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02:05 < MrClif1> oh Hi, guys I've been doing christmass stuff at my Brothers house so haven't been at the keyboard.
02:05 < MrClif1> id mrclif 
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09:44 < kanzure> hello JayDugger 
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11:17 < JayDugger> Hello, kanzure. I apologize for the lag in answering. I had some housework to do.
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11:34 < JayDugger> Kanzure, do you plan to attend the Foresight 2010 conference next month?
11:36 < kanzure> i haven't decided yet. i'm kind of annoyed that hod is talking there about open manufacturing
11:36 < kanzure> and that nobody told me about it until last week
11:36 < JayDugger> Hod? A nickname or a typo?
11:37 < kanzure> hod lipson
11:37 < kanzure> http://foresight.org/conf2010/
11:37 < kanzure> "Open source in manufacturing and AI"
11:38 < kanzure> "Principles underlying exponential manufacturing"
11:38 < kanzure> i have no idea why half of these people are speaking. anissimov? he doesn't care about manufacturing
11:38 < JayDugger> I see Hod Lipson at "Adaptive and Self-Reflective Systems."
11:39 < kanzure> he's the only one with background in anything vaguely related to open manufacturing
11:39 < JayDugger> Yeah, but you do get Merkle's presentation.
11:40 < JayDugger> I don't think attendance deserves the airfare and hotel cost, but I don't know about the off-program value.
11:40 < kanzure> hrm
11:40 < JayDugger> Not going myself, but I wondered if you were.
11:40 < kanzure> i think we should get at least one goon to go
11:40 < kanzure> i know some people in the area
11:40 < kanzure> namely fenn
11:41 < kanzure> fenn: please?
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11:53 < JayDugger> Kanzure, if you end up going, you might see if you know a Senior Associate for the Saturday evening Senior Associate Reception. Each S.A. gets to bring one guest.
12:04 < kanzure> noted :)
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12:25 < kanzure> there
12:25 < kanzure> biohackernoob: there's a way to transfer DNA to agrobacterium via flash freezing
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12:26 < kanzure> biohackernoob: there should be some papers on agrobacterium here: http://designfiles.org/papers/
12:26 < biohackernoob> ya, this website has a simple project that does that: http://www.midthun.net/newpage11.htm
12:26 < kanzure> Light strongly promotes gene transfer from Agrobacterium tumefaciens to plant cells: http://designfiles.org/papers/Light%20strongly%20promotes%20gene%20transfer%20from%20Agrobacterium%20tumefaciens%20to%20plant%20cells.pdf
12:26 < kanzure> among others
12:26 < biohackernoob> it sounds really simple, but is it required to use ampicillin? the project uses it in conjunction with the lux operon
12:26 < biohackernoob> thx for the links :)
12:26 < kanzure> i didn't see anything about flash freezing on that page- looks like a different method
12:27 < kanzure> ampicilin shouldn't be too incredibly hard to acquire
12:27 < biohackernoob> but is it necessary or was that just for the project?
12:27 < biohackernoob> all im interested in is bioluminescece
12:28 < kanzure> this looks like the typical ampicilin resistance project
12:28 < kanzure> ampicilin resistance is added so that you can kill off everything that did *not* get the genes you wanted
12:28 < kanzure> everything that is not resistant to ampicilin will also not have the gene you're trying to throw into it
12:29 < kanzure> thus if you infect the population with ampicilin you will only have your genetically modified organisms left :)
12:29 < biohackernoob> ah ya that would be useful
12:34 < biohackernoob> once a plant has been transformed with a bioluminescence gene, that plant can be then bred and the offspring will exibit that trait right?
12:36 < kanzure> it depends on what you do precisely
12:36 < kanzure> if you inject a plasmid into the plant cells, the plasmid will stay there and in some cases persist over a few generations, but since it's not integrated in the genome it doesn't continue forever
12:36 < kanzure> if you literally modify the genome, then it's in there for good
12:37 < biohackernoob> o i thought the plasmid incorporated itself into the plants genes?
12:37 < biohackernoob> through the use of A. tumefaciens
12:39 < biohackernoob> and should the introducition of the plasmid be in the early stages of the plant's life or when it's fully grown?
12:39 < kanzure> wait wait
12:39 < kanzure> hold on i might have lied.
12:39 < kanzure> there are two types of plasmids
12:40 < kanzure> non-integrating and integrating-plasmids 
12:40 < kanzure> integrating-plasmids get put into the genome
12:40 < biohackernoob> ya
12:40 < kanzure> non-integrating plasmids are called episomes (sometimes)
12:41 < kanzure> anyway, sorry about that
12:41 < kanzure> yes some plasmids can be integrated into the genome
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12:42 < biohackernoob> atm im trying to devise the simplest expirement so this can be accomplished....
12:43 < kanzure> the ampicilin-resistance gene experiments are sometimes performed in high school biology classes
12:43 < biohackernoob> so far im thinking: introduce biolumin. plasmid into A. tumefaciens; introduce A. tumefaciens to the plant in question
12:43 < biohackernoob> i might just skip the ampicilin-res. gene...
12:44 < kanzure> i've never seen anyone handle agrobacterium without a clean room. but this doesn't mean it can't be done (i guess)
12:44 < kanzure> it's also a good idea to just make a clean room in the first place ;)
12:44 < biohackernoob> a clean room? why?
12:44 < biohackernoob> agrobacterium isnt harmful to humans..
12:44 < biohackernoob> or so i thought
12:45 < biohackernoob> and i dont have the money/supplies to make a clean room :P
12:45 < biohackernoob> ill just... "be careful" XD
12:45 < kanzure> usually the reasons why you make a clean room is so that you don't hurt *the experiment*
12:45 < kanzure> don't get me wrong, i think this is a good project for you
12:46 < biohackernoob> ACTUALLY!
12:46 < biohackernoob> my dad has a cleanroom at his work
12:46 < biohackernoob> if i could use it over the weekend
12:46 < biohackernoob> i might be able to do this properly :P
12:46 < biohackernoob> if not, ill just deal with it
12:49 < biohackernoob> as for the site that i linked you to, can i just replace the E. coli called for in the experiement with A. tumefaciens?
12:51 < biohackernoob> or is some other procedure probably required?
12:52 < kanzure> you will need to use another procedure
12:52 < kanzure> agrobacterium and ecoli are different and grow better under different conditions
12:52 < biohackernoob> ok
12:53 < kanzure> superkuh: did you ever do an agrobacterium project?
12:53 < superkuh> No.
12:53 < superkuh> I have come to the conclusion that any biology projects are currently beyond my means.
12:54 < biohackernoob> that doesnt sound encouraging :(
12:54 < kanzure> biohackernoob: he collected some notes here: http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/000-Bio%20And%20Chemistry/001-agrobacterium/
12:56 < biohackernoob> cool thanks
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12:59 < biohackernoob> hm... the agrobacterium pdfs seem to be timing out :/
13:01 < superkuh> My roommate is torrenting movies currently. Try something that can handle intermittent connections.
13:01 < biohackernoob> ill just wait
13:02 < superkuh> You may be waiting for months. Sorry.
13:05 < superkuh> My webserver, thttpd, does bandwidth throttling in a funny way and many browsers think the connection drops.
13:06 < biohackernoob> well it IS downloading
13:06 < biohackernoob> just intermittently as u said
13:06 < biohackernoob> and very slowly :P
13:08 < biohackernoob> oh and for bioluminescence there are lots of different plasmids you can buy... any ideas which are the ones to get?
13:08 < biohackernoob> one source suggested plasmid pUCD615
13:09 < biohackernoob> which has lux ABCDE i think and doesnt require a promoter
13:09 < biohackernoob> but i couldnt find anywhere to buy that...
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13:15 < kanzure> hey Martyn 
13:15 < kanzure> are you on the openmanufacturing mailing list yet?
13:21 < Martyn> Not that I know of
13:21 < Martyn> Open manufacturing isn't a huge focus of my life...
13:23 < kanzure> hackerspaces my friend?
13:28 < Martyn> Yes, but the standardization of protocols and such just isn't something that excites me :)
13:28 < Martyn> I'm going to concentrate on the three spaces I have a personal interest in ..
13:29 < Martyn> NYC Resistor, Noisebridge, and the new studio here in Austin
13:29 < biohackernoob> superkuh 's stuff is a lot to read O.o
13:30 < Martyn> Today, I'm working on a gel electrophoresis tray for a friend in San Francisco
13:31 < biohackernoob> and the protocols are really complex... i was hoping for something a bit simpler
13:32 < Martyn> All kind of fun gluing glass together :)
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13:32 < Aliks> yo
13:32 < Aliks> big room
13:32 < Aliks> wasnt expecting this kind of size
13:34 < Martyn> We could shink it :)
13:34 < Martyn> shrink it .. *chuckle*
13:35 < Martyn> I'll need one of those Dr. Who devices though ... "dimensional stabilizer sonic screwdriver with a fluxtron emitter."
13:35 < Martyn> (or star trek)
13:37 < biohackernoob> so what do u think would happen if i just threw some agrobacterium, agar, and plasmids onto a plate, let it sit for a while, and wait until a colony of agrobacterium is bioluminescent.. then trasfer that colony to a plant? :P
13:37 < biohackernoob> is that overly simple experiment doomed to fail?
13:38 < biohackernoob> or is there even the slightest chance of success?
13:39 < Martyn> zero
13:39 < Martyn> plasmids are not something you can just stably "dump into a plate"
13:39 < biohackernoob> why is that?
13:39 < Martyn> OI
13:39 < biohackernoob> cant the bacterium just take up the plasmid?
13:40 < Martyn> Not kidding in the noob category?   The explanation is long, and easily fills two -semesters- worth of bioscience
13:40  * biohackernoob is basing this off of AP biology from high school.. so bare with him :P
13:40 < biohackernoob> so bacteria need something to force them to take up the plasmid?
13:41 < Martyn> biohackernoob : A comparison would be .. "Can I throw a supercharger into a garage with a car, shake it up, and expect the supercharger to install itself?"
13:41 < biohackernoob> lol
13:41 < Martyn> That' is -precisely- the right analogy
13:41 < biohackernoob> alright, so what is the #1 that is missing from my over-simplified experiment?
13:41 < Martyn> However, you can educate yourself rather rapidly
13:42 < biohackernoob> i am.. ive read a ton in the past 24 hours
13:42 < biohackernoob> and am still learning :)
13:42 < biohackernoob> i just have an obsession with over-simplified experiments
13:42 < Martyn> What you are missing is a basic understanding of how plasmid transfter between bacteria works, and how the genetics of plants work, and why bacteria and plants are very different.
13:42 < Martyn> You may be more interested in reading about the Tobacco Mosaic virus, and how it can be used as a carrier of gene sequences into tomatoes
13:43 < biohackernoob> hm... i was talking about the parts in the experiment.. i understand the basics of that kind of stuff, enough to understand. i just need help devising an experiment, preferably ultra-simple
13:43 < katsmeow-afk> bare != bear
13:44 < Martyn> There is also now a High School / Early College level set of kits you can use to study how the gene for luminol into a tomato
13:44 < Martyn> everything you need comes in the kit, and there is enough material in the kit to repeat the experiment a couple times
13:44 < biohackernoob> but it's restricted to tomatoes?
13:44 < Martyn> (It uses a phage, which has already been prepared for you)
13:44 < kanzure> maybe he was being metaphorical about throwing things together randomly
13:45 < Martyn> It's not that it's restricted to tomatoes .. it's just that the /vector/ (phage) only infects tomatos
13:45 < biohackernoob> hm...
13:45 < kanzure> hello Aliks 
13:45 < Martyn> It's still Nobel-level science to inject genes for flourecense into various creatures.  It's -very- useful, but it's not random.
13:46 < biohackernoob> and kanzure, in effect, i wasnt :P i'm curious as to what the SIMPLEST experiement for bioluminescence in plants would be
13:46 < Martyn> The fact just is that it -isn't- simple.
13:46 < kanzure> Martyn: it's not a nobel experiment, sorry
13:47 < biohackernoob> its not simple, but can be made simpler i'm betting
13:47 < Martyn> kanzure: It's hard bioscience to put the flourecense gene into a creature that doesn't yet have it.   It's -far- from trivial, and involves inserting a long sequence into a metabolic pathway.
13:48 < kanzure> how is it "hard"
13:48 < kanzure> sorry, i think you're just bullshitting the newbie
13:48 < kanzure> have you done this ever?
13:49 < biohackernoob> and you're underestimating me :/
13:49 < biohackernoob> which is understandable
13:49 < biohackernoob> but i'm definitely not stupid and am willing to challenge myself
13:49 < kanzure> biohackernoob: well he's right that it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of reading :)
13:50 < biohackernoob> one of the challenges being: to devise the simpliest experiment for bioluminescence that can be done at home
13:50 < biohackernoob> thats the goal anyway...
13:50 < kanzure> well if you wanted that, get some fireflies :)
13:51 < Martyn> kanzure : Yes, with my father, and Nobel Laurate Dr. H. G. Khorana in fact.
13:51 < biohackernoob> well, i wanted bioluminescence in plants to be exact...
13:51 < biohackernoob> animals not so much
13:52 < Martyn> kanzure : I grew up with bioscience in my house.  My dad is the chair of Biochemistry at UCSC, and I nearly went in the direction of biochem/molecular bio instead of computer science.
13:52 < Martyn> I still do TA work for my dad from time to time, like correct tests.
13:54 < Martyn> NOW ..
13:54 < Martyn> as I was saying
13:54 < kanzure> ha ha
13:54 < Martyn> You can buy kits these days that take the extremely hard thing (inserting a gene sequence into a vector) and make it easy by giving you a pre-prepared vector
13:55 < biohackernoob> but is there such a kit for Plasmid pUCD615 in A. tumefaciens?
13:55 < Martyn> I don't think you have to be related to a university or high school to buy them .. but I could be wrong on that point.
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13:56 < biohackernoob> well i attend UCLA, so im sure connections can be made if necessary
13:56 < kanzure> Martyn: i haven't seen a place that ships plasmids to anyone, sadly :(
13:56 < kanzure> biohackernoob: oh you're in a university? that helps
13:56 < Martyn> Any reason you want to insert the gene for an antibiotic resistance into a bacteria?
13:57 < biohackernoob> nope, all i care about is the bioluminescence
13:57 < kanzure> Martyn: he didn't want to do that for some reason. i tried explaining to him that it helps to pick out the bacteria that didn't get the new plasmids.
13:57 < Martyn> kanzure : "plasmid"  "plasmid carrying strains"
13:57 < kanzure> Martyn: i meant "just anyone"
13:57 < biohackernoob> well im just saying if i have to, then fine
13:57 < kanzure> Martyn: of course they ship to universities and businesses :) sorry for the ambiguity
13:57 < biohackernoob> otherwise, i could leave it out to simplify the experiement
13:58 < biohackernoob> so the resistance gene can be in, or out i dont care atm
13:59 < Martyn> Okay, look .. if you hold on for a second, I'll call my dad and see where he gets the lab kits for the BMB100 course he teaches.
13:59 < Martyn> I'll be "away" for about 10-20 minutes
13:59 < kanzure> but that's a professor
14:00 < Martyn> Yes, but I've ordered the DNA PCR experiment kits before to teach a boy scout troop, and I definitely am /not/
14:00 < kanzure> my guesses: fisher scientific, carolina supply co., merck, sigma-aldrich (last)
14:00 < kanzure> ah well that was probably from carolina
14:00 < Martyn> and I didn't use my dad's association to buy them
14:00 < Martyn> no, not from Carolina ..
14:00 < kanzure> hrm
14:00 < kanzure> well let's see what he has to recommend :)
14:01 < Martyn> It's a bioscience place over in North Carolina
14:05 < Martyn> Ah, he uses an ATP Bioluminescence assay kit from Roche for the experiment ... still requires lab equpment you don't have acess to.
14:06 < biohackernoob> hm...
14:07 < kanzure> roche. huh
14:08 < Martyn> He is reminding me that the bioluminescence experiment I'm thinking of involves a bacteria with the Lux sequence ( Tomato Cancer bacteria ) to see if the tomatos are resistant or not to the bacteria
14:09 < Martyn> So it's not actually inserting the gene sequence into the tomato, it's inserting the gene sequence into the bacteria using a bacteriophage, and it's a complex and low-yield experiment to get the sequence into the bacteria in the first place.
14:10 < Martyn> I'm also getting the standard lecture about doing experiments in  my garage.  -laugh-
14:10 < Martyn> (as in "DON'T!" )
14:10 < biohackernoob> heh
14:12 < Martyn> kanzure : How much gene sequencing have you done, out of curiosity?  Have you done lab work to do gene splicing?
14:12 < kanzure> i have not done splicing
14:12 < kanzure> i have not done sequencing either 
14:14 < kanzure> fyi everyone the skdb server is back up for a few minutes. was showing someone else and thought i'd drop a link
14:14 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org:8081/package/lego/
14:16 < Martyn> Then why the _heck_ would you take the position that it's not Nobel class science?    Just two years ago Martin J. Evans (and two others) won the nobel prize for creating a knockout gene mouse
14:17 < Martyn> The whole point of the Lux sequence, and why the Lux sequence itself is Nobel-class science, is that it has provided a metabolic pathway to find the specific action of gene sequences.  It's still cutting edge science, and far from easy to do!
14:17 < kanzure> that was for gene targeting
14:18 < Martyn> Inserting the Lux sequence in a specific location is an incredibly hard task, and one that any grad-level student can still persue to get a PhD.
14:18 < biohackernoob> here is something interesting: http://www.genome.ou.edu/protocol_book/protocol_adxF.html 
14:18 < biohackernoob> heat shock is what the high school project was about
14:19 < biohackernoob> and apparently it doesnt only work on e. coli
14:19 < kanzure> usually it's more important that you put the promoter somewhere near to the target gene so what you do is put the promoter next to the gene sequence you want
14:19 < biohackernoob> maybe it could be tried on agrobacterium?
14:19 < kanzure> and then put in the entire sequence just about anywhere
14:20 < Martyn> Okay, enough time online .. I /need/ to get back to working on this gel tray
14:20 < kanzure> cad files please? :)
14:21 < kanzure> and if you gimme a mesh i'll bonk you over the head :p
14:21 < biohackernoob> ok, well, kanzure what do u think of heat shock to agrobacterium?
14:21 < Martyn> Cad files?  It's just cut glass :)
14:21 < Martyn> There is nothing I'm doing that involves more than using a glass cutter, a pair of glass pliers, a heat torch, or glass glue...
14:22 < kanzure> yes but not everyone wants to do it manually forever
14:22 < kanzure> sigh
14:23 < kanzure> (i'm glad that you do, though)
14:23 < Martyn> http://www.6mgel.com/K2020_600.jpg
14:23 < Martyn> It's not that different from this one ..
14:23 < Martyn> Although I don't make it from plastic ...
14:24 < Martyn> some people have been making it out of acrylic, and have discovered that acrylic will spoil some runs
14:24 < kanzure> any reason why? i see lots of people making theirs with acrylic these days
14:24 < kanzure> heh
14:24 < Martyn> (the best thing to use is polycarbonate)
14:24 < kanzure> ah i see
14:24 < kanzure> i didn't know that about acrylic
14:24 < Martyn> When you are trying to separate things above a molecular weight of 4000, it's not an issue
14:25 < Martyn> when you are starting to use cutters to get below 800, then acrylic has some properties that get in the way
14:30 < kanzure> does it depend on the gel too?
14:31 < kanzure> wait there should be a paper on this by now
14:31 < kanzure> comparing different gels vs. voltage vs. box material
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14:39 < biohackernoob> if i took the experiment from here: http://www.midthun.net/newpage11.htm , swapped out e. coli for agrobacterium, and tried multiple cultures at different temperatures, according to this: http://www.genome.ou.edu/protocol_book/protocol_adxF.html it should work
14:40 < biohackernoob> even if the rate of success will be incredibly low.. doing it many times should yield some sort of result
14:41 < biohackernoob> then once u have the agrobacterium, u could just breed them so u can try multiple trials on various plants
14:44 < Martyn> *shakes head*
14:44 < Martyn> Just because a bacteria infects a plant, does not mean there will be exchange of DNA
14:45 < Martyn> you need a vector you know will do the job.
14:46 < biohackernoob> ya, agrobacterium is the most common vector for transection in plants
14:46 < kanzure> agrobacterium specifically invades cells and has a pore that DNA translocates out of, IIRC
14:46 < kanzure> the protein pore is pretty awesome btw, i've been trying to figure out all of the genes that encode it so it can be ported to other organisms in the future
14:46  * kanzure loads his paper dir
14:47 < kanzure> here we go: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/competence_proteins_ADP1.jpg
14:47 < kanzure> (this was not agrobacterium however)
14:47 < kanzure> er wait, sorry
14:47 < kanzure> i'm getting things mixed up
14:47 < kanzure> the competence proteins listed there are for making a specific cell "competent" in the sense that it takes up and absorbs DNA naturally
14:47 < kanzure> and it isn't the same exact one used in agrobacterium
14:48 < kanzure> in particular that was from acinetobacter: http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_instead_of_ecoli.html
14:48 < kanzure> paper: http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_ADP1.pdf
14:48 < biohackernoob> hm.. after reading some stuff about transfection, apparently you can do it without a vector
14:49 < biohackernoob> you just insert the plasmid directly
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14:49 < biohackernoob> lower chance of success, but still works O.o
14:49 < kanzure> hey Aliks 
14:49 < Aliks> back for a bit, got booted
14:49 < Aliks> lo kanzure
14:49 < kanzure> la
14:49 < Aliks> whats going on in the hplus world?
14:50 < kanzure> right now we're talking about "natural competence" in organisms where they take in DNA from their environment
14:50 < biohackernoob> im asking tons of rediculous questions is whats going on :P
14:50 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/competence_proteins_ADP1.jpg
14:50 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_instead_of_ecoli.html
14:50 < Aliks> ah
14:50 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/Acinetobacter_ADP1.pdf
14:50 < kanzure> just some links from the last few moments
14:50  * Aliks nods.
14:50 < Aliks> you guys involved in DIYbio?
14:50 < Aliks> your name looks familiar
14:51 < biohackernoob> but apparently i can skip the agrobacteria step
14:51 < kanzure> Aliks: yes, we're everywhere
14:51 < Aliks> lol
14:51 < Aliks> thats funny
14:51 < Martyn> okay, first box finished .. 9 to go
14:51 < biohackernoob> it says with calcium phosphate, you can transfect DNA directly into a cell
14:52 < biohackernoob> the likelyhood of incorporation into the genome is low, but happens
14:52 < kanzure> yes that's a very popular method
14:52 < biohackernoob> why dont i just trying that with like 200 samples!?
14:52 < biohackernoob> as long as a single one does it, i can breed the plants to my hearts desire :D
14:52 < kanzure> http://protocol-online.org/ is your friend btw
14:53 < Aliks> hey bryan, your pics take a while to load man.. gotta reduce resolution lol
14:53 < kanzure> Aliks: yeah it's being served up on my home internet connection
14:53 < kanzure> any pictures in particular? i might have them hosted on a faster server somewhere
14:53 < Aliks> the one on the right top
14:53 < Aliks> that makes sense then
14:53 < kanzure> ok try this: http://designfiles.org/papers/competence_proteins_ADP1.jpg
14:53 < Aliks> just the home host thing
14:53 < Aliks> yeah the pic is small actually, 53k
14:53 < kanzure> that should be so fast it blueshifts your face off
14:53 < kanzure> er, redshifts :)
14:54 < Martyn> *groan*
14:54 < kanzure> ha
14:54 < kanzure> i'm sorry :)
14:56 < Aliks> did I get disconnected again or did you guys get quiet?
14:56 < kanzure> what was the last message you received
14:57 < Aliks> nah I'm connected
14:57 < Aliks> you guys were just quiet
14:57 < Aliks> lol
14:57 < kanzure> hi doug
14:57 < kanzure> ew mysql
14:57 < Aliks> meh it works
14:57 < Aliks> I don't really care about what db I use, I adapt to whatever the needs are of the project
14:57 < kanzure> do you do xhtml/css/javascript/ajax pretty-stuff? :)
14:57 < Aliks> and mysql has worked find
14:57 < Aliks> er fine
14:58 < kanzure> everyone always uses a database
14:58 < Aliks> I do pretty much everything web based
14:58 < kanzure> yes but do you like doing it? i hate web page design/development and need help
14:58 < Aliks> also I do C/C++ etc.
14:58 < Aliks> learning biology & chemistry
14:58 < Aliks> yeah I like it
14:59 < Aliks> leaning toward doing things more directly toward bringing about the singularity/longevity escape velocity lately
14:59 < kanzure> yay is there any way i can get you to help out with some diybio-related websites that are in desperate need of not sucking
14:59 < Aliks> but I still like it
14:59 < Aliks> yeah sure
14:59 < Aliks> I can let you in on a preview of one I just finished up
14:59 < kanzure> Aliks: http://heybryan.org:8081/ this is the front-end website to skdb ("apt-get for hardware")
14:59 < kanzure> have you been keeping up with the project? i'd be happy to explain if not
15:00 < Aliks> I've been pretty distracted with school (check education part of my personal site)
15:00 < kanzure> do you not want to share those links with everyone?
15:00 < Aliks> but I'm familiar with omnifab
15:00 < Aliks> it's not quite ready yet
15:00 < kanzure> okay
15:00 < Aliks> another 24-48 hours it will have its final content
15:00 < kanzure> well we're all friends of aubrey's.. :)
15:00 < Aliks> I have a partner who's workin on content
15:01 < kanzure> Aliks: you might want to watch out, the title can be misconstrued to "campaign against /the/ aging"
15:01 < kanzure> *picture of an aging person*
15:01 < kanzure> you can see how this might backfire
15:01 < Aliks> lol
15:01 < Aliks> hahaha
15:01 < Aliks> hadnt thought of that
15:01 < Aliks> I'll see how it goes
15:01 < Aliks> if we need to clarify I can change it up
15:01 < biohackernoob> http://www.its.caltech.edu/~bjorker/Ca-P_Transfection_MDCK.pdf this looks simple enough
15:02 < kanzure> Aliks: one of my recent tools that i like is this: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/nR5qw7_w
15:02 < Aliks> we've been tweaking it a lot the last few days
15:02 < Martyn> Two finished, 8 to go
15:02 < kanzure> Aliks: the result of that is this: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-12-24-gnusha-results.png
15:02 < Martyn> I love glass glue, at least when the fixture is working right and holding all the pieces in place
15:02 < kanzure> i've been using it for every design mockup i've been doing lately
15:02 < Martyn> it's as fast as cyanoacrylate
15:03 < Aliks> cool
15:04 < Aliks> but yeah, just a quick bio on me... I have been pretty much all comp sci/web dev until a few years ago when I started to learn about chemistry, biology, other sciences... trying to get involved in computational chemistry for anti-aging drug design
15:04 < Aliks> probably wouldve leaned more toward chem/bio earlier if the opportunity had been there, but we all do what we can when we can I guess
15:04 < kanzure> cool
15:04 < kanzure> drug design is a fun field
15:04 < Aliks> yeah
15:05 < kanzure> you seem to have the same web background as me
15:05 < kanzure> i was a php script kiddie back in the day :(
15:05 < Aliks> haha
15:05 < Aliks> yeah, but just for the record, I treat PHP as if it was a more complex language
15:06 < Aliks> I do a lot of db intensive work
15:06 < Aliks> like my current project is completely automating the community college to university transfer planning process
15:06 < kanzure> fun
15:06 < Aliks> students punch in their major, schools they want to go to, where they assessed in english/math, max # of units to take per semester
15:07 < Aliks> it goes and grabs the transfer requirements, then the prerequisites (all of this was a pain in the ass with no cooperation from the bureaucracy at the college)
15:07 < Aliks> (easier to scrape their data than get a more usable format)
15:07 < kanzure> yep i've written one too many scrapers in my time..
15:07 < Aliks> and then it will likely use a travelling salesman type algorithm to identify the best path
15:07 < Aliks> unless I can find a better optimisation
15:07 < Aliks> shrug
15:08 < kanzure> that's actually what i started to do when i signed up at utexas.edu 
15:08 < Aliks> yeah my main interest now in web is doing stuff to indirectly move forward the singularity/LEV
15:08 < kanzure> i saw this huge list of course offerings in the schedule
15:08 < kanzure> and had no idea what i wanted to take
15:08  * Aliks nods.
15:08 < kanzure> and not only that, but what would the most optimal schedule be
15:08 < Aliks> right
15:08 < kanzure> so i scraped the data set and got cracking :)
15:08 < Aliks> its totally nuts how many courses places offer
15:08 < Aliks> and then to expect people to be able to transfer etc.
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15:08 < Aliks> and every school/school combination has different agreements
15:09 < Aliks> its ridiculous
15:09 < Aliks> I'd like to see a DIYuniversity.  Some sort of grassroots funded, accredited university that offers courses online for cheap after it gets off the ground.
15:09 < kanzure> there's a few people in here working on that.. not as the project lead, but somewhere involved
15:09 < Aliks> go out of its way to make the process easier on students
15:09 < kanzure> uh, now if only i could remember who it was
15:09 < Aliks> really?
15:10 < Aliks> thats crazy
15:10 < Utopiah> Aliks: http://www.ocwconsortium.org/
15:10 < kanzure> yes there was one guy from p2puniversity
15:10 < kanzure> nah it's not ocw
15:10 < Aliks> this must be the place to be... lots of smart people crawling around this place
15:10 < kanzure> and another from wikiversity
15:10 < kanzure> Aliks: i hoard brains
15:10 < Utopiah> the p2p uni project was linked to OCW afaik
15:10 < kanzure> huh okay
15:10 < Utopiah> (can't find their blog anymore though)
15:11 < Aliks> only thing about OCW is you dont get an actual degree... we need to arrange an accredited institution to pull it all together and offer degrees
15:11 < Utopiah> Aliks: my related links if you are interested http://fabien.benetou.fr/Content/Education#EducationWebsites
15:11 < Aliks> and if you're like me you probably have gained twice as much knowledge outside of college as in
15:11 < Aliks> and its a shame we cant get any paper for that
15:11 < Aliks> thanks Utopiah
15:11 < kanzure> you can get fake diplomas from the web
15:12 < Utopiah> diploma mills...
15:12 < Aliks> kanzure yeah but who wants that?
15:12 < Aliks> I mean for real
15:12 < kanzure> people who are screwed
15:12 < Aliks> real, accredited degree, but with DIY/noninstitutional mentality
15:12 < Aliks> shrug
15:13 < Utopiah> Aliks: check http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Education too
15:14 < Utopiah> link I was looking for first was : http://www.p2pu.org/
15:14 < kanzure> aha i knew it existed and wasn't just a figment of my imagination :)
15:15 < biohackernoob> ok lets say i transfect a bioluminescent gene into a plant cell. once that process is complete, will the cell begin to produce light quickly afterwards? or does it take a long time?
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15:17 < kanzure> wb Martyn 
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15:17 < Martyn> 5 done .. aaaand now I'm out of glue
15:17 < Martyn> *sigh*
15:17 < Martyn> Or more specifically, I can't find the new tube of glue I -just- bought last week
15:19 < kanzure> where'd you buy it? name? details
15:21 < Martyn> 3M Duro Glass Weld
15:21 < Martyn> it's a clear, UV curing glass glue
15:21 < Martyn> used for glass to glass bonds
15:23 < Martyn> It's a urethane acrylate ester
15:23 < Martyn> I think it's trade name is Ritelok
15:27 < biohackernoob> yes/no,,,,?
15:31  * biohackernoob just realized he didnt ask a yes/ no question :P
15:32 < biohackernoob> so quick or take a long time?
15:33 < kanzure> it really depends. sometimes gene expression can switch on and off within a few minutes
15:37 < biohackernoob> ok so i wont have to wait 24 hours or anything
15:37 < biohackernoob> ?
15:38 < biohackernoob> if i wait 5-20 min i should be good right?
15:38 < biohackernoob> maybe 5-30?
15:38 < kanzure> waiting 24h requires that you wait at least 5min and at least 30min so what's the problem? either way you're waiting at least 5min
15:38 < biohackernoob> or better yet, i could experiment with that and find out how long it takes XD
15:39 < kanzure> and in the worst case you're waiting 24h anyway
15:39 < biohackernoob> true
15:40 < biohackernoob> ok, so back to selecting a plasmid.... so far the only good one i know of is: pUCD615 but i can't find where to purchase it, or anything like it for that matter
15:49 < biohackernoob> just found another.. pHK555, and there seems to be more info about it. reading....
15:53 < Martyn> biohackernoob : I know this may sound like a complete shot in the dark ... but have you considered finding someone who does these experiments and having them mentor you?
15:54 < biohackernoob> not really... because i figured since im just doing this for kicks that they wont be interested in wasting their time teaching me :/ maybe im wrong?
15:54 < Martyn> biohackernoob : If you're in the Austin area, I'm sure there are plenty of researchers in the University of Texas who .. if approached politely .. perhaps.
15:55 < biohackernoob> im at UCLA
15:55 < Martyn> biohackernoob : Even better, there is a large bioscience program there
15:56 < Martyn> What year?
15:56 < biohackernoob> but how do i approach someone with something like this? hey, i want to make glowing plants for fun. can you help me?
15:56 < Martyn> Pretty much
15:56 < biohackernoob> freshman undergrad :S
15:56 < Martyn> Maybe better, find someone who is doing something related and ask "Hi, I'd like to know more about what you do..."
15:58 < biohackernoob> but then they ask what experience i have, and all i've done is AP chem and AP bio.... and im a comp sci major :P
15:58 < genehackerAFK> so bioluminescent genes in plants tend to be disappointing
15:58 < kanzure> nah, they like helping hands
15:59 < kanzure> i was working in a molecular biology lab before i was a freshman
15:59 < genehackerAFK> so don't be trying to make some luminescent roses to light the garden path just yet
15:59 < kanzure> they wanted to assimilate my brain early or something
15:59 < Martyn> Heh.. no
16:00 < biohackernoob> but i kinda want to avoid doing work for other people if possible... this is just something i want to try out XD
16:00 < Martyn> You're not likely to be able to make glowing roses .. /flourescent/ roses, maybe
16:00 < kanzure> they will especially like you if you're willing to wash dishes
16:00 < biohackernoob> why not glowing roses?
16:00 < genehackerAFK> you can make glowing roses
16:00 < genehackerAFK> they will be very dim
16:00 < biohackernoob> why dim?
16:00 < genehackerAFK> I looked into doing something like this once
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16:01 < Martyn> genehackerAFK : There isn't a lot of flow in the petals
16:01 < Martyn> it's kind of hard to get lots of ATP in a petal.
16:01 < genehackerAFK>  well the stalk will glow a bit
16:01 < kanzure> biohackernoob: if you want, tell us where you are, and someone in here probably knows someone who can introduce you to someone appropriate, or give a recommendation
16:01 < Martyn> *nod*
16:01 < kanzure> if you found your way in here i'm sure they will be happy to help
16:01 < genehackerAFK> luciferase in plants tends to be disappointing is all I know
16:02 < biohackernoob> i said, UCLA
16:02 < kanzure> oh sorry
16:02 < kanzure> yeah we have goons in LA
16:02 < biohackernoob> im sure you do :P
16:02 < Martyn> On the other hand, they already -have- bred in a nicely flourescing pigment into a rose.  I saw a couple of them at a flower show in Fort Lauderdale "The future of roses..."
16:02 < kanzure> let's see.. um.
16:02 < Martyn> Sure, it needs a UV light ... but hey ...
16:03 < biohackernoob> im just not too interested in committing time to other ppls projects... im not trying to be selfish or anything, i just have other hobbies too....
16:03 < genehackerAFK> hobbies like?
16:03 < kanzure> some times people are cool enough to let you in on the lab meetings and just being around to talk with
16:03 < kanzure> other times people aren't so awesome
16:03 < biohackernoob> building shortwave radios, programming computer games, ect
16:03 < genehackerAFK> oh
16:03 < genehackerAFK> are you taking o-chem?
16:03 < biohackernoob> nope
16:07 < genehackerAFK> Martyn what are you doing with glass glue, are you perhaps doing something with high grade optics?
16:10 < Martyn> I'm building gel elecrophoresis boxes for a friend in San Francisco
16:10 < Martyn> I need to finish 10, then pop them in the mail to him tomorrow morning
16:11 < Martyn> ( I found my tube of glue in the end .. it was still in the trunk of the car, hiding under the "Dominon: seaside" game box)
16:15 < Martyn> I love UV curing glues...
16:15 < Martyn> easy to position the pieces in the fixure, until I'm satisfied that there are no bubbles or gaps .... then turn on the UV lamp and /poof/
16:15 < Martyn> 30 seconds later .. hard glue
16:18 < genehackerAFK> oh
16:36 < kanzure> genehackerAFK: when are you back in austin
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17:04 < kanzure> http://www.thinkgeek.com/tauntaun taun taun sleeping bag
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17:13 < biohackernoob> o man HEPES buffer is expensive O.o
17:13 < biohackernoob> like $200 for 500 mL :(
17:13 < biohackernoob> i only need like 60mL....
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17:21 < kanzure> observation of molecular orbital gating: http://designfiles.org/papers/Observation%20of%20molecular%20orbital%20gating.pdf
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17:42 < kanzure> ybit: are you alive today?
18:06 < nsh> eiyo
18:07 < kanzure> neia?
18:17 < genehackerAFK> isn't ybit in oklahoma?
18:18 < kanzure> alabama
18:34 < kanzure> todo: http://www.guykawasaki.com/
18:57 < kanzure> interesting how longevity-interests recently exploded on diybio
18:57 < kanzure> i didn't know there was that many of us lurking
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20:19 < kanzure> hey Spance3000 
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20:43 < kanzure> fenn: freecad seems to be using opencascade
21:07 < kanzure> and it's terrible/hard to use
21:08 < kanzure> god why can't i have a simple "click to rotate" function in something using opencascade
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22:26 < ybit> heyo
22:27 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2009-12-26-skeinforge.png
22:27 < kanzure> holy shit wtf is wrong with this world
22:27 < fenn> yarr. the backlog has defeated me
22:28 < ybit> you suck
22:28  * ybit just got through with it
22:28 < ybit> fenn: all you need to know is that you are needed at some conf
22:28 < fenn> too many n00bs
22:28 < kanzure> noob to boob ratio is off :(
22:28 < fenn> taxin' my spirit
22:29 < ybit> i'm kind of alive, i should be out of it in about an hour as this trazadone kicks in
22:29  * ybit was cutting down trees with a chainsaw today
22:30 < fenn> omg skeinforge is so terrible
22:30 < katsmeow-afk> making a log fabhouse, ybit?
22:30 < ybit> kanzure: ask me to finish that script when i'm not lazy, i.e. after the weekend is over
22:31 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: heh, no, had to cut down some trees so that we can haul dirt in
22:31 < katsmeow-afk> o
22:31 < katsmeow-afk> large log fabhouse might look nice
22:31 < ybit> need to fix a part on the tractor so i can bush hog, then we'll bring in the bulldozer 
22:32  * ybit isn't a fan of wooden houses
22:32 < ybit> i do have a trailer i'm considering putting a few hundred in
22:32 < katsmeow-afk> slab the logs and attach to the sides of a house that's less fuel-looking
22:32 < katsmeow-afk> sawn length wise
22:33 < katsmeow-afk> 2 "logs" for the price of one
22:33 < ybit> ..so i can go ahead and live on the property... but i need power... and i don't want to pay for a damn pole to be placed on the land, because supposedly once it's there, it's there for good
22:33 < ybit> and supposedly it's about $30/10ft
22:33 < katsmeow-afk> how much power do you require?
22:34 < ybit> i haven't figured it up yet
22:34 < katsmeow-afk> well, then i cannot suggest anything yet
22:34 < ybit> feel free to suggest away for the fun of it :)
22:34 < ybit> it's irc, it's allowed
22:35 < katsmeow-afk> i was gonna say run s trech 2ft down where the driveway goes, before it's graveled/cherted, and lay in 2 inch cheap grey pvc to pull wire in later
22:35 < katsmeow-afk> then put a small service hut at the road for the utilities to hit
22:35 < katsmeow-afk> lay in the water too
22:36 < katsmeow-afk> at 2ft, you sholdn't have freeze problems
22:37 < katsmeow-afk> you can pull 100amp service, triplex, in 2inch pvc, iirc
22:37 < katsmeow-afk> and the triplex is cheap,, rather
22:38 < ybit> we have large metal tubes
22:38 < ybit> i don't even know what they are called
22:38 < katsmeow-afk> conduit?
22:39 < ybit> ah
22:39 < katsmeow-afk> i set a trailer service pole (10ft tall) at the road, all plumbing and electrical on my property is mine, utilities stop at that pole
22:39 < ybit> i was googling away, closes thing i could find was 'square tubing'
22:39 < katsmeow-afk> they wanted to put two poles on my place
22:39 < ybit> it's been sitting on the land for quite some time unused, we have various sizes of conduits
22:40 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:40 < Aliks> finally back
22:40 < katsmeow-afk> i wanted all service underground, they said no, i said i'd do it myself then, and i did
22:40 < Aliks> sheesh
22:40 < kanzure> hello aliks
22:40 < ybit> hi Aliks 
22:40 < Aliks> hey kanzure
22:40 < Aliks> my laptop got unplugged and its battery is totally dead
22:40 < ybit> kanzure: i've been into wikiversity and p2pu, maybe i'm the guy you were referencing
22:40 < Aliks> then had to go somewhere
22:40 < kanzure> ybit: sadly not
22:40 < kanzure> ybit: there was someone else
22:41 < ybit> though michel knows the guy over p2pu
22:41 < Aliks> you were mentioning something in need of some web dev... feel free to shoot me some info on what it needs
22:41 < ybit> it needs a good dosage of web 2.0
22:42 < kanzure> Aliks: did you see it? http://heybryan.org:8081
22:42 < kanzure> it looks terrible because it is
22:42 < ybit> s/omnifab/fabhow
22:42 < kanzure> whatever
22:44 < ybit> speaking of p2pu, i find it funny that i'm the only one ever in #p2pu even though it's mentioned on the site as a point of contact
22:44 < kanzure> i can't remember who PeerInfinity is
22:44 < kanzure> but i think he's the contact point for that?
22:44 < ybit> "IRC/Webchat: #p2pu on irc.freenode.net, or use the web client at http://p2pu.org/chat"
22:45 < kanzure> Aliks: so yeah, it's supposed to be a website to kill http://thingiverse.com/ and http://instructables.com/ 
22:45 < kanzure> in the backend it's running OpenCASCADE 
22:45 < kanzure> so it's literally a CAD kernel exposed to the web
22:45 < kanzure> projects are maintained in git repositories
22:57 < Aliks> back, was making update to my other site
22:57 < Aliks> yeah I did see it last time
22:57 < Aliks> looking at your competition now
22:57 < kanzure> it's not "exact" competition since the sites serve different purposes, but it's the closest thing i can point you at
22:57 < kanzure> i actually hate their designs
22:57 < kanzure> we just need to look better than that crap
22:58 < Aliks> right
22:58 < kanzure> or "not suck as much as presently"
22:58 < Aliks> got any ideas what you want it to look like?
22:58 < kanzure> anyway, if you drop some tips or ideas that would be awesome
22:59 < fenn> Aliks: i personally want something simple and reliable
22:59 < fenn> even on weird browsers that don't have every stupid proprietary plugin installed
22:59 < Aliks> http://www.templatesbox.com/ for-pay templates (to browse), http://www.oswd.org (free)
22:59 < kanzure> haha everyone i talk with just says take someone else's template
22:59 < kanzure> i should just take thingiverse's and scratch out their name
22:59 < Aliks> well or get a better one
22:59 < Aliks> and the thing is, basically I'm saying, find a template that's CLOSE to what you want
23:00 < Aliks> and then it's easier to tweak it
23:00 < Aliks> rather than start from nothing and change it 7 times
23:00 < kanzure> back in my day, we wrote our xhtml from scratch
23:00 < Aliks> I still do
23:00 < Aliks> lol
23:00 < kanzure> god i feel old
23:00 < Aliks> I dont use any editors other than a color highlighter
23:00 < Aliks> mainly I look at templates for ideas/inspiration, since I'm more of a coder than a "designer"
23:00 < fenn> xhtml? what's that? some newfangled html extension?
23:00 < kanzure> no
23:01 < Aliks> I can do some design, but it's not my #1 specialty
23:01 < fenn> </oldfart>
23:01 < kanzure> xhtml is strict html
23:01 < kanzure> well, sort of
23:01 < kanzure> i don't know the exact w3 history
23:01 < Aliks> but yeah I never ever use the XHTML that comes with a template even if I end up using their layout... usually I just rechop the images and make my own CSS/xhtml to display it
23:01 < kanzure> how do you chop your images? most people used to do something with photoshop iirc
23:02 < kanzure> and then had terrible tables with background images everywhere
23:02 < Aliks> I also chop in either photoshop or paintshop
23:02 < Aliks> tables/divs/other depends on the type of layout it is
23:02 < Aliks> I mean in reality EVERYONE chops images that way, it's a totally separate part of the process
23:03 < kanzure> sure
23:03 < Aliks> in production shops you usually have a dedicated "graphic designer/layout man" who creates photoshop images of the site
23:03 < kanzure> i just mean that creating a layout completely out of graphics
23:03 < kanzure> makes for big downloads on the end-user
23:03 < Aliks> nah
23:03 < Aliks> not if you optimize
23:03 < kanzure> what?
23:03 < Aliks> like you dont actually chop out the ENTIRE background and make it the background
23:03 < Aliks> you chop a 1 px wide slice
23:03 < Aliks> and do repeat-x or repeat-y in CSS
23:03 < Aliks> etc.
23:03 < kanzure> i see
23:04 < kanzure> yes i guess
23:04 < Aliks> basically you want to find graphics that are easily "optimizable"
23:04 < Aliks> you use photoshop to get the exact clean, good looking effects you want
23:05 < Aliks> but keeping in mind you dont want colors everywhere all over the page that would force you to chop out these huge 200px by 200px squares of images
23:05 < Aliks> so mostly you just focus on buttons etc.
23:05 < kanzure> have you ever seen csszengarden?
23:05 < Aliks> yeah
23:05 < Aliks> they're actually total shit
23:05 < kanzure> oh?
23:05 < Aliks> yeah, in my opinion, from a production design standpoint
23:05 < kanzure> is there something better?
23:05 < Aliks> well its not about the look really
23:05 < Aliks> it's about, how flexible is that stuff really?
23:05 < kanzure> they were showing off a bit "look how much bang for the buck we get"
23:05 < Aliks> their stuff is nice dealing with their specific example
23:05 < Aliks> but in real situations their approach often doesnt work
23:05 < kanzure> but if there's something else that's a better example, please show
23:06 < kanzure> ah
23:06 < Aliks> also they use absolute positioning all over the place
23:06 < kanzure> ouch
23:06 < kanzure> yes i hate absolutes
23:06 < Aliks> its not about the look
23:06 < Aliks> you can make anything look good, CSS or not
23:06 < ybit> katsmeow-afk: i was under the impression that it's illegal for you to lay your own underground power cables to direct energy from transmission lines, i.e. you have to pay for the city to hook up the power... that is unless you aren't linked into them
23:06 < Aliks> it's about, in the real world, how much time/money/flexibility does it have
23:06 < Aliks> er ... have/take
23:06 < Aliks> like, I know guys that refuse to use tables categorically on layouts
23:07 < Aliks> guess what.. they dont work for me
23:07 < kanzure> you have people working for you?
23:07 < Aliks> I subcontract frequently
23:07 < Aliks> I have people I work with consistently
23:07 < ybit> fenn: told you i was the only one in #p2pu :P
23:07 < kanzure> cool, cool
23:07 < Aliks> I can get something that looks right in all browsers in like.. 1 or 2 hours that have taken them DAYS to try to do with divs
23:07 < Aliks> because they try to do it the "ideologically correct" way
23:07 < Aliks> which kills profit margin
23:07 < fenn> please don't swear
23:08 < kanzure> hah
23:08 < Aliks> huh?
23:08 < ybit> 'profit margin'
23:08 < Aliks> whats wrong with profit?
23:08 < fenn> it's the devil
23:08 < ybit> hiss
23:08 < Aliks> its so not the devil
23:08 < Aliks> what you guys want to work all day for some grey gruel?
23:08 < kanzure> Aliks: we'd rather not have to have money
23:08 < Aliks> come home to a shack?
23:08 < Aliks> well thats what I'm saying, in the world as it is people work for money
23:08 < kanzure> sorry but this isn't optimal
23:09 < kanzure> anyway
23:09 < Aliks> when the revolution happens, let me know
23:09 < fenn> people have a hard time understanding what we mean, so forget about it
23:09 < kanzure> neither are tables ;) but i'm not ideologically categorically excluding them :)
23:09 < kanzure> i think i tried that for a while
23:09 < kanzure> couldnt' get much done
23:09 < kanzure> *couldn't
23:09 < Aliks> I'm not a greedy person, but I do think there's not something wrong in principle with profit....
23:09 < Aliks> I mean, assuming a fair economic model anyway
23:09 < Aliks> currently there's a lot of unfair gain going on
23:09 < kanzure> we're not talking about economics
23:09 < kanzure> seriously, forget it
23:10 < Aliks> lol ok
23:10 < Aliks> we'll have to talk about that sometime
23:10 < Aliks> but... I'm about to run to get some coffee.. I'll be back in like an hour
23:10 < ybit> hah, you guys and gals remember the 'so you want to be a hax0r' email i sent to my little cousins? here's the response: 'which one do i pick so i can steal my neigbors high speed internet"
23:10 < kanzure> no?
23:10 < fenn> ybit: network operations center
23:11 < ybit> "make your computer wifi enabled, and then get back with me" should be my response
23:11 < fenn> or just go to college, apparently
23:12  * fenn says from the screen session hosted on davinci
23:12 < fenn> we need to get a ronja unit up on the bell tower
23:13 < kanzure> heh does anyone remember the poor math grad who came in here thinking i was in his class?
23:13 < ybit> who offered free hosting recently?
23:13 < kanzure> huh?
23:13 < kanzure> i have some
23:13 < kanzure> but what are you talking about?
23:14 < ybit> okay good
23:14 < kanzure> bkero's servers always seem laggy when i ssh in, ybit
23:14 < ybit> marcin just contacted me, he wants a mirror in place for openfarmtech.org
23:14 < ybit> same here
23:14 < kanzure> oh i'll gladly do that
23:14 < kanzure> hells yeah
23:15 < ybit> great, i'll forward the email your way
23:15 < kanzure> wonder why he asked you
23:17 < ybit> i told him he needed to mirror awhile back and we got into a discussion about it
23:17 < bkero> kanzure: You SSH in to my server?
23:17 < bkero> Which server?
23:17 < kanzure> bkero: 69.163.39.14
23:18 < ybit> bkero: would there be any chance of hosting, say, redmine there?
23:18 < kanzure> what is redmine?
23:18 < ybit> http://www.redmine.org
23:18 < kanzure> ybit: i have a fast connection off of pdx.edu if we want some more reliable hosting than OSOU
23:18 < kanzure> OSOUSO :p
23:18 < kanzure> bkero: of course i'm just yanking your chain.
23:18 < kanzure> but really, the ssh lag is kind of nasty
23:19 < fenn> aww dillo was dropped from ubuntu
23:19 < kanzure> poor dillo
23:19 < ybit> kanzure: is the pdx host static or vps?
23:19 < kanzure> it's uh, svcs
23:21 < kanzure> it's like a virtual private server except the kernel is shared
23:21 < kanzure> don't think my explanation is good
23:21 < kanzure> bkero: have you used svcs before?
23:23 < bkero> SVC's, like solaris shit?
23:23 < bkero> ybit: Yea, I've seen redmine before, I can't get it to scale.
23:24 < bkero> kanzure: That's not at OSU, that's my colo in portland.
23:24 < bkero> kanzure: traceroute to blueheaven?
23:24 < bkero> Oh, SVC, like containers
23:25 < kanzure> huh it's in portland too? isn't that where pdx.edu is 
23:25 < bkero> Yes
23:25  * ybit wonders... how exactly do people mirror a mediawiki site?
23:25 < bkero> Bandwidth for my colo is through cogent, I think pdx.net is through nero for commodity bandwidth, and i2
23:25 < ybit> i can backup everything, but mirroring...
23:25 < ybit> that would require customized scripts, no?
23:25 < bkero> Probably
23:25 < kanzure> you probably backup the database periodically
23:26 < kanzure> there's likely a script already written for that
23:26 < kanzure> on a cron job probably
23:26 < ybit> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Fullsitebackup
23:26 < ybit> that's a backup
23:26 < kanzure> bkero: what do you want from the tracert?
23:27 < fenn> maybe server 1 serves pages A-D server 2 serves E-J etc so you never have cross-server editing conflicts
23:27 < kanzure> sorbonas.info, gi1-19.ccr01.pdx01.atlas.cogentco.com, te4-3.ccr01.sea01.atlas.cogentco.com
23:27 < kanzure> i've never mirrored a wiki that needs to be resynchronized
23:27 < kanzure> gee this feels like a job for distributed revision control
23:27 < kanzure> owait
23:27 < ybit> oh, there are plenty of articles on mirroring mediawiki sites
23:27 < fenn> btw kanzure did you ever backup davinci?
23:27 < kanzure> partially
23:28 < kanzure> they only wanted /var/www/
23:28 < kanzure> but i can go back and do everything else
23:28 < bkero> kanzure: pastebin the whole thing
23:28 < fenn> ok
23:28 < fenn> good enough for me
23:29 < kanzure> bkero: can you install pastebinit? :p
23:29 < kanzure> http://openmanufacturing.org/bkero_traceroute
23:29  * fenn has to go to bed to wake up in time to go to the opera tomorrow (golly gee whatsits)
23:29 < ybit> maybe something like this is the way to go: http://scytale.name/blog/2009/11/announcing-levitation
23:30 < fenn> oh now my timezone handicap is backwards
23:31 < kanzure> glad to see someone's doing that, ybit
23:31 < ybit> oh
23:31 < ybit> bah
23:31 < ybit> wget --mirror
23:31 < ybit> that's all we need, he offered ftp access
23:31 < bkero> kanzure: patebinit?
23:31 < kanzure> pastebinit is a program to submit stuff to pastebin
23:31 < kanzure> but anyway, that link should give you the traceroute
23:32 < bkero> kanzure: Er, I meant atraceroute to bluheaven.ws
23:32 < bkero> That's going to DNS error :P
23:32 < bkero> blueheaven.ws
23:32 < kanzure> i thought "blueheaven" might have been in /etc/hosts or something
23:32 < bkero> Oh, no
23:32 < kanzure> ok updated
23:33 < kanzure> ssh is still sluggish
23:33 < kanzure> just fyi
23:33 < kanzure> apparently i'm on maetel
23:33 < bkero> You just posted a traceroute from blueheaven.ws to blueheaven.ws
23:33 < bkero> I meant from your computer you're coming from
23:33 < kanzure> laadsl;kfa;ka
23:34 < bkero> Sorry, Maetel = blueheaven.ws
23:34 < kanzure> it gets really hung up at te4-4.ccr01.pdx01.atlas.cogentco.com
23:35 < kanzure> ok file updated
23:36 < bkero> Looks like you're hopping straight from roadrunner to cogent
23:36 < bkero> austin->houston->dallas/fort worth->denver->seattle->portland
23:37 < bkero> Try SSHing to your school, then to blueheaven.ws
23:38 < kanzure> i don't know if this is because of the double effect or not
23:38 < kanzure> it seems slightly more responsive
23:38 < kanzure> yep definitely
23:39 < bkero> Guess your ISPs peering with cogent is done through at 14.4 modem or something
23:39 < kanzure> wonder why ybit also experiences this, does his isp also suck?
23:40 < kanzure> give me an isp that doesn't suck, and you'll get yourself a new resident
23:40 < bkero> Does ybit have roadrunner?
23:40 < kanzure> ybit: ping
23:40 < ybit> pong
23:40 < kanzure> yes? no?
23:40 < bkero> My connection isn't lagging at all, and I'm at 1 bar of stolen 802.11b from a neighbors modem in rural montana
23:40 < ybit> no
23:41 < kanzure> looks liek comcast
23:41 < kanzure> bah bar isn't an actual unit :)
23:41 < bkero> I'm not sure how to get units from OS X
23:41 < ybit> er, google.com/linux says roadrunner is a supercomputer
23:42 < kanzure> roadrunner is also a brand of internet service offered by time warner cable
23:42 < bkero> rr.com
23:42 < kanzure> it's pure evil and should be avoided at all costs
23:42 < kanzure> anyway, thanks bkero
23:43 < bkero> -85dB signal strength, -86dB noise
23:43 < kanzure> btw use the "airport" command i think
23:43 < bkero> Negotiated 2megabit with it
23:43 < kanzure> (why do i know this?)
23:43 < bkero> it's /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport
23:43 < bkero> Not in the $PATH because...fuck, I don't know
23:43 < ybit> bkero: the osl connection has been better recently
23:43 < ybit> it hasn't been as slow 
23:43 < bkero> ybit: blueheaven.ws is in Portland now :)
23:45 < ybit> bkero: i see you didn't mention xmonad on your post about WMs...
23:46 < bkero> ybit: Tried it, don't know if it was worth mentioning
23:46 < ybit> why not?
23:47 < ybit> bkero: you could also try bluetile, it's an offspin of xmonad, more click friendly
23:47 < ybit> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/bluetile-0.2
23:47 < bkero> I don't like programming my window manager in haskell :P
23:47 < kanzure> heh
23:47 < ybit> well, okay, i suppose that's an acceptable argument :)
23:47 < kanzure> he has a point, ybit
23:48 < bkero> Or lua
23:48  * bkero cringes
23:48 < bkero> Musca's pretty cool, but I've had to hack the keyconfigs all to hell to get it to behave like wmii
23:49  * ybit is off to bed
23:49 < ybit> enjoy the opera tomorrow fenn
23:49 < ybit> ..i guess
23:49 < bkero> oprah
23:49  * ybit doesn't know if the opera would be enjoyable
23:49 < bkero> Oh yea, my gift to you
23:49 < bkero> http://staff.osuosl.org/~bkero/DEFCON%2017%20hacking%20conference%20presentation%20by%20Adam%20Savage%20-%20Failure%20-%20video.m4v
23:49 < bkero> Adam Savage's talk at Defcon :)
23:49 < ybit> gracias
23:50 < ybit> y bn
23:51 < kanzure> night
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