--- Day changed Thu Sep 24 2009 00:00 < kanzure> genehacker should feel free to add new bricks to skdb 00:00 < fenn> genehacker: i meant to write a generator script to ease the process of adding bricks, but never got around to it 00:00 < genehacker> how do I add bricks to skdb? 00:00 * kanzure is working on ybit's issues at the moment 00:00 < fenn> genehacker: keep in mind there are sth like 3000 brick shapes available in ldraw already 00:00 < ncravens> now I'm understanding why so many materialist philosophers are from Australia. . ;p 00:00 < genehacker> yeah I know 00:00 * ybit is changing monitool_wrap.cpp atm 00:01 < kanzure> hah 00:01 < kanzure> lame 00:01 < fenn> genehacker: do you have heekscad installed? 00:01 < genehacker> yes 00:01 < genehacker> there are only several essential part types 00:01 < kanzure> ybit: tell me when you're done i guess 00:01 < kanzure> then run: g++ -fno-strict-aliasing -DNDEBUG -g -fwrapv -O2 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fPIC -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DHAVE_LIMITS_H -DCSFDB -DOCC_CONVERT_SIGNALS -DLIN -DLININTEL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D__PYTHONOCC_MAXINT__=2147483647 -I/usr/lib/opencascade -I/home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin -I/usr/include/python2.5 -c /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/MoniTool_wrap.cpp -o build/temp.linux-i686-2.5/home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/MoniTool_wrap.o -O0 -march=i686 00:02 < fenn> genehacker ok see this screen shot? http://adl.serveftp.org/lab/fenn/pngs/lego_interfaces_technic.png 00:02 < genehacker> stud, tube, axle, and the anti interfaces there of 00:02 < fenn> those coordinate systems define where the interfaces are 00:02 < fenn> now, it turns out the cad models i have are scaled wrong or something 00:02 < ncravens> Mother: "You'll meet some fat-ankled, loud-mouthed American girl and I'll never get to see my grandchildren!" 00:02 < ncravens> Father: "What if MIT doesn't have as good a workshop as our own? What will you do?" 00:02 < fenn> MIT didn't have as good a workshop i bet 00:03 < ybit> seems it changed on disk since i've been in here, i'll let you do whatever it is you were going to do 00:03 < genehacker> cool so you have a cad file for that type of brick right? 00:03 < ybit> kanzure^ 00:03 < kanzure> ybit: no please go ahead, i haven't touched it 00:03 < genehacker> .yaml file I mean 00:03 < ybit> then who touched it dammit 00:03 < ncravens> prolly not, like I'd know what that was, of course. ;p 00:03 < kanzure> not me said the little red hen 00:03 * ybit is going to kill pikachu 00:03 < ybit> heath@togetic:~$ cat /home/kanzure/pikachu_is_dead.txt 00:03 < ybit> pikachu couldn't handle the devastating seismic toss from togetic 00:03 < fenn> genehacker: skdb/import_tools/heeks_coords.py will convert a .heeks with those coordinate systems to .yaml 00:04 < fenn> then you get to label them 00:04 < genehacker> ok 00:04 < fenn> i'd much rather label them in heekscad but i havent done that yet 00:04 < genehacker> well if you have a yaml for that brick type then why not lengthen it for other brick types? 00:04 < genehacker> or why don't I do that? 00:05 < fenn> the numbers are pretty easy to figure out 00:05 < genehacker> one just has to put coordinate systems in holes in heekscad? 00:05 < fenn> right, but the way you do that is by editing coordinates 00:05 < fenn> otherwise it crashes and makes a mess 00:05 < kanzure> ybit: i need to sleep but i'll bitchslap togetic in the morning 00:06 < genehacker> well if you can characterize geometry you might be able to automate it 00:06 < fenn> feature recognition? not gonna happen 00:07 < fenn> that's like trying to do OCR in 3d 00:07 < fenn> there's this program "lego digital designer" that does just about everything i intended to do 00:08 < fenn> so after seeing that i haven't been terribly inspired to work on lego stuff 00:08 < ybit> oh right, kanzure, i'm done. i fail. going back to edit 00:09 < ybit> you can do what you need to, i'm working on a backup of the file 00:10 < fenn> you're still compiling pythonocc? 00:11 < ybit> working on it 00:11 < ybit> but i should be sleeping any min now since i have to be somewhat awake tomorrow while welding 00:11 < fenn> yep 00:12 < ybit> this computer generated code is confusing 00:12 < fenn> you aren't supposed to look at it 00:12 < ybit> that's what i gathered, but i figure there's something small that can fix this current issue 00:13 < ybit> but i'm not seeing it 00:13 < ybit> s/something small/some small error in the syntax 00:13 < ybit> guess it's time for sleep 00:14 < fenn> probably a gcc version difference 00:15 < fenn> char*& doesn't look right tho 00:17 < genehacker> it would really be nice to have a nice estimate of interference force in the lego 00:17 < genehacker> so you could figure out if the arbitrary struct you built out of lego would actually stand up 00:17 < genehacker> that gets hard because you have stuff bending 00:19 < fenn> 1lbf/stud 00:19 < jonathan__> ahhh whyyyy lego? 00:19 < fenn> because it's easy 00:20 < jonathan__> lego is the most proprietary interlocking system on the planet 00:20 < fenn> there's actually a system there to study 00:20 < fenn> what do you propose instead? 00:20 < jonathan__> i guess you are using someone else's lego library right 00:20 < fenn> also there are LOTS of freely licensed cad models already available for lego 00:21 < fenn> unfortunately the models don't include connection information 00:22 < fenn> which i find really odd 00:22 < jonathan__> surely some ME somewhere has built their own system? 00:22 < genehacker> lego is simple 00:22 < ncravens> later goons! 00:22 < jonathan__> lego is proprietary 00:22 < jonathan__> "lets get rid of money" != lego 00:22 < genehacker> uhh 00:23 < genehacker> it's a good starting point 00:23 -!- ncravens [n=chatzill@s66-76-64-254.nacdcmta01.ncgdtx.tl.sta.suddenlink.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 00:23 < genehacker> were teaching skdb to play with block first before we move to V8 engines 00:23 < jonathan__> bsd unix could have copied AT&T code because "it was a good starting point" however they didnt because it was proprietary and knew it would hurt in the long run. so they rewrote all the libraries 00:24 < fenn> jonathan__: provide constructive criticism or shut up 00:24 < fenn> solutions 00:24 < jonathan__> that is constructive example 00:24 < fenn> alternatives 00:24 < genehacker> anyway it'd be nice to figure out the manufacturability of various lego assemblies 00:24 < jonathan__> so you're saying you havent found anything? 00:24 < fenn> i'd love to add makerbeam or whatever, but it doesn't exist yet 00:25 < genehacker> for example square brick to square brick connecting by one stud to anti stud isn't going to be very manufacturable 00:26 < genehacker> it's best to pick up blocks from the center push them down from the center 00:26 < fenn> min-a-max is a neat idea but i'm nowhere near as familiar with it as lego (and it's probably just as encumbered from a legal standpoint, even if nobody is going to enforce it) 00:26 < fenn> it helps to actually understand how a system works before trying to write a bunch of code about it 00:27 < genehacker> so if you try to push them together from the easy to grab center to one of the corner studs it's not going to go on well 00:27 < genehacker> because you got a couple that wants to rotate the brick 00:30 < jonathan__> so utex.org has a 2 day microalgal culture workshop tomorrow & fri. only $600 per person... 00:30 < jonathan__> any way to bypass that? 00:31 < jonathan__> must be some killer workshop 00:32 < jonathan__> (sarcasm) 00:32 < fenn> genehacker: i know what you mean and it's not a big deal.. we know what interfaces are connected and can calculate the centroid (where to push) 00:33 < fenn> the harder problem is figuring out what order to put things together 00:33 < fenn> i bet there are even structures you can come up with that are impossible to assemble 00:37 < fenn> there are a lot of building systems that are hard to see even though we use them all the time 00:37 < fenn> like 2x4 and drywall screws, or plexiglass+solvent+hot bender 00:37 < jonathan__> I had this http://www.erectorusa.com/ 00:37 < fenn> but a lot of them involve modifying the geometry in some way, which turns out to be harder to do than I thought 00:38 < fenn> how is that any less proprietary than lego? 00:38 < ybit> btw 00:38 < ybit> heath@togetic:~$ gcc --version 00:38 < ybit> gcc (Debian 4.3.2-1.1) 4.3.2 00:38 < ybit> what do you have fenn & kanzure? 00:38 < fenn> 4.3.3 but i doubt it matters 00:39 < ybit> couldn't hurt 00:40 < jonathan__> I am sure it is also proprietary. however its basically metal rails with bevelled edges, normal bolts/nuts, and different predrilled plastic parts 00:40 < fenn> i could do GIK instead, would that make you happy? 00:40 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIK 00:40 < fenn> only problem is i don't have any way to make GIK 00:41 < jonathan__> I wonder if the plastic guys like TAP plastics have ever designed their own, whether they marketed or not 00:42 < fenn> or pvc pipe.. 00:42 < jonathan__> as long as the s/w layer is swappable, then it doesnt matter of course, ditch it later for something better 00:42 < ybit> yeah it doesn't matter, bedtime or there will be death in the shop tomorrow 00:43 < ybit> or even worse, little ybit is welded off 00:43 < genehacker> I don't think it's possible to figure out all the above automatically 00:44 < fenn> i'm not terribly enthusiastic about building toys because "real stuff" isn't made with them 00:44 < genehacker> because one would have to do FEM on the interlocking bricks to figure out if such couples were capable of dislodging the brcik 00:44 < fenn> i have to get geometry modification figured out eventually 00:45 < genehacker> deformation? 00:45 < fenn> yes, and also machining, welding, casting, etc 00:46 < genehacker> min a max might be easier 00:46 < genehacker> it's just a cylinder 00:46 < fenn> min-a-max can't do everything 00:46 < fenn> you can't make a jet engine from it 00:46 < genehacker> yeah you can't here's the thing 00:46 < genehacker> FEM takes a long time 00:46 < fenn> oh pfff 00:46 < fenn> they were doing FEM on computers in 1980 00:46 < genehacker> FEM needs to be analyzed by a human much of the time 00:47 < fenn> you young'uns just have to use super detailed meshes for some stupid reason 00:47 < genehacker> good point 00:47 < fenn> anyway i don't plan on doing FEM any time soon 00:48 < genehacker> but here's the thing, doing FEM for assembling each brick isn't such a good idea 00:48 < fenn> i agree 00:55 < fenn> all of these construction toys are either lego clones or erector set clones 00:59 < jonathan__> what do the professional ME's use? or do they. 01:01 < jonathan__> the ME guys I knew in industry never rapid prototyped with physical models. I guess kind of like most programmers dont write pseudocode. 01:09 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:16 -!- Phreedom [n=quassel@195.216.211.175] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:44 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:44 < genehacker> so I got a challenge for you 01:45 < genehacker> automatically design a powered lego cart from a graph 01:45 < genehacker> a cart that goes in straight line along a flat surface 01:49 < genehacker> http://journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=183050 01:50 < genehacker> lego grammar 02:09 < genehacker> well I think you're going in the right path 02:09 < genehacker> reading some automatic design papers 02:10 < genehacker> I didn't know that programs could make their own grammars 02:38 < katsmeow-afk> google "self-modifying code" and "string execution" 02:39 < katsmeow-afk> "dynamic includes" 02:40 < katsmeow-afk> or if you don't care about breaking namespace and variable scopes of the originating program, simply write a new script to a file,a nd callthe interpreter/compiler to execute it 02:55 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-38-62.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47 -!- any27144339 [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:51 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:10 -!- Netsplit orwell.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: davidnunez, ybit 04:11 -!- Netsplit orwell.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Overand, drazak, goonie 04:11 -!- Netsplit orwell.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: nsh, mason_l, any27144339 04:13 -!- bkero [n=bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13 -!- bkero [n=bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:13 -!- davidnunez [n=davidnun@209-6-203-217.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:13 -!- ybit [i=ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:14 -!- any27144339 [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:14 -!- mason_l [n=x@202-89-188-136.static.dsl.amnet.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:14 -!- nsh [i=sbp@59.176.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:20 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h107n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:27 -!- drazak [n=drazak@drazak.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:27 -!- Overand [i=overand@crappy.domain.name] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:27 -!- goonie [n=goonie@neuroblastoma.cs.pdx.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:59 -!- flamoot [n=root@74.13.34.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07 < kanzure> jonathan__: like most labs, it can be bypassed by just hanging out in the lab 05:25 < kanzure> ybit: i did some magic to /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/MoniTool_wrap.cpp near line 7298 and 11076 05:26 < kanzure> oh why did i bother 05:26 < kanzure> swig is just going to regenerate it 05:53 -!- flamoot [n=root@74.13.31.196] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:04 -!- mason_l is now known as mason-l 06:18 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:45 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 09:25 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:51 -!- jonathan__ [n=jonathan@66-90-167-249.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 10:14 -!- superkuh [n=hukrepus@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit ["The action potential is an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt structural changes in the lipid bilayer of neurons."] 10:35 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r 3d784b2 /doc/ (architecture proposals/action.py): Outlined architecture discussed yesterday. 10:36 < kanzure> fenn: i didn't bring in the external hard drive today. if you end up wanting to come in, could you grab that for me? 10:40 < kanzure> ybit: you ran out of disk space 10:48 < kanzure> i guess i can move to /mnt/g but i don't know what's on there 10:57 -!- any53805684 [n=someone@75.120.41.128] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:02 -!- any27144339 [n=someone@99-195-191-219.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:34 -!- any53805684 [n=someone@75.120.41.128] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:46 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r 5b42efe / (5 files in 3 dirs): Various changes to the bearing package and import_tools/surf.py 11:46 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r a26b23e /import_tools/del_repo/yaml_fixer.py: old uncommitted code that fixes up yaml imported from DEL .repo XML 12:00 < kanzure> call me crazy: http://onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/08/18/ikvm.html 12:00 < kanzure> "The third and final component of IKVM is the ikvmstub compiler, which can be used to generate stubs in Java that wrap .NET classes. With this, you can write Java code that calls into .NET libraries. Note however, that the compiled Java code has to be run on the IKVM JVM. This feature, when coupled with the ikvmc command, makes Java a first-class language to develop applications targeting the .NET CLR " 12:01 < kanzure> wonder if jpype works with ikvmjvm 12:01 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-10-45.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:15 < xp_prg> I am trying to figure out the brst plant cells to use in a bio printing inkjet printer, any ideas? 12:15 < xp_prg> what plant cells readily fuse together? 12:15 -!- strages [n=strages@c-68-62-216-5.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:15 < xp_prg> and could be printed? 12:17 -!- strages [n=strages@c-68-62-216-5.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:56 < kanzure> are there any ocr programs that correctly identify "fi"? 12:59 < katsmeow-afk> spell cheackers? 13:00 < kanzure> well in ocr'd documents usually "fi" is replaced with " " instead of any particular indication that there was a problem at that location 13:00 < katsmeow-afk> tunally, goool ODH ! 13:00 < kanzure> your speaking privleges are hereby revoked 13:00 < kanzure> :p 13:01 < katsmeow-afk> i know the frustration, i scanned in books too, wore out two scanenrs 13:01 < kanzure> fenn: well it turns out i'm not the only one who plants his trees upside down http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/instructions/Generating%20effective%20natural%20language%20instructions%20based%20on%20agent%20expertise.pdf.fig518.png 13:01 < katsmeow-afk> i finally resorted to plain ole spell check and text replacement 13:02 < kanzure> imho recaptcha would be so much cooler if we could apply it to our own ocr collections 13:02 < katsmeow-afk> RE-captcha? 13:02 < kanzure> i.e., seed your local recaptcha server with stuff from your collection that might not have been scanned properly (an ocr algorithm could conceivably flag certain items for human review) 13:02 < kanzure> yes 13:03 < kanzure> if they're going to make you type in random text, might as well make it useful. they claim that you're helping to ocr some google library or something, but i don't believe it 13:03 < kanzure> (haven't seen any evidence of any recaptcha answer going anywhere useful, ever) 13:03 * katsmeow-afk nods 13:03 < katsmeow-afk> they send it out to 1000 sites, and then average the results 13:04 < kanzure> but then put it where? 13:04 < katsmeow-afk> 992 people said it was "the" , etc 13:04 < kanzure> yeah but it seems to be just a black hole 13:04 < katsmeow-afk> praps 1000 other peple hadn't responded yet, so it isn't used where you were looking for it yet 13:05 < katsmeow-afk> i dunno 13:05 < kanzure> hm i have a screen session within a screen session 13:05 < bkero> Yes 13:05 < bkero> You use ctrl+a+a+ to control the nested screen 13:06 < katsmeow-afk> i still say ImageMajick could clean up capcha so ocr can read it 13:06 < kanzure> is this robust? i mean, can i do nested nests of nests of hives of nested nests? 13:06 < kanzure> imagemagick 13:06 < katsmeow-afk> that's what you said 13:06 < bkero> kanzure: yes 13:06 < bkero> ctrl+a+a+a++a+a+a+a+a+n works 13:06 < kanzure> bkero: ctrl+a+a just switches to another active window in my root screen 13:07 < kanzure> ah nevermind 13:07 < bkero> :P 13:07 < kanzure> you have to unpress ctrl 13:07 < bkero> Yes 13:11 < kanzure> do beeps and requests for attention funnel correctly? 13:13 < bkero> Probably 13:47 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:48 < kanzure> hm tinytree (on pypi) implements a Tree class where they let a Tree be a node, but that doesn't let a tree become a graph (if it has to) because nodes are never going to have edges pointing away 13:48 < kanzure> guess it doesn't matter, python-graph is fine 14:25 < kanzure> fenn: suppose you had two people making your pie. even if you make the crust yourself, and you slice the apples yourself, it's effectively two different branches and it might as well have been two separate agents. 14:26 < kanzure> as far as Pie.build knows, it might as well have been two (different) agents 14:26 < kanzure> so there can be an 'asynchronous tree' which means a single agent can doodle around for a while on his own, 14:27 < kanzure> and a 'synchronous tree' which means that two agents must be "synchronized" in order to carry on 14:27 < kanzure> this is where the state merging occurs 14:27 < kanzure> it's not just a merging of states in the skdb code Pie.build code but also a merging of states as far as the agents are concerned with each other 14:27 < kanzure> i.e., "the pie hand off" as it were 14:28 < kanzure> er, 'sliced apples hand off' 14:33 < kanzure> this solves the state merging problem. 14:42 < kanzure> blargh having actions as edges is weird, how can you have multiple inputs to an action if an action is an edge? that means that you're pulling the "campbell hyperarc" nonsense on me 14:48 < fenn> fine do it the other way 14:53 < kanzure> should Part.build modify the part instance? maybe a "private build tree" that doesn't have to be recomputed? 14:54 < fenn> why would you want that? 14:55 < fenn> is this just memozing? 14:55 < fenn> memoizing* 14:56 < kanzure> actually it's so that it's more clear to the author of the build method 14:56 < kanzure> instead of passing a "build tree" (wtf) to an agent's action method, you just say agent.insert(object=apples, into=crust) 14:56 < kanzure> and "apples" and "crust" have their build trees associated 14:57 < kanzure> so "insert" can check the state if it wants to 14:57 < kanzure> (a state is built) 14:57 < kanzure> er nevermind. 14:57 < kanzure> let me write code for now. 14:58 < fenn> heh latest issue of hplusmagazine has the phrase 'neuroengineering fabratories' 14:58 * kanzure looks around suspiciously 14:58 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h107n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:59 < kanzure> a part isn't just a Part, it's also the entire history of building that went into it 15:00 < fenn> i see 15:01 < kanzure> heh so a part is both an assembly (which is a graph) as well as a build-tree of sorts (which is a tree) 15:09 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@w-mob400-128-62-218-56.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:44 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@w-mob400-128-62-218-56.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45 < CIA-32> skdb: kanzure * r 1d4cbcd /doc/proposals/action.py: simplified the action.py example for instruction generation 15:48 -!- xp_prg is now known as xp_gone 15:48 -!- xp_gone is now known as xp_lunch 15:57 -!- jonathan__ [n=jonathan@dhcp-146-6-213-223.icmb.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:57 < kanzure> for some reason i wanted to try making a 'marker' that indicates whether or not __init__ has been called for a class, but this screws up in situations with inheritance from multiple inheritance using that "init has been called marker" scheme 15:57 < kanzure> hey jonathan__, i'm just now leaving for the bus, so we'll have to catch each other later 15:57 < jonathan__> yeah 15:57 < jonathan__> i just found out my project is hosed 15:58 < jonathan__> vendor won't give out the docs to control the rest of the robot 15:59 < jonathan__> just as nice as microsoft 16:02 < fenn> you're an EE, just reverse engineer it :P 16:03 < fenn> you have a logic analyzer? 16:03 < fenn> or DSO 16:08 < jonathan__> it's a very large serial protocol. 16:09 < jonathan__> so the size of the problem is very large as well. 16:24 < drazak> jonathan__: see if nenolod is interested, he reverse engineered a driver for the audigy crystal card thinger in 1 week 16:25 < drazak> jonathan__: also if you're an ee do you have any extra nice multiumeters that you're looking to get rid of? 16:25 < jonathan__> ha, what is "extra nice" 16:31 < drazak> uhmmm more than 10k count 16:32 < jonathan__> I'd guess no 16:33 < drazak> you 16:33 < drazak> you're no metrologist then? :) 16:34 < ybit> kanzure: feel free to move to /mnt/g 16:35 < jonathan__> one of my EE profs long ago mentioned a story about a really smart roommate he had while an undergrad. He said he guy used to use his tongue to test the beta of transistors across a 9v battery and used them to build a CRT TV with tuner. 16:35 < drazak> rofl 16:35 < drazak> well, I need to match resistors to .01% tolerance 16:35 < drazak> :D 16:35 < ybit> eric raymond emailed me back 16:36 < drazak> I might just build a wheatstone bridge 16:36 < ybit> the guy with solar flight 16:37 < ybit> damn this bug in xmonad 16:38 < ybit> eric's response: 16:38 < ybit> I can not release to you any of the technical data you asked for until we have a solid business plan together. 16:38 < ybit> The batteries are good for over three years, and thousands of cycles. 16:38 < ybit> The batteries I fly with are not safe, but there are safe ones with lower energy density. 16:38 < ybit> The Stemme needs to be built light from the beginning to become a viable electric aircraft. 16:38 < ybit> expected but still lame 16:40 < fenn> since it's a glider it wouldn't really need that many batteries 16:40 < fenn> just enough to get up in the air 16:41 < fenn> i think i calculated it once for an ultralight, would be about $15k in lithium ion batteries (if li-ion works that is) 16:43 < ybit> we have an ultralight at work 16:43 < ybit> speaking of, i got to use a plasma cutter today 16:43 < ybit> life doesn't get any better than that :P 16:43 < ybit> i was all grins when blasting through sheets of metal 16:47 < ybit> anyone shared a similar exp when using a plasma cutter, surely i'm not the only only who thought it was fun 16:47 < ybit> katsmeow-afk, bkero, fenn, eh? 16:48 < ybit> heath@togetic:/home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/samples/Tools/CADViewer$ python CADViewer.py 16:48 < ybit> Traceback (most recent call last): 16:48 < ybit> File "CADViewer.py", line 24, in 16:48 < ybit> import OCC 16:48 < ybit> ImportError: No module named OCC 16:48 < ybit> funny thing is locate shows no occ.py 16:48 < ybit> i've worked around this error once before i do believe 16:50 -!- xp_lunch is now known as xp_prg 16:51 < fenn> yeah yeah good for you kid 16:51 < fenn> OCC is a module; in python terms that means a folder named OCC with a file __init__.py 16:52 < ybit> i almost feel like an idiot, but i can blame this on sleep deprivation, right? right. 16:53 < jonathan__> big ruckus outside MBB now 16:54 < xp_prg> mbb? 16:54 < jonathan__> 8 big fire trucks, 2 EMS 16:54 < jonathan__> 3 or 4 cop trucks 16:54 < jonathan__> they wheeled some guy out of the physics lab on a stretcher 16:55 < jonathan__> ha, it's all over twitter... figures 17:04 < kanzure> wait he was wheeled out because of twitter? 17:06 < kanzure> ybit: did you fix the storage issue or continue setup.py's build -NO_GEOM in /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/ ? 17:12 < ybit> i didn't know where you were, i was trying to figure out where you got to 17:13 < ybit> i'll mv /var/www to /mnt/g, that should free up 18gb or so 17:13 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-51-180.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:30 < drazak> ybit: you asked for technical data? 17:31 < drazak> you do realize that's one of the biggest faux pas ever 18:09 < ybit> the build sure got further along this time 18:09 < ybit> build/temp.linux-i686-2.5/home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/XCAFPrs_wrap.o: file not recognized: File truncated 18:09 < ybit> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status 18:09 < ybit> error: command 'g++' failed with exit status 1 18:10 < jonathan__> "there was a chem explosion in RLM and a grad student got hurt. i saw him wheeled out with his head covered in bandages. " 18:11 < jonathan__> that's the rumor anyway 18:13 < genehacker> so that's what the hazmat trucks were for? 18:13 < genehacker> RLM is the physics building isn't it? 18:13 < kanzure> that's barbaric 18:14 < genehacker> not the chem building? 18:14 < genehacker> that's odd 18:15 < genehacker> I don't think there are any chem labs in RLM 18:16 < katsmeow-afk> woo, i found Florence 18:16 < katsmeow-afk> wasn't even looking, either 18:19 < genehacker> RLM doesn't have any fume hoods 18:21 < kanzure> how do you know 18:23 < drazak> hell we have fume hoods here 18:52 < ybit> 18:16 < katsmeow-afk> woo, i found Florence 18:52 < ybit> hehe, you were in town today? 18:53 < ybit> you could have stopped by the junkyard on 72, i just now got back from there 18:53 < ybit> the, er, "red's" 18:54 < genehacker> because there aren't any filter columns on top of RLM 18:54 < genehacker> or at least none that I know of 18:55 -!- ve [n=a@94-193-95-252.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:56 < genehacker> you know those things on top of CPE? 18:56 < genehacker> they're filter columns 18:58 < genehacker> I think 19:08 < katsmeow-afk> ybit : nono, it's labeled on the weather map 19:12 < genehacker> http://www.plantops.umich.edu/maintenance/shops/Millwright/images/med_cool_twr.jpg 19:12 < genehacker> these are what fumehood exhaust systems generally look like 19:52 -!- jonathan__ [n=jonathan@dhcp-146-6-213-223.icmb.utexas.edu] has quit [] 20:00 -!- dira [n=chatzill@de2-as1165.alshamil.net.ae] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]"] 20:54 < genehacker> http://www.kmf.gu.se/bildcenter/kamera2/ 22:00 -!- any04446805 [n=someone@75-120-38-228.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:00 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-10-45.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:01 -!- any04446805 is now known as katsmeow 22:04 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 22:13 < ybit> damn i hate professors who seem to feel they continually have to prove that they are knowledgeable 22:13 < ybit> s/professors/people in general 22:14 < ybit> 'let me finish my sentence a-hole' is one of my thoughts when dealing with these people 22:15 * katsmeow-afk nods quietly so you may continue 22:15 < ybit> no i'm good :) 22:15 * ybit has been stressing on how to make a living after gradiating 22:15 < ybit> graduating* 22:15 < katsmeow-afk> lol 22:16 < katsmeow-afk> sounded there for a sec like you had been edumacated in Alaabamy 22:16 < ybit> ideally i want a plot of land near the beach with enough room for a runway, crops, hydroponic garden, and maybe a small house 22:16 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: hehe 22:17 < ybit> just the qwerty keyboard being quirky 22:17 < katsmeow-afk> beach? 22:17 < ybit> who doesn't want to live on the beach 22:17 < katsmeow-afk> well, you got the river there 22:17 < katsmeow-afk> so i didn't know which beach you meant 22:18 < katsmeow-afk> i did a lil calculating, figured the cost of an acre of ocean front = the cost of an acre of boat 22:18 < ybit> that's one large boat 22:19 < katsmeow-afk> and at least with the boat, you can travel 22:19 < katsmeow-afk> and the taxes are lower 22:19 < katsmeow-afk> wll, i didn't mean you should by an acre of boat any more than you should get an acre on the beach 22:19 < ybit> oh and ideally, i have a boat, plane, underwater plane/personal submarine type thingie, and i have enough space to shoot things into outer space 22:20 < katsmeow-afk> you have a few more ambitions than i do 22:20 < ybit> really, why not? 22:20 < katsmeow-afk> what? 22:20 < ybit> s/?/. 22:20 < katsmeow-afk> 5876iy84y23231#$%*$%^*&#% 22:21 < ybit> if you are living, why not do these things 22:21 < katsmeow-afk> oh, you could spread yourself too thin 22:21 < katsmeow-afk> and, things cost money 22:21 < ybit> so i'm told, grr 22:22 < katsmeow-afk> it's not my fault? 22:23 < ybit> how can you spread yourself too thin, you concenrate on one experiment, get it done, move on to the next project, after awhile you just accumulate a bunch of things, you aren't necessarily working on several projects at once, maybe 2-3 at most 22:24 < katsmeow-afk> because some things turn into several projects 22:24 < genehacker> you could shoot stuff into space on a boat 22:24 < genehacker> especially with a ram accelerator 22:24 < katsmeow-afk> forinstance, the drive syatem for your boat, your plane, and your sub, need a lathe, so you need to build one of those too 22:25 < genehacker> I think you only need a 15-40 meter ram accelerator to get something into space 22:25 < katsmeow-afk> the ram accelaerator, and the testing for a pack tho withstand 60Gs , money and time and more stuff to make 22:25 < genehacker> yeah 22:25 < ybit> holy shit, build worked o.O kanzure, did you do something? 22:25 < genehacker> I think more than 60 gs 22:25 < genehacker> like a lot more 22:26 < katsmeow-afk> 60G for 40 meters, is too low? 22:26 < genehacker> yeah 22:26 < katsmeow-afk> 32ft/sec^ * 60 * 40 meters,, how fast is that? 22:26 < katsmeow-afk> 32ft/sec^2 22:30 < ybit> pythonocc install was successful o.O 22:30 < ybit> this calls for some type of celebration 22:31 < ybit> togetic:/home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC# python /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/samples/Tools/InteractiveViewer/InteractiveViewer.py 22:31 < ybit> Traceback (most recent call last): 22:32 < ybit> File "/home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/samples/Tools/InteractiveViewer/InteractiveViewer.py", line 54, in 22:32 < ybit> import wx.aui 22:32 < ybit> aww, so close 22:32 < ybit> ImportError: No module named aui 22:35 < ybit> grr, python-wxgtk2.8 is installed, and... export PYTHONPATH=$PYTHONPATH:/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/OCC:/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx 22:38 * ybit is waiting on fenn to mumble something of value ;) 22:42 < ybit> oh, so why the beach? at the end of the day, it just seems a lot more relaxing to be looking over the ocean then to be staring at a backyard fence 22:42 < ybit> katsmeow-afk ^ 22:44 < ybit> there's something psychological about limits where an ocean view represents unlimited potential whereas a fence represents borders and limits which you aren't allowed to step over? 22:45 < ybit> anyone else thought of this? if no, at least i know there's a problem 22:49 < katsmeow-afk> i agree 22:49 < katsmeow-afk> which is why i got 12 acres on a mountain that i can see down the valley as far as the smog allows 22:50 < ybit> yeah, nice views i suppose are what i'm going for 22:50 < katsmeow-afk> but i can't afford ocean property, hence the boat 22:51 < kanzure> hello ybit 22:51 < ybit> hiya kanzure, have you been working on python-occ this afternoon? 22:51 < ybit> the build and install didn't complain 22:51 < kanzure> i'm looking for togetic 22:52 < ybit> import wx.aui 22:52 < kanzure> ah found it 22:52 < ybit> that's what's failing now which is odd since the path to the file is stated in the pythonpath 22:53 < ybit> at least it's a problem which is much more simple 22:53 < kanzure> can you show me your $PYTHONPATH 22:53 < ybit> togetic:/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx# echo $PYTHONPATH 22:53 < ybit> :/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/OCC:/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/OCC://usr/include/wx-2.8/wx/aui/aui.h:/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/OCC:/usr/include/wx-2.8/wx/aui/aui.h:/usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/OCC:/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/ 22:53 < ybit> //usr/include/wx-2.8/wx/aui/aui.h ..EEK 22:53 < kanzure> huh you have 2.4 libraries and 2.6 libraries all at once? 22:54 < kanzure> fenn: say: "the limit as n approaches infinity of the series as i approaches n of (x+2)" 22:54 < kanzure> sorry not x, but i 22:54 < kanzure> s/series/sum/ 22:55 < kanzure> fenn: "the limit as n approaches infinity of the series as i approaches n of (x+2)" 22:55 < kanzure> er 22:56 < kanzure> sum of (x+2) from x=0 xto x=12 22:56 < kanzure> ybit: i once had this same error but i don't remember how i fixed it. where are you running InteractiveViewer.py? 22:58 < ybit> /home/kanzure/local/pythonOCC/src/samples/Tools/InteractiveViewer/InteractiveViewer.py 22:58 < kanzure> ok 22:58 < ybit> they pythonpath sure is redundant 22:59 < ybit> maybe it had to do with sourceing env_DRAW.sh, /me peers into the contents of that file 22:59 < kanzure> iirc the problem was that wx2.6 was still installed and active 23:00 < kanzure> and even then, your python distribution will still think 2.6 is the main/default installed version or something weird like that 23:00 < ybit> pythonpath isn't specified in env_draw.sh 23:00 < kanzure> it doesn't have anything to do with pythonpath 23:00 < ybit> strange, okay 23:01 < kanzure> what are you removing at the moment? 23:02 < ybit> yay, removing 2.6 fixed that prob 23:02 < ybit> File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/OCC/TopoDS.py", line 27, in 23:02 < ybit> import _TopoDS 23:02 < ybit> ImportError: libTKDCAF.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or director 23:02 < ybit> almost there.. 23:03 < kanzure> i think that's in my ~ 23:03 < kanzure> hm maybe not 23:04 < kanzure> oh 23:04 < kanzure> well fenn showed you how to do this 23:04 < kanzure> the problem is that /usr/lib/libTKDCAF-6.2.so is not properly linked 23:04 < ybit> /usr/lib/libTKDCAF-6.2.so 23:04 < fenn> who what huh 23:04 < fenn> you should have 6.3 installed 23:04 < ybit> ln -s /usr/lib/libTKDCAF-6.2.so /home/kanzure/somewhere 23:04 < kanzure> no 23:04 < kanzure> ybit: wrong.. check the pythonocc install notes 23:04 < kanzure> fenn had this huge section of symbolic links 23:05 < fenn> pythonOCC-0.3 won't work with opencascade 6.2 23:05 * kanzure just made the link for ybit 23:05 < fenn> the symbolic link stuff was because debian didn't package it the same way as opennovation (and ubuntu(?)) 23:05 < ybit> File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/OCC/TopoDS.py", line 27, in 23:05 < ybit> import _TopoDS 23:05 < ybit> ImportError: libTKDraw.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or director 23:05 < ybit> what was the code for the link kanzure? 23:06 < fenn> did making a link fix the TKDCAF error? 23:06 < ybit> it seems so 23:06 < kanzure> yes 23:06 < fenn> (btw i never needed DCAF or Draw or wok) 23:06 < ybit> /usr/lib/opencas/libTKDraw.so 23:07 < ybit> 23:05 < ybit> what was the code for the link kanzure? 23:07 < ybit> s/code/command 23:07 < kanzure> sudo ln -s /usr/lib/libTKDCAF-6.2.so /usr/lib/libTKDCAF.so 23:07 < fenn> you shouldn't need all the opencascade pacakges because in the configure "checking to see if you have libraries installed" it'll just say "... no" and then not build the python module for that library 23:07 < kanzure> stuff in /usr/lib/opencas/ had to be there for the compile/swig stuff to work apparently 23:07 < kanzure> but on my local installation, i don't have /usr/lib/opencas/ 23:07 < fenn> btw ybit can you do 'from OCC.gp import *' from a python prompt? 23:08 < kanzure> no module named _gp 23:08 < katsmeow-afk> all this talk of ocean views, i had to go make a dead-fish sammich 23:09 < ybit> hehe 23:11 < fenn> hmm. "plot of land near the beach with a runway" makes me think of alaska 23:11 < ybit> i just did ln -s /usr/lib/opencas/* /usr/lib/ 23:11 < ybit> that seemed to take care of "can't find this file" complaints 23:11 < ybit> File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/OCC/TopoDS.py", line 27, in 23:11 < ybit> import _TopoDS 23:11 < ybit> ImportError: /usr/lib/libTKXSDRAW.so: undefined symbol: _ZN10DrawTrSurf3GetERPKc 23:11 < ybit> odd 23:11 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, i doubt you'll find affordable 2500ft strip , and neighbors who'd allow a airport, in the lower 48 23:12 < ybit> >>> from OCC.gp import * 23:12 < ybit> Traceback (most recent call last): 23:12 < ybit> File "", line 1, in 23:12 < ybit> File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/OCC/gp.py", line 27, in 23:12 < ybit> import _gp 23:12 < ybit> ImportError: /usr/lib/libTKXSDRAW.so: undefined symbol: _ZN10DrawTrSurf3GetERPKc 23:12 < ybit> huh, same error 23:14 * ybit has recently come to the realization that if you want something done, you do it yourself. 23:14 < katsmeow-afk> sucks, doesn't it? 23:14 < katsmeow-afk> well, sometimes it sucks 23:15 * ybit wonders why it took so long to learn 23:15 < katsmeow-afk> i waited 2 weeks for two epople who said they'd sell me monitors in other irc channels, and gave up and did this buy : Desktop Computer w/Monitor & Peripherals ; 10 Used Black PS/2 Keyboards ; Gateway 15” LCD Computer Monitor ; DELL E153FPb 15” LCD Computer Monitor ; Dell E152FPb 15" Color LCD Monitor ; Compaq Presario SR1222NX (P4 2.9 GHz) ; Dell Dimension 4550 (P4 2.53 GHz) Tower PC = $148.59 23:15 < ybit> wow, not bad 23:16 < ybit> if you're not off the grid, that electrical bill has got to be monstrous 23:16 < ybit> well, maybe not with just 2 pcs and 3 monitors 23:17 < ybit> at some point, space is a consideration as well with comps 23:17 < katsmeow-afk> i am looking at 2sec booting with ubuntu, and peripheral avr to do lil stuff 23:17 < ybit> you have exp with avr-gcc? 23:17 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, i just hunk the shelf for the puters, with a kvm switch and gbit lan switch 23:18 < katsmeow-afk> hung 23:19 < ybit> you programming types, how do you fix a binary issue o.O 23:20 < ybit> only thing i can think of is to reinstall the file and i know that isn't very practical nor does it mean it will work afterward 23:20 < fenn> looo loo loo loo... now i'm going to be thinking about calculus all night 23:22 < fenn> "binary issue" = what exactly? 23:22 < ybit> write(2, "/usr/lib/libTKXSDRAW.so: undefine"..., 67/usr/lib/libTKXSDRAW.so: undefined symbol: _ZN10DrawTrSurf3GetERPKc) = 67 23:22 < ybit> write(2, "/usr/lib/libTKXSDRAW.so: undefine"..., 67/usr/lib/libTKXSDRAW.so: undefined symbol: _ZN10DrawTrSurf3GetERPKc) = 67 23:22 < ybit> ImportError: /usr/lib/libTKXSDRAW.so: undefined symbol: _ZN10DrawTrSurf3GetERPKc 23:22 < fenn> probably that function doesn't exist in 6.2 23:23 < fenn> my recommendation is to install 6.3 23:23 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-51-180.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-51-180.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:24 < fenn> or else just not use whatever is using TKXSDRAW 23:24 < ybit> iircPackage: opencascade-draw 23:24 < ybit> Source: opencascade 23:24 < ybit> Version: 6.3.0.dfsg.1-2opv1 23:25 < fenn> huh 23:26 < ybit> OCCViewer.py is calling TopoDS.py which is having the issue of importing libTKXSDRAW.so 23:26 * ybit wonders why it's using py2.5 and not 2.6 23:27 < fenn> wonder why gp is calling *DRAW 23:28 < fenn> i would uninstall opencascade-draw and recompile pythonOCC 23:28 < ybit> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/about.php 23:29 < fenn> also make sure you don't have any extra copies of pythonOCC lying around in your pythonpath 23:30 < ybit> then you get this error: ImportError: No module named Display.OCCViewer 23:30 < ybit> so you need opencascade-draw 23:31 < fenn> no -draw has nothing to do with Display 23:31 < fenn> i bet it just didnt put Display in the right place 23:31 < ybit> it =? 23:31 < fenn> see pythonOCC/src/addons/Display/ 23:32 < fenn> it = setup.py install, i guess 23:32 < fenn> DRAW is a "test harness" 23:32 < fenn> (no i dont know what that means) 23:33 < ybit> ImportError: libTKTopTest.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 23:33 < ybit> /usr/lib/opencas/libTKTopTest.so 23:33 < fenn> opencas? 23:34 < ybit> ln -s /usr/lib/opencas/* /usr/lib 23:34 < fenn> why is it opencas? 23:34 < ybit> dunno 23:34 < fenn> wtf 23:34 < ybit> the error repeats 23:34 < ybit> + most of the files already existed anyway from last time 23:34 < fenn> "ln -s /usr/lib/opencas/* /usr/lib" does what exactly? 23:34 < ybit> i did this same thing earlier (see above) 23:35 < ybit> i'm *guessing* that it creates links of all those files and puts them in /usr/lib 23:35 < fenn> first of all, you don't need to do that 23:35 < fenn> secondly, i don't think it does that 23:36 * ybit couldn't find a recursive option in man, so i figured that's the way 23:36 < ybit> togetic:/usr/lib# file libTKTopTest.so 23:36 < ybit> libTKTopTest.so: broken symbolic link to `/usr/lib/opencas/libTKTopTest.so' 23:37 < ybit> that's the way to create batch symlinks, because it did tell me 'this file already exists, this_file2 already exists, etc. 23:37 < fenn> ok the ln -s seems to work 23:38 < fenn> you can check to see if it's pointing the right place with ls -l 23:38 < fenn> but still ldconfig should look in your /usr/lib/* directories anyway 23:38 < ybit> togetic:/usr/lib# ls -l libTKTopTest.so 23:38 < ybit> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 32 Sep 24 23:04 libTKTopTest.so -> /usr/lib/opencas/libTKTopTest.so 23:38 < ybit> maybe it's broken because i removed opencascade-draw 23:39 < fenn> yeah probably 23:39 < fenn> i don't have any libTKTopTest 23:39 < ybit> it is 23:39 < ybit> http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=libTKTopTest.so&mode=path&suite=unstable&arch=any 23:39 * ybit reinstalls opencascade-draw 23:39 < fenn> why? 23:40 * ybit re-uninstalls opencascade-draw :P 23:40 < fenn> it shouldn't be looking for opencascade-draw 23:40 < fenn> because you should have compiled without opencascade-draw present 23:40 * ybit was reminded of cryptographic errors after the install 23:41 < fenn> btw how long does recompiling take on that comp? 23:41 < ybit> not long 23:41 * ybit revisits compile time 23:41 < fenn> quantitative estimate please 23:42 * ybit is in need of /usr/lib/opencas/libTKTopTest.so 23:42 * ybit recompiles 23:42 < ybit> ~20secs 23:43 < ybit> real 0m1.427s 23:43 < fenn> this is pretty cool http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/meteor.php 23:43 -!- mquin [i=mike@freenode/staff/mquin] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:44 < ybit> output from build and install: http://pastebin.com/m138da76 23:44 -!- mquin [i=mike@freenode/staff/mquin] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:44 < ybit> (including time) 23:46 < ybit> who mentioned orbital speed? 23:46 < ybit> maybe that was #highaltitudes 23:46 < fenn> probably me 23:47 < ybit> * #highaltitude 23:47 < fenn> it always irks me that people think they did something by getting to 100 km altitude 23:47 < fenn> big woop 23:47 < ybit> kind of what i was saying in that one-liner email to luf-team 23:48 < fenn> "My one complaint about these is that they are just rockets with no way of sending data back."? 23:49 < ybit> yeah, they get there and no data is being transmitted back, you just shot something into outerspace, so now what? 23:49 < fenn> no, you're missing the point 23:49 < ybit> go n 23:49 < ybit> on 23:49 < fenn> there's nothing special about 100km altitude 23:50 < fenn> there's nothing special about mach 15 23:50 < fenn> but at mach 25 or so something special happens 23:50 < fenn> you're going fast enough that you never fall down 23:50 < fenn> it just so happens that you have to be at 100km altitude to not burn up at mach 25 23:51 < fenn> orbital velocity is the magical thing that makes microgravity and space development possible 23:51 < fenn> anything less is just a glorified vomit comet 23:54 < fenn> spaceship one is a scam 23:55 < fenn> spaceX falcon is not 23:56 < genehacker> redstone was a scam 23:57 < fenn> nobody ever said redstone was going to space 23:58 < fenn> "the Eisenhower administration wanted the first US satellite to be launched by a civilian-developed rocket instead of a missile derivative." 23:59 < fenn> so i guess it could have if they tried