--- Day changed Sat Jun 13 2009
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01:36 < katsmeow-afk> http://ceramicartsdaily.org/methods-techniques/the-printed-pot/
01:38 < katsmeow-afk> According to ScienceDaily, group of researchers at University of Washington have come up with a formulation of artist's ceramic powder to replace 3D printing media, which can cost $30-50 per pound. They are distributing their recipe online for free (which can produce a pound of material for less than a dollar). The pots pictured above were made in a 3D printer using their ceramic mix.
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01:42 < nsh> nice
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01:45 < nsh> the sciencedaily link: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090331153010.htm
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01:46 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
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09:17 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: yeah, we posted that to openmanufacturing a few months ago, including the recipe
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13:40 < kanzure> bpython - interactive python interpreter (via ncurses) with buffer saving and other fancy IDE tricks.
13:44 < kanzure> install script (trivial): http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/scripts/bpython-install
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13:48 < kanzure> scp seems to hang even though it has transferred all of the bits for a file to one of the lab servers. what's up with that?
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14:09 < kanzure> updated: http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/scripts
14:09 < kanzure> updated: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/scripts/ (has stuff other than what's listed on that page, however)
14:29 < kanzure> fenn got lost in the forest. he's not much of a ninja.
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14:37 < fenn> i was hiding in my secret ninja lair on the mountainside
14:37 < kanzure> why don't I have a secret ninja lair
14:41 < kanzure> todo: show that maxwell gave up his aether crap. (from logs with thebryanbishop)
14:41 < kanzure> ether, aether, dimethyl ether
14:43 < kanzure> sleeping gas formulas? was it nitric oxide?
14:45 < kanzure> relativistic frame dragging
14:45 < kanzure> s/nitric/nitrous/
14:45 < kanzure> nitric oxide is the toxin :)
14:45 < kanzure> carcinogen thingy
14:46 < kanzure> added parsemeetlog.pl to http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/scripts/ 
14:51 < kanzure> fenn and I were talking about maxwell and his interest in the aether- so here are my old (old) notes on that topic
14:51 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/greplog/maxwell.txt
14:54 < kanzure> or in HTML: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/greplog/maxwell.txt.html
14:54 < kanzure> (somewhat more viewable)
15:03 < kanzure> 2006-12-30.154919.txt:(23:26:31) kanzure: `Ironically, the reason given here by Maxwell for being dissatisfied with the distant-action approach to electromagnetism was actually based on a misunderstanding, as Maxwell later acknowledged. He originally thought a velocity-dependent force law must automatically violate the conservation of energy. Indeed, the first such law to be proposed (by Gauss) was subject to this objection. However, the force law of Weber fully satisfies the conservation of energy, so Maxwell’s original stated motivation was unfounded. After realizing this, he amended his reasons for opposing distant action theories. In later treatments he emphasized the requirement (as he saw it) for the electromagnetic energy (and momentum) emitted by one body and absorbed some time later by another body to have some mode of existence between the emission and absorption events.` Wasn't that intermediate known as the photon?
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15:07 < kanzure> organelle cult
15:09 < kanzure> 2007-04-02.174157.txt:(23:08:31) kanzure: `James Clerk Maxwell (1831-79) set out to make Faraday's ideas quantitative. He described the lines of force using Newtonian mechanics, envisioning them as rotating tubes of fluid (the ether) which had the properties required by Faraday: the rotation would cause the tubes to expand laterally and contract longitudinally. The resulting set of only four equations ("Maxwell's equations") described all known electric and magnetic phenomena exactly. Maxwell, however, realized that the enormous machinery with which he had filled all space was not an essential part of his theory, and eventually just used his equations as though the machinery did not exist. This is how we use his equations today. The relationship between the original machinery and the final equations was not without its detractors, however. One French reader stated that when he started to read Maxwell's work he expected to find himself in the midst of the quiet groves of electromagnetic theory, and instead found himself inside a factory! [Williams, p.122].`
15:09 < kanzure> Maxwell abandoned it, in other words.
15:12 < samrose> anyone here ever get nanoengineer running on ubuntu?
15:12 < kanzure> er, can somebody point me to a formulation of QFT that does not rely on virtual particles as the mechanism of action?
15:12 < kanzure> samrose: what is nanoengineer?
15:13 < samrose> this is as close as I can find http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dc26889x_102hqxfw2cg
15:13 < samrose> kanzure here's a quick overview http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=185027
15:13 < samrose> kind of neat, just wanted to explore
15:16 < kanzure> oh, didn't know drexler had a thingy
15:16 < kanzure> huh
15:17 < kanzure> something I've been meaning to get is the recent DNA origami folding simulation software
15:17 < kanzure> it's open source software, I think I made a few links in a diybio post once
15:18 < samrose> that is drexler eh? didn't realize
15:18 < fenn> whois samrose
15:18 < fenn> heh
15:19 < fenn> samrose: i'm curious where you live semi-permanently.. i know you were at marcin's place for a while
15:19 < samrose> fenn: never was at marcin's place. I help Marcin remotely when I have time
15:19 < samrose> I am in Michigan
15:19 < samrose> I travel a lot though
15:19 < samrose> at times
15:20 < samrose> I am near Lansing, MI
15:21 < samrose> gotta go, later!
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15:25 < kanzure> wget -m -np http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/images/stories/gallery/
15:39 < kanzure> "super velcron" should be uploaded somewhere eventually
15:39 < kanzure> vecron
15:39 < kanzure> with my super-awesome partial wall blasting thingy that doesn't actually work
15:44 < kanzure> todo: rsync on papers folder
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15:53 < PeerInfinity> hi Marino :)
15:53 < Marino> hey Peer. :)
15:53 < PeerInfinity> go ahead and introduce yourself, someone will probably reply eventually
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15:54 < Marino> Hey guys, I'm friends with Peer. :)
15:54 < Marino> :3 
15:56 < PeerInfinity> Marino wants to know how to get into working on BCIs for real
15:57 < PeerInfinity> Marino is also cofounder of transhumanistforums.com :)
15:58 < Marino> Yep. I'm still in highschool and I was just wondering how to get into a solid career of developing BCIs - I plan on dual majoring in Cognitive Psychology and Information Science / Computer Science (haven't decided yet) at Northeastern University in Boston. 
16:00 < PeerInfinity> heh... I was under the impression that most people working on BCIs weren't doing it because they wanted a career, but because they wanted the BCIs for themselves...
16:00 < Marino> Nope. Impression shattered. :P
16:01 < PeerInfinity> :P
16:01 < PeerInfinity> also, I was assuming that BCIs would most likely arrive near the end of the transition to post-scarcity
16:02 < PeerInfinity> which might end up rendering traditional careers obsolete, or at least not necessary for survival
16:04 < Marino> BCIs already exist
16:04 < PeerInfinity> (I think most of the people in this chatroom only check the chatroom a few times per day, because they're busy doing other important stuff, so be prepared to wait a while for a reply)
16:04 < Marino> but are primarily used for locked-in patients, which is very sensible
16:05 < kanzure> hello
16:05 < PeerInfinity> hi kanzure :)
16:05 < kanzure> BCIs do already exist, that's true, but they do not do what scifi authors want them to do
16:06 < PeerInfinity> (kanzure, aka Bryan, is the main guy in charge of this chatroom, and the whole hplusroadmap movement)
16:06 < Marino> hey kanzure :)
16:06 < kanzure> yay I'm a movement apparently
16:06 < fenn> i want to close my eyes and read and write
16:06 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/ <- various papers on BCIs 
16:07 < fenn> not necessary to do invasive brain surgery to get that level of interaction
16:07 < fenn> the forehead tactile stimulator for example might be up to some of it
16:07 < kanzure> some of us want to chat with the receptors (or, deceptors) on neurons
16:07 < Marino> After watching the Michio Kaku documentary titled 2057 I see the great potential for BCIs in daily life. I haven't read much sci-fi so I haven't read much about BCIs otherwise. 
16:08 < Marino> thanks Bryan, I will read those
16:08 < kanzure> Kaku has been doing some television stuff for popular science
16:08 < kanzure> I'm not sure I'd recommend any of it :/
16:08 < Marino> why? :O haha
16:09 < Marino> He IS a THEORETICAL physicist after all. :P
16:10 < kanzure> that shouldn't stop him from doing better. he got to talk with all of those interesting people, and didn't once take their source code? or their schematics?
16:12 < Marino> How do you know he didn't? But yeah, that wasn't his job - his job is a science popularizer and professor. Not to steal code from unsuspecting researchers. :P
16:12 < kanzure> if he did, then it seems like he's not sharing, so therefore he's not playing fair
16:12 < kanzure> anyway
16:13 < Marino> yeah :(
16:13 < kanzure> why do you want a "career"
16:13 < kanzure> and what is a "career"?
16:13 < fenn> that's some strange logic
16:13 < fenn> "if he did, therefore xyz"
16:14 < kanzure> "oh look at what these people are doing, isn't it cool- so I'll take their work- but I won't give you any, so haha"
16:14 < kanzure> I mean, if he did, I haven't seen any signs that he is sharing the stuff he stole
16:14 < Marino>  Oxford English Dictionary: A career is an individual's "course or progress through life"
16:14 < fenn> why do you think he stole code/schematics?
16:14 < kanzure> I don't think he did, but it would have been a good idea for him to do that
16:15 < fenn> "stole" being somewhat of a useless concept in pure science
16:15 < kanzure> Marino: I don't think that helped :(
16:15 < Marino> <_< I knew knew there were Kaku conspirators
16:15  * fenn conspires to commit senseless acts of Kaku
16:15 < Marino> Here's another then: The sum total of your life experiences including education, paid and unpaid work, and community, volunteer and family activities.
16:15 < kanzure> is that some sort of japanese cuisine?
16:15 < Marino> it's vague, basically means life experience
16:16 < kanzure> but why be so vague
16:16 < fenn> Marino: that's pretty vague
16:16 < kanzure> you're talking about BCIs after all :)
16:16 < Marino> Because it is vague. 
16:16 < kanzure> but why use it if it is vague?
16:16 < kanzure> I don't understand
16:16 < fenn> basically you want people to respect you and throw money at you for minimal amounts of effort while doing what you like to do anyway
16:16 < fenn> that's "career"
16:16 < Marino> I never said anything about money. 
16:16 < kanzure> is that what you want, Marino?
16:16 < kanzure> hm
16:17 < Marino> Yes, I would like to earn a living so I can...you know, live.
16:17 < fenn> it's not a career if nobody's paying
16:17 < fenn> sorry
16:17 < Marino> Obviously I will get paid, but it isn't about the money in the end. 
16:18 < Marino> Can you grasp that? The concept of a life's work?
16:18 < fenn> "obviously"
16:18 < kanzure> but that's usually what a career is about .. so I just don't understand what your point is in trying to tell us that you want a career in BCIs
16:18 < kanzure> wouldn't you make BCIs anyway if you didn't have a career?
16:18 < fenn> Marino: there's this dead tree book my mom sent me.. gee too bad i cant give it to you
16:18 < Marino> Would "I want to develop BCIs" be better? 
16:18 < fenn> anyway the book is about how you should do what you like to do not what you think you ought to like to do
16:18 < kanzure> do you want to develop BCIs?
16:18 < Marino> Yes.
16:18 < kanzure> then do that :)
16:19 < kanzure> yeah, so that's more interesting IMHO
16:19 < Marino> That is the fundamental concept I was trying to get across. :P
16:19 < fenn> so why arent you actually doing it already?
16:19 < kanzure> fenn isn't as mean as he might sound
16:19 < Marino> Besides the fact that I'm 15, I don't have the resources nor the education yet. :P
16:19 < fenn> for example you could be cyborgizing the roaches in your house etc
16:20 < kanzure> age isn't an excuse.
16:20 < Marino> erm, my house is not infested.
16:20 < fenn> or learning about electronics or something useful
16:20 < kanzure> some people raise roaches for fun
16:20 < fenn> museum curators mostly
16:20 < kanzure> a peculiar type
16:20 < kanzure> Marino: why don't you have the resources?
16:21 < kanzure> do you know which resources you don't have?
16:21 < kanzure> er, I mean, tools
16:21 < fenn> didnt you have a link for $20 patch clamp
16:21 < fenn> electrode array or something i mean
16:21 < fenn> blarg
16:21 < Marino> Yes - I don't have any fMRI systems, which is kind of essential. 
16:21 < kanzure> it's somewhere in the ~bbishop/docs/neuro/ directory thingy, let me dig it out
16:22 < fenn> O RLY
16:22 < fenn> Marino: you might want to verify that statement
16:23 < fenn> (the other day i was making fun of fMRI as "typing with a remote controlled hammer")
16:23 < Marino> [somewhere in the back of my mind whispers a voice: "Don't feed the trolls"]
16:23 < kanzure> diy electrode assembly: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/Electrode%20Assembly.pdf
16:23 < fenn> don't classify me as a troll, i'm trying to help
16:23 < kanzure> diy electrode assembly notes: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/neuro/Electrode%20Assembly.pdf.txt
16:23 < fenn> you're trying to do something but claim you can't because you need some gigadollar equipment
16:24 < kanzure> gigadollar is an official metric of #hplusroadmap
16:24 < Marino> Technically, I can't. What do you think I don't need?
16:25 < kanzure> wait, what? if you can't, then why are you trying?
16:25 < kanzure> we're talking about the fMRI system
16:25 < kanzure> you said you need an fMRI
16:25 < fenn> you dont' need an MRI machine to make a brain-computer interface
16:26 < Marino> What do I need then?
16:26 < Marino> enlighten me. 
16:26 < fenn> test subjects, measurement equipment... what else?
16:27 < kanzure> basic electronic lab equipment might be useful
16:27 < kanzure> there's an inventory list, er, somewhere
16:27  * kanzure digs
16:27 < fenn> braingate is basically a multi channel ADC right?
16:27 < fenn> with lots of noise conditioning
16:28 < kanzure> vern gave me an inventory list from his nuts&volts publication
16:29 < kanzure> cell cultures might be useful for BCIs or something
16:29 < kanzure> or at least the frog leg experiments
16:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/2008-08-15.html <- some notes on Captain Cyborg's latest BCis for rat neural cultures guiding various robots around
16:30 < fenn> tissue culture is another ball of wax
16:30 < kanzure> electronics workbench inventory list thingy: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/9c6e67d0af38c5c4/e2e85300b87867b2?lnk=gst&q=electronics+inventory#e2e85300b87867b2
16:30 < fenn> sort of hard for amateur to start with
16:30 < fenn> that's why i suggested insects, because you wont have PETA burning your house down etc
16:30 < fenn> apparently insects arent animals
16:30 < kanzure> how do you do neurosurgery with insects, anyway?
16:30 < kanzure> does the exoskeleton heal?
16:30 < fenn> no
16:31 < Marino> haha
16:31 < Marino> poor insects
16:31 < kanzure> Marino: try out those links.
16:31 < Marino> ok, thanks, brb
16:31 < fenn> the cyborg roach thingy was just a connection to their antenna nerves
16:31 < kanzure> that's kind of lmae
16:31 < kanzure> *lame
16:31 < kanzure> this was the cyborg roach mounted on a robot, right?
16:31 < fenn> the cyborg flying beetle was implanted in the chrysalis at a specific stage of development
16:31 < fenn> right
16:32 < fenn> the beetle is more interesting because it grows around the implant
16:32 < kanzure> was there a paper?
16:32 < fenn> i think to be truly integrated you'd have to do the same thing with animals
16:32 < fenn> i didnt read any paper, i think it was at berkely
16:35 < fenn> Marino: what do you want to do with a BCI eventually?
16:36 < Marino> back
16:37 < fenn> SQUID devices are interesting and probably better spatial resolution than an MRI
16:37 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:37 < kanzure> hi genehacker 
16:37  * fenn dives for cover
16:38 < genehacker> ???
16:38 < genehacker> what is it?
16:38 < kanzure> just saying hello.
16:39 < genehacker> oh hi
16:39 < Marino> Eventually, I would like to work towards [realistically] creating a fully controllable virtual body with movable joints, muscles, skeletal system, ect that can be controlled by tapping the motor cortex's map. Obviously this is a jumbled hypothetical "dream project", but I'm sure I will end up doing something much more humble with BCIs. 
16:39 < genehacker> they have virtual bodies like that
16:39 < genehacker> except they monitor electrical impulses to your muscles
16:39 < Marino> So basically you can control a virtual body just like you control your own?
16:39 < Marino> No, no muscles involved. It would be all with the mind, no physical movement necessary.
16:39 < genehacker> and use a motion capture system or something like that
16:39 < fenn> i think you'd have to actually move
16:40 < genehacker> yeah
16:40 < fenn> or try to move
16:40 < Marino> yeah, by thinking by moving you would ideally make the virtual body move. 
16:40 < Marino> Think of taking your right hand and scratching your back? The virtual body would do it. 
16:40 < kanzure> the motor cortex may not work that way
16:40 < kanzure> the motor cortex isn't the "prime mover"
16:40 < Marino> It's a fantasy but something I hope someday will be possible.
16:41 < fenn> and relieve my virtual itch :)
16:41 < genehacker> what about scratching through your back?
16:41 < genehacker> this is virtual reality were talking about
16:41 < Marino> through? You could do that. The body wouldn't have the physical limitations that we have.
16:41 < Marino> Yes, VR would be my ideal field. 
16:41 < fenn> i think the interesting part of a BCI is you could integrate wholly new senses into your awareness.. like a "codal" sense or a cryptographic sense
16:42 < kanzure> Marino: field? what?
16:42 < fenn> "career"
16:42 < Marino> hahahahahha
16:42 < kanzure> oh
16:42 < kanzure> not this again
16:42 < Marino> Sorry, I have these words in my vocabulary :P
16:42 < genehacker> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/29/1254259
16:42 < Marino> what words should I use?
16:42 < genehacker> paper form of this kanzure?
16:42 < kanzure> Marino: just go *do* it
16:43 < Marino> not field...erm....area of study?
16:43 < kanzure> study? just *do* it
16:43 < genehacker> monkey with a robotic arm controlled by brain interface?
16:43 < kanzure> genehacker: not right now, sorry, slow internet connection
16:43 < Marino> I'm trying to be realistic here. 
16:43 < kanzure> me too
16:43 < kanzure> Marino: do you know about diybio?
16:43 < genehacker> SLOW INTERNET CONNECTION
16:43 < genehacker> that sucks
16:43 < Marino> Nope.
16:44 < kanzure> genehacker: the paper wasn't interesting, IIRC, you should just read up on how to manufacture microelectrode arrays
16:44 < fenn> diybio is rather useless in its current state
16:44 < kanzure> Marino: the whole point is that amateurs are capable of doing this shit without multi-gigabillion dollar pieces of equipment
16:44 < kanzure> yes, the community itself is useless
16:44 < kanzure> but I'm just trying to convey the idea here
16:44 < genehacker> I don't care that the paper wasn't interesting to you
16:44 < kanzure> genehacker: it didn't actually say anything though. 
16:44 < genehacker> it had something about it about the brain outputting where to move the arm in vector form
16:45 < genehacker> IE
16:45 < genehacker> it didn
16:45 < genehacker> t specify angles
16:45 < Marino> Bryan, really? Projects this complex?
16:45 < kanzure> Marino: yes, absolutely. that's what we're about in here.
16:45 < genehacker> it specified a point to move to or something like that
16:45 < kanzure> the brain just happens to work through a vector encoding standard for arm movement?
16:46 < Marino> I'm not sure even the pros could make a fully mind-controlled virtual body. :P
16:46 < kanzure> what pros?
16:46 < Marino> at this stage in technological development anyways
16:46 < Marino> scientists
16:46 < Marino> Neurologists
16:46 < Marino> namely
16:46 < Marino> Technicians
16:47 < kanzure> all of the tools seem to be in place, as far as I can tell
16:47 < kanzure> what piece of equipment do we not know how to build?
16:47 < fenn> non invasive brain implants
16:47 < fenn> erm. 
16:47 < kanzure> and solar powered photocoppiers!
16:47 < fenn> i guess that's sort of an oxymoron
16:47 < kanzure> oxydouglasadams
16:48 < fenn> how about we make some kind of genetic engineered fish that you shove in your ear
16:48 < Marino> Some things you cannot just "Do". You need to know HOW to do them first.
16:48 < Marino> that requires RESEARCH
16:48 < fenn> then it sends biocompatible tendrils into your brain
16:49 < fenn> so do some research
16:49 < Marino> You know what I'm going to say. :P
16:49 < kanzure> not really
16:49 < fenn> not really
16:49 < fenn> hey!
16:49 < genehacker> you can make solarpower photocopiers
16:50 < Marino> that to do the research you need the resources. I need a lab with the right equipment. 
16:50 < genehacker> film+ optics +paper to be copied
16:50 < Marino> <_> 
16:50 < kanzure> Marino: then make a lab.. that sounds like a reasonable project to me
16:50 < fenn> marino better learn how to acquire lab equipment then
16:50 < kanzure> or how to build it
16:50 < kanzure> probably acquire though
16:50 < Marino> I will. When I am older. 
16:51 < fenn> boo
16:51 < kanzure> hiss
16:51 < kanzure> if not now, when?
16:51 < genehacker> marino how do you give feedback on where the virtual arms are?
16:51 < Marino> For now I have to deal with mundanity like all other teenagers.
16:51 < fenn> by that logic you'll be dead before anything interesting happens
16:51 < kanzure> what mundanity?
16:51 < fenn> you know there are 15 year old's doing research at MIT right?
16:52 < kanzure> and it's not because they are bright (they aren't)
16:52 < Marino> Being old enough to think for yourself but not having the freedom to do what you want. 
16:52 < kanzure> Marino: what?
16:52 < fenn> not saying it's a viable plan to go work at MIT or anything.. but you have to at least try before you give up
16:52 < kanzure> well it's also not viable to work at a university anyway
16:52 < Marino> Bryan - being a teenager. You are one. You know what it's like. :P
16:52 < kanzure> I mean, you'll be subjected to the professor's whims and so on
16:53 < kanzure> Marino: I'm actually quite oblivious.
16:53 < Marino> I can't even drive yet.
16:53 < fenn> i'll attest to that
16:53 < kanzure> I couldn't drive until I was 18
16:53 < kanzure> so what?
16:53 < Marino> No credit card. 
16:53 < Marino> I need permission.
16:53 < fenn> you need a credit card to drive?
16:53 < Marino> No.
16:53 < Marino> It's a list. :P
16:54 < kanzure> it's ok, the internet comes to you
16:54 < genehacker> I probably should drive
16:54 < fenn> if your parents and teachers etc etc are totally unsupporting and uncaring, you should find someone who will help
16:54 < fenn> doing neuroscience is something that should be encouraged
16:54 < genehacker> if I increase my carbon emission I might be able to make humans go into space faster
16:54 < Marino> How? I can't go anywhere. 
16:54 < kanzure> Marino: the internet.
16:54 < Marino> I'm literally stuck. 
16:54 < fenn> get a bike
16:55 < kanzure> Marino: why do you have to go places
16:55 < kanzure> do you not have a mailbox?
16:55 < Marino> Nope, I don't actually. It's at the post office. PO Box
16:55 < kanzure> what's bad about that?
16:55 < fenn> is there a local community college or university?
16:56 < Marino> Nope. 
16:56 < kanzure> do your parents ever check the mail?
16:56 < genehacker> where do you need to go?
16:56 < Marino> About once every couple weeks. :P
16:56 < fenn> you can get a debit card which is for all intents and purposes a credit card
16:57 < fenn> if you have a bank account
16:57 < kanzure> parents like helping their children set up bank accounts
16:57 < fenn> (not a pre-paid card, those suck)
16:57 < fenn> heh
16:57 < Marino> I don't need to go anywhere, not yet. I know what I am going to do when I go to college. It's just 3 years until I graduate, 2012. 
16:57 < kanzure> what are you doing before then?
16:58 < fenn> don't waste your life just because you think you're stuck
16:58 < fenn> learn something useful
16:58 < kanzure> that's what I did and I regret it completely
16:58 < Marino> go to school, do independent research, hang out with my friends, lead as much a normal life as possible
16:58 < kanzure> school?
16:58 < kanzure> I thought you said you can't go to a university
16:58 < Marino> Yep
16:58 < fenn> programming, electronics, math, writing
16:58 < Marino> highschool. 
16:58 < kanzure> why are you in high school?
16:58 < kanzure> that doesn't sound very useful for what you want to do
16:58 < Marino> I'm 16.
16:58 < kanzure> what does that have to do with it?
16:59 < fenn> wait a minute i thought you were 15
16:59 < Marino> turned 16 on the 9th
16:59 < Marino> still in 15 mode
16:59 < fenn> happy birthday
16:59 < Marino> thanks :P
16:59 < Marino> I'm not going to drop out of school.
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16:59 < kanzure> Marino: why not?
17:00 < kanzure> it doesn't seem to be helping you
17:00 < Marino> It isn't. 
17:00 < kanzure> ..
17:00 < fenn> i suggest finding out what your school has to offer that YOU find useful, not what parents/teachers/counselors think you ought to want
17:00 < Marino> There are many reasons not to drop out of highschool.
17:01 < fenn> then find a way to arrange time to use those facilities, preferably while you're stuck in the school day
17:01 < kanzure> Marino: come live with me
17:01 < Marino> haha
17:01 < Marino> I'm not sure where you guys live but in my town we have to do things that we do not want to.
17:02 < Marino> I'm tolerating it while I have to.
17:02 < kanzure> I have a brain disease that gives me an excuse to tell people to shut the fuck up when they are being retarded
17:02 < fenn> why dont you go shoot some jews then
17:02 < Marino> @fenn: I have no motivation to. @kanzure: That sucks, I'm sorry.
17:02 < fenn> insert quote here about 'only thing for evil to happen is for good men to do nothing'
17:03 < fenn> "we have to do things that we do not want to"
17:03 < kanzure> Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one. — Marcus Aurelius
17:03 < fenn> is a bald faced lie
17:03 < kanzure> "You must be the change you want to see in the world."
17:03 < kanzure> "Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."
17:03 < kanzure> "You must not be afraid to become who you are."
17:03 < kanzure> "You think that's air you're breathing? It's tree fart!"
17:03 < kanzure> er, that last one isn't as relevant as I thought it would be
17:04 < fenn> uh oh
17:04 < Marino> :P
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17:04 < Marino> Yes, I know. I agree with all those, even the tree one. 
17:04 < kanzure> "Just start doing something! Inertia is the enemy of passion."
17:04 < Marino> I am not going to waste my life.
17:04 < kanzure>  "Every truly great accomplishment is at first impossible."  -- Chinese proverb
17:04 < Marino> But while I am still dependent on my mother for my life, I need to abide by her rules. If I sound old fashioned, I'm sorry. 
17:05 < kanzure> you sound just like I did
17:05 < kanzure> ‘It is necessary to any originality to have the courage to be an amateur.’ — Wallace Stevens 
17:05 < fenn> i suggest mapping out your dependencies
17:05 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@cpe-67-9-157-136.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:05 < kanzure> Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done. -- Louis Brandeis
17:05 < fenn> mother does not imply 'life support system'
17:05 < kanzure> "Now, the basic problem is this: the problem of being finite is an infinitely frustrating one; how can this be?"
17:06 < fenn> Marino: do you really think it's going to get any easier when you grow older?
17:07 < fenn> in fact you will have less people supporting you
17:07 < kanzure> there's this magical fairy that comes by when you're 18 and tells you everything you ever needed to know
17:07 < Marino> Yes. I will get to live my own life. 
17:07 < Marino> I know. 
17:07 < kanzure> she also brings you a driver's license
17:07 < kanzure> and a handbook on how to operate your brain
17:07 < kanzure> and the latest copy of the Federal Register
17:08 < Marino> really? Wow. I never knew that.
17:08 < fenn> so anyway this is not #carrer-roadmap
17:09 < fenn> career*
17:09 < fenn> if you want to talk about something interesting, go ahead
17:09 < Marino> Nope, I'm done.
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17:09 < fenn> sigh
17:09 < kanzure> aw. I liked ihm.
17:09 < kanzure> *him
17:10 < fenn> "hi guys, i want to build BCI. help i'm stuck in a 15 year old body! k thx bye"
17:10 < genehacker> how do I make phosphorus without get phossy jaw?
17:10 < kanzure> maybe I shouldn't talk to young children
--- Log closed Sat Jun 13 17:10:46 2009
--- Log opened Sat Jun 13 17:11:15 2009
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17:11 < genehacker> hmmm...
17:11 < genehacker> I need an electric arc furnace
--- Log closed Sat Jun 13 17:11:54 2009
--- Log opened Sat Jun 13 17:17:32 2009
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17:18 < kanzure> beep
17:19 < genehacker> now then how do I make a solar furnace that tracks the sun and let's me use the focused light without working at an odd angle
17:19 < genehacker> kanzure, pak chooie unf
17:21 < fenn> move the target, not the dish
17:22 < fenn> bounce semi-focused light off a flat secondary mirror
17:22 < genehacker> or build a solar pumped laser
17:23 < genehacker> then things get complicated
17:27 < fenn> complicated is bad
17:32 < genehacker> yeah
17:34 < genehacker> now what about some sort of light pipe?
17:39 < kanzure> "trnashumanism: we'll get there! someday."
17:40 < kanzure> *transhumanism
17:40 < genehacker> damn you sigma aldrich!
17:40 < kanzure> genehacker: you know you have access to sigma-aldrich through sata, right?
17:41 < genehacker> I know I do kanzure
17:41 < kanzure> then what's the problem
17:41 < genehacker> the problem is that a lot of other people don't
17:41 < kanzure> how symapthetic of you :)
17:41 < fenn> i suggest getting something working
17:41 < kanzure> *sympathetic of you :)
17:41 < fenn> vs worrying about how to fix the entire planet all at once
17:41 < PeerInfinity> hmm... is there already an official name for the movement that says "we're almost there now.  get out of the car and help push"?
17:41 < kanzure> what?
17:42 < kanzure> there is no movement that says that
17:42 < kanzure> there's just a lot of angry mad scientists yelling at you
17:42 < PeerInfinity> what about your group here, don't you count?
17:42 < kanzure> no, we can't convince anyone to help us
17:43 < PeerInfinity> but you haven't given up yet
17:43 < kanzure> what?
17:43 < genehacker> so now you get why I don't want to rely on ONE or A FEW chemical supplier
17:43 < genehacker> s
17:43 < kanzure> sure, but you don't typically think like that genehacker 
17:43 < kanzure> so that's an improvement.
17:43 < kanzure> just interesting, that's all
17:44 < genehacker> what I don't/
17:45 < kanzure> PeerInfinity: the problem is that in order to push you have to shut up
17:46 < kanzure> or something.
17:46 < genehacker> also if we rely on sigma aldrich or one chemical supplier then the next terrorism prevention law or what not could shut us down
17:46 < genehacker> and that would be bad
17:46 < PeerInfinity> shutting up is what I do best :)
17:47 < fenn> yotta-                  1e24     # Greek or Latin octo, "eight"
17:47 < kanzure> PeerInfinity: maybe you want to help us on the projects now?
17:47 < fenn> yocto-                  1e-24    # Greek or Latin octo, "eight"
17:47 < genehacker> so if we make our own chemicals we don't have to worry about regulation like the DiyBio people are
17:47 < kanzure> right
17:48 < PeerInfinity> (by the way, Activism is one of the four main principles of Singularitarianism, according to the original Singularitarian Principles document:  http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/principles.html#activism )
17:48 < kanzure> RAWR
17:48 < kanzure> ME EAT ELI
17:48 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/eli.html
17:48 < fenn> you really didnt have to do that you know
17:48 < genehacker> activism doesn't do much
17:48  * PeerInfinity reads...
17:48  * kanzure stomps around
17:49 < genehacker> it's better if make it so that progress can't be stopped
17:50 < genehacker> so I need phospholabile phosphoramidites
17:53 < kanzure> why not extract nucleotides from food like your body does
17:53 < genehacker> that may end up being one of the steps
17:54 < genehacker> we extract nucleotides and turn them into nucleoside phosphoramidites
17:54 < genehacker> oh wait we don't
17:54 < genehacker> we turn them into plain old nucleosides
17:54 < genehacker> my bad
17:55 < genehacker> we need nucleoside phosphoramidites, chemically modified nucleosides
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17:55 < genehacker> specifically photolabile phosphoramidites
17:55 < kanzure> genehacker: well, write down the steps please.
17:55 < genehacker> ok
17:56 < genehacker> Synthesis of photolabile phosphoramidites. The MeNPOC-HEG-cyanoethylphosphoramidite
17:56 < genehacker> (CEP) and MeNPOC-base-CEPs were synthesized
17:56 < genehacker> according to the protocol described by McGall and colleagues8. Briefly, 3,4-
17:56 < genehacker> (methylenedioxy)acetophenone (Aldrich Chemical Co., Milwaukee, WI) was
17:56 < genehacker> reacted with glacial acetic acid and 70% (vol/vol) HNO3 to produce methyl
17:56 < genehacker> 3,4-(methylenedioxy)-6-nitrophenyl ketone. This molecule was reacted with
17:56 < genehacker> sodium borohydride to produce (R,S)-1-(3,4-(methylenedioxy)-6-nitrophenyl)
17:56 < genehacker> ethanol, which was then reacted with phosgene to produce (R,S)-1-
17:56 < genehacker> (3,4-(methylenedioxy)-6-nitrophenyl)ethyl chloroformate (MeNPOC-Cl).
17:56 < genehacker> This molecule was attached to hexaethylglycol and A(PAC), C(ibu), and
17:56 < genehacker> G(ibu). These molecules were then converted to phosphoramidites by reacting
17:56 < genehacker> with 2-cyanoethyl N,N,N’,N’-tetraisopropylphosphorodiamidite and
17:56 < genehacker> diisopropyl ammonium tetrazolide to produce the final products.
17:57 < kanzure> er how about in a text file or something
17:57 < kanzure> so that we don't have to refer back to IRC logs all the time
17:58 < genehacker> it's in a paper I sent you
17:58 < kanzure> email?
17:58 < kanzure> when did you send it?
17:59 < genehacker> no
18:00 < genehacker> here's a better paper
18:00 < genehacker> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja964427a
18:00 < genehacker> BRB
18:00 < genehacker> proxying
18:01 < PeerInfinity> ok, I admit it, I'm too stupid (or too brainwashed?) to see the point of that eli.html link you sent me.  Would it be possible for you to create a point-form list of the main things Eliezer gets wrong?  or the things about Eli that annoy you so much?
18:15 < kanzure> nevermind- I have to leave soon- maybe I'll get around to it later, but it's mostly me ranting
18:16 < PeerInfinity> ok
18:17 < genehacker> huh? DMT is a hallucinogen?
18:19 < genehacker> SHIT
18:19 < genehacker> that's a chemical we need
18:20 < genehacker> well there are different DMTs
18:59 < genehacker> nope it isn't
19:07 < genehacker> http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/23650/
19:58 < ybit> btw, fennetic.net has been down for awhile it seems
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20:43 < genehacker> hello?
20:43 < genehacker> is anyone there?
20:46 < genehacker> hello?
20:46 < genehacker> oh god I am connected
20:46 < PeerInfinity> hi :)
20:46 < genehacker> I don't have the internet
20:47 < PeerInfinity> oh?  what do you have then?
20:47 < genehacker> but I have chat
20:47 < genehacker> local access
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23:27 < kanzure> back
23:27 < kanzure> ybit: try heybryan.org port 8086 or 8087
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23:46 < kanzure> ok now I have all of the necessary content to get stuff done but it's all over the place
23:55 < kanzure> heh smari knows some techniques apparently. how lovely.
23:56 < kanzure> why isn't this already in a library? should I go find a library to contribute this to?
23:58 < kanzure> yay it's uploading 1.3 MB/sec