--- Day changed Mon Aug 24 2009
00:01 < ybit> I struggle with 'wasting time', watching movies, playing games, watching sports, 'chilling' with friends, anything not to do with what I would like to be doing which is in making progress scientifically or technologically. And maybe it comes down to not having an understanding of sanity?
00:02 < katsmeow-afk> i think sanity is having a ruleset that is tidy, that others mostly agree to, and at least don't beat you up with it
00:04 < ybit> I view some things that I do as acceptable even if it's not improving scientific or technical advancement because some studies point towards the fact that it may increase my chances of staying alive
00:04 < ybit> sorry for the late night philosophy
00:04 < ybit> that others mostly agree to == a majority of others?
00:04 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, i have always had problems with "worth", productivity, interfacing to humans
00:05 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
00:05 < ybit> what is this ruleset? and what do you mean by tidy?
00:05 < fenn> value system
00:05 < katsmeow-afk> like, if you vote for Clinton and 99% of people are republicans, they'd proll lynch you
00:05 < fenn> also interpretation of the world
00:05 < fenn> two people can see the same thing and understand it differently
00:06 < katsmeow-afk> tidy = no internal conflicts
00:06 < katsmeow-afk> tidy = few unresolved rules
00:06 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: even mathematics can't be proven self consistent
00:06 < katsmeow-afk> as  long as you don't need hospitalisation for that fenn, i don't care :-)
00:08 < fenn> ybit did you ever read the reciprocality website?
00:10 < ybit> fenn: no
00:11 < ybit> do you have a link by chance?
00:11 < katsmeow-afk> or on purpose?
00:11 < ybit> eh?
00:11 < fenn> apparently all mirrors without junk attached have disappeared
00:11 < fenn> anyway, just ignore the crap at the top: http://www.buildfreedom.com/content/reciprocality/
00:12 < fenn> M0 relates to your question about why people watch sports
00:12 < fenn> or why people put up with pointless bullshit in general
00:15 < ybit> looks like i have some decent reading in the morning, ty
00:15 < katsmeow-afk> ditto, ty
00:16 < ybit> thanks katsmeow-afk for the idea of a ruleset/value system
00:16 < ybit> gives me something to ponder about
00:16 < ybit> while drifting to bed
00:17 < katsmeow-afk> <curtsey>
00:23 < ybit> browsing history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(personal_and_cultural) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_ethic_value#Absolute_and_relative -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenal and then who knows where. some protocol for mapping connections formed from reading or otherwise... ideamap mindmap? i forget if there's a term for this.. would be useful in having some process analyzing this for future discoveries/insights
00:24  * ybit is hoping someone links me to work on this already
00:24 < katsmeow-afk> and ai
00:24 < katsmeow-afk> look for "internal language"
00:25 < fenn> memex++
00:25 < katsmeow-afk> if you lack the internal representation for a concept, you cannot use it
00:25 < katsmeow-afk> if you cannot form links across concepts, you cannot form new ones or differentiate them
00:26 < fenn> "surf tree" is a phrase i just came up with
00:27 < fenn> "associative trail" is the official phrase, but i think it ignores the exploratory multi-branching nature of real surfing
00:27 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: first wikipedia result from "internal language" google search result is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolinguistics
00:28 < ybit> fenn: nice point
00:28 -!- splicer [n=patrik@81.224.100.55] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
00:30 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-language#.22I-Language.22_and_.22E-Language.22  ...katsmeow-afk, you were referencing chomsky? 
00:30 < katsmeow-afk> i suspect every topic can reference him, heh
00:32 < katsmeow-afk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalism_(psychology)
00:32 < fenn> "colorless green ideas sleep furiously"
00:32 < fenn> i love it
00:33 < fenn> FURIOUSLY
00:33 -!- fenn changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: COLORLESS GREEN IDEAS SLEEP FURIOUSLY
00:33 < katsmeow-afk> my parser found 3 more valid parses to "time flies like an arrow" than in literature back then
00:34 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@128.62.129.174] has joined #hplusroadmap
00:34 < genehacker> topic?
00:34 < genehacker> is weird
00:34 < ybit> genehacker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously
00:35 < genehacker> oh
00:35 < genehacker> so you might have graph grammar problems?
00:35 < ybit> hehe, it's about time for my colorless green ideas to sleep furiously as well :)
00:35 < katsmeow-afk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology
00:36 < katsmeow-afk> cogitate on that :-)
00:36 < ybit> genehacker: i brought up some philosophical questions... i'll link you to the log..
00:37 < genehacker> well if the grammar is written right the worst we'll get is an ugly looking machine
00:37 < fenn> ugliness is not to be tolerated
00:37 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/d7fca37c7
00:37 < ybit> genehacker ^
00:38 < katsmeow-afk> oh, reason repraps won't be widespread: emissions from the solvents used in the liquid plastics
00:38 < genehacker> ???
00:38 < fenn> there aren't any liquid plastics
00:38 < fenn> er, at least none with solvents
00:38 < katsmeow-afk> nothing dries, or outgasses?
00:38 < fenn> not really
00:38 < katsmeow-afk> k
00:38 < genehacker> katsmeow-afk, I think reprap is an evolutionary dead end
00:38 < fenn> you could make a reprap out of glass if you wanted
00:39 < ybit> genehacker: how so?
00:39 < katsmeow-afk> a glas menting glass curcible?
00:39 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: no of course not
00:39 < genehacker> printed parts aren't nearly as good as parts produced by subtractive processes
00:39 < fenn> there has to be some kind of orthogonal material transformation (for lack of a better word)
00:39 < genehacker> ????
00:40 < fenn> temperature is a basis vector
00:40 < fenn> solvency is a basis vector
00:40 < genehacker> huh?
00:40 < ybit> genehacker: because it doesn't have a surf tree analyzing ai?
00:40 < fenn> uh.. i can't think of any other transformation vectors, sorry
00:40 < ybit> er, maybe that's called agi
00:40 < genehacker> no because it can't make good parts
00:41 < fenn> good meaning what?
00:41 < ybit> surf tree analyzing ai == agi, si?
00:41 < genehacker> read towards cyclic fabrication
00:41 < fenn> ybit: not necessarily
00:41 < genehacker> for modular robotics and manufacturing
00:41 < QuantumG> I think the problem with reprap is that it is all about making parts and not at all about assembling them.. or at least, last time I looked it was
00:42 < genehacker> I think reprap needs to go subtractive
00:42 < fenn> ybit: hidden markov models do what you mean (i think) but aren't obviously intelligent
00:42 < genehacker> quantumG have you read that paper yet?
00:42 < genehacker> maybe not a dead end
00:42 < genehacker> darwin is a dead end at least
00:42 < fenn> the problem with reprap is they are mass producing them in factories
00:42 < genehacker> mass producing them? 
00:42 < genehacker> heh
00:42 < fenn> well, almost
00:43 < QuantumG> the cyclic fabrication one, yeah, pretty cool
00:43 < genehacker> more like limited volume production
00:43 < fenn> it's a great example of an open hardware project
00:43 < genehacker> very cool
00:43 < genehacker> reprap needs to go in that direction
00:43 < fenn> ah.. quenching (hardening) is another transformation basis vector
00:44 < genehacker> make a wax mold, pour goop in mold
00:44 < genehacker> yup
00:44 < fenn> and of course all of polymer chemistry
00:44 < ybit> www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss05/p16.pdf 
00:44 < ybit> "Towards cyclic fabrication systems for modular robotics and rapid ..."
00:44 < ybit> about the only paper i found on cyclic fab
00:45 < genehacker> oh cool
00:45 < fenn> genehacker: you didnt see that yesterday?
00:45 < fenn> after your rant about how cool matt moses was
00:45 < genehacker> I did
00:45 < ybit> genehacker: what paper are you referencing? 00:41 < genehacker> quantumG have you read that paper yet?
00:46 < genehacker> I didn't know the url
00:46 < ybit> didn't and do now or still don't?
00:47 < ybit> just verifying
00:48 < fenn> ah sweet sweet rationalization.. 
00:48  * ybit pokes genehacker with a tree branch
00:48 < fenn> "Therefore despite being in a massive minority in modern societies, low dopamine people have healthy brains and are normal, and everyone else has been made unwell by the M0 parasitisation of their society."
00:49 < fenn> this is much more poorly written than i remember
00:50 < katsmeow-afk> i've often thoght the world wold be better off, more advanced, without all those lacking the gift of Aspergers
00:50 < ybit> the quote is on ...http://www.datamodel.co.uk/Reciprocality/www.reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/r1/index.html
00:50 < fenn> yes that's the mirror i was looking for
00:59 < ybit> 00:42 < QuantumG> the cyclic fabrication one, yeah, pretty cool
00:59 < ybit> you are referencing a paper i'm guessing, do you have a link?
01:01 < fenn> you just pasted the link ybit
01:01 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: what are you trying to say? i don't think i have it.. what exactly are you getting at? :)
01:01 < ybit> oh, okay
01:02 < katsmeow-afk> didn't answer the question, fenn
01:02 < ybit> that was re: 0:49 < katsmeow-afk> i've often thoght the world wold be better off, more advanced, without all those lacking the gift of Aspergers
01:02 < katsmeow-afk> yeas?
01:03 < fenn> i wouldn't mind if they werent the ones with guns pointed at me
01:03 < QuantumG> http://www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss05/p16.pdf
01:03 < katsmeow-afk> i'm sorry, having trouoble understanding, what was th question?
01:03 < ybit> you think i should die is what i'm getting at ;)
01:04 < katsmeow-afk> not what i said
01:04 < ybit> go bye-bye
01:04 < ybit> etc
01:04 < katsmeow-afk> you could also infer i wished you'd been born with aspergers :-)
01:05 < QuantumG> or that you thought he had
01:05 < ybit> 00:05 < fenn> two people can see the same thing and understand it differently
01:05 < ybit> oh, so true
01:05 < fenn> good old natural language
01:06 < fenn> "the future of computer programming" yeah right
01:06  * ybit doesn't see anything unnatural about constructed languages
01:07 < ybit> er, artificial*
01:07  * fenn doesn't see anything non-ambiguous about lojban
01:07  * ybit checks in on the lojban compiler
01:08 < fenn> they got too hung up on being culture-neutral for anyone to be able to speak it
01:08 < genehacker> heh
01:09 < genehacker> esperanto has problems...
01:09 < fenn> esperanto has at least one person who can speak it :\
01:09 < ybit> i don't think anyone would speak it anyway, just like esperanto, the majority of people will learn a language that is spoken by many others (eng,span.,etc.)
01:10 < fenn> how about latin? nobody speaks latin except people who speak latin
01:10 < ybit> which isn't many
01:10 < fenn> i don't buy the chicken/egg argument
01:11 < ybit> lojban may potentially gain ground when we can change substrates and still have this need of communicating audibly?
01:11 < fenn> zroo?
01:11 < ybit> doesn't ring a bell
01:11 < fenn> substrate as in uploading?
01:12 < ybit> yeah
01:12 < fenn> are we communicating audibly right now?
01:12 < fenn> i'm sure i'm missing the point entirely
01:16 < ybit> the assumption is that most people will, if uploaded, rapidly gain the knowledge needed to understand the advantage of using a language such as lojban so that they use it... maybe there's an advantage in having conversation and thought logs in lojban for this surf tree analyzation thingie? ..or maybe there will be similar windows/linux war where some uploaded transapiens use lojban (resource efficient), representing linux and others will just use more 
01:17 < fenn> 'will just use more...'
01:17 < QuantumG> parsing english isn't really that hard.. 
01:17 < QuantumG> what's hard is figuring out something useful to parse it into
01:17 < fenn> QuantumG: but english is so ambiguous as to mean almost anything
01:17 < katsmeow-afk> or the correct intended meaning
01:18 < fenn> FURIOUSLY
01:18 < QuantumG> even if I tell you exactly what it means, I challenge you to come up with a useful representation for it.
01:18 < fenn> um, i mean, 'frsly'
01:18 < katsmeow-afk> i can : COLORLESS GREEN IDEAS SLEEP FURIOUSLY
01:19 < fenn> QuantumG: there may never be a theory of everything, but we can do a lot better than english
01:19 < ybit> i now relate that sentence to bedtime
01:19 < fenn> good night dear sir
01:19  * ybit isn't going to bed though
01:19 < fenn> but you should
01:20 < fenn> it's past your bedtime
01:20 < ybit> good point
01:20  * ybit lost track of time
01:20 < ybit> fenn convinced me to sleep :P
01:20  * ybit waves gn
01:20 < fenn> victory is mine! hahaha
01:21  * katsmeow-afk waves gnite too
01:21 < QuantumG> say you make a brand new language that is easier to parse.. what representation will you parse it into?
01:21 < fenn> QuantumG: the idea was to skip natural languages altogether and start with the desired representation
01:21 < katsmeow-afk> "internal language"
01:21 < QuantumG> define that please :)
01:21 < katsmeow-afk> the crap Cyc is saddled with
01:21 < QuantumG> ya
01:21 < QuantumG> and crap it is
01:22 < fenn> internal language means basically "data structure" right?
01:22 < QuantumG> try to represent "last night I went to the movies" in it.
01:22 < QuantumG> enjoy.
01:22 < katsmeow-afk> lol
01:22 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, rules and data and their relations to each otehr
01:22 < fenn> ok, what's so hard about that?
01:22 < katsmeow-afk> go for it :-)
01:22 < fenn> fine.
01:23 < katsmeow-afk> i feel humans have a limit to introspection, and to hard-code everything , and not allow the ai to self realise is inherently hugely and fatally flawed
01:24 < fenn> the problem is we want a definite answer
01:25 < katsmeow-afk> other than compatable rulesets, nothing must be unmodifieable , so the ai can grow and optomise and internalise unforeseen situations
01:25 < QuantumG> your representation is mostly determined by the operations you want to perform on the data, which is determined by the problem you're trying to solve.  When you try to solve "ai", the problem is so ill defined that you've got so little idea of the operations you need that you can't even begin to create a representation :)
01:25 < katsmeow-afk> sorta what QuantumG said
01:25 < fenn> meh. i think people have just been making it too complicated
01:25 < genehacker> mumbles something about deep structures
01:26 < katsmeow-afk> like said before, i dunno what my motivation is for half of what i do, like breathe
01:26 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, i agree
01:26 < QuantumG> so I gave you a trick question.. represent "last night I went to the movies".. why?  What problem are you trying to solve by representing that?
01:26 < fenn> that's a trick question?
01:27 < katsmeow-afk> QuantumG, that can evolve into a state in a timeline with "you" being "at" the "movies", and the "" cleared up later
01:27 < QuantumG> if you don't have any idea what you want to do with that fact you could quite simply store it as is.
01:27 < katsmeow-afk> true, but i feel it must belinked somehow for backtracking, hence timeline
01:28 < fenn> we'd probably want to store the date, other context info, imagined scenarios
01:28 < QuantumG> if you're trying to figure out if I attempted to murder fenn last night, you might want to store it as a timeline and incorporate information about the average duration of movies or even the schedule of movies in my local area for last night, etc.
01:28 < katsmeow-afk> we cannot imagine other scenarios
01:28 < katsmeow-afk> we dunno the duration of the movie you saw
01:28 < QuantumG> its all about the application.
01:28 < katsmeow-afk> the scedule, yeas, for verificatin, etc
01:28 < fenn> i bet it was 1.3+-0.5hr
01:29 < fenn> hmm ok longer than that
01:30 < QuantumG> but hey, if you ask anyone to define an exam for an intelligence you'll get the form:  fact, fact, fact, question.  The bastards provide it in the most difficult way possible.
01:30 < katsmeow-afk> i would not want a situation where a leading question could be asked, and illicit bad data due to guessing
01:30 < fenn> QuantumG: that's a poor definition of intelligence
01:30 < katsmeow-afk> "how did the man get downstairs after stealing the jewels" , that sorta question
01:31 < QuantumG> its a practical definition and I've come to only care about the practical definitions :)   "what can it do?" that's all that matters.
01:31 < fenn> can it predict the future? that's all that matters
01:31 < QuantumG> that's practical
01:31 < katsmeow-afk> it can tie up 100's of people and burn millions of dollars!
01:31 < QuantumG> unfortunately, also practical
01:32 < katsmeow-afk> in the right place, i spose so
01:32 < fenn> they must not be paying them very well
01:32 < QuantumG> so long as you're not paying
01:32 < QuantumG> or you're being forced to pay, thank you government
01:33 < fenn> i dont mind being forced to pay as long as i'm guaranteed a job :)
01:33 < QuantumG> slaves are guaranteed a job
01:34 < genehacker> predicting the future?
01:34 < fenn> being a slave isnt necessarily a terrible thing, it's being abused and lacking any choice that's bad
01:34 < genehacker> why don't you go see a soothsayer
01:35 < fenn> any buddhists in the audience feel free to disagree
01:36 < QuantumG> I think the lacking any choice is the part that makes you a slave :)
01:36 < katsmeow-afk> i remember when this channel had only 4 beings in it
01:36 < fenn> QuantumG: so i'm a slave to planet Earth because there's no choice but to remain here?
01:37 < katsmeow-afk> i wonder,, if you *thought* you had made the right choice, would that be slavery?
01:37  * fenn steers the meta-craft periliously close to the philosophical black hole
01:38 < fenn> nevermind. i don't have the stomach for it
01:39  * katsmeow-afk decides to make just one random ding in a thin piece of steel, just this once, and paints it with a rubber paint,, that's right, it's an isolated insident of an insolated isodent
01:39 < kanzure> so suddenly genehacker reads a paper that says the same thing we've been saying, but only now he believes it?
01:40 < QuantumG> so anyway, I prefer to define my ai as being able to participate in "what do you mean by?" conversations and "and then what happened?" conversations and "did you try?" and "maybe if you try.." conversations.. because that basically sums up 90% of the conversations I have as a programmer :)
01:40 < genehacker> saying what?
01:40 < kanzure> ybit: it's on adl
01:40 < fenn> that reprap is a dead end
01:40 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
01:40 < katsmeow-afk> yeas to QuantumG
01:40 < fenn> i never actually said that, just that they aren't really trying to go anywhere
01:40 < kanzure> fenn: there's a copy of reciprocality on archive.org
01:41 < genehacker> ok
01:41 < QuantumG> but even without that ability.. I think an ai that could do some reasoning and work towards goals would be sufficient for "fix this bug" problems.. couldn't be any worse than the jr programmers I put up with.
01:42 < genehacker> oh well I didn't really see how reprap was a dead end until now
01:42 < QuantumG> did you mention why?  I might have missed it
01:42 < genehacker> now how do we make polyurethane?
01:43 < QuantumG> the lack of assembly?
01:43 < fenn> you can't make an extruder out of melted plastic
01:43 < fenn> how do you explain the concept of "closed space" in non-mathy terms?
01:44 < genehacker> closed space?
01:44 < fenn> er, no, that was from haruhi suzumiya
01:44 < genehacker> oh that was what that was from
01:44 < QuantumG> draw a circle, say "the inside is an open space, but once you include the border, it is closed."
01:45 < QuantumG> then you can explain getting closer and closer to the border but never reaching it
01:45 < QuantumG> and how you could zoom in forever if the world was continuous.
01:45 < genehacker> why explain it in not mathy terms?
01:45 < fenn> if all you have are vectors on the X-axis, adding and subtracting them will never get you on the Y axis
01:45 < QuantumG> if they keep listening, explain limits
01:46 < fenn> In mathematics, a set is said to be closed under some operation if performance of that operation on members of the set always produces a member of the set.
01:47 < fenn> well, the same idea applies to vector spaces
01:47 < genehacker> oh shoot I remember that
01:47 < genehacker> I guess I need to reread my matrix math stuff and unzip the datafiles in my head
01:48 < genehacker> didn't really understand it
01:49 < fenn> in this case, "operation" would be something like casting or machining
01:49 < fenn> all the machining in the world won't add metal back on
01:49 < genehacker> oh
01:50 < genehacker> so reprap is a dead end because it will never be able to make the extruder with just printing
01:52 < genehacker> could you explain the operation and what is being transformed in mathematical terms
01:52 < kanzure> are you asking for fenn to be even more vague?
01:52 < genehacker> no
01:52 < genehacker> I want to see the algorithm
01:53 < fenn> here's how i see things
01:53 < fenn> there's this big physical world out there with a large number of possible states
01:53 < QuantumG> isn't this why some of the reprap guys are trying to make that metal extruder?
01:53 < fenn> there are so many states that we can't possibly imagine how to represent all of them, so we simplify and throw away some data by doing analysis
01:54 < genehacker> how are they represented numerically?
01:54 < QuantumG> how you're going to make that one is just fun with regression
01:54 < fenn> the analysis yields a set of "dimensions" which are things like charge, length, time.. or even more abstract quantities like color or cost
01:54 < kanzure> regressional analysis is sometimes known as "functional synthesis" for some weird reason
01:55 < genehacker> more than 3 dimensions
01:55 < genehacker> dang
01:55 < fenn> as many dimensions as you like
01:55 < genehacker> I really don't like things with more than 3 dimensions
01:55 < fenn> the point is they have to represent things you are interested in, as QuantumG was saying
01:55 < genehacker> because I don't have eyes to see such shapes
01:55 < fenn> stop thinking about it as shapes
01:56 < fenn> what i just did was transform reality from state space to parameter space
01:57 < genehacker> ok
01:57 < fenn> so anyway now we have a data structure with parameters like 'sphericalness=0.8' 'color=reddish'
01:57 < genehacker> ok
01:58 < fenn> this represents an actual physical object
01:58 < genehacker> understood
01:58 < genehacker> I'm hung up on the whole transformation thing
01:58 < genehacker> how that's done on something that isn't exactly numerical
01:58 < fenn> if you've designed your parameters correctly then each operation should modify one parameter only
01:59 < genehacker> what is being transformed?
01:59 < genehacker> metal into cylinders?
01:59 < fenn> do you know what principal component analysis is?
01:59 < genehacker> cylinders into cones via machining?
01:59 < genehacker> no
01:59 < fenn> not that sort of transformation
02:00 < fenn> this is more like.. the magic eye optical illusion
02:00  * QuantumG waits for you to hit the intensional/extensional inheritance roadblock.
02:00 < fenn> you're staring at all this mess and then suddenly it turns into a dolphin
02:00 < genehacker> never got those
02:00 < genehacker> I am confused
02:00 < genehacker> maybe I'm operating in lunatic mode
02:01 < fenn> it is 2 am after all
02:01 < genehacker> it is
02:01 < QuantumG> extensional inheritance: inheritance between sets based on their members, intensional inheritance: inheritance between entity-types based on their properties
02:02 < fenn> all these AI people are confusing me
02:02 < kanzure> QuantumG: I suggest you stfu
02:02 < genehacker> I should probably too
02:03 < fenn> ok so an operation does something to one of your parameters
02:03 < genehacker> oh
02:03 < fenn> a turning operation reduces the diameter of a cylinder
02:03 < fenn> a painting operation changes the color of the object
02:03 < genehacker> and that operation doesn't have to be a matrix multiplying another matrix?
02:04 < fenn> uh. sometimes matrix math just makes everything more confusing
02:04 < genehacker> yeah I think that's what confused me
02:05 < genehacker> fenn quick question
02:05 < fenn> ok so now we have a set of parameters that represent our state, and a set of operations that can modify the parameters
02:05 < genehacker> are you a mill demiexpert?
02:05 < genehacker> are there any mills with rack and pinion drives?
02:05 < fenn> the trick is to define a sequence of operations that gets you from the original state back to the original state
02:05 < genehacker> answer second question if first is yes
02:06 < fenn> genehacker: depends what you call a mill.. i just built a CNC router several months ago with rack and pinion drive
02:06 < fenn> generally they suck because there's too much backlash and not enough force to cut metal
02:07 < genehacker> ok
02:07 < genehacker> backlash can be compensated for
02:07 < fenn> not true
02:07 < genehacker> with encoders?
02:07 < fenn> if it could be compensated for, it wouldn't be a problem, but it can't
02:08 < fenn> the spindle will bounce around faster than your motors can keep up
02:08 < genehacker> how fast?
02:08 < fenn> fast enough to break your tool
02:09 < fenn> essentially the material/tool bit turns into a rack and pinion
02:09 < genehacker> I'm not cutting metal
02:09 < genehacker> I'm reading over that moses paper again
02:09 < genehacker> I'm cutting wax
02:10 < fenn> anyway are you satisfied with my explanation about closed process loops?
02:10 < genehacker> yes
02:13 < genehacker> WTF?
02:14 < genehacker> winblows media player just died
02:15 < genehacker> quicktime just died
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02:32 < fenn> "The mapper wants to move from a large mass of software to a smaller one that is more robust because of its necessary and sufficient structure. The packers are not practiced at seeing the proposed new structure, and see only a maniac who wants to change every single file in one go."
02:32 < fenn> yay mappers, woo!
02:33 < fenn> i often have to fight myself not to edit every single file in a single commit
02:39 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 198b6d8 /doc/todo/TODO: note to self
03:20 < fenn> A classic mapper/packer battleground in programming consists of the mappers seeing that with what they know now, a reimplementation could be done in a fraction of the time, and would not suffer from maintenance issues that they see looming in the existing code.
03:20 < fenn> The packers see the mappers insanely trying to destroy all their work b(as if there weren't backups), and repeat the last few months, which have been terrible because they obviously didn't know what they were doing anyway (they kept changing things).
03:20 < fenn> The intelligent organisation wants the most understanding and the least source code it can acheive. The organisation stuck in inappropriate physical mass production models doesn't count understanding, and counts its worth by its wealth of source code, piled higher and deeper.
03:24 < fenn> You will nearly always have to do a cleanup - the code that most organisations put in their repository is usually the first that passes all test cases. This does not matter. Do your own cleanup for this phase, regression test and don't even discuss your own deltas until you can see straight.
03:29  * fenn sleeps furiously
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09:58 < kanzure> fenn: did you go into the lab today?
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10:27 < fenn_adl> i was abducted by aliens
10:28 < kanzure> a likely story
10:29 < kanzure> but how am I going to deliver chocolate to entice you to write teh codez?
10:35 < kanzure> ssh darmok@tanagra
10:36 < fenn_adl> when the walls fell
12:05 < kanzure> anything exciting?
12:12 < fenn> what is the angle between (1,0,0) and (1,1,1)?
12:12 < fenn> it's some funky number i can't make sense of
12:13 < fenn> Direction(1,0,0).Angle(Direction(1,1,1))/(math.pi/180)
12:13 < fenn> 54.735610317245339
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12:18 < kanzure> qalculator has a fractionalizer
12:20 < fenn> aw now this can't be right
12:20 < fenn> Direction(1,1,0).Angle(Direction(1,1,1))/(math.pi/180)
12:20 < fenn> 35.264389682754661
12:21 < kanzure> where are these classes?
12:22 < fenn> geom
12:22 < fenn> Angle is an OCC method
12:23 < kanzure> OCC.geom or skdb.geom?
12:23 < fenn> damn acos(dot(d1,d2)) gives the same thing
12:23 < fenn> skdb.geom of course
12:24 < kanzure> maybe you don't know your angles
12:26 < fenn> it's quite possible
12:27 < fenn> so 1,1,0 to 1,1,1 is not the same as 1,0,0 to 1,0,1?
12:28 < kanzure> aren't angles in 3-space called steradians?
12:28 < fenn> now that i'm looking at it in heekscad it sems to be correct
12:29 < fenn> no a steradian is a solid angle, like angle * angle
12:29 < fenn> like square meters
12:29 < kanzure> ok
12:29 < fenn> "solid angle" doesn't really convey that does it
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12:31 < fenn> angle([1,1,0],[1,1,math.sqrt(2)])/math.pi
12:31 < fenn> 0.25000000000000006
12:31 < fenn> ok
13:04 < kanzure> well?
13:06 < fenn> well what?
13:09 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 3cd4763 /paths.py: this didn't do what i meant anyway
13:09 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 4d7be59 / (geom/geom.py paths.py): ooify Arrow, remove gp_Ax1 stuff
13:09 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 8e7acd4 /geom/geom.py: redo doc string formatting with named parameters
13:09 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 6a7e91e /geom/geom.py: clean rot
13:09 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r b0928da /geom/geom.py: remove unused code. Translation/Rotation are replacements?
13:09 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r ceba733 /unittests/test_geom.py: remove unused tests
13:09 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 1e706dc /paths.py: test_coordinate_arrows works
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13:12 < fenn> i'm still trying to test build_trsf
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13:21 < kanzure> test_coordinate_arrows works?
13:26 < fenn> http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/coordinate_arrows.png http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/coordinate_flags.png http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/coordinate_flags2.png
13:27 < kanzure> devil magic
13:27 < kanzure> how'd you manage this?
13:27 < fenn> it's basically the same code i had originally
13:27 < kanzure> are you using SetTransformation?
13:27 < fenn> using point_shape (now called point_along)
13:27 < fenn> no, not using SetTransformation
13:28 < fenn> still working on that
13:28 < fenn> it seems to be correct so far but i dont really know how to test it rigorously
13:29 < fenn> i guess i could just throw some legos at it, but you can never tell which part of the code is broken
13:30 < fenn> right now i'm just trying to make 4 legos around the origin but that's not working so well (it only makes 3?)
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14:01 < genehacker> network trouble
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14:12 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rss/journals/institute-of-physics/
14:13 < kanzure> the institute of physics has a journal of neural engineering? huh
14:14 < genehackercloneo> QUANTUM NEUROSCIENCE!
14:15 < genehackercloneo> probably has something to do with MRI machines
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14:21 < genehackerclone2> whoa
14:21 < genehackerclone2> network is going mad
14:25 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 7a47b06 / (geom/geom.py paths.py unittests/test_geom.py): redo build_trsf to not use SetTransformation, not working yet
14:26 < fenn> kanzure: i hope you can figure out why the green and yellow bricks overlap (are my vectors correct?)
14:26 < fenn> run paths.py
14:31 < kanzure> how do I rm a file with a ^M in it?
14:31 < fenn> rm ./foo*
14:32 < fenn> i guess
14:32 < kanzure> eh, I got it, but I had to move some other files around because the difference between those files and the one file that I wanted to delete was the special character in the spot where * would have been, but anyway
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14:58 < fenn> kanzure: *poke*
14:58 < fenn> any idea?
15:06 < kanzure> blargh
15:06 < kanzure> sorry was on the phone with alex
15:07 < kanzure> er my brain is in talking-with-a-millionaire mode atm
15:08 < kanzure> he got three or four calls in a one minute thirty second time span
15:08 < fenn> poor guy
15:09 < kanzure> so now I'm on like meta-hold or something
15:13 < fenn> i guess that puts me on meta meta hold
15:13  * kanzure hangs fenn up
15:14  * fenn drips on the floor
15:14 < kanzure> a phone doesn't drip on the floor
15:14 < genehackerclone2> it does when it's turned to liquid
15:14 < genehackerclone2> by either heat or solvent
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15:38 < drazak_> man
15:38 < drazak_> I'm making cDNA
15:47 < kanzure> the million dollar callback
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15:52 < xp_prg> I need help design my biopython synthetic biology class, anyone want to help me?
15:53 < kanzure> did you write a synthetic biology module for biopython?
15:53 < xp_prg> no
15:53 < xp_prg> but I will probably do so :>
15:53 < kanzure> what will it include?
15:54 < xp_prg> probably inference routines to design the genese necessary for certain chemical pathways
15:54 < xp_prg> Kanzure are you aware of any good opensource design tools for synthetic biology?
15:54 < kanzure> but you're doing a class before you write the code?
15:54 < xp_prg> ya
15:54 < kanzure> why
15:54 < kanzure> why not do it the other way around?
15:55 < xp_prg> so I can get people to help me make the code
15:55 < kanzure> that's not what a class is for
15:55 < xp_prg> http://openwetware.org/wiki/Endy:Notebook/BioBrick_Studio-List 
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15:55 < xp_prg> this was supposed to show programs for synthetic biology and nothing is there
15:55 < xp_prg> Kanzure I can show them how to work with dna etc...
15:55 < kanzure> try celldesigner and taverna
15:56 < xp_prg> with biopython, it won't be a waste of time
15:56 < kanzure> but biopython already does that
15:56 < xp_prg> right I am going to teach a class on biopython, what is hard to understand?!
15:56 < kanzure> you said something about a synthetic biology class
15:56 < xp_prg> yes using biopython for synthetic biology
15:56 < kanzure> and then I asked if you had a synthetic biology module written
15:56 < kanzure> and you said no
15:56 < kanzure> so then I asked shouldn't you do it the other way around
15:57 < xp_prg> there are libraries I can use for synthetic biology but are not necessarily packaged in that way right now
15:57 < kanzure> libsbml looks fine to me imho
15:57 < kanzure> honestly I think you should write the code first, then offer a class after you released the source code
15:57 < kanzure> otherwise you're just stealing these people's money
15:58 < xp_prg> its going to be a free class
15:58 < xp_prg> chill!!!!!!!!!
15:58 < kanzure> well you haven't written any of the code that you claim the class is about
15:58 < kanzure> honestly I'm skeptical
15:58 < xp_prg> help me make the lesson plan, I will write the code, I am a python programmer etc...
15:58 < xp_prg> I did write some code for you if you recall
15:58 < kanzure> aren't you supposed to be the teacher
15:59 < kanzure> of this class?
15:59 < xp_prg> yes
15:59 < kanzure> and you don't have a lesson plan?
15:59 < kanzure> and you don't have any synthetic biology module code written for biopython?
15:59 < kanzure> honestly I don't see the point
15:59 < kanzure> you have nothing apparently
16:00 < kanzure> so why did you announce it on the mailing list already?
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16:00 < xp_prg> dude I will have something
16:00 < kanzure> but you already announced that you did
16:00 < xp_prg> people are asking me to teach classes
16:00 < kanzure> why? you're hardly qualified.. sorry.
16:00 < xp_prg> they think so
16:00 < xp_prg> instead of being difficult, how about helping me for a sec?
16:01 < kanzure> I'm trying to show you that you're lying to them
16:01 < kanzure> you made a fake announcement, you don't have any lesson plans, and you have no code
16:01 < kanzure> why should I help you?
16:01 < xp_prg> because it is the fist time in the history of diybio a class will be taught at the Tech Shop specifically for synthetic biology
16:01 < xp_prg> who cares if I am the person who teaches it or not
16:01 < kanzure> it sounds like it's going to suck
16:02 < kanzure> because you've offered a class without any substance
16:02 < xp_prg> it won't suck if I have a good lesson plan
16:02 < kanzure> maybe you should come up with a lesson plan before you promise them a class?
16:02 < xp_prg> did you see my last diybio virtual meeting?
16:03 < xp_prg> I spent 97 minutes talking about stuff
16:03 < kanzure> ok?
16:03 < xp_prg> somone requested I write an article on gfp for their magazine
16:03 < kanzure> so?
16:04 < xp_prg> dude if you don't want to help me then don't, but stop waisting my time
16:04 < kanzure> hahah
16:05 < kanzure> you're wasting *my* time by saying you have a class but you don't
16:05 < kanzure> who's wasting who's time?
16:06 < kanzure> how about you write some code first, then show it to me?
16:06 < kanzure> then maybe I can help you debug it ok?
16:06 < kanzure> otherwise you're just bullshitting me
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16:07 < xp_prg> I have written code for you
16:07 < kanzure> honestly I don't think they need to be taught biobench.swf
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16:08 < xp_prg> but the ideas are useful, I can teach those, they are real, its not just nothingness like you think!
16:09 < kanzure> what?
16:09 < xp_prg> how about being more constructive and helping me?
16:09 < kanzure> you ever hear the phrase "you can't help he who doesn't help himself" ?
16:09 < xp_prg> bio bricks, codons, gfp, designing genes etc...
16:09 < kanzure> what about it?
16:09 < xp_prg> I will teach that
16:09 < kanzure> you will teach what?
16:09 < xp_prg> trying to think of the right way to present that in a lesson plan
16:09 < xp_prg> yes I will
16:09 < kanzure> what are you going to present?
16:10 < xp_prg> synthetic biology common practices using bio python
16:10 < kanzure> what common practices?
16:10 < xp_prg> design of proteins and reverse engineerinng the dna to transcribe such proteins
16:11 < kanzure> IMHO it sounds like you're just spouting out buzzwords
16:11 < xp_prg> kanzure I know these concepts
16:11 < kanzure> I know how to do reverse transcription, but do you really need to teach people how to do rna.to_dna() ?
16:11 < xp_prg> I am not an expert at them but I know them
16:11 < kanzure> so what if you know them?
16:11 < kanzure> sigh
16:11 < kanzure> you're just giving me a list of words
16:11 < xp_prg> they want to kno them!
16:11 < kanzure> a list of words?
16:11 < xp_prg> its a class
16:11 < kanzure> they can read the dictionary
16:12 < xp_prg> well I want to make it more than just words and stuff, can you help me to make it better?
16:12 < xp_prg> I will give you credit in the class for your help :>
16:12 < kanzure> the problem is that it seems like you only know the words
16:12 < kanzure> I can't help you if this is all you know
16:12 < xp_prg> well ask me questions if you think I don't know anything
16:12 < xp_prg> I know more than you think, go ahead
16:13 < kanzure> but I don't want to ask you anything
16:13 < kanzure> I just want you to write the damn code you're telling these people you have
16:13 < xp_prg> *sigh* I will man, maybe not in the first class but there is enough biopython to teach a first class on
16:14 < kanzure> well ok then we'll wait until you're ready.
16:14 < xp_prg> you can't give me any ideas on synthetic biology concepts for my lesson plan?
16:15 < xp_prg> 231
16:15 < xp_prg> oops wrong window
16:15 < kanzure> maybe you should read the wikipedia article
16:16 < kanzure> string grammars and biobrick compatibility analysis would be a good topic
16:16 < xp_prg> I am looking for more current stuff, the latest techniques, you know more than I do on that stuff, I was hoping you could fill me in a little on it so I could at least present on it
16:16 < kanzure> metabolic network xenotransplantation
16:16 < xp_prg> oh cool, I was thinking of that as well!
16:16 < kanzure> genetic dependency analysis and transplantation
16:17 < xp_prg> excellent ok!
16:17 < kanzure> what?
16:17 < xp_prg> would it be ok if I came up with my lesson plan and you reviewed it for correctness?
16:17 < xp_prg> it will be opensource
16:17 < kanzure> you mean it will be GFDL?
16:18 < xp_prg> I only know gpl
16:18 < kanzure> gpl is for software
16:19 < kanzure> if you email me something, I'll probably read it
16:19 < xp_prg> sweet thanks for these ideas
16:19 < kanzure> do you know what they mean?
16:19 < xp_prg> It would be awsome if I could like show them some example of microfluidics in synthetic biology
16:19 < kanzure> I thought you were doing biopython?
16:20 < xp_prg> did I tell you I saw the lazer at the tech shop cutting arcylic?
16:20 < xp_prg> I can make a microfluidic arcylic solution
16:20 < ybit> should i toss copper wire away or store it? /me is curious what others think
16:20 < kanzure> how much?
16:22 < kanzure> hm is there a way to get LWP::Simple to follow 302s?
16:23 < drazak_> kanzure: do you know how to read spectometer readings of RNA?
16:23 < drazak_> kanzure: I know that 260/280 is purity, what's 260/230?
16:24 < ybit> oh right, so it's about 20awg and about 609cm in length
16:24 < kanzure> drazak_: no, I don't even know what units those are
16:24 < drazak_> kanzure: wavelength
16:25 < ybit> every little bit helps?..
16:25 < kanzure> ybit: 6m sounds substantial
16:25 < kanzure> drazak_: what does 260/280 refer to? which one is the wavelength?
16:29 < kanzure> are you saying 260 is shifted to 280?
16:29 < drazak_> no
16:30 < drazak_> you take the response at wavelength 260 and divide by wavelength 280
16:30 < drazak_> angstroms, for both
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16:34 < genehacker> so you got a callback?
16:34 < kanzure> http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1345099&cid=29171455 "This is not to say that there isn't come magic genetic 'sudo' command that allows you to ask for a left kidney, medium size, but we haven't seen any sign of it yet."
16:35 < kanzure> no, not yet
16:40 < genehacker> heh
16:41 < kanzure> "
16:41 < kanzure> "Hello, this is tech support. We are seeing a large number of not-auth entries in your sudoer's log file. There are a great deal of entries for 'lolcat' for commands like 'get treat,' 'clean box' and 'tummy rub'..." "
16:41 < bkero> om nom
16:42 < genehacker> heh
16:42 < kanzure> the image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/xeni/2453834326/
16:42 < genehacker> I really need some phosphoramidite nucleosides
16:42 < genehacker> or at least protecting groups to make em
16:44 < kanzure> what the fuck?
16:44 < kanzure> http://www.saibot-1.com/
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16:56 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r baef9be /doc/proposals/make_bot.py: pull yourself together, bot!
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17:08 < genehackercloneo> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/nyregion/23about.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=oven&st=cse
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17:33 < genehacker243251> dang it
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17:33 < genehacker243251> matlab won't let me make a bigger matrix
17:38 < genehacker243251> kanzure can I commit matlab code?
17:39 < fenn> matlab code?
17:39 < drazak_> I am swimming in coffee
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17:46 < genehacker> yes
17:46 < genehacker> for making cycloidal gear profiles
17:54 < kanzure> genehacker: yes you can commit matlab code
17:54 < genehacker> how?
17:54 < kanzure> it's just two or three commands if you're on linux
17:54 < kanzure> are you on linux?
17:54 < genehacker> no
17:54 < genehacker> can't run citrix in linux
17:54 < kanzure> well when you are, I can walk you through it I guess
17:55 < kanzure> do you have the code on your hard drive?
17:55 < genehacker> no
17:55 < kanzure> oh, well a first step would be putting it on your hard drive
17:55 < genehacker> oh wait
18:00 < fenn> just put it on pastebin
18:26 < kanzure> genehacker: do you have it?
18:38 < ybit> what chemicals are produced during sexual intercourse?
18:38 < ybit> human sexual intercourse*
18:39 < ybit> oxytocin and dopamine i'm aware of, but aren't there others?
18:41 < ybit> Vasopressin
18:42 < ybit> http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=567964
18:43 < ybit> "The science of sex"
18:46  * ybit wants to know where the papers are
18:48 < ybit> "These studies have generated testable hypotheses regarding the motivational systems and underlying molecular neurobiology involved in social engagement and social bond formation that may have important implications for the core social deficits characterizing autism spectrum disorders."
18:49 < ybit> ^ http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/361/1476/2187.abstract :: "Oxytocin, vasopressin and pair bonding: implications for autism"
18:50 < ybit> just trying to find an alternative to regulating these chemicals aside from sexual intercourse
18:58 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_steroid maybe?
19:00 < kanzure> oxytocin and dopamine have broad and general targets
19:00 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/women/
19:00 < kanzure> hm my women folder is down?
19:01 < ybit> alright, enough of that. anyway, the reason i was asking about e-bombs yesterday is because i was thinking of future substrates for the mind and protecting the from destruction
19:01 < kanzure> had various papers on bartholin's glands and breast SNP papers or something
19:02 < ybit> enough of that because masturbation has too many benefits that we may not be able to facilitate atm
19:04 < ybit> just read a study showing that guys in their 20s who do it ~4-6x week had about 1/3 less chance of having testicular cancer
19:05 < ybit> mostly though, i'd like to know every chemical associated with any type of sexual intercourse what their specific functions are </me wishes>
19:05 < ybit> time to get cracking on the bran.yaml
19:05 < ybit> brain*
19:06 < kanzure> branflakes
19:06 < fenn> cracklin oat brain
19:08 -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: ANGRY. I'm an ANGRY scientist. ..but, am I angry enough?
19:08 < ybit> grrs
19:09 < ybit> is the angry scientist comment from some presentation?
19:09 -!- any92737883 [n=someone@75-120-46-2.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:09 < kanzure> no
19:09 < ybit> reference please?
19:09 < kanzure> Sheep in the Big City
19:10 < drazak_> tarbo2_: serotonin is increased by dopamine
19:10 < drazak_> iirc
19:10 < kanzure> serotonin and dopamine are implicated in almost everything
19:11 < kanzure> sorry, you'll have to be more specific than that
19:11 < drazak_> er
19:11 < drazak_> that was for ybit
19:17 < genehacker> kanzure it needs to be commented and cleaned
19:22 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-31-220.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:23 -!- Phreedom_ [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
19:23 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:57 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r d396130 /doc/proposals/files-vs-database: blarg
19:57 < CIA-32> skdb: fenn * r 89bd4ee / (4 files in 4 dirs): Merge branch 'master' of ssh://adl.serveftp.org/var/www/skdb
20:06 -!- genehacker243251 [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:11 < ybit> is anyone working on an flos exoskeleton?
20:11 < genehacker243251> flos?
20:12 < ybit> free/libre open source
20:12 < genehacker243251> maybe
20:12 < ybit> you know of someone?
20:13 < kanzure> fenn: http://www.skype.com/go/getskype-linux-deb
20:14 < ybit> boooh to skype 
20:15 < ybit> also get the skype call recorder why your at it
20:15 < ybit> think it's in one of the ubuntu repos 
20:17 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:17 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:17 -!- genehackercloneo [i=genehack@resnet-47-46.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:17 < genehacker243251> whoa
20:17 < genehacker243251> NETWORK MADNESS
20:18 < ybit> so... genehacker243251 do you know of someone who is working on such an exoskeleton?
20:19 < ybit> http://personalrobotics.stanford.edu/
20:19 < ybit> long time since i've seen this
20:20 < ybit> i still want it
20:20 < fenn> is skype substantially different from VOIP/SIP besides being a pain in my ass?
20:21 < kanzure> just dpkg -i the deb
20:21 < fenn> why am i using skype again?
20:21 < kanzure> because someone might give you or me money?
20:21 < ybit> http://personalrobotics.intel-research.net/papers.php
20:21 < fenn> i don't really see the connection there
20:22 < ybit> because the guy who may give you money uses skype?
20:22 < ybit> alternatives: sip | mumble
20:23 < fenn> it's so past my bedtime
20:23 < kanzure> fenn: stay up for maybe one more hour?
20:23 < fenn> awake != intelligent and useful
20:23 < ybit> http://stair.stanford.edu/papers.php
20:24 < genehacker243251> sleep is for slackers
20:25 < fenn> why does everyone have to pounce on me at 7 pm on monday
20:25 < fenn> with 0 warning
20:25 < fenn> this is stupid
20:25 < fenn> fuck telephones
20:25 < kanzure> it turns out he would prefer not using the telephone
20:28 -!- any92737883 is now known as katsmeow
20:28 < genehacker243251> hmmm....
20:28 < genehacker243251> now should I give matlab more memory or not?
20:28 < kanzure> cut it off 
20:28 -!- Joseph [n=chatzill@adsl-157-138-244.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:29 < kanzure> hey Joseph
20:29 < genehacker243251> If I give matlab more memory then I risk crashing the appserver
20:29 < genehacker243251> otherwise I risk not having my part
20:29 < Joseph> Ok I am in here
20:30 < Joseph> nothing very new to report on the pcr, I am trying to see if the chem prof has the old prototype that was done in 07
20:30 < kanzure> so I was hoping to make sure we're all on the same page
20:30 < kanzure> IIRC, this was the $10 thermocycler paper right?
20:30 < genehacker243251> pcr machines?
20:30 < Joseph> correct
20:30 < genehacker243251> oh that
20:31 < Joseph> we need to either get this old demo or build something comparable
20:31 < Joseph> for showing in San Diego and or Bay area
20:31 < fenn> the light bulb + flower pot?
20:31 < fenn> or the resistor + teflon tubing?
20:31 < genehacker243251> got the design for the old demo?
20:31 < kanzure> hold on I'm finding the link
20:31 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:31 < Joseph> I don't know the status of the other diy projects was actuall going to hear from Mac about whatever Tito's group was doing
20:31 < genehacker243251> I got access to a machine shop
20:31 < kanzure> hey parolang 
20:31 < parolang> hi
20:31 < genehacker243251> unfortunately others don't
20:32 < kanzure> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/resolvedoi?DOI=10.1002/ange.200700306
20:32 < kanzure> "A pocket sized convective thermocycler"
20:32 < parolang> Saw an article with transhumanist theme on slashdot, rekindled my interest for the moment. Thought I'd lurk to see what's going on :)
20:32 < kanzure> by Ugaz @ tamu
20:32 < genehacker243251> oh dear god what have I done
20:33 < genehacker243251> tamu?
20:33 < kanzure> genehacker243251: Joseph has bought the licensing rights to the device
20:33 < genehacker243251> do we have someone from a&m?
20:33 < Joseph> correct
20:33 < kanzure> no
20:33 < Joseph> we have the original inventor Nitin
20:33 < Joseph> who has moved on
20:33 < genehacker243251> and what do you intend to do with them?
20:33 < fenn> http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/A%20Pocket-Sezied%20Convective%20PCR%20Thermocycler.pdf
20:33 < kanzure> sezied?
20:33 < kanzure> typo fenn?
20:33 < fenn> i didnt typo it
20:33 < kanzure> huh
20:33 < genehacker243251> yeah I know that paper
20:34 < Joseph> at a lab now at Washington, then prof Ugaz is supposed to do some work with us
20:34 < Joseph> Ok so we got the option to license it, 18 month period
20:34 < kanzure> anyway it was just a battery and some plastic capillary IIRC
20:34 < Joseph> and informal agreement to give TAMU 3% or something on each unit that is eventually sold
20:34 < ybit> so what's the big deal about licensing the device?
20:34 < kanzure> a heat block assembly, a flow loop, a small PCB
20:34 < Joseph> we had to go through them to get it--they followed up the provisional patent, thought it had potential
20:35 < Joseph> otherwise could have just picked up the design
20:35 < Joseph> but if it became popular, they would find out and shut us down
20:35 < genehacker243251> so is anything being done with it or is it stagnating?
20:35 < Joseph> just blackmail money pretty much
20:35 < Joseph> It was sitting there 
20:35 < Joseph> until I found some folks to make them an offer
20:35 < genehacker243251> was or is?
20:35 < Joseph> Most university tech is like this
20:35 < genehacker243251> oh
20:36 < kanzure> the idea is that the flow takes a longer time to go through the extension portion of the process on the extension portion of the tube
20:36 < Joseph> Now we have our group together but trying to replicate the prototype and improve from proof of principle
20:36 < Joseph> to commercial ready
20:36 < Joseph> and we've not raised any money yet
20:36 < fenn> who is "our group"?
20:36 < kanzure> not sure how the flow control works though
20:36 < Joseph> Jim Harday, Guido, Rik Weihberg, and Rob Carlson
20:37 < Joseph> Biodesic is the company Rob/Rik
20:37 < genehacker243251> didn't think there was any flow control kanzure
20:37 < genehacker243251> did you read any of that microfluidics book I sent you
20:37 < fenn> Joseph: are there any engineers in the group?
20:37 < kanzure> genehacker243251: then how do you make sure it moves? just thermal convection?
20:37 < Joseph> right
20:37 < Joseph> Rob is microfluidics
20:37 < Joseph> Rik is electrical
20:37 < Joseph> we initially thought they would do this phase at cost
20:37 < Joseph> now there are cold feet
20:38 < Joseph> rumblings of not being able to work for free
20:38 < Joseph> trying to sort this out
20:38 < fenn> i can understand.. you want people to do free work and then sell the result
20:38 < Joseph> well
20:38 < Joseph> we want to all be on board 
20:38 < Joseph> to share any upside
20:38 < Joseph> I am happy to bring anybody in
20:38 < Joseph> with equity
20:38 < Joseph> or contract stipulating
20:38 < Joseph> X %
20:38 < Joseph> of revenues
20:38 < Joseph> but we have to hammer that out up front
20:39 < Joseph> it is unclear how many units it will sell, if any
20:39 < fenn> so, how much percentage is designing, programming, and building it worth? :P
20:39 < Joseph> could work on it for 12 months and go nowhere
20:39 < Joseph> well I don't know, since Jim and I are 50/50 we can then form another LLC
20:39 < Joseph> perhaps in vermonth
20:40 < Joseph> has a new virtual triple L
20:40 < Joseph> lor profit LLC
20:40 < Joseph> low
20:40 < Joseph> split % that way
20:40 < kanzure> don't you think that the magic happens in making it work, joseph?
20:40 < Joseph> sure
20:40 < Joseph> but everybody has to feel like they get what they want
20:41 < Joseph> otherwise it degenerates
20:41 < fenn> i want a pony, and some cookies, and a heart transplant
20:41 < Joseph> ha ha
20:41 < genehacker243251> there are some algorithms for doing such things
20:41 < kanzure> fenn: we've already gone over this, you have no heart
20:41 < fenn> exactly
20:41 < genehacker243251> I believe they are called pie cutting algorithms
20:41 < fenn> what's that then, an implant?
20:41 < kanzure> yes
20:42 < kanzure> genehacker243251: it doesn't matter. imho, he who does not bake the pie, shouldn't get the pie just because they were thinking of the pie
20:42 < kanzure> that's called "intellectual property bullshit"
20:42 < genehacker243251> ok
20:42 < fenn> uh oh
20:42 < fenn> i feel compelled to start philosophizing
20:42 < Joseph> I agree but am unfortunately still compelled to deal with people wanting return on investment 
20:42 < kanzure> Joseph: but really, I'd like to make this device, and I'd like to make it happen too
20:43 < kanzure> Joseph: what investment though?
20:43 < Joseph> and needing to raise capital
20:43 < kanzure> but this device just costs 10 bucks
20:43 < Joseph> We will have to specify this
20:43 < Joseph> Rob/Rik are giving radically different estimates
20:43 < Joseph> from what you think is feasible
20:43 < fenn> i don't really get why you need my help to wrap some plastic tubing around a resistor?
20:43 < Joseph> hehe
20:43 < Joseph> well this is more of a rush job to have something to show
20:44 < Joseph> in 8 wks
20:44 < fenn> on the other hand, it probably doesn't work as advertised and i'll end up re-engineering it from scratch
20:44 < Joseph> it is also valuable to replicate
20:44 < Joseph> Nitin's result
20:44 < fenn> but if i'm going to do that i would probably choose a different methodology
20:44 < Joseph> which needed to be our first step
20:44 < fenn> so. yeah.
20:44 < fenn> also have to build/acquire some way to verify that it works
20:45 < fenn> i haven't really looked into how hard it is to get PCR kits
20:45 < fenn> but then if it's easy, what is this thing for?
20:45 < genehacker243251> make magazine has some information on how to do PCR
20:45 < kanzure> genehacker243251: we know how to do pcr
20:45 < fenn> make magazine is bullshit
20:45 < genehacker243251> and most importantly how to obtain the chemicals
20:46 < Joseph> Stuff may be easy for you guys
20:46 < fenn> no, nothing is ever easy
20:46 < Joseph> but most kids are not gonna do this
20:46 < Joseph> idea is to introduce a very cheap machine
20:46 < Joseph> for those that aren't going to start out hacking
20:46 < Joseph> their own
20:47 < kanzure> Joseph: I would find it very hard to justify spending more than $10k on this project *overall*-- all the way to production of the first few kits.
20:47 < fenn> genehacker243251: is this what you were thinking of? http://makezine.com/07/fingerprinting/
20:47 < Joseph> but would buy one for lets say---right now we think 50$
20:47 < genehacker243251> yeah
20:47 < genehacker243251> they didn't even use restriction enzymes
20:47 < kanzure> so my point is that if you guys are getting so much money built up,
20:48 < kanzure> then it shouldn't be too hard to just let fenn and/or me do it well
20:48 < Joseph> sure, well
20:48 < fenn> why would you pay for a patent that hasn't been replicated?
20:48 < fenn> wtf
20:49 < Joseph> The patent is pretty much because you have to have this to play the game right now
20:50 < fenn> but you don't even know if it works
20:50 < Joseph> it is a self fulfilling prophecy more than anything else
20:50 < Joseph> that is the absurdity
20:50 < Joseph> of the system
20:50 < fenn> you don't have to tell anyone you built it
20:50 < Joseph> investors will not talk without you clearing the patent
20:50 < Joseph> you could build the thing for your own testing I guess first
20:50 < fenn> i thought the point of the investors was to pay for all this licensing crap
20:50 < Joseph> but if it works and you want to offer them for sale then you got to go through the rights holder
20:51 < kanzure> but you don't even know if it works yet
20:51 < kanzure> or if it can be repeated
20:51 < Joseph> well we have a good indication from the paper
20:51 < fenn> i'm skeptical about the whole convection thing
20:51 < kanzure> the guy who wrote the paper also got the patent
20:51 < Joseph> but I agree, I'd prefer TAMU and others had put more into this and then we pick it up--no the patent is assigned
20:51 < Joseph> to the University
20:52 < Joseph> we just contacted the inventor because he is most familiar with it
20:52 < Joseph> we have not obligation even to deal with him
20:52 < Joseph> it just sits with TAMU
20:52 < Joseph> unless somebody gets it out of purgatory
20:53 < Joseph> Nitin has moved on to a new lab, wants to continue work on his machine
20:53 < Joseph> so we will make him part
20:53 < Joseph> of the enterprise
20:53 < fenn> this is ridiculous
20:53 < Joseph> yeh well the process of forming companies is kind of ridiculous but the alternative
20:53 < Joseph> is to just throw the thing out and hope it gets made
20:54 < Joseph> and I do not think there is incentive to scale production of it
20:54 < Joseph> just by users and DIY folks
20:54 < fenn> i don't see where the market is
20:54 < Joseph> thats what we have to gauge
20:54 < Joseph> there are multiple markets
20:54 < Joseph> Defense
20:54 < fenn> *cough*yeahright*cough*
20:55 < katsmeow> usa Defense Dept??
20:55 < fenn> they're going to use some plastic tubing wrapped around a resistor to test for anthrax?
20:55 < Joseph> DOD and such have looked for cheap portable pcr for years
20:55 < Joseph> hehe
20:55 < Joseph> well the end result has to substantially more than
20:55 < Joseph> the plastic tubing
20:55 < Joseph> hence Rik/Rob's estimates
20:56 < Joseph> of 6.5 months development time and quite significant cash 80-100K
20:56 < fenn> lol
20:56 < kanzure> hahah
20:56 < fenn> how are you coming up with these numbers?
20:56 < Joseph> I've not asked for a break down yet but we can do that
20:56 < kanzure> woah
20:56 < kanzure> you can do that when?
20:56 < Joseph> just based on their industry rates
20:57 < Joseph> this is what they estimate
20:57 < Joseph> parts + the contracting rates
20:57 < fenn> rik/rob estimate they will charge 80-100k to develop a usb coffee heater?
20:57 < Joseph> which are not cheap evidently
20:57 < Joseph> ha ha
20:57 < fenn> which one of us is disconnected from reality?
20:57 < Joseph> I've not pushed them to break it down but we'll do that this week, line by line
20:58 < Joseph> Well, perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle--currently the need for profit drives costs up
20:58 < Joseph> all down the line
20:58 < Joseph> each supplier
20:58 < Joseph> has to charge above cost
20:58 < Joseph> to pay his debts
20:58 < Joseph> and it all goes back to the debt money interest paradigm
20:58 < Joseph> so indeed all this PHYSICALLY can be done much less
20:58 < fenn> i thought factories were supposed to make things cheaper
20:58 < Joseph> ECONOMICALLY it doesn't yet work this way
20:59 < kanzure> what do you mean by that?
20:59 < kanzure> for the past month I have been working on a pcr thermocycler
20:59 < Joseph> so any supplier of any widget
20:59 < kanzure> and it has had nothing to do with my economic situation
20:59 < Joseph> has to enter a market in which he's up against
20:59 < Joseph> others charging beyond cost
20:59 < kanzure> I've done simulations and some preliminary designs
20:59 < Joseph> this is the essence of profit
20:59 < kanzure> and this has costed me nothing except a few moments of my time
20:59 < Joseph> You are making for your own use
20:59 < Joseph> USE Value
20:59 < fenn> you'd have to sell 10,000 just to make up for development cost..
21:00 < Joseph> now if you are to enter and try to start making these for others
21:00 < Joseph> you will soon
21:00 < Joseph> see that you can't keep pace and fill these orders
21:00 < kanzure> yes I can
21:00 < Joseph> without then requiring more
21:00 < kanzure> I have factories
21:00 < kanzure> btw here's the simulation work I mentioned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPY84NelFO4
21:01  * fenn notes that sarcasm doesn't transfer very well on the internets
21:01 < kanzure> ok anyway
21:01 < kanzure> Joseph: I think that you're being scammed significantly
21:01 < kanzure> and for half of what the estimates are,
21:01 < kanzure> you can get a lot done
21:01 < kanzure> by you I mean we
21:02 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:02 < Joseph> Ok let me press Rik/Rob and get detailed break down
21:02 < Joseph> we will compare notes then
21:02 < ybit> so genehacker243251 you never answered.. you know of someone building an exoskeleton?
21:02 < kanzure> Joseph: ok sounds like a plan
21:02 < kanzure> Joseph: who is rik?
21:02 < ybit> some electrical guy he mentioned earlier
21:03 < Joseph> Carlson's partner
21:03 < Joseph> elec engineer
21:03 < kanzure> is that all we know about him?
21:03 < Joseph> at their design company
21:03 < Joseph> hehe
21:03 < kanzure> oh they have a design company?
21:03 < Joseph> pretty much
21:03 < Joseph> Rob's company
21:03 < Joseph> does boutique engineering
21:03 < Joseph> it seems
21:03 < kanzure> so they go around making these scams full time?
21:03 < kanzure> boutique?
21:03 < Joseph> Ha ha
21:03 < kanzure> haha
21:03 < Joseph> I dont know that they think of it as a scam
21:03 < Joseph> but they do "specialty"
21:03 < ybit> grrs, i'm going to go out on a limb and so nobody is developing an exoskeleton that is free/os
21:03 < Joseph> engineering I take it
21:03 < ybit> s/so/say
21:03 < kanzure> ybit: fenn is.
21:04 < fenn> ybit: fraid not
21:04 < fenn> it's been pushed down the priority list a ways
21:04 < kanzure> meh, skdb is part of it
21:04 < kanzure> ybit: frikin' download the repo 
21:04 < kanzure> git clone http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb.git
21:04 < kanzure> :p
21:04 < ybit> kanzure: already got it 
21:04 < kanzure> bah
21:04 < kanzure> have you installed pythonOCC yet?
21:04 < ybit> bah, i think it's more like git fetch these days
21:05 < ybit> kanzure: sometime last month
21:05 < ybit> along with occ
21:05 < Joseph> Ok I gotta get some good, we will flesh out the estimates and can hash it out
21:05 < Joseph> grub
21:05 < Joseph> food
21:05 < Joseph> I meant
21:05 < kanzure> Joseph: okay. cya :)
21:05 < Joseph> typo
21:05 < fenn> chow
21:05 < kanzure> ha
21:05 < Joseph> Ok talk soon, let me know how it goes with the LA stuff
21:05 < kanzure> yeah sure
21:06 < fenn> kanzure: this is why we need a real fab lab in austin.. i could have this done by the end of the week
21:06 < ybit> getting same output with ./wpro -r -l1 --user-agent="Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092416 Firefox/3.0.3" -A pdf http://personalrobotics.intel-research.net/papers.php
21:06 < ybit> http://code.bulix.org/ux8uhv-72038
21:07 < ybit> anyone want to take a stab at it?
21:08 < ybit> alright so nobody is developing exoskeleton, just need to grab a few papers then..
21:08 < kanzure> superkuh had some
21:11 -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/
21:12 < fenn> i would really like to at least finish the lego snapping simulator before jumping into homebrew pcr
21:12 < fenn> <- does not multitask
21:12 < kanzure> yeah I know what you mean
21:12 < kanzure> I think that's reasonable
21:13 < ybit> kanzure: i need an address to send the 1tb hdd to 
21:17 < fenn> Joseph: the spiral microfluidic pcr plate looked like a much better idea.. sorry if you wasted money on a patent
21:17 < fenn> you can control the number of cycles simply by changing the number of turns of the spiral
21:18 < fenn> i still can't figure out how you're supposed to load a sample into the TAMU device
21:19 < fenn> "PCR reagents are pipetted directly into 9cm long tubing segments and then the free ends are joined together by a small sleeve of larger diameter tygon tubing to yield a loop"
21:19 < fenn> but how do you get all the air bubbles out?
21:23 < ybit> ..unless you don't mind me mirroring fetching at certain hours
21:23 < bkero> Did somebody say homebrew pcr? :)
21:24 < bkero> kanzure: Your site's down
21:24 < ybit> new unread papers: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/?C=M;O=D
21:24 < bkero> mysql server's down really
21:26 < kanzure> bah 
21:26 < kanzure> my site is always online
21:26 < kanzure> uhrm.
21:26 < kanzure> yeah it should be up
21:26  * ybit fetches the lie detector
21:29 < ybit>        Multi-Fingered Exoskeleton Haptic Device
21:29 < ybit> using Passive Force Feedback for Dexterous Teleoperation
21:29 < ybit> http://lims.mech.northwestern.edu/projects/finger_exo/koyama_iros02-multi_fingered_exoskeleton_haptic_device.pdf
21:31 < ybit> Design of a Haptic Arm Exoskeleton for Training and Rehabilitation
21:32 < ybit> http://www.mems.rice.edu/~abhi/pubs/TMECH2006.pdf
21:41 < drazak_> kanzure: So, the blackbox idea works with plasmids in mammilian cells, however it does not work with organelles, rna alone, and protein alone in other cells
21:42 < drazak_> kanzure: IMO if you want a blackbox system you do it with plasmids in mammilian cells, we understand quite well how to make a plasmid, how to activate a plasmid, and how to insert plasmids
21:43 < kanzure> are you talking about your idea or the email on diybio
21:44 < drazak_> email on diybio
21:45 < kanzure> then I don't see how your comments from just a few seconds ago matter
21:45 < kanzure> I never said to treat an organelle as a black box
21:45 < drazak_> what I'm saying is that if you're going to try and use a biological component as a blackbox, a plasmid is the way to go, not some other component
21:54 -!- nchaimov [n=cowtown@c-24-21-45-17.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit []
21:55 < kanzure> the plasmid isn't the black box
21:55 < kanzure> the black box is computer data
21:57 < ybit> can't access http://jvc.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/12/12/1311
22:06 < kanzure> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/front-page/jlist.csv
22:06 < kanzure> i <3 pubmedcentral
22:07 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:08 < kanzure> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/front-page/jlist.csv
22:08 < kanzure> i <3 pubmedcentral
22:11 < superkuh> kanzure: My website will be down for a week or two until I can get a proper internet connection at my new apartment. (I think you were one of those mirroring /Library)
22:12 < kanzure> No, haven't been mirroring it recently. ybit in here has been asking about it recently though.
22:19 < ybit> see: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/?C=M;O=D
22:19 < ybit> quite a few exoskeleton papers and others that i just haven't moved to the folder for some reason
22:20 < ybit> and i think one of them is a repeat of what might be in microfluidics dir or the papers dir
22:22 < ybit> created an exoskeletons dir in papers/ but couldn't write to it for some reason
22:22 < ybit> either it needs to be deleted or i need write permissions to it?..
22:23 < kanzure> you're already a part of the "lab" usergroup
22:23 < kanzure> drwxr-sr-x  2 ybit   lab          4096 2009-08-24 22:10 exoskeletons
22:24 < kanzure> you have write permissions now
22:24 < ybit> yeah, it just did it
22:25 < ybit> kanzure: would you consider setting up a proxy?
22:25 < kanzure> adl isn't good enough?
22:25 < ybit> it would be much less time consuming browsing using konqueror over ssh
22:25 < ybit> took me forever to grab those papers
22:25 < kanzure> sorry, what?
22:26 < kanzure> X should work
22:26 < ybit> oh, guess that is confusing
22:26 < ybit> -X -Y works, it's just very slow
22:26 < kanzure> then just use the CLI
22:26 < ybit> right, links is fast but it can't grab certain pdfs
22:27 < ybit> and the problem with links is i don't have a quick way of copying/pasting titles when naming the downloads
22:27 < kanzure> like sciencedirect?
22:27 < kanzure> this is why I suggested writing scripts actually
22:27 < ybit> haven't tried using screen + links, but it still would be alittle slow..
22:28 < ybit> anyway, i'm wanting to grab visual prosthesis papers now
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22:30 < kanzure> vim trick: " perform a substitute on every other line
22:30 < kanzure> :g/^/ if line('.')%2|s/^/zz /
22:31 < fenn> why not just %s/\(.*\)\n.*/foo/
22:32 < kanzure> because that replaces the entire file with foo
22:33 < kanzure> anyway I ended up using: g/^/ if line('.')%2|s/\(.\)*//
22:36 < ybit> what is http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/exo
22:38 < kanzure> something about "a force-feedback arm exoskeleton for haptic interaction in virtual environments"
22:38  * ybit does need an address to send the 1tb to, it should be here by.. ?Friday?
22:38 < ybit> hrm, maybe it's a pdf..
22:38 < kanzure> it's a PDF
22:40 < QuantumG> so what's the deal with frame dragging being experimental science now.  
22:40 < QuantumG> guess it took so long because nuclear research was taking up all the big science dollars.
22:41 < QuantumG> http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.2271.pdf  for example
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22:43 < QuantumG> wonder if they'll do an even bigger scale experiment next, try something new, or just sit on their hands until the theorists can explain their results.
22:46 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk
22:48 < fenn> aether drift theory
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23:02 < kanzure> new batch: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rss/journals/springerlink/rss/
23:09 < ybit> what file(s) in skdb deals with finding other shops who might have the machines to manufacture whatever it is you need?
23:09 < ybit> doesn't smari's code do this?
23:09 < ybit> wherever that is
23:09 < fenn> yes
23:10 < fenn> it's in inventory/
23:10 < ybit> right, saw that
23:10 < fenn> it's all django stuff unfortunately
23:10 < fenn> i still don't really like django
23:10 < ybit> djangit
23:11 < fenn> too much "heavy infrastructure" fwiw
23:12 < ybit> fjarlog?
23:13 < ybit> it doesn't seem usable
23:13 < ybit> it == smari's code
23:14 < ybit> good start though
23:16 < ybit> oh, it is usable
23:16 < ybit> huh
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23:19 < genehacker> so you're going to make a thermocycler kanzure?
23:20 < kanzure> ok here we go:
23:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rss/journals/springerlink/
23:21 < kanzure> that directory contains links to all feeds for all 2,099 journals published by springerlink
23:23 < ybit> it's not hard to make the thermocycler, i am curious what type of box will be used though. 
23:23 < ybit> box/container
23:25 < genehacker> wait the DOD wants a cheap thermocycler?
23:29 < katsmeow-afk> lol
23:35 < genehacker> you can detect anthrax with PCR?
23:35 < genehacker> one can
23:37 < kanzure> $ find * -name '*.rss' | wc -l
23:37 < kanzure> 3919
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23:54 < ybit> haven't read yet: Is M0 A Racist Hypothesis? http://www.buildfreedom.com/content/reciprocality/r1/health.html