--- Day changed Thu Jun 11 2009 02:52 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:59 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h189n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:18 -!- genehacker_ [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:25 -!- genehacker_ [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:36 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h189n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:36 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40 -!- elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:24 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11 < kanzure> 22:16:01 omg/user: ..."Using this as an interesting starting point, the authors ran another series of 201 integrations where 07:11 < kanzure> the semi-major axis of Mars was changed by up to 30 mm. Within 100Myr of starting these integrations, five 07:11 < kanzure> of the simulations resulted in Mars being ejected from the solar system." 07:11 < kanzure> 22:16:21 omg/user: "All of the remaining 196 cases resulted in various collisions between Earth, Mars, Venus, Mercury, and/or 07:11 < kanzure> the Sun." 07:18 -!- elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:45 < kanzure> Harold Stephen Black’s 1927 famous patent that he wrote on a copy of the New 07:45 < kanzure> York Times) 07:53 < kanzure> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Control_Systems/State-Space_Equations 07:58 < kanzure> "I's & C's with integral causality" 07:58 < kanzure> oh, sorry 07:59 < kanzure> independent energy storage elements: I's & C's with integral causality 07:59 < kanzure> dependent energy storage elements: I's & C's with derivative causality 08:00 < kanzure> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~bryant/courses/me344/DownloadFiles/LectureNotes/StateEqns.pdf 08:00 < kanzure> that was useful. 08:12 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 08:34 < kanzure> "causal analysis" 08:37 < kanzure> The differential equations describing the dynamics of the system are written in terms of the states of the system. All storage elements (I and C) correspond to stored state variables (P for momentum and Q for displacement, respectively) and equations are written for their time derivatives (i.e. effort and flow). These equations are derived in four steps as described below. 08:37 < kanzure> 1. 08:37 < kanzure> Observe what the elements (sources, I's, C's, and R's) are giving to the system and write down their equations looking at the causalities and using variables for strong bonds. 08:37 < kanzure> 2. 08:37 < kanzure> Write down equations for the junctions and the two-port elements for the variables for the strong bonds. 08:37 < kanzure> 3. 08:37 < kanzure> Replace the variables, which are expressed in terms of states in other equations. Continue sorting and replacement till the right side of the entire set of equations are expressed in terms of states and system parameters only. 08:37 < kanzure> 4. 08:37 < kanzure> If some equations are still not completely reduced, there is the existence of some kind of a loop (algebraic loop, causal loop or differential causality, as shall be discussed later). Try solving those as a set of linear equations either through substitution or matrix inversion. 08:38 < kanzure> And finally, erase all trivial equations other than those for derivatives of state variables and write them in terms of state variables. 08:38 < kanzure> http://www.bondgraph.info/about.html#eqn 09:26 -!- ybit [n=ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:54 -!- ybit [n=ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:09 < kanzure> ok it seems to be working today 10:09 < kanzure> does anyone know where I should put my server now that I can't keep it at home? 10:09 < kanzure> fenn: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~suriya/UT-wireless/ 10:33 < kanzure> aha. disabling dynamic word wrap helps in kwrite. 10:55 -!- ybit [n=ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:42 -!- any40177394 [n=someone@75-120-1-122.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:47 -!- samrose [n=samrose@adsl-68-73-194-95.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:50 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-44-144.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52 -!- any25481156 [n=someone@75-120-36-94.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:52 -!- any25481156 is now known as katsmeow-afk 12:53 -!- any50187595 [n=someone@75-120-4-74.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:56 -!- any52762959 [n=someone@75-120-44-228.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:56 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-36-94.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:56 -!- any52762959 is now known as katsmeow-afk 12:58 -!- any46776899 [n=someone@75-120-10-123.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:01 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE775B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:02 -!- any38918056 [n=someone@75-121-62-199.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:02 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-44-228.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:02 -!- any38918056 is now known as katsmeow-afk 13:03 -!- any40177394 [n=someone@75-120-1-122.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05 -!- any74952047 [n=someone@75-120-25-154.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:07 -!- any07454642 [n=someone@75-120-218-15.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:07 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-121-62-199.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:07 -!- any07454642 is now known as katsmeow-afk 13:11 -!- any46309011 [n=someone@75-120-219-74.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:14 -!- any50187595 [n=someone@75-120-4-74.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20 -!- any46776899 [n=someone@75-120-10-123.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23 -!- any49026262 [n=someone@99.194.253.130] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:23 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-218-15.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:23 -!- any49026262 is now known as katsmeow-afk 13:25 -!- any74952047 [n=someone@75-120-25-154.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:41 -!- any46309011 [n=someone@75-120-219-74.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:13 -!- samrose [n=samrose@adsl-68-73-194-95.dsl.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:41 -!- elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:04 < kanzure> http://www.bondgraph.info/about.html has broken links but the images are actually there. so don't be fooled. http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/bondgraphs/eqn/www.bondgraph.info/about.html has the fixed version, or something 17:05 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE775B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE396E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:34 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] --- Log closed Thu Jun 11 17:42:57 2009 --- Log opened Thu Jun 11 19:26:48 2009 19:26 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-72-177-123-170.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:26 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 17 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal] 19:26 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 1 secs 19:26 < kanzure> blargh 19:27 < fenn> you didnt miss anything 19:27 < kanzure> my soul 19:29 < kanzure> todo: check if the morning zipping of GraphSynth 2 works. 19:30 < drazak_> I'm a h+ist that believes in the soul, just a little weird 19:30 < kanzure> http://www.xmms.org/files/1.2.x/xmms-1.2.11.tar.bz2 19:30 < kanzure> drazak_: sorry, what? 19:30 < kanzure> what do you believe in? my translators are down. 19:30 < fenn> drazak_: it's a useful concept that gains much traction among the gentiles 19:31 < fenn> see maslow's hierarchy of needs 19:31 < drazak_> seen it 19:31 < drazak_> I should restate, also 19:31 < drazak_> I believe in shit like psionguild.org 19:32 < fenn> whatever that is, you probably shouldn't have said so 19:32 < drazak_> probably :P 19:35 < fenn> i built several orgone accumulator/amplifiers but they didnt seem to do anything 19:36 < fenn> or at least all the weird coincidences turned out really sucky for me personally 19:37 < drazak_> well, I know nothing about that 19:37 < fenn> it's basically the same thing, but with toys 19:38 < drazak_> right 19:38 < drazak_> that's called radionics 19:39 < drazak_> in our group 19:39 < drazak_> I know shit for shinola about radionics 19:39 < fenn> radionics is more like quantum entanglement stuff 19:39 < fenn> the stuff i was doing was supposed to be like holography 19:39 < fenn> it did make some interesting ice crystals 19:40 < fenn> but that's sort of hard to prove causality 19:41 < fenn> anyway i've taken up diax's rake, which says to believe in something because it's right, not because you like it 19:42 < fenn> not sure what the equivalent philosophy is called in earth terms 19:47 < kanzure> was diax the retarded brother of occam? 19:49 < drazak_> he must have cut himself with his razor, shaving 19:50 < fenn> he was gardening outside the temple, watching the numerologists play dice, then one day he just snapped and beat the crap out of them with his rake 19:55 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:56 < genehacker> holy cow 19:56 < genehacker> high altitude wind power could be cheaper than coal or natural gas 19:57 < kanzure> hehe, sata might vouch for me to get into any class despite pre-reqs 19:58 < genehacker> heh 19:58 < genehacker> awesome 19:58 < kanzure> what should I take 19:58 < genehacker> emailed you 19:59 < kanzure> M 340L ? 19:59 < genehacker> yes 19:59 < genehacker> what classes are you taking? 19:59 < kanzure> M408D, CH301, ME205. 19:59 < genehacker> ME205? 20:00 < kanzure> yeah 20:00 < genehacker> dang you haven't even started taking fun classes yet 20:00 < kanzure> it's really really boring 20:00 < genehacker> chem 301? 20:00 < kanzure> yes :( 20:00 < genehacker> is that O chem? 20:00 < kanzure> no 20:00 < kanzure> I don't qualify for o-chem. 20:00 < kanzure> much less p-chem 20:01 < genehacker> you know what I think this is a conspiracy by the luddites of the world to hold people like us back 20:01 < genehacker> luckily I found a backdoor around it 20:01 < kanzure> pre-reqs suck. 20:01 < kanzure> what is the backdoor? 20:01 < genehacker> to take college in highschool 20:02 < kanzure> that doesn't work if your parents don't let you 20:02 < fenn> http://192.168.1.86/mp3 20:02 < genehacker> yeah and there is only one in texas so 20:02 < kanzure> not true at all, genehacker 20:02 < genehacker> ok 20:02 < kanzure> there are many high schools within universities 20:02 < kanzure> and many community colleges 20:02 < kanzure> but it doesn't seem that parents are interested in letting their kids attend those classes, for some reason 20:03 < genehacker> well anyway you should figure out how to automate your homework 20:03 < kanzure> it only works if I know how to do the homework in the first place 20:03 < genehacker> btw are there any graph grammars for english? 20:03 < kanzure> you mean string grammars? like, regular linguistic grammers 20:03 < kanzure> *grammars 20:03 < kanzure> ack 20:03 < genehacker> yeah 20:03 < kanzure> yeah it's defined in the dictionary 20:03 < genehacker> I'm wondering if it's possible to make an automatic arguing machine 20:04 < kanzure> you mean, me? 20:04 < genehacker> arguments are somewhat algorithmic 20:04 < genehacker> no 20:04 < kanzure> one time I came up with a way to make a bullshit machine 20:04 < fenn> graph grammars for english, heh 20:04 < kanzure> automatic fallacious argument generator 20:04 < drazak_> kanzure: I did ap chem in hs, I get to start with ochem my first year 20:04 < kanzure> drazak_: ap chem conflicted with ap physics in my school. 20:04 < genehacker> I'm thinking of a way to pass english class and automatically disprove online kooks 20:04 < kanzure> and the pre-req dependency graph thingy made it impossible to take it earlier 20:05 < fenn> this is a good one http://192.168.1.86/mp3/Ruth White/Short Circuits/09-solfeggietto.mp3 20:05 < fenn> but the rest of that is painful to listen to 20:05 < genehacker> your link is dead fenn 20:05 < fenn> local net 20:05 < genehacker> oh 20:05 < genehacker> where? 20:06 < fenn> uh, here to there *points* 20:06 < genehacker> also I got a question about automatic design 20:06 < kanzure> yeah? 20:06 < genehacker> so let's say I'm automatically designing a high altitude wind power system 20:06 < kanzure> what is the method of automatic design that you are using? 20:07 < genehacker> how do I get the system to take into account factors like storms and ice accumulation on the blades 20:07 < kanzure> what system 20:07 < genehacker> without a human telling it about it 20:07 < genehacker> any system 20:08 < kanzure> um. what? 20:08 < kanzure> you mean 20:08 < kanzure> "how do you make it take something into account that you don't tell it about" 20:08 < genehacker> how do you take into account factors that are not readily evident 20:09 < kanzure> that's a good question. how do you do that non-automatically anyway? 20:09 < genehacker> things like vibration loosing parts 20:09 < kanzure> once you know how to do it, you can typically automate it 20:09 < genehacker> I don't know 20:09 < drazak_> kanzure: I'm doing ap physics next year 20:10 < kanzure> drazak_: get out of high school or else. 20:10 * drazak_ shrugs 20:10 < drazak_> whatever 20:11 < kanzure> genehacker: what I'm currently working on at the moment is a method of extracting state equations for a particular machine design 20:11 < kanzure> so if you have a resistor hooked up to a motor, what's the equation? 20:11 < kanzure> and if you have a resistor hooked up in parallel to another resistor, what's the equation? (yay kirchoff) 20:12 < kanzure> these aren't external environmental variables of course 20:12 < kanzure> but I think internal stuff is more important for starters 20:12 < drazak_> wow, my dad might not let me go to the lab in boston, because people in the family have issues 20:12 < kanzure> just show up 20:12 < drazak_> right 20:12 < drazak_> go 800mi 20:12 < drazak_> from my parents 20:12 -!- genehacker_ [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:12 < drazak_> with no money 20:13 < kanzure> genehacker: what I'm currently working on at the moment is a method of extracting state equations for a particular machine design 20:13 < kanzure> so if you have a resistor hooked up to a motor, what's the equation? 20:13 < kanzure> and if you have a resistor hooked up in parallel to another resistor, what's the equation? (yay kirchoff) 20:13 < kanzure> these aren't external environmental variables of course 20:13 < kanzure> but I think internal stuff is more important for starters 20:13 < genehacker_> how do I know this? well I saw a pic with what happened to an airplane that went through a thunderstorm 20:13 < drazak_> 1/R+1/R right? 20:13 < genehacker_> how do we get a machine to do that 20:13 < kanzure> genehacker: the search term seems to be "bond graphs" or "linear graphs" 20:14 < kanzure> drazak_: Kirchoff's voltage law (KVL) and Kirchoff's current law (KCL) 20:14 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/bondgraphs/ 20:14 < drazak_> right 20:14 < genehacker_> or with the case of parts vibrating off, how do we get machines to know whether they need to do high computational power testing 20:14 < kanzure> genehacker: see this: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/bondgraphs/eqn/www.bondgraph.info/about.html 20:14 < genehacker_> just wondering 20:14 < kanzure> genehacker: you mean, "are there certain scenarios where it is definitely known that more advanced models are going to be needed" ? 20:15 < kanzure> I think anything involving the maxwell equations might fit under that category 20:15 < kanzure> but that's just because I'm bullshitting 20:17 < genehacker_> so how does the machine know that it needs to do see if it needs to do complex FEM simulation to see if vibration from say a tire is going to destroy a part? 20:17 < kanzure> fenn: Broadcom Corporation NetXtreme BCM5764M Gigabit Ethernet PCIe (rev 10) 20:17 < kanzure> well, there's my ethernet 20:17 < kanzure> "Intel Corporation Wireless WiFi Link 5100" 20:17 < genehacker_> will automated design always be semiautomatic because of factors the machine didn't take into account 20:18 < kanzure> how would it take into account things that are impossible to take into account 20:18 < kanzure> I don't really understand what you're trying to get at 20:18 < kanzure> but yeah, there are complex simulations you can do with FEM 20:18 < kanzure> so let's take for instance a simple spring-and-mass model or something 20:18 < kanzure> and you can model a particular beam as a collection of parts 20:18 < kanzure> rather than a single part 20:18 < genehacker_> humans would take it into account, because they've heard about these things 20:18 < genehacker_> err might? 20:19 < kanzure> but not all humans because some huamns (like me) don't know about them 20:19 < kanzure> *humans 20:19 < kanzure> anyway, 20:19 < kanzure> the beam model would be an example of a part that could be complexificationized into an FEM model 20:19 < kanzure> it's kind of like a "meshing" step 20:19 < kanzure> but this doesn't introduce new variables into the equation .. just more of the same :) 20:19 < genehacker_> so how does a machine do it's own real world testing? 20:19 < kanzure> and so it creates a higher-order model or something 20:19 < kanzure> genehacker: hod lispon had a machine doing real world testing 20:20 < kanzure> basically what he did was have a program that would make hypotheses and predictions about the machine itself 20:20 < kanzure> because it didn't know how many legs it had or something 20:20 < kanzure> so it would try to formulate the best working model for movement or something 20:20 < kanzure> so there was a simulation version and a real-world version for a particular machine with many linear actuators 20:20 < genehacker_> so let's say a gas turbine fails 20:20 < kanzure> it looked hideous IIRC 20:20 < genehacker_> how does the machine figure out why 20:20 < kanzure> by following a procedure 20:21 < genehacker_> the gas turbine has heavily abraded blades 20:21 < kanzure> what procedures do engineers use? 20:21 < kanzure> those are the procedures that the machine would use. 20:22 < genehacker_> what about things like sounds the turbine makes? 20:22 < genehacker_> patterns of abrasion 20:23 < genehacker_> this sounds like a bad bearing, there's more abrasion here because a part is fragmenting 20:24 < fenn> i'm afraid i've been contaminated by "on intelligence" so i can't provide the traditional "hard AI" answer right now 20:24 < genehacker_> will we have to give machines experience packs? 20:25 < kanzure> yes but what do you mean by experience packs 20:26 < genehacker_> a whole bunch of data from a whole bunch of different scenarios 20:26 < kanzure> we have to encode engineering knowledge into computational tools 20:26 < kanzure> so somebody has to learn it once 20:26 < kanzure> then they have to write a program 20:26 < kanzure> that's generally how automated design works at the moment 20:27 < fenn> supposedly (according to kanzure) there's a giant flowchart that the military goes through to figure out what broke when somebody blew up their plane 20:27 < genehacker_> then you run into the problem of having something for everything 20:27 < kanzure> why would you have that problem? 20:27 < fenn> you mean lack of abstraction? 20:27 < kanzure> it should be able to automatically figure out what something to use in the first place 20:27 < genehacker_> I think so 20:27 < kanzure> so what's the problem? 20:28 < genehacker_> how do we take the human out 20:28 < kanzure> by harvesting their brains (for now) 20:28 < fenn> real world testing is not necessarily about failure analysis, it's about making sure the machine functions as intended 20:28 < genehacker_> hmmm... 20:28 < fenn> so there's a limited number of things you have to check (the dependencies/requirements of the machine) 20:28 < fenn> er, and outputs too 20:28 < genehacker_> do they have any good scans of people's brains yet? 20:29 < fenn> no 20:29 < genehacker_> damn 20:29 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:29 < fenn> i'm still rooting for the nanobots myself 20:30 < genehacker_> how do we make a machine capable of encoding engineering knowledge on it's own 20:31 < kanzure> I don't know what that means though 20:31 < kanzure> what is "engineering knowledge" and how do you know if you have it or not 20:31 < kanzure> that sounds very confusing, genehacker_ 20:31 < genehacker_> or should we just diagonal cutter it out and have people input the knowledge 20:31 < genehacker_> good point 20:32 < genehacker_> how does automatic design work? 20:32 < kanzure> it doesn't 20:32 < kanzure> it is vaguely defined 20:32 < kanzure> at the moment we have some tools for creating different assemblies of different components 20:32 < kanzure> but then no way to figure out what the system equations are 20:32 < genehacker_> but not the components themselves? 20:33 < kanzure> not anything good 20:33 < kanzure> there's some crap, but you can't use it because it's all academic bullshit 20:33 < kanzure> and you can't use it because it doesn't capture the right information anyway 20:33 < kanzure> although there was some stuff from A-DESIGN (a component library) that was from a catalog 20:33 < kanzure> that was actually useful 20:33 < genehacker_> so let me put it another way 20:33 < kanzure> unfortunately it doesn't run anymore 20:33 < genehacker_> how do we make a machine that can tell the tone of a paragraph 20:34 < kanzure> what is tone? 20:34 < genehacker_> the mood or feeling of a literary work, as the author gives 20:34 < kanzure> that didn't help 20:34 < genehacker_> yeah it doesn't 20:35 < genehacker_> the example in english class was the usage of the word peruse 20:36 < kanzure> why are you paying for that class 20:37 < genehacker_> peruse is somewhat antiquated so using it makes you sound like you're trying to sound professional but failing at it 20:37 < genehacker_> how do we get machines to know things like that? 20:37 < kanzure> according to who though 20:37 < kanzure> uh 20:37 < kanzure> well it's bullshit so I don't think it counts 20:37 < kanzure> it's not really anything that matters or is right .. 20:37 < kanzure> it's just some crap that they are making you do 20:38 < genehacker_> yeah it is 20:38 < genehacker_> so how do we get a machine to know if it is sounding like it's joking ? 20:39 < kanzure> are you reading questions from your homework? if so, stop it. 20:39 < fenn> genehacker_: read "on intelligence" which i can provide the pdf if you like 20:39 < fenn> or not 20:39 < genehacker_> my solution is to have the machine look at word usage patterns from websites lots of people go to 20:40 < genehacker_> and copy those 20:41 < fenn> ever seen megahal? (hidden markov model chatbot) 20:41 < genehacker_> no 20:41 < fenn> its not as cool as you think 20:41 < fenn> there is no magic bullet 20:41 < genehacker_> indeed there isn't 20:41 < genehacker_> you'd probably end up with a lot of slang 20:42 < genehacker_> can we get machines to read papers and extract useful information from them is what i'm thinking 20:43 < genehacker_> semantic web stuff 20:43 < kanzure> yeah I have some stuff for automatically searching for interesting papers 20:43 < kanzure> but it doesn't work yet :) 20:43 < kanzure> but it also isn't "analyzing english"- it doesn't have to do that .. 20:43 < kanzure> it just needs to go over the citation/reference-topology and look for regularities in "really super interesting mountains of papers" or whatever 20:44 < kanzure> (this kind of goes back to my google scholar "search assistant" plans) 20:45 < genehacker_> so do we just a whole lot of people to "wiki up" knowledge for an automatic design engine? 20:46 < kanzure> hell no :) 20:46 < kanzure> but 20:46 < kanzure> look into debian packages 20:46 < kanzure> (google it) 20:47 < kanzure> colorollary to the anthropic principle: it's weird that there is no magic bullet. 20:50 < genehacker_> well do we have any other approach that works? 20:51 < fenn> SCIENCE! 20:52 < drazak_> yes 20:55 < genehacker_> well do you have a framework for SKDB yet? 20:55 < kanzure> almost there. I can taste it. 20:55 < kanzure> the bond graph and linear graph stuff is like the last on the list 20:55 < fenn> not for the next 3 months 20:55 < fenn> too busy with ADL crap 20:56 < genehacker_> HOLY COW 20:56 < genehacker_> wolfram alpha knows molecules 20:58 < genehacker_> http://www06.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=pentaerythritol 20:58 < genehacker_> has handy property data 20:59 < genehacker_> perhaps we could use wolfram 21:00 < katsmeow-afk> To see full output you need to enable Javascript in your browser 21:01 < genehacker_> what? 21:01 < katsmeow-afk> To see full output you need to enable Javascript in your browser 21:01 < genehacker_> I see everything 21:02 < katsmeow-afk> ok 21:03 < genehacker_> I have 21:03 < genehacker_> kanzure how do I use the library proxy? 21:04 < kanzure> http://ezproxy.lib.utexas.edu/login?url=http://scholar.google.com/ 21:04 < katsmeow-afk> wolfram screws up "cow", as do most engines, "placental" is not a term one would use to ask where the cows are at a state fair 21:05 < genehacker_> woohoo 21:05 < genehacker_> I don't care about cows 21:05 < katsmeow-afk> wants an eid and password 21:05 < katsmeow-afk> i don't care a lot about cows, but i like accuracy in thedata for things i do care about, but know less about 21:06 < katsmeow-afk> if it cannot get "cow" right, how do i know it got something else right? 21:07 < genehacker_> here's the deal 21:07 < genehacker_> Wolfram alpha knows information about chemicals 21:07 < kanzure> "knows" ? 21:07 < kanzure> what are you talking about 21:07 < kanzure> it's just a database 21:08 < genehacker_> guess so 21:08 * katsmeow-afk backs outa the channel s l o w l y 21:08 < genehacker_> but you know all those papers on GNA phosphoramidite synthesis? 21:09 < kanzure> what about it 21:09 < genehacker_> well now I can sort of understand them 21:09 < kanzure> why not just use chemspider 21:09 < kanzure> or wikipedia 21:10 -!- anthonyl [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:11 < genehacker_> http://www06.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=4%2C5-dicyanoimidazole 21:11 < genehacker_> alpha uses an awful lot of sources 21:13 < genehacker_> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=4%2C5-dicyanoimidazole&go=Go 21:13 < genehacker_> that's why 21:13 < kanzure> what about chemspider 21:14 < genehacker_> trying it 21:19 < genehacker_> that's much better than wolfram 21:19 < genehacker_> but it doesn't tell me how to make it 21:20 < genehacker_> and wolfram doesn't either 21:22 < genehacker_> is there anything that does? 21:33 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@32.169.12.50] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:34 < fenn> how about an organic chemist 21:34 < DrTread> organic chemists smell bad. :( 21:35 < fenn> you could say that about most people 21:35 < genehacker_> heh 21:35 < genehacker_> organic chemists also tend to die of horrible nasty cancers 21:35 < DrTread> true. 21:36 < DrTread> chemists have the highest suicide rate amongst the sciences. 21:37 < genehacker_> hmmm... 21:37 < genehacker_> now how do I make some O6 benzylguanine? 21:37 < DrTread> avoids the cancer problem 21:38 < DrTread> find an organic chemist. 21:39 < genehacker_> or use the internet 21:40 < genehacker_> yay google 21:41 < DrTread> ok, how do you do it? 21:42 < genehacker_> what? 21:42 < genehacker_> I just type in a chemical name into google with the word synthesis after it 21:42 < DrTread> make benzyl guanine 21:43 < DrTread> I figures that. sorry, I am on mobil phone. don't want to google. 21:44 < kanzure> hello DrTread 21:45 < DrTread> hello, kanzure. 21:46 < genehacker_> tornado watch 21:46 < genehacker_> ??? 21:46 < DrTread> kanzure, had any interest in building a DIY lazor cutter? 21:46 < genehacker_> ok this benzylguanine stuff is the main component of GNA phosphoramidites 21:46 < genehacker_> YES 21:47 < DrTread> ORLY? Ok. let's build. 21:47 < fenn> can 100W do thin metal? 21:47 < genehacker_> I believe so fenn 21:47 < DrTread> but first, $2000 in parts 21:48 < genehacker_> yes 21:48 < DrTread> meh. not really. but how thin & what metal? 21:48 < fenn> stainless, say 0.005" 21:48 < genehacker_> ponoko 21:48 < genehacker_> what ponoko has 21:48 < DrTread> stainless, no. Al, yes 21:49 < fenn> i'd expect Al to be harder to cut 21:49 < fenn> higher heat dissipation 21:49 < fenn> and more reflective 21:49 < DrTread> both of them need a blackener. 21:49 < genehacker_> http://www.ponoko.com/make-and-sell/materials 21:49 < genehacker_> ponoko got rid of metal? 21:50 < genehacker_> DAMN YOU PONOKO! 21:50 < DrTread> oh noze! 21:50 < genehacker_> Now I can't make a stirling engine business card 21:50 < DrTread> Online Metals or ASAP Source 21:51 < DrTread> LOL 21:51 * fenn snickers @ windows crash on news/weather channel 21:51 < genehacker_> oh noes! 21:51 < genehacker_> tornado must have hit it 21:52 < DrTread> the double wall cloud was scary. no tornados here @ 40th & Guadalupe 21:53 < genehacker_> dang 21:53 < genehacker_> that's not too far from where I am 21:55 < DrTread> hanging out with friends here. meanwhile, tornado is hitting my house in Bastrop. 21:57 < genehacker_> that sucks 21:57 < DrTread> well, I don't know that for sure. 21:59 < genehacker_> hmm... patents on how to make certain chemicals 21:59 < genehacker_> useful 21:59 < DrTread> expired patents? 22:00 < genehacker_> don't know 22:00 < genehacker_> but it tells how to synthesize certain precursor chemicals necessary for GNA phosphoramidites 22:00 < DrTread> patents don't mix well with open source. :-( 22:01 < genehacker_> it doesn't matter because we aren't selling stuff 22:01 < genehacker_> you know what I want to do right? 22:01 < kanzure> it does matter though 22:01 < kanzure> because they have the guns 22:01 < kanzure> and will shoot you 22:01 < genehacker_> I want to make DNA synthesizer 22:01 < DrTread> Hmmmm. ask your lawyers. 22:01 < genehacker_> it's from 1997 22:02 < genehacker_> well they can't stop bittorrent? 22:02 < genehacker_> so do you know what basic machines are involved in organic chemistry? 22:02 < DrTread> true. but chem labs move slower than hax0rz 22:03 < genehacker_> IE distillers and stuff 22:03 < DrTread> I do. 22:03 < genehacker_> which is why I want to make a tiny chemistry lab that fits on a desktop 22:03 < genehacker_> you do? 22:03 < genehacker_> mind elaborating? 22:03 < DrTread> I do know someone who has that equipment. 22:03 < genehacker_> I don't want to borrow the equipment 22:04 < DrTread> are enzymes involved in the synthesis? 22:04 < genehacker_> I want to know what they do 22:04 < genehacker_> unfortunately not 22:04 < DrTread> ah. 22:04 < genehacker_> just a whole bunch of crazy stuff about mixing this and that in different solvents and atmospheres 22:04 < genehacker_> or something like that 22:05 < DrTread> yes, well, we can discuss that over coffee. I'd 22:05 < DrTread> need details of the synthesis. 22:06 < genehacker_> hold up 22:06 < genehacker_> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5663338/description.html 22:06 < DrTread> hard to do on my iPhone. :) 22:07 < genehacker_> (S)-9-(3-(4,4′-Dimethoxytrityloxy)-2-hydroxypropyl)-O6-benzylguanine 22:07 < genehacker_> (3). Compound 1 (3.10 g, 12.8 mmol) was partially 22:07 < genehacker_> dissolved in anhydrous DMF (25.0 mL) under a nitrogen atmosphere. 22:07 < genehacker_> NaH was added (105 mg, 2.63 mmol, 60% in mineral oil), 22:07 < genehacker_> and the solution was allowed to stir under nitrogen for 1 h. In a 22:07 < genehacker_> separate flask, compound 2 (4.60 g, 12.2 mmol) was dissolved in 22:08 < genehacker_> 26.0 mL of DMF, added to the first solution, and then heated to 90 22:08 < genehacker_> °C overnight. The next morning, the solution was cooled, all solvent 22:08 < genehacker_> removed, and the resulting oil coevaporated with toluene, redissolved 22:08 < genehacker_> in ethyl acetate, and concentrated again. The product was 22:08 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@32.169.12.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08 < genehacker_> purified via column chromatography starting with 2:1:0.01 hexanes/ 22:08 < genehacker_> acetone/Et3N, then eluting with 3:2:0.01 hexanes/acetone/Et3N to 22:08 < genehacker_> afford compound 3 as a light yellow foam (3.73 g, 47%): 22:08 < genehacker_> (S)-9-(3-(4,4′-Dimethoxytrityloxy)-2-hydroxypropyl)guanine 22:08 < genehacker_> (4). Compound 3 (3.30 g, 5.3 mmol) and Pd/C (1.70 g, 10% 22:08 < genehacker_> on carbon) were suspended in EtOAc (125 mL), and the solution 22:08 < genehacker_> was purged with nitrogen, then hydrogen, and allowed to stir under 22:08 < genehacker_> a hydrogen atmosphere. After 3 h, TLC showed completion of the 22:08 < genehacker_> reaction, and the mixture was filtered through Celite and washed 22:08 < genehacker_> with 5:1 CH2Cl2/MeOH to afford compound 4 as a tan solid (2.73 22:08 < genehacker_> g, 97%): 22:08 < genehacker_> that's all I'm posting 22:08 < genehacker_> oops 22:08 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@32.169.12.50] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:09 < DrTread> the website killed the app. 22:09 < DrTread> sorry. 22:09 < genehacker_> was it all the stuff I posted? 22:09 < DrTread> will look @ it later, if you email link 22:09 < genehacker_> are you a chemist of some sort? 22:10 < DrTread> I am. inorganic. 22:10 < genehacker_> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo900365a 22:10 < genehacker_> ah 22:11 < DrTread> my company (me) has some modest equipment. 22:11 < DrTread> but I know enough organic chem to do many things. 22:11 < genehacker_> then you might not be able to figure out our evil world domination plan that involves a GNA synthesizer capable of synthesizer large genomes 22:12 < genehacker_> *synthesizing 22:12 < DrTread> that's a bit beyond my ken, yes. 22:13 -!- ybit [n=ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14 < genehacker_> well It's a bit beyond mine too so... 22:14 < DrTread> by large, how many gigabases? 22:14 < genehacker_> 3 megabases 22:14 < genehacker_> in one run 22:15 < genehacker_> or wait was that gigabases? 22:15 < DrTread> ah. ok. where will you put them? 22:15 < genehacker_> 31,457,280 bp 22:16 < genehacker_> what do you mean? 22:16 < DrTread> in bacteria? mice? people? 22:16 < genehacker_> So I figured out how to make a DNA synthesizer, but not the chemicals for it 22:17 < genehacker_> anything DrTread 22:17 < genehacker_> *anything I want to put them in 22:17 < genehacker_> but most likely bacteria 22:17 < genehacker_> for compiling enzymes and genes 22:17 < genehacker_> instead of buying them, why not download and compile them? 22:18 < DrTread> ok. it's pretty much impossible to get the chemicals without a business address. 22:19 < DrTread> even simple raw materials. 22:19 < genehacker_> but if I ever figure out how to make it work, I'd like to synthesize mycoplasma laboratorium and boot it up 22:19 < genehacker_> exactly 22:19 < genehacker_> that's exactly the reason I want to make a tiny chemical factory 22:19 < DrTread> move to Brazil. it's not as restrictive there. :) 22:20 < genehacker_> I can't 22:20 < DrTread> don't speak portugese? 22:21 < genehacker_> no I don't 22:21 < DrTread> a guy I met a few years ago is from there, but moved to the US. he had to give up his lab. 22:22 < genehacker_> you see I want a chemical universal constructor 22:22 < DrTread> it is much easier fir him to build rail guns here than to do chemistry. 22:22 < genehacker_> wherein we can put in the chemicals we can buy or stuff present and nature and get the stuff we want 22:23 < DrTread> there are many ideas for that around. not so many actual machines, however. 22:24 < genehacker_> really? 22:24 < DrTread> molecular machines that use air & acetylene as raw materials 22:25 < genehacker_> that's not what I have in mind 22:26 < DrTread> you want to create life in your laboratory? 22:28 < genehacker_> yes 22:28 < DrTread> meh. life is overrated. :-/ 22:28 < genehacker_> but I'm thinking of having a bunch of miniaturized versions of things like downcells, distilling machines, and what not 22:29 < genehacker_> downs cell requires gravity though it appears though... 22:30 < DrTread> centerpetal force is indistinguishable from gravity. 22:31 < genehacker_> true 22:31 < DrTread> so if you want to do it in orbit...it's ok 22:32 < genehacker_> but that adds complexity to things 22:32 < genehacker_> if I'm building a tiny downs cell 22:33 < genehacker_> it may not work very well because it's on scale where gravity doesn't play much of a role 22:33 < DrTread> ah. microfluiducs. ok. 22:34 < genehacker_> yeah but metallic sodium is fun enough to warrant something large 22:35 < genehacker_> maybe something the size of coke can 22:35 < DrTread> so use centrifuges. 22:35 < genehacker_> ok 22:35 < DrTread> yes, the more sodium, the better. 22:36 < genehacker_> any way could you name a couple of useful chemical processes for producing basic chemicals? 22:37 < DrTread> call Signa/Aldrich? 22:37 < genehacker_> or what are some chemicals one must absolutely have? 22:38 < DrTread> water 22:38 < genehacker_> that's abundant 22:38 < genehacker_> no need to synthesize it 22:38 < DrTread> beyond that, it depends 22:38 < genehacker_> sulfuric acid? 22:38 < genehacker_> potassium perchlorate? 22:39 < genehacker_> Sodium Hydride? 22:39 < DrTread> not so much perchlorate. 22:39 < DrTread> sodium hydride? nah 22:39 < genehacker_> ammonia of course 22:40 < DrTread> yes. ethanol, acetone, drying agents 22:41 < genehacker_> those are available so those aren't so bad 22:41 < DrTread> true. but buying too much acetone can land you on DEA watch lists 22:42 < DrTread> the country is insane. 22:42 < genehacker_> sweet 22:43 < genehacker_> bacterial fermentation for producing large quantities of acetone 22:44 < DrTread> good. I am all for creating my own economy & industry ouside of the mainstream. 22:44 < DrTread> because the mainstream isn't doing anything worthwhile. 22:44 < genehacker_> And I want self-replicating doomsday space robots 22:46 < DrTread> ah, star trek. the uss constellation under the command of commodore decker. 22:46 < genehacker_> ??? 22:47 < DrTread> the doomsday machine had a hull of neutronium. 22:47 < genehacker_> oh cool 22:47 < DrTread> oh, sorry. random STTOS reference. :) 22:49 < genehacker_> hmmm... hydrogen peroxide producing bacteria... 22:50 < DrTread> cool! peroxide is usually bad. 22:51 < genehacker_> not to bacteria that produce it and catalase 22:51 < genehacker_> then dump the H2O2 out to kill other bacteria 22:52 < DrTread> I figured. there has to be a reason to make the stuff. 22:53 < DrTread> it's rather expensive to produce if you're an organism. 22:54 < genehacker_> phosphorous compounds are useful 22:55 < katsmeow-afk> i wanna know how to make ammonia from either urine, or atmospheric nitrogen and hydrogen 22:55 < DrTread> yep. we couldn't do much without it. 22:57 < DrTread> some bacteria are good @ making ammonia out of urine. ever smell a diaper? 22:57 * katsmeow-afk nods 22:58 < DrTread> atmospheric n2 + h2 requires high pressures & a rusty chain as a catalyst. 22:58 < katsmeow-afk> why chain? 22:59 < DrTread> it fits in the reactor well. 22:59 < katsmeow-afk> o 23:00 < DrTread> rumor has it that rusty chain was the first catalyst way back when. 23:00 < kanzure> well. 23:00 < kanzure> http://pygame.org/project/900/ 23:00 < kanzure> I'm addicted. 23:00 < DrTread> could be a ChemE legend. 23:01 < DrTread> oh, kanzure. you should work on more lofty goals. :-) 23:02 < kanzure> never underestimate the power of randomly generated maps for 2D top-down space shooter thingies 23:02 < kanzure> I was thinking of implementing a way to destroy the walls like in the invaders games 23:03 < DrTread> kanzure did you get a reply from travis? 23:04 < kanzure> no 23:04 < genehacker_> damn 23:05 < genehacker_> I just had a spider under my microscope but it got away 23:05 < kanzure> the map generation algorithm kind of sucks 23:05 < genehacker_> oh well 23:05 < kanzure> but I guess it can be improved 23:05 < DrTread> I had a paramecium under mine last week 23:05 < kanzure> who hasn't. 23:05 < DrTread> it died. :( 23:06 < genehacker_> well why don't you improve the algorithm, change the graphics, and sell it for the iphone 23:06 < DrTread> I cried. 23:06 < genehacker_> well you could just grow them in cultures 23:07 < DrTread> yeah, kanzure. make an iPhone game. make insane $$, then fund our projects. 23:07 < kanzure> genehacker_: why are you always about selling stuff on the iphone 23:07 < genehacker_> oh and that mycoplasma laboratorium bacteria? it could be blue 23:07 < kanzure> why does everyone assume you can make insane money on the iphone 23:07 < DrTread> ttyl. got to go. 23:07 < genehacker_> because a small group of people have made lots of money on the iphone and this small group has been highly publicized 23:08 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@32.169.12.50] has quit [] 23:09 < genehacker_> well I probably should work on homework 23:15 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@32.169.187.251] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:16 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@32.169.187.251] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20 -!- genehacker_ [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"] 23:31 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE396E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 23:37 < kanzure> pymunk is pretty neat too 23:37 < kanzure> http://www.pygame.org/project/780/ 23:42 < kanzure> pybox2d is nice too 23:48 < kanzure> although the theo jansen mechanism example doesn't work because of some poorly specified bit depth field or something