--- Day changed Tue Apr 28 2009
00:02 < fenn> genehacker: seriously, talke to superkuh about tamiflu synthesis
00:03 < genehacker> huh?
00:03 < genehacker> well I'm not super swine flu paranoid
00:04 < genehacker> is he?
00:04 < fenn> not swine flu in particular, but flu pandemics in general
00:05 < fenn> he's sort of taken it upon himself to be prepared for a flu pandemic
00:05 < genehacker> oh cool
00:05 < fenn> and it's 2009 btw
00:05 < genehacker> 2009 and we still make it from a chinese spice
00:06 < genehacker> guess it's effective
00:06 < fenn> i guess
00:06 < kanzure-> I was asking superkuh about that earlier today actually
00:06 < kanzure-> for someone who is online all the time, he's not always responsive, and in this case not at all
00:06 < genehacker> well there is also this one competition
00:07 < kanzure-> apparently he was spazzing out about the flu a few years ago
00:07 < fenn> does he still have a website? the damn thing moves around so much i cant keep track
00:07 < kanzure-> http://superkuh.ath.cx/
00:07 < genehacker> what happened a few years ago?
00:07 < kanzure-> http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/
00:08 < fenn> hm that looks old
00:08 < kanzure-> some of the files are from a few days ago
00:09 < kanzure-> I don't know how he is the way he is
00:09 < genehacker> a new a genetic code table
00:09 < genehacker> oh no
00:09 < genehacker> don't tell me
00:09 < genehacker> Superkuh actually buy some of that nonsense
00:09 < kanzure-> ?
00:09 < kanzure-> buy what nonsense?
00:10 < genehacker> about DNA being some sort of weird holographic representation of us
00:10 < fenn> hah "ADVANCED BODY ARMOR UTILIZING SHEAR THICKENING FLUIDS.pdf"
00:10 < genehacker> hehe
00:10 < genehacker> cornstarch and water basically
00:10 < genehacker> except with silica
00:10 < fenn> and PEG
00:10 < genehacker> crystal growth?
00:11 < genehacker> hmmm...
00:11 < genehacker> sounds like he wants to grow his own pyroelectrics
00:11 < kanzure-> bonus points for anyone who gets him to come in here
00:12 < genehacker> hey he built a blue ray laser
00:12 < genehacker> like I did
00:12 < genehacker> he used more expensive diodes though
00:12 < fenn> ... they used to cost more you know
00:12 < kanzure-> genehacker: so today I was doing the calculations for acoustic cavitation of water
00:12 < kanzure-> to produce a laminar waterjet cutter
00:12 < kanzure-> via laser-induced cavitation
00:13 < genehacker> ???
00:13 < kanzure-> blinky LED -> waterjet
00:13 < genehacker> you have my full attention
00:13 < kanzure-> cavitation shockwaves are very high pressure
00:13 < genehacker> yes indeed
00:13 < genehacker> I know that
00:13 < kanzure-> so, if you put it close to the piece that you want to work, I'm figuring that it's basically a waterjet
00:13 < kanzure-> if it's in some sort of capillary tube
00:13 < genehacker> well...
00:14 < genehacker> cavitation eats away propellors very slowly...
00:14 < fenn> what's to keep the bubble from eating away at the sides of the cut?
00:14 < kanzure-> well I'm actually not thinking of this quite well
00:15 < kanzure-> what I want to have happen is a literal waterjet 
00:15 < kanzure-> squirt out of the end of a small hole
00:15 < kanzure-> but that's not a bubble, is it.
00:15 < fenn> um, that's been done. and it's expensive
00:15 < kanzure-> it hasn't been done with LEDs.
00:15 < kanzure-> it's been done with big expensive water compressors
00:15 < fenn> led's dont have enough power to do that realistically
00:15 < kanzure-> high pressure shit
00:15 < fenn> yes, multi-kW pumps
00:15 < kanzure-> femtosecond pulsing of LEDs of water.
00:15 < kanzure-> *over water
00:15 < fenn> you'd need multi-kW LED's to achieve the same rate of flow
00:15 < kanzure-> or however you want to say that.
00:15 < kanzure-> hrm.
00:16 < fenn> at least
00:16 < kanzure-> still need to think about this some more
00:16 < genehacker> how about a high power argon laser?
00:16 < fenn> most of the light would just go into heating the water
00:16 < genehacker> like the ones on floor 7 of the etc
00:17 < genehacker> well if it works you've found a new way to form metal
00:17 < genehacker> photoacoustohydraulic cutting
00:18 < fenn> aka "mikuru-beam"
00:18 < kanzure-> treadwell was talking to me the other day about wanting to do a laminar flow fountain, and for some reason I thought waterjet cutter.
00:18 < genehacker> hahahha
00:19 < kanzure-> heh
00:19 < genehacker> laminar flow is cool
00:19 < genehacker> LAMINAR FLOW WITH LASERS
00:19 < kanzure-> fenn: I'm sure we could do crazy DBZ-like effects with lasers and plasma or something
00:19 < genehacker> well I did a calculation the other day
00:19 < kanzure-> stuff that would probably also kill you
00:20 < fenn> parabolic lasers
00:20 < genehacker> with EEstor's ultracapacitors we could make a plasma gun that could shoot thousands of plasma balls
00:20 < genehacker> thousands
00:20 < fenn> over 9 thousand?
00:21 < kanzure-> aha, here we go: 
00:21 < kanzure-> http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/H5N1/
00:21 < fenn> that is definitely not all of it
00:21 < kanzure-> http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/H5N1/oseltamivir.txt
00:21 < kanzure-> haha, synthesis of oseltamivir
00:23 < genehacker> yeah
00:23 < genehacker> like 36000
00:23 < genehacker> and that's with one $40(OR SO THEY SAY) capacitor pack and a decent power setting
00:24 < genehacker> plasmoids won't last that long though
00:24 < fenn> i think you have to be either zenn-motors or lockheed-martin to actually buy one
00:24 < genehacker> you could shoot 3 really long lasting ones
00:24 < genehacker> sigh, so true fenn
00:24 < genehacker> I want one so bad!
00:25 < genehacker> a 1 kwh one that is
00:25 < fenn> yep that'd be plenty for various mischief
00:26 < genehacker> yeah
00:26 < fenn> er, you know kanzure-, people probably have no idea wtf oseltamivir is
00:26 < genehacker> more than enough to EMP a bunch of things
00:27 < kanzure-> oh.
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00:27 < kanzure-> it's not like it's quickly become the most popular compound in the news or anything
00:28 < genehacker> it is
00:39 < kanzure-> fenn, is there some trick to writing firefox extensions?
00:39 < kanzure-> it's like this documentation is cryptic or something
00:42 < fenn> most documentation is
00:42 < fenn> in such a situation the best thing to do is look at example code
00:42 < fenn> or just google for the answer
00:43 < kanzure-> right
00:44 < kanzure-> this is why I hate this sort of programming though
00:44 < kanzure-> everything I know about it is just a matter of previous queries I have put into google
00:44 < kanzure-> for hours on end trying to come up with some mundane solution to a stupid problem that shouldn't be there in the first place
00:45 < kanzure-> most firefox extensions are dull or don't do what I want. it's odd. but otherwise, yeah, pick-and-steal is the method of choice
00:51 < kanzure-> ok, maybe I'll just give up on the GUI part of this
01:03 < fenn> sounds like programming, yep
01:08 < splicer> I'm sitting with a big chunk of code I'm afraid to touch even though I wrote it myself... I've got to start doing TDD.
01:12 < fenn> TDD?
01:12 < fenn> nm
01:16 < splicer> (there is something beautiful in having the system test itself while I'm sleeping)
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01:28 < kanzure> http://www.citeulike.org/groupfunc/8132/home BCI paper reading group
01:28 < kanzure> unfortunately none of the papers look worthwhile
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03:05 < faceface> re above bubbles, you can use sono-poration to  kill cancer cells or to specifically inject medicine
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08:17 < kanzure> http://singularityhub.com/2009/04/28/do-it-yourself-biohacking/
08:17  * kanzure reads
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08:54 < kanzure> http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Org/zyvexmail.txt zyvex listserv ?
09:04 < kanzure> that singularityhub article was poorly written.
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11:10 < kanzure> so why haven't I been focusing on agrobacterium
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12:29 < kanzure> hrm. need to increase the expression of lactifiers.
12:29 < kanzure> "Lactifiers secrete latex and are dispersed throughout most plant tissues."
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12:35 < kanzure> hah
12:35 < kanzure> a protocol for the production of transgenic tea
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13:18 < kanzure-> I really really like freeze-thaw genetic transformation of agrobacterium
13:20 < kanzure-> hrm. I wonder if we could do photolithography of latex from dandelions.
13:20 < kanzure-> does latex polymerize? isn't it polymerizable in the presence of heat or something?
13:22 < kanzure-> ah, nanosphere lithography (NIL) using nm-diameter latex spheres. eh.
13:22 < kanzure-> "latex particle lithography"
13:23 < kanzure-> there's a patent for UV curable latexes
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17:14 < kanzure> that article was so terrible that drew endy emailed me to complain
17:17 < kanzure> http://epicycle.org/ campbell's blog
17:18 < kanzure> http://epicycle.org/2006_10_01_archive.html
17:18 < kanzure> planetary gear?
17:19 < kanzure> ah, read this one, fenn: http://epicycle.org/2006_06_01_archive.html
17:20 < kanzure> pneumatic bicycle
17:20 < kanzure> who would want compressed air between their knees
17:20 < kanzure> sounds like a bad idea
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17:35 < kanzure> hey cis-action 
17:35 < kanzure> so, agrobacterium
17:36 < cis-action> ok
17:36 < cis-action> (btw Aaron updated the article, not sure if that was clear)
17:36 < kanzure> I think Superkuh did this project a while back
17:36 < kanzure> anyway, what he did in particular was hunt down agrobacterium in his forests
17:36 < kanzure> and then cultivated some strains
17:36 < kanzure> and in particular, potted some dandelions
17:36 < kanzure> dandelions and lettuce produce a sappy substance of latex
17:37 < kanzure> and in particular, dandelions can be made to produce specific proteins in the latex matrix
17:37 < kanzure> so I think he was using it to produce some particular proteins (I'm not sure though)
17:37 < kanzure> (it's probably a project sitting in a corner of his basement, to be honest)
17:37 < kanzure> Taraxacum officinale (Dandelion) as an expression system for recombinant proteins
17:38 < kanzure> I think diybio-boston should go on a nature hike with a biologist from a university to go find some agrobacterium samples
17:39 < cis-action> that would be very awesome
17:39 < cis-action> do you have any pointers to superkuhs work?
17:39 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/
17:39 < kanzure> search for 'taraxacum'
17:40 < cis-action> also, do we log hplusroadmap?  that seems like it would be useful
17:40 < kanzure> yes, we log
17:40 < kanzure> however, I insult you all the time in here so I don't know if that'd be cool or not
17:40 < kanzure> :p
17:40 < cis-action> ha ha ha
17:40 < cis-action> I don't care
17:41 < kanzure> fantastic.
17:41 < kanzure> also, another recent paper that I was reading
17:41 < cis-action> I'll just leave in a huff and then come back 15 minutes later
17:41 < kanzure> was about coconut water
17:41 < kanzure> if you insert plasmids into coconut water (directly), the nuclei in the coconut milk will take up the DNA and express the proteins
17:41 < kanzure> unfortunately I do not have a coconut tree :(
17:42 < kanzure> more stuff here: http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/meh/agrobacterium/
17:43 < kanzure> the agar substitute he was using was laundry starch + potato powder + semolina (2:1:1)
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17:46 < kanzure> hm he was planning the coconut experiment
17:46 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/PROJECTS/PROJECT_Coconut/coconut_002.jpg
17:46 < kanzure> I like the "BLOW UP LAB ?" crossed out on the page
17:47 < kanzure> or this: http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/PROJECTS/PROJECT_Coconut/bioreactor_01.jpg
17:48 < kanzure> heh he was going to do 20 micron ultrafiltration
17:51 < cis-action> one sec
18:05 < cis-action> ok
18:05 < cis-action> I have to step out for a pre-dinner errand
18:05 < cis-action> I'll come back to this discussion
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19:17 < kanzure> cis-action: hey
19:17 < kanzure> sorry, I had a meeting with someone
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19:22 < kanzure-> I}ruid: hey.
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 28 19:45:07 2009
--- Log opened Wed May 06 08:46:50 2009
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08:53 < fenn> hah. chopped all those knobbly things off my bike tire, now it works
08:56 < kanzure> erm, how long did you spend on that
08:56 < kanzure> maybe you shouldn't tell me
09:00 < fenn> about half an hour
09:01 < fenn> in the process i found that i had two broken spokes
09:10 < kardan__i> kanzure this is what i thought of: http://oshw.0xb5.org/
09:14 < fenn> two projects?
09:14 < fenn> oh this is a demo of the web based database editor
09:14 < kardan__i> the content doesnt matter
09:14 < fenn> the 'depends' field is where things get tricky
09:14 < kardan__i> everybody may edit it atm
09:15 < fenn> it's not so easy as with software where you just say 'requires such n such library, end of story' and it's no big deal for anyone to download that library
09:15 < kardan__i> depends should point to another project
09:15 < kardan__i> yes
09:16 < fenn> we've gone over this at length.. i'd love to share some files with you but my webserver's down
09:16 < kardan__i> at least instructions are necessary how to include other peaces
09:17 < kardan__i> examples would be great. you can send them to kardan@brueckenschlaeger.de
09:21 < fenn> i've been hoping someone would come help write a web interface for a long time now
09:21 < fenn> but the back-end is still barely even started
09:22 < fenn> i dont think a relational database is going to cut it
09:22 < fenn> especially not with distributed development of the database 
09:22 < kardan__i> with such a db interface we can create files of every we like, i just need to write an exporter
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09:23 < kardan> mh maybe its not best but i have no better solution yet
09:23 < fenn> ok. at worst you could just show some text forms to edit the raw yaml
09:23 < fenn> and store the yaml in the database
09:24 < fenn> but that is sorta pointless
09:24 < fenn> you want to do something like 'select from screws where thread = M8' right?
09:26 < kardan> sort of. especially i think of a material table which enables much more
09:26 < fenn> yeah. it's hard to know where to begin
09:26 < kanzure> "microplasma powder deposition" <- heh.
09:26 < fenn> kanzure has scraped some material databases
09:27 < fenn> i'm not really sure of the utility though since we don't know where to actually get most of them
09:27 < kardan> for instance a motherboard could have some materials as provides and a computer would list it a s needed material / depend
09:27 < kanzure> except for mindat
09:27 < fenn> i mean it wouldn't be hard to go through mcmaster.com or onlinemetals.com and make a reasonably complete materials selection
09:28 < kanzure> soo
09:28 < kanzure> I think I might leave out symbolic equations
09:28 < fenn> oh, that's what we were calling a 'package'
09:28 < kanzure> if I do, it's less awesome
09:28 < kanzure> but doable
09:28 < fenn> kanzure: i think mathematical models are useful but they odnt always exist so it shouldnt be a requirement
09:29 < kanzure> but where would they go?
09:29 < fenn> it's not very hard to implement though, see my screw thread force calculation for example
09:29 < kanzure> if they are available, for, say, a gear?
09:29 < fenn> class method
09:29 < kanzure> that doesn't explain anything
09:29 < fenn> inherit methods from more generic classes for more automagical solution
09:29 < fenn> but you never get to 100% magic
09:29 < fenn> you have to read the manual at some point
09:30 < fenn> i havent read albert's paper
09:30 < kanzure> I don't recommend it
09:31 < kanzure> so, in the case of a-design, the equations were being constructed by taking "through" and "across" variables
09:31 < kanzure> erm
09:31 < fenn> my idea of a gear train is it has some function that describes the relationship between input and output positions and forces
09:31 < fenn> yeah, except without the stupid names like 'through' and 'across' :P
09:31 < kanzure> in the "control point" data structure, basically campbell had some variables that defined the derivatives and integrals for going in certain directions
09:31 < kanzure> well, I was hoping reading his source code would help explain things
09:31 < kanzure> haven't got around to that today yet
09:31 < fenn> reading the source code almost never helps explain things
09:32 < fenn> welp i wish i had read this stuff, now i'm going to go make a fool of myself yes? :)
09:32 < kanzure> not really
09:33 < fenn> campbell called if functional parameter right?
09:33 < kanzure> yes
09:33 < fenn> not control point
09:33 < kanzure> yes
09:33 < fenn> ok so, what is an fp?
09:33 < kanzure> it is like what I am calling 'control point' heh'
09:33 < fenn> is it just some numbers that plug into super-duper universal modeling equations?
09:33 < kanzure> except his FP thingy is tailored for something like 'bond graphs'
09:33 < kanzure> err
09:33 < kanzure> not really
09:33 < fenn> i dont know what a bond graph is either
09:33 < kanzure> so in the FP data structure there is a sub list called MG-change
09:34 < kanzure> and this MG-change structure has a few arrays: through[n], across[n]
09:34 < kanzure> each value in the arrays is an equation
09:34 < kanzure> where n = number of ports or interfaces
09:34 < kanzure> somehow these equations are assembled together by doing certain path traversals
09:35 < kanzure> through the design.
09:35 < fenn> ok
09:35 < fenn> so they just use the same equations for everything, which is what i said
09:35 < kanzure> in this paper, http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Guiding%20conceptual%20design%20through%20behavioral%20reasoning%20-%20Welch%20-%20Dixon%20-%201994.pdf
09:35 < kanzure> they use some sort of 'directional derivative' (pg 4)
09:36 < kanzure> which is the stuff about either directly proportional or inversely proportional
09:36 < kanzure> (or no proportional relation)
09:37 < kanzure> the equations though don't really seem to be per-component/class, but instead per-port.
09:37 < kanzure> which is weird.
09:37 < kanzure> I've been asking campbell why he thinks this bond graph stuff is necessary, and why can't it just work by resolving the units
09:37 < fenn> it shouldnt be proportional vs inversely proportional though; should be function vs its inverse
09:37 < kanzure> well in the equations I mean, er
09:37 < fenn> inverse like f(inverse(x)) = x
09:38 < kanzure> ok, I don't have it
09:38 < kanzure> but one of the examples was something that calculated the theta/angle of a dial
09:38 < kanzure> in a given design generated by the a-design software
09:38 < kanzure> and in this equation for calculating theta,
09:38 < fenn> there were lots of those..
09:38 < kanzure> there was a (1 / spring-constant)
09:38 < fenn> right i remember that
09:38 < kanzure> as opposed to (1 * spring-constant)
09:38 < kanzure> so 1/x is inversely proportional
09:38 < kanzure> 1*x is a proportion
09:39 < kanzure> * so 1/x is an inverse proportion
09:39 < kanzure> and they some how then assemble (1/x)(y)(1/z) together by some path traversal through the design graph? or something?
09:39 < kanzure> but I don't know if that makes sense. I haven't really ever done that when I've done designs ..
09:41 < fenn> man your server is so slow
09:41 < fenn> i think it was this http://heybryan.org/books/papers/campbell-dissertation-diagram-thingy.png
09:41 < kanzure> aha, yes
09:41 < kanzure> er, so, I think it woudl be faster if I set up ProxyPass on one of the servers on the campus
09:41 < kanzure> since I have like 10 MB/sec in and out of the university
09:42 < fenn> the spring constant is inverse because it's in parallel with the lever
09:42 < kanzure> if it was serial, it would not be inverse?
09:43 < fenn> well, that's just my gut reaction
09:43 < kanzure> parallel versus serial is a common theme that campbell was ranting about yesterday when I was talking with him
09:43 < kanzure> *was a common theme
09:44 < fenn> i dont really know what the spring is doing
09:44 < fenn> i suppose i should get down there
09:45 < kanzure> ok, give me a ring if you end up in Mexico or something
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12:42 < kardan> maybe i will improve this interface later
12:42 < kardan> but at the moment ii have no clue, what you exactly need
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14:36 < kardan> hi #h+
14:38 < kanzure> hello
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15:03 < kardan_> i think i will collect projects in the database later. maybe it needs some security features first.
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18:46 < kanzure-> in adesign/tests/coordtests/oldtests/test.lisp in the first few lines there's an example of MG-change written out.
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19:53 < fenn> oh boy my monitor spontaneously fixed itself
20:52 < kanzure-> an it spontaneously fix the void in my soul that LISP is eating away
20:52 < kanzure-> *can it
20:57 < fenn> no
20:57 < fenn> only a healthy dose of C# can do that
20:58 < kanzure-> the most healthy dose of C# is no dose at all.
20:58 < fenn> deletionist!
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21:34 < kanzure-> heh there's a show called "DOING DAVINCI"
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22:59 < kanzure-> so .. it's still running.
22:59 < kanzure-> (FOOTPAD DIAL MOTOR MOTOR PULLEY GENERATOR)
22:59 < kanzure-> don't know when it will stop ..
23:00 < kanzure-> (FOOTPAD DIAL MOTOR MOTOR PULLEY GENERATOR POTENTIOMETER MOTOR MOTOR)
23:13 < kanzure-> (FOOTPAD DIAL MOTOR GENERATOR MOTOR GENERATOR POTENTIOMETER POTENTIOMETER GENERATOR GENERATOR MOTOR)
23:22 < kanzure-> there's this funny email to the AGI list from Michael Swan asking "how should somebody who develops AGI be compensated"
23:22 < kanzure-> "1% of all profits derived from implementing the AGI? give it away for free?"
23:22 < kanzure-> I don't know why you would need to be compensated if you actually have AGI ..
23:22 < kanzure-> what's the point?
23:25 < kanzure-> hrm. initweigh.lisp line 337~ is where the design problem is specified. but the format is non-obvious.
23:50 < kanzure-> there are some examples in tests/coordtests/tests.lisp but copying-and-pasting the build-fps lines over doesn't work. something about the wrong number of arguments, etc.
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