--- Day changed Thu May 14 2009
02:28 < ybit> better link of the rooney vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFzJHaGBUTs
02:28 < ybit> been awhile since i heard anything from them
02:33 < ybit> kanzure-: you like the tablet?
02:34 < ybit> i'm sure you do, what don't you like about it?
04:25 -!- any54612239 is now known as katsmeow
05:32 < kanzure> hm.
06:19 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk
06:23 < kanzure> I think I am seeing a reflection in my eyeball of my eyeball.
07:57 < faceface> kanzure: I've seen that too
08:05 < kanzure> ref?
08:28 < kanzure> bwahah
08:28 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/functional-imaging-of-practice-results.png
08:30 < kanzure> (read it not from left to right, but instead right to left.)
09:04 < kanzure> SIAI is pushing funding to OpenCog :-(
12:54 < faceface> ref: my memory at some point, somewhere on the internet/
12:54 < kanzure> not good enough
13:15 < kanzure> "Molecular evolution of microcephalin, a gene determining human brain size"
13:17 < kanzure> hm, and ASPM
13:20 < kanzure> MCPH1, ASPM, CDK5RAP2, CENPJ. 
18:05 < kanzure> xp_prg: I do not understand your question.
18:05 < kanzure> are you assuming that you can change federal law in the civil courts?
18:06 < kanzure> oh. patents are civil. nevermind.
18:07 < xp_prg> yes I am saying that
18:07 < xp_prg> I am saying that DNA and proteins can be viewed as software and therefore can be given a GPL license
18:08 < kanzure> just because you think so doesn't mean everyone else does
18:08 < kanzure> and thus your idea brings zero benefit..
18:09 < xp_prg> kanzure your missing the whole point, lets say I declare a gene, DNA, and/or protein GPL'd, a drug manufacturer/company sues me saying that is illegal, if the judge sides with me, what would that do?
18:09 < kanzure> but that's not how the legal system works ..
18:09 < kanzure> if it worked that way,
18:09 < kanzure> I would just declare all patents invalid
18:10 < xp_prg> kanzure that is how roe v wade worked
18:10 < xp_prg> it was a question of interpretation
18:10 < xp_prg> the legal system does work this way
18:11 < kanzure> but then why is it costing the biobrick foundation tens of thousands of dollars to do it
18:11 < xp_prg> kanzure will you please answer my f******* question please?
18:11 < kanzure> I think you're bullshitting.
18:11 < kanzure> no, your question is irrelevant
18:11 < xp_prg> you can't even answer a what if question?
18:11 < kanzure> I don't care "what if"
18:11 < xp_prg> *sigh*
18:11 < kanzure> because I don't think that scenario is plausible
18:12 < xp_prg> I think it is
18:12 < kanzure> then go make it happen and prove me wrong?
18:12 < kanzure> what's so bad about proving me wrong here?
18:12 < xp_prg> kanzure I hope to do just that, but just answer my question hypothetically please, what would happen?
18:13 < kanzure> put you in the hole because of lawyer fees?
18:13 < xp_prg> what would happen to patents and how proteins, dna is used etc... ?
18:13 < kanzure> what?
18:14 < kanzure> so are you saying that some judge in some random county would suddenly dismantle the patent system?
18:14 < kanzure> that's not how it works..
18:14 < xp_prg> well if a protein/organism was gpl'd all work done on that organism would have to be open to the public
18:14 < xp_prg> massive innovation would occur!
18:14 < xp_prg> kanzure the patent system still exists for software, it isn't dismantled
18:14 < kanzure> exactly
18:15 < kanzure> and it's still a fucking problem
18:15 < xp_prg> so that is not what I am saying!
18:15 < xp_prg> kanzure but it could still be there but GPL would start to eat away at it, like it is in software!
18:15 < kanzure> GPL isn't eating away at the patent system ..
18:15 < kanzure> the patent system is encoded in legal bullshit, the GPL isn't
18:16 < kanzure> anyway
18:16 < kanzure> I don't see how this is different from licensed open source hardware repositories
18:16 < xp_prg> kanzure you amaze me how little you understand software and the gpl
18:16 < kanzure> haha
18:16 < kanzure> go ask stallman :)
18:16 < xp_prg> anway, tired of explaining this to you
18:16 < kanzure> of explaining what?
18:16 < xp_prg> the impac of gpl'd proteins, dna etc...
18:17 < xp_prg> impac = impact
18:17 < kanzure> the impact doesn't matter
18:17 < kanzure> I already know what the impact would be
18:17 < kanzure> we can imagine wonderful scenarios and so on all day
18:17 < xp_prg> what would it be?
18:17 < kanzure> I can imagine very fantastical things
18:17 < kanzure> but your method of getting there does not sound sound
18:17 < kanzure> that's what I'm talking about.
18:17 < xp_prg> well what would be a "sound" approach to gpl a protein, dna?
18:17 < kanzure> why must it be GPL?
18:18 < xp_prg> cuz it is software
18:18 < kanzure> not according to everyone else
18:18 < xp_prg> it is software kanzure
18:18 < kanzure> you could say that all day, but it doesn't mean that they think it
18:19 < xp_prg> well it truely is, it can be proven
18:19 < xp_prg> they are instructions to a finite sequence set of steps, that is a program/softwrae
18:19 < xp_prg> trust me I am a computer scientist I know
18:19 < kanzure> haha
18:19 < kanzure> well beyond the obvious problems of assuming a certificate grants you knowledge
18:19 < kanzure> it's true that sequences are similar to software
18:20 < kanzure> however, the GPL has not been historically applied to abstract sequences of any type
18:20 < xp_prg> I didn't say they are similar to software, that they are software
18:20 < kanzure> oh, so you're going to try to use bullshit niche "I'm in this industry and I know what I'm talking about" arguments
18:21 < kanzure> heh
18:21 < kanzure> kind of a cheat though
18:21 < kanzure> so when they go to say "does this make sense" they'd go to a computer scientist (i.e. you). this is known as pulling strings, or something.
18:21 < xp_prg> kanzure you never get in the spirit of what someone is saying, you constantly belittle them, it gets old man, just understand their idea and comment on it, no big deal
18:22 < kanzure> what do you want me to say
18:22 < xp_prg> how exciting and amazing it would be if proteins and dna could be gpld
18:22 < kanzure> but I already told you about that
18:22 < kanzure> you just don't listen..
18:22 < xp_prg> you told me I was bullshitting and foolish
18:23 < kanzure> go back and read the entire conversation
18:23 < kanzure> I promise you that I told you that I could imagine very fantastical things of exponential development if everybody got along
18:24 < xp_prg> ok, anyway, just might want to analyze your communication approach, it is not "constructive"
18:24 < kanzure> I don't think you actually read my messages
18:24 < kanzure> for instance, did you even see me mentioning the packaging ideas?
18:24 < kanzure> in this conversation?
18:25 < xp_prg> packaging ideas?
18:25 < xp_prg> I am lost
18:25 < kanzure> because you don't read
18:26 < xp_prg> anyway, you kind of understand what I am saying, I hope i can do it :>
18:26 < kanzure> yep
18:26 < kanzure> just don't know why you want to create some silly new initiative whereas you could just work on the things that are already on the todo list which would get the same effect
18:26 < xp_prg> what do you think the best way to get started is?
18:26 < xp_prg> what would get the same effect?
18:26 < kanzure> the open source hardware packaging system..
18:27 < kanzure> how many times do I need to repeat myself
18:27 < xp_prg> do you view dna, proteins as hardware?
18:27 < kanzure> I know that I can mechanically influence them, if that's what you're asking.
18:28 < xp_prg> but the open source hardware packaing system would apply to dna, proteins how?
18:28 < kanzure> by packaging the recipes and instructions ..
18:28 < kanzure> sigh.
18:30 < xp_prg> ok, I like your idea by the way!
18:30 < xp_prg> but can you do that for patented dna/proteins without a violation?
18:31 < kanzure> what do you mean by "violation" specifically
18:31 < xp_prg> if you construct a patented dna/protein with your opensource packaging system, you have to pay the holder of the patent
18:32 < xp_prg> will your opensource packaging system included a paypal function to pay the patent holder?
18:32 < kanzure> yes, but not because of that .. 
18:33 < xp_prg> I don't believe in that
18:33 < kanzure> I don't think it's terrible to have a "buy a kit" button or system implemented
18:33 < kanzure> that's what the austin fabratory is moving towards anyway
18:34 < kanzure> not because of patents though
18:34 < xp_prg> kanzure I am not talking about buying the "kit", I am talking about a procedure where you don't need to buy a kit, but you need to pay the patent holder, will you be handling that?
18:35 < kanzure> ideally I'm working on a way to make that question "not even wrong".
18:35 < xp_prg> kanzure their are patents on procedures
18:35 < kanzure> what does that have to do with what I just said
18:35 < kanzure> do you know what "not even wrong" means?
18:36 < xp_prg> no
18:36 < kanzure> "An apparently scientific argument is said to be not even wrong if it is based on assumptions that are known to be incorrect, or alternatively, theories which cannot possibly be falsified or used to predict anything."
18:36 < kanzure> in other words, I'm questioning the assumptions of the involvement of patents
18:36 < xp_prg> kanzure so your going to avoid patent infringement issues how exactly?
18:36 < kanzure> patents are largely governed throughout INTERPOL or something, and maybe there's a way to work around that
18:36 < kanzure> anyway, that's still up in the air at the moment
18:37 < kanzure> and I haven't heard any better ideas
18:37 < xp_prg> I don't understand your approach to dealing with patent infringement in your opensource hardware packaing system at all
18:37 < kanzure> okay.
18:38 < kanzure> it is a replacement for the patent system. think of it that way.
18:38 < xp_prg> I guess I am dumb, still don't understand it
18:39 < kanzure> well the licensing and legal bullshit is completely separated from the technical aspects anyway
18:39 < kanzure> so don't worry about that at least.
18:39 < xp_prg> kanzure how did you achieve that miraculous separation?
18:39 < kanzure> one's pie-in-the-sky the other is being worked on right now?
18:39 < kanzure> http://openmaterials.org/
18:39 < kanzure> hm.
18:40 < kanzure> oh fuck
18:40 < kanzure> "create a repository (wiki) of different materials, tools, and techniques"
18:40 < kanzure> why a wiki
18:40 < kanzure> fuck fuck fuck
18:40 < xp_prg> kanzure we are so on the same path, you would benefit greatly from gpl'd dna/proteins with your system
18:42 < kanzure> not if you're infringing a patent
18:42 < kanzure> anyway, if we are on the same path why haven't you said so earlier before?
18:42 < kanzure> like, six months ago?
18:42 < kanzure> http://openmaterials.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Pagehttp://openmaterials.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
18:43 < kanzure> hah
18:43 < kanzure> they only have a "main page"
18:43 < kanzure> morons.
18:43 < kanzure> and they're calling themselves "oM". bah!
20:08 < kanzure> hi nsh 
20:11 < boogles> xp_prg: I think GPL DNA/Protiens sound like an interesting idea.
20:12 < boogles> If Monsanto can patent DNA, why shouldn't anyone else be able to GPL it?
20:12 < kanzure> because you're not a lawyer
20:13 < nsh> hey guys
20:13 < kanzure> never!
20:13 < kanzure> on guard
20:14 < boogles> Oh, looks like Duke beat you to it: http://www.genome.duke.edu/centers/cpg/
20:21 < kanzure> good to see Jonathan Cline getting some work done.
20:29 < xp_prg> boogles thanks soooo much!
20:29 < xp_prg> boogles what is the best way to proceed?
20:29 < kanzure> ..
20:30 < kanzure> but why didn't you take my advice?
20:30 < kanzure> apparently my advice doesn't count or something?
20:30 < xp_prg> kanzure me?
20:30 < kanzure> yes
20:31 < xp_prg> the advice to assist you with open hardware packaging?
20:31 < kanzure> well I guess
20:31 < kanzure> but don't do it for me :p
20:32 < xp_prg> well cuz I like gpl and want to gpl dna
20:32 < kanzure> how is that different though
20:32 < kanzure> do you even know about how the GNU project works?
20:32 < xp_prg> yes I have done like 10 papers on it
20:32 < kanzure> orly?
20:33 < xp_prg> yup
20:33 < xp_prg> I have 2 masters
20:33 < xp_prg> both concentred on opensource development
20:34 < kanzure> just goes to show.
20:44 < kanzure> fenn_: are you still breathing?
21:44 < Traveler34> 'travlin
22:12 < kanzure> nice. computational tomographic reconstruction of worm hole networks in farm soils.
22:13 < nsh> what?
22:13 < nsh> oh
22:13 < nsh> worm holes
22:14 < nsh> silly physics appropriating my tokenspace
22:14 < kanzure> oh. erm. um. groundworm holes
22:18 < nsh> i was thinking: damn that's an esoteric paper, kanz
22:18 < nsh> :-)
22:25 < kanzure> weird.
22:25 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&cites=14209644482549009775
22:26 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&cites=2943708744545997766
22:26 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&cites=10058853139342167984
22:26 < kanzure> none of the worms want to be the female
22:37 < fenn_> xp_prg: DNA is "chemistry" which isn't considered an expressive medium, therefore you can't copyright it
22:37 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
22:38 < fenn> nobody invents DNA sequences from scratch anyway though, they're all rewrites of natural sequences in some way
22:38 < fenn> maybe this will change
22:38  * kanzure drops his nucleotides and gasps
22:38 < fenn> the folding problem, you know
22:39 < kanzure> I'm surprised that this television thingy is actually being useful
22:39 < kanzure> the science channel is running a nice show on c. elegans
22:44 < fenn> ok class here is today's assignment http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/distilling_laws.pdf
22:44 < kanzure> hm, it's new
22:45 < kanzure> oh
22:45 < kanzure> he presented on some of this work a few months ago here on campus
22:45 < kanzure> "symbolic regression".
22:46 < kanzure> which, btw, could be done with the A-DESIGN component library, or at least combined with it
22:46 < kanzure> re: my "user draws a curve and then symbolic regression magic happens to figure out what components to use to make up that curve for the performance of some machine design thingy"
22:46 < fenn> exackerly
22:47 < fenn> i think this is more useful for modeling components though
22:47 < kanzure> "mining physical systems" hrm.
22:47 < fenn> instead of painstakingly doing it by hand
22:49 < kanzure> heh at the end they have The Robot Scientist attached as the next paper
22:50 < kanzure> so I'm thinking of something like a green screen + OpenCV :p
22:52 < kanzure> fenn: will you be at the lab tomorrow?
22:53 < kanzure> I haven't dumped text about what I've got from A-DESIGN (basically nothing new except a confirmation that what we were thinking about previously re: terminators was correct)
22:54 < fenn> you could apply that law detection algorithm to mechanical designs, for example to derive that cars have 4 wheels or a lathe bed's thickness is the same as the turning diameter
22:54 < kanzure> er, cars don't need to have four wheels ..
22:54 < fenn> i'll try to be there tomorrow around 2
22:55 < kanzure> ok. if you get there earlier I could get you some food.
22:55 < fenn> i have to talk to rosalie foster about paperwork
22:56 < kanzure> she's the door across from campbell's.
22:56 < fenn> between 1:30 and 3:30
22:56 < fenn> so anyway what time is good for you?
22:56 < kanzure> I have meetings from 3 to 5 with sata.
23:02 < kanzure> hm. sea wasp has 10 ft long tentacles.
23:12 < fenn> oof. took 30 hours on a 32-core system to derive the double pendulum law
23:13 < fenn> i'm thinking a quantum computer could bust some serious ass in the realm of equation deriving
23:13 < kanzure> they might be using a stupid method
23:14 < fenn> you mean a slow implementation?
23:35 -!- duzt is now known as duzt|away