--- Day changed Tue Jul 28 2009
00:06 < ybit> it's the learning process i'm after
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00:21 < splicer> (welding is almost riveting)
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00:38 < katsmeow-afk> as a topic or procedure?
00:38 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: me?
00:38 < katsmeow-afk> splicer
00:57 < splicer> katsmeow-afk: was a bad pun
00:57 < katsmeow-afk> :-)
01:35 < ybit> http://sig.ma/ 
01:35 < ybit> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/26/2211222/The-Web-of-Data-Beyond-What-Google-and-Yahoo-Show
01:35 < ybit> "Both Google and Yahoo have been supporting Semantic Web markup (RDFa, RDF
01:35 < ybit> and Microformats) for weeks and months respectively. What they do, at the
01:35 < ybit> moment, is use the markup only for visual feedback by returning better
01:35 < ybit> looking, more functional 'page snippets.' But how would it look if you could
01:35 < ybit> get all these bits and compose them automatically to form a single
01:35 < ybit> structured information page about what you're searching for? The folks at
01:35 < ybit> the DERI institute have just released Sig.ma, a visual browser and mashup
01:35 < ybit> generator that will go all over the web of data and find dozens of sources
01:35 < ybit> to combine together when answering a user query. It also comes in API mode
01:35 < ybit> to reuse the information Sig.ma finds inside applications. Here are a
01:35 < ybit> screencast and a blog post, with semantic-web-geek details."
01:35 < ybit> via pointrel-discuss
01:55 < ybit> re: spherical coordinate system for the brain, didn't the allen institute do this already? [kanzure]
01:58 < ybit> spherical coordinate system is vague 
01:58 < ybit> guessing you want a map of all processes taking place in the brain
01:59 < ybit> sounds like a job for the blue brain guys @ epfl
02:11 < ybit> http://slash7.com/pages/vampires :: Help Vampires: A Spotter's Guide 
02:17 < ybit> http://gas2.org/2009/07/27/student-built-electric-car-charges-in-10-minutes/
02:17 < xp_prg> ok anyone heard about the book wet ware, a computer in every cell?
02:18 < ybit> http://mit-evt.blogspot.com/search/label/elEVen
02:18 < ybit> xp_prg: no
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07:31 < kanzure> ybit: a map of processes in the brain would be lovely
07:31 < kanzure> ybit: however, that's not what I am after
07:32 < kanzure> I just want to be able to start mapping information that I read about when I read up on the brain'
07:32 < kanzure> there's no way to really "store" this information in a useful format at the moment
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07:37 < genehacker2> kanzure if you get yourself an arduino and a reasonably sized inductor you could do so
07:37 < kanzure> what?
07:37 < kanzure> I don't think you understand
07:38 < kanzure> I can store this information in a text document, but then that's not really addressable/mappable
07:38 < kanzure> it would be better if there is some spherical coordinate system 
07:38 < kanzure> where I can type in coordinates from the literature
07:38 < kanzure> and get back everything that I have previously saved for that general location, or something
07:38 < kanzure> what does that have to do with an arduino?
07:43 < genehacker2> code commits and electric shock
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08:12 < kanzure> http://openmulticopter.org/
08:14 < flazmot> http://ansistego.sourceforge.net/drill.png
08:15 < kanzure> what is this an image of?
09:42 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * ra7233385923f / (packages/screw/__init__.py pymates/test_part.py): unit tests for pymates (parts)
09:42 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r8df8c10917ae /pymates/test_part.py: more unit test ideas fo
09:42 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r98005bd3597a /doc/proposals/assemblies.txt: jotted down some notes on how to deal with assemblies and pymates
09:42 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r572032cc01e5 /doc/proposals/assemblies.txt: assemblies are more like graphs
09:42 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r6f1b2192b7f4 /doc/todo/presentation.txt: more presentation notes
09:43 < kanzure> I should write an email and send it to diybio
09:43 < kanzure> and say something like,
09:43 < kanzure> "I am going to wait 5 years. After waiting 5 years, I will be in the future and will only at that time participate with others. Because that's how development works, right?"
09:43 < kanzure> http://openluna.org/
09:44 < kanzure> fenn: before you leave today, would you mind copying some of the VRML lego files?
09:53 < kanzure> nice discussion in ##electronics about how the badass soviets copied photomasks for intel microprocessors
10:02 < kanzure> ldraw, leocad, blockcad, these all suck immensely. does anyone have a favorite lego brick program?
10:09 < kanzure> http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1450
10:09 < kanzure> vim-vhdl :)
10:10 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/vim-vhdl/wiki/specification
10:10 < ybit> there's an emacs command to do that ;)
10:10 < kanzure> to do what?
10:10 < ybit> vim-vhdl
10:10 < ybit> http://xkcd.com/378/
10:15 < kanzure> I'm a level 69 butterfly master
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10:29 < ybit> hmm, only 5 have joined the mailing list after my massive spam message to the facebook diy h+ group
10:30 < ybit> massive = everyone that wasn't already my friend, roughly 40 people
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10:34 < kanzure> why did you spam them?
10:40 < ybit> to get a good idea of what the community is working on
10:42 < fenn> there's a community?
10:42 < ybit> no not really :P
10:42 < ybit> there are people that have joined a facebook group and recieve diy h+ emails
10:43 < ybit> and some people even hang out in here
10:44 < ybit> 02:14 < xp_prg> ok anyone heard about the book wet ware, a computer in every cell?
10:45 < ybit> do you have a link to the book?
10:45  * ybit was expecting you to follow-up on my response 
10:46 < ybit> http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html
10:46 < ybit> kind of lame but related to alternative keyboards: http://web.archive.org/web/20060218185526/http://www.geocities.com/zplazm/footmouse.html
10:46 < kanzure> bonus points for whoever can get xahlee to join this channel
10:46 < ybit> how's about a level up in emacs instead?
10:47 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * r02392edaf047 / (8 files in 3 dirs): removed OCC.Display dependencies in pymates, moved them around.
10:47 < kanzure> also, I hate .pyc files
10:48 < ybit> re: diy h+ "i really want to write about how incredibly adorable this is... but adorable does not make applicable scientific breakthroughs, i think... unless you are Algernon." Simone Syed
10:48 < kanzure> adorable?
10:48  * ybit waves his fists
10:48  * ybit is too lazy to post the projects right now
10:49 < drazak> C-x M-c M-butterfly
10:49 < ybit> not sure what you call that kind of person, kind of like a help vampire in the sense that they aren't actually researching what others are doing before speaking
10:49 < ybit> lazy maybe?
10:50  * ybit is lazy often, but that's more of a cynical laziness
10:50 < ybit> drazak: :D
10:51 < drazak> :D
10:53 < fenn> wow actual data being used for design decisions: http://xahlee.org/emacs/command-frequency.html
11:01 < fenn> continuing on my pedantic analysis of terminology, i'd like to observe that nobody ever says "a machining process" but rather they say "a machining technique" thus affirming that "machining" is the process and "milling" or "turning" is the technique
11:03 < fenn> one of these days i'll get around to renaming everything
11:04 < fenn> in order of decreasing generality: process, technique, operation, setup
11:05 < ybit> re: diy h+ projects... could possibly take a list, something similar to concatenating the fablab.yaml and techshop.yaml and putting this in an .org file where under each project there are links to every free/os project for the machine
11:06 < ybit> .org would definitely help to organize this, and it's needed because the number of open source projects is mind numbing
11:06 < fenn> oh bullshit
11:07 < ybit> go on
11:07 < fenn> there's hardly any open source hardware that isn't arduino
11:07 < ybit> heh
11:08 < fenn> sure there are a lot of variations on MDF + skate bearing cnc foam cutters
11:08 < fenn> but they're essentially branches of the same design
11:08 < fenn> and very few actually publish schematics or cad files
11:08 < ybit> i don't care if they use similar tech, i just want a listing of them
11:09 < ybit> which is properties of the subheadings/links which can be noted in org-mode
11:09 < ybit> s/is/are
11:09 < fenn> http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking
11:09 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design
11:10 < fenn> there's another link that i'm forgetting (not p2pfoundation)
11:10 < kanzure> ybit: have you checked out trans-tech.yaml yet?
11:10 < fenn> maybe this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_hardware
11:11 < ybit> kanzure: yup
11:11 < ybit> like i said, it's highly similar to some of the lists i've created in the past
11:11 < ybit> but i like that it's online and archived
11:12 < kanzure> fenn, ybit: be sure to see skdb/doc/proposals/assemblies.txt for some notes from this morning
11:12 < kanzure> the notes need to be turned into unit tests
11:12 < kanzure> I like the idea of doing something like:
11:12 < kanzure> a=Part()
11:12 < kanzure> b=Part()
11:12 < kanzure> a+b
11:12 < kanzure> and (a+b) would be some sort of list of potential pymates.Mate objects
11:13  * ybit is off to scan some more of the first book
11:14 < kanzure> ybit: your time could be better spent
11:14 < kanzure> no offense
11:15 < ybit> none taken
11:18 < fenn> http://p2pfoundation.net/Moving_from_free_software_to_free_production:_what_we_need
11:19 < fenn> how am i ever going to get anything done and also keep up with what everyone else is saying?
11:33 < kanzure> I am in love
11:33 < kanzure> http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/ldraw/
11:33 < kanzure> python for ldraw
11:34 < kanzure> download: http://www.boddie.org.uk/david/Projects/Python/ldraw/Software/ldraw-0.10.tar.bz2
11:34 < kanzure> hm, better link:
11:34 < kanzure> http://python-ldraw.alioth.debian.org/
11:35 < kanzure> hg clone http://hg.debian.org/hg/python-ldraw/main
11:35 < kanzure> ah, definitely do the mercurial clone
11:35 < kanzure> it has some new tools like ldr2pov.py for povray visualization of the created models
11:37 < kanzure> hm I don't seem to have a ldraw/ldraw/models/figures.ldr file
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11:48 < fenn> kanzure do you know if the @param stuff in docstrings in the pythonOCC samples does something special?
11:50 < fenn> for example pythonOCC/samples/Level1/Geometry/geometry_demos.py in function make_text
11:53 < kanzure> whoever came up with Level1 & Level2 should be shot
11:53 < kanzure> can we rename them to 1 and 2 please?
11:53 < fenn> there are a number of things i'd like to change in pythonOCC
11:54 < kanzure> fenn: it looks like inline documentation
11:54 < fenn> (understatement of the year)
11:54 < kanzure> isn't this used for ipython and bpython and help()?
11:54 < kanzure> @param, I mean
11:55 < fenn> not that i can tell
11:55 < fenn> help() just prints the docstring and function prototype
11:55 < kanzure> huh you're right
11:55 < fenn> bpython just prints the function prototype
11:55 < kanzure> it spits out the @param
11:55 < kanzure> (help, I mean)
11:55 < kanzure> is it doxygen-specific?
11:56 < fenn> er.. do people use doxygen with python?
11:56 < kanzure> fenn: remember the doxygen stuff on pythonocc.org?
11:56 < kanzure> it's gone now, but there used to be an API zip file download
11:56 < kanzure> google indexed it once (they also had it uncompressed on their server)
11:56 < fenn> it's still there (maybe not the zip file)
11:57 < kanzure> oh, woops
11:57 < fenn> but that's all OCC.*
11:57 < fenn> not samples
11:58 < fenn> weird
11:58 < fenn> grep '@param' /usr/share/pyshared/OCC/ -R
11:58 < fenn> only finds 3 lines in Utils/Construct.py
12:00 < fenn> i have decided i don't care what @param is
12:00 < kanzure> congratulatoins
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12:02 < fenn> hello splicer
12:02 < fenn> what have you been up to lately?
12:03 < splicer> hi fenn. Drinking coffee
12:04 < splicer> arguing a bit with bryan on diybio
12:05 < splicer> did set up a #biopunk channel here too
12:06 < splicer> but most of all... avoiding to hack some fucking html
12:06 < fenn> scraping?
12:08 < splicer> I should make it XHTML 1.0 compliant
12:08 < kanzure> splicer: hello
12:09 < kanzure> splicer: I don't think we're arguing. you asked a question, I replied.
12:09 < splicer> hi kanzure
12:09 < splicer> yes
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12:09 < splicer> I thought you were talking about your git biology repository or your zip file.
12:10 < kanzure> no, sorry
12:11 < splicer> i think skdb is a tough sell to say OWW
12:12 < kanzure> I'm not trying to sell it to OWW
12:12 < kanzure> OWW is a wiki
12:12 < splicer> it's an organisation I think, we're members.
12:15 < splicer> ok, OWW is a wiki
12:15 < xp_prg> oh wow splicer, I like your posts!
12:15 < xp_prg> splicer can I give you my two cents?
12:16 < splicer> sure
12:17 < xp_prg> getting a server and paying for it, maintaining it, is a total bitch
12:17 < xp_prg> just use sourceforge or google code, its free and easy
12:18 < xp_prg> like to the area via the oww wiki, done
12:18 < xp_prg> like = link
12:19 < kanzure> oww is not diybio
12:19 < kanzure> sorry guys
12:19 < xp_prg> what does oww stand for?
12:19 < kanzure> openwetware
12:19 < splicer> open wet ware
12:20 < kanzure> it's an academic wiki for igem
12:20 < xp_prg> oh ok
12:20 < xp_prg> splicer do you see what I am getting at?
12:20 < kanzure> xp_prg: how would someone who goes to diybio.org know about these projects
12:20 < xp_prg> just link to them
12:21 < kanzure> xp_prg: but mac doesn't let us link to anything on diybio.org
12:21 < kanzure> do you get it yet?
12:21 < xp_prg> wow why?
12:21 < kanzure> because he hates me :(
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12:21 < fenn> wah.
12:21 < splicer> xp_prg: yeah, but I'm not looking to build any of the projects talked about.
12:21 < kanzure> bah as if you like listening to me anyway
12:21 < kanzure> splicer: then why the hell are you pestering
12:21 < kanzure> me?
12:21 < fenn> if http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/GearSynth/ is no good then where's the real code (so i can "document" it on the wiki)
12:22 < splicer> kanzure: mac is building something, he is working his ass of doing it.
12:22 < kanzure> let me upload
12:22 < xp_prg> splicer I am confused what are you saying then?
12:22 < splicer> xp_prg: "don't complain, do it yourself"
12:23  * kanzure uploads
12:23 < kanzure> splicer: what is he building?
12:23 < kanzure> splicer: and why doesn't he let us list projects on diybio.org?
12:23 < splicer> mac?... he is building diybio
12:23 < kanzure> um. what?
12:23 < kanzure> fenn: ok, check that dir again
12:23 < splicer> projects like skdb? cause it's not bio
12:23 < kanzure> how is a gel box not bio?
12:24 < splicer> skdb is a gelbox?
12:24 < fenn> i had visions of a mural of Mac as the proletariat holding a giant hammer
12:24 < kanzure> splicer: do you know what hardware even is??
12:24 < kanzure> sometimes there are communication barriers that I am not aware of
12:24 < fenn> skdb is a repo for projects like a gel box; only nobody's sent us the cad files for a gel box
12:24 < kanzure> it's also more than a repo, it's a package manager and some other things
12:25 < splicer> yeah... it's everything
12:25 < kanzure> what?
12:25 < fenn> kanzure: http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/GearSynth/ is the same?
12:25 < splicer> it's you guys pipe dream
12:26 < kanzure> then what about all the code?
12:26 < kanzure> what the hell man
12:27 < splicer> you really don't get why mac wouldn't want to link to a skdb?
12:27 < splicer> fenn?
12:27 < wrldpc2> http://mwmgraphics.com/2008_2020_BARCELONA_SHOW.html
12:28 < wrldpc2> ^matt moore -->  laffoley:  http://portageartist.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/solitron2.jpg
12:28 < fenn> splicer: i dont think it's ready yet, but that doesn't mean all progress should halt until skdb is ready
12:29 < splicer> aside from that
12:29 < fenn> splicer: it's not like setting up a revision control system is hard
12:29 < fenn> why is there NOTHING on diybio.org?
12:29 < fenn> a blog with 1 post in the last 3 months?
12:30 < splicer> maybe cause no one has built anything yet
12:30 < fenn> that's not true
12:30 < kanzure> "that's what they want you to think"
12:30 < fenn> it only appears that way because stuff is scattered all over the web
12:30 < kanzure> if they actually mentioned it on diybio.org,
12:30 < kanzure> maybe you'd know about it
12:31 < splicer> kanz... you mention everything
12:31 < kanzure> i am not diybio.orgh
12:31 < splicer> you're blessing and a curse
12:32 < fenn> if people spent as much time resolving his genuine complaints as they did complaining about the complaining, something good might happen
12:32 < fenn> bleh'
12:34 < splicer> it's not other peoples job to fix what kanzure complains about.
12:34 < splicer> ...especially in other peoples forums
12:34 < splicer> he can create his own forum... and promote it like mac & co
12:35 < fenn> so domain squatting is OK?
12:35 < splicer> like?
12:35 < fenn> diybio.org
12:36 < splicer> what do you mean by domain squatting?
12:37 < splicer> the reason people know and hear about diybio is because it's beeing promoted by the owners... lately others too.
12:37 < fenn> when did mac become the "owner" of diybio?
12:37 < splicer> there is mac on everything citizen biology
12:38 < fenn> and i dont mean the domain name
12:38 < splicer> ah... in 3 years there will be 5 groups like that
12:38 < fenn> for all the lip service to community, people sure don't act like they care
12:40 < splicer> They do a lot I think
12:40 < fenn> do we really need competing "diy" organizations?
12:40 < splicer> of course we do
12:40 < fenn> why?
12:40 < fenn> you know forking is bad right?
12:41 < splicer> it's what happens when humans organize, after a while someone gets pissed off, leaves and takes half of the pupils.
12:41 < fenn> it may be inevitable, but it's still destructive and counterproductive
12:41 < splicer> better than a monolith
12:42 < fenn> a community isn't a monolith
12:42 < fenn> this isnt IBM
12:42 < fenn> mac seems to think he's a CEO or something though
12:42 < splicer> why exactly?
12:42 < fenn> because he's the "owner" right?
12:43 < fenn> there's zero user-editable content on diybio.org
12:43 < splicer> but this is the part that I don't get
12:43 < fenn> he's consistently refused any sort of proposal to add anything user-editable
12:43 < fenn> whether a wiki, a source repository, whatever
12:43 < splicer> why don't you set yp a wiki then... why ask mac to do it?
12:44 < fenn> i just explained that forking is bad
12:44 < fenn> i have wikis for my projects
12:44 < fenn> if i'm going to develop biology lab equipment, i want it to be easy to find
12:45 < fenn> otherwise why go to the effort of documenting things
12:46 < splicer> forking is good
12:46 < fenn> you suck
12:46  * fenn goes back to work
12:46 < splicer> yeah.. but what are you gonna do
12:46 < splicer> it's called speciation in evolution
12:46 < splicer> forking is a good thing
12:47 < fenn> the ability to fork is necessary; that doesn't make it good for the group
12:47 < fenn> bacteria don't divide ad-infinitum
12:47 < kanzure> forking is the solution to a problem in an unhealthy community
12:47 < kanzure> diybio is very much alive and healthy as a community
12:47 < splicer> evolution works on the individual level, do what you want... if it's good otherw will follow.
12:48 < splicer> diybio may well be at it's beak right now
12:48 < splicer> peak
12:48 < fenn> i hope not; if it is, then it will all have been pointless
12:49 < splicer> citizen biology will go on
12:49 < kanzure> splicer: do you understand the difference between diybio and diybio.org?
12:49 < splicer> hehe... fine
12:50 < kanzure> what?
12:50 < splicer> diybio is called that cause that's what mac&co chose
12:50 < splicer> it could be called garage biology
12:51 < kanzure> so?
12:51 < splicer> if that's the name they would have registered then that's what we would call it.
12:51 < kanzure> no, diybio means diybio
12:51 < splicer> not biybiology then?
12:51 < kanzure> how would biybiology be different?
12:52 < kanzure> buy it yourself?
12:52 < splicer> don't remember
12:52 < splicer> yeah.. apparently
12:53 < kanzure> so how is that do-it-yourself?
12:53 < fenn> why don't you go trademark "biopunk" and sue everyone who uses the term then?
12:53 < kanzure> splicer: if mac et al. wanted a proprietary project, they shouldn't have got all these open source developers involved anyway.
12:53 < kanzure> I think if mac really wants to go proprietary, he should set up a new site and explicitly say so or something
12:53 < kanzure> but I don't think he wants to
12:53 < kanzure> I could be wrong
12:54 < splicer> i just think there is humor in that you opt the arbitrary name they chose and explain that there is a difference between diybio and diybio.org
12:54 < kanzure> do you understand why more people know about diybio.org than they know about a random URL?
12:54 < kanzure> it's because mac's beeing lying to the news
12:54 < kanzure> *been
12:54 < splicer> you mean promoting the name
12:54 < kanzure> under false pretenses
12:55 < splicer> what?
12:56 < kanzure> "hey look world, here's where you can explore do-it-yourself biology and garage biology and biohacking and biopunk stuff. oh, but wait, I'm not actually going to put any of this up there. oh and it's open source, so I get buzzword points right?"
12:56 < splicer> you realize anything you do in mac:s clothes will piss someone off.
12:56 < kanzure> I don't want anything to do with his dirty clothes
12:57 < splicer> do it yourself.. see how easy it is
12:57 < kanzure> splicer: I think you just like to argue
12:57 < kanzure> how easy what is? lying to people?
12:57 < splicer> mmm.. actually I am procrastinating a bit
12:57 < kanzure> I have no intention of lying.
12:59 < splicer> I don't get it... why do you think diybio has to be the only game in town.... don't complain.... it's like me going there and complaining that it's not about biohacker culture or biopubk philosohy or what I happen to be interested in... 
13:00 < kanzure> but it is about biohacker culture
13:00 < splicer> not really
13:00 < splicer> well.. in a way
13:00 < kanzure> how is doing it yourself not a hack?
13:00 < kanzure> wtf man
13:01 < splicer> well.... there would be more than that to a biopunk culture I think
13:01 < kanzure> nothing wrong with that
13:02 < splicer> It's like if I was choosing diybio as a venue to go on and on about memetics
13:02 < kanzure> do you mean the discussion group?
13:02 < splicer> yes
13:02 < kanzure> do you have any particular projects involving memetics?
13:03 < splicer> Projects in philosophy?... I've been thinking a lot about Dennett lately.
13:04 < kanzure> er I said memetics
13:04 < kanzure> do you know what memetics is?
13:04 < splicer> Dennett is your memetics guy
13:04 < kanzure> it's this idea that "ideas" are like genes, that they can be passed around from brain to brain in packages (like genes)
13:04 < splicer> he is the philosopher who incorporates them
13:04 < kanzure> so you can do experiments and so on
13:05 < kanzure> you can even do experiments in philosophy
13:05 < kanzure> these are typically called "thought experiments"
13:05 < splicer> hehe
13:05 < fenn> aka "not experiments"
13:06 < splicer> This is me... I'm not sure how this would be receives in a biopunk community... but the best experiments concerning human nature I know are made by the PUA community.
13:07 < splicer> They have aspects of Darwinism down to an art.
13:07 < fenn> what does PUA have to do with darwinism?
13:08 < splicer> Do you know mystery for example?
13:08 < fenn> i think 4chan is a better example
13:08 < fenn> no, i dont spend my time reading about how to hypnotise unsuspecting people
13:09 < splicer> Talking about the PUA stuff is a bit like dennett describes talking about religion and magic: People get upset when one discusses how it's done. 
13:10 < kanzure> what's wrong with 4chan as an example
13:10 < splicer> checking
13:10 < kanzure> you talk about memes but know nothing of 4chan?
13:12 < splicer> I had never heard of it
13:12 < kanzure> huh
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13:15 < fenn> 4chan is a meme breeding ground
13:16 < fenn> splicer: before exploring 4chan i recommend setting a time limit so you don't suffer from overexposure
13:16 < splicer> hehe
13:21 < splicer> ...addictive
13:23 < splicer> About the PUA community; It's common to explain behavior in evolutionary terms, like "50k years ago people run around in the forest in groups of 50pepole so therefore..."
13:23 < kanzure> that's the field of "evolutionary psychology", yes
13:24 < splicer> yes, and nowhere put to better use than in the PUA community.
13:24 < kanzure> that's debatable
13:24 < splicer> always
13:25 < kanzure> what?
13:25 < kanzure> no, I mean, there's possibly a better use that you haven't imagined yet
13:25 < splicer> people hate the PUA community
13:25 < kanzure> so what
13:25 < kanzure> people hate jews too
13:26 < splicer> fuck religion
13:26 < kanzure> you don't really seem to be talking about anything
13:26 < kanzure> I'm going back to work now
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13:36 < genehacker2> splicer whatever you do don't look directly at the site
13:36 < splicer> genehacker: 4chan?
13:37 < genehacker2> don't
13:37 < genehacker2> so that bolonkin guy I was talking about
13:37 < genehacker2> he is wrong
13:38 < genehacker2> and I know why now
13:38 < genehacker2> or at least wrong about making a device that levitates in earth's magnetic field
13:43 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r4cceead42e8f /paths.py: show all 8 tangent circles (if they exist); reduce redundant point creation
13:43 < CIA-43> skdb:  * ree72fbbffd6b /paths.py: clean stuff up
13:43 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r7c609672f841 /paths.py: split tangent solver into its own func; start path builder. doesnt work yet, gce_MakeLin2d dies, why?
13:43 < CIA-43> skdb:  * rb1bcf8084ffb / (16 files in 7 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://adl.serveftp.org/var/www/skdb
13:43 < fenn> any ideas why gce_MakeCirc2d works but gce_MakeLin2d doesn't?
13:44 < kanzure> full namespace please
13:45 < fenn> OCC.gce.gce_MakeCirc2d
13:45 < fenn> see paths.py in function line_arc_line_path
13:46 < fenn> this seems to work: foo = gce_MakeLin2d(gp_Pnt2d(0,0), gp_Pnt2d(1,1))
13:46 < kanzure> does anyone know where STUD3.DAT can be found?
13:46 < fenn> i think i'm passing it two gp_Pnt2d's; what gives
13:46 < kanzure> you just said MakeLin2d doesn't
13:47 < fenn> sorry, it doesn't work in my program :P
13:47 < kanzure> "this seems to work"
13:47 < kanzure> oh, so in a prompt it works, but not in the program
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13:49 < kanzure> bah, check yer line nums
13:53 < CIA-43> skdb:  * rd6288769ab80 /paths.py: fixed. thanks kanzure
13:56 < fenn> sigh.. BRepFilletAPI_MakeFillet2d
13:57 < kanzure> an entire api devoted to it
13:57 < kanzure> I think you should be grepping the documentation in a shell, not in a browser
14:04 < fenn> grepping doesn't really work so well
14:05 < fenn> you know we should probably make some backups of important stuff on davinci
14:09 < kanzure> and on leibniz :/
14:10 < kanzure> if you link me to a large hard drive on amazon, I'll order it and we can do some backups of important stuff
14:10 < kanzure> but not larger than the maxtor drive
14:10 < kanzure> otherwise I'd be tempted to always use it
14:10 < fenn> large = 500GB?
14:11 < kanzure> sounds good
14:11 < kanzure> there's more than 500 GB on leibniz to back up, but not all of it is worth it
14:11 < kanzure> but that will cover davinci
14:12 < fenn> shouldn this work? tar -h -zxvf adl_wiki.tgz dokuwiki/
14:12 < kanzure> isn't "x" extract?
14:12 < fenn> gah
14:12 < kanzure> try c
14:13 < fenn> i thought it was just compressing the symlink
14:13 < fenn> but it was actually expanding the symlink
14:13 < fenn> net result = same
14:20 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/pyldraw
14:21 < kanzure> you can thank me
14:40 < kanzure> you were right, python setup.py install was required
14:40 < fenn> certainly seems like a lot of code in ldraw could be pared down
14:40 < kanzure> ldraw is closed source
14:40 < fenn> er, python-ldraw
14:41 < fenn> it's like he's never heard of class inheritance
14:41 < kanzure> rapid prototyping with povray is damn near impossible
14:42 < kanzure> povray makes pyldraw *not* feel like legos at all
14:43 < fenn> i suppose one could make an OCC "writer"
14:43 < kanzure> what reads dot pov?
14:43 < fenn> pov-ray
14:44 < kanzure> blender?
14:47 < xp_prg> blender rocks!!!!!!
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14:48 < fenn> http://www.oyonale.com/
14:48 < kanzure> wouldn't it suck if ldraw is all based on povray?
14:50 < kanzure> path truder? http://www.ldraw.org/Downloads-req-viewdownload-cid-9.html
14:51 < kanzure> aha
14:51 < kanzure> format converters
14:51 < kanzure> http://www.ldraw.org/Downloads-req-viewdownload-cid-6.html
14:51 < fenn> i particularly like this one http://www.oyonale.com/image.php?code=432&mode=info&section=2003&lang=en
14:51 < kanzure> stl2dat
14:52 < kanzure> so, dxf or obj? which format?
14:52 < fenn> this is pretty cool too; it's a tutorial how he actually goes about making scenes http://www.oyonale.com/image.php?code=505
14:56 < kanzure> http://www.brickwiki.org/wiki/LDraw_file_format
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15:03 < kanzure> so not only is ldr2obj windows-only, it's an msi file
15:03 < kanzure> and not only is it an msi file (wine -msiexec /i Setup.msi),
15:03 < kanzure> but it requires the .NET framework to run anyway
15:04 < kanzure> so maybe mono can run it, but still
15:04 < kanzure> this is retarded. it's a simple file converter utility..
15:12 < kanzure> http://www.ldraw.org/Downloads-req-getit-lid-79.html
15:12 < kanzure> http://www.ldraw.org/Downloads-req-getit-lid-79.html
15:12 < kanzure> ;kjlafdl;dsfl;
15:12 < kanzure> http://www.brickwiki.org/wiki/LDraw_file_format
15:18 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/legos/temp.obj
15:21 < kanzure> :)
15:31 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/legos/temp2.obj
15:35 < kanzure> svn co http://svn.gerf.org/leocad/trunk leocad
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16:02 < CIA-43> skdb:  * r347b1fe88789 /paths.py: back to the original approach of making a path and then adding fillets
16:03  * kanzure compiles leocad
16:03 < kanzure> yay that was fast
16:03 < kanzure> http://trac.gerf.org/leocad/wiki/CompilingGuide
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17:20 < fenn> now thats what i call a gearsynth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAtziCsUj5Q
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17:29 < kanzure> weird, PieceInfo::WriteWavefront() is totally commented out in leocad/common/pieceinf.cpp
17:30 < kanzure> the repo version exports to VRML97 and X3DV
17:32 < fenn> i'm surprised blender doesnt import vrml97
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17:38 < kanzure> dovebid branford group
18:08 < fenn> apparently that pic was rendered from these geometry descriptions: http://www.digitalbricks.org/lgeo.html
18:10  * kanzure writes some stl code up for pyldraw
18:19 < fenn> quite impressed with these lego renderings http://www.tubafrog.com/lego/index.php?category=blacktron1
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18:28 < genehacker2> kanzure found a good book about microfluidics in the library
18:29 < genehacker2> it has information on microfluidic circuit design and stuff like putting catalysts in microfluidic channels
18:30 < genehacker2> the process is similar to how the monolith in that protein seperation paper was made
18:36 < genehacker2> http://www.springer.com/springerwiennewyork/chemistry/book/978-3-211-32994-8
18:36 < genehacker2> think it might have some CFD tips too...
18:45 < genehacker2> it's on google books
18:45 < genehacker2> perhaps we could extract the whole book from google books if we all viewed different pages
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19:24 < kanzure> classic humor:
19:24 < kanzure> http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=128827&PageSize=25&WhichPage=1
19:25 < kanzure> (from 2002)
19:26 < fenn> lego assembly animations http://tubafrog.com/lego/index.php?id=157
19:28 < kanzure> .. in povray? what the fuck.
19:43 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rabb218f7232c /import_tools/ (ldr2stl.py pyldraw-stl.py): pyldraw import tools added
19:59 < fenn> this is pretty sweet http://youtube.com/watch?v=JNyiC6udVFk
19:59 < fenn> can we import that into secondlife yet?
20:00 < CIA-43> skdb: kanzure * rd7c3ebe379cd /pymates/rapid-test.py: fixed pymates rapid-test module error
20:01 < kanzure> The Sims: Legos
20:02  * fenn checks to see if it exists
20:03 < kanzure> well?
20:03 < kanzure> all I see is "LEGO ROCK BAND"
20:03 < kanzure> wtf are they thinking
20:03 < fenn> search results inconclusive
20:03 < fenn> what is this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYTa-r8-QJM
20:04 < kanzure> it's lego star wars
20:04  * kanzure has played. it sucked.
20:05 < kanzure> once on a game console, and once on a windows box
20:05 < kanzure> the interface was terrible, and you couldn't really build stuff
20:05 < kanzure> "role playing game" my ass
20:05 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61Do03ZCjw
20:05 < kanzure> 15 million views?
20:06 < kanzure> er.
20:06 < kanzure> nevermind it's boring
20:07 < kanzure> this is what I was thinking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0t7MbeKVH8
20:15 < fenn> http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/efficientlego
20:15 < fenn> how to efficiently store legos
20:16 < kanzure> quite evil
20:16 < kanzure> lego radar
20:18 < genehacker2> does it use sonar or actual radar?
20:18 < kanzure> no, lego radar is where you're able to detect legos in a giant pile
20:20 < genehacker2> oh
20:20 < genehacker2> hmmm
20:20 < genehacker2> I wonder
20:20 < genehacker2> are RFID chips cheap enough to do that?
20:21 < fenn> http://search.ebay.com/439933932f
20:23 < genehacker2> mold a unique rfid chip into each lego so you can figure out where 'that piece' is and if you have enough
20:23 < fenn> no, sadly
20:24 < fenn> they are still about $0.5 each in quantity, more like $1.50 in consumer quantities
20:24 < kanzure> fenn and I had a bet that you'd be talking about molding legos by midnight
20:24 < kanzure> I seem to have won the bet
20:24 < kanzure> fenn: you sir, owe me one pound of chocolate
20:25 < genehacker2> huh?
20:25 < genehacker2> why would you think that?
20:25 < genehacker2> molding lego bricks is really really hard
20:25 < fenn> but making crappy lego bricks is easy
20:25 < genehacker2> and not something that people could reasonable do in a garage
20:25 < kanzure> SLS
20:26 < fenn> shirley you must be joking
20:26 < kanzure> who's shirley?
20:26 < genehacker2> lego with SLS?
20:26 < genehacker2> that might be accurate enough
20:26 < genehacker2> but the texture sucks...
20:26 < fenn> but who wouldn't want titanium legos?
20:27 < fenn> genehacker2: seriously, why not reprap a lego brick?
20:27 < genehacker2> that'd be EBM
20:27 < genehacker2> electron beam melting
20:27 < genehacker2> because reprap isn't accurate enough
20:27 < genehacker2> lasers are not within reprap
20:27 < genehacker2> 's universe yet
20:27 < fenn> can't you just make it out of something more flexible?
20:27 < genehacker2> do what?
20:27 < fenn> so the tolerances arent so tight
20:28 < fenn> add more butadiene to the ABS mix
20:28 < genehacker2> that wouldn't be as fun
20:29 < fenn> i won't be satisfied until i can download any harry potter character
20:29 < genehacker2> but I have thought of a way to get really accurate really smooth plastic parts in large quantities
20:29 < genehacker2> micromilling of aluminum molds
20:29 < genehacker2> you need really accurate actuators though
20:29 < fenn> umm.. injection molding?
20:29 < genehacker2> yeah
20:30 < fenn> didnt you just say it was impossible to do?
20:30 < fenn> (not like i believe you)
20:30 < genehacker2> well it wouldn't be impossible
20:30 < genehacker2> just really really hard
20:31 < genehacker2> but you can do gingery style plastic molding
20:31 < fenn> blarf http://i.ebayimg.com/02/!BN1k(FwB2k~$(KGrHgoOKkQEjlLmWTSVBJrrl+Gdgg~~_12.JPG
20:31 < genehacker2> really slow and only works for small parts
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20:31 < fenn> what's "gingery style" exactly?
20:32 < fenn> i dont remember if i read the book or not
20:32 < genehacker2> hand lever powered injection molding or something like that
20:32 < fenn> right, but why would that be slower?
20:32 < genehacker2> I don't know exactly but gingery did it
20:33 < genehacker2> it's not being done by an injection molding machine that can spit out lots of parts per second
20:34 < genehacker2> anyway why are you guys interested in lego all of a sudden?
20:34 < fenn> because it has really simple interface description
20:34 < fenn> and there are lots of models available
20:34 < genehacker2> and why didn't you do this sooner?
20:34 < fenn> because.
20:34 < kanzure> because I didn't realize that the models were creative commons licensed
20:34 < genehacker2> for automatic design
20:35 < kanzure> regli did
20:35 < kanzure> but that was in 2000
20:35 < genehacker2> REALLY?
20:35 < fenn> sorta
20:35 < genehacker2> they're creative commons liscensed?
20:35 < kanzure> yes
20:35 < fenn> the ldraw library is at least
20:36 < fenn> i remember something in 2003 or so saying legos were finally free of the clutches of their corporate masters
20:36 < fenn> patent expired or something
20:36 < genehacker2> well then that's good enough for me, now then find me a way to make a replicating CO2 laser tube so we can make an SLS machine
20:36 < fenn> it used to be that other block systems were all intentionally incompatible
20:36 < kanzure> aren't they still?
20:36 < kanzure> incompatible, I mean
20:36 < kanzure> intentionally incompatible, even
20:37 < fenn> but still i dont think that means you can copy new designs
20:37 < fenn> new mega-blox are compatible
20:37 < kanzure> O.o
20:37 < fenn> they're still colored wrong tho
20:37 < kanzure> and that's all that matters, right
20:37 < fenn> apparently it's really hard to make plastic pieces exactly the same color
20:37 < genehacker2> anyway what are you doing with lego so far?
20:38 < genehacker2> trying to automatically design basic mechanisms?
20:39 < drazak> welp, I'm part of a lab now
20:39 < genehacker2> or are you going to make a lego clanking replicator?
20:41 < kanzure> drazak: you're doomed
20:42 < drazak> kanzure: I work with stemcells
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21:29 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/opencascade/doc/ReferenceDocumentation/Visualization/html/classMeshVS__Mesh.html
21:30 < fenn> more lego animations: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z1zFaS7q-0Q
21:37 < kanzure> RuntimeError: Standard_ProgramError
21:38 < kanzure> thanks OCC! always helpful.
21:45 < ybit> fav lego star wars vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5iEK-IEzw
21:45 < ybit> star wars lego was mentioned.. so..
21:46 < kanzure> treat for the day:
21:46 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/library
21:52 < kanzure> buh? Inexpensive diode laser modulation at microwave frequencies for sideband generation to use for laser atom cooling and trapping.pdf
21:53 < QuantumG> heh, nice long filename that one
21:54 < kanzure> Reduction of Skin Impedance by the Improvement of the Blood Circulation.pdf
21:54 < kanzure> QuantumG: have you even seen heybryan.org/books/papers/ ?
21:54 < kanzure> :p
21:55 < QuantumG> I do remember looking at it :)
21:55 < QuantumG> is there robots.txt on that?
21:56 < kanzure> no
21:56 < kanzure> :)
21:56 < QuantumG> sweet
21:56 < kanzure> QuantumG: there's a faster download on adl.serveftp.org/papers/
21:56 < kanzure> in particular the 3.4 GB tar file
21:59 < QuantumG> I'll get right on that
21:59 < kanzure> fenn: http://192.168.1.123/books/papers/Determining%20interference%20between%20parts%20in%20CAD%20STEP%20files%20for%20automatic%20assembly%20planning.pdf Determining interference between parts in CAD STEP files for automatic assembly planning.pdf
21:59 < kanzure> guess I should get around to reading that again soon
22:02 < kanzure> 1328./Induction of fertile male flowers in genetically female Cannabis sativa plants by silver nitrate and silver thiosulphate anionic complex.pdf
22:03 < kanzure> Lacking Control Increases Illusory Pattern Perception.pdf
22:44 < ybit> ergoemacs is nice, anyone tried it?
22:46 < ybit> nice find kanzure, concerning legos organization
22:56 < ybit> hmm did i just imagine this or did smari talk about him thinking about the big picture of skdb/tb?
22:56 < ybit> 20:32 < Smari> I've been actively thinking about the big picture of what we're doing all day. I drew diagrams. Managed to simplify a few things, draw logical connections, figure out a few structural points... most of it is the IIS/supply chain side of things..
22:56 < ybit> phew, thought i was imagining things
22:57 < ybit> did he happen to commit his thoughts as a note to the repo? fenn, kanzure?
23:05 < fenn> hmm this reminds me of my random line-segment/arc generator script i wrote today: http://ffffound.com/image/9d09280b62b266107e4909d11aff5984bd543ba7?c=41913
23:07 < fenn> ybit: i never saw any notes from smari
23:07 < ybit> will have to ask for them, i'm sure he wanted to share
23:15 < genehacker2> kanzure so I was looking over your DNA synthesizer notes and I found a problem
23:17 < genehacker2> we can't just combine nucleosides and NPPOC-Cl
23:17 < genehacker2> we have to combine nucleosides with this protecting group on them:
23:17 < genehacker2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Butyldiphenylsilyl
23:18 < genehacker2> and remove that protecting group with this:
23:19 < fenn> ooo purty http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/method.cfm
23:19 < genehacker2> http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB9356360.htm
23:20 < ybit> 13:34 < genehacker2> so that bolonkin guy I was talking about
23:20 < ybit> 13:34 < genehacker2> he is wrong
23:20 < ybit> 13:35 < genehacker2> and I know why now
23:20 < ybit> why?
23:20 < fenn> A set of 10 million receipts from a large DIY store were processed so as to link together items that often appear on the same receipt. The resultant network of 40K nodes and many links has several important variables associated with the nodes; price, discount, volume, department.
23:20 < genehacker2> and then add another protecting group by adding
23:20 < ybit> you never explained your thoughts
23:21 < ybit> and i'm curious to hear them
23:21 < genehacker2> β-cyanoethyl N,N-bis(diisopropylamino)chlorophosphine
23:21 < genehacker2> oh that?
23:21 < genehacker2> well that bolonkin dude proposed a way of levitating in earth's magnetic field using a superconducting wire shielded by a superconducting magnetic field
23:22 < ybit> right
23:22 < genehacker2> the idea is that the lorentz force on the wire that isn't shielded should be enough to lift the device into the air and the lorentz force on the wire that's shielded should be nothing
23:23 < genehacker2> it is nothing
23:23 < fenn> so how is that wrong?
23:23 < genehacker2> but the wire generates a magnetic field that the superconductor shields by setting up a current in the superconductor
23:24 < genehacker2> this current goes in such a way that on the outside of the superconductor, it's going in the same direction as the wire inside
23:24 < fenn> i think it would work if you have a big enough loop and are in northern latitudes (or southern)
23:25 < genehacker2> so the lorentz force ends up acting on the superconducting shield instead
23:25 < fenn> another way to get around it is to use the ionosphere as the return loop
23:26 < genehacker2> though he also proposes using ferromagnetic magnetic shielding, which is less efficient(the magnetic field doesn't go all the way to zero on the inside)
23:26 < genehacker2> which might work
23:26 < fenn> or just any old ionized plasma really
23:26 < genehacker2> according to this at least:
23:26 < genehacker2> http://www.google.com/url?q=http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA273824&sa=U&start=8&ei=GM9vStb1JNC3lAe4oKDJBQ&sig2=i1vRy1mwdXW3h-ugosacDw&usg=AFQjCNGk63Jv5wksOhCrya25IvvvciD6fw
23:27 < genehacker2> but i'm not so sure
23:27 < ybit> did jonathin cline and david treadwell ever do anything with the circuit printing from inkjet printers?
23:27 < ybit> it turned into a 'hey let's meet up for lunch' thread
23:27 < genehacker2> yeah but fenn the ionosphere has resistance superconductors don't
23:27 < fenn> if they did they aren't saying
23:28 < fenn> genehacker2: well why don't you just throw an AB-superreactor at it
23:28 < fenn> one that converts matter to antimatter (using AB-matter in the process of course)
23:28 < genehacker2> huh?
23:28 < fenn> it's possible according to the laws of physics!
23:29 < genehacker2> because no on'
23:29 < genehacker2> *one has made AB matter
23:29 < QuantumG> a what now?
23:29 < fenn> QuantumG: i'm mocking bolonkin, if that weren't clear
23:29 < QuantumG> ahh
23:29 < QuantumG> I got him removed from wikipedia
23:29 < QuantumG> did you see?
23:29 < genehacker2> nah
23:30 < fenn> no, why?
23:30 < QuantumG> biography of a living person
23:30 < fenn> what's wrong with that?
23:30 < QuantumG> orphaned
23:30 < QuantumG> no third party verification
23:30 < fenn> i don't get deletionists
23:30 < genehacker2> oh nice
23:31 < QuantumG> he's a dick trying to use wikipedia to improve his credibility
23:31 < fenn> then you should say that instead of just deleting everything
23:31 < QuantumG> well, if I had added that to his page then he would have complained and then the admins would have removed it anyway
23:32 < fenn> meh
23:32 < QuantumG> so I just cut out the middleman
23:32 < genehacker2> anyway five bucks to whoever shows that using a ferromagnetic magnetic shield to shield half of a current loop does or doesn't create a net force
23:33 < fenn> genehacker2: to what degree of precision
23:33 < genehacker2> ???
23:34 < fenn> i assume you mean with a magnetic field perpendicular to the axis of the coil
23:34 < genehacker2> yeah
23:34 < genehacker2> and shield
23:34 < fenn> you know metallic objects distort magnetic field lines right?
23:34 < genehacker2> yes
23:34 < fenn> metallic objects such as ... ferromagnetic shields
23:34 < genehacker2> I know
23:34 < genehacker2> that's how they work
23:35 < fenn> so, uh.. it's a difficult experiment
23:35 < genehacker2> not really
23:38 < genehacker2> just get yourself a nice big ferrite wrap some copper wire around it put some current through it and put in uniform magnetic field
23:38 < fenn> note to self: check out diseasome and gephi
23:38 < genehacker2> check to see if there's a net force
23:42 < fenn> http://ffffound.com/image/65ea9b1c2e1197aa3fce7f8d0e2e936865dfe861?c=50714