--- Day changed Sun May 03 2009
00:15 < genehacker> so the limiting factor of insect size is oxygen right?
00:20 < kanzure> really?
00:20  * kanzure is watching "Evolution"
00:20 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZgcWao0FsA&feature=related
00:24 < genehacker> figure out what this has to do with portable oxygen concentrators and my evil plan.
00:26 < genehacker> stratasys makes biocompatible plastic
00:26 < genehacker> hmmmm
00:36 < kanzure> genehacker: did you see the paper on water-curable polymers?
00:37 < genehacker> no
00:37 < genehacker> do link
00:37 < kanzure> well foo.
00:37 < kanzure> oops, sorry
00:37 < kanzure> water-soluble polymer
00:37 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/parviz/Water-soluble%20sacrificial%20layers%20for%20surface%20micromachining.pdf
00:39 < genehacker> THAT'S EVEN MORE INTERESTING!
00:41 < kanzure> other papers by the same author: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/parviz/?C=S;O=D
00:42 < kanzure> this one was neat: Drosophila as an unconventional substrate for microfabrication
00:42 < kanzure> Photo-patternable gelatin as protection layers in low-temperature surface micromachinings
00:43 < genehacker> can you squirt it out of an extruder?
00:43 < genehacker> will hot plastic stick to it?
00:44 < kanzure> "Interestingly, gelatin can be used as a binder in light-sensitive photlithographic products. Adding dichromate into gelatin makes it a photo-patternable material like negative photo-resist."
00:44 < kanzure> (UV light)
00:45 < kanzure> *photolithographic products
00:46 < genehacker> interesting
00:46 < kanzure> as in, gummy bears
00:46 < genehacker> let's find a way to grow it in tanks
00:46 < genehacker> edible? bet it's not
00:46 < kanzure> sadly, the gelatin material is not the same thing as the water-soluble polymer voodoo magic
00:46 < genehacker> though I did see this weird chromium compound in this one drink?
00:47 < genehacker> ;(
00:47 < kanzure> hrm. dichromate shouldn't be too hard to acquire.
00:50 -!- any73189290 is now known as katsmeow
00:54 < genehacker> it isn't
02:17 -!- any63334730 is now known as katsmeow
03:28  * any28973518 points kanzure to http://namcub.accela-labs.com/stories/ebooks/
03:30 < kanzure-> any28973518: namcub is enki2
03:30 < kanzure-> he's in #namcub on this server
03:31 < kanzure-> he uses /stories/ebooks/ for his xsublim system .. which I'm still not convinced is doing anything productive for him.
03:33 < any28973518> what's a xsublim?
03:34 < any28973518> i feel stupid going to thatroom just to ask that, but i will, i swear!
03:35 -!- any28973518 is now known as katsmeow
03:35 < kanzure-> xsublim is a subliminal messaging system for X11
03:35 < katsmeow> obviously, that's not the home automation line carrier thing?
03:36 < kanzure-> no. :(
03:36 < kanzure-> that's X10
03:36 < kanzure-> X11 is the linux window server thingy
03:37 < katsmeow> o
03:38 < katsmeow> no one there
03:38 < kanzure-> elias`: where is namcub?
03:57 < katsmeow> well, ENKI-][ is online with ZaLGOS in #discord on another net, but that's as close as i can get, because s/he's afk and the bot seems to be off
03:57 < kanzure-> hrm. okay. I'll hunt him down in a bit if you want.
03:58 < kanzure-> he should be in #wrongplanet
03:58 < katsmeow> an aspie, eh?
03:58 < kanzure-> you're surrounded by them
03:58 < katsmeow> oh no!
03:58  * kanzure- flails arms as if a ninja
03:59  * katsmeow looks scared
04:00 < katsmeow> i was in #wp yesterday, i had to let off some steam
04:14 < genehacker> zalgo?
04:15 < katsmeow> what's that?
04:15 < genehacker> oh good you're not 'one of them'
04:15  * katsmeow looks confused
04:16 < genehacker> zalgo is ̔̕̚̕̚҉ ҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇ ̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̊̋̌̍ ̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̕̚͡ ͡҉҉ ̵̡̢̛̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠͇̊̋...
04:16 < katsmeow> i dunno what a "zalgo" is, so ia m not one of what?
04:17 < genehacker> we don't know what zalgo is
04:17 < genehacker> H҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘Ȅ̐̑̒̚̕� � IS C̒̓̔̿̿̿̕̚̚̕̚̕̚̕� �̕̚̕̚OMI҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘NG though
04:17 < katsmeow> i can't read that
04:17 < genehacker> it's an internet meme that parodies cthulu
04:17 < katsmeow> umm, another word i dunno
04:18 < katsmeow> so what is it that i'm not?
04:18 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu
04:19 < ybit> have you all tried twill?
04:19 < ybit> i like it
04:20 < ybit> sadly though, it hasn't been recognizing forms correctly, so i'm resorting to wget to login and retrieve files from sciencedirect
04:25 < kanzure-> would it be more interesting to do "recursive self amplification" than "recursive self improvement" ?
04:25 < kanzure-> (considering the definitional problems re: improvement)
04:32 < genehacker> they're both the same
04:39 < ybit> what exactly is namcub?
04:39  * katsmeow looks clueless
04:50 -!- any90246345 is now known as katsmeow
04:57  * any14384917 cusses 
04:57 -!- any14384917 is now known as katsmeow
04:58  * katsmeow cannot stay conencted when there's a storm in the state :-/ 
04:58 < kanzure-> why's that?
05:01 < katsmeow> instead if fedding lightning into the user's homes, the telco now disconencts everyone
05:02 < ybit> ah, namcub, i see
05:03 < katsmeow> you see him/her ?
05:28 < genehacker> ????
05:28 < genehacker> why?
05:28 < genehacker> microwave connection?
05:38 -!- any77431650 is now known as katsmeow
05:47 -!- any82348144 is now known as katsmeow
06:23 < genehacker> hmmm...
06:23 < genehacker> surely kurzweil gives out scholarships...
06:34 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
06:45 < kanzure> I wouldn't pursue kurzweil much, genehacker 
06:45 < kanzure> it's a dead end
06:45 < genehacker> if he gives money I will take 
06:45 < genehacker> wouldn't take his weird idealism though
06:46 < kanzure> how much money do you need
07:05 < genehacker> s-cool money
08:23 -!- any92016957 is now known as katsmeow-afk
11:06 < fenn> wow this is cool, i can pick up six wifi points with this new antenna
12:48 < fenn> oops
16:34 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
18:15 < katsmeow-afk> South Korean scientists claim that they have created the world's first cloned, glowing dogs at Seoul National University.
18:15 < katsmeow-afk> The Korean experts said Tuesday that they engineered four beagles that glow red
18:15 < katsmeow-afk> Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:26:12 GMT
18:15 < katsmeow-afk> The four dogs, all named "Ruppy" - a combination of the words "ruby" and "puppy" - look like typical beagles by daylight.
18:16 < katsmeow-afk> they hope they can use the same techniques to make non-glowing dogs too
18:21 < fenn> crime against nature, those poor ruppies, etc etc
18:22 < fenn> i can just see the jokes about glowing dog-burgers already
18:22 < katsmeow-afk> Drinking water containing considerable amounts of an element known as lithium can help reduce the rate of suicide, a Japanese study finds. 
18:22 < katsmeow-afk>  i bet the more paranoid, who think the gov is putting things in the tap water, kill themselves in record numbers
18:23 < kanzure> Frank Harold replied to my email. yay for old scientists having enough time to answer email.
18:23 < fenn> so, you can buy GE aquarium fish, how is that possible? what regulatory framework is there for selling them as pets?
18:23 < kanzure> Seoul National University is a scary place.
18:24 < kanzure> they have Suh.
18:24 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/suh/
18:24 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: lithium helps with bipolar disorder
18:24 < fenn> ...not paranoia
18:24 < katsmeow-afk> that's why i said the paranoid would be killing themselves in greater numbers
18:25 < kanzure> what's the point of paranoia if you're just going to kill yourself
18:25 < kanzure> isn't the point to avoid thingies that would kill you?
18:25 < fenn> perzackely
18:25 < katsmeow-afk> no, it's to avoid pain and loss of control
18:25 < kanzure> maybe I've been doing the paranoia-thing all wrong
18:25 < fenn> being dead is pretty much 'loss of control' in my book
18:26 < kanzure> I am interested in this book and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
18:26 < katsmeow-afk> it's like :  German-based company SolarWorld AG has invested $500 million on a site in Hillsboro, Oregon <<== but i am not allowed to put up the 10 pv panels i bought in 2001
18:26 < fenn> you'll have to contact my agent
18:27 < kanzure> so I emailed Frank for a good reason- I don't know if any of you read his article or the notes I was taking on it
18:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/to-shape-a-cell_notes.txt
18:27 < kanzure> was asking him about good high-throughput morphogenesis experiments
18:28 < kanzure> instead of traveling the world looking for diverse phenotypes of microorganisms, I was wondering if I could just use an evolution-acceleration-chip-thingy to put the selective pressure on diverse phenotypes, or something
18:28 < kanzure> shape isn't exactly specifically genetically controlled, so just adding a DNA synthesizer on a chip isn't going to make wonderful things happen
18:28 < fenn> it's hard to select for diversity
18:28  * kanzure nods
18:29 < kanzure> but billions of different droplets surely come in handy
18:29 < kanzure> I would consider tagging the cell walls with some marker, and then coming up with a way to make sure a cell isn't "cheating the system"
18:29 < fenn> why interested in cell shape?
18:29 < kanzure> and then do some optics, record the shape of the cells in a droplet, and do something based on that
18:29 < kanzure> not sure
18:29 < kanzure> something to stare at
18:30 < fenn> most cells are either 'blob' or some kind of repetetive self assembly result
18:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/bacterial_shape.png
18:31 < fenn> wow that's e. coli?
18:32 < fenn> penicillin interferes with cell wall construction
18:32 < kanzure> genes that might be interesting: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/morphogenesis_mutations.png
18:34 < fenn> penicillin interferes with peptidoglycan crosslinking, so presumably that mutant doesn't do any crosslinking
18:35 < kanzure> another worthy diagram: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/selective_value_of_bacterial_shape.png
18:36 < fenn> caulobacter is a neat one to study
18:37 < kanzure> on a more meta note, it is interesting to know that since shape is not explicitly defined in the genes,
18:38 < kanzure> all of the taxonomists have been applying a selective pressure for different specimens in different categories
18:38 < kanzure> on a more meta note, it is interesting to know that since shape is not explicitly defined in the genes,
18:38 < kanzure> all of the taxonomists have been applying a selective pressure for different specimens in different categories
18:39 < kanzure> which has, no doubt, influenced selective pressures involved in taking specimens between labs, or something
18:39 < fenn_> actually most bacteria look like little balls or little sticks
18:39 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
18:39 < kanzure> making yourself look like something more interesting surely has an advantage
18:40 < fenn> not for a microbe
18:40 < kanzure> in a lab?
18:40 < fenn> the number of microbes in labs is tiny compared to the rest of the world
18:40 < kanzure> yeah I know
18:40 < kanzure> but I was talking about selective pressures in labs
18:40 < kanzure> because of taxonomists
18:40 < fenn> last estimate i heard was that only one in a million wild type strains could actually be cultured
18:41 < fenn> there's a bacterium (single cell) that you can actually see with naked eye, it lives in the intestine of tuna? salmon?
18:42 < fenn> nobody's been able to culture it, regardless how much fish guts they throw at it :P
18:43 < fenn> kanzure: did you know your mediawiki install is borked?
18:43 < kanzure> yes. :(
18:43 < fenn> ok
18:43 < kanzure> nobody has yelled at me loudly enough to fix it
18:43 < kanzure> why are you guys using it anyway
18:43  * fenn shrugs
18:43 < kanzure> does it have anything useful?
18:44 < fenn> i wanted to back-up the skdb and sand/silicon replicator texts before it blew up
18:44 < kanzure> ok. I'll fix.
18:45 < kanzure> Unable to lock ibdata1, error: 11. Check that you do not already have another mysqld process using the same InnoDB data or log files. 
18:45 < kanzure> blah, i don't.
18:49 < kanzure> ah, 'mysqlcheck' is my friend now.
19:04 -!- any36617078 is now known as katsmeow-afk
19:08 < kanzure> ok, wiki fixed
19:14 < fenn_> i dont suppose i ever posted the .dia file for that
19:14 < fenn_> for the terrible skdb diagram
19:14 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
19:14 < kanzure> somewhere on fennetic.net
19:15 < fenn> all i have are early revisions
19:15 < fenn> oh well
19:16 < kanzure> wait, isn't the .dia file in the wiki page? I installed the mediawiki-graphviz extension..
19:17 < fenn> no
19:17 < fenn> dia isn't graphviz anyway
19:21 < kanzure> dunno whether it's good or bad that campbell and I both came up with similar data structures re: skdb-related-stuff. the "control point" class that I was writing, and his "functional parameter" class.
19:26 < kanzure> hm.
19:56  * any59249990 got nice tornado pics 
19:58 -!- any59249990 is now known as katsmeow-afk
20:01 < fenn> how do i automatedly chop out a section of a multi line file?
20:01 < fenn> sed seems to only want to work with one line at a time
20:01 < kanzure> your question is confusing
20:02 < kanzure> line 1 line 2 line 3 line 4 and you want to cut out specifically lines 2 through 4?
20:02 < fenn> i'm trying to download wiki html and extract the form contents on the edit page
20:02 < kanzure> ew
20:02 < fenn> yeah
20:02 < kanzure> wtf is wrong with you
20:02 < fenn> i hate sql?
20:02 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Special:ViewXML
20:02 < fenn> um, so?
20:03 < kanzure> or use pywikipediabot
20:03 < kanzure> http://pywikipediabot.sourceforge.net/
20:03 < fenn> dammit i just want one page
20:03 < fenn> well, all revisions of one page
20:04  * fenn kicks the frozen corpse of sed
20:04 < kanzure> you could use perl's HTML::Parser tool
20:04 < fenn> it has nothing to do with html
20:04 < kanzure> "form contents on the edit page"
20:04 < fenn> it's multiline regex
20:04 < kanzure> isn't there a way to do $^ or something?
20:04 < fenn> grep -Eo 'textarea\(.*\)textarea' ought to work
20:04 < kanzure> something like $^$ should get you a blank line
20:05 < kanzure> oh
20:05 -!- any09683000 is now known as katsmeow-afk
20:05 < kanzure> isn't that an issue of greedy versus non-greedy or something
20:05 < kanzure> I'm not being of much help.
20:06  * kanzure hangs up his regex-foo nunchucks.
20:07 < fenn> hm
20:07 < fenn> RHEL come with pcregrep installed, which does Perl-compatible regex matching. And by adding a -M switch you get multiline matching!
20:08 < fenn> damn swiss army knife salesmen
20:10 < fenn> silly me to expect pcregrep to behave like grep
20:11 -!- any97824977 is now known as katsmeow-afk
20:19 < kanzure> oh
20:20 < kanzure> maybe the bond graph people were cheating by making anything "through" to be "division" and anything "across" to be multiplied
20:20 < kanzure> and thus how they assembled their symbolic equations?
20:20 < fenn> like R = V/I
20:20 < fenn> ?
20:22 < kanzure> yes
20:24 -!- any76888520 is now known as katsmeow-afk
20:30 -!- any20062887 is now known as katsmeow-afk
20:32 < fenn> now even python is letting me down
20:33 < fenn> maybe its time to give up and go to sleep
20:34 < fenn> http://pastebin.ca/1411517
20:34 < fenn> for some reason it finds the first 'textarea' but not the second
20:34 < kanzure-> is it escape quoted
20:35 < fenn> eh?
20:35 < kanzure-> the second one is </textarea>, which I guess doesn't matter
20:37 -!- any67958940 is now known as katsmeow-afk
20:37 < kanzure-> fenn: try printing out each time 'textarea' is found and see if it finds it
20:37 < kanzure-> *finds both
20:38 < fenn> er.
20:38 < fenn> i dont know how to do that
20:38 < kanzure-> while line != 'eof' .. line = f.next() print line .. blah blah blah
20:38 < fenn> while True: if f.next().find('textarea'): print line ?
20:38 < kanzure-> ok, close enough
20:39 < fenn> oh. hm
20:39 < fenn> maybe it's all on one line
20:40 < kanzure-> how could that be? 
20:40 < kanzure-> it displays as multiple lines in the browser
20:40 < kanzure-> without <br> elements
20:40 < fenn> ok it's not all on one line
20:40 < fenn> above code snippet just dumps the entire file
20:41 < fenn> oh duh
20:41 < kanzure-> what is line
20:41 < fenn> find is annoying and returns 1 or -1 instead of True/None like you expect
20:41 < kanzure-> (in that one-liner)
20:41 < fenn> i couldnt figure out how to do it in one line so meh
20:41 < fenn> line = f.next()
20:42 < fenn> line.find('textarea') doesn't show the second one
20:43 < fenn> if line.find('textarea') >= 1:
20:45 < kanzure-> ok, try the basic myfile = open(blah), while myfile: line = myfile.readline(); if line.find. ..
20:45 < fenn> all right i figured it out
20:45 < kanzure-> what was it
20:45 < fenn> find is just stupid
20:45 < fenn> find returns the index of the substring blah blah blah
20:45 < fenn> so it's not always 1
20:46 < fenn> i started out using contains() but i guess that doesn't work for strings
20:46 -!- any12058110 is now known as katsmeow-afk
20:46 < kanzure-> I think that's arrays/lists.
20:47 < genehacker> so how terraformable is ganymeade
20:47 < kanzure-> ganymeade?
20:47 < kanzure-> is that your grandma?
20:47 < genehacker> ganymeade
20:47 < genehacker> moon of jupiter
20:47 < kanzure-> hm.
20:47 < genehacker> currentyl has a think oxygen atmosphere
20:47 < genehacker> haven't you watched cowboy bebop?
20:48 < kanzure-> if I tell you that I've only seen three episodes, will you kill me? :(
20:48 < genehacker> no
20:49 < genehacker> that's fine
20:49 < genehacker> I haven't seen any of gundam yet so...
20:50 < genehacker> in bebop ganymeade's been terraformed and is covered in ocean
20:52 < genehacker> doubt that could be done as ganymeade is pretty far from the sun
20:53 < kanzure-> meh. giant mirror reflection network thingies.
20:53 < genehacker> ???
20:53 < genehacker> of course
20:54 < genehacker> covered in water ice, oxygen atmosphere
20:54 < kanzure-> so, genehacker, here's what I've been thinking of for ADL
20:54 < genehacker> OXYGEN ATMOSPHERE?
20:54 < genehacker> bad!
20:54 < genehacker> for life
20:54 < kanzure-> you know how you have to do various calculations to figure out whether or not some machine or scenario is feasible
20:54 < genehacker> ok
20:55 < kanzure-> for instance, the other day I was doing some calculations for waterjet cutters in microfluidic devices
20:55 < kanzure-> and campbell was doing something like pneumatically powered bicycles
20:55 < kanzure-> anyway, 
20:55 < kanzure-> it would be nice to write some software that would make it easier to do those sorts of calculations
20:55 < kanzure-> instead of saying "I NEED A GEAR!", you'd say something like
20:55 < kanzure-> "I NEED A HOOKE's LAW!"
20:55 < kanzure-> er, I mean, "I NEED A SPRING" (not a GEAR)
20:55 < genehacker> pneumatic bicycles? got a link on that
20:56 < fenn> cowboy bebop isnt the most realistic show ever
20:56 < genehacker> indeed fenn
20:56 < kanzure-> http://epicycle.org/2006/06/air-power.html
20:56 < genehacker> no I have a link on pneumatocycles
20:57 < fenn> there's a difference between a back of the napkin feasibility calc and a detailed simulation
20:57 < kanzure-> pneumatocycles, haha
20:57 < kanzure-> fenn, I agree
20:58 < kanzure-> but I still think the same substrate for feasibility calcs can be dumped into finite-element method solvers
20:58 < genehacker> pn3umatic transmission bikes
20:58 < fenn> units works pretty well for napkin calcs
21:00 < genehacker> http://www.act.sys.okayama-u.ac.jp/kouseigaku/research/goto_bike/english.htm
21:02 < genehacker> system error
21:11 < fenn> these people all seem to be ignoring the fact that pneumatics are an inherently inefficient method of transmitting power
21:11 < genehacker> 85%
21:12 < genehacker> so yeah
21:12 < genehacker> gears are near 100
21:12 < genehacker> I think
21:18 < kanzure-> genehacker: do you know of a book or index of simple machines and the simple equations that describe them? especially for some obscure machines.
21:18 < fenn> chain is 98.5%
21:18 < genehacker> yes
21:18 < genehacker> what was that called a gain
21:18 < genehacker> X mechanical movements
21:19 < genehacker> LOW POWER
21:19 < genehacker> it's in the reprap blog
21:20 < fenn> 1800 mechanical movements?
21:20 < genehacker> yes
21:21 < kanzure-> was that from cmu.edu ?
21:22 < genehacker> some reprap guy freed it I think
21:22 < genehacker> Ugh
21:22 < fenn> i dont see any laws of motion, just a picture and short description
21:22 < genehacker> can barely move
21:29 < genehacker> well I'm out
22:29 < kanzure-> hi cis-action 
22:38 < kanzure-> oh
22:39 < kanzure-> I guess it should be possible to consider cell development/growth with magnetic particles or something
22:39 < kanzure-> to stretch the cell in a certain direction by manipulating the magnetic field or rotating the cell.
22:53 < kanzure-> we need a mole in whitesides' group
23:46 < ybit> seems the sleeptracker has been improved
23:46 < kanzure-> the what?
23:46 < ybit> http://www.sleeptracker.com/features.html
23:47 < ybit> i had the standard about 4 years ago and sent it back
23:47 < ybit> might try out a new one
23:47 < ybit> wakes you up when you aren't in deep sleep and now records sleep data
23:49 < ybit> my biggest complaint was that it didn't have a snooze button and also the alarm wasn't loud enough. they have fixed the alarm sound by making it louder and adding the vibrating option, not sure about the snoozing
23:49  * ybit is sending an enquiry to find out atm