--- Day changed Tue Sep 22 2009
00:00 < ybit> ln -s /home/heath/builds/opencascade/ros/* /home/heath/builds/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin
00:03 < ybit> $ python setup.py build -NO_GEOM &> error.txt ; pastebinit error.txt
00:03 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/f23e3b851
00:03 < ybit> how's it going mason-l?
00:03 < mason-l> Good
00:04 < ybit> that's a 2817 line paste o.O
00:05 < ybit> mason-l: what have you been working on recently?
00:05 < mason-l> It also makes no sense to me whatsoever :)
00:05 < mason-l> ybit, Huge amount of thing!
00:05 < mason-l> 'things!
00:05 < mason-l> We've almost finished a working replacement of most of the core functionality provided by uzbl in python!
00:06 < mason-l> Using this http://github.com/mason-larobina/uzbl/blob/experimental/examples/data/uzbl/scripts/uzbl_tabbed.py
00:07 < mason-l> Eeek!
00:07 < mason-l> I mean this: http://github.com/mason-larobina/uzbl/blob/experimental/examples/data/uzbl/scripts/event_manager.py
00:08 < mason-l> And these plugins: http://github.com/mason-larobina/uzbl/tree/experimental/examples/data/uzbl/scripts/plugins/
00:13 < ybit> very nice, i will have to look @ it later though, because by golly, i'm going to show pythonocc who's boss tonight
00:13 < mason-l> :)
00:14 < katsmeow> been into the DHEA, ybit?
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00:15 < katsmeow> it may be after midnite, but for once it's not raining, so i may go out and do some lite arc welding for the new puter "rack"
00:15 < ybit> quick question...
00:15 < ybit> neighbors.., how do you keep the noise down katsmeow?
00:16 < ybit> because i quit welding earlier than i would have liked today because of banging on the metal with my hammer is loud and i have the garage door open in the shack
00:16 < katsmeow> noise from an arc welder?
00:16 < ybit> ..so fumes can ventilate
00:16 < ybit> noise from banging on the metal with a hammer afterward to get rid of those thingies that i can't recall the name of atm
00:17 < katsmeow> oh, well during "business hours", i don't care how much noise i make
00:17 < ybit> but it isn't business hours, so what are you doing to reduce the noise? :)
00:17 < katsmeow> i do tend to use the bandsaw inside in advance of welding aprt on, so i don't need a body grinder and abrasive disk later outside
00:18 < katsmeow> what noise??
00:18 < katsmeow> your arc welder is that noisey??
00:18 < ybit> do you not bang on the metal with a hammer?
00:18 < katsmeow> no, why would i?
00:18 < ybit> hmm
00:18 < fenn> bandsaws are awesome
00:18 < katsmeow> if i wann acleanit, i'll touch it up with a grinder/brush inside
00:19 < ybit> to get rid of the splatter deposits is why..
00:19 < ybit> oh, that works
00:20 < katsmeow> i don't have much to clamp to outside
00:20  * ybit needs to grab some metal and start working on an actual project, it might be shitty, but i'm ready to build a bench so i don't have to get on my knees and work with objects lying on the ground
00:21 < ybit> and i <3 rain, but i'm ready for it to go away for a little bit so i can work with the ac option on alluminum to see the diff in person
00:22 < ybit> unfortunately, the entire week we'll be receiving it
00:22 < katsmeow> benefits to the gnd: it won't collapse onto you, and nothing will fall off it
00:23 < katsmeow> i have several 2x4ft sheets of olde plywood just for that purpose
00:24 < katsmeow> too heavy to pick up onto ahthe table? no prob, just roll it onto the plywood
00:24 < katsmeow> altho i do have steel trusses over a couple tables, and the entire house has open wooden beams
00:26 < ybit> Linking and libraries are not things which are part of standard C
00:26 < ybit> (linking is mentioned but only in the context of what name formats are
00:26 < ybit> guaranteed to work and be unique). 
00:26 < ybit> "undefined reference" means that it can't find the function, because you
00:26 < ybit> haven't told the compiler/linker where to look for it. Adding a switch
00:26 < ybit> like -lsndfile may solve it (look at the man pages for details). 
00:26 < katsmeow> we got 3 inches here Sat and Sun nite, i imagine you got the same
00:26 < katsmeow> and more each day
00:27 < ybit> from how wet my car seat was today, i'd say it was about 3 inches here as well ;)
00:27 < katsmeow> btw, there's a hell of a squall line coming in from ks and ark tomorrow
00:30 < katsmeow> atm, there's sharp TVS and MESO tags on it in cenreal Ark
00:31 < katsmeow> coming at us at 35mph
00:34  * ybit is tired unfortunately, stupid 7 hour work days of soldering and occassionaly doing cool stuff..
00:34 < ybit> we are going to convert some pickup trucks from the junkyard though and that makes me happy
00:34 < katsmeow> to EV ?
00:35 < ybit> yeah, they are smaller sized and manual transmission
00:35 < ybit> plus the bed is great for holding batteries :)
00:35 < katsmeow> lose the trannies if you can, they are power wasters, you need only 2 gears for most stuff
00:36 < ybit> hmm
00:36 < fenn> how do you connect everything together then?
00:36 < katsmeow> ever laid paws on one after it's been driven a while? too hot, and that heat you'll be making from battery power
00:36 < genehacker> wow we got some weather heading our way too
00:36 < genehacker> oh well
00:36 < katsmeow> fenn, many are direct drive
00:37 < ybit> did anyone ever find Compatibility issues for mechanical system modelling with standard components 
00:37 < fenn> cars aren't set up right for hub motors
00:37 < katsmeow> a few have a single stage planetary witha clutch to stop the planetary ring or let it spin
00:37 < katsmeow> yeas, hubs suck
00:38 < katsmeow> i vote for 2 10-15hp motors, each driving their own rear tire, zero gearboxes
00:38 < ybit> gn all
00:39 < katsmeow> but for a truck, get the planetary or some other 2speed dealie
00:39 < fenn> sleep well, earthlings
00:39 < katsmeow> gnite ybit
00:39 < ybit> thanks katsmeow, certainly something to contemplate when i can keep my head off the pillow
00:39 < katsmeow> <curtsey>
00:40 < jonathan__> "Conductive nichrome probe tips: fabrication, characterization and application as nanotools".  Conductive nichrome probe tips have been developed as functionalized nanotools for nanoscale electrical testing and nanowelding. The apex size and shape of the ultra-sharp probes is controllable and reproducible.    doi: 10.1088/0957-4484/20/39/395708  
00:41 < katsmeow> by driving the sun gear, and the output coming fromthe planet gears, and the outer ring stopped you can get a gear reduction, turn the ring loose and a spring lockit tothe planets, and you get a straight-thru drive
00:41 < katsmeow> i don't recall who makes it
00:41 < katsmeow> why nichrome?
00:42 < fenn> "nano"
00:42 < katsmeow> i see no connection tween "nano" and "nichrome"
00:42 < katsmeow> better ductility for drawing the tip down when hot?
00:43 < jonathan__> they are chemically extending the nichrome tip from very thin nichrome wire
00:44 < jonathan__> and oxidation of the tip is not a problem with nichrome
00:44  * katsmeow nods
00:44 < genehacker> no building atomically precise structures with them though, right?
00:45 < jonathan__> it references welding
00:45 < jonathan__> nano welding
00:45 < jonathan__> i assume very good for conductivity measurement
00:46 < fenn> the new nano fits in your pocket
00:46 < jonathan__> i am curious if bio stuff reacts with nichrome negatively
00:46 < katsmeow> so weld two together for sterio pics
00:46 < genehacker> I got some nichrome wire
00:46 < genehacker> what to give it  a try?
00:47 < jonathan__> "I got some nichrome wire"    then you are obvioulsy a terrorist
00:47 < katsmeow> nickel and chrome, prolly unreactive unless it sheds atoms
00:47 < jonathan__> everyone knows nichrome is used for making bomb fuses and missles
00:47 < genehacker> you probably do too
00:47 < genehacker> I didn't
00:47 < genehacker> in any heating device
00:48 < jonathan__> sure, plead ignorance when the NSA busts in your door
00:48 < fenn> i prefer to use christmas lights and match heads
00:48 < jonathan__> I hope you dont have a goatee or a turban
00:48 < katsmeow> remember the scare in the media years ago, capacitors were only used as a bomb triggers, and i gave parts bins fullof them i was ready to go bury
00:48 < fenn> i wrap my beard around my head, that count?
00:48 < genehacker> well considering you do diybio, you might get in trouble too
00:48 < genehacker> well I don't have a goatee or a turban
00:49 < jonathan__> oh, dont point fingers at me, guilty man
00:49 < jonathan__> i won't be your patsy
00:49 < jonathan__> i bet you eat hummus, you're guilty as sin
00:49 < genehacker> hummus? HAHAHAHAHA
00:49 < fenn> mmmm
00:49 < genehacker> nah I avoid it
00:50 < fenn> i gotta find a blue state
00:50 < genehacker> they had it in the cafeteria
00:50 < genehacker> today
00:50 < jonathan__> oh,  you avoid it, clearly for religious reasons, and what religion would that be allah worshipper?
00:50 < genehacker> I opted for a peperoni pizza
00:51 < jonathan__> clearly a nihilistic terrorist, the worst kind
00:51 < jonathan__> the chair! the chair! give him the chair!
00:51 < katsmeow> i was going to cast moorish widow treatments ,, and gave that up for 9-11 :-/
00:51 < fenn> was that your 9-11 resolution?
00:52 < genehacker> oh come on jonathan, you know the CIA will find out about your secret zombie virus project sometime
00:52 < jonathan__> anyway ahh   nichrome might make for a good thermocycler
00:52 < fenn> nichrome is no end of trouble for reprap
00:52 < genehacker> how do you control the heat loss?
00:52 < fenn> just use power resistors that bolt on
00:53 < jonathan__> I assume cast the wire in heat conductive epoxy, or bake into a ceramic
00:53 < katsmeow> fenn, my9-11 esolution was to not get kileld for building a house with an arabic look, in redneck country
00:53 < genehacker> or why not overclock your computer in cycles to make heat?
00:53 < jonathan__> the heat needs to be decoupled from the pcr tube thats why
00:54 < jonathan__> thermo CYCLE not thermo thermo thermo
00:54 < genehacker> yeah
00:54 < jonathan__> nichrome gets hot very fast
00:55 < jonathan__> superior to power resistors
00:55 < katsmeow> power resistors ARE nichrome inside
00:55 < jonathan__> not alwasy
00:55 < katsmeow> what else?
00:55 < jonathan__> sand
00:55 < katsmeow> :-|
00:56 < jonathan__> ceramics
00:56 < katsmeow> sand/ceramic packed around the nichrome
00:56 < jonathan__> i'm sure it depends ont he resistance
00:57 < genehacker> nichrome transfers heat away faster than ceramic
00:57 < katsmeow> yeas, but it's bare metal, hence putting it into an insulating body
00:57 < jonathan__> i'll pass on putting it into my body thanks
00:58 < genehacker> perhaps we could make a microhotplate thermocycler
00:59 < genehacker> heats up a droplet and lets it cool
00:59 < genehacker> like this one droplet microfluidics device does
00:59 < jonathan__> exactly
00:59 < jonathan__> however, must control evaporation too
01:00 < genehacker> put it under oil
01:00 < jonathan__> yes that is one way
01:00 < genehacker> do they do it that way?
01:00 < jonathan__> yes
01:00 < genehacker> dang
01:00 < jonathan__> it's called emulsion or "water-in-oil"
01:01 < genehacker> do you do microfluidics work?
01:01 < jonathan__> "Nickel-based (Ni-Cr and Ni-Cr-Be) alloys used in dental restorations may be a potential cause for immune-mediated hypersensitivity.    Although nickel-based (Ni-Cr and Ni-Cr-Be) alloy prothesis is widely used in orthodontics, its potential biologic hazards, hypersensitivity in particular, are still uncertain as yet. And only a few studies in vivo have considered the biocompatibility. However, several case reports show adve
01:01 < jonathan__> effects of immunologic alterations, such as urticaria, respiratory disease, nickel contact dermatitis, microscopic hematuria and proteinuria, and even exacerbated to hepatocyte injury and renal injury."
01:01 < jonathan__> can you believe that crap.   and they say diy genetic engineering is dangerous...   how about friggin dental fillings???
01:01 < genehacker> ouch renal injury
01:02 < genehacker> so are you proposing having biogunk on nichrome?
01:02 < jonathan__> biogunk?
01:03 < genehacker> dna/protein/living thing containing liquid
01:03 < katsmeow> Ni earrings causeme problems, i can tolerate only silver long term
01:03 < jonathan__> here's another nichrome use - cryogenics:   "We present magnetization and magnetoresistance data at liquid-helium and liquid-nitrogen temperatures for wire materials commonly used for instrumentation wiring of specimens, sensors, and heaters in cryogenic probes. The magnetic susceptibilities in Systeme International units at 4.2 K were found to be: Manganin 1.25x10(-2), Nichrome 5.6x10(-3), and phosphor bronze -3.3x10(-5), 
01:03 < jonathan__> indicating that phosphor bronze is the most suitable for high-field applications."
01:04 < genehacker> what's magnetic susceptibility?
01:04 < genehacker> and how does it pertain to magnetic shields?
01:04 < jonathan__> nichrome wire is used as wire loops because it can be made sterile.
01:04 < katsmeow> anything can be made sterile
01:05 < jonathan__> uh not
01:05 < katsmeow> autoclave it
01:05 < jonathan__> lots of things warp & melt
01:05 < genehacker> you can't autoclave plastic
01:05 < jonathan__> or crack
01:05 < genehacker> or you can
01:05 < genehacker> but that would be bad
01:05 < katsmeow> set it on "gas only" then
01:06 < jonathan__> I am attempting to do microfluidics yes
01:06 < katsmeow> i've worked on combination autoclaves, one temperature controlled the gas flow for sterilzing plastics going into surgery and patients
01:07 < genehacker> droplet or channel microfluidics?
01:07 < genehacker> and in what material?
01:07 < jonathan__> however what I find is that the "research" done in the area, is largely not reproducable
01:08 < jonathan__> http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/archives/tag/microfluidics
01:09 < genehacker> now that's cool
01:09 < jonathan__> pfff why
01:09 < genehacker> well you did it using pcb board
01:10 < jonathan__> ok
01:10 < jonathan__> sure
01:11 < fenn> we are easily amused
01:11 < jonathan__> how about this one for you brain freaks.   "A slim needle-shaped multiwire microelectrode for intracerebral recording."  The construction of a needle-shaped multiwire microelectrode is described. It can be made with simple mechanical tools. The presented electrode assembly consists of 12 insulated nichrome wires (core diameter 25 microns) which are embedded in epoxylite resin.
01:12 < genehacker> though I'd really like to make some channel based microfluidics made from pyrex
01:12 < jonathan__> is that possible?  I have never read of glass being used like that
01:12 < genehacker> yup
01:12 < genehacker> it's possible
01:12 < jonathan__> probably because it is chemically very bad
01:12 < fenn> borosilicate is not necessarily pyrex
01:13 < genehacker> you etch it with DRIE
01:13 < fenn> pyrex has been tempered a certain way
01:14 < genehacker> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iop.org%2FEJ%2Farticle%2F0960-1317%2F16%2F11%2F006%2Fjmm6_11_006.pdf&ei=Vmu4SpyPNJGasgPuhvUc&usg=AFQjCNFb5Vef9aBPUUIsOSprS_qZty_xVA&sig2=hD_9eqqV7f0_hkyU0U8BPg
01:14 < genehacker> sorry big link
01:15 < jonathan__> summarize their method?
01:16 < genehacker> they etch pyrex wafers using dry reactive ion etching
01:16 < genehacker> or something like that
01:16 < jonathan__> and why cant you do it now?
01:17 < genehacker> because I need an inductively coupled plasma reactor
01:17 < genehacker> and some photoresist, and some pyrex wafers
01:17 < fenn> microwave oven
01:17 < fenn> how long does the etching step take?
01:18 < fenn> you can keep a plasma going in a microwave for a minute or so before it overheats
01:18 < genehacker> 2 hours
01:18 < jonathan__> ah, the plasma step.  hm
01:18 < genehacker> in a vacuum I think
01:19 < jonathan__> probably..
01:19 < fenn> i bet the mean free path just has to be roughly greater than the channel width
01:19 < fenn> so not "high vacuum"
01:20 < fenn> anyway sounds like overkill
01:20 < fenn> why can't you just use HF?
01:20 < genehacker> it's not as accurate
01:21 < genehacker> +- 10 microns
01:21 < fenn> um.. does it matter?
01:22 < jonathan__> sleep  ttyl
01:23 < genehacker> I want to make a microfactory for making photolabile phosphoramidite nucleosides
01:23 < genehacker> hmm...
01:24 < fenn> find out what wavelength UV you need for making the phosgene
01:25 < fenn> alternatively, find out how to do it without requiring UV
01:25 < fenn> also, borosilicate blocks most UV (i think)
01:25 < fenn> anyway i'm going to attempt to sleep as well
01:25 < genehacker> that's not necessary if you synthesize it from CO and Cl2
01:25 < genehacker> well have a nice sleep
01:26 < genehacker> I'm probably not sleeping tonight
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04:44 < branstrom> Anyone here care about SENS? You should go vote (comment) on http://3banana.com/m/0JQ/-kDPA_iEv7i
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07:23 < jonathan__> A low-cost microcontroller-based measurement system for a fractional glow technique
07:23 < jonathan__> V I Lyamayev 2006 Meas. Sci. Technol. 17 N75-N80   doi: 10.1088/0957-0233/17/12/N01 
07:23 < jonathan__> schematic included using Atmel microcontroller
07:23 < jonathan__> Abstract. A microcontroller-based research instrument for performing thermoluminescence (TL) and fractional glow technique (FGT) measurements in the range from room temperatures up to 500 °C has been developed. The key features of this system are the wide range of linear heating and cooling rates (0.005–20 °C s−1), precise temperature regulation, simplicity of construction and low cost. Details of the heater design, 
07:23 < jonathan__> hardware, firmware and software are discussed along with sample results of FGT applied for the MCP-N (LiF:Mg,Cu,P) TL detector.
07:24 < jonathan__> the schematic is reasonable and it includes all the details.  I need to re-read to see if they mentioin where to download the software..  It uses RS232 so they wrote "MSDOS program in C++" to get the data from the hardware.
07:25 < jonathan__> Just as easy to use a USB microcontroller that mimicks USB->serial and open /dev/tty1 to read the data.
07:26 < jonathan__> it would be great if DIY people did their homework....
07:26 < jonathan__> i.e. library work
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09:11 < jonathan__> genehacker: "Though you might consider moving the print media
09:11 < jonathan__> under the inkjet using some sort of linear slider mechanism. This
09:11 < jonathan__> would allow printing on things thicker than CDs."   i
09:12 < jonathan__> that is not necessary since there are many inkjet printers which print on things thicker than paper
09:12 < jonathan__> in fact it is a standard (mechanical) procedure to modify an inkjet to run bigger things through the paper trail
09:28 < jonathan__> The CD was "milled with 800 micron deep wells"  ....   how to do that?
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10:31 < kanzure> wow even the first instructable sucked
10:31 < drazak> that is the worst idea every
10:54 < jonathan__> what idea
10:55 < jonathan__> I find it hard to take SENS seriously if the leader is known to drink a lot of beer
10:56 < kanzure> are you just now learning about aubrey?
10:56 < jonathan__> no, read about him years ago
10:56 < kanzure> SENS4 was just last week (or something)
10:56 < kanzure> ah okay
10:56 < jonathan__> had a long email xchange with their lead PI
10:56 < kanzure> cumbers?
10:57 < jonathan__> I forget
10:57 < kanzure> i met him once. he wasn't drunk, but he sure was british
10:58 < jonathan__> I suggested they look at diet since okinawa-people live ridiculously long.  the response was that calorie restriction was the only way so it wasnt practical to study specific diet.  however several articles show specific flavanoids & gene actors in what these people consume.
10:59 < jonathan__> specifically there is a purple yam which has a very interesting compound.
10:59 < jonathan__> and others..
11:00 < jonathan__> So how to do this to a CDROM?   "milled with 800 micron deep wells"  
11:01 < kanzure> typical CDR grooves are 2 microns wide. so i'm guessing they probably had a really tiny wire on a milling machine.
11:02 < drazak> CD-ROM, not CDR, CDR useds a dye
11:03 < jonathan__> somehow I doubt my dremel tool will be able to do it
11:04 < jonathan__> though I am not sure why bacteria-on-CDROM requires milling the CDROM with microchannels
11:10 < kanzure> for those interested in the first instructables: http://www.instructables.com/tag/type:id/?layout=text&sort=RECENT&count=15&offset=29130
11:11 < jonathan__> why do you bother
11:11 < jonathan__> internet = low quality information
11:15 < kanzure> because i don't know any better
11:15 < kanzure> (seriously)
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12:07 < jonathan__> print media will always be higher quality because it has paid editors who sift the cruft from the good.   Editors make a lot of mistakes as the cathedral however they are better than "the bazaar"
12:08 < jonathan__> why not go back to old popular mechanics archives, or any of those other tech mags
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12:09 < jonathan__> "information theory" proves that a huge amount of information that contains some % of badness, is worse than no information at all
12:13 < genehacker2> Jonathan I want a bioprinter
12:14 < genehacker2> get rid of the rollers and have it go over a print area and build something up
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12:34 < xp_prg> genehacker2 I want to do this as wel
12:41 < genehacker2> ok cool
12:41 < genehacker2> can you reverse engineer printer electronics?
12:42 < genehacker2> because that would really help us a lot
12:42 < jonathan__> you dont get it
12:42 < jonathan__> no need to get rid of the rollers with EPSON
12:42 < genehacker2> yeah I know
12:42 < jonathan__> it has a CD tray, and the print head makes a vertical adjustment when software goes to "print to CD" mode
12:43 < genehacker2> it rolls the cd through does it not?
12:43 < jonathan__> no need to reverse engineer the electronics
12:43 < jonathan__> worst case, modify the printer driver
12:43 < jonathan__> no it does not roll the CD
12:43 < jonathan__> the CD sits in a special tray
12:43 < jonathan__> the tray moves
12:43 < genehacker2> or does it use somesort of CD 
12:43 < genehacker2> that tells me a lot
12:44 < jonathan__> look on craigs list to buy one
12:44 < genehacker2> I did
12:44 < jonathan__> I picked one up for $40
12:44 < genehacker2> I have an epson can't print on cds though
12:44 < jonathan__> near new
12:44 < genehacker2> very new
12:44 < jonathan__> you must get one that has print on CD
12:44 < genehacker2> so how does it move the tray?
12:44 < jonathan__> otherwise you will have these problems with vertical displacement of the ink head
12:45 < genehacker2> how does it move the tray?
12:45 < genehacker2> a linear actuator?
12:45 < jonathan__> i'll test it right now if you suggest how to do the "milled with 800 micron deep wells" 
12:46 < genehacker2> so does a motor move the cd in a linear manner?
12:47 < jonathan__> yes the tray moves
12:47 < genehacker2> by itself?
12:47 < jonathan__> however printing is not limited to only the CD
12:48 < genehacker2> so if the tray could be removed it could be turned into a flat bed printer?
12:48 < jonathan__> you go to "print to CD" mode, and then you send any arbitrary image..  so hypothetically you can print to the entire 8.5" wide region, not just CD area
12:48 < jonathan__> yes, that is what I'm saying
12:48 < genehacker2> wow
12:48 < jonathan__> the vertical displacement activated by "print to CD" is the big bonus
12:49 < jonathan__> otherwise you have to design all that yourself blah blah
12:49 < jonathan__> or modify rollers blah blah
12:49 < genehacker2> it levels to the surface?
12:49 < jonathan__> it moves up to allow bigger object to pass thru
12:50 < jonathan__> some guys have been able to pass 1/32" PCB thru.   but 1/16" PCB is too thick
12:50 < genehacker2> so what we want to do is something like this:
12:50 < genehacker2> http://www.indoor.flyer.co.uk/3dprint.htm
12:51 < jonathan__> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/c84-st.htm
12:51 < genehacker2> except instead of powder we're printing in hydrogel curing stuff or whatever bioprinters print into
12:52 < genehacker2> is that the same type of printer
12:52 < jonathan__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkHpjzOhzxA  go to about 2:00
12:54 < genehacker2> looks like it rolled it out to me
12:54 < genehacker2> it's not moving a tray
12:54 < genehacker2> it's moving a board
12:54 < jonathan__> those dont use a CD printer so they are more modified
12:55 < jonathan__> this one uses CD printer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9W6mWtA8YM
12:56 < jonathan__> the tray goes crazy at the start, as the printer is aligning the tray into position.  then the tray moves for each print line
12:56 < genehacker2> ok
12:56 < genehacker2> it's aligning it, that's something we can use
12:56 < jonathan__> however the printable area is actually the entire width of the printer
12:57 < genehacker2> so it might not be incredible hard to make it such that the printer moves over the thing being printed on
12:57 < jonathan__> instructions: http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/tutorial.html
13:00 < genehacker2> the thing is
13:00 < genehacker2> I'd like to build something up layer by layer
13:00 < genehacker2> many layers higher than the cd tray
13:03 < jonathan__> a couple papers I read, they studied the droplet distribution of EPSON 
13:03 < jonathan__> it is near vertical
13:03 < jonathan__> so displacement from the page does not matter.
13:03 < jonathan__> page = print surface
13:03 < genehacker2> yeah
13:03 < jonathan__> it only matters since the head shouldn't run into it
13:04 < genehacker2> so how do we turn a printer like that into a 3d printer?
13:04 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r 0cdd724 /doc/architecture: some notes on the current and future architecture of skdb
13:05 < jonathan__> we? or you
13:06 < genehacker2> I guess me
13:07 < kanzure> umbrellas should have directional indicators and provide tactile feedback when you change the orientation of the umbrella and the umbrella isn't at the optimal angle for water protection
13:08 < jonathan__> well you want to move the printer linearly.  I think thats crazy
13:08 < genehacker2> it can be done
13:08 < kanzure> what the fuck
13:08 < kanzure> http://harkopen.com/news/makerbeam-announces-kickstarter-invite-contest-open-source-projects
13:08 < kanzure> makerbeam has raised $5,000 already?
13:08 < kanzure> they have nothing though..
13:09 < genehacker2> http://homemade3dprinter.blogspot.com/
13:09 < genehacker2> kanzure what about wind? you'd have to make the umbrella compensate for wind
13:10 < kanzure> so what? this isn't rocket science
13:10 < kanzure> get a microcontroller and some wind detection system going
13:10 < jonathan__> you should see the full-body umbrellas they sell in hong kong.  funny
13:11 < kanzure> maybe that's what i will use
13:11 < genehacker2> wonder how the original bioprinter worked
13:11 < kanzure> one idea is to use lots of frills on the side of the umbrella and shine a laser on them
13:11 < kanzure> and then get the deflection angle
13:11 < kanzure> to determine in which way they are blowing
13:11 < kanzure> (assume a stationary person)
13:12 < jonathan__> simplify, simplify, simplify.   just get a jumbo lawn garbage bag, cut a hole in the top, poke your head thru the hole, and put it over your body.  done
13:12 < jonathan__> piezo works better as bend sensor
13:12 < jonathan__> kids always want to use lazerz for some reason
13:12 < kanzure> how did these people get $5k from 38 people?
13:13 < jonathan__> I KNOW1!@! WE USE LAzERZ!
13:13 < kanzure> diodes aren't that impressive, jonathan__ 
13:13 < kanzure> besides my problem was specifically to determine the angle of the rain
13:13 < kanzure> and then compensate an umbrella
13:14 < kanzure> it's a way to test dynamic control
13:14 < kanzure> if the goal is to not get wet, don't be there
13:15 < genehacker2> maybe you could add dynamically controlled fins to it so it keeps pointed into the wind
13:15 < jonathan__> so how do I mill a CDROM with micron resolution eh?
13:15 < jonathan__> that's the only problem of the day
13:15 < genehacker2> lasers probably
13:15 < jonathan__> I KNOW1!@! WE USE LAzERZ!
13:16 < genehacker2> no really
13:16 < genehacker2> how much are you removing anyway?
13:16 < genehacker2> if you're removing a lot then a laser is not recommendalb
13:16 < genehacker2> e
13:16 < jonathan__> "milled with 800 micron deep wells"   with wells apparently 2" wide
13:17 < genehacker2> talk to a machinist
13:17 < genehacker2> OH I know hot embossing
13:17 < genehacker2> no
13:18 < jonathan__> HI MACHINIST!@!1  YOU GOT LAzERZ!??
13:18 < xp_prg> genehacker2 I have access to lasers at the tech shop
13:19 < jonathan__> does the reflective surface of the CD affect that at all?
13:19 < genehacker2> jonathan sutton building bottom floor has what you need
13:19 < genehacker2> probably not accurate to 800 microns
13:20 < genehacker2> make sure to test that the cd doesn't have any chlorine in it
13:20 < jonathan__> well.  I want to do it in my garage lab.
13:20 < genehacker2> oh
13:21 < genehacker2> try drilling a hole
13:21 < jonathan__> can it be etched?
13:21 < genehacker2> no
13:22 < genehacker2> you might try hot embossing it
13:22 < genehacker2> don't know if you could hot emboss something 800 microns deep
13:22 < jonathan__> alternatively, I could add a positive layer that is 800 microns high
13:24 < jonathan__> as long as the layer binds to the surface and is biocompatible
13:27 < genehacker2> well what do you want to do with that?
13:28 < genehacker2> are you trying to reproduce the results or make a smiley face out of cells?
13:29 < jonathan__> certainly smiley face is a good hello world.   however the larger problem is synthetic circuit characterization
13:30 < genehacker2> oh
13:30 < genehacker2> that makes sense
13:30 < genehacker2> does it have to be 800 microns deep?
13:30 < jonathan__> characterization of parts / circuits is the bottleneck in the process of making bigger circuits
13:30 < drazak> no
13:30 < drazak> you got hung up on that depth
13:31 < genehacker2> I'd really like to make a bioprinter
13:31 < jonathan__> i dont know why he chose 800um, or even why he needs wells at all
13:31 < xp_prg> genehacker2 http://singularityhub.com/2009/06/08/growing-organs-in-the-lab/
13:31 < genehacker2> we could print bacon
13:31 < genehacker2> it's thin
13:31 < xp_prg> the bottom video shows an actual inkjet printer doing this
13:31 < genehacker2> yeah cool
13:31 < genehacker2> could you find how they made it like that?
13:32 < xp_prg> don't know
13:33 < genehacker2> I never could find the paper on how they made it make stuff
13:34 < jonathan__> yuck, that video is disgusting
13:34 < kanzure> nltk is pretty neat
14:02 < jonathan__> genehacker2: this is the paper you want to look at, Inkjet printing for high-throughput cell patterning  doi:10.1016/j.biomaterials.2003.10.052    
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14:17 < kanzure> maybe i'll just use spud
14:17  * kanzure goes to a meeting
14:42 < superkuh> Did anyone grab the full text of the inkjet cell printing paper? I would appreciate a copy if possible. (superkuh@gmail.com)
14:49 < drazak> of course not
15:05 < jonathan__> yes
15:07 < jonathan__> you know what boggles my mind.  found 2 papers for bioinstrumentation using microcontrollers... and one uses an 80C31 and the other uses 8051.   that's 1979 chip technology folks.  yes that old.
15:07 < xp_prg> superkuh where do you live?
15:07 < jonathan__> I have no idea why on earth anyone would use an 8051 in the entire past decade
15:07 < xp_prg> anyone near Palo Alto?
15:08 < superkuh> I am not. Western Wisconsin, USA.
15:10 < xp_prg> can you move out here so we can work togehter?
15:12 < fenn> say.. what's going on here?
15:12 < fenn> you can't steal superkuh!
15:14 < xp_prg> I can and will
15:20 < jonathan__> btw this good paper explains HP and Cannon inkjet printing for patterns .    Characterization of Patterned Self-Assembled Monolayers 
15:20 < jonathan__> and Protein Arrays Generated by the Ink-Jet Method
15:23 < jonathan__> humorously it says "Patterns were designed using Microsoft PowerPoint software"
15:33 < xp_prg> what is a good diybio cell to use to test printing cells with an inkjet printer?
15:34 < xp_prg> and how can you make them stick together?
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15:39 < jonathan__> many types of microbes, chemicals, proteins have been "printed"
15:40 < jonathan__> what "stick together" ?
15:41 < xp_prg> fecal matter?
15:51 < jonathan__> the only consideration is the size of the microbe and the size of the nozzle.  if nozzle x 10 >= microbe size then def. should be ok
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15:55 < drazak> so uhm
15:55 < drazak> do you guys actually realize how hard cell culture is?
15:56 < genehacker> cell culture of what?
15:56 < genehacker> human cells?
15:56 < drazak> whatever cells they're going to use
15:56 < drazak> bacteria is easy, mammal cells are hard
15:56 < genehacker> from the way you ask sounds hards
15:57 < genehacker> aren't mammalian cells pressure sensitive?
15:57 < drazak> eh
15:57 < drazak> not that bad
15:57 < genehacker> really?
15:57 < drazak> we centrifuge the hell out of them
15:57 < drazak> 5000x g for 5 minutes
15:57 < drazak> 3500x g for more sensitive cells
15:58 < kanzure> fenn: you should open up a door
15:58 < genehacker> well I don't think we can do anything other than bacteria at the moment
15:59 < kanzure> really? mold grows pretty well on my bread
15:59 < genehacker> unless you got an easy way to culture mammalian cells
15:59 < kanzure> did anyone upload the paper to adl?
15:59 < genehacker> though some group of bioartists were able to extract bovine cells from meat and get them to grow
16:00 < drazak> getting them to grow is easy
16:00 < drazak> keeping them uncontaminated is hard
16:00 < drazak> immortalizing them is hard
16:01 < genehacker> they did it in a homemade positive pressure chamber
16:03 < genehacker> so I'm wondering, can you ever deimmortalize mammalian cells?
16:04 < jonathan__> I am not considering mammalian cells at all.
16:05 < jonathan__> that is a huge level of complexity (and safety) that is not worth it.
16:05 < genehacker> I'd like to be able to someday
16:05 < genehacker> but not today
16:06 < drazak> jonathan__: safety isn't too much of an issue
16:06 < jonathan__> even the experts find it hard to keep those cells alive..  
16:07 < drazak> genehacker: why would you deimmortalize cells?
16:07 < genehacker> so you can implant them in people and they have less of a chance of becoming cancerous
16:08 < jonathan__> although there have been some interesting projects on measuring impedance for differentiating organ cell types that are interesting.
16:10 < drazak> genehacker: oh, well, cellless systems are being developed
16:11 < genehacker> how does that work?
16:11 < drazak> growth factors
16:11 < genehacker> anyway I think diybio really needs to focus on making useful chemicals 
16:11 < drazak> VEGF is as good as MSC injections
16:12 < genehacker> MSC=
16:14 < drazak> mesenchymal stem cells
16:15 < genehacker> we really need a way to make our own taq polymerase and restriction enzymes
16:15 < drazak> did you read the latest post
16:15 < drazak> seems like a good idea
16:15 < jonathan__> taq was already discussed, many times
16:15 < genehacker> which one?
16:16 < genehacker> oh on restriction enzymes?
16:16 < genehacker> yeah
16:19 < drazak> all we need are the bugs
16:30 < drazak> unless people want to keep pussyfooting
16:33 < fenn> diy fembot: http://www.youtube.com/v/78krbfy9hh0
16:36 < fenn> the greatest motivation came after watching “Chobits.”
16:37 < genehacker> so we just need the bugs?
16:38 < drazak> pretty much
16:38 < genehacker> so what bugs do we need?
16:38 < genehacker> modified e.coli variants?
16:42 < drazak> an ec construct]
16:51 < jonathan__> "who" needs the bugs.
16:52 < jonathan__> if someone wants to act as a maintainer and purifier, great
16:53 < jonathan__> otherwise, everyone needs them to do their own purifications
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17:14 < drazak> yup
17:14 < drazak> but if one persone gets them and grows them
17:15 < drazak> then they can send some to other people
17:15 < drazak> or send the plasmid
17:18 < drazak> probably the plasmid
17:18 < drazak> you can dry it into water
17:21 < drazak> er, paper
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17:26 < jonathan__> yes, definitely go for it
17:28 < jonathan__> best would be to find someone with access to a simple academic lab like a high school, and keep everything there.  pretty simple for a motivated person
17:28 < jonathan__> could be done at home, but better to do it outside
17:30 < drazak> uhmmm
17:30 < drazak> highschool labs are lulz
17:30 < drazak> as in
17:30 < jonathan__> uh oh, new yorker article..
17:30 < drazak> they suck
17:30 < jonathan__> exactly, they suck
17:30 < jonathan__> that is the point
17:30 < drazak> they have no shakers
17:30 < jonathan__> they suck so no one will bother the maintainer about what they are / arent doing
17:32 < jonathan__> security from beauracracy thru obscurity 
17:32  * drazak eyerolls
17:33 < genehacker> plasmid paper?
17:33 < genehacker> could you send it through the mail?
17:34 < jonathan__> it's far better to have someone just quietly sending the stuff out from some unsophisticated lab, than to have some "mad sci on youtube" sending the stuff out from the kitchen
17:35 < genehacker> good point
17:35 < jonathan__> from patent standpoint as well as I assume it's a grey area to distribute Big Biotech's product around
17:37 < genehacker> we didn't violate your patent, that bacteria did
17:38 < jonathan__> tell it to the lawyers
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17:40 < genehacker> I thought gene patents were going moot
17:40 < jonathan__> kind of like mp3 and DMCA ?
17:41 < drazak> genehacker: yup
17:41 < drazak> genehacker: just let some water with plasmids in it dry on some paper, and boom, plasmid water
17:42 < drazak> it's how academics save money on biohazard shipping
17:42 < drazak> er
17:42 < drazak> plasmid paper
17:43 < drazak> send it through the mail, whatever
17:43 < genehacker> don't you have to contain it in a plastic baggie?
17:45 < drazak> nah, wrap in saran wrap
17:45 < genehacker> just regular paper?
17:47 < katsmeow-afk> it's like going to a hard rock music event, and seeing people periodically sucking on their collar or a napkin: it's been soaked in their favorite drug-water mix and dried prior to the event
17:48 < katsmeow-afk> it's like the stat that 90% of usa dollars are taineted with drugs, so why not *really* soak them, and sell $1 bills for $100, or whatever the price is
17:49 < katsmeow-afk> i'm not recommending that however, because it's prolly illegal
17:49 < superkuh> Because no one wants to suck on dirty paper currency?
17:49 < genehacker> hmmm... plasmid money
17:49 < katsmeow-afk> i dunno, they stick themselves with dirty needles <shrug>
17:50 < fenn> you could wash them first..
17:50 < katsmeow-afk> lol
17:50 < fenn> genehacker: that rodney brooks video was terrible
17:50 < katsmeow-afk> "i washed my heroin money, and now ic annot get a buzz off it, i want my money back!"
17:50 < genehacker> you finally got around to watching it?
17:50 < genehacker> how so?
17:51 < fenn> it was way too vague
17:51 < fenn> 'find an exponential and hop on it!'
17:51 < genehacker> ok
17:51 < katsmeow-afk> "hey Bubba, why do the fish act like they are hallucinating?"
17:51 < fenn> 'start a company that uses robots!'
18:08 < kanzure> nathan cravens got all excited today about visual object recognition algorithms. 'omg i just created ai bryan!!!'
18:08 < jonathan__> AND LAzERS!@
18:08 < kanzure> the new yorker article wasn't all too interesting
18:08 < kanzure> no, no lasers! bad engineer
18:09 < jonathan__> OH!1!!@!
18:09 < kanzure> jonathan__: btw there were a lot of other sites on the web that did spectrophotometers from a CD
18:09 < kanzure> you want to give me a ride home?
18:09 < kanzure> i'm currently across the street
18:09 < jonathan__> yeah but this is a good paper actually
18:09 < kanzure> not saying it's bad
18:09 < jonathan__> none of this "generic web blah instructable" stuff
18:09 < kanzure> haven't read it.
18:09 < kanzure> heh
18:09 < jonathan__> it has... equations!  in it
18:10 < kanzure> isn't that illegal?
18:10 < jonathan__> yes...   ah I had to check.  See this is a Biochemistry paper, not a Biology paper
18:11 < jonathan__> that explains it...  again
18:11 < jonathan__> I spidered that journal, havent gone thru all the papers yet tho
18:13 < drazak> what journal?
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18:14 < jonathan__> "BIOCHEMISTRY AND MOLECULAR BIOLOGY EDUCATION "    just for fun
18:14 < kanzure> nevermind, bus came
18:14 < kanzure> why doesn't capmetro have wifi?
18:14 < kanzure> jonathan__: you should consider uploading it to adl.
18:15 < kanzure> we've been using it as a paper dump for a while now
18:15 < jonathan__> what
18:15 < jonathan__> oh, this one is open access, sooo
18:15 < kanzure> great
18:15 < kanzure> bah connectivity
18:15 < jonathan__> or u mean the entire journal?
18:15 < kanzure> yes please
18:15 < jonathan__> oh
18:15 < jonathan__> well get me an account first
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18:33 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: going to keep the transmission, by keeping the transmission, we can get the vehicle up to 45mph and possibly more.. the vehicles: ~1999 ford ranger, ~1999 jeep wrangler, and a 2001 daewoo lenos 
18:35 < ybit> ranger: ~4,300lbs., wrangler: ~3040lbs, lenos: ~2440lbs (with gas engines and nothing stripped)
18:36 < ybit> the wrangler and lenos are mine to keep, the ranger is the owner's for training me :)
18:36 < drazak> to drive?
18:36 < ybit> um, yeah :P
18:38 < ybit> we have about 5 wranglers and 5 rangers, and one daewoo lenos which had a bad engine and a few minor problems
18:39 < drazak> great, cars for the lab in austin
18:39  * drazak runs
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18:59 < fenn> definitely the lanos
19:00 < fenn> i bet you can strip it down quite a bit before adding batteries
19:01 < fenn> it might be worth investigating small 4 stroke engines (diesel?) to act as a generator, if you can't afford a crapload of batteries
19:01 < fenn> you only need like 30 hp continuous to go highway speeds
19:03 < katsmeow-afk> ybit is in terribly hilly country tho
19:04 < katsmeow-afk> there's hills up there that will kill a battery pack and never reach the top
19:04 < ybit> an ev lanos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2rm2xFeufE
19:06 < ybit> minus the trip to work, i only have to deal with very small hills on occasion.. trip to work, er.. big hills :P
19:06 < katsmeow-afk> out of a group 27 battery, you can figure max one hp hr
19:06 < katsmeow-afk> in my experience, and that's really hard on the battyer
19:10 < katsmeow-afk> ybit, junkyard tend to accumulate lots of riding and push mowers, praps a riding mower engine would make a decent generator-driver
19:10 < fenn> turbo lawnmower engine
19:11 < fenn> small engines are so much easier to work on
19:11 < katsmeow-afk> i was thinking the 2 cylinder sorts, which are on commercial units, not so sure about single piston efficency
19:12 < drazak> just hook it up to an alternator and boom!
19:14 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, thing is, a single piston is one BANG of a torque impulse for 1/4 of one revolution, every 2 revolutions
19:19 < ybit> better vid of the ev lanos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-75qkJij6g
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19:34 < fenn> sure i guess
19:34 < jonathan__> they are hot
19:34 < fenn> don't use your tongue, use a sponge instead
19:34 < jonathan__> not for internal use
19:34 < jonathan__> may cause chaffing
19:34 < jonathan__> never buy radio shack soldering tools
19:34 < jonathan__> or accessories
19:36 < ybit> drazak: what are you wanting to know?
19:37 < ybit> i use cheap soldering irons at work, they do the job, 15 watt soldering irons are fine for just about most things
19:38 < ybit> 15 or 30*
19:38 < drazak> yeah, I know, I want something better :P
19:38 < jonathan__> using a good one is like driving a luxury car, it's hard to go back to the old clunker
19:38 < kanzure> are the cold touch things worth their salt?
19:38 < jonathan__> get a digital weller otherwise get analog weller
19:39 < jonathan__> cold touch?
19:39 < drazak> http://www.amazon.com/Weller-WLC100-Soldering-Hobbyist-Yourselfer/dp/B000AS28UC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1253664883&sr=8-1
19:39 < drazak> pretty much what I was going to get
19:39 < drazak> kanzure: no
19:39 < drazak> kanzure: they suck
19:40 < jonathan__> amazon is best price I think, I recently got a weller thru them after checking everywhere
19:40 < drazak> yeah
19:40 < jonathan__> I wouldnt go for WLC
19:40 < jonathan__> go for PES51
19:40 < ybit> maybe, but my expensive workstation is just that expensive, it has a few bells/whistles but nothing to spend the big money on. the one thing i like better than the ones i use at work: the smoke absorber 
19:40 < drazak> I did a perusal though google shopping
19:40 < drazak> smoke absorber?
19:41 < ybit> drazak: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HDG0AO/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000I30QBW&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=135A4RZD689K44TD70K5
19:41 < drazak> can you get other tips for the PES51?
19:41 < jonathan__> you want the blue weller units not the red one
19:41 < jonathan__> yes, many tips
19:41 < ybit> when you are soldering you have fumes to deal with, unfortunately until my tips come in, i'll be sniffing fumes @ work
19:41 < jonathan__> removable
19:41 < drazak> nah, I don't need hot air rework
19:41 < jonathan__> also the tool detaches & is replaceable
19:42 < ybit> you'll need plenty of tips, that was my mistake and a solder sucker
19:42 < drazak> jonathan__: it does on the WLC too
19:42 < drazak> ybit: yeah I know
19:42 < drazak> ybit: I'm a half decent solderer already, just have crappy irons
19:42 < ybit> solder wick is nice too when working with smd components
19:42 < jonathan__> uh
19:42 < drazak> yeah
19:42 < drazak> no smd stuff for me though
19:42 < drazak> it's good for everything :P
19:43 < jonathan__> the red one is only $10 cheaper, so go pro
19:43 < drazak> yeah
19:43 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-105-60.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:43 < jonathan__> for automotive stuff, get the cheapie $19.99 ones or whatever... for bench work, go for the blue
19:43 < ybit> that's not bad advice
19:44 < drazak> definitely
19:44 < drazak> jonathan__: I'm building some high class amps, so I wanted a better soldering iron
19:44 < jonathan__> well for automotive usually need a soldering gun, not iron..  much higher watts for bigger stuff
19:44 < drazak> jonathan__: aka a tube amp and a headphone amp
19:44 < drazak> yeah
19:45 < jonathan__> hm
19:45 < drazak> it's more than 10 bucks more
19:45 < drazak> need to buy the WES51 station kit thing
19:45 < drazak> not just the PES51
19:45 < drazak> the PES51 is just the power supply
19:45 < jonathan__> yeah right
19:46 < jonathan__> well, up to you
19:46 < drazak> yeah
19:46  * katsmeow-afk sells drazak all her vac tubes, without him even knowing it
19:46 < jonathan__> if you're doing any ICs at all, you want the blue
19:46 < drazak> I'm gonna see if my dad will go half in on it
19:46 < jonathan__> better temp control will help
19:46 < drazak> yeah, but I"m putting in dips for the OPAMPS
19:46 < jonathan__> might help with tube sockets as well
19:47 < jonathan__> dips = ICs
19:47 < drazak> no no
19:47 < drazak> what I mean is the holder things
19:47  * drazak can never remember what they're called
19:47 < jonathan__> sockets
19:48 < drazak> aye
19:48 < drazak> dip sockets for the opamps
19:48 < drazak> I need to part out the amp(s) at some point
19:48 < jonathan__> thats more than "for the hobbyist" already.    hobbyist is like, solder resistor to led.
19:49 < jonathan__> tube amp is kind of pointless if it's playing mp3s.   vinyl, ok..
19:49 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-105-60.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:50 < kanzure> anyone have experience with "sml" or "polyml" ?
19:50 < drazak> jonathan__: we don't play mp3's on the sterio at our house :)
19:50 < jonathan__> you could get by with $12.99 version.  I did for a long time.   should have upgraded tho, life would have been much happier
19:50 < drazak> jonathan__: and 1/2 my music is 96bit flac from vinyl
19:50 < kanzure> do they still play mp3s over there in mbb from the server?
19:51 < jonathan__> they have 2 stereos going at once sometimes.. one in each lab
19:51 < kanzure> different songs?
19:51 < jonathan__> i think people have playlists or something, it's different
19:51 < kanzure> huh
19:51 < jonathan__> lots of times they play NPR which is lame...   damn propaganda
19:51 < kanzure> well i guess you don't have much else to do while pipetting for hours after hour
19:51 < drazak> I usually bring my mp3 player to the lab :P
19:51 < kanzure> drazak: if you get a song you hate you have to deglove
19:52 < jonathan__> lab techs dont think much, its true
19:52 < jonathan__> manual labor..
19:52 < kanzure> but it's SCIENCE
19:52 < drazak> kanzure: I have no songs I hate
19:52 < kanzure> ha ha ha
19:52 < drazak> on my mp3 player that is
19:52 < jonathan__> the people in the middle, sometimes wear ear plugs
19:52 < drazak> 3/4's of them are in flac...
19:52 < kanzure> jonathan__: is michael wittig still around?
19:53 < jonathan__> sometimes it gets on a depressing playlist and I gotta wonder who's in there working...  all this down beat music, ha
19:53 < kanzure> "oh man my life is so depressing. time to pipette"
19:53 < jonathan__> ummmm  I dunno, I dont talk to everyone there
19:53 < kanzure> "perfect pipetting music"
19:53 < kanzure> ah, well, he's in the middle, or was
19:53 < drazak> :P
19:54 < drazak> my lab is boring
19:54 < jonathan__> oh, people come and go from the desk area all the time, it's crazy
19:54 < jonathan__> the next lab space over, what is it, computational or soemthing, nothing but borrring cubicles, ha
19:54 < drazak> one person just stares while he pippets, the other listens to music in greek, and the lab bitch listens to vietnamese music
19:54 < drazak> or taiwanese or something
19:54 < jonathan__> 0th generation has poor taste in music, it is true
19:55 < ybit> 19:52 < drazak> 3/4's of them are in flac...
19:55 < drazak> ybit: I have a rio karma, it plays music in flac on my "mp3 player"
19:55 < ybit> doesn't matter unless you have the nice earphones 
19:55 < genehacker2> your lack or robots disturbs me
19:55 < drazak> ybit: my senn 515's are decent
19:55 < jonathan__> flac doesnt matter much since most recordings have so much compression during mixing
19:56 < drazak> jonathan__: from vinyl
19:56 < drazak> jonathan__: all my flac= from vinyl
19:56 < jonathan__> depends who mixed it, whether vinyl or not
19:56 < drazak> and most of it is before they started doing that lame shit
19:56 < drazak> The Who vinyl
19:56 < jonathan__> thats why music from 60s sounds so much better
19:56 < drazak> Floyd Vinyl
19:56 < drazak> Steely Dan Vinyl
19:56 < drazak> etcv
19:56 < jonathan__> ha, what are you doing dropping acid at your lab bench or what
19:57 < drazak> nah
19:57 < jonathan__> "yeah wow it's like wood stock 2010 man, look at these cells gloooowwwwww"
19:57 < drazak> :P
19:58 < jonathan__> "no man it's like, they just want to be loved, thats what florescence is all about man, looovveeee"
19:58 < jonathan__> ha
19:59 < jonathan__> it's true you know.   i read that in steven hawking's book.
19:59 < drazak> hah
19:59 < drazak> I need to get the receipt for my headphoens and send them in
19:59 < drazak> they have a crack in the plastic
19:59 < drazak> and I have a year left on my warranty
20:05 < ybit> http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/3662000373/in/pool-822445@N25 http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/3661999697/in/pool-822445@N25
20:06 < ybit> http://www.flickr.com/photos/electric-future/3503925622/in/pool-822445@N25
20:06 < ybit> all EVs, after seeing this, i almost just want to build my own car
20:06 < ybit> plenty of scrap metal to do this
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20:08 < kanzure> libcml-smlnj seems to not contain ascii files
20:08 < genehacker> I wonder
20:08 < genehacker> could we make a living cellular automata
20:08 < kanzure> /usr/lib/smlnj/lib/cml/.cm/x86-unix/cml.cm is totally NOT ascii
20:08 < genehacker> that glows patterns
20:08 < ybit> http://www.centralfloridaf-bodies.com/Toys for Tots-Belleview 2005.htm http://www.centralfloridaf-bodies.com/Toys for Tots-Belleview 2005.htm
20:08 < ybit> home-built
20:09 < katsmeow-afk> you wanna build from scratch? didja look into the mountains or paperwork the state will bury you under?
20:10  * katsmeow-afk dcc's her Geo Metro to ybit, after she yanks it's engine
20:10 < drazak> oh man I totally forgot how much these headphones suck
20:10 < drazak> they just take all the mids out of it
20:10 < drazak> and muddy the highs and lows
20:10  * drazak pukes
20:10 < katsmeow-afk> put a motor on each front half-shaft, fillit's backend with batteries, and you're all set
20:11 < genehacker> wow you are a music freak drazak
20:11 < katsmeow-afk> guy down the street wants $900 for a 65 Mustang, original running gear, sounds great
20:12 < drazak> genehacker: dude, I grew up with the master general of music freaks, my dad
20:12 < drazak> genehacker: I grew up listening to a golden tube tube amp, and have a fischer x100 in my room 
20:12 < genehacker> my dad is a music freak
20:12 < genehacker> he purchased special speakers
20:12 < ybit> haven't seen this before: http://www.milnermotors.com/aircar.htm
20:13 < drazak> my dad spent 20 grand on speakers at once
20:13 < genehacker> you win
20:13 < drazak> you don't got nothin' on my dad
20:13 < genehacker> I don't
20:13 < drazak> nor doesyour dad
20:13 < drazak> anyway what kind of special speakers were they
20:14 < genehacker> flat panel speakers
20:14 < genehacker> they were flat so they radiate sound better or something
20:14 < jonathan__> imagine if he bought google stock instead.  wowwwww
20:14 < drazak> oh those are usually crap unless really expensiv e
20:14 < ybit> this home-built looks like the bat mobile: http://forums.yourgarage.nbc.com/index.php?showtopic=69
20:15 < genehacker> http://www.airshiptg.org/airshipdrivebywire.htm
20:15 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-105-60.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:15 < katsmeow-afk> i had a pair of Ultralinear brand speakers, sounded good at 20 watts peak
20:16 < katsmeow-afk> had a flat disk in the middle of the alleged 10 inch woofer
20:16 < drazak> those were ok
20:17 < genehacker> these were a flat plate
20:17 < genehacker> the whole plate was a coil
20:18 < katsmeow-afk> i found a speaker that resembles those woofers, about 5 yrs ago, after a decade of looking at specs, bought some, the Dog Era began, and they are still sitting upstairs in the unopened boxes
20:18 < katsmeow-afk> you speak of a ribbon speaker?
20:18 < genehacker> I don't know
20:19 < genehacker> they're a flat plate type sound radiation device
20:19 < genehacker> 1 is as tall as a man
20:19 < katsmeow-afk> square radiator, the "coil" is on edge flat wire, set into a slotted labyrinth of magnet structure
20:21 < katsmeow-afk> i didn't look at them closely, but i off-paw couldn't see how they got rid of back pressure with large plates
20:21 < drazak> hehe
20:22 < katsmeow-afk> there was another kind of ribbon for tweeters, they were angled and exposed, with magnetic structure on onely the backside, the ribbon was in V shape, and made sound whenthe V squeesed closed
20:32 < katsmeow-afk> ybit, hope this misses us : http://www.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?ID=BMX&region=c4&lat=33.51913834&lon=-86.80933380&label=Birmingham%2c%20AL
20:39 < kanzure> fenn: a lens could shift the light
20:39 < kanzure> a polarized film of some sort
20:39 < kanzure> it's probably easier to just use a piece of fiber optic though
20:58 < fenn> what are you talking about
20:59 < kanzure> your reply to jonathan__ 
20:59 < fenn> LED's are monochromatic
20:59 < fenn> even white led's are not really white
20:59 < kanzure> can't you shift the wavelength by passing it through a filter?
20:59 < fenn> not unless it's made of unobtanium
20:59 < fenn> (if that answer wasn't clear, it's a "no")
21:00 < jonathan__> eh
21:00 < kanzure> bolonkin says it's possible though
21:00 < jonathan__> white led's are pretty flat
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21:01 < fenn> jonathan__: i might look the other way if they were using a white LED and diffraction grating, but they just used an orange LED
21:01 < kanzure> clearly i do not know my optics
21:02 < jonathan__> i dont know what you are referring to
21:02 < fenn> also white led's have probably improved a bit since i've last read about them
21:02 < fenn> in http://www.rsc.org/Education/EiC/issues/2007Sept/BuildYourOwnSpectrophotometer.asp
21:03 < jonathan__> oh
21:03 < jonathan__> well, that's just a toy
21:04 < jonathan__> it's for freshmen or something, just to get hands wet
21:04 < fenn> as opposed to what?
21:04 < jonathan__> LDRs are wavelength sensitive too - not flat
21:04 < fenn> sure, i agree
21:05 < jonathan__> i have to re-read it to see what parts they are using it's been a while
21:07 < jonathan__> i'm just tired of the continual re-hash of same old "hey what if we use an LED?" stuff so I posted a summary
21:07 < fenn> but what's with these "spectrophotometers" that don't even use a diffraction grating? (like the citizenscience urinomics thingy)
21:07 < jonathan__> trying to get beyond "hey lets make a gel box" stuff
21:07 < jonathan__> oh, that is possible
21:07 < jonathan__> using many different led's each with calibrated curves has been proven
21:07 < fenn> but that's just about as effective as looking at it
21:07 < jonathan__> i dunno about that project specifically, i was not impressed
21:07 < jonathan__> "looking" at it?
21:07 < fenn> yes
21:07 < jonathan__> no some led's are quite narrow or wide
21:07 < fenn> your eyes have 3 or 4 different wavelength sensitive detectors
21:07 < jonathan__> a curve can be fit from, I dunno, 6+ led's
21:07 < fenn> so 3 or 4 LED's is not so much different from looking at it
21:08 < jonathan__> i dunno, can you write out 8 bits of RGB from the font you are reading now? 
21:08 < jonathan__> quantitative not qualitative
21:08 < fenn> if i had a pantone chart
21:08 < jonathan__> sure and good lighting and practice and and and
21:08 < jonathan__> I can use a quarter instead of a flathead screwdriver but guess what I reach for
21:08 < fenn> yes.. good lighting
21:09 < jonathan__> read up on diamond's papers, he has shown the led method in several projects using led as sensor and emitter
21:09 < fenn> i'm just seriously underwhelmed by the quality of most DIY lab equipment papers
21:09 < jonathan__> diamond(sp)
21:10 < jonathan__> these papers are for intro undergrad labs, thats why
21:10 < fenn> that's no excuse
21:10 < jonathan__> most DIY lab equip is lame to begin with
21:10 < jonathan__> DIY woodworker vs. ikea... who wins, even tho ikea is crap too?
21:10 < kanzure> i think we can all agree that we want to be not lame.
21:10 < jonathan__> DIY auto guy vs. auto shop.. who wins?  yeah
21:11 < jonathan__> then be professional not diy
21:11 < kanzure> professionsl don't do anything?
21:11 < kanzure> sorry, what?
21:11 < jonathan__> ha, what
21:11 < fenn> if you're going to publish a paper on it, at least make it not suck
21:11 < fenn> what happened to peer review?
21:11 < jonathan__> uh..  bio papers suck, by defn
21:12 < fenn> maybe there should be a anti-peer review.. submit your paper to people outside of your discipline
21:12 < jonathan__> i have been wasting all this time reading "lab on chip" for what?  I find out it sucks, when compared to any of the chem eng similar journals, or IEEE...   now I dont read it anymore, it's like a joke
21:12 < kanzure> send it to your own worst enemy? "dear sir, enclosed is my latest manuscript. dearly, your long hated nemesis, dr. monroe"
21:12 < jonathan__> PLOS is that way - papers are individually voted, no more journal metric nonsense
21:13 < jonathan__> this spec with opamp project is an educational paper..  for AP high school or entry undergrad, that is all, dont get so concerned
21:13 < fenn> i mean biologists aren't really qualified to review hardware designs
21:14 < kanzure> much less calibration charts
21:14 < fenn> huh?
21:14 < jonathan__> do you really want tim heath going on about growing hearts by printing mammalian cells or would he be better served by trying a simple spec...
21:14 < kanzure> "eh it looks about right" said the biologist to the gel one day
21:14 < kanzure> jonathan__: i think xp_prg should fuck off and go to hell
21:14 < fenn> tim heath won't ever get excited about a spectrophotometer anyway
21:15 < jonathan__> well, whatever, the entry diybio people
21:15 < fenn> probably he doesn't even see the need for it
21:15 < jonathan__> or hell, the journalists
21:15 < jonathan__> anyway i'm slowly fleshing out the faq so we can all start posting "go read the faq" when yet another "hey let's make our own gel box" thing comes up or etc...
21:16 < kanzure> they would all be served by going away
21:16 < jonathan__> get the easy stuff documented and move on....
21:16 < kanzure> sorry the faq sucks so much
21:16 < kanzure> i tried to do that
21:16 < fenn> i think the journalists have moved on for a while at least
21:16 < kanzure> but have failed i guess
21:16 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:White_LED.png
21:16 < jonathan__> the sociologists haven't..   yet another philosophical debate is right around the corner lol
21:17 < kanzure> any *ist should be burned
21:17 < jonathan__> "This spectrum is not calibrated for intensity."
21:17 < fenn> nihilist!
21:17 < fenn> burn him!
21:17 < jonathan__> wth?   the graph shows intensity and it's not calibrated for intensity??
21:18 < kanzure> fenn: i don't have a degree in nihilism
21:18 < fenn> meh
21:18 < jonathan__> anyway light source doesnt matter
21:18 < jonathan__> if the rest of the system works, then just change out the emitter, big deal
21:18 < fenn> with enough software, we can pretend anything is anything
21:18 < fenn> or was that math..
21:18 < jonathan__> the emitter is like 5% of the total project
21:19 < fenn> yeah i sorta wonder how you calibrate for wavelength
21:19 < fenn> do certain substances have sharp absorbance peaks?
21:19 < jonathan__> about the other paper with the heater, the point was actually to show the heater mech drawing
21:19 < fenn> the schematic?
21:19 < jonathan__> let me check
21:20 < jonathan__> btw did you see the nyc diybio group strawberry "science day" thing
21:20 < jonathan__> the cdrom spec project is perfect for them
21:21 < jonathan__> fig. 2
21:21 < kanzure> jonathan__: why are you pandering to these people?
21:21 < kanzure> i know why fenn is tolerating the bullshit
21:21 < kanzure> but what's your reason?
21:21 < fenn> the square thingy with circle thingy looks hard to make
21:21 < jonathan__> what is pandering?
21:21 < fenn> kanzure: i'm not tolerating it, i'm ignoring it
21:21 < jonathan__> i mean what is your context?
21:22 < kanzure> you're sacrificing quality or something just to keep them happy and occupied
21:22 < jonathan__> every time dna synthesis comes up, you go  on and on about how everyone should diy everything, so who is pandering who?
21:22 < kanzure> no, 
21:22 < jonathan__> which of course is totally false, no one should diy a commodity
21:22 < kanzure> i'm saying that *i* want to do it myself
21:22 < kanzure> so they should fuck off and stop telling me not to
21:22 < fenn> i don't see what's so wrong about wanting a desktop DNA synthesizer
21:22 < jonathan__> well, stop answering them too
21:23 < kanzure> what?
21:23 < jonathan__> signal to noise ratio
21:23 < jonathan__> definition
21:23 < kanzure> sorry, what?
21:23 < jonathan__> high signal, low noise.
21:23 < jonathan__> signal = technical discussion.   noise = worthless debate
21:23 < fenn> what about totally useless technical discussion?
21:23 < jonathan__> more tech discussion, less worhless debate.  is better for high signal to noise ratio 
21:23 < kanzure> every time dna synthesis is brought up, *they* bring up the debate
21:24 < kanzure> don't blame me for their bullshit
21:24 < jonathan__> then you ignore it
21:24 < kanzure> um?
21:24 < jonathan__> there is no useless technical discussion
21:24 < kanzure> maybe they should just leave
21:24 < kanzure> if they're not actually interested in diy
21:24 < jonathan__> that is the worst attitude ever
21:24 < jonathan__> you wont win that battle
21:24 < kanzure> it's not a battle
21:24 < kanzure> they're just idiots..
21:24 < jonathan__> argument = battle
21:24 < kanzure> making noise that i can't tolerate
21:24 < jonathan__> "they're just idiots" = battle
21:25 < jonathan__> hit the delete key
21:25 < jonathan__> come on this is basic stuff here
21:25 < kanzure> so we all have to hit the delete key?
21:25 < jonathan__> didn't you add to the faq "dont be rude" ?
21:25 < fenn> hah
21:25 < jonathan__> ignore messages you don't like
21:25 < kanzure> for message trimming
21:25 < jonathan__> talk about technical stuff instead
21:25 < kanzure> i think for one time offenses it's perfectly fine to ignore the offense
21:25 < kanzure> but you mentioned this is repetitive
21:26 < kanzure> maybe that's telling you something
21:26 < jonathan__> let it go, you will not win
21:26 < jonathan__> ignore it,
21:26 < kanzure> win what?
21:26 < jonathan__> ok listen, basic rule of internet discussions.  rule #1.   drown out the lame conversation with better conversation
21:26 < kanzure> i told you i'ts not a battle
21:27 < fenn> "don't feed the troll"
21:27 < jonathan__> exactly
21:27 < jonathan__> "offense" = "battle"
21:27 < jonathan__> = "argument"
21:27 < jonathan__> = "dont tell me that I can't diy my dna synthesis"
21:27 < kanzure> so telling me that diy dna synthesis is impossible is trolling?
21:27 < kanzure> isn't this what moderators are for?
21:27 < jonathan__> = "rant rant rant I want to do diy and you should too"
21:27 < jonathan__> there are no moderators
21:27 < kanzure> yes there are
21:28 < jonathan__> you must be your own moderator
21:28 < kanzure> there's three of them
21:28 < kanzure> anyway, carry on
21:28 < fenn> besides, a good troll considers moderators as damage and routes around them, or something
21:28 < jonathan__> def'n.  moderator:  "someone who approves each message before it is emailed to all subscribers on a list.  unacceptable mesasges are dropped before mailing."
21:29 < jonathan__> so the point of the paper was the heater fig 2
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21:30 < jonathan__> "open thermocycler" guys seem fixated on creating a huge heating block of some kind, I dont know why
21:30 < fenn> because it's "professional"
21:31 < kanzure> that was just a giant thread, to my knowledge there's nobody actually doing anything
21:31 < jonathan__> well, they want to replace current equipment, that's why
21:31 < jonathan__> rather than evolve it to a next gen
21:31 < jonathan__> so what's difficult about making the heater element?   I dunno, I'm not mech e
21:32 < jonathan__> looks simple to me
21:32 < jonathan__> although, pcr tube is different, fits inside not on top
21:33 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: re, weather: eek
21:33 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@99.2.31.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:34 < ybit> anyone built a car from the ground up? i'm hearing estimates of 2-4 years to complete the project :\
21:34 < jonathan__> i'm not sure what the top IC is doing in that schematic, it doesnt make sense unless the software is explained..
21:35 < jonathan__> glow curves are kind of fascinating tho, I admit
21:35 < ybit> what companies/orgs allow you to attache modules to their rockets?
21:36 < jonathan__> maybe posting the paper makes no sense if I'm the only one looking at schematics in detail
21:37 < ybit> nah, i always read this stuff later
21:37 < ybit> keep posting
21:37 < fenn> what's the heater sandwich made of?
21:38 < jonathan__> the idea is to raise some technical discussion.   journal club isnt any good if no one comments.   altho it's an easy way for me to archive comments on the paper to blog it or faq it later
21:38 < jonathan__> do you have the paper?
21:39 < jonathan__> "Chromel is an alloy made of approximately 90 percent nickel and 10 percent chromium that is used to make the positive conductors of ANSI Type E (chromel-constantan) and K (chromel-alumel) thermocouples."   "Alumel is an alloy consisting of approximately 95% nickel, 2% manganese, 2% aluminium and 1% silicon. This magnetic alloy is used for thermocouples and thermocouple extension wire. "
21:40 < jonathan__> I dont know what the rails are made of, I assume it is alumel from the pic
21:40 < jonathan__> the alumel is wrapped in tightly wound nichrome wire
21:40 < jonathan__> "0.25 mm nichrome wire"   dunno what guage that is
21:41 < jonathan__> so the nichrome heats up under PWM, and the thermocouple measures
21:41 < jonathan__> oh sorry, I got all that wrong
21:42 < fenn> chromel/alumel are the two wires wrapped around the bottom rail
21:42 < fenn> er.. it's not really clear if those are two electrical conductors or one
21:43 < jonathan__> no, the wires dont wrap
21:43 < jonathan__> the chromal/alumel will just twist at the very center
21:43 < jonathan__> the nicrome wraps the bottom ceramic plate, which also has the rail/fins
21:43 < jonathan__> both top & bottom are "1 mm thick polished ceramic plate"
21:44 < fenn> what are the wires sticking out left/right?
21:44 < jonathan__> that is nichrome wire that is wound around tightly (like a transformer winding)
21:44 < jonathan__> = heater
21:45 < ybit> #off-topic of current discussion: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Battery_system ..wonder how long difficult it would be to replicate this]
21:45 < jonathan__> the top ceramic plate has a groove 0.5mm x 0.5mm cut  to allow the crhromel/alumel wires to go thru the center
21:46 < fenn> ybit i think the batteries alone cost $40k
21:46 < jonathan__> so anyway it is similar to what I was thinking for thermocycler (wrap nichrome around some heatable material) 
21:47 < jonathan__> which is why I was looking for heat conductive epoxy
21:47 < fenn> ok
21:47 < jonathan__> nichrome is usually wrapped around ceramic  (toaster oven etc)
21:47 < fenn> yea but that's radiant heat
21:47 < jonathan__> both as support and as nonconductive heat resistant post
21:47 < ybit> 40k for simple lithium-ion batteries?
21:48 < fenn> there's a lot of batteries
21:48 < jonathan__> radiant heat means what?
21:48 < fenn> it's not conducting heat into the ceramic
21:48 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiant_heat
21:48 < jonathan__> compared to?
21:48 < fenn> er.. burying the nichrome inside the ceramic like a power resistor
21:49 < jonathan__> well, there's 2 ceramic plates in fig 2, so it is internal
21:49 < fenn> ceramics tend to have poor thermal conductivity
21:50 < jonathan__> so thats why they're only 1mm thick?
21:50 < fenn> i bet they used ceramic because it has to go up to 500C to measure the emission spectrum
21:50 < jonathan__> hm
21:51 < fenn> and then they were like "how do we get the heating even with such awful conductivity"
21:51 < fenn> so that's why they have a huge square around the circle, to present an even heat flux
21:51 < jonathan__> does heat conductive epoxy solve that?
21:51 < fenn> i doubt it
21:51 < jonathan__> mg chemicals
21:52 < jonathan__> http://dkc1.digikey.com/ca/en/ph/MGChemical/EpoxyTC.html
21:52 < jonathan__> non conductive, thermally conductive
21:52 < fenn> what's more important, rapid temperature change or even heating?
21:52 < jonathan__> rapid temp change
21:52 < fenn> then you want to minimize thermal mass
21:52 < jonathan__> because, even heating can be worked around by making a bigger heater vs small sample right
21:53 < fenn> the absolute minimum is no mass at all.. i.e. the lightbulb heater
21:53 < jonathan__> yes, however nichrome needs some support and also needs nonconductive insulation
21:54 < jonathan__> rather than get a big block of aluminum and drill holes in it, why not make wells of nichrome that are supported, and pcr tube sits in the well
21:54 < fenn> i don't see any reason why not
21:54 < jonathan__> maybe it's a bad design which is why it hasn't been mentioned, but I dunno
21:54 < fenn> just more labor intensive
21:55 < fenn> also you have to individually calibrate the wells
21:55 < jonathan__> labor depends...   the block would need machining anyway..   with nichrome it's just a winding and epoxy it
21:55 < jonathan__> in fig 2, the thermocouple is built in, so it can negative feedback itself
21:56 < fenn> how do you get rid of heat?
21:56 < jonathan__> if mass is low, then it dissipates rapidly, so choices are, use a fan, or use a coolant
21:57 < jonathan__> thermocycling w/ only a fan is possible, seems more possible if mass is low
21:57 < fenn> ok tell me this, what is the advantage of individually wound heater coils vs arranging the tubes around a light bulb?
21:58 < fenn> or perhaps suspending them over some IR-emissive nichrome wire grid
21:59 < fenn> that's a good idea fenn.. /me gets self a cookie
21:59 < jonathan__> nichrome emits much more heat than light bulb, and also lasts far longer.   also nichrome can be shaped to the vessel.
22:00 < jonathan__> "suspending over heater" assumes a fan is blowing the hot air right.   has been shown not to be good for thermal conductivity esp. in plastic tubes.   (glass was marginal/OK)
22:00 < fenn> no
22:00 < jonathan__> in effect it is the plastic pcr tubes which are the biggest problem
22:00 < kanzure> on my todo stack: http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.CL/0104022
22:01 < fenn> i mean like you have a plane IR light source
22:01 < jonathan__> ok just go ahead and say it
22:01 < jonathan__> LETS USE A LAzERZ!!1@
22:01 < fenn> sorry kanzure is rotting my brains now
22:02 < jonathan__> you will have to explain "some IR-emissive nichrome wire grid"
22:02 < fenn> a wire mesh with current going through it
22:02 < jonathan__> o
22:02 < jonathan__> ok
22:03 < fenn> light bulb is a point source so you need a radial /spherical arrangement for even heating between tubes
22:03 < jonathan__> flat plane not as good as sitting a tube inside a heater
22:03 < fenn> with a plane source you can do a more traditional grid layout
22:03 < jonathan__> I have always been thinking independent well heating, so...
22:03 < fenn> ok
22:04 < fenn> beats the hell out of the 'gradient' stuff
22:04 < jonathan__> maybe that is not a good idea due to neg/pos controls
22:04 < fenn> meh
22:04 < jonathan__> maybe best fit for protocols is to have all wells uniform
22:05 < jonathan__> but, if each one is measured & calibrated, should be OK as long as uP can handle it
22:05 < jonathan__> i.e., no cost to use independent well control
22:06 < jonathan__> well this thermal compound is $55 for 450ml sooooo
22:08 < jonathan__> note the fig. 2 : " operating at much lower currents (0.5 A)"
22:08 < jonathan__> it's 30W
22:09 < jonathan__> seems thermocyclers are 100's of W
22:09 < jonathan__> I cant believe the $10 thermocycler guys have never stated power, still
22:16 < jonathan__> anyway post remaining thoughts to the group, i'm going to sleep
22:35 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercane
22:40 < ybit> http://pastebin.com/f6aeda4f8 related: http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/C_CPP/comp.lang.c/2005-05/msg02005.html
22:41 < ybit> adrafanil hasn't kicked in, like the first day. according to some web comment, you have to wait a few weeks
22:42  * ybit knows of only one other person that would be interested in a hackerspace here o.O
22:42  * ybit needs to put up some flyers @ the uni maybe..
22:45  * katsmeow-afk discovered keto-dhea
22:46 < katsmeow-afk> at least now when i goto bed, i am tired, and i sleep quickly
23:12 < ybit> anyone recall which news article showed uni students building small devices which were payloads for some rocket launch?
23:21 < kanzure> microsats
23:21 < kanzure> nanosats, etc.
23:21 < ybit> plenty of them, seems i'll probably need to partner with some uni if i'm going to get a payload on some rocket
23:23 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r 85096c4 /doc/architecture: notes on the architecture of instruction generation in skdb
23:27  * ybit wants a rundown costs for a launching a rocket into space
23:27 < ybit> +of
23:27 < ybit> -a
23:27 < ybit> fsck grammar @ 23:23
23:54 < fenn> i dont think anyone noticed
23:54 < fenn> kanzure: you wanted comments.. the subject in "subject verb object" is the one performing the action
23:55 < fenn> "man bites dog": man is the subject, dog is the object
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