4xAn1I/SabQN3uuX6I/AAAAAAAAAxs/928iWGi7nt8/s1600-h/24w7ed0.jpg
14:03 < kanzure> cis-action: I'm so confused about what just happened
14:03 < kanzure> was that because of my connection or because of their servers?
14:08 < cis-action> who knows
14:09 < cis-action> there were several bad factors
14:09 < cis-action> all of our audio was bad - but your audio was particularly bad
14:11 < kanzure> heh okay
14:12 < kanzure> cis-action: just sent out an email about DIY DNA synthesis again
14:12 < kanzure> hope you like :)
14:14 < kanzure> yay for getarticles, they got my paper :)
14:15 < cis-action> seriously
14:15 < kanzure> hm?
14:16 < cis-action> getarticles is great
14:48 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:49 -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC04FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608]"]
14:58 < kanzure> hah
14:58 < kanzure> can't believe I missed this
14:58 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/How_bryan_wastes_his_time
14:58 < kanzure> (see the line that reads 'edit')
14:59 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-96-53.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
14:59 < genehacker> microlens are easy
15:00 < kanzure> genehacker: fenn suggests they aren't needed for the LCD
15:00 < kanzure> also
15:00 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/AFM_nanolithography
15:00 < kanzure> I totally forgot that I wrote that page
15:00 < genehacker> there is a professor here who does microlenses
15:00 < genehacker> one paper I saw on making microlenses used superglue and a 2d printer to make them
15:03 < kanzure> do you need microlenses?
15:08 < genehacker> no
15:09 < cis-action> brian, why won't dlp chips work for diy synthesis?
15:11 < kanzure> cis-action: the DMD mirrors chips?
15:12 < kanzure> cis-action: those microarrays of mirrors cost a lot of money, and they are not easy to make.
15:14 < genehacker> they will work
15:14 < genehacker> they are just expensive
15:14 < genehacker> but DLP chips are getting cheaper...
15:15 < genehacker> soon there gonna be in phones
15:15 < genehacker> so you can project the phones screen onto a large surface
15:16 < genehacker> or have your phone display holograms if you get 2 dmd chips
15:21 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h8n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:25 < kanzure> Hey splicer.
15:27 < splicer> hi kanzure
15:32 < kanzure> have you been keeping up with my posts to diybio? what do you think of things?
15:33 < kanzure> fenn: you and les might have some contact from a GLXP team that I'm on re: manufacturing of aerospace components
15:35 < splicer> kanzure: haven't read diybio in 2 weeks... going to look at it now
15:36 < kanzure> heh they have funds
15:36 < fenn> the sideways hot air gun people?
15:37 < kanzure> interplanetary ventures
15:37 < kanzure> http://www.interplanetaryventures.org/
15:38 < kanzure> dave wanted his aerospace contracts, right?
15:39 < fenn> hm. dave is an idiot
15:39 < kanzure> eh?
15:39 < kanzure> aerospace contracts don't make one an idiot
15:40 < fenn> it takes more than a CNC machine to do high class work
15:40 < kanzure> heh, "magic super axis CNC machine! go!"
15:42 < fenn> anyway what did interplanetary want?
15:42 < kanzure> one moment, I'm dragging the guy in here
15:43 -!- Hell_Tango [n=chatzill@deimos.jacobs-university.de] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:43 < kanzure> Hello.
15:43 < Hell_Tango> hello
15:44 -!- Hell_Tango is now known as Sean
15:44 < kanzure> so everyone else in here is unfamiliar with IVP
15:44 < kanzure> but is interested in the potential interaction with a fablab etc.
15:44 < Sean> i am sean aka helltango
15:44 < Sean> IPV
15:44 -!- Sean is now known as Guest59250
15:44 < kanzure> yes, IPV
15:44 < Guest59250> not IVP
15:44 < kanzure> sorry
15:44 -!- Guest59250 is now known as Sean_con
15:44 < Sean_con> never mind
15:45 < Sean_con> IPV or interplanetary ventures is a open source team , for space and planetary exploration and development
15:45 < Sean_con> the CEO is kevin e myrick
15:46 < Sean_con> the webpage is http://www.interplanetaryventures.org
15:47 < Sean_con> as our latest project, we are competing in google lunar x prize
15:47 < Sean_con> sponsored by 
15:47 < Sean_con> Interorbital systems
15:47 < Sean_con> and
15:47 < Sean_con> espacetickets
15:48 < Sean_con> however, we are still looking for participants together with whom we can develop our systems
15:49 < kanzure> so I mentioned a fablab project. I guess I haven't gone over open source manufacturing yet either or what we're doing in here
15:50 < kanzure> basically if there's a chance that we can help each other out, that would be worth exploring
15:50 < Sean_con> i guess there is
15:50 < Sean_con> We are interested in collab
15:51 < Sean_con> please ask me questions, if you are interested
15:51 < kanzure> well I was hoping to poke fenn a bit
15:52 < kanzure> since he's been paying more attention to the actual place than I have
15:52 < Sean_con> ok
15:52 < Sean_con> i fenn
15:52 < splicer> kanzure: on diybio; i don't really have opinions on any goings on in the last 2 weeks there. 
15:52 < kanzure> splicer: come on, surely the DIY DNA synthesis is interesting :)
15:52 < splicer> if it works
15:53 < kanzure> well, no, not yet
15:53 < splicer> you're right... it can be cool some day
15:55  * katsmeow-afk listens to pins drop
15:55 < kanzure> hm?
15:55 < kanzure> well I was hoping to make fenn somewhat social but maybe that won't happen
15:55 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
15:56 < kanzure> Sean_con: you might be interested in reading up on some of the projects that we are related to in here
15:56 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/om.html
15:56 < kanzure> in particular the 2nd link for instance
15:56 < kanzure> we're working on an open source hardware package management system, somewhat like "apt-get" or "yum" or "yast" or rpm's except for hardware,
15:57 < kanzure> and ideally integrating it with a fabrication facility for further F/OSH projects.
15:57 < splicer> kanz: ....I have to be antisocial too, have some stuff I have to get done before morning
15:57 < Sean_con> there is no hurry, so no worries
15:57 < Sean_con> yah, i see them
15:57 < kanzure> okay
15:58 < Sean_con> the autonomous exploration is closest to what i am up to
15:59 < Sean_con> from IPV side, i would say, it is possible to collab
15:59 < Sean_con> if you want, i can send a formal collab letter along
15:59 < kanzure> so you mentioned asteroid mining
15:59 < kanzure> do you know various path finding/landing algorithms?
16:00 < fenn> uh, hi. sorry i was distracted by diybio
16:00 < Sean_con> yah
16:00 < kanzure> fenn: heh I already replied to you
16:00 < fenn> you write too much :{
16:00 < kanzure> it's true.
16:01 < Sean_con> i am working on currently more than one open source path fining algorithms for autonomous vehicles
16:02 < kanzure> anything in particular?
16:02 < Sean_con> for instance, autonomous vehicle , guided by it's camera to explore underwater reefs
16:02 < Sean_con> it must not collide with the reef in any chance
16:02 < kanzure> so, OpenCV?
16:03 < Sean_con> openCV? sorry i do not know the term
16:03 < kanzure> it's an open source visual computation package for problems just like that
16:03 < fenn> i'm curious how you define 'open source space development' exactly
16:04 < fenn> for example, do you share your CAD files?
16:04 < fenn> what prevents others from advancing your work and then not releasing the results?
16:04 < Sean_con> do you share your CAD files? - yes
16:05 < Sean_con> what prevents others from advancing your work and then not releasing the results? - IDK, maybe they are lazy
16:05 < kanzure> heh
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16:06 < fenn> seems to me laziness tends to result in people not sharing, because it's too much bother to post something online
16:06 < Sean_con> open source visual computation package for problems just like that - we want our truly customizable package - a couple of Fourier based methods have been tested with partial success only 
16:06 < fenn> but i'm more concerned about patent trolls and unscrupulous chinese factory owners
16:07 < Sean_con> because there is an acute lack of easily recognizable landmark in underwater topography
16:07 < Sean_con> unscrupulous chinese factory owners - i am too
16:08 < Sean_con> so we for example, we release the complete cad files ( available from boris or kevin), but they are marked with -@ intellectual property of ...' stamps
16:08 < Sean_con> so we for example, we release the complete cad files ( available from boris or kevin), but they are marked with - 'intellectual property of ...' stamps
16:09 < fenn> uh, 'intellectual property' is a fictional concept
16:09 < fenn> the only things that are recognized by the law are copyright, patent, and trademark
16:09 < fenn> also there are nondisclosure agreements, but that's part of contract law
16:10 < fenn> asking someone to sign a nondisclosure agreement could theoretically lead to some sort of copyleft for hardware, but it seems difficult
16:10 < fenn> bleh anyway
16:11 < fenn> i've stayed away from space hardware development because the minimum scale is too large for one person to make a dent
16:11 < fenn> at least i don't consider suborbital to be worth doing
16:12 < fenn> there really needs to be an unmanned space station in a reasonable orbit
16:12 < Sean_con> we know
16:12 < fenn> not government owned
16:12 < Sean_con> we are targeting that
16:13 < fenn> commodity electronics, communications and so on
16:13 < Sean_con> but we need developers, who can stick to us, till we achive that stage
16:13 < Sean_con> because the minimum scale is too large for one person to make a dent - same here, seeking help
16:13 < fenn> your page has pictures of nasa and russian vehicles.. what are you working on?
16:14 < Sean_con> space and planetary exploration and development
16:14 < fenn> "photos, videos, and other materials are available upon request" isn't very open source
16:15 < Sean_con> we do not yet have privately funded missions on moon
16:15 < Sean_con> no, that is to save bandwidth actually
16:15 < Sean_con> ;-(
16:15 < fenn> that's a lame excuse
16:15 < Sean_con> well, it's not
16:15 < fenn> flickr, youtube, what's the problem
16:17 < Sean_con> we have youtube and flicker channels
16:17 < Sean_con> wait
16:17 < Sean_con> i give you links
16:17 < wrldpc> ..
16:18 < Sean_con> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOeJ1jRKbZw&feature=channel_page
16:21 < Sean_con> i agree that we are not totally professionals, in the sense, media is kind of disorganized
16:25 < fenn> your bootstrap plan has way too much reliance on humans
16:25 < Sean_con> yes
16:26 < fenn> and you launch everything from the ground.. which costs too much
16:26 < fenn> if an international consortium of governments doesn't have the budget, you sure won't
16:27 < Sean_con> if an international consortium of governments doesn't have the budget, you sure won't
16:27 < fenn> focus on business plans; what are you going to do in space once you're there?
16:27 < Sean_con> and you launch everything from the ground.. which costs too much - no
16:27 < fenn> if you dont know, nobody's going to give you money to develop the concept
16:27 < Sean_con> focus on business plans; what are you going to do in space once you're there? - develop industry
16:28 < fenn> what sort of industry
16:28 < Sean_con> mine asteroids
16:28 < Sean_con> colonize them
16:28 < Sean_con> mine moon
16:28 < Sean_con> we had to start somewhere
16:28 < Sean_con> and we started
16:28 < kanzure> I thought you said you already had funding
16:28 < fenn> alright, well.. you need more detail
16:30 < Sean_con> yes
16:30 < fenn> x-plane only simulates a tiny fraction of what you need to consider
16:30 < Sean_con> we do have funding
16:30 < Sean_con> yes
16:30 < kanzure> O.o
16:30 < Sean_con> thats why we are looking  for developers
16:31 < fenn> honestly i dont see what you're offering that would entice someone to join
16:32 < Sean_con> what you are looking for?
16:33 < fenn> well, either an established (small?) business with extensive contacts with paying clients, an engineer with some solid engineering skills, or an entrepreneur who is good at convincing rich people to throw huge wads of money their way
16:34 < fenn> artemis project at least has a good vision
16:34 < Sean_con> either an established (small?) business with extensive contacts with paying clients - we are a non profit org
16:34 < Sean_con> an engineer with some solid engineering skills - look at the team portofolio
16:35 < Sean_con> or an entrepreneur who is good at convincing rich people to throw huge wads of money their way - look here: http://www.synergymoon.org
16:35 < fenn> from your 'about us' page it seems there arent even any technical people?
16:36 < Sean_con> define technical
16:37 < fenn> ok i was looking at interplanetaryventures.org
16:37 < fenn> which has 'communications and student activities'
16:38 < fenn> so now i'm really confused - what is the relationship between IPV and synergymoon?
16:38 < Sean_con> synergymoon is a collab project of ipv
16:39 < ybit> kanzure: hah. i've raped it several times over the past month, but not this past week. it's getting all the papers, and everything on the wiki
16:40 < Sean_con> collab: IPV, IOS, HSP
16:41 < kanzure> ybit: I installed a module in mediawiki to export everything to xml .. maybe you would like to use that
16:46 < fenn> i like the sound of this "The IOS rocket systems have been streamlined to the point that the only moving parts they employ are valves."
16:47 < Sean_con> :D
16:50 < Sean_con> so what are you thinking now?
16:51 < fenn> i am thinking you guys have no clue what you're doing :P
16:51 < Sean_con> why do you have such an idea?
16:51 < fenn> oh it's just a feeling
16:51 < fenn> IOS seems to have their shit together
16:51 < Sean_con> we know we are aiming high
16:51 < Sean_con> yes
16:54 < Sean_con> we are looking for help 
16:54 < genehacker> IOS rocket system sounds like fluidics are involved, are they?
16:55 < fenn> depends how you define fluidics i guess
16:55 < genehacker> fluidics don't have moving parts
16:55 < Sean_con> right
16:55 < Sean_con> yah
16:55 < genehacker> valves aren't fluidic
16:56 < fenn> genehacker: i think they are just pressure fed big dumb boosters
16:57 < genehacker> hey fenn, I got a couple papers on fluidic rocket control systems
16:57 < genehacker> link to more info on this rocket?
16:58 < fenn> http://www.interorbital.com/Sea%20Star%20OLV%20Page_1.htm
16:59 < genehacker> white fuming nitric acid?
16:59 < fenn> there should be some law that aerospace companies have to define all acronyms at the start of the document
17:00 < genehacker> they tried rockets that used pink fuming nitric acid and anilene as a propellent
17:01 < genehacker> but when things went wrong, the rocket would put out a pink and corrosive "cloud of death"
17:01 < fenn> masten space is still in business.. that's good to hear
17:02 < fenn> used to chat with their CTO
17:02 < fenn> Michael Mealling
17:03 < fenn> Sean_con: look at masten-space.com for example of how to put on a good show
17:04 < genehacker> sigh, I forgot about this one aerospace company trying to sell heavy lift rockets or something like that a while back
17:04 < fenn> they have big trucks and test vehicles now, but it wasn't always that way
17:04 < genehacker> that got put out of business by the government
17:05 < fenn> genehacker: the carbon fiber rockets? the guy was a banker right?
17:05 < genehacker> don't know
17:05 < Sean_con> fenn
17:05 < Sean_con> i am not the show man
17:05 < genehacker> do you know what the company is called?
17:05 < Sean_con> but i will forward it to the people
17:07 < fenn> it was named after the guy.. D... Aerospace
17:09 < fenn> Beal Aerospace
17:09 < fenn> "NASA has changed the evolutionary process for new companies and tilted the playing field against private efforts.  As a result there is no role for new launch service companies except as commodity subcontractors to NASA and its primes."
17:11 < Sean_con> >	"NASA has changed the evolutionary process for new companies and tilted the playing field against private efforts. As a result there is no role for new launch service companies except as commodity subcontractors to NASA and its primes." the challenge is to emerge as a private group
17:13 < genehacker> yeah that's them
17:15 < fenn> well i could think of worse ways to waste 250 million dollars
17:15 < fenn> but jeez don't just dump it into the river
17:18 < Sean_con> ?
17:19 < fenn> they abandoned the project and scrapped all the development equipment and prototypes
17:20 < Sean_con> ic
17:20 < Sean_con> anyway, we started this discussion with the idea of a collab
17:29 < Sean_con> your fablab needs support like finance etc
17:29 < Sean_con> we need people to help development
17:29 < kanzure> fenn: I thought the CEO of Masten Space was David Masten.
17:30 < fenn> sorry, CFO, not CTO
17:30 < fenn> all those letters, you know
17:30 < kanzure> gasp! letters!
17:30 < fenn> acronym expansion considered harmful
17:30  * kanzure is still spazzing out. thinks his doctor prescribed him something bad.
17:30 < kanzure> I don't think I've stopped typing for the last 24 hours
17:31 < kanzure> is this bad?
17:31 < genehacker> did you go to class?
17:31 < kanzure> class?
17:31 < kanzure> no
17:31 < kanzure> this semester "doesn't count"
17:32 < genehacker> yes it is bad
17:44 < kanzure> oh.
17:56 < nsh> meh
17:56 < nsh> are you being productive?
17:56 < nsh> if so, don't worry
17:57 < nsh> your doctor gave you drugs that made you productive for 24 hours. this is not something to worry about. this is something to replicate
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18:34 < kanzure> oh
18:52 < nsh> (theaboveisnottobeconstruedasmedicaladvice)
19:34 < fenn> (old but better than the nothing they provide now) opencascade documentation  http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dolbey/QtOpenCascade/doc5.1.zip
19:43 < fenn> i assume there's some windows program that opens that .HLP file
19:49 < fenn> wild magic is lgpl now?
19:59 < kanzure> fenn: there's something through wine that runs .hlp files and .chm files or something
19:59 < kanzure> or actually there's a KDE app that does it
20:03 < fenn> KchmViewer, why didnt i think of that!~
20:04 < kanzure> because you're not using debtags?
20:04 < kanzure> :p
20:04 < fenn> yeah, because "works-with::text" would have helped find it
20:09 < fenn> i wish some huge company would send me to an opencascade training seminar
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20:13 < fenn> this help file sure beats nothing though
20:18 < kanzure-> wasn't there something for 6.3?
20:18 < kanzure-> I was just trying to get around with help(stuff) in python :/
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20:22 < kanzure-> neat, my server shows up when searching for "Remote Excitation of Neuronal Circuits Using Low-Intensity, Low-Frequency Ultrasound
20:37 < fenn> openSBP is a bunch of shit, like i thought
20:49 < kanzure-> anybody doing brain stem cell therapy would be silly not to include channelrhodopsin-2 genes .. it's like pure win.
20:51 < kanzure-> neat, reprogramming of any mouse cell into iPS cells
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21:02 < fenn> isnt that old news? thought they used human skin cells like 6 months ago
21:07 < fenn> i'd love to see a fully hyperlinked version of this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_pluripotent_stem_cell
21:07 < kanzure-> that was Yamanaka and yes
21:07 < kanzure-> blah
21:07  * kanzure- will get right on it
21:07 < kanzure-> but in particular I misread
21:07 < kanzure-> this paper is about using mRNAs to reprogram adult cells into embryonic stem cells
21:07 < fenn> i mean there's all these gene names with mysterious acronyms
21:07 < kanzure-> black magic!
21:08 < kanzure-> I wonder where I put my stem cell paper collection
21:08 < kanzure-> behold ! http://heybryan.org/books/Biology/stemcells/
21:09 < fenn> mRNA seems like the right approach, rather than viruses
21:09  * kanzure- uploads stemcells.bib
21:10 < fenn> is it virus-free induction blah blah..pdf?
21:10 < kanzure-> no, sorry, one moment
21:11 < fenn> good thing they finally lifted that ban eh?~~
21:11 < fenn> just in time for it to not matter
21:12 < kanzure-> just uploaded
21:13 < kanzure-> it's the one with 'microRNAs' in the title
21:13 < fenn> i find it interesting they actually call it 'reprogramming'
21:13 < kanzure-> somebody doing something right?
21:14 < fenn> it just seems like they would mumbo-jumbo it up with "induced expression factors" or some crap
21:14 < kanzure-> oh, they do- look at the fourth line of the abstract
21:14 < kanzure-> at least I recognize some of the gene names on the fifth line
21:14 < kanzure-> god I must be sick
21:15 < fenn> wrong planet
21:15 < kanzure-> they forgot to give me a map
21:15 < fenn> and an operator's manual
21:16 < fenn> and a money-back guarantee or at least a manufacturer's warranty
21:16 < kanzure-> eh just take these pills until your mom is happy with you
21:16 < kanzure-> a manufacturer's warranty would be neat
21:17 < kanzure-> oops, I meant miRNAs, not mRNAs
21:17 < fenn> i dont know what the difference is
21:18 < fenn> shouldn't that be uRNA? :)
21:18 < kanzure-> mRNAs are messenger RNA molecules
21:18 < kanzure-> microRNA is another structure apparently
21:18 < kanzure-> you mean mu RNA
21:18 < kanzure-> or I guess {\mu} if you want to be all LaTeXy about it
21:19 < kanzure-> I think I've learned a sizable subset of LaTeX just by reading misprints in titles on journal websites that forgot to convert titles into unicode text
21:19 < fenn> god can't they just stick all this on a plasma and send in some agrobacterium
21:19 < kanzure-> a plasma?
21:19 < fenn> plasmid*
21:20 < kanzure-> how would that do anything long-term?
21:20 < kanzure-> I guess for miRNAs, you mean?
21:20 < kanzure-> for miRNA delivery
21:20 < fenn> right
21:20 < fenn> and skip all the intron spliceosome crap
21:21 < fenn> i hate being an ugly hack
21:23 < kanzure-> wah, so do something about it
21:24 < kanzure-> or not
21:24 < fenn> that's going to take a while
21:27 < kanzure-> so, as I was saying earlier
21:28 < kanzure-> there are apparently certain places in the world giving stem cell treatments for brain abnormalities
21:28 < kanzure-> i.e., "here you go, an injection of embryonic stem cells for your brains"
21:28 < kanzure-> if anything, I would opt to get those optogenetic neurons
21:28 < kanzure-> the ones with photo-activated ion channels in the membrane
21:29 < kanzure-> for laser-induced activation of regions of the brain :)
21:32 < kanzure-> heh, I wonder if you could cell your stem cells as brain implants
21:32 < kanzure-> s/cell/sell/
21:32 < kanzure-> (note I'm not using /g so neigh)
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21:35 < fenn> i love those green glowing embryo pictures
21:41 < fenn> huh did you know they made a recombinant human embryo at cornell in march?
21:42 < fenn> wow this guy comes right out and says it
21:42 < fenn> "abortion and euthanasia are both fine, desirable even; parents should be allowed to create designer or cloned babies; there's nothing wrong with a drug-fuelled Olympics; scientists and medics should strive to make us immortal, even on a crowded planet; our bodies should be routinely plundered after death for organs, even if the dead and bereaved do not wish it; it is morally justified to compel people to participate in scientific tri
21:42 < kanzure-> cutoff at "participate in scientific tri--"
21:42 < fenn> trials, just as we compel them to do jury service
21:43 < kanzure-> so, alcor's out of the picture?
21:43 < fenn> i guess that goes under 'strive to make us immortal' somewhere
21:50 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, url?
21:50 < fenn> bah, right after i closed it
21:50 < fenn> http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/03/the-worlds-fi-1.html
21:50 < katsmeow-afk> thanx :-)
21:57 < katsmeow-afk> Ethicists, however, warn that genetically modifying embryos will lead to designer babies preloaded with socially desirable traits involving height, intelligence and coloring."  <<== i believe humans should be 4ft tall max, have a 260 IQ, and be varigated purple stripes with yellow pokadots
21:58 < kanzure-> these people are idiots
21:59 < kanzure-> why do they get to decide what they think everyone else is desirable
21:59 < kanzure-> uh
21:59 < kanzure-> or however you make that make sense
21:59 < kanzure-> the point is, they are idiots
22:00 < genehacker> hey why not have a kid with purple strips
22:01 < genehacker> it can be done
22:01 < fenn> genehacker: because god hates purple stripes, that's why
22:01 < fenn> may a pox fall upon thee
22:01 < fenn> and may you lose all your funding
22:04 < katsmeow-afk> well, the 4ft tall max and the 260 IQ is prolly a good idea
22:06 -!- katsmeow-afk is now known as katsmeow
22:06 < kanzure-> in vitro multi-generational embryo selection. something to put on the todo list.
22:06 < kanzure-> especially with that recent oogenesis paper 
22:07 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Production%20of%20offspring%20from%20a%20germline%20stem%20cell%20line%20derived%20from%20neonatal%20ovaries.pdf
22:08 < katsmeow> would those immature eggs be rightly called stems cells?
22:13 < kanzure-> I thought oocytes weren't stem cells.
22:15 < katsmeow> i agree
22:16 < katsmeow> http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/08/mind-children-t.htm  is not there?
22:16 < katsmeow> +++GET 167980+++
22:16 < katsmeow> GET /my_weblog/2007/08/mind-children-t.htm HTTP/1.1
22:16 < katsmeow> Host: www.dailygalaxy.com
22:16 < katsmeow> +++RESP 167980+++
22:16 < katsmeow> HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
22:17 < katsmeow> the link is on http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/03/the-worlds-fi-1.html
22:17 < kanzure-> Are you wget-only?
22:17 < katsmeow> firefox
22:17 < kanzure-> they are idiots
22:17 < kanzure-> 2~http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/08/mind-children-t.html
22:17 < kanzure-> try that
22:17 < kanzure-> they thought they had a .htm file instead of .html
22:18 < kanzure-> ugh
22:18 < kanzure-> this hurts
22:18 < katsmeow> oh, heh, they linked badly
22:18 < kanzure-> "will inevitably lead to inequality"
22:18 < kanzure-> bullfuckingshit
22:18 < genehacker> http://www.geocities.com/sumanchakraborty_iitkgp/research.htm
22:18 < kanzure-> fine, go ahead and ignore 40 years of Freitas
22:18 < genehacker> optofluidic valve
22:19 < kanzure-> katsmeow: http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html is my rant that will probably reply to most of that link..
22:19 < kanzure-> past all of the greenstuff
22:19  * katsmeow fetches that too
22:26 < kanzure-> the entire basis of Hughes' rants and his control of the World Transhumanist Association is that he thinks we're all going to become inequal or something
22:26 < kanzure-> and that people that are uber-rich will leave behind the uber-poor
22:26 < kanzure-> but this is utter nonsense because at the time of his writing it, he was more than well aware of self-replication stuff going on in transhumanist circles
22:26 < kanzure-> although the problems go a little deeper than that
22:27 < katsmeow> why is it improving the human body translates to monetary measure?
22:27 < katsmeow> not having cancer doesn't make you rich
22:27 < katsmeow> being intelligent doean't make you rich
22:27 < kanzure-> it was basically thinking that "the rich will be able to get their children to have a high IQ"
22:27 < kanzure-> yeah, well, for some reason they correlate IQ and monetary income
22:27 < kanzure-> because of voodoo magic statistics
22:28 < kanzure-> (which I don't really care about of course)
22:28 < kanzure-> so that argument usually goes to "the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, waah"
22:29 < katsmeow> well, until the current bust, that was going on
22:29 < kanzure-> if you're going to assume the domain of transhumanist technologies,
22:29 < kanzure-> then that includes some technologies that make those arguments irrelevant
22:29 < kanzure-> like self-replicators that everyone gets access to
22:29 < katsmeow> they still trying to make it, some credit cards are saying "either we raise the rates, or you close the card"
22:29 < kanzure-> (not necessarily grey goo nanotech)
22:29 < kanzure-> so what?
22:30 < katsmeow> well, the poor who don';t have cash will be paying the rich more to borrow that money
22:30 < kanzure-> but why are you assuming money if there are self-replicators running around
22:30 < katsmeow> ergo, the rich get more of the money the poor earn
22:31 < kanzure-> I don't see what money has to do with it
22:31 < katsmeow> i was replying to what you said earlier, not to grey goo or replication
22:31 < katsmeow> [22:28] <kanzure-> so that argument usually goes to "the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, waah" [22:27] <kanzure-> yeah, well, for some reason they correlate IQ and monetary income
22:32 < kanzure-> it's ok, I still don't understand economics
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22:52 < katsmeow> i don't understand "worth"
23:05 < fenn> kanzure there's a flaw in your logic
23:06 < fenn> you're assuming replicators implies everyone will have free access to replicators
23:06 < genehacker> hey kanzure how big of a lense do you really need to do maskless lithography?
23:06 < genehacker> with an LCD screen
23:06 < fenn> genehacker: approx the size of the LCD
23:06 < genehacker> ok
23:06 < genehacker> LCDs can be made quite small
23:07 < fenn> so can DMD's...
23:07 < fenn> or whatever acronym people are using these days
23:07 < genehacker> plus we can mill our own lenses
23:08 < genehacker> if we really had to
23:08 < fenn> yeah, sure
23:08 < fenn> i guess you'll be etching your own DMD's too
23:09 < genehacker> fenn, my school had a microchip fab the size of garage
23:10 < genehacker> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bandai-Tamagotchi-Connexion-Black/dp/B0002B9EI6
23:10 < genehacker> how about an LCD this big?
23:11 < fenn> those things have terrible contrast ratio
23:12 < genehacker> bah, we don't need to worry about that
23:13 < fenn> gene you should be researching what chemicals are needed for the DNA synthesis and where to get them
23:13 < genehacker> you don't get them
23:13 < fenn> the LCD/lens stuff is dead simple
23:13 < genehacker> you make em insitu
23:13 < fenn> ok, make them, whatever
23:13 < genehacker> one paper said the cost of chemicals was $60
23:13 < fenn> yeah, per chip, in quantity
23:14 < genehacker> hard part is the dispensing mechanism
23:14 < fenn> you gotta be kidding
23:14 < genehacker> and you propose to do so how?
23:15 < fenn> well, i'd do it with an inkjet and skip all the lcd stuff
23:15 < fenn> but since you insist on doing it the hard way.. i dunno, a pipette?
23:15 < genehacker> you need a clean inkjet
23:16 < fenn> what do they use as substrate? instead of paper or film
23:16 < fenn> i mean what keeps the dna from washing away
23:20 < genehacker> http://www.biochem.wisc.edu/courses/biochem660/Reading/Singh-Gasson_NatureBiotech_DNAarrays.pdf
23:21 < genehacker> silanized microscope slides
23:21 < genehacker> I don't know fenn
23:22 -!- any01329918 [n=someone@99.194.251.75] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:23 < genehacker> I am a bit confused on how the process works
23:24 < fenn> so it's in reference 8
23:24 < fenn>  McGall, G.H. et al. The efficiency of light-directed synthesis of DNA arrays on
23:24 < fenn>  glass substrates. J. Am. Chem. Soc. 119, 5081–5090 (1997).
23:25 < fenn> jeez
23:25 < fenn> $30.00 for 48 hours of access
23:25 < fenn> whatever happened to buying something outright
23:26 < genehacker> I can see it
23:26 < genehacker> I can't understand it
23:27 < genehacker> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ja964427a?cookieSet=1
23:27 < genehacker> kanzure you know what to do
23:27 < fenn> not all of us have institutional access
23:27 < fenn> right
23:27 < genehacker> what I hate is when I find some really obscure journal
23:28 < genehacker> with a really cool article
23:28 < genehacker> that cost $30 to access
23:29 < fenn> J. ACS isn't "really obscure"
23:33 < genehacker> however this is:
23:34 < genehacker> http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=562_27
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23:36 < fenn> you just want to read it because it says 'fluidic'
23:36 < fenn> hell i could build one of those in my sleep :P
23:38 < genehacker> it's an array of fluidic amplifiers hooked up to cheap microphones to detect where bugs are in a silo
23:38 < fenn> yeah so?
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23:39 < any01329918> why not use regular amplifiers?
23:39 -!- any01329918 is now known as katsmeow-afk
23:39 < fenn> that would be too easy
23:39 < katsmeow-afk> o
23:39 < genehacker> because you only have access to crappy microphones
23:39 < katsmeow-afk> so?
23:39 < genehacker> http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0726094
23:40 < genehacker> because good microphones are expensive
23:40 < katsmeow-afk> fluidic high-intensity sound **generator** concept.
23:42 < fenn> i fail to see how a crappy amplifier would make up for a crappy microphone
23:42 < katsmeow-afk> me too
23:42 < katsmeow-afk> the one presented on that url is 180hz to 2khz
23:42 < genehacker> crappy microphone isn't very sensitibe
23:42 < katsmeow-afk> on the contrary
23:43 < katsmeow-afk> it's not high fidelity, but it canbe very sensitive
23:43 < genehacker> well the thing is this paper was published in 1997
23:44 < genehacker> I am still a bit puzzled as to why they are using fluidic amplifiers too
23:44 < genehacker> 1967 I could understand
23:44 < katsmeow-afk> to blast the bejubus outa enemies
23:45 < katsmeow-afk> look at the horn's port size
23:45 < genehacker> hmmm...
23:45 < genehacker> fairly large
23:45 < katsmeow-afk> the thing could prolly reproduce the space shuttle liftoff at proper volume
23:45 < katsmeow-afk> not all frequencies, tho
23:46 < genehacker> that's why they make high intensity sound generators
23:46 < katsmeow-afk> [23:43] <genehacker> I am still a bit puzzled as to why they are using fluidic amplifiers too  
23:46 < katsmeow-afk> [23:45] <genehacker> that's why they make high intensity sound generators
23:46 < katsmeow-afk> ok, i am confused
23:46 < katsmeow-afk> bbl
23:46 < genehacker> no I am puzzled about the bug detector
23:47 < genehacker> http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/auxetophone/auxetoph.htm#165