--- Day changed Wed Dec 02 2009 00:03 < fenn> can i embed videos in openoffice powerpoint? 00:04 < fenn> or animated gifs? 00:15 < ybit> i'm going to guess yess 00:15 < ybit> #openoffice ? 00:16 < ybit> gots to love how the e key is stuck the first night, grr 00:18 < kanzure> fenn: videos, yes. gifs i wouldn't expect to work 00:29 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:34 < fenn> anyone on windows? 00:35 < fenn> could please verify if this works in $DEFAULT_WINDOWS_MOVIE_PLAYER? http://fennetic.net/irc/squirrel_tracker.flv 00:37 < QuantumG> ya need third party software to play flvs on windoze. 00:37 < genehacker2> no 00:37 < fenn> poop 00:37 < genehacker2> what is it? 00:37 < fenn> well what codec does windows like? 00:37 < QuantumG> plays for me in third party software 00:38 < fenn> i dont trust anything to be installed 00:38 < QuantumG> right, so make a wmv 00:38 < fenn> i mean i dont expect it to be there when i need it 00:38 < QuantumG> or an avi 00:38 < fenn> so its just the format not the codec? 00:38 < QuantumG> or an mpg 00:39 < genehacker2> http://xkcd.com/ 00:39 < QuantumG> well the codec you used for flv is "flash video 1" .. so clearly that's not gunna be around :) 00:39 < QuantumG> an mpg will play just about anywhere. 00:40 < QuantumG> but if you really want peons to look at it, put it on youtube ;) 00:40 < fenn> i want it in the powerpoint file 00:40 < fenn> noboy said this was optimal 00:41 < QuantumG> don't care about size? 00:42 < genehacker2> I think there's away to put .flv's in powerpoint 00:43 < genehacker2> no there isn't 00:43 < genehacker2> convert it to .avi 00:43 < fenn> ok try again? http://fennetic.net/irc/squirrel_tracker.avi 00:44 * fenn notes that the conversion was done at 00:38 and the rest of the time was waiting for the upload to finish 00:45 < genehacker2> no 00:45 < genehacker2> but supposedly you can put avi into powerpoint 00:45 < fenn> "no" what? 00:46 < genehacker2> it doesn't work 00:46 < fenn> rawr 00:48 < genehacker2> there's away to put youtube videos into powerpoint 00:48 < genehacker2> without any add ins 00:49 < genehacker2> http://jennylu.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/youtube-into-powerpoint-wikihow-has-advice/ 00:52 < fenn> if only ssh were correct: 52% 2208KB 1.2MB/ 00:52 < genehacker2> you might be able to put a webpage on your usb drive that emulates youtube 00:52 < fenn> um no thanks 00:52 < genehacker2> and have powerpoint open that 00:53 < genehacker2> just convert it to .swf 00:55 < genehacker2> or figure out a format that will play in excel 00:55 < genehacker2> *powerpoint 00:58 < fenn> egad.. ronja has done a 170km free space optical link 00:59 < fenn> all these ham call signs sound/look the same 01:00 < fenn> what is the fucking point 01:12 < fenn> ronja is showing movies of raytraced parts spinning http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/ 01:15 < fenn> i love how they automatically include the calculated mass of the brick chimney 01:17 < fenn> grr so jealous http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/hardware_1.png 01:31 < fenn> units 'exp(1)' 01:31 < fenn> Definition: 2.7182818 01:32 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:46 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:46 < kanzure> hey jason 01:47 < kanzure> still on for thursday? 01:52 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-98-234-218-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:54 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 04:28 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-46-67.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:59 -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:09 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-46-67.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:12 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:13 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-46-67.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:51 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:56 -!- genehacker2 [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:06 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:16 -!- Xeones [n=Xeones@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:16 -!- Xeones [n=Xeones@cpe-68-175-67-66.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #hplusroadmap [] 10:20 -!- wrldpc2 [n=benny@ool-ad03fe34.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:43 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-141-52.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:50 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/ 11:10 < kanzure> hm it's snowing in dallas 12:18 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:30 < bkero> SNowing here soon 12:45 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:08 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r a59ae6c /doc/presentations/hplus-summit-2009/outline: an old outline for the h+ summit 2009 talk on how to make a civilization seed 13:14 < kanzure> hm i keep forgetting how to set stickybit 13:23 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r d140a12 /thirdparty/graphsynth.py: update graphsynth to work with gxml files without canvas objects 13:39 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r d8e940d /thirdparty/graphsynth.py: fix graphsynth output for arcs 14:07 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:19 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:29 < fenn> do i know Chris Pearson? http://gingery.wordpress.com/ 14:35 < fenn> hm or is it jessica ginger/charlesworth 14:36 < CIA-33> skdb: kanzure * r 83b1e90 /geom/geom.py: update geom.py to not complain when you load !part 14:45 < fenn> hmm. "Just realised that being 30 is about just saying "yup I'm going back to California! no matter what!l How should/can I make it happen?" 14:46 < fenn> maybe i have some sort of old-person virus 14:46 < fenn> that makes me want to go to california 14:49 < bkero> I would not like to go back to california. :( 14:50 < fenn> you aren't 30 yet 14:52 < fenn> kevin kelly is into lifelogging? http://www.meetup.com/quantifiedself/ 14:54 < kanzure> steve keeps yapping about the "quantified self" people in california 14:55 < fenn> "the Intellectual Implosion of Kevin Kelly" 14:56 < kanzure> kk.org is why i know you 14:57 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@216-54-230-114.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:57 < kanzure> hey jason 15:02 < kanzure> huh ddclient works for zoneedit 15:05 < fenn> what's that some windows band-aid? 15:06 < fenn> oh it's dyndns.. what was the firewall thing? zonealarm? 15:15 < fenn> rofl http://kk.org/ct2/Socialven.jpg 15:38 < kanzure> hi futuresoon 15:38 < futuresoon> hey kanzure 15:38 < futuresoon> i'm a drupal developer. that's what i do 15:38 < kanzure> right, so, replab web stuff 15:38 < futuresoon> right 15:39 < kanzure> i'm not sure drupal is a good idea considering the code base we already have 15:39 < futuresoon> it may be a stretch but, what about rdf? 15:39 < kanzure> why not use what we have 15:39 < futuresoon> well i still need to look at what you have 15:39 < kanzure> :) 15:39 < futuresoon> and i do agree it shouldn't be another instructables 15:40 < futuresoon> it should actually progress the automation concept 15:40 < kanzure> do you know about apt-get? 15:40 < futuresoon> i use ubuntu 15:40 < kanzure> skdb is apt-get 'cept for hardware 15:40 < futuresoon> yeah i love the concept. i've been reading 15:40 < kanzure> so, the server is a front-end to skdb 15:40 < kanzure> (it's all crammed into web.py) 15:40 < kanzure> it literally loads up opencascade and skdb in the background 15:40 < kanzure> as python modules 15:41 < kanzure> i stayed away from mod_php and mod_python for obvious reasons i hope 15:41 < kanzure> reloading opencascade on each page request.. bad voodoo 15:41 < futuresoon> i guess that rules out django? 15:41 < kanzure> nope, django was a candidate IMHO 15:41 < kanzure> but i tried it 15:41 < kanzure> i was writing "djangit", a git wiki for django 15:42 < kanzure> http://github.com/kanzure/djangit 15:42 < kanzure> but i started to realize i hated django 15:42 < kanzure> so now web.py is the main candidate i think 15:42 < kanzure> er 15:42 < kanzure> not web.py the library, but the code in skdb.git 15:42 < kanzure> it runs off of cherrypy. basically you just drop in the skdb classes and it makes a web server out of them 15:42 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/web/web.py 15:42 < kanzure> http://cherrypy.org/ 15:43 < futuresoon> i'm still learning python. drupal is my main jam. not sure how much help i'll be able to be 15:43 < kanzure> it's pretty far along 15:43 < kanzure> there's no paypal integration yet 15:43 < futuresoon> yeah that's the type of thing drupal makes simple 15:43 < kanzure> yes i'm sure it's simple 15:43 < futuresoon> i see that the longer term roadmap for these types of things is in rdf? 15:44 < kanzure> but i'm not so sure about using multiple platforms 15:44 < kanzure> well not quite rdf. there's something we've been using called "yaml" 15:44 < futuresoon> i think i read that at the oskamak wiki? 15:44 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb-packages/screw/metadata.yaml 15:44 < kanzure> oscomak is paul fernhout's attempt at convincing me to use rdf and his triples language :) 15:44 < kanzure> but it's yet-another-data-storage-format 15:45 < kanzure> yaml is for serializing objects into and out of memory, in a human-readable format 15:45 < futuresoon> i see 15:45 < kanzure> this is why i'm cautious about multiple platforms 15:45 < kanzure> we should all speak the same languages 15:45 < kanzure> drupal is great, and i was originally a php programmer guy 15:46 < kanzure> (i was really turned off by phpnuke though. i guess i'm old) 15:46 < kanzure> fenn: are you around? 15:47 < kanzure> i need to hop a bus, and fenn is able to answer various dev questions in the mean time 15:47 < fenn> ya 15:47 < futuresoon> cool 15:47 < fenn> i think drupal django and friends are too complicated and heavy 15:48 < futuresoon> fenn: what about if drupal or whatever were just outputting yaml style metadata 15:48 < fenn> that doesn't make any sense 15:48 < fenn> drupal is a web framework 15:48 < futuresoon> you're familiar with rdfa? 15:49 < fenn> i know what rdf is, and considered using it (maybe i will) 15:49 < fenn> i 15:49 < fenn> i'm no rdf wizard though 15:49 < futuresoon> well right there in the html markup of a drupal page could be rdf that a user generated by filling out forms 15:50 < futuresoon> drupal 7 will output rdf automatically and drupal core will be better suited when drupal 7 comes out in general, but i've made queryable rdf triple stores in drupal 6 15:50 < fenn> what is the "a" in rdfa? 15:50 < futuresoon> i forget 15:51 < fenn> filling out forms is not practical 15:51 < futuresoon> "in attributes" 15:51 < fenn> the data is way too complex and non-standard to be worth making forms for people to fill out 15:51 < fenn> this is why i didnt go with a relational database 15:51 < fenn> they are focused on tables and data that is essentially similar 15:52 < futuresoon> well i think the thinking was that it's easy to create and map forms to rdf when your'e doing it in drupal 15:52 < fenn> people keep telling me to make a wizard that dummies can follow to create anything, but i just dont see it happening 15:52 < futuresoon> so arbitrary data structures are less of a problem 15:52 < futuresoon> that wizard is cck http://drupal.org/project/cck 15:53 < futuresoon> or http://drupal.org/project/rdfcck 15:53 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@216-54-230-114.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54 -!- Netsplit zelazny.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: nsh, bct 15:54 -!- Netsplit over, joins: bct 15:54 -!- nsh [i=sbp@59.176.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:55 < fenn> ugh why can't they just link to the youtube url for these tutorial videos 15:56 < futuresoon> i built this a couple days ago before i knew there were people on replab.org working already http://replab.sigmanode.com 15:56 < futuresoon> it uses cck 15:56 < futuresoon> to make autocomplete forms 15:57 < fenn> that is what we pejoratively refer to as 'wiki bullshit' :) no offense 15:57 < futuresoon> well if you map it to RDF is what i'm saying 15:57 < futuresoon> anyway some of it depends the timeframe. a lot of this is going to come online better than it is now in a couple months whether anyone here works on it or not 16:05 < futuresoon> afk 16:06 < fenn> well i dont get it 16:08 -!- drazak_ [n=drazak@drazak.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:08 < Utopiah> futuresoon: are you at http://openfarmtech.org/ ? 16:09 -!- drazak [n=drazak@drazak.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11 < fenn> i think the point everyone's been missing all along is that there's plenty of content out there, but it's all in terrible formats like plain text and images buried in some cms database 16:12 < fenn> web forms like this just encourage lazy shoddy contributions i think 16:13 < fenn> "look it displays without errors, i must have done it correctly" 16:15 < futuresoon> fenn: i don't think everyone should be able to haphazardly enter it (unless the community of people who can do it grows fast enough that that's worthwhile) 16:15 < futuresoon> but it does seem to make sense that anybody should be able to use it, whether they're just reading instructions visually or not. more eyes makes for shallower bugs, that type of thing 16:16 < futuresoon> Utopiah: i've been lurking/reading their weblog for a while, haven't posted 16:16 < Utopiah> futuresoon: ok, but I mean you are not on-site 16:16 < futuresoon> no 16:17 < fenn> futuresoon: what's wrong with just letting users edit the rdf directly? (besides that its a visual clusterfuck) 16:18 < futuresoon> the major problem with rdf unlike in yaml is that presumably a lot of the benefit in rdf eventually comes from using specific classes that not just anybody is going to know to input from examples. i mean i don't know how interoperable various yaml datasets ever get 16:18 < fenn> how do you discover what the correct rdf class to use is? 16:19 < futuresoon> this might be the type of thing that i should try and figure out what you guys have already done and whether there's even something i can envision in drupal/rdf that has any benefits---these are just general benefits i'm talking about in a general way 16:19 < futuresoon> fenn: when someone implements an rdf ontology that you like, you just map all your existing data to it, or other people can take your data and do that 16:20 < fenn> kanzure always talks about not "putting a gun to everyone's head" to make them use your ontology.. 16:20 < futuresoon> i think that happened when google released their own ontology recently for people, products, etc.---the rdf community was like "that already exists" and just made their own mapping 16:20 < futuresoon> fenn: absolutely 16:20 < futuresoon> rdf is a multiplicity of worldviews on what's the best ontology 16:21 < futuresoon> anyway, i wouldn't try to do a drupal rdf implementation other than as proof of concept before drupal 7 comes out in a few months anyway 16:21 < futuresoon> i originally came to kanzure like "i'm a drupal dev. what can i do" 16:21 < futuresoon> now i'm seeing rdf (from something i read on oscomak) looks promising here 16:21 < fenn> heh 16:21 < futuresoon> but the real first thing for me is to start seeing what is up in this project that you already have going 16:21 < fenn> i keep telling paul to just use rdf, but he's stubborn because he invented it first, or something 16:21 < futuresoon> heh 16:21 < futuresoon> is paul a yaml guy? 16:22 < fenn> no 16:22 < futuresoon> paul is kanzure? 16:22 < QuantumG> fenn: got a link to that google ontology? 16:22 < fenn> he came up with something called 'pointrel' in the 1980's 16:22 < fenn> paul fernhout is a guy who writes long winded emails on the openmanufacturing list 16:22 < fenn> he wrote oscomak 16:23 < futuresoon> ahh i see 16:23 < fenn> or talked about writing it at least 16:23 < futuresoon> i came to all this stuff first through arduino and then openfarmtech. i still don't have a lot of manufacturing experience apart from soldering open source chargers for ipods 16:23 < fenn> but he got distracted with pointrel 16:24 < fenn> yeah i had a revelation when i built ladyada's usbtinyisp 16:24 < fenn> "you mean i can download hardware?" 16:24 < futuresoon> apt-get :-) 16:25 < fenn> apt-get was later, when i was thinking about openfarmtech 16:25 < fenn> it seemed marcin was making something like GNU 16:25 < fenn> but there could be many different "technology distributions" 16:26 < fenn> and of course the thing that made linux not impossible to use was a package manager 16:26 < fenn> otherwise you were constantly fiddling around with little details 16:27 < fenn> kits should be pre-vetted to make sure they "just work" 16:27 < fenn> so i came up with a way to describe what works with what 16:28 < futuresoon> do you think you could describe what a mock yaml entry for some random thing might be? 16:28 < fenn> it's not as simple as with software though, because you can't just instantly instantiate any package at zero cost 16:28 < futuresoon> naturally 16:28 < fenn> sure 16:28 < futuresoon> i like marcin's phrase of "scrap metal plus labor" 16:28 < fenn> meh 16:28 < futuresoon> marketing BS? maybe :-P 16:28 < fenn> everything is just matter energy and information, but saying that doesn't tell you how to do it 16:28 < futuresoon> sure 16:29 < fenn> it is something you dont really understand until you make stuff from scratch though 16:29 < futuresoon> bill of materials sounds like one thing where you'd want standard data 16:30 < futuresoon> is there a concept of "bill of materials" in this? 16:30 < fenn> that's why it's so easy for consumers to get attached to a brand or style.. it's something magical, not just a series of movements someone made at some point in time 16:30 < fenn> yes, sort of 16:30 < fenn> bill of materials as traditionally stated is more like a shopping list 16:31 < fenn> we want to reference the actual packages required to include 16:31 < futuresoon> dependency management, sure 16:31 < QuantumG> so does skdb include a list of required skills and skill levels? 16:31 < fenn> like an electrolytic capacitor; i dont want to just say 'buy this part number' i want to describe what it really is enough that you could make it from scratch if necessary 16:32 < futuresoon> fenn: okay but if it's an integrated circuit, you just include a part number? 16:32 < fenn> QuantumG: not yet; never came to any good conclusions on how to do that unambiguously 16:32 < fenn> futuresoon: yes but remember not all IC's are black boxes 16:32 < fenn> do you know about opencores? 16:32 < fenn> i can instantiate an 8051 processor on any fpga chip 16:32 < QuantumG> ya.. it's an interesting problem.. but certainly being able to say "intermediate welding skills required" would be handy. 16:33 < futuresoon> fenn: that's interesting and i'd like to hear more about that at some point, but it sounds like a judgment call whether to buy it or make it 16:33 < futuresoon> i mean what's faster? what's reasonable 16:33 < fenn> QuantumG: there was talk with the fab academy about providing skill training certificates for people who completed their course 16:33 < fenn> futuresoon: depends... :) 16:34 < futuresoon> fenn: especially if you could include a link to an open source manufacturer, you could support that enterprise, create advertising for peoples' open source business models, save people time 16:34 < fenn> the idea is to define a preferences vector to weight different costs 16:34 < fenn> yep 16:34 < futuresoon> i believe in multi-dimensional analysis :-) 16:35 < fenn> the point is there's no one true answer 16:35 < fenn> it depends on a person's goals/values and circumstances 16:35 < fenn> shipping is really expensive in sweden for example 16:35 < futuresoon> so you want to advertise a critical path not even for most people, but just the plurality of people 16:35 < futuresoon> or put your energy there etc 16:36 < QuantumG> and yeah, you should be able to say: skill(stick welding, intermediate) || skill(mig welding, intermediate) || skill(tig welding, beginner) for something that's easier to do with tig than with stick or mig. 16:36 < fenn> er. it would calculate the critical path on an individual basis, depending on your preferences and circumstances 16:36 < fenn> hopefully we can fudge some positive network effects into the calculation 16:36 < futuresoon> QuantumG: one potential with RDF is that someone could make a new instance of the web stack and map their own answers to say just that 16:38 < fenn> conversely i'd like to propose inferring skill sets from projects one has previously completed 16:38 < fenn> it's not a one to one mapping though 16:38 < fenn> i mean you could have tig welded it but that doesn't mean you're an intermediate stick welder 16:39 < QuantumG> yeah, for example you might have taken on the project but gotten someone else to do that skill 16:39 < fenn> so, how do i make pretty pictures of these ideas? this is what i'm wrestling with today 16:39 < fenn> about the closest thing i have is stuff like http://designfiles.org/lab/techtrees/Terran_Tech_Tree.jpg 16:40 < QuantumG> just having the required skills in your BOM would be an improvement over most kits that use prose to describe the required skills. 16:41 < fenn> http://designfiles.org/lab/fenn/pngs/zerg_tree.png 16:42 < fenn> i'd love to create those on the fly with graphviz and real technology 16:43 < fenn> have to build the db first though, which apparently is harder than it looks 16:43 < fenn> chicken and egg problem 16:43 < futuresoon> design choices that you won't be able to undo? 16:44 < fenn> getting anyone to contribute without already having impressive graphics 16:44 < fenn> getting motivated about a project that you've been talking about for years and has gone nowhere 16:44 < futuresoon> so what stops this from being something that can be part of a major drupal install? 16:45 < futuresoon> the data structures are already arbitrary YAML type stuff right? 16:45 < fenn> i dont want to have to deal with heavyweight software, that's all 16:45 < fenn> opencascade is bad enough, i'm actually thinking about dropping it despite the months invested in figuring it out 16:45 < futuresoon> second time you've mentioned that. i'll look up what that is 16:46 < fenn> http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/occ 16:46 < fenn> large part of the problem is there is no open source cad format or program 16:47 < fenn> openscad is interesting 16:47 < fenn> in the end we will probably use a big mishmash of stuff 16:48 < fenn> alibre (not Free), brl-cad, blender, openscad, AoI, heekscad 16:48 < fenn> i dont really get why google hasn't open sourced sketchup 16:48 < fenn> now i am rambling 16:49 < futuresoon> :-) 16:50 < futuresoon> yeah i just need to see what's already in skdb. for bills of materials, and dependency management between projects, rdf seems to make sense. obviously the CAD stuff if that's your data it doesn't benefit from having people fill out forms 16:51 < futuresoon> what i had envisioned was instructables with dependency management and links (which could be monitored as to whether they were dead) to places to buy the bills of materials if you couldn't make them 16:52 < futuresoon> you could state what materials you already have and filter everything by prerequisites you meet 16:53 < fenn> remember i said it wasn't like software - you dont want to require a specific version of a thing (a certain model of milling machine for example) 16:53 < futuresoon> right, well each node could have revision tracking 16:53 < fenn> defining non-specific requirements turns out to be difficult 16:53 < fenn> no you miss the point 16:53 < fenn> it could be a router or a VMC or a bridgeport; they all perform adequately 16:53 < futuresoon> right so you're saying if there's 5 versions of something, how do you know of the various combinations and permutations which one's good anymore 16:53 < fenn> i dont want to have to buy/build a router if i already have a VMC to do the job 16:54 < QuantumG> so will your db include the kinds of tests a part needs to pass before it is integrated? 16:54 < fenn> so this is why all the process/technique functionality stuff 16:55 < fenn> QuantumG: more like guides, like the debian lint or whatever it's called 16:55 < fenn> lintian 16:56 < fenn> futuresoon: there's not a lot of data in the system yet, so the format is still flexible.. this is why i find it hard to tell people what to do 16:56 < futuresoon> yeah 16:56 < futuresoon> fenn: okay so i'm having an RDF thought 16:56 < fenn> but then they send me stuff and it's all wrong :( 16:57 < futuresoon> what if you had a data structure that says "isDependentOn" and also "replacesDependencyOn" 16:57 < fenn> so i end up rewriting all the data and spending about as much time as doing it myself from scratch 16:57 < futuresoon> anyway i could see how this stuff gets complicated 16:58 -!- jasonwohlfahrt [n=chatzill@cpe-72-179-52-26.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:59 < futuresoon> fenn: are you familiar with SPARQL? 16:59 < futuresoon> you said you know about RDF a little? 17:00 < futuresoon> cause all these contingencies sound like the real apt-get is the SPARQL query and you're just modifying web forms so that the SPARQL query you get will handle all these eventualities 17:02 < futuresoon> is that something that's possible? 17:04 < fenn> SPARQL is just SQL for RDF right? 17:05 < futuresoon> basically 17:05 < fenn> then no 17:05 < futuresoon> so if a VNC claimed to replace a dependency of a router in a module, it could say so 17:05 < fenn> yes 17:05 < futuresoon> and presumably you'd just include anything out of the tools you already have that replaces any of the module's dependencies 17:06 < futuresoon> where a module would be the SPARQL query without replacing 17:06 < fenn> right 17:06 < futuresoon> iow, the actual module is to look at what you have and replace its dependencies with things those things where it can 17:06 < fenn> but, not all the data is explicit, there will have to be some intermediate calculations to figure out what is possible, which is where things get "interesting" 17:06 < futuresoon> any examples of that? 17:06 < fenn> as engineers we love to make everything modular and black boxy 17:06 < futuresoon> i mean obviously that makes sense but something concrete 17:07 < kanzure> back. reading. 17:07 < futuresoon> hey kanzure 17:07 < kanzure> thanks fenn for picking up where i slacked off 17:07 < futuresoon> kanzure: the short version is that i'm trying to envision whether RDF isn't the perfect thing for this 17:07 < futuresoon> and what your thoughts might be on that 17:07 < fenn> rdf has the nice quality of being infinitely extended 17:07 < fenn> unfotunately it's a pain in the ass to edit 17:08 < kanzure> http://replab.sigmanode.com makes no sense to me 17:08 < futuresoon> kanzure: i wasn't on the google group yet 17:08 < futuresoon> so i was just "starting anywhere" as they say 17:08 < futuresoon> i had no idea real package handling was already underway 17:08 < fenn> the google group hasn't come to any conclusions yet 17:09 < fenn> the replab group i mean 17:09 < kanzure> 16:21 < futuresoon> i originally came to kanzure like "i'm a drupal dev. what can i do" <-- oh. i read it more like "i'm a drupal dev. everyone convert to drupal now! because i know how to use it" 17:09 < futuresoon> i can see that too, but what i'm saying is, i was just trying to get a replab.org community begun so they could start selling their CEB presses and getting some instructables "wiki bullshiTt" so to speak 17:10 < kanzure> futuresoon: i am not paul. paul fernhout is http://pauldfernhout.net/ and i'm http://heybryan.org/ 17:10 < futuresoon> i much prefer real package management if that's technologically feasible 17:10 < futuresoon> kanzure: i see that now 17:10 < fenn> we have packages in git repositories that you can automatically sync/download 17:10 < fenn> kanzure: i havent actually tried skdb-get.py yet 17:10 < fenn> but i suppose it works 17:11 < kanzure> futuresoon: mock yaml entries are available, like http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb-packages/screw/metadata.yaml for instance 17:11 < fenn> btw why is VOICED in there? 17:12 < kanzure> futuresoon: it would calculate the critical path dynamically. that's what all this dependency management stuff is about. 17:12 < kanzure> QuantumG: yeah there's a dependency resolution example floating around in the unit tests folder (stupid, i know) based off of booleano's syntax 17:14 < futuresoon> kanzure: so "name" "functionality" and "parts" might be some basics? 17:16 < futuresoon> parts being the dependencies which might be other yaml files? 17:16 < kanzure> futuresoon: part of the problem with instructables is that the instructions suck. so we were working on a way to fix that; think rendering instructions to 3D animations, text, graphics, etc. 17:16 < fenn> parts is the stuff that is in the package 17:16 < kanzure> futuresoon: you can check out the metadata.yaml file to see dependencies 17:16 < fenn> a materials package might have no parts at all 17:17 < futuresoon> oh, yup. i see the word dependencies now 17:17 < kanzure> futuresoon: oh you were replied to my messages. heh. i'm still not caught up yet 17:17 < futuresoon> kanzure: and rdf was not selected because it's easier to manually edit yaml than rdf? 17:17 < futuresoon> kanzure: heh no worries 17:18 * fenn pouts 17:18 < kanzure> fenn: what's wrong? 17:18 < fenn> he's asking you why you decided all the things i decided 17:18 < fenn> maybe i am just overly sensitive to this 17:18 < futuresoon> fenn: well it was your answer. it's a good answer 17:19 < futuresoon> hey, there's no doubt that rdf is harder to manipulate than yaml 17:19 < futuresoon> i'm just thinking interoperability in an alleged future of rdf that can't be proven will ever happen 17:19 < fenn> i was originally going to do alternative xml syntax (SLiP) 17:19 -!- genehacker [i=genehack@wireless-128-62-103-189.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19 < futuresoon> ok let me look that up 17:19 < kanzure> story time 17:20 < kanzure> the other week i was involved in a group called 3 day startup 17:20 < kanzure> so i spent the weekend not sleeping and doing lots of coding 17:20 < fenn> http://slip.sourceforge.net/ 17:20 < kanzure> and i was on a team with some other programmers 17:20 < futuresoon> fenn: yup i see it 17:20 < kanzure> and after talking to see what our shared skillset was, and showing them some code i had prototyped quickly, 17:20 < kanzure> they all started to ask me why we shouldn't just use a mysql database 17:20 < kanzure> (ok, not all at once, but just randomly over the weekend) 17:21 < kanzure> i don't know how to explain this 17:21 < kanzure> but people seem to fixate on particular tools? 17:21 < fenn> it's called mind share 17:21 < kanzure> when i was doing php work in 2003, i would write the same lines of php over and over again to query a mysql db 17:21 < kanzure> but i was young and stupid, so it's forgivable 17:21 < kanzure> and everyone who was a "web designer" just stole templates from other websites 17:22 < futuresoon> i never write mysql so i'm not as good at it as a web developer should be 17:22 < fenn> once you start using a tool a lot, you start thinking in terms of that tool 17:22 < kanzure> because that's what they knew how to do.. 17:22 < futuresoon> sounds like what i'm doing 17:22 < kanzure> i don't think fenn or i have anything specifically against xml, rdf, slip, json, or anything else you throw at us 17:22 < kanzure> but at some point we needed to find some common ground 17:22 < kanzure> or sparql 17:23 < kanzure> gah brainlapse 17:23 < fenn> hey if you want to make a "more websitey" template for this, that would be great: 17:23 < fenn> um. heybryan.org:8081 is down? 17:23 < kanzure> er 17:23 < kanzure> one sec 17:23 < kanzure> try now? 17:23 < fenn> futuresoon: for this http://heybryan.org:8081/package/ 17:23 < fenn> because apparently it's too plain-looking for kanzure 17:23 < kanzure> yes 17:24 < fenn> everything is gray on gray for me though, regardless what website it is, and that's how i like it 17:26 < fenn> futuresoon: really unlikely that this already exists, but it would be cool if drupal had a git backend 17:26 < fenn> i am sick of data jails 17:26 < kanzure> i was pretty upset that i had to write my own module for django to work with git 17:27 < kanzure> and even then i couldn't stop it from wanting to use a database 17:27 < futuresoon> http://drupal.org/project/versioncontrol_git <--- not sure if this is anything like what you want? 17:27 < kanzure> and it doesn't have a flatfile database backend (django i mean) 17:28 < kanzure> "At the moment, only a back end for CVS has been written (see references)." 17:28 < futuresoon> kanzure: flatfile would include .rdf dbases right? 17:28 < kanzure> ah nevermind 17:28 < fenn> that was the project proposal 17:28 < kanzure> fenn: sorry, you're right 17:28 < kanzure> futuresoon: flatfile could mean anything :) 17:29 < fenn> almost anything 17:29 < kanzure> heh true that. sqlite doesn't count in my book 17:29 < fenn> i dont think a bare git repo would count 17:29 < kanzure> but it's closer than mysql and postgresql etc 17:29 < fenn> flatfile means "show me the code!" 17:29 < kanzure> fenn: no i'm talking about a plugin to make django use .. 17:29 < kanzure> er. 17:29 < kanzure> i have to remember that you don't actually know django 17:29 < kanzure> the way django works is that you instantiate the database and load it up with the models written in model python files 17:30 < fenn> uh, nevermind i got confused 17:30 < kanzure> django has some management code that does this for you, wrapping around the database api 17:30 < kanzure> and then the database takes away your information and puts it somewhere, probably in /var/mysql/ or something 17:31 < kanzure> futuresoon: please feel free to test/break the http://heybryan.org:8081/package/ demo. you can "edit" files 17:31 < kanzure> it should be one or two lines of python to add in a preview CAD image generated based off of the yaml that a user edits 17:31 < kanzure> (i already wrote a CAD preview generator dealy, but haven't tied it in) 17:32 < futuresoon> kanzure: i should wget the lego files for instance and then do something? 17:32 < futuresoon> edit the yaml? 17:32 < kanzure> wait wait, what? 17:32 < kanzure> click the "edit" link 17:32 < fenn> you could set up your own copy of the website but that's not what he means 17:33 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data.yaml/:edit 17:33 < futuresoon> ctrl-f for 'edit' doesn't give me anything on the lego page 17:33 < kanzure> you have to click a file first 17:33 < fenn> actually i dont see any edit link 17:33 < kanzure> like data.yaml 17:33 < fenn> :x 17:33 < kanzure> sorry 17:33 < kanzure> i suck 17:33 < kanzure> i hear you laughing, fenn :( 17:33 < futuresoon> no prob, okay i changed some of the CNC paths 17:34 < kanzure> you did? there were paths? 17:34 < futuresoon> i made a -1 a -2 17:34 < kanzure> what? 17:34 < futuresoon> the first y-vector 17:34 < kanzure> can you link me? 17:34 < futuresoon> that i saw 17:34 < kanzure> oh 17:34 < futuresoon> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:master/data.yaml/:edit 17:34 < futuresoon> same link i guess 17:34 < kanzure> is this it? 17:34 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego:anonymous/data.yaml/5ffe4c3060a4196bc21932d306190327c64db232 17:34 < kanzure> ah the first y_vector 17:34 < kanzure> yep i see the change 17:34 < futuresoon> that includes my edit 17:34 < kanzure> neat 17:35 < futuresoon> just have to work on that edit button now :-P 17:35 < futuresoon> just playing 17:35 * fenn mumbles something about line by line diffs 17:35 < futuresoon> yeah a diff sure 17:35 < kanzure> blah i don't have that implemented yet 17:35 < kanzure> some help would be awesome.. 17:35 < fenn> i cant help but feel all this git filesystem crap is redundant development effort 17:35 < kanzure> what? 17:35 < fenn> doesn't this exist somewhere already? 17:36 < futuresoon> http://drupal.org/project/versioncontrol_git <--- not sure if this is anything like what you want? 17:36 < kanzure> there are a lot of git/ruby libraries 17:36 < futuresoon> did that turn out to be relevant or not? 17:36 < fenn> i mean with cherrypy 17:36 < fenn> maybe that's asking too much 17:36 < kanzure> futuresoon: i know how drupal plugins work- in general- but how do drupal modules work, like versioncontrol_git? 17:36 < futuresoon> i know it may sound like the drupal "hard sell" but there's a lot of stuff you get out of the box with drupal 17:37 < futuresoon> drupal modules provide hooks to other modules so they can become depenencies of those modules 17:37 < futuresoon> that's about it 17:37 < futuresoon> the primary usefulness of drupal (apart from the large development community in general) are cck and views 17:37 < futuresoon> in particular i think rdfcck would be of interest 17:38 < futuresoon> because then you can have the arbitrary data structures that rdf provides and a nice web interface for entering their data and versioning them 17:38 < kanzure> like this? http://drupal.org/project/rdfcck 17:38 < futuresoon> yup 17:38 < futuresoon> i referenced that earlier 17:38 < kanzure> sorry 17:38 < futuresoon> no prob 17:38 < kanzure> i'll try harder 17:38 < futuresoon> i've played with that to some extent 17:38 < futuresoon> hah 17:38 < futuresoon> i've played with most of the sparql/rdf things that drupal has 17:39 * fenn looks at http://www.stackfoundry.com/wedge/ (re git for cherrypy) 17:39 < futuresoon> my primary interest in drupal is that it's going leaps and bounds to trivialize some of the difficulties with rdf at present 17:39 < kanzure> fenn: anyvcs isn't quite ready/functional yet 17:39 < kanzure> :( 17:39 < fenn> come on future, hurry up and get here 17:40 < futuresoon> heh 17:40 < kanzure> i think the main problems still aren't solved 17:40 < kanzure> screw the data format problem 17:40 < futuresoon> kanzure: ok 17:41 < futuresoon> so what are the main issues 17:41 < kanzure> instruction representation 17:41 < kanzure> in terms of classes and code, not in terms of the data format 17:41 < kanzure> one sec 17:41 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py 17:41 < fenn> instructions are a separate issue from dependency tracking 17:41 < kanzure> i think we have dependencies down, even if we don't have our resolution engine yet 17:42 < fenn> the philosophy maybe 17:43 < kanzure> futuresoon: the main reason for providing forms on the website for people to edit stuff is so that people who aren't computer wizards can get involved 17:43 < kanzure> but 17:43 < kanzure> if they have to be computational linguist experts in order to help out at all, what's the point? 17:43 < futuresoon> i don't think drupal can replace the need for something in a good language like python to actually provide instructions to CNC XYZ machines and what have you 17:43 < fenn> there is a lot of stuff like 'find me the relevant data on this ANSI standard' but people dont seem to want to do that kind of legwork 17:44 < kanzure> fenn: because nobody has access to ANSI standards :( 17:44 < fenn> you can find it in machinery's handbook, which you can download from me for the asking 17:44 < futuresoon> but if you had the data structures, even if it took rdf wizards to create the forms, it would allow people to make simple edits in the event they can't build/make what they apt-get 17:44 < kanzure> futuresoon: one idea i was thinking of was letting people type mostly plaintext instructions, but in a templating syntax with parametric variables or something 17:44 < kanzure> and then package maintainers would come by and integrate the information more thoroughly 17:45 < fenn> i think that is dangerous 17:45 < kanzure> futuresoon: is it important to generate these forms? i mean, i can think of a way to easily do that in python, but it doesn't seem important to me. 17:45 < fenn> the plaintext crap will outpace the rate of assimilation and it will turn into thingiverse/instructibles overnight 17:46 < kanzure> templates aren't plaintext crap necessarily 17:46 < fenn> yeah they're crap in sheep's clothing 17:46 < kanzure> let's say you pass a few variables to the Screw __init__'s 17:46 < kanzure> er 17:46 < kanzure> Screw's __init__ 17:46 < fenn> superficially looks like good data... until you try to do anything with it 17:46 < kanzure> then could you remind me why i made this wiki/git thing 17:47 < fenn> i don't know :( 17:47 < futuresoon> i can make a case for webforms, but if the CAD files or something have metadata associated with them, webforms for those may not be important 17:47 < kanzure> it was my understanding that we wanted to load up the yaml in a sandbox 17:47 < fenn> part of me wants to believe that 99% of humans aren't total morons 17:47 < futuresoon> i think where the webforms come in is if you want to represent data to people on the web where you'd benefit from network effects of people checking that data 17:48 < kanzure> but what's wrong with a giant