--- Day changed Sun Dec 20 2009
00:01 < kanzure> get back to work :p
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08:15 < kanzure> how is it that bre has this never-ending supply of people to do his bidding?
08:15 < kanzure> (in particular i'm looking at the laser scanner group)
08:15 < kanzure> .NET, srsly bre?
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17:28 < kanzure> does anyone have some pcb files?
17:30 < kanzure> gerber is it?
17:31 < fenn> gerber is not very editable
17:32 < fenn> usually the file name ends with .brd but that doesn't mean any particular format
17:32 < fenn> gerber = .grb
17:32 < fenn> or was it .gbr
17:34 < kanzure> hello fenn
17:34 < kanzure> you shouldn't have said anything, because now i'm going to force you to tell more stories
--- Log closed Sun Dec 20 17:42:18 2009
--- Log opened Sun Dec 20 17:48:45 2009
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17:51 < kanzure> yummy: http://www.sunburst-design.com/papers/
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18:17 < kanzure> hello Martyn 
18:18 < kanzure> are you also available on tuesday?
18:19 < genehacker2> ask the reprap people
18:19 < genehacker2> I'm sure they have some files
18:19 < kanzure> reprap people have terrible files
18:20 < genehacker2> *pcb files
18:20 -!- kanzure changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: http://designfiles.org/dokuwiki/skdb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2009/ http://heybryan.org/
18:32 < Martyn> kanzure : Sort of .. I work pretty hard from 10a to 7pm
18:33 < Martyn> kanzure : The last time I tried to make a "lunch" meeting for hackspace, I got back to work at 2pm, and lost a lot of time
18:33 < Martyn> Hmm?  what files?
18:33 < Martyn> kanzure : What time Tues?
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18:55 < kanzure> Martyn: 11:30 at freebirds on south lamar and ben white
18:55 < kanzure> ybit, fenn: http://groups.google.com/group/gnusha but let's use openmanufacturing for now
18:59 < kanzure> there's also http://twitter.com/gnusha
19:02 < Martyn> kanzure : Yeek, that's all the way crosstown for me ( I work up near MoPac and Braker )
19:03 < kanzure> out in the booonies huh
19:04 < Martyn> Well, it's where the tech companies are..
19:04 < kanzure> tech? us south austin people just use sticks and stones
19:04 < Martyn> and more importantly, that thing that keeps me employed and paying all the mortgages
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19:10 < genehacker2> don't you have an wifi airship?
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19:17 < Martyn> genehacker2 : That is supposed to help me get to a meeting, how?
19:17 < Martyn> It's not like it would even fit in a door :)
19:17 < Martyn> (even if I had it here in Austin)
19:24 < kanzure> russell232: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing if you wouldn't mind cross-posting the laserscanner stuff :)
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19:33 < ybit> er
19:34 < ybit> gnusha heckert?
19:34 < ybit> hows about just gnusha
19:34 < ybit> heckert is the last name for the guy who created the gnu mascot
19:43 < kanzure> i thought it was the name of the mascot too?
19:44 < kanzure> "The logo for GNU is a gnu head. The well-known drawing was originally done by Etienne Suvasa. It appears in GNU software and in printed and electronic documentation for the GNU project, and is also used in Free Software Foundation materials.[16]"
19:44 < kanzure> huh. well nevermind
19:45 < kanzure> fenn: etienne is in sf btw
19:57 < kanzure> the diybio email asking someone /else/ to update the wiki is either funny or sad
19:59 < Martyn> diybio - SF?
20:07 < kanzure> Martyn: SF is san francisco, where fenn is hanging out
20:07 < kanzure> diybio is http://diybio.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/diybio
20:41 < Martyn> Oh, I /know/ the DIYBIO crowd :)
20:42 < Martyn> I was wondering if they had counterparts here in Austin
20:42 < Martyn> They caused quite a stir by bringing a fridge to Noisebridge
20:42 < kanzure> we're their austin counterparts
20:43 < Martyn> What, you do biohacking as well?
20:43  * kanzure nods
20:43 < kanzure> hell yes :)
20:43 < kanzure> a little of everything
20:43 < kanzure> we also have someone who wants to set up a chem lab at les' place
20:43 < Martyn> *little shrug*
20:44 < kanzure> but yeah, i'm the annoying diybio guy: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/about (see "all time top posters" :/)
20:45 < Martyn> I think Tito holds that title
20:45 < kanzure> tito just charges outrageous prices for pieces of plastic
20:45 < kanzure> have you met him in person? i have no idea who this guy is
20:46 < Martyn> I have. His relative lack of knowledge of biochemistry / molecular bio was ... underwhelming
20:46 < kanzure> ha
20:46 < Martyn> I believe that biohacking is a wonderful thing, that needs to be treated with as much, if not more, respect than working with weaponry
20:46 < kanzure> you mean firearms?
20:46 < Martyn> I mean bombs
20:47 < Martyn> And no, I don't mean simple DNA extraction, or PCR replication experiments...
20:47 < kanzure> there's a lot of confusion about this
20:47 < Martyn> Those are fun educatinal tools..
20:47 < Martyn> educational tools rather
20:47 < kanzure> right, because some people say "hey look i'm doing bird watching, oh no i'm a diybio terrorist!"
20:48 < Martyn> OTOH, people who are busy actually performing recombinant splicing need to be more than just careful.
20:48 < kanzure> is recombinant genetic engineering all that you are worried about?
20:48 < kanzure> or is that just the upper limits of what you know ? 
20:48 < kanzure> er
20:48 < kanzure> imagine i said that in a more friendly way
20:48 < Martyn> kanzure : My degree and program of study was in biochemistry and molecular bio
20:48 < kanzure> ah cool :)
20:49 < kanzure> i'm surprised that people aren't worried about what's already out there
20:49 < kanzure> i mean, this is why we have sick days, why we have hospitals and biology labs researching this shit
20:50 < Martyn> Yep, my dad is the Chair of biochem at UC Santa Cruz .. so part of my responsibility growing up was partially helping him with his lab, being a TA, and playing with the tools.
20:50 < kanzure> nepotism at its finest. i wish i had a biochem dad :)
20:50 < kanzure> but yeah,
20:50 < kanzure> why are you worried about recombinant experiments?
20:51 < kanzure> nature performs billions of those experiments each day- i.e. see agrobacterium and forms of cancer across the species
20:51 < kanzure> well, most cancers are mutations
20:51 < kanzure> but my point is that recombination is somewhat like a mutation or gene transfer 
20:52 < Martyn> I kind of got a huge respect for just how badly things can go wrong.   UCSC had an accidental release of the 'no-frost' bacteria for strawberries back in 1994 .. they found some of that strain's plasmids on strawberries as far away as Monterrey one year later.  Thank goodness that strain wasn't something harmful to the environment.
20:52 < Martyn> (They were fined hundreds of thousands of dollars for the accidental release)
20:52 < kanzure> what was the "accidental release" in particular
20:53 < kanzure> sounds like they were doing an open field study?
20:53 < Martyn> They were supposed to spray a crop growing inside a tent .. by a phenomenal screw-up, they sprayed a crop growing in a UC Agricultural field.
20:53 < kanzure> huh
20:53 < kanzure> yes humans can be quite stupid
20:53 < Martyn> Yep, in this case .. it was tons of little things that all went wrong.
20:54 < Martyn> Point is though, natural mutation is generally muted by disfunction.
20:54 < kanzure> right
20:55 < Martyn> recombinant techniques end up having relatively high yields of viable organisms with gene sequences spliced in .. they work.  However, since they are engineered, there is ultimately someone who is responsible for having created and engineered the organism.
20:55 < Martyn> Aka, when something goes wrong.
20:55 < Martyn> These days, we're even starting to see custom sequences.
20:55 < kanzure> yeah
20:56 < kanzure> i've done some custom synthesis
20:56 < kanzure> er, custom sequences, i didn't do the synthesis itself
20:56 < Martyn> So, I believe in -strong- controls on these kinds of experiments.   Unlike some fields of human endeavor ... organisms that are engineered replicate themselves quite well.
20:57 < kanzure> yep always good to have a control group
20:57 < kanzure> i kid, i kid
20:57 < Martyn> kanzure : Wait, you've worked for one of the very few companies in the world producing custom genetic sequences to develop specific protiens?
20:57 < kanzure> no
20:57 < kanzure> i was working in a molecular biology lab on transcriptional logic
20:57 < kanzure> we weren't doing proteins
20:57 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/winfree.html
20:57 < Martyn> AH
20:58 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/genetic-circuits.html
20:58 < Martyn> *nod*
20:58 < Martyn> I'm familiar.
20:58 < kanzure> but yeah, definitely not a company
20:59 < Martyn> My father works on something similar .. but his interest in cyanobacteria has waned and moved towards the archaebactera.
21:00 < Martyn> He studies Rhodopsins, and other proton pumps and phototropic mechanisms
21:00 < kanzure> rhodopsins are cool :)
21:00 < kanzure> i guess you're familiar with all of the optogenetics literature then
21:00 < Martyn> I think his current field of study is almost exclusively the function of phototropin.  They have isolated it's structure .. pretty exciting stuff.
21:01 < Martyn> ALL?  Hell no man .. I'm only human.
21:01 < genehacker2> wait a minute so you're telling me there's some free no freeze plasmid out in the wild?
21:01 < Martyn> genehacker2 : Correct.
21:01 < kanzure> Martyn: http://bio.cc/Bioinformics/papers/ get reading, human!
21:01 < Martyn> although it's believed to have been fully contained
21:01 < Martyn> kanzure : Naa . that's my father's bailywick
21:01 < kanzure> :(
21:01 < Martyn> I keep up so that I can talk sensibly with him.
21:02 < Martyn> (genius that I know him to be :)  He keeps me on my toes)
21:02 < kanzure> ed boyden's work with monkeys and laser-activated ion channels in the brain is pretty awesome
21:02 < genehacker2> so that means the company that made it would have had an incentive not to release it if there weren't gene patents
21:02 < genehacker2> he's doing primates now
21:02 < genehacker2> ?
21:02  * kanzure nods 
21:02 < Martyn> genehacker2 : !company .. it was post graduate work of someone at UCSC
21:03 < Martyn> (in combination with another group at UC Davis)
21:03 < kanzure> post-graduate =~ phd?
21:03 < kanzure> hey can you get us a reference to a paper on this?
21:03 < Martyn> yep.
21:03 < genehacker2> so that's why they got sued?
21:03 < Martyn> Nobody got sued.. they had to pay a fine to the NSF
21:03 < genehacker2> sounds interesting to say the least
21:03 < genehacker2> oh
21:03 < Martyn>  a /massive/ fine
21:04 < genehacker2> ouch
21:04 < Martyn> Enough that it closed two labs at UC Santa Cruz
21:04 < Martyn> kanzure : If I really put my mind to it, probably.   I don't exactly feel like trawling the UC archives.  You may be able to glean something from Google.
21:05 < kanzure> yeah i just need a name
21:05 < kanzure> i can fetch papers
21:05 < kanzure> i don't like basing things off of heresy :)
21:05 < Martyn> *nod*
21:05 < kanzure> er
21:05 < Martyn> And I really don't remember the name of the scientist offhand
21:05 < kanzure> hearsay
21:05 < Martyn> It's just one of those sad things that happens from time to time.
21:05 < Martyn> I know the actual bacteria -did- become a product
21:07 < Martyn> "Frostban"
21:07 < Martyn> AFIK, even the orignal research predates my time in college .. 1988?
21:07 < genehacker2> well if it involved NSF then there's probably records of the incident
21:08 < Martyn> yep.
21:08 < genehacker2> http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/news/event?ID=1740
21:08 < genehacker2> unrelated but interesting
21:08 < Martyn> STRAWBERRIES
21:08 < Martyn> Delaying the onset of strawberry powdery mildew in fruit production fields planted with inoculum-free transplants.
21:08 < Martyn> Principal Investigators: D. Gubler, Plant Pathology, Davis; M. Nelson, Plant Pathology, Davis; N. C. Welch, UC Cooperative Extension, Monterey and Santa Cruz Counties; R. P. Buchner, UC Cooperative Extension, Shasta-Trinity Counties
21:09 < genehacker2> http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/blr.1987.6.379
21:09 < genehacker2> getting warm
21:09 < kanzure> thanks Martyn 
21:09 < Martyn> You're welcome
21:09 < genehacker2> oh there we go
21:10 < kanzure> huh, not on google scholar?
21:10 < Martyn> genehacker2 : And that's back in 1987
21:10 < genehacker2> I look at everything
21:11 < Martyn> genehacker2 : They finally did the experiment in 1994/1995
21:11 < Martyn> Now, perhaps someone had an agenda .. and the tin-foil-hat people could make a case that the accidental release wasn't so accidental
21:11 < kanzure> oh, no i was hoping for a paper about the "incident"
21:11 < Martyn> kanzure : I'll ask my father next time I talk to him.  He knew the student.
21:11 < kanzure> okay cool
21:12 < Martyn> Meanwhile, I'm going to continue trying to figure out when my PCB's are going to make it here from China
21:12 < Martyn> I just got shipping notification from Shenzen
21:12 < Martyn> *yay*
21:13 < kanzure> if i told you i was building a pcb shop running off of an open source SMT machine, would you order from it?
21:13 < kanzure> right here in the US of A
21:16 < Martyn> Only if you could do 6 layer and more
21:16 < kanzure> yikes
21:17 < kanzure> hm
21:17 < kanzure> what exactly are you doing? :)
21:17 < Martyn> yeah, my little experimental boards have gotten pretty .. um .. upscale :)
21:17 < Martyn> have you seen my last board for defcon?  (It was only 2 layers .. hee )
21:17 < kanzure> nope
21:17 < Martyn> www.igotu.com/hackthebadge
21:17 < kanzure> bkero: still have your defcon dump?
21:17 < kanzure> drvolts hah
21:18 < Martyn> Yep, that's my nickname
21:18 < kanzure> why cc in particular? not that it's a terrible choice or anything
21:18 < kanzure> creative commons
21:18 < Martyn> Dr. Tzapp is my partner-in-crime ..
21:18 < Martyn> CC because ardiuno/freeduino require it
21:22 < Martyn> I just made a mega3250 based version of this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lex53AY7Fmo&feature=player_embedded
21:23 < Martyn> The original inspired me to make a cheaper copy .. adding a high resolution clock chip to it to make it accurate
21:25 < Martyn> Paul Pound's original one is .. frankly, a work of art
21:26 < kanzure> piece of art or work of art?
21:27 < Martyn> work
21:28 < Martyn> and he made it from an heirloom, it's a one-off
21:29 < Martyn> I made a schematic and board, and then Dr. Tzapp doing his usual amazing job of routing, made one that is meant to just be a naked PCB .. almost the same number of surface mount LED's too
21:29 < Martyn> but it took 4 layers to make it all very neat and tidy.
21:29 < Martyn> when the PCB's arrive, they will be assembled over at Virtex .. off of Braker
21:30 < Martyn> the final design is very different than what Paul made .. but he definitely inspired it :)   I'm working on an arduino library for the 'clockduino' and hopefully people will find fun things to do with it -other- than just have it be a watch
21:31 < Martyn> one person who works in the same building I'm in, has expressed an interest in turning one into a GPS locator.
21:33 < kanzure> i have someone who would fall in love with you if you throw on some more fine-grained localization method
21:33 < kanzure> like wifi or bluetooth or such
21:33 < Martyn> "throwing in" that kind of thing is expensive
21:33  * kanzure nods
21:34 < kanzure> maybe non-surface-mount
21:34 < kanzure> do those exist? i haven't even checked
21:34 < kanzure> maybe something less extreme than a wifi usb dongle
21:34 < Martyn> Do you know how much it cost just to get 100 of these PCB's made?  (5x10 layup, routed w/ custom solder mask?)
21:34 < kanzure> honestly no, i've never ordered :(
21:35 < Martyn> $2800
21:35 < Martyn> Once you factor in the cost of the components
21:37 < Martyn> The microcontroller /alone/ is $4 each
21:38 < Martyn> A bluetooth chip that has the signal package is also pretty big.   So is a wifi one, and they use a LOT of power
21:38 < Martyn> OTOH, I left plenty of GPIO pins, the SPI, and i2c bus free and pads to solder to
21:38 < Martyn> so in theory you could buy something from digikey and attach it
21:40 < katsmeow-afk> kanzure, if you can do 2 -4 layer, tpfq spacing, solder mask, and 4 day delivery?
21:41 < Martyn> The hack the badge boards had a Bill of Materials (BOM) of about $24, were 4-up panelized, and the PCB's cost $52/panel ($13 each)
21:41 < Martyn> assembly added another $8 to each board.
21:42 < Martyn> $45 each board, and there were four LEDs I had to turn around on each board
21:42 < Martyn> (they were assembled incorrectly)
21:46 < Martyn> *sigh*
21:46 < Martyn> Well, I got the tracking information I need from DHL
21:46 < Martyn> "estimated arrival date -- 1/4/2010"
21:46 < kanzure> my birthday
21:46 < Martyn> ****ssssiiiiggghhhh****
21:46 < kanzure> i turn, "old"
21:47 < Martyn> Sometimes it gets here faster, but the xmas holiday is going to put a crimp on international shipments
21:53 < kanzure> fenn: your zeitgeistmovement has been sending lots of viewers to our presentation video
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21:55 < genehacker2> really you're getting zeitgeisters?
21:55 < genehacker2> would you like me to wrangle some more?
21:56 < genehacker2> the zeitgeist movement stuff is currently doing a burn through the internet
22:01 < kanzure> heh just saw an ad for an automated pasta making machine. too bad i don't eat pasta..
22:01 < kanzure> http://www.pamaroma.com/usedpastamachine.htm
22:01 < kanzure> weird form factors
22:04 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: would that make you say yes?
22:05 < katsmeow-afk> used pasta machines? no, the specs and delivery of pcb, prolly would
22:05 < kanzure> no not the pasta :)
22:05 < kanzure> although.. free pasta on the side? dunno what people go for
22:06 < katsmeow-afk> copper-on-pasta
22:06 < kanzure> sounds like a market waiting to happen
22:08 < katsmeow-afk> genehacker, i don't believe the  zeitgeisters will change anything, and i can say that seeing as how this is my 16th xmas alone in a cold space i cannot heat
22:09 < genehacker2> can't heat?
22:10 < genehacker2> totally automatic pasta machine?
22:10 < katsmeow-afk> don't tellme that is too complicated to understand
22:11 < genehacker2> does it turn co2, water, trace minerals, and energy into pasta?
22:11 < genehacker2> do you have a computer and electricity?
22:12 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, i have a computer and electricity
22:16 < genehacker2> then you have a heater
22:17 < genehacker2> run something computationally intensive
22:17  * katsmeow-afk points to the 12 computers in this room that are plugged in,a nd the resulting $165 power bill if they are plugged in
22:17 < katsmeow-afk> turned on
22:18 < kanzure> if they are plugged in for how long?
22:19 < katsmeow-afk> long enough to keep warm by?
22:19 < katsmeow-afk> i can make a bloody heater, i canot pay for using it
22:19 < katsmeow-afk> i bought 12 acres when it was cheap to have wood for free to keep warm, i lost that wood to neighbor's dogs, if you remember that fisaco
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22:21 < katsmeow-afk> i had started a cocentrating solar plant too, but that was shut down by threats of violence by epple tho thought it was a theat to society and stealing fromthe powerco
22:21 < katsmeow-afk> so again, i am sittin gint he cold while they are partying merrily
22:26 < genehacker2> did you just say started a concentrating solar plant and got shut down?
22:27 < katsmeow-afk> i did , large paraboic, steam piston engine, driving a generator , that sorta thing,, back property line is 1200ft, i had the room to do it
22:28 < genehacker2> and you got shut down?
22:28 < genehacker2> do you have the paperwork that shut you down?
22:28 < genehacker2> if so then ask some environmentalist website with anti-corporate undertones for help
22:28 < katsmeow-afk> no, it was verbal threats
22:28 < genehacker2> oh well that works too
22:29 < genehacker2> make a video and post it on youtube
22:29 < katsmeow-afk> and i had hired a earthmover sorta of company to move a rock, and they tore up the pin i had set in concrete for the collector to pivot around,, and i gave up eventually
22:29 < genehacker2> it worked against this one coal company whose employees harassed some protestors
22:29 < katsmeow-afk> the engine and the generator have since rusted up
22:29 < genehacker2> WTF?
22:29 < genehacker2> that's messed up
22:30 < genehacker2> what sort of threats?
22:31 < genehacker2> how the heck is making your own power stealing from the powerco?
22:31 < katsmeow-afk> the beating of my ass, the incresed turning loose of rottwilers on me
22:31 < katsmeow-afk> hell if i know
22:31 < genehacker2> small town?
22:32 < katsmeow-afk> yep, alafuckingbama small , and in the county
22:32 < katsmeow-afk> http://designerthinking.com/solar.html
22:32 < genehacker2> damn
22:35 < genehacker2> you could say some stuff about energy independence and not using middle eastern oil...
22:35 < katsmeow-afk> and then they say i am against the war and anti-american
22:36 < katsmeow-afk> well, IE7 showed the page correctly, IE8 doesn't, FF still does
22:36 < genehacker2> for some reason FF never shows thingiverse correctly for me
22:37 < kanzure> show screenshots
22:38 < katsmeow-afk> ?
22:38 < kanzure> i want to see what it is "displaying incorrectly"
22:39 < kanzure> (why are you using thingiverse anyway?)
22:39  * katsmeow-afk pokes genehacker nervously
22:42 < genehacker2> why kanzure?
22:42 < genehacker2> because skdb doesn't have the capabilities of thingiverse yet
22:43 < genehacker2> and it's what the reprap people use
22:43 < kanzure> actually skdb does have the capabilities of thingiverse
22:44 < genehacker2> I wasn't aware of that
22:44 < genehacker2> how do I upload files
22:49 < genehacker2> http://imgur.com/correct
22:49 < genehacker2> oops
22:49 < genehacker2> http://imgur.com/5VMD4
22:49 < genehacker2> this is what I see 
22:51 < kanzure> huh i just found myself in a google search result over here: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/histo3
22:51 < kanzure> genehacker2: did you let the images load?
22:52 < genehacker2> yes
22:52 < genehacker2> but they don't load
22:54 < kanzure> what version of firefox?
22:57 < genehacker2> the newest
22:57 < genehacker2> 3.5.6
23:04 < kanzure> works in 3.5.5
23:11 < ybit> genehacker2: you must have some add-on preventing the images from loading
23:13 < randallagordon> Cline's reply on the DIYbio list... Top notch.
23:18 -!- genehacker2 [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:20 < kanzure> jonathan sometimes shows up in here from time to time
23:47 -!- genehacker2 [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:51 < ybit> go to http://irssi.org
23:51 < kanzure> ybit: why should i?
23:51 < ybit> i found the 'How IRC should look" amusing
23:51 < kanzure> :)
23:52 < kanzure> wish it would load