--- Day changed Wed May 06 2009
00:35 < kanzure-> um.
01:48 -!- genehacker_ is now known as genehacker
02:29 < kanzure-> odd, the head-pain is happening at the same time tonight
02:32 < kanzure-> hi kardan
02:33 < kardan> hiho
02:33 < kardan> kanzure could you smell that I just was reading on your site .)
02:34 < kanzure-> one of my monitors is always showing who is accessing my site.
02:39 < kardan> thats spooky
02:45 < kardan> im interested in building up osh groups and product distribution here in germony
02:45 < kanzure-> what do you mean distribution?
02:46 < kardan> selling .. promotion
02:46 < kanzure-> to make profit?
02:47 < kardan> to show people that open alternatives are better, and some day hopefully even cheaper
02:47 < kardan> my idea was - i know its not new - to put all 'profit' into osh bank/foundation to support new projects
02:48 < kardan> we already do this with fair trade drinks
02:48 < kardan> you surely know the ccc?
02:49 < kanzure-> yes
02:49 < kanzure-> I'm just very cautious of anyone talking about money 
02:49 < kardan> right .. 
02:50 < kardan> i live without money and dont want any
02:50 < kardan> but i want to bring things forward you know
02:50 < kanzure-> but the thing is that including money or something
02:50 < kanzure-> makes people make stupid decisions
02:50 < kanzure-> for instance, the open source hardware bank people are making some bad choices
02:50 < kanzure-> and don't seem to be technically competent.
02:51 < kardan> ok lets talk about this and possible alternatives
02:51 < kanzure-> alternatives for what though?
02:51 < kanzure-> do you know about SKDB?
02:52 < kardan> money free resource exchange for instance
02:52 < kardan> no, whats SKDB?
02:52 < kanzure-> an open source hardware repository and design tool
02:52 < kanzure-> but think of it also as a 'kernel' of sorts to fablabs or fabratories
02:54 < kardan> ah, kind of core tools to access hardware
02:55 < kardan> a database of projects would be interesting
02:55 < kardan> there are many sites
02:55 < kanzure-> yes, but they all suck
02:55 < kardan> yea
02:56 < kardan> and i resitate to collect them on some wiki page
02:56 < kardan> a real database would be nice
02:57 < kanzure-> right.
02:57 < kanzure-> somebody already started doing that
02:57 < kanzure-> and it was ridiculous because they kept on ignoring me
02:57 < kanzure-> and the work that we're doing in here
02:57 < kanzure-> blah.
02:57 < kardan> mh 'inner' conflicts .. lets overcome it
02:57 < kanzure-> what?
02:58 < kardan> exclusion ..
02:58 < kanzure-> what?
02:59 < kardan> doesnt matter .. just sounded like sb ignored 'you' with intention
02:59 < kanzure-> maybe. or they might just be genuinely stupid.
03:00 < kardan> so there is no good start to work on?
03:00 < kanzure-> sorry?
03:00 < kardan> i mean a really open database which everybody can edit
03:01 < kanzure-> right
03:01 < kardan> with criteria like title, project status, crew, url, description, maybe price ..
03:01 < kanzure-> that's right
03:02 < kanzure-> did you read the metadata todo file on OM?
03:02 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/om.html
03:03 < kardan> you mean http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/8465dc23eb48e332#
03:03 < kanzure-> yes
03:03 < kanzure-> it's kind of old, so some of it may no longer apply
03:03 < kanzure-> but the majority of it does
03:04 < kardan> "Simple script to handle python exception errors" thats great, i would like to think this bigger .. (unix wide)
03:05 < kanzure-> right
03:05 < kanzure-> do you know of package repositories like apt-get and yum or yast?
03:06 < kardan> sure
03:06 < kanzure-> so yes. that, but for hardware.
03:06 < kardan> hehe
03:06 < kardan> > Tie-in of "open source hardware directories" with "one-click
03:06 < kardan> ordering" and sourcing of materials from suppliers 
03:07 < kanzure-> right
03:07 < kardan> that depends on direct cooperation with developers who maintain material lists for their products
03:08 < kanzure-> not necessarily
03:08 < kanzure-> debian has "package maintainers"
03:08 < kanzure-> so that's probably what will happen here
03:08 < kanzure-> because not everybody is willing to package their projects up
03:08 < kanzure-> but if they describe them sufficiently, maintainers can package them up into some somewhat usable form
03:10 < kardan> great. so which informations do we need beneath used materials
03:10 < kanzure-> what?
03:12 < kardan> i mean a list of criteria 
03:12 < kanzure-> for what
03:12 < kardan> for this db
03:12 < kanzure-> criteria for what?
03:12 < kanzure-> I mean, that sounds very vague
03:14 < kardan> like provides or depends
03:14 < kanzure-> yeah, different 'hardware packages' need to specify their hardware dependencies
03:15 < kardan> so users can navigate through list of products
03:15 < kanzure-> sure, why not
03:15 < kardan> which or not only shops but also interesting for developers
03:16 < kardan> s/or/are/
03:17 < kardan> we (brueckenschlaeger) are developing with riseup to improve crabgrass which is a open source social platform
03:17 < kanzure-> what does "social platform" mean
03:17 < kardan> there are ideas on https://we.riseup.net/opensourcehardware
03:18 < kardan> its a website to collaborate
03:18 < kardan> much more powerful than a wiki
03:18 < kanzure-> I don't think a website for collaboration makes since
03:18 < kanzure-> most of my programming is done in a text editor
03:18 < kanzure-> *not* a browser
03:19 < kardan> do you know gobby?
03:19 < kanzure-> no
03:19 < kardan> its a very simple real time collaboration text editor
03:19 < kanzure-> doesn't look like a website to me
03:20 < kanzure-> looks like a standalone app
03:20 < kardan> yep
03:20 < kardan> maybe this makes sense
03:20 < kardan> to develop documents as group in realtime
03:23 < kardan> but more interesting is the database ..
03:24 < kardan> i could set up one for testing
03:25 < kanzure-> maybe you would be interested in packaging up some demos/prototypes?
03:28 < kardan> if you mean to put some projects into the database and maintain their development, yes
03:28 < kanzure-> so at first we're looking to do very simple projects
03:28 < kanzure-> nothing complicated
03:28 < kanzure-> something like "screws" or "fixtures" would be a good start
03:29 < kanzure-> I was doing some IGES demos of different microcentrifuge tubes
03:29 < kanzure-> at the moment I'm sitting around thinking about how to extract linear dynamic equations from the packages
03:29 < kanzure-> between different connections, I mean
03:35 < kardan> maybe i didnt get it, you mean manuals with pictures and step by step instructions?
03:36 < kanzure-> the step-by-step instructions are to be generated by computer
03:36 < kanzure-> that's what I work on in the lab I'm doing research in
03:38 < kardan> so you need a db interface to insert what?
03:38 < kanzure-> sorry?
03:38 < kanzure-> you insert the packages into the repository
03:39 < kardan> one file per project/pkg
03:39 < kanzure-> no, I think there will probably be multiple files
03:39 < kanzure-> but they could be put into a tar file
03:40 < kanzure-> so that ultimately it is indeed a single file
03:40 < kardan> could you draw an example in which format?
03:41 < kardan> because to create such a tar a db would be necessary
03:41 < kanzure-> well, there's a metadata format that I'm working on,
03:41 < kanzure-> but I think that CAD files like IGES or STEP would be the standard 
03:41 < kanzure-> the metadata would refer to surfaces in the CAD files
03:41 < kanzure-> (as well as dependencies, materials, etc.)
03:42 < kardan> so we need a web interface to edit those date
03:43 < kanzure-> not necessarily
03:43 < kanzure-> the web interface can come later
03:44 < kardan> or some other db interface
03:44 < kanzure-> right, maybe some tools.
03:45 < kardan> (as rails developer this is my first choice, because it automatically create web interfaces to edit db entries)
03:45 < kardan> so if you have an example i could configure the fields and set it up
03:46 < kanzure-> no, I don't have the linear dynamic equation thingy worked out yet
04:20 < kardan> i create the model like this http://www.tutorialspoint.com/ruby-on-rails/rails-migrations.htm
04:33 < kardan> kanzure what exactly would be my part in your plan?
04:41 < kanzure-> package maintainer :)
04:41 < kanzure-> or possibly somebody who knows more about linear dynamics than I do?
04:48 < genehacker> linear dynamics
04:49 < genehacker> I'm taking dynamics
04:50 < kanzure-> need a way to represent the dynamics of individual components
04:50 < kanzure-> and then string them together
04:50 < kanzure-> for a symbolic equation of multiple components in some design
04:50 < kanzure-> one way is bond graphs. another way is linear graphs. but I'm thinking there might be some other way to do it.
05:23 < kanzure> "Reception of Pictures from the Weather Satellites Using Homemade Equipment"
05:29 < kanzure> "home-improvement? now it's becoming you-improvement."
05:31 < kanzure>  A Do-it-yourself Expert System for Shopfloor Use
05:31 < kanzure> M Louha - Proc. 5th Int. Symp.‘Automated Systems Based on Human Skill’ …, 1995
05:35 < kanzure> http://www.lavoisier.fr/notice/frEWO3KLRAKRWLKO.html DIY labotomy
05:43 < genehacker> call me back when they do spy sats
05:43 < genehacker> lagrange method
07:10 < kanzure> hm. optical fiber made out of PMMA holes + fructose ?
07:59 < genehacker> Fructose?
11:17 < fenn_> i wish people wouldn't automatically assume 'SQL' or tables and columns when you say database
11:17 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
11:17 < fenn> the whole tables thing is so lame
11:53 < fenn> Commies all over the place, a great worldwide conspiracy to rob Americans of their hard-earned cash. Goddamn open-source software, hardware. Open source mustangs, open source wagons headin out West’, gonna turn this society upside down. Ain’t no hole in hell deep enough for ‘em.
12:21 < kardan_> "Commies all over the place, a great worldwide conspiracy to rob Americans of their hard-earned cash" lol
12:29 < kardan_> thats ridiculous, i really dont know what you are afraid of
12:33 < fenn> i thought it was pretty funny
12:34 < kardan_> what did you read?
12:34 < kanzure> kardan_: do you speak english?
12:35 < kardan_> no i just pretend to
12:35 < kanzure> because I've had trouble communicating with you
12:35 < kardan_> seemed so :)
12:35 < fenn> it was a comment on this page in response to another comment; search for 'patent' for the original comment http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/03/open-source-har/
12:36 < fenn> i hate it when they dont have anchors for comments
12:48 < kanzure> hrm. water-core Fresnel fiber.
12:48 < kanzure> what's wrong with these? why isn't everybody building these for optical data transfer?
12:48 < kanzure> it's a freaking water-core optical fiber ..
12:52 < kanzure> better yet, air-core. yay.
12:53 < fenn> air has the wrong index of refraction
12:53 < fenn> you have to have a higher index at the center
12:53 < fenn> water absorbs IR
12:54 < fenn> i dont know how the spectrum compares to glass
12:54 < kanzure> gimme a chance to read more
12:55 < kanzure> "The fibers produced resemble ring-structured Bragg fibers, and transmission in the hollow core was observed for a range of wavelengths, including the infrared"
12:56 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/Hollow-core%20microstructured%20polymer%20optical%20fiber.pdf
12:59 < kanzure> fenn: that image of the forest of CNTs with microspheres in that lipkowitz-paper was really neat.
13:00 < kanzure> "SEM image of a MWCNT forest seeded with 330 nm polystryene spheres"
13:01 < fenn> yeah
13:08 < kanzure> "Dew should not be confused with guttation, which is the process by which plants release excess water from the tips of their leaves."
13:11 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser)
13:11 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttation
13:53 < fenn> hah. chopped all those knobbly things off my bike tire, now it works
13:56 < kanzure> erm, how long did you spend on that
13:56 < kanzure> maybe you shouldn't tell me
14:00 < fenn> about half an hour
14:01 < fenn> in the process i found that i had two broken spokes
14:10 < kardan__i> kanzure this is what i thought of: http://oshw.0xb5.org/
14:14 < fenn> two projects?
14:14 < fenn> oh this is a demo of the web based database editor
14:14 < kardan__i> the content doesnt matter
14:14 < fenn> the 'depends' field is where things get tricky
14:14 < kardan__i> everybody may edit it atm
14:15 < fenn> it's not so easy as with software where you just say 'requires such n such library, end of story' and it's no big deal for anyone to download that library
14:15 < kardan__i> depends should point to another project
14:15 < kardan__i> yes
14:16 < fenn> we've gone over this at length.. i'd love to share some files with you but my webserver's down
14:16 < kardan__i> at least instructions are necessary how to include other peaces
14:17 < kardan__i> examples would be great. you can send them to kardan@brueckenschlaeger.de
14:20 < fenn> i've been hoping someone would come help write a web interface for a long time now
14:21 < fenn> but the back-end is still barely even started
14:22 < fenn> i dont think a relational database is going to cut it
14:22 < fenn> especially not with distributed development of the database 
14:22 < kardan__i> with such a db interface we can create files of every we like, i just need to write an exporter
14:23 -!- kardan__i is now known as kardan
14:23 < kardan> mh maybe its not best but i have no better solution yet
14:23 < fenn> ok. at worst you could just show some text forms to edit the raw yaml
14:23 < fenn> and store the yaml in the database
14:23 < fenn> but that is sorta pointless
14:24 < fenn> you want to do something like 'select from screws where thread = M8' right?
14:25 < kardan> sort of. especially i think of a material table which enables much more
14:26 < fenn> yeah. it's hard to know where to begin
14:26 < kanzure> "microplasma powder deposition" <- heh.
14:26 < fenn> kanzure has scraped some material databases
14:27 < fenn> i'm not really sure of the utility though since we don't know where to actually get most of them
14:27 < kardan> for instance a motherboard could have some materials as provides and a computer would list it a s needed material / depend
14:27 < kanzure> except for mindat
14:27 < fenn> i mean it wouldn't be hard to go through mcmaster.com or onlinemetals.com and make a reasonably complete materials selection
14:28 < kanzure> soo
14:28 < kanzure> I think I might leave out symbolic equations
14:28 < fenn> oh, that's what we were calling a 'package'
14:28 < kanzure> if I do, it's less awesome
14:28 < kanzure> but doable
14:28 < fenn> kanzure: i think mathematical models are useful but they odnt always exist so it shouldnt be a requirement
14:29 < kanzure> but where would they go?
14:29 < fenn> it's not very hard to implement though, see my screw thread force calculation for example
14:29 < kanzure> if they are available, for, say, a gear?
14:29 < fenn> class method
14:29 < kanzure> that doesn't explain anything
14:29 < fenn> inherit methods from more generic classes for more automagical solution
14:29 < fenn> but you never get to 100% magic
14:29 < fenn> you have to read the manual at some point
14:30 < fenn> i havent read albert's paper
14:30 < kanzure> I don't recommend it
14:31 < kanzure> so, in the case of a-design, the equations were being constructed by taking "through" and "across" variables
14:31 < fenn> my idea of a gear train is it has some function that describes the relationship between input and output positions and forces
14:31 < kanzure> erm
14:31 < fenn> yeah, except without the stupid names like 'through' and 'across' :P
14:31 < kanzure> in the "control point" data structure, basically campbell had some variables that defined the derivatives and integrals for going in certain directions
14:31 < kanzure> well, I was hoping reading his source code would help explain things
14:31 < kanzure> haven't got around to that today yet
14:31 < fenn> reading the source code almost never helps explain things
14:32 < fenn> welp i wish i had read this stuff, now i'm going to go make a fool of myself yes? :)
14:32 < kanzure> not really
14:32 < fenn> campbell called if functional parameter right?
14:32 < kanzure> yes
14:32 < fenn> not control point
14:32 < kanzure> yes
14:33 < fenn> ok so, what is an fp?
14:33 < kanzure> it is like what I am calling 'control point' heh'
14:33 < fenn> is it just some numbers that plug into super-duper universal modeling equations?
14:33 < kanzure> except his FP thingy is tailored for something like 'bond graphs'
14:33 < kanzure> err
14:33 < kanzure> not really
14:33 < fenn> i dont know what a bond graph is either
14:33 < kanzure> so in the FP data structure there is a sub list called MG-change
14:34 < kanzure> and this MG-change structure has a few arrays: through[n], across[n]
14:34 < kanzure> each value in the arrays is an equation
14:34 < kanzure> where n = number of ports or interfaces
14:34 < kanzure> somehow these equations are assembled together by doing certain path traversals
14:34 < kanzure> through the design.
14:35 < fenn> ok
14:35 < fenn> so they just use the same equations for everything, which is what i said
14:35 < kanzure> in this paper, http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Guiding%20conceptual%20design%20through%20behavioral%20reasoning%20-%20Welch%20-%20Dixon%20-%201994.pdf
14:35 < kanzure> they use some sort of 'directional derivative' (pg 4)
14:35 < kanzure> which is the stuff about either directly proportional or inversely proportional
14:36 < kanzure> (or no proportional relation)
14:36 < kanzure> the equations though don't really seem to be per-component/class, but instead per-port.
14:36 < kanzure> which is weird.
14:37 < kanzure> I've been asking campbell why he thinks this bond graph stuff is necessary, and why can't it just work by resolving the units
14:37 < fenn> it shouldnt be proportional vs inversely proportional though; should be function vs its inverse
14:37 < kanzure> well in the equations I mean, er
14:37 < fenn> inverse like f(inverse(x)) = x
14:37 < kanzure> ok, I don't have it
14:38 < kanzure> but one of the examples was something that calculated the theta/angle of a dial
14:38 < kanzure> in a given design generated by the a-design software
14:38 < kanzure> and in this equation for calculating theta,
14:38 < fenn> there were lots of those..
14:38 < kanzure> there was a (1 / spring-constant)
14:38 < fenn> right i remember that
14:38 < kanzure> as opposed to (1 * spring-constant)
14:38 < kanzure> so 1/x is inversely proportional
14:38 < kanzure> 1*x is a proportion
14:38 < kanzure> * so 1/x is an inverse proportion
14:39 < kanzure> and they some how then assemble (1/x)(y)(1/z) together by some path traversal through the design graph? or something?
14:39 < kanzure> but I don't know if that makes sense. I haven't really ever done that when I've done designs ..
14:41 < fenn> man your server is so slow
14:41 < fenn> i think it was this http://heybryan.org/books/papers/campbell-dissertation-diagram-thingy.png
14:41 < kanzure> aha, yes
14:41 < kanzure> er, so, I think it woudl be faster if I set up ProxyPass on one of the servers on the campus
14:41 < kanzure> since I have like 10 MB/sec in and out of the university
14:42 < fenn> the spring constant is inverse because it's in parallel with the lever
14:42 < kanzure> if it was serial, it would not be inverse?
14:43 < fenn> well, that's just my gut reaction
14:43 < kanzure> parallel versus serial is a common theme that campbell was ranting about yesterday when I was talking with him
14:43 < kanzure> *was a common theme
14:43 < fenn> i dont really know what the spring is doing
14:44 < fenn> i suppose i should get down there
14:45 < kanzure> ok, give me a ring if you end up in Mexico or something
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19:35 < kardan> hi #h+
19:38 < kanzure> hello
20:02 < kardan_> i think i will collect projects in the database later. maybe it needs some security features first.
23:46 < kanzure-> in adesign/tests/coordtests/oldtests/test.lisp in the first few lines there's an example of MG-change written out.