--- Day changed Sun Dec 27 2009
00:00 < Aliks> back from coffee
00:01 < Aliks> man, why have I been hangin out on Undernet all these years?
00:03 < Aliks> so what is everybody here working on?
00:03 < Aliks> I know sort of what kanzure is workin on
00:03 < Aliks> but what about the others
00:05 < bkero> I'm working on awesomeness
00:05 < Aliks> lol
00:05 < Aliks> well you're in the right place at least
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01:51 < Aliks> yawn
01:56 < katsmeow-afk> what an awesome yawn!
02:06 < Aliks> lol
02:06 < Aliks> whats up kats?
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02:07 < Aliks> bah booted
02:09 < katsmeow-afk> sleepy
02:09 < katsmeow-afk> was seeing what had recently crashed
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02:12 < katsmeow-afk> doing a registry search for LanmanServer\Parameters
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02:25 < katsmeow-afk>  ERROR : Delayed Write Failed :   Windows was unable to save all the data for the file [ Delayed Write Failed  Windows was unable to save all the data for the file 
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03:14 < Aliks> hmmm... what to do next...
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06:32 < kanzure> fenn: are you still in seattle? you should meet up with wulfdesign (larry james) http://wulfdesign.blogspot.com/ http://www.thingiverse.com/wulfdesign
06:33 < kanzure> oh wait, you were leaving today
06:53 < technologiclee3> what was the 'new studio' in Austin martyn mentioned?
06:56 < kanzure> les' place
07:09 < technologiclee3> ok
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12:06 < kanzure> Pro-Aging Effects of Glucose Signaling through a G Protein-Coupled Glucose Receptor in Fission Yeast http://designfiles.org/papers/Pro-Aging%20Effects%20of%20Glucose%20Signaling%20through%20a%20G%20Protein-Coupled%20Glucose%20Receptor%20in%20Fission%20Yeast.pdf
12:06 < kanzure> Targeting breast stem cells with the cancer preventive compounds curcumin and piperine http://designfiles.org/papers/Targeting%20breast%20stem%20cells%20with%20the%20cancer%20preventive%20compounds%20curcumin%20and%20piperine.pdf
12:07 < kanzure> from transplexity
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12:42 < kanzure> hello biohackernoob 
12:42 < biohackernoob> hey
12:42  * kanzure goes to get breakfast
12:42 < kanzure> uh, lunch
12:45 < biohackernoob> i was reading this: http://www.its.caltech.edu/~bjorker/Ca-P_Transfection_MDCK.pdf its about transfecting DNA directly into a eukaryotic cell. it got me thinking: what's stopping someone from just injecting the plasmid into the cell instead of forcing it to take the plasmid up naturally?
13:11 < kanzure> look up "gene gun"
13:12 < biohackernoob> ya ive read about that
13:12 < biohackernoob> but why not use a needle?
13:18 < kanzure> too big
13:18 < kanzure> some people use AFM probe tips
13:18 < kanzure> biohackernoob: check this out: http://designfiles.org/papers/Single%20cell%20transfection%20using%20plasmid%20decorated%20AFM%20probes%20-%2030%20percent%20efficiency.pdf
13:20 < biohackernoob> k
13:22 < kanzure> is that what you were thinking of?
13:23 < kanzure> also don't know if this works with somatic cell nuclear transfer
13:24 < kanzure> (which doesn't require AFM probe tips)
13:26 < biohackernoob> ya this sorta sounds like what im thinking of
13:27 < biohackernoob> so AFM probes are basically really small needles?
13:27 < kanzure> AFM is "atomic force microscopy"
13:27 < kanzure> usually these probe tips are made by dipping something like tungsten in an acid, and drawing it up
13:27 < kanzure> as it pulls up, the acid etches away the wire
13:27 < kanzure> so when you finally remove it, the tip is at a very fine point
13:27 < kanzure> in particular AFM is used for atom-resolution microscopy most of the time
13:28 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_force_microscope
13:28 < biohackernoob> ok, well, thinking rediculously: what if u used a bee's stinger instead of a needle to transfer the plasmid? XD bee stingers are much more of a fine point compared to needles
13:29 < kanzure> heh they added a photo to the article: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Atomic_force_microscope_by_Zureks.jpg
13:30 < kanzure> actually that technique i described is probably more frequently used for STM
13:30 < kanzure> AFM peeps like to talk about "cantilevers" (which i think are made by MEMS processes sometimes? dunno)
13:31 < kanzure> anyway, the way it works is that the AFM "taps" the atoms and because of this there is a deflection in the cantilever beam 
13:31 < kanzure> there's a mirror on the cantilever beam
13:31 < kanzure> light is used to measure the angle of the cantilever beam
13:31 < kanzure> which determines the relative "height" of the surface at whatever location the AFM is at
13:33 < kanzure> biohackernoob: AFM probe tips are much sharper than a bee's stinger 
13:33 < kanzure> if you move it too fast, carbon atoms will rip it to shreds
13:34 < biohackernoob> you really need something THAT small? plant cells are relatively large....
13:37 < kanzure> ion beam etching is a popular technique for AFM probe tips (had to look it up)
13:39 < kanzure> like i said, with somatic cell nuclear transfer, people use much larger needles
13:39 < kanzure> so i was looking for a few moments there for papers on that
13:39 < biohackernoob> hm.. a wasp stinger is about 30 microns wide... and a plant cell is between 10 and 100... so close :P
13:40 < kanzure> in 2001 paper by cibelli they used a 5mm inner diameter needle for SCNT of human cells
13:41 < biohackernoob> did that kill the cell?
13:41 < kanzure> does anyone have access to "Somatic cell cloning without micromanipulators.
13:42 < kanzure> biohackernoob: no, SCNT is a method for transferring the nuclear contents from one cell to another
13:43 < biohackernoob> well thanks for the info
13:44 < biohackernoob> ill read a bit more and come back, i gtg atm
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13:50 < ybit> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KVMUPJJG5M
13:50 < ybit> mythbusters: nasa moon landing hoax
14:14 < technologiclee3> 5 micrometers? or milimeters?
14:15 < kanzure> the cibelli paper? it was 5 millimeters 
14:22 < kanzure> wonderful. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&num=100&q=i965_dri.so+segfault+30+ip&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
14:22 < kanzure> looks like i'm the first result
14:23 < technologiclee3> i am waiting for my echo - when i mentioned labview on Open Manu - it is interesting to see how long it takes
14:23 < kanzure> what?
14:23 < kanzure> didn't you mention it a few days ago?
14:24 < kanzure> oh wait, that was in "the free culture game"
14:24 < kanzure> technologiclee3: btw, oscomak is basically skdb, except paul fernhout never did anything with it
14:24 < technologiclee3> i took it that you were being sarcastic and having a problem with a seg fault that you have not found an answer to - so find yourelf in a search
14:25 < technologiclee3> ya - i guess it was yesterday
14:25 < kanzure> yes it was sarcasm
14:25 < technologiclee3> the garden simulator looked pretty detailed tho
14:26 < kanzure> what do you mean "tho"?
14:30 < technologiclee3> though - although - in this context - i did not read thru the OSCOMAK stuff but felt that i got the just of it from the front page and his posts - even tho he did not develop it - he does have the garden simulaor and it seems detailed - maybe SKDB could benifit from it - i saw a robot tending a garden -but i do not think the robot 'knew' what it was doing
14:30 < technologiclee3> *jist
14:32 < technologiclee3> a google alert for LabView just came in - the Open Manu post is not on this one either - it's interesting to watch for the 'echo'
14:33 < technologiclee3> i wonder if i did a search for it - if it would trip the alert???
14:34 < technologiclee3> wow i did not find it in a search
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14:41 < technologiclee3> also google translate has been working or hung on this site for several minutes - not that it need looking at http://www.astro-portail-star.fr/
14:44 < technologiclee3> if the servers are like neurons ...  i like to push the web to make connections - activate services - put things together that should work but seem to have never been done before - i think the web learns - if nothing else i hope an error message is seen by some admin that can make it work
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15:41 < kanzure> hello eleitl 
15:43 < kanzure> ybit: under the "Device" section in /etc/X11/xorg.conf on your acer, set Option "GLX" "False" and Option "DRI" "False". this should get skdb/pythonOCC working
15:45 < eleitl> all is quiet on the eastern front
16:02 < ybit> kanzure: ah, so you fixed your problem as well then
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16:02  * ybit edits his xorg.conf
16:03 < ybit> i find it funny that a relevant keyword for openmanufacturing.org is 'lazy' 
16:04 < kanzure> hey Aliks 
16:04 < kanzure> we're fixing our xorg.conf files on our acer laptops to get skdb running :p
16:05 < ybit> http://adl.serveftp.org/misc/Keywords_openmanufacturing_org_20091227T220154Z.csv
16:06 < Martyn> Heh.. Acer ZA3 and the horrible Poulsbo chipset
16:06 < kanzure> ybit: if that doesn't work, go back into your xorg.conf and comment out the "Load" lines for dri, glx, and dri2 under Section "Module"
16:06 < kanzure> ybit: (in addition to the previous changes)
16:06 < ybit> http://adl.serveftp.org/misc/PagesWithLinks_otherdomains_openmanufacturing_org_20091227T220601Z.csv
16:07 < ybit> noted
16:09 < eleitl> hey kanzure, do check the spacetraveler thing out hands-on.
16:09 < kanzure> which spacetraveler thing
16:09 < kanzure> oh the device
16:09 < kanzure> yes
16:09 < eleitl> space navigator, space traveler was the precursor device.
16:10 < kanzure> looks like it's $90~ used
16:10 < eleitl> it should be $60 new, or so.
16:10 < kanzure> ah ebay has one going in 3h for $30 USD
16:11 < eleitl> you need the personal edition one. 54 USD new.
16:11 < eleitl> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=spacenavigator+buy&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=9491064525894121133&ei=cds3S6mzD4OK_AajjrXxBA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCEQ8wIwBA#ps-sellers
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16:12 < kanzure> these links are growing nastier and nastier
16:12 < Utopiah> (one can either use Vimperator autocmd or his IRC client to "clean" them before sending them)
16:14 < kanzure> eleitl: check the private messages i sent you?
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16:20 < technologiclee3> hey i need SKDB on an acer
16:21 < kanzure> is your acer working again?
16:21 < technologiclee3> do up the desptop while i'm at it
16:21 < technologiclee3> at the moment - good for practice if nothing else
16:22 < kanzure> just remember to read skdb/doc/installing - that's step-by-step how to get things working
16:22 < technologiclee3> ok - i'll see what i can do
16:22 < kanzure> at least on debian and the latest ubuntu
16:22 < kanzure> ok just tell us whenever you get stuck
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16:23 < technologiclee3> haha  my search found 'Serial Killer Data base'   see that one yet?
16:23 < kanzure> yeah i've seen it :/
16:24 < technologiclee3> we gotta get the real thing listed above that - how many hits can they have?
16:25 < technologiclee3> you could add serial connection and killer app to the keyword list - not even untrue - quite
16:26 < technologiclee3> so with SKDB install - i get your twitter
16:26 < kanzure> what?
16:27 < kanzure> you get my twitter?
16:27 < kanzure> oh "skdb install" as the query, you get "twitter" as a result
16:27 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/dokuwiki/skdb is what you're looking for
16:27 < kanzure> it's in the /topic
16:27 < ybit> i dunno about the spacenavigator
16:28 < ybit> seems like a lot of trouble compared to what you can do with a mouse
16:30 < technologiclee3> thx - yes - it was not on that twitter page tho - page   probly had to use the 'see more tweets' or whatever - the point is that eventually it should be super easy to find - maybe you could take advantage of the twitter thing to get links you want 'uprated'
16:30 < kanzure> technologiclee3: nanoengineer1/cad/src/dna/model/DnaChain.py and nanoengineer1/cad/src/cnt/model/NanotubeSegment.py -- these files are really messy
16:30 < technologiclee3> hey i should tweet my head off about my intersts - I don't think anyone is searching for them tho -
16:31 < kanzure> all of this code is pretty terrible
16:31 < kanzure> looks like one person worked on it, then another, and another
16:31 < technologiclee3> i have not been able to run it since formating the HD - just got netbeans 6.8 - lets see...   and the whole thing has been said to be messy - i say we strip out the pertinent equations and move on with it
16:31 < kanzure> i.e. no maintainer over its lifetime
16:32 < kanzure> i'm still looking around in it
16:32 < kanzure> hm. cad/src/protein/model/Peptide.py seems to be about peptides in CNTs, not about proteins?
16:34 < ybit> speaking of diy longevity projects, i talked to aubrey about this at the h+ summit, 
16:34 < ybit> i asked him why he was against diy efforts
16:34 < ybit> he said that he has since changed his mind 
16:35 < kanzure> how kind of him.
16:35 < ybit> especially since the sens undergrad initiative started
16:36 < ybit> hrm, not sure why i said that, guess i'll shup up now
16:40 < technologiclee3> is there an .sh file for the install   - to lazy to cut and pate? - if i don't have to...
16:41 < kanzure> you can chmod a+x installing and then do ./installing
16:41 < kanzure> but i think it will break somewhere and you won't know where the problem is
16:41 < kanzure> anyway try it
16:41 < kanzure> and we can always trace any errors i guess
16:46 < technologiclee3> chmod a+x   what?    ./installing what?   like  each step?    i'll just do it like last time
16:47 < kanzure> cd skdb/doc/
16:47 < kanzure> chmod a+x installing
16:47 < kanzure> ./installing
16:47 < technologiclee3> and if your goind to take the time to answer noob questions - it might be a good idea to either do the documantation at that time - or save the conversation to do so - or post as faq
16:48 < kanzure> yeah i should be writing tutorials right now
16:48 < kanzure> instead i'm reading through nanoengineer1 (looking at their _mendeleev dictionary)
16:48 < technologiclee3> just cut and past my stupid questions  - i started one somewhere...
16:49 < technologiclee3> sweeet   - you just do that  - i'lll keep myself occupied
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17:03 < kanzure> technologiclee3: openbabel might be a better cheminformatics tool to use http://openbabel.org/wiki/Using_OpenBabel_from_Python
17:04 < kanzure> dunno. anyway, back to writing tutorials..
17:04 < technologiclee3> ne-1 uses it in some way - i will look more into it
17:06 < technologiclee3> ok installing on both machines.... (SKDB)     and i  get this trying to run ne 1 in netbeans  - and it IS there and anything that could be related...ImportError: No module named PyQt4
17:07 < ybit> technologiclee3: what version of python are you using?
17:07 < ybit> python --version
17:08 < kanzure> sudo apt-get install python-qt4 python-qt4-gl
17:08 < kanzure> are you on debian or ubuntu?
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17:08 < ybit> it will be python-2.x-qt4 iirc
17:09 < ybit> ah, python-qt4 exists
17:09 < ybit> that works
17:09 < technologiclee3> ohhhh  -  wait   nebeans is using 2.6  ( now you have to set the path to python in it - but there is an auto detect)  - but from terminal using 2.5 i get the same error and a seg fault when i just use python
17:09  * ybit goes back to unbricking the wireless router
17:10 < technologiclee3> yes - i had them
17:10 < technologiclee3> ubuntu
17:14 < technologiclee3> oh - using my name - in IRC- makes the message popup in the status bar or Ubuntu now - very useful for getting ones attention in the circuis of windows  - just so everyone knows
17:18 < technologiclee3> kanzure: E: Couldn't find package libigraph
17:19 < technologiclee3> i dont remeber that last time
17:23 < technologiclee3> it is in the package manager as libigraph0
17:23 < kanzure> igraph might be in ubuntu, but if not, you'll have to download it on your own (this should be in the "installing" file too, btw)
17:24 < ybit> as long as you did echo "deb http://cneurocvs.rmki.kfki.hu /packages/binary/" | sudo tee -a /etc/apt/sources.list
17:24 < ybit> echo "deb-src http://cneurocvs.rmki.kfki.hu /packages/source/" | sudo tee -a /etc/apt/sources.list
17:24 < ybit> sudo apt-get update
17:24 < ybit> igraph will be available
17:26 < ybit> aside from traffic, google isn't picking up dokuwiki/skdb because it is linked via mailing lists
17:26 < ybit> looking at the webmaster tools for openmanufacturing, it doesn't include those links
17:29 < ybit> i would try tagging it via tumblr, bookmarking it with delicious, and linking it in wikis
17:30 < technologiclee3> what installing file ? - and i didn't do that last time but ok
17:30 < ybit> the installing file is located in the doc/ dir of skdb
17:30 < technologiclee3> no igraph is not to be found in the manager
17:31 < kanzure> did you listen to ybit?
17:34 < technologiclee3> yes - so dont  worry about igraph because it is there   -   or wait til i get to the git part and then it is in there...  - i think i ignored all errors and it just worked  'almost' last time      -  and yes google does not find the skdb install page so but some links out there
17:36 < kanzure> what does it mean to order "bone out" wings?
17:37 < ybit> technologiclee3: if you are having problems finding igraph, don't worry
17:37 < ybit> it isn't necessary
17:37 < kanzure> actually, it is :(
17:38 < kanzure> fenn incorporated it into the assembly graph stuff
17:38 < ybit> sure, but he can continue on without for the time being
17:52 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/analysis.20091227
17:52 < kanzure> lookie! data.
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18:09 < technologiclee1>  when i did this    sudo python setup.py install     i got this  but only on the laptop  - i gonna  just keep goin  http://pastebin.com/f610ac547
18:12 < kanzure> sudo apt-get install build-essential
18:12 < kanzure> "gcc" is used to compile stuff, it's in the "build-essential" package
18:12 < kanzure> dulwich is only required if you want to run the skdb web server 
18:13 < technologiclee3> E: Package python-psyco has no installation candidate
18:14 < kanzure> on my debian box "apt-cache search python-psyco" shows that there is an installation candidate
18:14 < ybit> same
18:14 < kanzure> anyway, just delete python-psyco from that line that you ran
18:14 < technologiclee3> the laptop is karmic - but having problems - maybe not take that seriously - i'll reinstall - later
18:15 < technologiclee3> ya it froze - make later now if it will reboot - onwards
18:16 < ybit> sigh, two more family events left
18:16 < ybit> luckily one isn't so bad: outing to see 'avatar' which starts in about 2 hours
18:17 < ybit> probably afk for the night
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18:21 < technologiclee3> in terminal and the package manager - only finds psyco documentation
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18:29 < technologiclee3> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=800926   Psyco will not be supported for x86 64 processors.    think i found my prob
18:31 < kanzure> you don't need psyco
18:31 < technologiclee3> but i had it running....   on the laptop? - ya when my power supply was out - but it is 64 bit too...
18:31 < technologiclee3> oh ya  - i ignored all errors  - onwards
18:37 < technologiclee3> sudo python setup.py build -NO_GEOM          NameError: name 'classic' is not defined
18:37 < kanzure> ybit's fault :)
18:37 < kanzure> if you open up the file "setup.py" you will need to fix line.. uh. let me check
18:38 < kanzure> well anyway, if you find where "-classic" is in the file, please surround it in quotes to fix that error
18:38 < technologiclee3> sudo cp -p /usr/lib/opencas/lib* /usr/lib/ 
18:38 < technologiclee3> cp: cannot stat `/usr/lib/opencas/lib*': No such file or directory
18:38 < kanzure> did you run the commands at the top of the file to install opencascade?
18:38 < kanzure> like sudo apt-get install libopencascade-visualization etc.
18:39 < technologiclee3> no -i'm just going down the list
18:39 < kanzure> it should have been at the very top of the file
18:39  * kanzure checks
18:40 < kanzure> yeah it was in the same line as psyco
18:40 < kanzure> that's why you should have deleted "python-psyco" from that line and run it again
18:40 < kanzure> so that all the opencascade libraries are installed
18:41 < technologiclee3> ohhhh - i thought it would do what it could
18:52 < technologiclee3> is this a prob? sudo cp -p /usr/lib/opencas/lib* /usr/lib/ cp: not writing through dangling symlink `/usr/lib/libmscmd.so'
18:53 < kanzure> could be. do this: sudo rum /usr/lib/libmscmd.so
18:54 < kanzure> then repeat the last step that you took
18:54 < technologiclee3> oops   i  kept going
18:56 < technologiclee3> ~/code$ sudo rum /usr/lib/libmscmd.so
18:56 < technologiclee3> sudo: rum: command not found
18:57 < kanzure> rm
18:57 < kanzure> not rum. sorry
18:59 < technologiclee3> well   how do i see if it runs first?
19:01 < kanzure> have you already done the -NO_GEOM step?
19:01 < kanzure> where you run python setup.py etc.?
19:02 < technologiclee3> yes i have dome it all now  - including the rm   then sudo, echo, source
19:02 < technologiclee3> wait  - no?
19:03 < technologiclee3> oh  ya
19:13 < technologiclee3> i think there should be 'how to run it' in the doc
19:15 < kanzure> how to run what?
19:16 < kanzure> to test if skdb is working, go to skdb/ and type: python paths.py
19:16 < kanzure> this will test the visualization
19:20 < technologiclee3> ImportError: No module named OCC.gp    -   so i have to do the k8 thing
19:22 < technologiclee3> is this the right place?
19:22 < technologiclee3> ECA = ['-O0','-march=%s'%platform.machine()]
19:24 < technologiclee3> ECA = ['-O0','-march=%k8%platform.machine()]   ?
19:24 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h104n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
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19:26 < kanzure> hey splicer
19:26 < kanzure> technologiclee3: instead of "%s" you should put "k8" and instead of "%platform.machine()" you should put nothing
19:28 < splicer> hi kanzure.. watching the video in the topic
19:29 < technologiclee3> ECA = ['-O0','-march=k8'()]
19:29 < technologiclee3> oops   the ()
19:30 < technologiclee3> ECA = ['-O0','-march=k8']
19:30 < kanzure> right
19:31 < technologiclee3> ImportError: No module named OCC.gp
19:31 < kanzure> yeah did you run python setup.py build -NO_GEOM ?
19:31 < kanzure> and then python setup.py install ?
19:31 < technologiclee3> i could have messed it up
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19:35 < technologiclee3> ~/code/skdb$ sudo python setup.py build -NO_GEOM  -   python: can't open file 'setup.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
19:35 < technologiclee3> this is the part where i take what i have learned and start from the beginnig
19:38 < kanzure> why
19:39 < kanzure> so if you look at the "installing" file, it tells you to run "python setup.py build -NO_GEOM" in ~/local/pythonocc/pythonocc-0.3/ or something
19:54 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:54 < Aliks> so where is the hplus roadmap anyway?
19:58 < kanzure> on a dead wiki
19:58 < kanzure> it wasn't very good
19:58  * kanzure just uploaded http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/graphs/ (er, it's still going, but still. pretty cool i think)
19:59 < kanzure> ooh. http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/graphs/emil_gilliam.png
20:00 < technologiclee3> it does sy that - but to the novice with so many instructions in between - it was not clear to me
20:01 < technologiclee3> ~/local/pythonocc/pythonOCC-0.3$ sudo python setup.py build -NO_GEOM        python: can't open file 'setup.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
20:01 < kanzure> yeah i think it's in the src/ subdirectory in that folder?
20:02 < technologiclee3> right - wasnt thinking
20:03 < technologiclee3> NameError: name 'classic' is not defined    you already told me what to do here...
20:04 < technologiclee3>  "-classic" is in the file, surround it in quotes to fix that error
20:05 < kanzure> huh
20:05 < kanzure> does it give you a line number
20:08 < technologiclee3> i'm using gedit
20:09 < technologiclee3> i have pythonOCC-0.3/src/setup.py open   - classic is not found
20:09 < Aliks> interesting, kanzure
20:10 < technologiclee3> File "setup.py", line 28, in <module>   import Modules    File "/home/l/local/pythonocc/pythonOCC-0.3/src/wrapper/Modules.py", line 20, in <module>   import environment   File "/home/l/local/pythonocc/pythonOCC-0.3/src/wrapper/environment.py", line 144, in <module
20:10 < Aliks> maybe I'm paranoid but when files on patents disappear from my computer I get nervous...
20:10 < Aliks> and I'm missing one lol
20:11 < technologiclee3> dont worry they will still sue you if you violate it  ; )
20:11 < Aliks> actually maybe this is a question I can ask you guys about
20:11 < Aliks> I have a way, I think, of reducing software etc. piracy significantly
20:12 < Aliks> but it isnt encryption or any junk like that
20:12 < Aliks> I'm not even sure if it's a patentable type of thing, but I was thinking about trying
20:12 < technologiclee3> don't use proprietary software.....
20:12 < Aliks> anyway, what do you think about releasing the idea for free?
20:12 < Aliks> and if I do that, what's the best way to do it?
20:12 < Aliks> I mean, announce it where?  I was thinkin Slashdot but that doesnt seem big enough
20:12 < technologiclee3> make the DRM guys pay thu the nose and give all the $  to open source
20:13 < Aliks> yeah
20:13 < Aliks> despite their DRM views I suspect they'd be inclined just to steal the idea
20:13 < Aliks> lol
20:15 < technologiclee3> there is   classic in environment.py     put  single quotes areoun it  ' '  ?
20:16 < technologiclee3> EXTRA_LIBS = [ -classic ,  -nomodernargs, 'm','stc++',lib_python]    - can i define classic?    what is classic?
20:18 < technologiclee3> stealing an idea to prevent the stealing of ideas that have been stolen    - ironic?   anti ironic?
20:20 < technologiclee3> ok why is classic not defined - it is in python occ    - ill search    - also i think the chat client could use and integrated search thing
20:22 < technologiclee3> i found a pastebin post by heath - where yall are working on this   -   echo echo....
20:22 < Aliks> yeah seriously technologiclee3, would be ironic... but those guys have no morals despite telling us we should not steal their stuff
20:22 < Aliks> yay, found my patent app
20:22 < Aliks> only took like 2 hours... grr
20:23 < Aliks> thats what happens when I don't work on stuff for 6 months... lose all track of where I put things
20:23 < technologiclee3> its not about moral its about money and control
20:23 < Aliks> right
20:23 < Aliks> however, I do think there is an argument to be made for actually paying for stuff... I mean, need to support people who do creative work
20:24 < technologiclee3> if they can live and sing thats good enough the artist see little of the money anyway
20:24 < Aliks> well thats what I'm saying
20:24 < Aliks> it'd be good if the artist actually got the money
20:24 < Aliks> or the author, or the software developer, etc.
20:25 < Aliks> It encourages people to do even more creative stuff
20:25 < technologiclee3> the money destroys them anyway  - better to sing in poverty than to die of overdose
20:25 < Aliks> I don't think creativity flourishes as much in an environment where "knowledge/creative workers" need to work fast food to survive
20:26 < Aliks> lol thats their decision to make, I would argue, technologiclee3
20:26 < technologiclee3> this is a transition   our economy is fake
20:26 < Aliks> how so?
20:26 < technologiclee3> which part?
20:26 < Aliks> well you're making the statement, how should I know what part?
20:27 < Aliks> lol
20:27 < technologiclee3> nothing for the search     EXTRA_LIBS = [ -classic ,  -nomodernargs, 'm','stc++',lib_python]
20:27 < technologiclee3> NameError: name 'classic' is not defined
20:27 < technologiclee3> this is the frontier
20:28 < Aliks> ?
20:29 < Aliks> hmm food time I guess
20:29 < Aliks> pick this up later maybe
20:29 < technologiclee3> i've got an idea called RoboBurger(TM) that will put them out of work
20:29 < kanzure> technologiclee3: in the EXTRA_LIBS line, "-classic" should be in quotes
20:29 < technologiclee3> EXTRA_LIBS = [ -'classic' ,  -nomodernargs, 'm','stc++',lib_python]
20:31 < technologiclee3> TypeError: bad operand type for unary -: 'str'
20:31 < kanzure> put the "-" inside of it
20:32 < technologiclee3> NameError: name 'nomodernargs' is not defined
20:34 < kanzure> same thing again, throw that into quotes
20:34 < kanzure> including the '-'
20:34 < technologiclee3> EXTRA_LIBS = [ '-classic' ,  '-nomodernargs', 'm','stc++',lib_python]          http://pastebin.com/f399e62b3
20:37 < technologiclee3> pythonOCC-0.3/src/OCC -o /home/l/local/pythonocc/pythonOCC-0.3/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/Standard_wrap.cpp /home/l/local/pythonocc/pythonOCC-0.3/src/wrapper/SWIG/linux_darwin/Standard.i
20:37 < technologiclee3> swig: Modules/lang.cxx:330: Language::Language(): Assertion `!this_' failed.
20:37 < technologiclee3> error: command 'swig' terminated by signal 6
20:44 < kanzure> hm
20:45 < ybit> 18:37 < kanzure> ybit's fault :)
20:45 < ybit> i confess
20:46 < ybit> movie was sold out (yay)
20:46 < kanzure> ybit: i think this is off. http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/graphs/heath_matlock.png
20:46 < ybit> just a bit
20:46 < ybit> it would be nice to see my stalking graph overlayed on that
20:47 < kanzure> technologiclee3: here's you http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/graphs/lee_nelson.png
20:48 < technologiclee3> hey - my knowledge has incresaed today.....
20:48 < technologiclee3> and the phone an in person line should be on the same day
20:49 < technologiclee3> and what is meant by internet? what are the units? #hplusr,  Open Manu posts?
20:49 < technologiclee3> anyway  - interesting
20:49 < ybit> internet == right now
20:50 < ybit> i.e. talking on the net
20:50 < kanzure> wtf
20:51 < kanzure> bluetooth has a range of 60mi? http://the-gadgeteer.com/2007/09/03/aircable_host_xr_long_range_bluetooth_dongle/
20:51 < kanzure> technologiclee3: "internet" means times i've interacted with you on the internet, like by sending you a message, or you sending me one
20:51 < kanzure> if you send the mailing list one, and i don't reply, it doesn't count
20:52 < ybit> swig: Modules/lang.cxx:330: Language::Language(): Assertion `!this_' failed.
20:52 < ybit> think that's a new one
20:54 < technologiclee3> i dont think that said 60 miles     1 km = .6 miles    its working  off 5 volts
20:55 < technologiclee3> yesss    f'n   up   like   never  before and  no one else
20:56 < technologiclee3> but why is this failing   - it worked  on   a  karmic   64 bit  laptop   this  is  a  lucid   64 bit  desktop
20:57 < ybit> oh
20:57 < technologiclee3> there were no seaarch relusts for   the  last 2  lines  including  error code 6
20:58 < technologiclee3> and 8 hits  for    Modules..........
20:58 < technologiclee3> thats when i know i'm on the edge and there won't be much help available    -    echo   echo
20:59 < Aliks> back
20:59 < technologiclee3> haha    1  of those hits is already   me
20:59 < Aliks> now I understand what you guys were talking about...
20:59 < Aliks> the RoboBurger clued me in
20:59 < Aliks> post-scarcity society basically?
21:00 < technologiclee3> did   you  see that    best  robots  of 2009   from   wired  i think?
21:00 < Aliks> no
21:00 < Aliks> but actually I'm really really surprised nobody has automated fast food yet
21:00 < Aliks> I mean, I've had that idea since like 2000
21:00 < technologiclee3> RoboChefs(TM)   and  a human   server  - which is silly   - robots have been serving for years
21:00 < Aliks> no big companies jumped on it yet?
21:00 < ybit> http://singularityhub.com/2009/12/22/a-review-of-the-best-robots-of-2009/
21:00 < ybit> anyway, Aliks yes
21:00 < ybit> post-scarcity/transhumanism/personal manufacturing
21:01 < ybit> diysci
21:01 < Aliks> yeah, I like the idea and I think a rough approximation of that will happen
21:01 < Aliks> however, I suspect there will still be some form of scarcity over the next 100 years or so
21:01 < technologiclee3> ya   the   costs  of  robots  is  to the point  where  it  makes  sense  to  eliminate   minimum wage staff   -  i though  about it awhile  back   but  the equip was still too expensive
21:02 < Aliks> technologiclee3, yeah and the staff is the majority of the cost of the food
21:02 < Aliks> without human staff the dollar menu is the 25c menu
21:03 < ybit> technologiclee3: just confirmed by grepping the logs, this is a first of that kind of error, might be helpful to see how others tackled similar swig !this_ assertion errors
21:03 < Aliks> I mean, surface space on planet Earth is limited, so that's scarcity we're not going to be free of for quite some time
21:03 < Aliks> also there are finite amounts of various elements
21:03 < Aliks> so until transmutation of elements becomes cheap, thats an issue
21:04 < technologiclee3> i   prob  messed it  up   doing things out of order if no one has seen it   before    -   reinstall  immanent 
21:04 < Aliks> a related problem is... what to do with the people who work min wage right now, not the ones who are stuck there due to lack of opportunity, but the ones that are too lazy to do anything that requires thinking?
21:05 < ybit> spam them, take their money
21:05 < Aliks> yeah but they dont HAVE money
21:05 < Aliks> thats exactly the problem... they arent productive
21:05 < Aliks> they arent even worth having around
21:05 < Aliks> as the man just said, we can replace them with robots for cheaper
21:05 < Aliks> their work is actually more expensive that a robot's work
21:05 < Aliks> and they cant do anything a robot cant do
21:05 < Aliks> *than/that
21:05 < ybit> spam them, use their wasteful brain processing cycles to gain money through user registrations and surveys? :P
21:06 < Aliks> lol only works until those companies business models fail
21:06 < technologiclee3> let them be lazy and dream
21:06 < Aliks> seems like a loss of a lot of world resources if the 5 billion lazy unproductive ignorant people get to soak up 5/6 of the resources
21:06 < Aliks> no?
21:07 < ybit> create a religion that these 5 billion can't refuse
21:07 < ybit> the singularity seems to be a popular one these days
21:07 < Aliks> they arent interested
21:07 < technologiclee3> what good is tech if we cant chill?
21:07 < Aliks> do you guys spend much time out of the university campus?
21:07 < Aliks> most people are idiots
21:08 < Aliks> they arent even aware of the word 'singularity'
21:08 < Aliks> they're stuck somewhere in 1970
21:08 < ybit> heh, you're speaking the choir
21:08 < Aliks> lol ok
21:08 < Aliks> well thats what I'm asking about I guess
21:08 < Aliks> is how do we deal with that...
21:08 < Aliks> we just let those same people soak up 5/6 of the world's resources?
21:08 < technologiclee3> we need a blockbuster tranhumanism movir    -  I  Robot came close
21:09 < technologiclee3> they are behind   help the kids
21:09 < ybit> this conversation is about to turn to education | extinction, i'm not sure which, either way, i'm not too interested. my take is that i will gladly point others to resources if they ask
21:09 < technologiclee3> like - animals ?   plants    -  living is doing
21:10 < ybit> but i'm not too interested in educating others unless they can help my cause and it doesn't waste too much time
21:10 < Aliks> I agree, ybit
21:10 < Aliks> ybit, what does your work focus on?
21:10 < Aliks> or what are you planning to work on?
21:10 < ybit> my cause == the cause
21:10 < Aliks> ah
21:10 < ybit> see above
21:10 < Aliks> yes
21:10 < Aliks> do you mind if I ask where you guys are from?
21:10 < technologiclee3> texas
21:10 < ybit> florence, alabama, united states
21:10 < Aliks> this is the largest concentration of people I've ever seen (in realtime) of people who have these kind of ideas
21:11 -!- kristianpaul [n=kristian@190.7.148.137] has quit ["leaving"]
21:11 < technologiclee3> these are the only ones  i have  found
21:11 < ybit> katsmeow-afk is temporarily located in alabama as well
21:11 < Aliks> (personally seen that is, I'm aware there are gatherings)
21:11 < technologiclee3> not  tru   -   but   in  real  time  yes
21:11 < ybit> this is the largest concentration of alabamians with these ideas i've ever seen :)
21:11 < technologiclee3> pidgen  is   a  bit  of  a  hurdle...
21:11 < ybit> (2)
21:12 < ybit> technologiclee3: pidgin?
21:12 < technologiclee3> if  you can not  point  and   click   you lose  people
21:12 < technologiclee3> and  that   does  not  mean   stupid  -   every   trick  takes   learning
21:12 < Aliks> I'm using MIRC if thats what you mean
21:13 < Aliks> by the way, currently located in California
21:13 < ybit> Aliks: what part?
21:13 < Aliks> ybit, near Sacramento
21:13 < Aliks> mid/northern
21:14 < ybit> you aren't too far from s.f. then where there happens to be quite a lot of interesting people
21:14 < Aliks> yes, about 90 min away
21:14 < Aliks> hopefully will be in and around SF as of 6 months from now
21:14 < ybit> e.g. http://foresight.org/
21:14 < Aliks> right
21:15 < ybit> i would be there in a heartbeat if i didn't have land here
21:15 < Aliks> sell it
21:15 < ybit> nope
21:15 < Aliks> or keep it and just pay taxes on it while you're away
21:16 < ybit> i'm going to replicate some of factor-e-farm's work here
21:16 < Aliks> nice
21:16 < ybit> i.e. build my own lab to perform my own angry experiments
21:16 < Aliks> lol
21:17 < Aliks> so I take it you're going the robotics/automation route?
21:17 < Aliks> as opposed to the nanomachines, biochemistry/longevity route?
21:17 < ybit> heh, i'm all over
21:17 < Aliks> ah ok
21:17 < Aliks> probably common among this group
21:17 < ybit> it's a full-time job stalking kanzure and fenn
21:18 < technologiclee3> here is one way to get the error  Using -xmlout raises an error:
21:18 < technologiclee3> > swig -xml -c++ -cpperraswarn -xmlout
21:18 < Aliks> currently in university, graduated?
21:18 < ybit> my uni related interests: http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:Heath_Matlock
21:18 < ybit> undergrad, took a break, going back this semester
21:18 < ybit> just to take a course or two, i despise school, prefer p2p methods of learning
21:18 < Aliks> very cool
21:19 < Aliks> CS undergrad here, with a lot of bio/chem electives
21:19 < Aliks> going to do a double major with bio possibly
21:19 < technologiclee3> this is a full time job - i put in overtime
21:19 < ybit> that's the way to go
21:19 < ybit> technologiclee3: indeed
21:20 < ybit> kanzure is probably about to hax0r my computer soon enough if i don't have the .deb finished this week
21:20 < Aliks> .deb?
21:20 < technologiclee3> BS Control Systems Engineering - Corpus Christi A&M
21:20 < technologiclee3> hey  ya   whats  that  need  to make  it  it  idiot  proof?
21:21 < ybit> Aliks: a .deb is an installation file for debian based linux systems
21:21 < Aliks> ah
21:21 < technologiclee3> i mentioned the bitrock install builder    -  i want  to  package  Ne1  - as well
21:22 < ybit> nice to meet you Aliks
21:22 < ybit> technologiclee3: i already knew who you were from previous stalking
21:22 < Aliks> you too Heath
21:22 < technologiclee3> but i never said anything    ; )
21:23  * ybit is going to figure out the google chart api and get the sata drive working
21:23 < technologiclee3> and no one ever saw  anything i did   before  my  first Open Manu post   - and then no one proceeded to give a hoot - i'm invisible man
21:26 < Aliks> eeeeeew
21:26 < Aliks> I just saw a video about a Stanford robotic Audi
21:26 < Aliks> and they showed some of the source code
21:26 < Aliks> it's in JAVA!!  nOO!!!!!!
21:26 < technologiclee3> i bet it would be easier for me to try and make   a  .rpm  since i'm  ubuntu...
21:29 < kanzure> back
21:29 < kanzure> got lost in my graphs
21:51 -!- jm|earth [n=j@p57B9C4A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit]
21:52 < technologiclee3> oh   amn  this  vid  was  tooo   good  lol  for  rilla  http://www.anxietyfree4me.com/blog2/anxiety/installation-anxiety
22:11 < kanzure> trey is suggesting 3 threaded rods (1 per axis) for the cnc cube project
22:15 < technologiclee3> for the drive or the frame?
22:20 < kanzure> for moving the router/assembly-that-contains-the-drill-bit-and-dc-motor
22:21 < technologiclee3> sure - sounds reasonable - i'll take a look at some cnc designs
22:21 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:21 < kanzure> http://mechmate.com/ is what lee has going for him
22:23 < technologiclee3> this is a site that mentions a router bit for etching PCB boards http://buildyourcnc.com/default.aspx
22:23 < technologiclee3> you mean 'les and the ready to go x-y table?
22:24 < kanzure> i'm tempted to just say the controller is going to be a beagleboard
22:24 < kanzure> s/lee/les/
22:24 < kanzure> sorry
22:25 < kanzure> the x-y table isn't quite ready to go. that mechmate setup has a few structural, ah, defects
22:25 < kanzure> and for some reason nobody has bothered to fix them yet
22:25 < technologiclee3> all - good   ' my brains at the limit at the moment
22:25 < technologiclee3> we are the body 
22:26 < kanzure> yes by nobody i really mean "me"
22:27 < technologiclee3> why buy a board - could an old computer work?
22:27 < technologiclee3> they drive printers...
22:27 < kanzure> printers are queue-based
22:27 < kanzure> cnc machines need to be real-time
22:27 < kanzure> yes a computer can work
22:28 < kanzure> i'll have to ask fenn when he gets back around what type of hookups emc needs
22:29 < kanzure> ah
22:29 < kanzure> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/EMC2_Integrator_Manual.pdf
22:31 < kanzure> haha they use the parallel port?
22:31 < kanzure> do things even have those any more
22:32 < technologiclee3> i see usb port on p. 23
22:32 < technologiclee3> and parallel
22:34 < technologiclee3> but one still needs motor controllers
22:35 < technologiclee3> what has those free??   
22:38 < kanzure> hm, pulse width modulation
22:38 < kanzure> doesn't need motor controllers
22:38 < kanzure> you just need an hbridge and a parallel port, and your dc motor i think
22:44 < technologiclee3> ya looks like it  but there is still the driver  http://www.cncroutersource.com/cnc-control.html  http://www.cncroutersource.com/cnc-controller-components.html
22:46 < kanzure> http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Servo_vs_stepper_motors.html
22:46 < kanzure> ah you're right
22:48 < Martyn> Just came back from watching Avatar 3D/IMAX .. pretty damned cool film
22:48 < Martyn> kanzure : EMC2 can use any number of interfaces
22:49 < Martyn> kanzure : I have full plans for a gantry CNC machine here, if needed.
22:49 < Martyn> ( including PCB's, parts BOM, etc.. )
22:49 < kanzure> i was thinking of building an open source CNC machine and mount it in a cubespawn
22:49 < kanzure> if there's licensing issues i better not look at it
22:49 < Martyn> This _is_ an open source machine
22:49 < Martyn> you don't have to re-invent the wheel, after all :)
22:49 < kanzure> please understand why i'm being so careful
22:49 < Martyn> plenty of wheels already out there :)
22:49 < kanzure> are there any CAD models?
22:50 < kanzure> not meshes
22:50 < Martyn> What, of the PCBs?
22:50 < kanzure> no
22:50 < kanzure> are the PCBs the stepper drivers, or something else?
22:50 < Martyn> They encompass three functions
22:51 < kanzure> i would only expect schematics in some usable format (not PDF or PNG) for electronics, not a .stl or .stp for sure :)
22:51 < Martyn> Linear optical (or magnetic) quad encoders
22:51 < Martyn> Stepper drivers
22:51 < kanzure> sounds good so far
22:51 < Martyn> (well, general motor drivers actually )
22:51 < Martyn> and logic
22:51 < kanzure> what does "logic" mean
22:51 < Martyn> In this case, it uses an ARM AT91 processor
22:51 < Martyn> logic .. all the control logic is on the mainboard, making controlling the gantry very easy
22:52 < Martyn> EMC2 already supports it
22:52 < kanzure> so it has a gcode parser running on the at91 or something?
22:52 < Martyn> No
22:52 < kanzure> i don't understand its purpose then
22:52 < Martyn> just an intermediary packet-based communication system
22:52 < kanzure> okie dokie
22:52 < kanzure> buffer dealy, i got it
22:52 < Martyn> Yep, so that takes care of having to deal with realtime processing issues
22:52 < kanzure> well
22:53 < kanzure> i'd like to take a look if you could tarball it all up
22:53 < Martyn> Yeek .. all 580 megs!?
22:53 < kanzure> yeah
22:53 < Martyn> I was thinking I'd just give it to you on a usb key on Sunday
22:53 < kanzure> ok
22:53 < kanzure> why is it not online?
22:53 < kanzure> er, i mean, why is it not on the web?
22:54 < Martyn> Mostly because the people making the machine at UC Berkeley are still developing it
22:54 < Martyn> I help with the control logic
22:54 < kanzure> are you sure berkeley doesn't own the license?
22:54 < Martyn> The control code is BSD licenced
22:54 < kanzure> the code is only one small part
22:55 < Martyn> so in all actual fact they /do/ own the license, but it's under the terms of the BSD license
22:55 < Martyn> they don't own EMC2, and the driver follows the EMC2 spec.. which means it's GPL
22:55 < kanzure> what about the pcb schematics and gantry assembly
22:55 < Martyn> the hardware is under the same kind of license as the freeduino .. CC I think
22:55 < Martyn> gantry assembly is not under any license, as this design can work with -any- gantry
22:56 < kanzure> why is the hardware under that license? i mean how did berkeley let that happen
22:56 < Martyn> Because that's the license the PCB came under when it started.
22:56 < Martyn> They adapted a design, and the Creative Commons license is just fine
22:57 < kanzure> most universities demand that they own all (what they call) "IP" of projects designed, built or executed within their walls
22:57 < kanzure> so that's why i'm suspicious
22:57 < Martyn> It covers the schematic, and only one possible layout of the board ( 4 layer, 5cm x 8cm )
22:57 < kanzure> but again if it's real, more power to it
22:57 < kanzure> cool
22:57 < Martyn> kanzure : UC Berkeley has a LONG tradition of open software projects
22:57 < kanzure> who was the person ebhind the OpenServo project?
22:57 < Martyn> kanzure : In fact, they opened BSD even before Stallman and his ideas came along
22:57 < kanzure> and why hasn't that gone anywhere
22:58 < Martyn> Barry is in charge of it
22:58 < Martyn> Barry Carter
22:58 < Martyn> and people use OpenServo all the itme
22:58 < kanzure> for some reason i remember it being stuck somewhere
22:58 < kanzure> i checked it out a few years ago though, last
22:58 < kanzure> so i'm probably behind a bit
22:58 < Martyn> It's FAR from stuck
22:58 < Martyn> hell, v3 came out in December of '08
22:59 < Martyn> and v4 is under active development
22:59 < Martyn> You're behind the times :)
22:59 < kanzure> dunno if i want a servo or a brushless dc motor. lots of decisions to make :)
22:59  * Martyn rolls his eyes.  Bryan, you make so many /flat/ statements.
22:59 < kanzure> i think a motor is more typical
23:00 < Martyn> What you want, is whatever works.  You can make a very accurate linear actuator out of a motor and a linear encoder.   That's kind of the point.
23:00 < Martyn> The real 'magic' is in your controls logic.   I am a big fan of PID, and have implemented kalmann filters more times than I like to admit.
23:01 < Martyn> I've got a fairly good bit of code that implements a servo on the ATmega tiny24 :)
23:02 < Martyn> Right now, I'm even working on modifying the firmware of a MakerBot, so that I can install three rotary quadrature encoders and use the spare I/O channels on the boards to make a -very- accurate makerbot
23:02 < Martyn> instead of the current technique used.
23:04 < Martyn> (which drifts, and has lots of slop due to the fact that it uses standard screw posts, no antibacklash nuts, not to mention the printed pulleys and gods-awful motors)
23:05 < kanzure> Martyn: did you see this yet? http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/graphs/martin_bogomolni.png
23:06 < kanzure> ("knowledge" means when someone told me about you, so that's when i acquired "knowledge of you", starting sometime in early december)
23:07 < Martyn> What is it?
23:07 < kanzure> just a log of social interactions
23:07 < kanzure> in the parent directory you'll see a bunch of these graphs
23:08 < Martyn> Bryan, you are one _wierd_ dude.
23:09 < Martyn> Fascinating way of looking at the universe.
23:10 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:10 < kanzure> hello Aliks 
23:10 < Aliks> yo
23:10 < Aliks> whats new?
23:12 < kanzure> reading up on some emc2 documentation
23:12 < Aliks> havent heard of it
23:12 < kanzure> http://linuxcnc.org/
23:12 < Aliks> (I assume there's going to be several things i havent heard of that are common in this group)
23:13 < Aliks> ahh yeah I don't usually do low level stuff
23:13 < Martyn> emc2 is an open source CNC control software.  Very useful, and does a great job of controlling machines that otherwise would be locked up with proprietary software.
23:13  * Aliks nods.
23:16 < Martyn> kanzure : How are you at regular expressions?
23:16 < Martyn> (perl style)
23:16 < Aliks> Martyn, I might be able to help with that
23:17 < kanzure> not quite a newbie, but not a ninja
23:17 < kanzure> enough to cause some serious damage :)
23:17 < kanzure> can't seem to craft mixed greedy expressions, for instance
23:17 < Martyn> I have a file, where I need to substitute the first 6 ',' characters with <tab> ... leave the 7th one in place
23:17 < Martyn> It's driving me batty
23:18 < Aliks> hmmm are they each on a different line?
23:18 < kanzure> :%s/[,](6)/\t/g
23:18 < kanzure> or something like that
23:18 < kanzure> er wait
23:18 < kanzure> ,{6}
23:18 < kanzure> damn now you have me experimenting
23:18 < Aliks> kanzure, doesnt that assume the ,s are consecutive?
23:18 < Martyn> Aliks : It's a 200+KB file
23:18 < kanzure> Aliks: yes
23:18 < Martyn> Aliks : Each line is a new entry
23:18 < Aliks> Martyn, any delimiters other than , ?
23:18 < Aliks> ah ok
23:19 < kanzure> are the ',' characters consecutive?
23:19 < Aliks> Martyn I assume it's data,data,data,data...,
23:19 < Martyn> no, there is intermixed data .. the ',' -were- the original delimeter .. but the 7th is not a delimeter but rather the literal , in an address
23:19 < kanzure> ok then (.), and then there's a way to specify repeating a certain number of times
23:19 < kanzure> Martyn: yikes sounds like some nasty data
23:19 < Martyn> it's:
23:19 < Aliks> ((.),){6} possibly, kanzure
23:20 < kanzure> Aliks: yeah but the (.) should be made optional, i'm not sure how to do that
23:20 < kanzure> because in some cases it might be data,data,,data,address oh shit
23:20 < Aliks> er.. either way should be .+
23:20 < Aliks> ((.+),){6}
23:20 < kanzure> god we're geeks
23:20 < Martyn> data,data,234345mixed  data with Spaces and possibly \n escaped chars,data,data,data,Anywhere TX, 92117
23:20 < Aliks> er.. sorry *
23:20 < Aliks> + is 1 or more, has been a while
23:21 < Aliks> Martyn, if it's that much of a pain in the ass
23:21 < Aliks> write yourself an equivalent to PHP's explode function
23:21 < Aliks> then do $sections = explode(',', $line_of_data);
23:21 < kanzure> i tend to jump between fixing bad data with regular expressions, and writing custom scripts to pick up the crap
23:21 < Martyn> Aliks : I already wrote a small python script to do it .. but I /really/ wish I could figure out how to do it in a single regexp
23:21 < Aliks> then reconstruct your data from that
23:21 < Aliks> meh, regex is overrated
23:21 < Aliks> do what does the job, in my opinion
23:22 < kanzure> if you know regular expressions well enough, you can save a lot of time
23:22 < Aliks> your time is worth more than a computer's time
23:22 < Martyn> Heh
23:22 < Martyn> This is plain "for the learning"
23:22 < Aliks> oh I see
23:22 < Aliks> yeah if it's for learning
23:22 < Martyn> I know it's possible...
23:22 < Martyn> and I ripped through the data hours ago
23:22 < Aliks> I dunno, regexes do have some limitations... but yeah this shouldnt be one of them
23:22 < kanzure> Aliks: i don't think (.*) will pick up newlines
23:22 < Aliks> I was designing an alternative a while back...
23:22 < Aliks> called SPEL
23:22 < Aliks> Structured Pattern Expression Language
23:22 < Martyn> ((.),){6} is about right
23:23 < Aliks> abasically a sql query for expressions
23:23 < kanzure> Aliks: look up booleano
23:23 < Aliks> will do
23:23 < kanzure> not quite the same idea, but worth mentioning anyway
23:23 < Aliks> interesting, yeah
23:24 < Aliks> but yeah, I notice regex gets really really nasty sometimes.. lots of nested this and nested that
23:24 < Aliks> so many {{*+[A-Z]***++++))} ... you know what I mean
23:24 < kanzure> there's this linux tool in the debian repositories called "regular expression wizard" or something
23:24 < Aliks> that it would be nicer to organize it almost like a programming language
23:24 < Aliks> like...
23:24 < kanzure> and it shows you in real time as you construct your regex wtf you're doing
23:25 < Aliks> pattern ip_address { 4 (1:3 numbers, 1 '.') } etc.
23:25 < Martyn> Yep, there is also an old DOS program I used years ago that does pretty much just that too
23:25 < Aliks> (bad example but you see what I mean)
23:25 < Martyn> okay, it's getting late, and I've got an early day at work tomorrow.
23:25 < Martyn> whee
23:26 < Martyn> Catch you all later :)
23:26 < kanzure> Aliks: sounds like you wanted a simple parser generator of some sort
23:26 -!- Martyn [n=martinb@cpe-70-112-85-99.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:26 < Aliks> also in a more expanded form (should be multiline by the way), it was easier to specify things
23:26 < kanzure> martyn needs to learn himself the wonderful powers of "screen"
23:26 < Aliks> like for example... you could just put "greedy" on a line
23:26 < Aliks> just easier to express more complicated stuff
23:26 < Aliks> build in some more advanced things as "language features" for the pattern matcher
23:26 < Aliks> shrug
23:27 < Aliks> hmm... trying to figure out what to do next...
23:28 < kanzure> what do you mean "what to do next"? you mean right now?
23:28 < Aliks> yeah
23:28 < Aliks> the semester is over so I have some time off
23:28 < kanzure> do you run linux
23:28 < Aliks> no
23:28 < Aliks> windows laptop
23:28 < kanzure> spend some time getting acquainted with http://wubi-installer.org/
23:29 < kanzure> that's a reasonable first project ;)
23:29 < Aliks> nah lol
23:29 < kanzure> although if you're quick with your keyboard maybe it will onyl take an hour
23:29 < Aliks> I have a big to-do list, just a matter of picking what to do first
23:29 < kanzure> you know, the original point of skdb was to solve that problem
23:29 < kanzure> "what the hell should i do first"
23:29 < kanzure> because sometimes, certain tasks enable more tasks
23:29 < kanzure> but it's not really clear when you first look at the huge todo list, wtf should come first
23:29 < Aliks> plus I'm at that point where I'm stopping learning new programming stuff until I've already put what I know to some use
23:30 < Aliks> yeah, its funny you are doing that
23:30 < Aliks> I have a similar project
23:30 < Aliks> let me show you a stupid mockup
23:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/todo.html <-- i stopped this years ago because it was killing me
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23:31 < Aliks> tryin to find dir
23:32 < Aliks> msged it to you
23:32 < Aliks> obviously doesnt work
23:32 < Aliks> was just a mockup for an idea
23:34 < Aliks> I think your tool is really awesome though
23:34 < Aliks> like, tracking meetings in person etc.
23:34 < Aliks> would be nice to tag each meeting with things like... what was discussed, etc.
23:34 < Aliks> so you could call people up while reading the last meeting "Oh yeah Bill, you remember me from such and such.."
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