--- Day changed Thu Dec 24 2009 00:00 < ybit> http://www.willowgarage.com/pages/robots 00:01 * ybit wonders if their software would be useful in other projects, http://www.willowgarage.com/pages/software 00:05 < ybit> Color-Shifting Contact Lenses Alert Diabetics to Glucose Levels :: http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-12/color-shifting-contact-lenses-alert-diabetics-changing-glucose-levels 00:19 < kanzure> "help everything's going dark!" 00:27 < marainein> that's just diabetic induced retinal detachment 00:27 < ybit> http://gene-quantification.info/ 00:29 < kanzure> nice overview 00:38 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_fog :: nice, and it was j. storrs hall who came up with it 00:39 < ybit> it's the first time i've heard of the term 00:39 < ybit> introducted in ~'93 00:42 < ybit> "Suppose you have your car filled with molecular-sized robots, floating 00:42 < ybit> around in the air. *Lots* of them. Now when an accident occurs, they 00:42 < ybit> need only reach out and grab the assembler/robot next to them, forming 00:42 < ybit> a 3-dimensional interlocking structure. And incidentally transforming 00:42 < ybit> the air in the car from a gas to a solid. Assuming the network extended 00:42 < ybit> down into your lungs and other airspaces in your body, you could drive 00:42 < ybit> into a brick wall at 100 mph without serious injury. " 00:43 < ybit> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.nanotech/browse_thread/thread/4d4e35d85613a7b/3f12131f281d6a59?lnk=gst&q=utility+fog#3f12131f281d6a59 00:44 < drazak> yeah, except you might puncture a lung if they're not evenly distributed in the aurspace 00:44 * ybit is distracted tonight 00:44 < drazak> airspace 00:47 < katsmeow-afk> could you see thru the fog of floating microbots? 00:48 < ybit> so maybe one day skdb will also control utility fog, this would make me happy: "skdb make me a sandwich' and it appears in my hands without robot arms flying all over the place 00:48 < katsmeow-afk> err, even if the lungs were solidified, you could crush all the blood from the heart, which is right there with the lungs, causing a hemmorage somewhere 00:50 < ybit> http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/metadata/noaa-icecore-2475.html 00:51 < ybit> "Records of past temperature, precipitation, atmospheric trace gases, and other aspects of climate and environment derived from ice cores drilled on glaciers and ice caps around the world." 00:51 < ybit> ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/gisp2/isotopes/gisp2_temp_accum_alley2000.txt 00:54 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:58 < kanzure> ybit: you hadn't heard of utility fog? i thought you read the entirety of orion's arm by now 01:02 < kanzure> i have such a hard time keeping track of what you people don't know 01:04 < kanzure> ybit: computronium? alpha point? omega point? grey goo? femtotech? angelnets? utility sand? hyperfog? 01:07 < ybit> i know all of that 01:07 < ybit> hyperfog is new, it must be the same as utility fog... 01:08 < kanzure> it's more resistant to subversion :p 01:08 < ybit> http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4675f3dade6a8 01:08 < ybit> hehe 01:08 < kanzure> wtf is up with the hashes in their URLs 01:08 < kanzure> ah right, "foglets" 01:13 < ybit> er... s/all/some :P 01:13 < ybit> angelnets and utility sand are new 01:13 * ybit is trying to recall when he heard about alpha and omega point 01:14 < ybit> it was sometime this previous year 01:15 < ybit> i haven't read all of orion's arm yet, distractions ya know 01:15 < ybit> would be nice to have the encyclopedia galactia in pdf format 01:15 < ybit> so i don't have to figure out what to click next 01:16 < ybit> wait, angel nets are what i thought they were 01:17 < ybit> grr, i'm going to bed 01:28 -!- MrClif [n=clif@c-67-189-77-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:34 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-20-86.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:49 -!- KrisC [n=admin@207-172-233-39.c3-0.eas-ubr3.atw-eas.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:01 < technologiclee3> patent buster: method for keeping track of what contacts in a social network do and do not know through digital or analog means 02:03 < technologiclee3> this could be implemented by a comparison of record of each members searches viewed articles, videos or other information sources including audio 02:10 < technologiclee3> representation includes but is not limited to graphical overlays of knowledge maps indicating areas and points of overlapping or diverging knowledge possesion 02:13 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:11 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:33 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:39 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has left #hplusroadmap [] 03:40 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:05 -!- technologiclee1 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has left #hplusroadmap [] 04:05 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has left #hplusroadmap [] 05:58 < Utopiah> (regarding yesterday discussion on Lisp "This code is made for walking" cf http://books.google.fr/books?id=EfX0miZllggC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=%22this+code+is+made+for+walking%22&source=bl&ots=HzDGyCy1wB&sig=CGLqVdnan8W6UQcul5HODqOQPEo&hl=en&ei=EVczS9GaLsS64QacoKWqCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22this%20code%20is%20made%20for%20walking%22&f=false and the originial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRkovnss7sg ;) 05:58 < Utopiah> (too bad nobody made a Vocaloid remix of this yet) 07:06 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:32 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:41 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:50 -!- kristian1aul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:54 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:05 -!- kristian1aul is now known as kristianpaul 08:15 -!- branstrom_ [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:33 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:02 -!- technologiclee3 [n=l@70.114.201.242] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:10 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:12 < eleitl> your machine-phase questions yesterday, Martyn. 10:13 < Martyn> Partial sentence? 10:13 < Martyn> I think I missed a line during the login... 10:14 < eleitl> Do you still have them? 10:14 < eleitl> I talked about them with kanzure, but I don't think you were there. 10:15 < Martyn> About picometer vs nanometer measurements? 10:15 < eleitl> Yeah, and another one I don't recall. 10:16 < Martyn> It was more a comment than a question. After looking what kind of matter exists in the picometer range, and then looking at 32 bit ranges .. I was just offering an opinion that nanometer resolution would probably be sufficient for most of our lifetimes 10:16 < eleitl> You seemed to think pm resolution was equivalent to quark technology, or strangelets, or what have you. 10:16 < eleitl> current proximal probe has less than 1 pm resolution today. You can resolve orbitals, for instance. 10:17 < Martyn> Oh, sure .. but for practical engineering? 10:17 < Martyn> I don't think we've gotten to the level of technology needed for practical subatomic engineering :) 10:17 < eleitl> that is practical engineering, today. 10:17 < eleitl> you can position macroscale assemblies relative to each other with less than 1 pm resolution. 10:18 < Martyn> With less than the resolution of a wavelength of light? 10:18 < Martyn> [[citation needed]] 10:18 < Martyn> To quote wikipedia :) 10:18 < eleitl> Light is huge, 400 nm blue light. 10:18 < Martyn> right. 10:19 < eleitl> Read Science Magazine, plenty of current work there. 10:19 < eleitl> We can sort CO by the isotope on metal surface in UHV. 10:19 < eleitl> We can do many neat things, but few people know for some strange reason. 10:20 < Martyn> I'm reading "Picometer positioning system based on a zooming interferometer using a femtosecond optical comb" now 10:20 < eleitl> that is actually quite recent. 10:20 < Martyn> Yep, which is why I'm having a read :) 10:20 < Martyn> Education = power 10:20 < Martyn> The system realized a resolution of better than 30 pm and a stability of 1 nm. 10:21 < Martyn> Which is frankly amazing 10:21 < Martyn> Okay, then I need to switch to a more practical engineering problem 10:21 < Martyn> handling powers of powers 10:21 < Martyn> because if you want picometer resolution, and only have a 32bit system to measure in .. you've got a problem 10:21 < eleitl> you will find silicon surface resolution enough to resolve orbitals 10:21 < Martyn> 64 bits helps 10:22 < eleitl> my point exactly yesterday. 10:22 < Martyn> Because then you have to deal with micro and macroscale measurements... and macroscale engineering does occur in increments of tens and hundres of meters 10:22 < Martyn> in fact, when dealing with large scale automated manufacturing of .. say .. roads .. it's possible to have kilometers 10:23 < Martyn> So the problem has to be reduced 10:23 < Martyn> "This system is designed to handle target scales between X and Y" 10:23 < eleitl> you need a system which can cover pm and Mm. 10:23 < Martyn> not enough bits 10:23 < eleitl> bits are cheap 10:23 < Martyn> No, they aren't. 10:23 < Martyn> That's the problem .. handling calculations that require a shift register is -very- expensive computationally 10:23 < eleitl> each additional bit doubles your resolution, or the dynamic range 10:23 < Martyn> right 10:24 < Martyn> but processors have only so much range, and you don't want to lock out 32 bit systems 10:24 < Martyn> or need to require a Cell processor (128 bit resolution) 10:24 < eleitl> your IT background is not very extensive, from the sound of it. 10:24 < eleitl> damn, must afk for a while. 10:25 < eleitl> bbl 10:25 < Martyn> so you have to take into account the bell curve .. how many projects require scale pm, nm, mico, mili, centi, deci, m, etc... 10:25 < Martyn> eleitl: That was a bit insulting .. I'm a linux kernel engineer by trade. 10:28 -!- Phreedom_ is now known as Phreedom 11:35 -!- randallagordon [n=randalla@c-76-115-127-7.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42 -!- randallagordon [n=randalla@c-76-115-127-7.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:46 < kanzure> heh i'm getting ads for virgingalactic tickets in my gmail account 11:48 < kanzure> http://www.galacticjourneys.com/ 11:48 < Martyn> that's funny 11:48 < kanzure> $200k/seat heh 11:49 < Martyn> Heh. 11:50 < Martyn> Well, that's what it will cost for them to continue building out new ships 11:50 < kanzure> well, guess i should get back to work 11:50 < Martyn> Considering the millions of dollars it takes today to get -anyone- up into a suborbital trajectory ... 11:50 < kanzure> i still want to reverse engineer the .sldprt format 11:50 < Martyn> it's a bargain 11:50 < kanzure> do you have any thoughts on how i can do this? 11:50 < Martyn> *nod* 11:50 < Martyn> not many. 11:50 < kanzure> i can break the file up into identifiable subsections 11:50 < kanzure> but there's this chunk of binary data 11:51 < kanzure> now, this is made even harder by the fact that i don't have a local installation of solidworks 11:51 < kanzure> i did at one point but i'm not sure where it ran off to :) 11:51 < kanzure> could someone in here load up files every once in a while and confirm whether or not they are what i claim they should be? 11:55 < Martyn> Well, I certainly can. 11:55 < Martyn> I'll reinstall Solidworks today on my Windows 7 parallels install 11:55 < Martyn> (2010) 11:55 < Martyn> and generate some blank files 12:10 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 12:12 < kanzure> nah i have blank files 12:12 < kanzure> Martyn: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/sw-reverser.zip have fun 12:13 < Martyn> What's in the file? 12:14 < kanzure> lots and lots of .sldprt files, starting with blank ones, moving up to basic geometric primitives, etc. 12:14 < kanzure> it's about 8 MB 12:15 < kanzure> also includes each .sldprt file saved in 10 other formats 12:18 < Martyn> *nod* 12:28 < kanzure> hm the first bytes are always 1d23 71d5 81da a248 58a8 b298 891b 99ef 12:29 < kanzure> isn't 231d "#"? 12:33 < kanzure> er just 23 12:59 < technologiclee3> Martyn: what were you talking about with the 32bits and picometer resolution? 13:02 < Martyn> tech : 32 bits only provides for 4 billion integer resolution 13:03 < Martyn> which means you would be only able to measure four meters, at picometer resolution 13:03 < Martyn> (assuming an unsigned integer) 13:03 < Martyn> There are tricks you can use, to increase your integer sizes (long long) 13:03 < Martyn> however, in the end you add overhead since the processor can't handle numbers that large in one tick 13:04 < Martyn> 64 bit processors, of course, have no such issues 13:04 < Martyn> That is, for example, why a 32bit ARM processor can only address 4GB of RAM. 13:04 < Martyn> (unless you want to use special paging tricks) 13:08 < Martyn> 0 to 2^64 covers 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 13:08 < Martyn> 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 13:08 < Martyn> Or 18 exabytes 13:11 < Martyn> So you could measure something about eighteen million kilometers long .. roughly the distance between the sun and the farthest the moon gets from the sun ... in picometers 13:11 < Martyn> Big difference :_) 13:12 < kanzure> you could also use scientific notation 13:12 < kanzure> i know, it's lame to not have a billion zeroes in your integers 13:13 < kanzure> well, 64 zeroes or something ;) 13:13 < Martyn> 1.845 13:13 < Martyn> × 13:13 < Martyn> 10 13:13 < Martyn> 19 13:13 < Martyn> Er .. 1.84*10^19 13:13 < kanzure> heh 13:13 < Martyn> so 19 zeroes 13:14 < kanzure> no why would you store 19 zeroes? 13:21 < Martyn> ?? 13:21 < Martyn> You're not storing 19 zeros 13:21 < Martyn> you are doing binary math 13:22 < Martyn> which means you need enough bits to -do- the math 13:22 < Martyn> when you talk about picometer resolution, it means you have to be able to do the following: 13:23 < Martyn> 2,445,324,923,210,836,421 + 564,275,345,226,264,211 / ..... etc.. etc.. 13:24 < Martyn> (even though, admitedly, measuring something the distance between the sun and venus .. in picometers .. is a bit do-laly) 13:24 < kanzure> usually when i deal with small scales i just use units 13:24 < kanzure> so i say 19 pm + 15 pm 13:24 < kanzure> what's the big deal 13:25 < kanzure> just say 19 instead of a float representing a trillionth of a meter 13:25 < Martyn> kanzure : We're talking about manufacturing here 13:25 < technologiclee3> well what is this resoulution for a CAD system? 13:25 < kanzure> Martyn: yes i'm well aware :) 13:26 < Martyn> technologiclee3 : kanzure and eleitl were discussing what the base resolutoin for the model exchange format should be 13:26 < kanzure> actually, no 13:26 < Martyn> eleitl has an interest in pico-scale manufacturing 13:26 < kanzure> well that's true :) 13:26 < Martyn> My apologies, I misundersood though 13:26 < kanzure> yeah i agree it would be a stupid idea to make the file format use picometer resolution for everything 13:27 < kanzure> even, say, 100km designs 13:27 < kanzure> have you ever played with GNU units before? 13:27 < Martyn> although pm scales respresent distances that describe distances of electrons from their nuclei .. and even the nuclei themselves. 13:27 < technologiclee3> do you have a specific software in mind? 13:27 < kanzure> technologiclee3: skdb 13:27 < Martyn> I still say that nm resolution, in 64 bit, is sufficient 13:27 < kanzure> technologiclee3: eugen was suggesting we add in support for these multi-scale resolution on CAD parts 13:27 < Martyn> that is enough to describe distances within the -galaxy- 13:28 < kanzure> show me a case where i need a 64bit integer that i can't get by just saying "some number in pm units" or somesuch 13:28 < kanzure> or whatever the appropriate units would be 13:29 < technologiclee3> there can 2 parts to the program 13:30 < technologiclee3> one for dealing with the pico/nano/micro world and it's rules and then a general CAD program on top 13:30 < kanzure> right 13:30 < kanzure> right now in skdb you can (sadly) scale down any boundary representation model to as far as you like 13:31 < kanzure> fenn says OCC limits it to 1e-8 or something 13:31 < kanzure> but even then, let's say you remove that threshold 13:31 < kanzure> it still would let you scale it down as small as you like 13:31 < kanzure> which isn't exactly useful because at some point, you hit atoms 13:31 < kanzure> and finite resolution, and the boundary-representations are usually curved in weird ways that atoms just don't look like :) 13:31 < technologiclee3> there can be a solar system / galaxy scale for bigger projects, but that can wait for now 13:32 < kanzure> so i don't know how to mediate that "threshold" between the point where you have a boundary representation and you get atoms 13:32 < kanzure> if you take Martyn's idea, everything is automagically in atomic resolution *always* 13:32 < technologiclee3> it's the granularity of the material 13:32 < technologiclee3> and the forces involved 13:32 < kanzure> Martyn: is that right? 13:33 < kanzure> Martyn: you were thinking of a representation of CAD models that would be based on atoms and scalable to large structures? 13:33 < Martyn> I was 13:34 < technologiclee3> if it is just the model that is fine it can have that precision whether we can manufacture to those tolerences or not, it only matters it you want to simulate - or if the structure is very small 13:34 < kanzure> technologiclee3: if i gave you a 2D or 3D curve that was differentiable at all points, could you write a program to figure out the right sequence of atoms that would construct that curve? with correct bonds etc. using nanoengineer1 13:34 < kanzure> yeah i'm not too worried about simulation. i think someone else should handle that 13:34 < Martyn> In fact, I was just thinking that you set the base resolution to some reasonable real world distance that is likely to be used in the project 13:35 < kanzure> Martyn: :p sounds like you're a planck-length advocate 13:35 < Martyn> nm seems like a good one, because 2^32 nm is a very large object 13:35 < kanzure> planck? plank? 13:35 < Martyn> but one nm describes a small one nicely 13:35 < Martyn> and everything in between is likely a useful measurement for manufacturing 13:35 < Martyn> ( nm nicely describes colors too ..) 13:36 < technologiclee3> theoretically - i could get it done more quickly by finding a real programmer - at this point i could look up a structure of a given diameter. NE-1 will let you put an atom wherever you want and bond it - then one - does Energy Minimization 13:36 < Martyn> in 32 bits, the maximum size of an object is still 4 meters, but in 64 bits .. well .. you're in great shape 13:37 < kanzure> Martyn: i still think you're bullshitting me. in skdb we have had thousands of km long objects 13:37 < kanzure> we just say "the length is 100km" 13:37 < Martyn> Sure, because you're saying that a variable base is desireable, which frankly I can agree with 13:38 < kanzure> what is a "variable base" 13:38 < Martyn> The smallest unit of measure you can break the project down into 13:38 < Martyn> or need to represent 13:38 < Martyn> i.e. how accurate do you need to be on an object that you're describing that is .. say .. 1km in size 13:38 < Martyn> If you have to be accurate to a mm, you're in good shape ... 13:39 < kanzure> on the question of accuracy, you can also get some extra umph out of doing it algorithmically 13:39 < Martyn> if you have to be accurate to a nm .. then you're going to have an interesting time .. 13:39 < kanzure> even if you need sub-mm in your example 13:39 < Martyn> *nod* 13:39 < Martyn> it's all theoretical 13:39 < kanzure> for instance a repeating set of 4 atoms to make up a 1km object 13:39 < Martyn> give me a practical object :) 13:39 < technologiclee3> the chemists like the angstrom or 1/10 of a nm - which is fine for the program - the user may prefer to see things in engineering notation nm,UM, mm 13:39 < kanzure> Martyn: just saying, it seems like a non-problem 13:40 < Martyn> Might be. Lets see what happens during implementation 13:40 < Martyn> I'm a practical man, and I like Things that work now. 13:40 < kanzure> ok great 13:40 < Utopiah> ( OS House : Supplying a platform that shares drawings and construction information in an open source way http://www.os-house.org/ ) 13:41 < Martyn> SPEAKING of things that work now ... I'm going to get back to getting my new nozzle drawn up in SolidWorks today 13:41 < Martyn> So I can have a faster and more accurate makerbot 13:41 < technologiclee3> so, say SKDB is doing a reprap build or such - it just needs to know that the tool places 1/10 of a millimeter or whatever on each pass 13:41 < Martyn> right. 13:41 < kanzure> yep 13:42 < kanzure> Martyn: what i'm still confused about is the actual features that are needed to satisfy eugen's requests 13:42 < kanzure> erm 13:42 < Martyn> (The head I'm working on right now will have a 0.18mm nozzle hole, and the tip is 0.20mm ... that's going to be good enough for most of my needs for rapid prototyping ) 13:43 < kanzure> i guess that was just a chemical binding operation 13:43 < kanzure> so that's what needs to be described. there's no chemical reaction tools yet in skdb 13:43 < technologiclee3> until you want to hook up an ion beam to it... then ... what if you just consider atoms and molucles as parts? 13:43 < Martyn> I still have to figure out how I'm going to improve the MakerBot's accuracy so that it can position the head with 0.1mm accuracy 13:43 < kanzure> what else would they be but parts? 13:44 < Martyn> I have some rotatry optical encoers... 13:44 < kanzure> Martyn: is it windy in your neck of the woods? 13:44 * Martyn shrugs 13:44 < Martyn> I'm going to worry about things that exist :) 13:44 < Martyn> VERY 13:44 < kanzure> yeah.. hm. 13:44 < Martyn> gusts that are bending trees over 13:44 < kanzure> yes 13:44 < Martyn> Solidworks installed! Woot. 13:45 < technologiclee3> so does SKDB interface with any reprab driver software yet? 13:45 < Martyn> I found my license key .. it was hiding at the bottom of a box, in the back of the closet, labeled "misc stuff thrown in at last minute" 13:45 < kanzure> technologiclee3: no, i don't have a reprap to play with :( 13:45 < Martyn> kanzure : See what I mean? 13:45 < kanzure> hm? 13:45 < Martyn> kanzure : PRACTICAL first :_ -grin- 13:45 < Martyn> I have a makerbot you can play with.. it's rep-rap-ish 13:45 < kanzure> how is that practical? it's all the way over there 13:45 < Martyn> I'll bring it to the space once we have things set up :) 13:46 < Martyn> and I'm reasonably sure it won't be damaged 13:46 < kanzure> oh you're thinking about the future 13:46 < Martyn> Just a short way into the future... a few weeks. 13:46 < technologiclee3> we have internet - tools could be networked like printers 13:46 < Martyn> Yep 13:46 < kanzure> Martyn: hey did the techshop epilog laser have any cupsd drivers? 13:46 < Utopiah> technologiclee3: IPv6 and APIs on every production mean 13:46 < technologiclee3> or if you own the printer you could 'permit' prints as one sees fit 13:46 < kanzure> i haven't been able to find non-windows-drivers for the laser cutters 13:48 < Martyn> kanzure : No. 13:48 < Martyn> kanzure : Epilog doens't play well with CUPS 13:48 < kanzure> that's sad 13:48 < Martyn> Why? 13:48 < Martyn> CUPS doesn't handle vector 13:48 < Martyn> and epilog isn't postscript based 13:49 < kanzure> is there a vector-based linux-compatible print server? 13:49 < Martyn> kanzure : The J-TEC laser cutters from China have linux drivers 13:49 < kanzure> huh. 13:49 < Martyn> The program directly drives the J-TEC through USB 13:49 < kanzure> the program? so it's not through kernel-land? 13:49 < Martyn> and uploads bitmaps for etch, vector data for cut 13:49 < Martyn> no, it's all userspace 13:49 < Martyn> there are no kernelspace laser cutter drivers, nor would I expect there to be any 13:50 < kanzure> the emc peeps do kernelspace for controlling their cutting machines 13:50 < Martyn> almost all laser cutters available today operate on a "transfer job to cutter" queue mechanism 13:50 < kanzure> yeah but that doesn't let you do real time feedback 13:50 < Martyn> well, they take advantage of realtime extensions in the kernel, but that's a different kettle of fish 13:50 < kanzure> sure. 13:50 < kanzure> another thing for the todo list 13:51 < Martyn> Wow... this apple is faster at running Solidworks through emulation .. than my laptop was at doing it in real hardware. That's sad :) 13:51 < kanzure> what emulator? 13:51 < kanzure> vmware? 13:52 < kanzure> virtualbox? bochs? er.. running out of ideas 13:52 < Martyn> parallels 13:52 < Martyn> v5,0 13:53 < kanzure> Martyn: sometime later in the week would you be willing to help ybit or me package up skdb or one of its depenencies (pythonocc) into a .deb? 13:53 < kanzure> or a .dmg if you're familiar with that 13:57 < technologiclee3> i tried to use BitRock Install Builder once - didn't quite get it 13:58 < technologiclee3> http://installbuilder.bitrock.com/index.html?_kk=install%20builder&_kt=e1792f00-d034-4706-a141-c07be87ac93e&gclid=CK3bkNbt754CFRKenAodymUULA 13:58 < kanzure> making a .deb is a long process the first time you do it, i hear 13:58 < kanzure> half the time i can't even remember where i put the intermediate files, and i take good care of my path structures.. blah. 13:59 < technologiclee3> that .deb for NE-1 i saw did not have the dependencies - i do not see how it was different form the tar.gz download 13:59 < kanzure> it didn't have any dependencies? 13:59 < Martyn> kanzure : I'd be happy to teach you, sure. 13:59 < kanzure> Martyn: have you done it before? 14:00 < Martyn> many times. I'm an Ubuntu maintainer 14:00 < kanzure> does ubuntu have the same debian-dev-server-ring setup going on? 14:00 < Martyn> yep 14:00 < Martyn> even more so 14:01 < technologiclee3> if you want some atoms ready to go in Ubuntu... http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com/msg1405690.html 14:01 < kanzure> i still don't see the point of nanoengineer1 14:01 < kanzure> you shouldn't have to "see" DNA 14:02 < kanzure> isn't the sequence more important? 14:02 < technologiclee3> the point is that it is a design tool - the sequnce can be modeled to atomic detail - the oragami feature leats you work at a larger scale 14:04 < technologiclee3> it is a set of parts that should be in SKDB http://www.dana-farber.org/abo/news/press/2009/scientists-create-custom-three-dimensional-structures-with-dna-origami.html 14:06 < technologiclee3> the atoms make the DNA and the DNA makes the parts - all that can be ignored by the person who wants to make the parts into a material - which is used to make somethink like a road that extends for kilometers and absorbs sunlight to make electricity 14:14 < technologiclee3> had to do a reinstall - lets see if i can get NE! running in lucid - http://nanoengineer-1.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=NE1_Build_Requirements#Linux 14:19 < technologiclee3> this is about to turn into an NE! install session... Hey Bryan about that NE! install script.. you skil python2.5 and g++ 14:19 < technologiclee3> skip* 14:25 < technologiclee3> also skip the qt4-devtools=4.3.5-0ubuntu3, libqt........ i sent you the script i was working on - which gets 1/2 way thru the install and after the pyqt the rest is just cut and past here it is fot the others http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcY64lRR9IiPZGMyNjg4OXhfMTE0Z2t0a2poZ3g&hl=en 14:43 < technologiclee3> *set root pwd....* 14:43 < technologiclee3> apt-get install build-essential 14:43 < technologiclee3> oops wrond box 15:05 < kanzure> okay 15:05 < kanzure> i get stuck elsewhere because of some bad drivers on my laptop (i965) 15:06 < kanzure> anyway if i boot into an earlier kernel i'll be able to play with it, but the downside is that wifi won't 15:21 < technologiclee3> dam the PyQt i need is not there anymore - NE1 s got one foot in the grave if its dependencies are outdated... http://www.riverbankcomputing.com/static/Downloads/PyQt4/PyQt-x11-gpl-4.4.4.tar.gz 15:22 < technologiclee3> anyone where i can get that file - it was the onlu place on the net i could find 15:23 < kanzure> it worked for me with python-qt4 15:23 < kanzure> and python-qt4-gpl 15:23 < kanzure> (this was on the debian repositories) 15:28 -!- eleitl [n=eugen@95-91-110-91-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:42 < technologiclee3> berkley db 4.5 is longer in the reposotories either 4.6 and change the path or , go find 4.5 15:44 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-3-181.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:46 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52 < technologiclee3> well, i saw the start screen then i got ImportError: No module named idlelib.Delegator 15:52 < technologiclee3> l@EV007:~/ne1/112/cad/src$ python2.5 main.py 15:53 < technologiclee3> ImportError: No module named PyQt4.Qt 15:54 < kanzure> sudo apt-get install idle-python2.5 15:54 < kanzure> sudo apt-get install python-qt4 15:58 < technologiclee3> they installed - same error 15:59 < kanzure> try just: sudo apt-get install idle 16:01 < technologiclee3> same error 16:02 < technologiclee3> here is the packages doc they are doing for fedora http://fitzsim.org/packages/NanoEngineer-1.spec 16:14 -!- any15334728 [n=someone@75-120-36-127.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:31 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-36-127.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59 -!- any15334728 is now known as katsmeow 17:03 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:14 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 17:29 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:40 -!- danielfalck [n=chatzill@pool-71-111-79-148.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201203240]"] 17:50 -!- Redeemer [n=lorddeem@c-75-72-218-226.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:03 < kanzure> hello Redeemer 18:05 < Redeemer> Hey, whats up. 19:12 < kanzure> randallagordon: thanks for the feedback 20:31 < kanzure> blargh, spammers: http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=C2762x8AAADcopddhEWYDBSbYFWiBPHyk_b8rF62FW1FmIgf2U6ekw 21:06 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:33 -!- Redeemer [n=lorddeem@c-75-72-218-226.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:13 -!- randallagordon_ [n=randalla@pool-173-50-179-138.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:13 < randallagordon_> howdy 22:15 < kanzure> hi 22:17 < randallagordon_> Still tweakin' your site? 22:20 < kanzure> yes :) a few tweaks here, a few tweaks there 22:22 < randallagordon_> ah, evolution ;) 22:22 < randallagordon_> working on a site for a new client myself...custom WordPress template 22:42 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:42 -!- genehackerAFK [n=noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:46 < kanzure> who is peer infinity?