--- Day changed Sat Oct 03 2009
00:05 < fenn> is that a sanrio thing?
00:05 < fenn> like hello kitty
00:06 < bkero> Domo-kun
00:06 < bkero> Yea
00:06 < bkero> and that's 7-11's new ad campaign
00:07 < fenn> let's put it this way.. would you be aghast if Target suddenly had a hello kitty ad campaign?
00:08 < bkero> Target used Domo-kun as their 2008 Halloween ad campaign.
00:09 < fenn> hah
00:19 < fenn> i finally figured out wtf was with the banner on ACTLAB http://www.tarvu.com/
00:33 < drazak> so uh
00:34 < drazak> if we have a big bunch of shipping containers
00:34 < drazak> will there be room for a ceramic shipping conainer?
00:34 < drazak> (aka one for ceramics, instead of science :P)
00:36 < fenn> that's the neat thing about shipping containers.. they're easy to add on incrementally
00:36 < ybit> ...if you have a crane or cherry picker
00:39 < fenn> well i think a semi truck would be more appropriate
00:40 < ybit> and just how do you plan on getting the container into and out of this truck? :)
00:41 < drazak> we could sell pottery and artwork to make money
00:41 < drazak> :P
00:41 < fenn> it sits on the back, you attach a little pair of wheels to the back
00:42 < fenn> drazak: yeah sell all the fuckups as "artwork" :0
00:42 < drazak> like, 500 pounds of dry clay is almost 2000 pounds of wet clay or something like that
00:42 < drazak> and 500 pounds of wet clay is like
00:42 < drazak> er, dry clay
00:42 < drazak> is like 120$
00:43 < drazak> say the average weight of a piece of pottery is a 1/2lb dry clay
00:43 < drazak> and it costs a buck on average to glaze the piece
00:44 < drazak> and you sell it at 15 bucks a piece, that's 13$ profit a piece
00:44 < drazak> with 1 person working 6-8 hours doing pottery you can produce on average 20 pieces a day
00:44 < drazak> that's 260 a day pure profit
00:45 < ybit> i'm going back and forth on continuing ahead with plans to build a lab here or finishing school @ upc in barcelona and creating one there, right now it's a matter of cost and how quickly i can get my equipment and a secure place to use it.
00:45 < drazak> 6 or 7 potters working 4 hours a day (aka doing science the rest) make almost a grand a day
00:46 < drazak> I can't think of many labs that go through a grand of supplies in a day
00:46 < drazak> well, some have expensive things that are much less than a grand over the spread of a few days
00:46  * ybit figures it's to get 4k+ easily in profit from selling small electric cars and especially wranglers from the junkyard
00:47 < ybit> +possible
00:47 < drazak> a day?
00:47 < drazak> a week?
00:47 < drazak> a month?
00:47 < drazak> a year?
00:47 < ybit> on each vehicle
00:47 < fenn> drazak how are you going to sell that much "art"
00:47 < drazak> and how long does each vehicle take?
00:47 < ybit> i _might_ be able to get 4 cars a year
00:47 < ybit> that's very optimistic
00:47 < fenn> or you might find yourself totally swamped with orders
00:48 < fenn> and no way to increase production
00:48 < ybit> i figured it would be a good way to make quick cash and continue on with my education elsewhere
00:48 < ybit> well, i don't really care for the university, but i do want to get away for awhile
00:48 < drazak> fenn: a store, the internet, etc, large order, but there's also the whole handmade set things where you make a little less profit but it's a whle set throw in a couple hours, trimmed in another hour over the next two days, and then fired+glazed over the next few in a total of actual work of an hour
00:49 < ybit> it would be nice to work in upc's neuroeng lab for a bit
00:49 < drazak> a set of 3 handmade bowls sells for 60$
00:49 < drazak> each bowl is tinyass
00:51 < drazak> it's an alternative way to support a lab
00:51 < ybit> not sure if i'll be be coming back to live here, which is why i'm highly considering holding off on building just yet, and using some money on acquiring equipment
00:51 < drazak> pottery and/or grants and/or welding and/or woodwork and/or electric cars and/or whatever stuff like that
00:52 < drazak> anyway I'm going to bed
00:52 < ybit> gn drazak 
00:52 < drazak> I think
00:52 < ybit> hehe
00:53 < ybit> what i had in mind was to setup a lab and a hackerspace
00:53 < ybit> both are seperate NPOs, hspace classified as educational and the other as scientific.
00:54 < drazak> well, even the lab I work at the PI has a side business
00:54 < drazak> that he runs out of the lab
00:54 < ybit> put half the property in each other's name so that one doesn't rely on the other, but are both mutually beneficial
00:54 < ybit> the lab would obviously go after grants
00:55 < ybit> while the hackerspace sufficed with donations/membership dues
00:55 < drazak> for our lab
00:55 < fenn> membership dues are not enough to run a space
00:56 < ybit> $30
00:56 < ybit> and if you have ~15, you should be okay
00:57 < ybit> this is assuming you aren't renting
00:58 < ybit> 15 members, $30/month
00:58 < fenn> not renting seems only to be possible in rural areas, where you're lucky to get 15 members
00:59 < ybit> drazak: what kind of side business does your current lab do?
00:59 < ybit> fenn: so true
01:01 < ybit> it would take time to get that kind of membership here, especially since it's so far from the city, most people wouldn't want to drive 20 minutes out of their way to the middle of nowhere it seems, but there are a few things you can do to keep them there: living quarters, food, beer, and..)
01:01 < drazak> ybit: Dr. Lee has a company that sells reagents
01:01 < ybit> drazak: link?
01:02 < drazak> I'm trying to find it
01:02 < drazak> I lost it
01:02 < ybit> np
01:03 < drazak> http://www.bmrservice.com/
01:04 < fenn> well since my other offers seem to be built on sand, if you need an expert scrounger i have ten years of experience
01:05 < drazak> that's his store
01:06 < ybit> tell him to get it working correctly under firefox or else
01:06 < drazak> ybit: told him
01:07 < drazak> like twice
01:07 < ybit> eat some lucky charms and tell him a third time :P
01:07 < drazak> rofl
01:07 < drazak> ah
01:07 < drazak> his wife is learning how to do it
01:07 < drazak> and she's nice
01:07 < drazak> so I don't want to insult her
01:12 < ybit> anyway, now i've got $1000 and i'm considering making a miller, stm, book scanner or going ahead and purchasing some of the parts needed for daewoo's conversion
01:13 < ybit> someone needs to nudge me in some direction right about now :)
01:14 < ybit> it's 1am, my mind highly malleable
01:14 < fenn> mill
01:15 < ybit> that's what i'm thinking as well
01:38 -!- flamoot [n=root@74.13.31.196] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:11 -!- amaruk [n=amaruk@p4FDC212B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:44 < bkero> THink I just ruined my rear bike wheel
02:45 < fenn> next time take the lock off first
02:47 < fenn> bkero: have you put much thought into a road worthy electric motorcycle? not just a motorized bicycle
02:48 < fenn> just been drooling @ http://www.motoczysz.com/main.php?area=home
02:49 < bkero> fenn: Yea, I've seen a lot
02:49 < bkero> Made one
02:49 < bkero> 3 lead-acid batteries, no controller
02:49 < bkero> Just a badass throttle weird setup
02:49 < fenn> the same guy built a completely new IC racing engine design and entire motorcycle from scratch
02:49 < bkero> The throttle had 3 clicks.  1 click = 1 battery, 2 clicks = 2 batteries, 3 clicks = 3 batteries
02:49 < bkero> I sat on the killacycle before it...died.
02:50 < fenn> did the guy kill himself again?
02:50 < bkero> No idea
02:50 < fenn> well i'm not so into drag racing
02:50 < fenn> turbonique pretty much stomped all over that in the 70's
02:51 < fenn> showing that once again nobody actually cares about performance
02:52 < bkero> Looks like I'm in the market for a new bike, again.
02:52 < fenn> so pretty much DC motors is it? 
02:52 < bkero> Unless I can find a 700c wheel for free
02:53 < fenn> you can undoubtedly find a wheel for ree
02:53 < fenn> there is a local bike project, you just have to find it
02:53 < bkero> Yea, most of those have 24" mountain bike wheels though
02:53 < fenn> and you don't need a new bike just for a wheel?
02:54 < fenn> you ought to be able to swap 27" rims if it matters
02:55 < bkero> New wheel is the same price as another used bike.
02:56 < fenn> it's surprising how small a 1000lb thrust peroxide rocket motor and assorted tanking is
03:00 < fenn> where's my jetpack :(  http://turbonique.tripod.com/index02.html
03:00 < bkero> Jetpacks are hard.
03:00 < fenn> yeah well what about all those other crazy things
03:01 < fenn> which are Not For Sale
03:01 < fenn> basically "what can you do with unlimited portable power"
03:02 < fenn> for a short period of time
03:02 < bkero> Anything I want
03:02 < bkero> Superconductor
03:03 < fenn> i'm thinking hydraulic exoskeleton with a high performance peroxide fueled backup pump
03:04 < fenn> damn EESTOR
03:04 -!- Utopiah_ is now known as Utopiah
03:07  * bkero is making a kotatsu tonight
03:07 < fenn> where do you do all this making?
03:07 < bkero> Well, it's a kotatsu
03:07 < bkero> So at home
03:08 < fenn> er.. nm. i thought you said kodachi
03:09 < bkero> No sir
03:09 < bkero> kotatsu is a nice home item
03:14 < katsmeow-afk> bkero: recycling center / scrap yard , i get all the bike tires i want just just for removing the rubber tires from them and returning the "clean" frames
03:14 < katsmeow-afk> i end up returning most of the rims too, since all i was after was the crank and rear sprockets
03:15 < katsmeow-afk> for your purposes, the tires are often rotted after a year, but then they are $10 at Walmart
03:16 < katsmeow-afk> so i have a 3ft pile of rims to go back to the recycler out there now
03:18 < katsmeow-afk> so i get sprockets and whatever chain and control cables, reflectors, etc i want, and he doesn't haveto go cut the rubber tires off
03:18 < bkero> I have plenty of tires
03:20 < katsmeow-afk> how do you ruin the rims? 
03:21 < bkero> This one had sealed bearings
03:21 < bkero> and a broken spoke
03:21 < katsmeow-afk> so replace the bearings and do without one spoke?
03:22 < bkero> Can't replace the bearings, I broke the seal
03:22 < bkero> They were press-fit in
03:22 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, you pound them out with a rod from the otehr side
03:23 < katsmeow-afk> same way you change front wheel bearings in a vehicle
03:23 < katsmeow-afk> (rear wheel drive only)
03:23 < bkero> I've done that before
03:24 < katsmeow-afk> k
03:24 < bkero> Press-fit bearings, needed about 2000lb/ft of force to press the outer shell in
03:24 < bkero> Never replace front wheel bearings in a toyota
03:24 < katsmeow-afk> hence pressing them back out or using a sturdy table and a small sledge
03:25 < bkero> I've got a bench vice
03:25 < bkero> and a pitman puller that I've tried using before
03:25 < katsmeow-afk> vice may make it more difficult, you don't wanna clamp the outside of where you you are trying to press a bearing outof
03:26 < bkero> I vice the spindle
03:26 < bkero> http://media.photobucket.com/image/mr2%20front%20spindle/brust_2008/Camry/Front%20Wheel%20Brg/12SpindleOut2sm.jpg
03:26 < katsmeow-afk> errrr,, if you still have the spindle in place, you aren't pressing the bearing out using any method i have ever used
03:27 < fenn> what kind of bike has cartridge wheel bearings but costs less to replace than a wheel?
03:28 < katsmeow-afk> ok, that url lists a front wheel drive car hub, what's that to do with a bike tire?
03:29 < bkero> You were referencing wheel bearings in vehicles
03:29 < katsmeow-afk> [03:24] <katsmeow-afk> (rear wheel drive only)
03:30 < bkero> Yea, but the front wheels are mostly the same
03:30 < fenn> i'm surprised i never realied it earlier but after reading altrusts.org i guess i'm an altruist
03:30 < bkero> I couldn't find a picture
03:31 < katsmeow-afk> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/l/bl219lib.htm
03:32 < katsmeow-afk> to pop the outer races out of the thing they call the "disc", you run a rod thru the "disc" and press/hammer the race out
03:32 < bkero> Yea, I've done that replacing the wheel bearings on a Grand Prix GTP before
03:32 < katsmeow-afk> i've never seen or heard of anyone trying to pull those races out
03:32 < katsmeow-afk> i know there are internal race pullers tho
03:33 < bkero> http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k15/toolmanholden/WheelBearingParts2.jpg
03:33 < katsmeow-afk> seen and heard of them used on flywheels and tranny tails, but not wheel bearings
03:34 < katsmeow-afk> so why aren't we seeing your wheel and their bearings which you cannot replace?
03:34 < bkero> Never pulled apart my tranny, but I've swapped my clutch twice
03:34 < bkero> Throw-out bearing is an easily-fit affair
03:34 < bkero> They're ball bearings inside the wheel, and I can't get them to fit back in place
03:35 < katsmeow-afk> but you said they were bad, replace them
03:35 < katsmeow-afk> $5 per bearing?
03:35 < bkero> The bearings?  THe shell is actually built into the wheel
03:35 < katsmeow-afk> shell?
03:36 < katsmeow-afk> do you have sealed ballbearings or regular bike wheel bearings?
03:36 < bkero> In the wheel assembly, there's a shaft that runs through the middle that connects to the bike frame
03:36 < bkero> AroundOn the insideOn each side of the inside of the wheel, there are two rows of ball bearings in a cavity
03:36 < bkero> The cavity is built into the wheel
03:37 < bkero> Oh wait, I have my snazzy DSLR, I can show you with a picture.
03:43 < bkero> Uploading
03:43 < bkero> The bearings have no inner races
03:44 < bkero> It's just shaft->bearings
03:47 < bkero> http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/bicycle/
03:47 < katsmeow-afk> holycrap, 7mpixels
03:48 < katsmeow-afk> er, mbytes
03:48 < bkero> 10mp camera
03:48 < katsmeow-afk> yeas,, mogrify
03:48 < bkero> It's a little old, but yea
03:48 < bkero> Too big for your connections?
03:48 < katsmeow-afk> no, it's ok
03:49 < katsmeow-afk> i'd have zoomed the camera in to the area of interest tho
03:49 < bkero> I did
03:50 < bkero> That was about 1-2 inches away
03:50 < bkero> 14-42mm lens
03:50 < bkero> I do find it weird that there's no inner shell
03:50 < katsmeow-afk> you have none with the spindle out
03:52 < katsmeow-afk> this looks like a typical bike 
03:52 < bkero> That's because it's a gigantic bitch
03:52 < bkero> I spent about four hours getting it out to try to get the freewheel off
03:53 < katsmeow-afk> http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/bicycle/pa030551.jpg  shows 3 nuts on the spindle, when you take those off, the spindle won't fall out the other side?
03:54 < bkero> I can't get the inner one off that side, gotta take it off the other
03:55 < katsmeow-afk> back the middle one up against the outer one, tighten/jamb it there, put a wrench there and one on the inner nut, it shuld come right off
03:56 < bkero> Tried that, both just spun off :/
03:56 < bkero> I'll try again
03:56 < katsmeow-afk> nother trick is to take a old nut you'll never put ona bike again, slot it in the bandsaw, screw it on,and collapse it onto the shaft with heavy vicegrips
03:57 < bkero> heh
03:58 < katsmeow-afk> i wonder what shipping two of them to you would cost
03:58 < katsmeow-afk> COD, of course, i'm dead broke in deep doo,, mean debt
03:59 < bkero> heh
03:59 < bkero> Dont worry abnpout that
03:59 < katsmeow-afk> here's me scrapping them out for sprokets : http://designerthinking.com/bikesprockets.html
04:01 < katsmeow-afk> doing it that way beats removing the carrier, which i didn't need anyhow
04:01 < bkero> nice haul
04:02  * katsmeow-afk nods ,, lucky
04:02 < katsmeow-afk> i didn't get them all at once, and they are rusty because they sat outside during the Dog Era here
04:03 < katsmeow-afk> i have the matching front wheels too
04:03 < fenn> you can de-rust them with electrolysis
04:04 < fenn> soak in washing soda solution and attach electrodes
04:04 < katsmeow-afk> or use a wire brush in a "body grinder" ?
04:05 < fenn> after the experience of having a functional machine tool i start to question whether it makes sense to scavenge stuff like sprockets if you could expend a similar amount of effort to make a jig for making an unlimited supply of them
04:05 < bkero> I can't figure out how to do the 2-nut trick
04:05 < bkero> They both just spin :/
04:05 < katsmeow-afk> i tend to agree, but these are hardened, free, available, etc
04:05 < fenn> you need special wrenches for the cones
04:06 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, he cannot lock the threaded rod down
04:06 < katsmeow-afk> standard wrenches willwork, they overlap a bit
04:06 < fenn> you loosen one nut against the other with two wrenches on the same side of the wheel
04:06 < katsmeow-afk> most likely metric, naturally
04:06 < fenn> regular wrench is too fat to fit in the flat
04:07 < katsmeow-afk> yeas,it overlaps out
04:07 < katsmeow-afk> but still grips, if you mind it
04:07 < bkero> I can't fit a wrench around the inside nut
04:07 < fenn> i guess you could grind down a regular wrench
04:07 < bkero> Not going to ruin wrench
04:07 < fenn> or grind a piece of thick sheet metal
04:07 < fenn> to proper internal diameter
04:07 < katsmeow-afk> can't fit the wrench to the nut??
04:07 < fenn> or whatever the distance between two lines is called
04:07 < katsmeow-afk> gap
04:08 < fenn> dimension?
04:08 < bkero> The inside nut
04:08 < fenn> it's 15mm
04:08 < katsmeow-afk> bkero, what is stopping you?
04:08 < bkero> katsmeow-afk: My wrenches are too fat
04:08 < fenn> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=cone+wrench&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
04:08 < katsmeow-afk> did you screw both the other nut out to the end of the rod?
04:09 < bkero> Yea
04:09 < katsmeow-afk> or, can you lock the nuts on the other side of the wheel and use them?
04:09 < bkero> Heh
04:09 < bkero> The other side with the freewheel is recessed
04:09 < bkero> and I jammed a screwdriver, some needlenose pliers, watever I could to make the other nut stay in place
04:09 < katsmeow-afk> but the threaded rod isn't, bind the two nuts over there
04:09 < fenn> you arent supposed to loosen the recessed side
04:10 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, re rust, i need a cheaper version of this : http://www.rustguy.com/www.rustguy.com/index.html
04:10 < bkero> Maybe I'm not binding the nuts correctly
04:10 < bkero> I've got two nuts on the side without the freewheel(two extra)
04:11 < bkero> Both are spinning
04:11 < fenn> are you sure they're spinning wrt the axle and not the axle itself spinning?
04:11 < bkero> The axle itself is spinning
04:11 < bkero> Trying to figure out how to have it not do that
04:12 < fenn> the two nuts are locked to each other, so to loosen them you have to apply torque to both nuts
04:12 < fenn> this typically involves two wrenches
04:12 < bkero> I have two wrenches here
04:13 < fenn> but one of them is too fat right?
04:13 < bkero> I'm not worrying about that one
04:13 < bkero> There's a nut against that one I have to remove first
04:13 < fenn> to loosen the inner nut you need to make or acquire a thinner 15mm wrench
04:13 < fenn> screwdriver isn't going to do it
04:13 < fenn> needle nose pliers won't work either
04:14 < bkero> If I can get the nut against the inner nut out
04:14 < bkero> I can just use a regular 15mm wrench
04:14 < katsmeow-afk> take both nuts off that side, put them on the otehr side, then you'll have clearance
04:14 < fenn> sigh
04:14 < katsmeow-afk> oohh,
04:14 < katsmeow-afk> that's the problem, ok
04:14 < katsmeow-afk> i thought we were further along, oops
04:14 < bkero> I added two nuts(that aren't pictured)
04:14 < bkero> to use to bind
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04:15 < katsmeow-afk> bind on the opposite side of the wheel, then you shold be able to take all the nuts off where you're working
04:15  * bkero tries that
04:15 < bkero> When binding
04:15 < bkero> I want to screw two nuts against each other
04:16 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
04:16 < bkero> THen which one do I want to hold in place?  THe inner one, our outer one?
04:16 < katsmeow-afk> either
04:16 < katsmeow-afk> or
04:16 < katsmeow-afk> the one which, when forced against, binds more
04:16 < bkero> I think the axle is going to spin, but I"ll try it
04:16 < bkero> The axle spins, and both are loosened, at least all the other times I've tried
04:17  * katsmeow-afk gives up then
04:18 < fenn> [1][2]---[3][4>-------<5][6]----  
04:18 < fenn> put wrench on 1 and 3
04:18 < fenn> if you're lucky, 4 won't move
04:18 < katsmeow-afk> nice ascii art :-)
04:19 < bkero> Where is the internal axle in that?
04:19 < fenn> axle is ----
04:19 < bkero> Ah, between the < and >
04:20 < bkero> Ok, I'll try with the binding ones on the same side as the one I'm trying to remove
04:22 < bkero> When I grab 1 and 3, and wrench, 1 and 2 just spin up the threads towards 3
04:23 < fenn> because 3 and 4 are locked tighter
04:23 < katsmeow-afk> so are 5-6 , bear against them?
04:23 < fenn> can't get a wrench on them
04:23 < katsmeow-afk> oh, recessed
04:24 < fenn> btw why are you removing the bearings?
04:24 < katsmeow-afk> got a spare nut you can slot for the 1-2 pair?
04:24 < bkero> Bearings are shot
04:24 < bkero> and I was trying to remove the center rod so I could get the freewheel off
04:25 < bkero> You're suggesting 3 nuts for binding?
04:25 < katsmeow-afk> no
04:25 < katsmeow-afk> the sloted nut visegrip approach
04:25 < bkero> Not sure if I'm familiar
04:25 < katsmeow-afk> i mentioned it 10 minutes ago
04:25 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: to prevent the vise grips from damaging the threads right?
04:26 < katsmeow-afk> and make more grip area on the shaft
04:26 < katsmeow-afk> and make use of the wedging action of the threads collapsing on each other
04:26 < fenn> i would worry about crushing a hollow axle
04:26 < katsmeow-afk> the spindle is solid
04:27 < katsmeow-afk> look at it
04:27 < bkero> axle isn't hollow
04:27 < fenn> i dare not look at a 7MB photo on this poor creature
04:27 < katsmeow-afk> it's ~3/8 dia hardened solid
04:27 < fenn> it's all i can do to keep the screen from falling off
04:27 < fenn> did i mention i'm accepting laptop donations?
04:28 < fenn> especially small ones that aren't broken
04:28 < katsmeow-afk> no desktop donation?
04:29 < fenn> well, all i really need for my computer-in-a-tub is an lcd monitor
04:29  * katsmeow-afk notes if you are lucky, you can pick up 2005 era puters for $30
04:29 < fenn> this computer was $65 brand new
04:30 < fenn> i had to buy ram and heastink separate
04:30  * katsmeow-afk nods
04:30 < fenn> cheaper to get a new mobo than try to find DDR1 RAM
04:31 < katsmeow-afk> really? i just got 10gigs of ddr for $50
04:31 < fenn> i should just finish this dumb wearable project already before my laptop dies
04:32 < katsmeow-afk> 10 gigs of any ram for $50 is a bargain, assuming one can use it
04:32 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: what size individual sticks?
04:32 < katsmeow-afk> most are 256mb , a couple 512's
04:32 < fenn> see that's no good
04:32 < katsmeow-afk> why?
04:32 < fenn> because most mobo's only have 2 slots
04:33 < katsmeow-afk> oh,, most of mine have 4
04:34 < katsmeow-afk> but i figured i'd end up using most of these in avr stuff, like as 32megx8 chips, or other projects
04:34 < katsmeow-afk> beats buying $5 flash for them all, this is 300+ individual chips
04:34 < fenn> i thought computer memory required some kind of controller chip to refresh periodically
04:35 < katsmeow-afk> sure, a counter
04:35 < bkero> Still having issues with this damn thing, argh
04:35 < fenn> how often does it need refreshing? and do you have to feed back the correct value to the chip?
04:35 < katsmeow-afk> need one for sequential read or write independant of the avr anyhow
04:36 < fenn> ah see you're already way beyond my level of jumping-in-ness
04:36 < katsmeow-afk> no, tho you could make a smart system using the avr int  and pwm outputs
04:37 < fenn> so the counter is just so it doesn't draw a lot of current refreshing everything at once?
04:37 < katsmeow-afk> making it smart means one of 2 things: you're eating up cpu clocks in your system, or you're throwing a separate atTiny chip at the problem
04:37 < fenn> bkero: i suggest setting it aside for tonight and taking it to the bike project, where they undoubtedly have more cone wrenches than you will know what to do with
04:38 < bkero> fenn: Yea, but that's tomorrow
04:38 < katsmeow-afk> you can't refersh it all at once, you refres a collum or row at a time
04:38 < bkero> and to get there I'll have to use my bike :P
04:38 < fenn> ah but it's today
04:38 < fenn> you have all day to walk there :P
04:38 < bkero> and I'm still not sure that the bearings in this are repairable
04:38 < bkero> or replacable in this wheel
04:38 < fenn> actually i bet you can still ride it somewhat
04:38 < katsmeow-afk> maybe not repairable, you can get new balls, butnot new races
04:39 < katsmeow-afk> the inner race on the shaft is hardened, but i don't believe the outer race is
04:39 < fenn> they are hardened different amounts
04:39 < fenn> i think the outer race is harder since it's not replaceable
04:40 < katsmeow-afk> maybe i am thinking of crank bearings, where the outer race is a stamped sheet common steel
04:40 < fenn> yeah those are groady
04:40 < fenn> single piece cranks
04:40 < fenn> blech
04:42 < bkero> The bearing cone on mine is actually threaded
04:43 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, to adjust play
04:43 < bkero> How much play do I want?
04:43  * bkero pulls out the micrometer
04:43 < katsmeow-afk> barely feelable
04:44 < bkero> I have about 1/4 inch right now
04:44 < katsmeow-afk> or, tighten the cone till you feel resistance to turning the shaft by hand, then back out 1/4 turn till there's no resistance
04:44 < katsmeow-afk> 1/4 inch play? sheesh!
04:48 < bkero> !!
04:48 < bkero> Got it
04:49 < fenn> you want a slightly negative amount of play (preload)
04:49 < fenn> so when the bearing is under strain it doesn't pull apart, instead there is elastic force holding it together
04:50 < katsmeow-afk> in heavy use, the slight negative preload allows to heat buildup expansion and grease to flow
04:50 < fenn> hence "slight"
04:50 < fenn> better than it bouncing around inducing shock loads at least
04:50 < fenn> no such thing as perfect after all
04:51 < katsmeow-afk> if you tighten a car front bearings, and drive the interstate for 20 min, you'll find the wheel trying to sieze
04:51 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, you want minimum momentum to build
04:51 < fenn> i've never seen a car with adjustable bearings
04:52 < katsmeow-afk> however, if you go for 100% metal-metal contact, youlose most of the benefit of lube
04:52 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, they use tapered roller bearings, which are adjustable by the nut that holds the wheel on the spindle
04:53 < bkero> pictures
04:53 < fenn> so the 'adjustment' is the torque? i mean it's not a jamb nut like on a bicycle
04:54 < katsmeow-afk> [03:32] <katsmeow-afk> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/l/bl219lib.htm
04:54  * bkero uploads pictures
04:55 < katsmeow-afk> the washer they show is keyed to not turn, the nut is castellated, the cotter holds it in place
04:56 < bkero> http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/bicycle/pa030557.jpg onward
04:57 < katsmeow-afk> to adjust, turn the wheel by hand as you tighten the nut, when overtight the wheel will slow, so back off till it spens freely, repeat more slowly, back off till you have free spin and *barely* feel slop
04:57 < katsmeow-afk> or,, if you have bad feelings, back off till it spins freely
04:57 < katsmeow-afk> You don't have permission to access /~bkero/bicycle/pa030557.jpg on this server
04:58 < bkero> Try now
04:58 < katsmeow-afk> www.goes.noaa.gov went down
05:00 < katsmeow-afk> you got it out :-)
05:00 < bkero> I did
05:00 < bkero> The recessed side wasn't that tight
05:00 < katsmeow-afk> <orchestral sounds> out work is done
05:00 < bkero> I'm not sure what to do now though
05:01 < bkero> Besides try to stick the bearing that fell out back in the right place
05:01 < bkero> It's hard because they're recessed
05:01 < bkero> If I could get the freewheel off, maybe
05:01 < bkero> But I don't have a freewheel puller tool, any clue how to do that without one?
05:01 < fenn> you should loosen the other side so you can get it apart while partially assembled
05:01 < katsmeow-afk> well, the shaft doesn't care which way it's in
05:01 < fenn> the offset does matter though, so remember where the nuts were positioned
05:02 < katsmeow-afk> why pull the freewheel if thepoint was to fix the bearings?
05:02 < bkero> fenn: Look at the cone nut, I can't fit a 15mm around it because it's rounded
05:02 < bkero> Because my freewheel skips
05:02 < bkero> Replaced the chain
05:02 < bkero> and I have a new freewheel sitting next tome
05:02 < katsmeow-afk> it's not rounded, there's 2 flats
05:02 < katsmeow-afk> oh, the thin enough wrenc problem
05:02 < bkero> Yes
05:03 < katsmeow-afk> slot nuts, place on shaft, clamp/collapse in vise, turn off the regular nut
05:03 < bkero> No vice handy
05:04 < katsmeow-afk> you said you have a bench vise
05:04 < bkero> Just moved apartments, I don't have a bench to screw it against
05:04 < katsmeow-afk> it's 5am, i need to do stuff irl
05:05 < katsmeow-afk> noaa was down due to dns errors, it's back up
05:05 < bkero> You run noaa?
05:05 < katsmeow-afk> if itmatters
05:05 < katsmeow-afk> no
05:07 < katsmeow-afk> i peroidically log snapshots of earth, so ic an , for instance, play Katrina forwards and backwards whenever i want
05:07 < bkero> Nice
05:08 < katsmeow-afk> see what goes on seasonally, year to year, see that yesterday i did not want to be off the south west coast of New Zealand
05:08 < katsmeow-afk> they had 50ft+ waves
05:08 < katsmeow-afk> a rare off-the-scale large area
05:08 < bkero> Nice waves
05:10 < fenn> that was due to an earthquake (or series of quakes)
05:10 < katsmeow-afk> err, the south west tip of NZ ?
05:11 < fenn> i could be wrong.. this is the info i'm referencing http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2009/1001.shtml
05:15 < katsmeow-afk> i am showing the event off NZ was a larger area of severe waves off Tasmania 10/1 7:14am, and by 10/2 2:15 pm it had drifted easterly and up and abated against NZ
05:16 < katsmeow-afk> the waves were back on-scale by 10/3 4:15am
05:16 < katsmeow-afk> currently the waves are still high, over a larger area of southwest NZ coast than 2 days ago
05:17 < katsmeow-afk> not as high as 2 days ago
05:17 < katsmeow-afk> the waves are worse than the two typhoons in the northweat pacific atm
05:19 < katsmeow-afk> http://designerthinking.com/temp/2009-10-03-05-14%20-%20waves.gif
05:20 < katsmeow-afk> it WAS http://designerthinking.com/temp/2009-10-02-13-14%20-%20waves.gif
05:21 < katsmeow-afk> water temp at the time was 50F, surfing wasn't adviseable
05:22 < katsmeow-afk> and the waves were washing strongly onshore
05:25 < katsmeow-afk> ok, things to do, bbl
05:54 < bkero> Bike's pieced back together
05:57 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: do you have an animated version of that wave map?
05:58 < bkero> O_o Apparently my bike will go for $250 on ebay if it's in good condition.
05:58 < bkero> Nice for finding it in a dumpster
06:46 < katsmeow-afk> fenn , nope, i have a script to play individual pics
06:46 < katsmeow-afk> noaa updates it only irratically every 6-8 hrs
06:47 < katsmeow-afk> the wave and temperature data is a commercial site that's updated more often, still no movie
06:50 < bkero> Rear wheel's pretty loose
06:50 < bkero> The bearings feel like shit, I can't pack them in evenly
06:50 < bkero> Take it to a bike coop tomorrow, see if there's anyone around with the tools and know-how to see if it's fixable
06:51 < katsmeow-afk> they should fall in and be even by themselves
06:52 < bkero> Except the ones at the top, which just fall down
06:53 < bkero> and when laid flat I can't prod them into place
06:53 < fenn> are those loose balls or is there a cage?
06:53 < katsmeow-afk> prolly loose, to allow more in there
06:54 < katsmeow-afk> but if loose, there shold be enough to fill the space tweenthe races
06:54 < fenn> well anyway you usually need some grease to get them to stick
06:54 < katsmeow-afk> ds
06:54 < katsmeow-afk> er
06:55  * katsmeow-afk nods
06:56 < bkero> I didn't really see a cage
06:56 < katsmeow-afk> are there enough balls?
06:56 < bkero> I couldn't really see a descernable pattern
06:56 < bkero> Yes, I haven't lost any of the balls
06:56 < bkero> I just can't find an even pattern to put them in
06:56 < katsmeow-afk> pattern?
06:57 < bkero> even distribution
06:57 < katsmeow-afk> if there is space, you are missing balls
06:57 < bkero> I'm not missing any, very clean, open workspace
06:57 < katsmeow-afk> there shold be enough balls that they are pretty much touching each otehr all the way round
06:57 < bkero> Yes, but they're not sitting next to each other
06:58 < bkero> They're staggered
06:58 < katsmeow-afk> i didn't say YOU lost any, but you did get it from a dumpster
06:58 < katsmeow-afk> they won't stay staggered
06:58 < bkero> There are little spikes that stick up between the half-rows
06:58 < katsmeow-afk> pics
06:58 < bkero> Tried to take some
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07:00 < bkero> Camera wouldn't autofocus in there, I didn't try to manually focus it.  Flash was a real pain up close too, that's the big black spot on the bottom.  I'll take some pics tomorrow if I tear it down again
07:01 < bkero> This wheel makes me very angry.
07:13 < katsmeow-afk> me too, i could go outside and get my paws greasy and take a pic of what i am trying to find online
07:15 < katsmeow-afk> dafgwdwed Timken lists "cageless" on every dwrged one of their dfamner webpages
07:16 < fenn> looking for this? http://www.processandpackaging.com/images/products/thumbs/P5258.jpg 
07:16 < bkero> So cold outside my bed.
07:17 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, that obviously has a cage
07:17 < fenn> of course
07:17 < katsmeow-afk> i did say "cageless"
07:18 < fenn> can you actually fit more rollers in without a cage?
07:18 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, often double the rollers/balls, and doubling the load capacity
07:18 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/bearings/productlist/roller/thrust/TaperedRollerThrust/Pages/Oscillating.aspx
07:19 < katsmeow-afk> speed rating may drop some tho, it won't be 20,000 rpm
07:20 < fenn> you won't get 20,000rpm from a tapered roller bearing anyway
07:20  * katsmeow-afk nods
07:21 < fenn> so i still don't see the advantage
07:21 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.smallparts.com.au/images/product_information/D608_FC_120.jpg
07:21 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.smallparts.com.au/images/product_information/cage_fc_108.jpg
07:22 < fenn> why can't you just have zero plus epsilon spacing between the caged rollers?
07:22 < katsmeow-afk> compare to http://www.smallparts.com.au/images/product_information/bearing_316_108.jpg
07:22 < katsmeow-afk> the number of contact points, therefor the radial load capacity, is doubled in the full complement type
07:22 < fenn> well that's just ridiculous
07:22 < katsmeow-afk> if the cage itself gets too small, it shatters, or wears thru
07:23 < katsmeow-afk> usually, small cages shatter and wreck the bearing
07:23 < fenn> the bulk of the cage is on the sides though
07:23 < fenn> in the two triangular volumes above and below the contact point
07:23 < katsmeow-afk> it's symetric, it's identical stamping or pour
07:24 < fenn> stamped is obviously not the most compact cage design
07:24 < katsmeow-afk> <shrug> either way, i have seen lotsa cracked cages, and bearings pulled due to bits of cage coming loose inside the bearing
07:24 < katsmeow-afk> poured brass is most compact, and highest prices
07:24 < fenn> do they make silicone cages? or did i make that up?
07:25 < katsmeow-afk> you made that up
07:25 < katsmeow-afk> google it
07:25 < fenn> well it seems like a good idea to me :)
07:25 < katsmeow-afk> you can pour in your own lube, of course
07:25 < fenn> pop the balls in, elasticity keeps them in
07:26 < fenn> or urethane
07:26 < katsmeow-afk> well, yeas and no, full complements are made diferently
07:26 < katsmeow-afk> see on http://www.smallparts.com.au/images/product_information/cage_fc_108.jpg , the 5 oclock positon on the outer race, there's a divot
07:27 < katsmeow-afk> there isn't one on any caged race bearings
07:27 < katsmeow-afk> oh,, you mean a rubber cage
07:27 < katsmeow-afk> heh, no
07:29 < katsmeow-afk> so bkero, you see how many balls, and their spacing, yu should have in your axle? :  http://www.smallparts.com.au/images/product_information/cage_fc_108.jpg
07:29 < katsmeow-afk> nearly touching, all the way round
07:29 < katsmeow-afk> and i didn't haveto get my paws greasy :-)
07:31 < katsmeow-afk> at most, you'd have a grand total of 1/2 ball dia space if you push all the balls together
07:31 < katsmeow-afk> if you have more space, you are missing some
07:33  * katsmeow-afk hopes bkero hasn't left for the bike shop to sugegst they check his,, well, <cough>
07:33 < fenn> apparently there is something called a spherical tapered roller bearing, looks to be something halfway between a ball and a roller http://www.timken.com/EN-US/products/bearings/productlist/roller/thrust/PublishingImages/Spherical-Roller-TSR_150.jpg
07:33 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
07:34 < katsmeow-afk> slightly diff specs compared to tapered or flat roller
07:37 < katsmeow-afk> i have sets of matching (but used) double tapered roller bearings, 8 inches OD, i cast a concrete slab in the cellar 15 yrs ago to put a large lathe on, then found rottwilers in my cellar and never did any more work there
07:37 < katsmeow-afk> got tube for the bearings, got 2 inch thick plate cut to house them and make the lathe head
07:37 < katsmeow-afk> all wasted time, money, effort
07:38 < fenn> presumably it's still there?
07:38 < katsmeow-afk> yeas
07:38 < katsmeow-afk> well, i brought the bearings upstairs
07:39 < katsmeow-afk> one of the 8 inch channel pieces i used to make a overheadlift in the driveway
07:40 < katsmeow-afk> http://designerthinking.com/images/robotics/bike%20tire%20collection.jpg
07:41 < katsmeow-afk> http://designerthinking.com/images/robotics/bearing%20collection.jpg
07:43 < katsmeow-afk> i have 2 more large bearings than those, and 4 in the 2 pillow blocks out by the rusted up Bridgeport
07:43 < katsmeow-afk> the ones outside are at least 6 inch ID
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07:44 < katsmeow-afk> those are all the *used* bearings, i have a stash of new ones as well, prolly 100's of 608z type
07:44 < katsmeow-afk> got them for pennies, skateboard type,, with the wheels, naturally
07:45 < fenn> heh
07:45 < fenn> don't try to use used skateboard bearings
07:45 < katsmeow-afk> course not
07:46 < katsmeow-afk> i did use two of the new bearings fromthe stash to repair a electric scooter motor
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16:52 < katsmeow-afk> Texas is now putting out the call to scientists: Come and get the money.
16:52 < katsmeow-afk> Texas is ready to try by investing $3 billion over the next decade in cancer research and prevention, which would make the state the gatekeeper of the second largest pot of cancer research dollars in the country, behind only the National Cancer Institute.
16:55 < drazak> NCI is lulzy
16:56 < drazak> we might get money from them though
16:56 < drazak> we immortalized some stem cells in a way that means they're implantable without cancer
16:56 < drazak> patent pending (seriously)
16:57 < katsmeow-afk> what's "preserved" haveto do with "without cancer" ?
16:58 < drazak> immortalized cells when implanted have a tendency to cause cancer
16:58 < drazak> they have no natural kill method
16:58 < drazak> a lot of immortalized cell lines are from cancers
16:58 < katsmeow-afk> oh
16:58 < katsmeow-afk> sounds wierd
16:58 < drazak> well, more like they become cancer, not cause it
16:59 < katsmeow-afk> i woldn't think that "no kill" = "multiply lots too"
17:00 < drazak> oh yeah
17:00 < drazak> they multiply faster than normal cells
17:00 < katsmeow-afk> i assume you are wrapping up  telomeres, or keeping them from falling off? how can that cause uncontroleld reproducton, since native stem cells don't?
17:00 < drazak> there's different method
17:00 < drazak> the problem with native stem cells is that after 6 or 7 passages they get bigger and rounder, and eventually stop multiplying
17:01 < katsmeow-afk> k, patented, gotcha
17:01 < katsmeow-afk> issat from errors in uncoiling and recoiling?
17:01 < drazak> there's different genes you can turn on and off and whatnot
17:01 < drazak> there's different theories, but mostly that, yeah
17:02 < drazak> you'll read a paper and it'll say it's the coiling/uncoiling and another that says it's just the structure before coiling and all that
17:02 < katsmeow-afk> beats them coiling upwrong first time and becoming a sorta mad cow variant, i spose
17:02 < drazak> mad cow is something different
17:02 < katsmeow-afk> i know
17:02 < drazak> :)
17:03 < katsmeow-afk> i was just thinking of the reverse coil
17:03 < drazak> ah right
17:03 < drazak> anyway brb cookies and bathroom
17:04 < katsmeow-afk> that dam "explosion" in August wasn't a transformer fault :
17:04 < katsmeow-afk> Rostekhnadzor director Nikolai Kutin outlined a report on the August accident at the Sayano-Shushenskaya dam and described its technical causes in chilling detail.
17:04 < katsmeow-afk> He said Saturday that part of an overstressed turbine unit snapped off and sailed into the air, starting flooding, short circuits and wreckage that crippled the plant and doomed dozens of workers in seconds.
17:09 < drazak> katsmeow-afk: btw the gene we're patenting is CDK-1 for immortalizing
17:09 < drazak> the process is the important part
17:10  * katsmeow-afk nods while munching dinner
17:11 < katsmeow-afk> farking football preemted news again
17:11 < drazak> we have some passage 12 hMSCs that we immortalized with cdk-1
17:13 < katsmeow-afk> have you been able to immortalise non-embryonic cells?
17:13 < drazak> those are non-embryonic
17:13 < drazak> only ES's are embryonic
17:14 < drazak> these are from the mesenchyme or bonemarrow
17:14 < katsmeow-afk> ah
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17:14  * katsmeow-afk is not a biologist
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17:15 < katsmeow-afk> i been outside stretching the roof over the driveway, i are pooped
17:15 < katsmeow-afk> and found out i had anotehr bad 300gig drive, one i have never even used
17:16 < drazak> doa
17:16 < katsmeow-afk> i thoughtit might be a cable error, but the 2nd drive is testing fine ont he same cable
17:18 < katsmeow-afk> someone suggested pulling the bios battery on the Dell 4600's to getthem to see new drives, that did the trick, Dell has hobbled the bios to not run auto or manual drive detections, removing the cell lets it go dead, and it works now
17:22 < genehacker> http://www.elektor.com/news/world-champion-of-computer-cooking.1087429.lynkx?utm_source=UK&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news
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18:30 < drazak> fenn: your email server sucks
18:30 < drazak> :D
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20:05 < kanzure_> huh so jata is real
20:05 < kanzure_> also ed boyden is pretty neat in person
20:21 < ybit> http://www.lwca.org/library/articles/
20:23 < genehacker> did you tell him about what we want to do?
20:23 < kanzure_> no
20:24 < kanzure_> but i'm somehow now responsible for openstim
20:24 < kanzure_> he says he has a lab student finishing up a project on openstim and is willing to let me eat the remains or whatever
20:25 < genehacker> call me when you turn it into simstim
20:55  * ybit wants to know where the papers are on design&fabrication of cvd reactors
20:58 < ybit> so far, only result is a patent: http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=I-qRAAAAEBAJ
20:58 < ybit> "Apparatus for fabrication of thin films Niklas Bondestam 
21:04 < genehacker> PLEASE REFER TO EXTRACTING USEFUL INFORMATION FROM PATENTS
21:13 < ybit> genehacker: please search for netiquette :P
21:13 < ybit> all caps is a no no
21:13 < ybit> anyway, what are you referring to?
21:27 < ybit> finally, had been looking for this paper for awhile: Development of meso-scale machine tool (mMT) systems
21:27 < ybit> http://micromanufacturing.org/uploads/publications/vogler2002mmt.pdf
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21:33 < ybit> "Among the prototypes already built is a shoebox size, three-axis CNC milling machine, programmable in G code and driven with a Delta Tau controller."
21:34 < ybit> ^ the quote that started the search, search hasn't ended, still reading to see if this is that machine
21:35 < ybit> yup
21:36 < ybit> "The input to the MCU is a standard part program in G-code that can be either manually programmed or generated by post-processing the Cutter Location (CL) data file using a CAD/CAM system."
21:37 < ybit> i see a lot of results, but no discussion on the design of the system
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21:48 < ybit> that same guy also wrote CAD data visualization for machining simulation using the STEP standard: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/unsorted/CAD%20data%20visualization%20for%20machining%20simulation%20using%20the%20STEP%20standard.pdf
21:51 < ybit> http://micromanufacturing.org/index.php
21:53 < ybit> http://micromanufacturing.org/oneproject.php?projid=10 ;; still no papers or details :\
21:54 < ybit> http://micromanufacturing.org/uploads/publications/microfactory1.pdf :: "Development of an automated microfactory: Part 1 - microfactory architecture and sub-systems development"
21:54 < ybit> part 2: http://micromanufacturing.org/uploads/publications/microfactory2.pdf
21:55 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-32-184.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:56 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
21:59 < genehacker> http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2009/09/28/chew_on_this_enzyme.php
21:59 < genehacker> this is cool
22:18 < ybit> how much are we talking for a Physik Optex Pro ArF excimer laser?
22:18 < ybit> I think physik was ovetaken by coherent, and the aren't releasing prices on their site 
22:23 < genehacker> huh
22:25 < ybit> s/the/they
22:25 < ybit> we were discussing prices of lithography, oh, so many months ago. it shouldn't cost thousands of dollars
22:26 < ybit> you can get finer detail with stm litho for a few hundred
22:26 < genehacker> but it's slow
22:28 < ybit> yeah, but more precise, and it's not like this is for industrial use
22:31 < genehacker> what do you want to lithograph?
22:43 < ybit> build things
22:43 < ybit> what do you want to do with milling machine, or a welder? use them :P
22:44 < ybit> wish there were more details on the micro-milling machine above
22:46 < genehacker> above where?
22:46 < genehacker> what material would you like to lithograph?
22:49 < ybit> was afk just now, and genehacker, you weren't connected when i posted links, i'll copy/paste in a PM for you
22:51 < ybit> re: 22:46 < genehacker> what material would you like to lithograph?
22:51 < ybit> i don't know yet
22:56 < genehacker> thanks for the links
22:56 < ybit> np
22:56 < genehacker> interesting that they're doing milling with voice coils
22:56 < ybit> sent an email to a few of those guys, hoping to hear back, since the details of their setup were sparse
23:00  * ybit has been looking for instructions on how to any of thse methods cheaply: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanolithography#Other_nanolithography_techniques