--- Day changed Tue Dec 29 2009
00:00 < Aliks> yeah that too
00:00 < Aliks> kanzure, true
00:00 < randallagordon> I still can't get PythonOCC to play nice...but I haven't spent much time on it, either
00:00 < QuantumG> "wow, great invention, it's now secret, if you want to keep working on it you'll be doing it in the employ of the US gov, thanks"
00:00 < kanzure> randallagordon: do you know where you got stuck?
00:00 < Aliks> QuantumG, I wonder how many great things are locked away that way
00:01 < kanzure> missing words
00:01 < QuantumG> apparently most everything rocket related is
00:01 < Aliks> kanzure, have you thought about doing this with wood or other easily worked materials?
00:01 < Aliks> as opposed to metal?
00:01 < kanzure> doing what with wood?
00:01 < Aliks> SKDB
00:01 < kanzure> yes it's for all materials
00:01 < randallagordon> everything except pythonOCC appeared to install/compile properly...lemme fire up VirtualBox and see if I can't figure anything out
00:01 < Aliks> anything made mostly out of wood... chairs, beds, etc.
00:01 < kanzure> for instance, the legos in the repository are plastic
00:01 < kanzure> and the screws are cold rolled steel IIRC
00:01  * Aliks nods.
00:02 < QuantumG> sometimes things get declassified after 10 years of non-development and people are allowed to commercialize it though
00:02 < kanzure> there are no wood projects yet in there because i'm only one person
00:02 < kanzure> if you other lazy bums want to help out.. :)
00:02 < Aliks> haha
00:02 < Aliks> yeah
00:02 < kanzure> just saying
00:02 < Aliks> unfortunately I have too much on my plate already
00:02 < kanzure> fenn: are you awake yet. it's been 36 hours
00:02 < randallagordon> I'd be happy to, if I knew what I was doing, lol
00:02 < kanzure> randallagordon: http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/ it's really simple
00:02 < kanzure> just make a folder, and put some CAD models in there
00:02 < kanzure> (STEP or IGES models)
00:02 < kanzure> and then show it to me :p
00:03 < Aliks> QuantumG, my main concern with patents is they seem to work for the companies with lots of money, and not for individual inventors
00:03 < Aliks> like for example I'll be filing a patent pending later this month
00:03 < Aliks> or early next month I should say
00:03 < randallagordon> I've never done any CAD modeling
00:03 < Aliks> but odds are it's got some minor flaw in the wording
00:03 < Aliks> that will allow a million dollar corporate legal department to pick it apart
00:03 < kanzure> randallagordon: it can be fun when it's free. try this on for size: http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/
00:03 < Aliks> and then patent their own version in the proper legal language, and prevent me from using my own idea
00:04 < Aliks> or at the very least avoid paying a dime in royalties
00:04 < randallagordon> *yoink*
00:04 < QuantumG> patents dont work for anything other than an extra bit of nonsense to convince an investor to give you money
00:04 < randallagordon> I've toyed with Sketchup a tiny amount, that's as close as I've come
00:04 < kanzure> randallagordon: avoid sketchup at all costs. when you make something in ketchup, it's locked in as a "mesh" and it's not "real" CAD
00:04 < Aliks> QuantumG, well they deter some of your smaller competitors, and it raises the cost of fucking you
00:05 < kanzure> Aliks: show me.
00:05 < Aliks> kanzure, ?
00:05 < kanzure> a case where little guys were kept out because they feared you or something
00:05 < Aliks> oh, its all anecdotal man lol
00:05 < Aliks> I dont store away the sites
00:05 < Aliks> just things that I've read, heard about, have been recommended to me
00:05 < Aliks> I claim no scientific proof lol
00:06 < randallagordon> kanzure, aye, I was using it to make some simple illustrations that didn't require any sort of precision
00:06 < kanzure> okie dokie
00:06  * kanzure sleeps
00:06 < kanzure> tomorrow, documentation will be available
00:06 < kanzure> i spent today making pretty LaTeX bullshit
00:10 < randallagordon> wait...
00:10 < randallagordon> I think it just worked
00:10 < randallagordon> I should get *nothing* upon issuing "import skdb" if it is working, correct?
00:12 < Aliks> lol I think that's the typical linux success message
00:12 < Aliks> is nothing
00:12 < Aliks> right?
00:12 < randallagordon> hehe, well I'm not getting an error about pythonOCC not being installed properly, anymore, so I take that as a good thing ;)
00:13 < Aliks> how often do you guys do those meetups? the conferences?
00:13 < ybit> kanzure: LaTeX is nice, but why not just html
00:13 < ybit> or text
00:14  * ybit rapes gnusha 
00:17 < randallagordon> wow
00:17  * randallagordon is slightly disturbed. Only slightly.
00:18 < ybit> what? that i raped the skdb mascot?
00:18 < ybit> get used to it buddy
00:18  * randallagordon already is.
00:18 < Aliks> man, why must the government put so much data out as PDF?
00:19  * randallagordon gets over things quickly
00:19 < Aliks> is it INTENTIONALLY making it hard to tabulate the data?
00:19 < Aliks> fuck!
00:19 < Aliks> I need to get some Indians to do the data entry now
00:20 < ybit> someone want to help my lazy ass and write something for the bottom of http://openmanufacturing.org/
00:20 < ybit> preferably not using the word 'lazy' or its derivatives so many times as 'lazy' is one of the main keywords now
00:20 < ybit> according to google
00:25 < randallagordon> haha, awesome
00:27 < randallagordon> hey, I think it did something useful... packages/lego/demo.py appears to have worked properly!
00:27 < randallagordon> "brick1's stud cup is compatible with:  ['anti stud cup']"
00:31 < Aliks> I wish I could throw all this data into a database easily and call it up... but would take more time to organize it all and insert it than to just take the pieces I need... bah, inefficiency
00:31 < randallagordon> PDF certainly doesn't shine for transporting raw data...
00:33 < Aliks> and even tabular formats require a lot of massaging
00:33 < Aliks> like... it's not designed for database insertion
00:33 < Aliks> it's not obvious how to organize it in a way that would be easily computer usable
00:34 < randallagordon> wohoo, I've got a Lego model that I can spin around...this is apparently the greatest day of my life
00:36 < randallagordon> have you watched Hans Rosling's TED videos?
00:37 < randallagordon> that man's data visualization abilities makes my loins tingle
00:38 < Aliks> lol
00:39 < randallagordon> I'm rarely impressed with Flash...but this is an exception: http://www.innovid.com/
00:39 < randallagordon> Although I'm immediately thinking through how it is possible to achive the same thing with HTML5's <video> element...
00:41 < ybit> congrats randallagordon 
00:42  * randallagordon take a bow, astounded by his ability to follow instructions
00:44 < Aliks> finally, DNS propogated
00:48 < randallagordon> I'm curious if I might be able to get some feedback...recently I picked up forkcapitalism.com, I intend to use it as an outlet for discussing my ideas about how to practice capitalism ethically, taking into account physical, environmental and social value factors that go far beyond the "bottom line"... The name intendes to mean essentially what a software project fork is, branching off and doing things another way.
00:48 < randallagordon> The logo I've created I'm intending to show an "ending" of those old ways and a continual impovement using the new fork of ideas, thus the following logo: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_2152.png
00:48 < Aliks> not bad
00:49 < Aliks> I like it
00:49 < randallagordon> started here: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-26_1626.png
00:50 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_1258.png
00:50 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-27_1403.png
00:51 < randallagordon> I have a few variations created, as you can see, but the first link I think takes care of most of the "problems"
00:51 < randallagordon> Such as downward arrows having a negative connotation with relation to the dollar, but flipping the "fork" over creates, well, a pitchfork, or devil horns, heh
00:52 < randallagordon> in the end, I think removing the arrow point from the "original branch" had quite the impact on communicating meaning
00:53 < randallagordon> and now I feel like I'm rambling and will shut up
00:56 < Aliks> lol its ok I was just going back and forth on something else
00:57 < Aliks> I think this latest version is the best out of the 4
00:58 < randallagordon> 12-27_2152 is the "latest" as per the file timestamps, or are you refering to _1403, the latest I linked to?
00:59 < Aliks> first first you linked to
00:59 < Aliks> _2152
01:00 < randallagordon> cool
01:08 < Aliks> man, I dunno how much work I wanna put into this... gah it sucks having so much stuff that could be done... and it's all so inefficiently being distributed.. the workload that is
01:09 < randallagordon> this?
01:10 < randallagordon> oh, the data thing? what precisely are you doing?
01:11 < Aliks> well, my brain hasnt been working as well as usual, so I was trying to do something fairly mundane while it recovers lol...
01:11 < Aliks> trying to write an article called "understanding economic currents"
01:11 < Aliks> where I'm going to break down incomes, expenditures, etc. of both individuals and businesses in the US
01:11 < randallagordon> I enjoy the fact that you consider that mundane :)
01:11 < Aliks> and then create "personas" for each section of the economy
01:12 < Aliks> and then try to explain to college students, esp. business students, where money is flowing to and from
01:12 < Aliks> what kinds of goods are being purchased
01:12 < randallagordon> so what's your area of expertise?
01:12 < randallagordon> econ?
01:12 < Aliks> I'm kind of all over the place, mostly CS though
01:12 < Aliks> I've done a lot of philosophical/economic/political thinking as well
01:12 < Aliks> took about 2 years of business courses in college along with my other stuff
01:13 < Aliks> (and that's not where I did most of my thinking lol)
01:13 < Aliks> basically the idea is to help people get a grip on how the economy is working in reality...
01:13 < Aliks> who are their potential customers, employers, etc.
01:13 < Aliks> what kinds of products are people currently buying, which then indicates what sorts of needs/wants those people have
01:14 < Aliks> you can sort of infer what sort of innovations would work
01:14 < Aliks> and I'm going to try to explain that they should look at the underlying motivations, not what people are currently buying
01:14 < Aliks> like, the fact that people buy TP doesnt mean they want TP
01:14 < Aliks> if you invent a magic wand that cleans their ass, they'll buy that too
01:14 < Aliks> lol
01:14 < Aliks> anyway, thats the general idea
01:15 < Aliks> I got tired of dealing with business students who are totally clueless about how the market really works
01:15 < Aliks> have no idea what product to make, what to do, etc.
01:16 < randallagordon> I dig
01:17 < randallagordon> sounds like I need to keep a close eye on your writing...do you publish it publicly anywhere?
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01:18 < Aliks> I will be yeah
01:18 < Aliks> I need to reorganize my past writing
01:18 < Aliks> I dont get to do enough anymore.. I stay too busy
01:19 < Aliks> I just dont have enough hands... I'm sure you know the feeling
01:19 < genehacker> http://blog.makezine.com/hapy_birthday_linus.jpg
01:19 < genehacker> where is your god now?
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01:20 < QuantumG> http://www.imm.org/publications/pnas/
01:20 < QuantumG> what a revolution that sparked!  </sarcasm>
01:21 < Aliks> lol
01:23 < randallagordon> Aye, I tend to end up spilling many pots ;)
01:24 < Aliks> I wish there was a way to easily find collaborators on stuff
01:24 < Aliks> as it is it takes longer to find collaborators than to just do stuf
01:26 < randallagordon> Aye
01:26 < genehacker> what sort of stuff do you wish to collaborate on?
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01:29 < Aliks> genehacker, I have so many projects its hard to say... pretty much anything i'm working on... right now doing some scraping/database insertion of census bureau data... lol
01:29 < Aliks> I'll have to make a list
01:29 < randallagordon> Does anyone have any good sources of information on patent law regarding DIY projects? Does the simple act of creation cause violation, or must it first be commercialized?
01:30 < Aliks> good question
01:30 < Aliks> we should have a DIY Legal FAQ
01:30 < Aliks> diylegal.com? lol
01:33 < randallagordon> I'd also love some quality sources for info about ensuring ideas are forced into the commons, making them unpatentable...I'm finding that Google is worthless on this front, as the simple addition of the word "patent" to any search leads to an endless mess of "Patent your idea yourself" sites...
01:34 < Aliks> yes
01:35 < Aliks> I'm having a similar issue actually
01:35 < Aliks> I have an idea that I don't want someone else to take and commercialize but I fear that without spending $100,000s on lawyers, my own patent efforts will be unsuccesful
01:35 < Aliks> lol
01:35 < randallagordon> There's all sorts of info catering to those who want to lock information down, making it difficult to uncover useful information for those of us who want to ensure it can't be locked down...
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01:39 < randallagordon> I have an interest in creating a retail ecommerce front that provides added value via DIY video tutorials, at some point I'm certain to step on someone's patent...I want to know what I need to watch out for.
01:40 < randallagordon> I've got no qualms about putting up something along those lines on my own personal site, but when it is connected to a commercial venture, it is more likely to garner negative attention from a patent holder...
01:42 < Aliks> yeah
01:42 < Aliks> sucks that the economy currently works that way
01:42 < randallagordon> For instance, if General Hydroponics were to hold a patent on the hardware for their Waterfarm systems, and I created a DIY video showing how to recreate something very similar "from scratch" or salvaged parts, where do I stand legally?
01:43 < Aliks> my personal view on that is, just try it and see what happens
01:43 < Aliks> use the money you earn from actually doing it to investigate the risks of continuing to do it
01:43 < Aliks> rather than incurring a lot of up front cost before you even start
01:43 < randallagordon> aye, I just don't enjoy the idea of watching hard work evaporate thanks to assinine laws which weren't readily apparent from the beginning
01:43 < Aliks> right
01:43 < Aliks> well, you shouldnt get on anyone's radar too soon I dont think
01:43 < randallagordon> but, I tend to think like you do ;)
01:44 < randallagordon> I tend to swat the beehive
01:44  * Aliks nods.
01:44 < randallagordon> albeit, usually indirectly
01:45 < randallagordon> anyone here have an interest in agriculture?
01:45 < Aliks> I'm interested, but no knowledge and not participating in any tech development in that area
01:45 < randallagordon> similar on my end, although I'm fostering it as a potential growth area
01:46 < randallagordon> have you ever seen Graze? http://graze.com/
01:46 < Aliks> nice
01:47 < Aliks> very cool
01:47 < Aliks> I had an idea for a study spot... would be similar.. just grazing food for while you study/work
01:49 < randallagordon> Ever since I came across Graze I've been wanting to see something similar stateside
01:49 < randallagordon> Finally have been made aware of this project: http://www.localfoodmarketplace.com
01:50 < randallagordon> My idea is to create an open source system for farmers to utilize, alongside a commercial hosted offering, ala SugarCRM and many other OS projects
01:52 < randallagordon> I have a vision of what could be possible if a consumer were able to log in and view via webcam THE head of lettuce that he or she will be receving when it is ready for harvest
01:52 < Aliks> lol
01:52 < Aliks> nice
01:52 < randallagordon> But, I'm not sure if that's just my geekiness, or if it something that a wider market would enjoy
01:53  * Aliks shrugs.
01:53 < randallagordon> More connection to the food, recognizing the hard work that goes into it, I feel is key to getting people to value what they're subsiting off of again
01:54 < randallagordon> subsisting, even
01:56 < randallagordon> Imagine tying it in with social networking aspects to facilitate recepie sharing, complete with an "Order the ingredients for this dish" button...subscribing to foods based off personalized nutritional plans...
01:56 < Aliks> that's pretty cool
01:57 < randallagordon> And on the geekier side, I dig on Controlled Environment Agriculture
01:58 < randallagordon> I'm thinking anti-Krispy Creme...instead of watching doughnuts being made through behind the glass, setup a health food bar, see your live food behind glass, watch the fruits picked from the vines/limbs, the sprouts harvested and then see them immediately tossed into the blender to make your customized smoothie...
01:59 < randallagordon> vertical hydro/areoponics systems, ala Omega Garden
02:01 < Aliks> I like the idea of the robotically tended microfarms
02:01 < Aliks> allows for a lot of local growing
02:01 < randallagordon> bingo
02:01 < Aliks> makes it economical on scales other than huge farms
02:01 < Aliks> microrobot equivalent to the giant wheat harvester
02:01 < randallagordon> I've got my own siphon based ebb & flow system setup in one of my spare bedrooms
02:01 < Aliks> nice
02:02 < randallagordon> I aim to continually improve on it, adding more automation as I can
02:02 < randallagordon> I picked up a Teensy uC board here a while back to use to create a realtime pH/TDS/temperature monitor...eventually I intend to pair it with an embedded web server and serve up the data all pretty like using AJAX and the Rapheal visualization library
02:03 < randallagordon> suppose I first need to get the sensors working ;)
02:05  * Aliks nods.
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02:41 < Aliks> almost time to test this
02:41 < Aliks> took longer than I thought to scrape this part of the data
02:43  * randallagordon needs to figure out what he's doing wrong with <audio> tag embedding so Chrome will play nice...
02:46 < Aliks> is that HTML5?
02:46 < Aliks> does chrome support it?
02:53 < randallagordon> yep
02:53 < randallagordon> it is part of webkit
02:53 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jaraoke/
02:53 < randallagordon> works in FF and Safari but not Chrome
02:53 < randallagordon> finally decided to take a closer look and see if I can't track down why
02:54 < Aliks> gahh DNS just un-propogated or something lol
02:58 < Aliks> test
03:00 < randallagordon> you're a test!
03:01 < randallagordon> ya know what's really cool? coming home to find your 4'x8' whiteboard covered top to bottom with Python code your fiance has hashed out while you were away...
03:01 < Aliks> lol
03:01 < Aliks> nice
03:02 < randallagordon> She's starting to design her first game...a basic biology sim
03:07 < Aliks> biology sim?
03:08 < randallagordon> she's just learning the basics of programming, so a little mixture of stuff to get acquainted with loops and flow control..."build a cell, step by step" kinda thing
03:08 < Aliks> nice
03:08 < randallagordon> so there's a giant elif block on the whiteboard :)
03:08 < Aliks> like... add lysosome... add golgi apparatus..
03:08 < randallagordon> bingo
03:09 < Aliks> RoughER.MakeProtein()....
03:09 < Aliks> very cool
03:09 < randallagordon> That'd be the next step, getting her wrapped around classes
03:09  * Aliks nods.
03:09 < randallagordon> at the moment it looks highly procedural...but looking at the code, it appears to be functional
03:10 < randallagordon> I'll have to find out tomorrow if she's typed it up and tried it yet
03:10 < randallagordon> showing her that bio is becoming yet another IT field has sparked her desire to learn to code :)
03:13 < randallagordon> hrmmm, I'm suddenly suspecting that the audio/Chrome issue is a mime type problem
03:13 < Aliks> lol
03:13 < Aliks> man, my code is acting funny..
03:15 < Utopiah> you might want to submit it to http://www.alife12.org/
03:17 < randallagordon> interesting
03:17 < randallagordon> If we take the idea further (possibility of creating a multiplayer web-based near-realtime game out of it) then, perhaps
03:25 < randallagordon> grrr, Chrome and audio just works goofy...need to determine if it is a Chrome/Ogg issue or if it is something goofy with the way Ogg is being served off my host
03:26 < Aliks> how do you make a game out of that?
03:26 < randallagordon> cellular biology?
03:27 < Aliks> yeah
03:28 < randallagordon> I believe she's thinking along the lines of some of the Facebook sim games
03:28 < Utopiah> randallagordon: might want to check few links I gathered on http://fabien.benetou.fr/ReadingNotes/Protocells
03:28 < randallagordon> ala CafeWorld
03:29 < randallagordon> although that idea wouldn't be alife caliber ;)
03:30 < randallagordon> But like...SimBody...manage what types of cells are put into production, game elements determine the "health" of the system
03:30 < randallagordon> I'm severly lacking on the biology end of the spectrum, so she'd have to make such decisions ;)
03:36 < randallagordon> so, yay, it is something on my server config that is making Chrome puke on Ogg
03:36 < randallagordon> yet Safari and FF stream it just fine
03:36 < randallagordon> and the MIME type is set to audio/ogg
03:36 < Aliks> 2 minutes to the public test of this lol
03:37 < Aliks> works!!!
03:38 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.png
03:38 < Aliks> is from ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ce/standard/2008/quintile.txt
03:38 < Aliks> generated for "all quintiles"
03:40 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_lowest.png, http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_highest.png
03:40 < randallagordon> nice
03:43 < Aliks> took longer than it should have but yeah, seems to work
03:47 < Aliks> biggest change I can see is personal insurance and pensions
03:47 < Aliks> I need to look into color coding this stuff better..
03:47 < Aliks> I wonder what google charts allows..
03:48 < Aliks> aha nce
03:48 < Aliks> nice
03:48 < Aliks> they allow a lot
03:49 < randallagordon> yaaay, Chrome is playing nice
03:50 < randallagordon> Should have thought  of this, but gzipping, hence, not sending Content-Length, is apparently confusing come time to playback files browser side... ;)
03:51 < randallagordon> aye, their API produces a lot of sexiness
03:51 < randallagordon> look at Rapheal, too
04:00 < Aliks> only thing I dont like is I can't find a way to keep the categories in order around the pie chart
04:00 < Aliks> it orders them by size automatically
04:01 < Aliks> btw new charts in color :)
04:01 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_highest.png, http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart_lowest.png
04:02 < randallagordon> fairly easy to make sexy charts using Illustrator, too
04:03 < Aliks> yeah
04:03 < Aliks> but this is all plugged in automatically
04:03 < Aliks> I can do like...
04:04 < randallagordon> Illustrator can import CSV and XML
04:04 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=7
04:05 < Aliks> that is the breakdown of food at home, away from home for average consumer
04:05 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=13
04:05 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-03_2231.png
04:05 < randallagordon> ahhh
04:05 < Aliks> that's an even more detailed breakdown of food at home
04:05 < randallagordon> very nice
04:05 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=19 breakdown of cereals vs bakery products
04:05 < Aliks> lol
04:06 < randallagordon> That chart is all done using Styles, so the data is still editable
04:06 < randallagordon> I <3 Illustrator
04:06 < randallagordon> As you can see, I didn't have any meaningful data to chart, however ;)
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04:07 < aliks3> back
04:07 < aliks3> looked at your chart
04:07 < aliks3> so thats all styles??
04:07 < aliks3> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_chart.php?id=37 <-- breakdown of meat consumption (in dollars) by average family
04:08 < randallagordon> Yep...3D extrude
04:08 < randallagordon> small slice with a white-to-white 100-0% opacity gradiant
04:09 < randallagordon> to get the 3D bevel effect
04:09 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-02_1936.png
04:09 < aliks3> lol nice
04:09 < aliks3> you're getting very creative with that API
04:09 < randallagordon> extruded slice...although I didn't do that one with Layer Styles...
04:10 < randallagordon> Oh, these are just done with Illustrator, not Google Charts
04:10 < randallagordon> although, using svg, it should be possible
04:11 < randallagordon> heck, a simple div with a 24-bit alpha channel PNG would pull it off
04:12 < aliks3> ah I see
04:13 < randallagordon> which, would be a nifty hack...give Google Charts that little extra flare over the next guy's charts
04:14 < aliks3> indeed
04:14 < aliks3> well, at the very least I can say I learned how to use google charts today lol
04:14 < aliks3> havent had a use for it before
04:15 < aliks3> yet another skill that will become obsolete whenever Google Charts becomes an obsolete technology
04:16 < aliks3> lol
04:16 < randallagordon> wahlah: http://randallagordon.com/jing/2009-12-29_0216.png
04:17 < aliks3> whats the data for
04:18 < aliks3> what's up with Jan, Feb etc?
04:18 < aliks3> have I given you my website address BTW?  I'm at your .com right now
04:19 < aliks3> I like meeting people that have their name as their .com lol
04:19 < randallagordon> I just pulled it directly off the Google Charts site...
04:19 < randallagordon> you haven't
04:19 < aliks3> msg'd it to you
04:20 < randallagordon> I see that now :)
04:20 < aliks3> our email also has the same format
04:20 < aliks3> firstname@first&last.com
04:20 < randallagordon> nice
04:20 < randallagordon> I've also got randallgordon.com
04:20 < randallagordon> just redirects
04:20 < aliks3> nod
04:21 < aliks3> if DNS will ever work properly I have the .net and .org of my name which will have different purposes
04:21 < aliks3> .net will be a social/professional networking site
04:21 < aliks3> .org will organize my charitable work etc.
04:21 < randallagordon> easier to build a distinct "brand" around Randall A. Gordon, however
04:21 < randallagordon> nice
04:21 < aliks3> not sure what my host is doing with the damn dns
04:22 < aliks3> was working a few hours ago
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04:26 < randallagordon> the .com is working fine for me, at least
04:26 < Aliks> yeah the .com should be, the .net/.org are more recent
04:26 < Aliks> .com's been up for several years
04:26 < Aliks> as you can see, the design is getting a little dated
04:26 < Aliks> 800px width and all
04:26 < Aliks> can't bring myself to change it though... I like the smoke stuff up top
04:27 < Aliks> never can seem to get quite that same look
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04:30 < randallagordon> It isn't broke, don't fix it
04:31 < Aliks> yeah, other things to spend my time on
04:31 < Aliks> wow, Bureau of Labor Statistics data is soooo much easier to handle
04:31 < Aliks> I'll be able to get employment info tomorrow in like 1 hour
04:34 < randallagordon> Reading through you musings, I like the way you think
04:35 < randallagordon> The No Bureaucrats Rule is spot on
04:40 < randallagordon> and Contingent Donations...<3
04:41 < Aliks> yeah I started doing those because I never have time to write full articles anymore, but I'm trying to fix that lol
04:41 < Aliks> thanks though
04:41 < randallagordon> I feel ya ;)
04:41 < randallagordon> I have a short blurb re: donations/charity on my own blog
04:42 < Aliks> I'll check it out
04:42 < Aliks> yeah the thing that got me to write the Bureau thing was when I was dealing with the school district
04:42 < Aliks> the college district that is
04:42 < Aliks> and I was offering to write them some free software that would help students
04:42 < Aliks> and they did everything possible to block me by denying access to information etc.
04:43 < Aliks> eventually had to just write a scraper and plow through a ton of raw data to get what I needed
04:43 < Aliks> was faster than dealing with their system
04:43 < randallagordon> heh, fun
04:43 < Aliks> ya
04:44 < Aliks> hmm got a link to your article? I cant find it
04:48 < randallagordon> http://randallagordon.com/blog/2009/01/02/thoughts-on-cash-donations/
04:50 < Aliks> I like it
04:50 < Aliks> yeah like I'm having an issue with Methuselah Foundation right now
04:50 < Aliks> several of us are actually on their forum
04:50 < Aliks> they move too slow
04:50 < Aliks> so a few of us decided to start our own similar organization
04:50 < Aliks> no star power like MF has, but at least we can work efficiently
04:50 < Aliks> and I like the idea of working with people who want to work efficiently
04:51 < randallagordon> Aye
04:59 < Aliks> booted
04:59 < Aliks> I think
05:05 < randallagordon> nope
05:07 < randallagordon> I'm about to pass out on my desk
05:07 < randallagordon> time for sleep
05:07 < randallagordon> catch ya later, bro
05:10 < Aliks> yo
05:10 < Aliks> you still there?
05:10 < Aliks> lol
05:10 < Aliks> quick thing to show you
05:10 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/bls_chart.php?id=0
05:10 < Aliks> anyway, catch you tomorrow
05:13 < randallagordon> yeah, I'm still buzzing around ;) lookin' good
05:17 < Aliks> yeah all BLS stuff is inputted, yay
05:17 < Aliks> thats actually a pretty good chunk of data to have fun messing around with
05:17 < Aliks> lol
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05:32 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtorg/cex_charts/animated_chart.gif :)
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07:36 < kristianpaul> Utopiah: http://www.ckan.net/
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08:20 < Utopiah> kristianpaul: thanks, it's in my dataset page since March ;)
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08:22 < kristianpaul> ah
08:22 < kristianpaul> hehe
08:22 < kristianpaul> i get lost in your dataset page atually :/
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11:08 < kanzure> hello Kuro_ 
11:08 < Kuro_> Hello, kanzure.
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11:20 < kanzure> 4-axis bioprinting http://www.washington.edu/dxarts/profile_research.php?who=kudla&project=EdenBumber
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11:53 < kanzure> hello transplexity
11:53  * kanzure goes to find lunch. then, off to write more documentation
11:54 < transplexity> hello kanzure. I'm watching your video now. Civilizations seeds... Cool.
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12:36 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbJnGH_PMWg a little amv on akira, lain, and GITS
13:01 < kanzure> http://gliffy.com/ diagram utility that runs in a browser
13:01 < kanzure> wtf latex doesn't natively support svg
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13:16 < kanzure> transplexity: what did you think after watching the videos?
13:17 < transplexity> Well...
13:17 < transplexity> This friend of yours has a curious worldview, don't he?
13:17 < transplexity> "In a lot of countries you don't have anything except for junk..."
13:17 < transplexity> C'mon...
13:18 < transplexity> I know people who would get really upset  :-)
13:18 < kanzure> when was that said?
13:18 < transplexity> ;-)
13:18 < transplexity> Oh close to the middle of the video I think
13:19 < transplexity> But that's ok, he said it in a positive mood...
13:19 < kanzure> there were three videos
13:19 < transplexity> SKDB: Downloading hardware over the web (Hplus Summit 2009) part 1/3
13:19 < kanzure> huh
13:19 < kanzure> okay
13:19 < kanzure> i think you're in brazil?
13:20 < transplexity> 08:22mins
13:20 < transplexity> I think you're right
13:21 < transplexity> And still limited to this planet...
13:21 < transplexity> I like the mind hive idea
13:22 < transplexity> Kind of bodies doesn't matter, you know?
13:22 < transplexity> Brains only
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13:25 < transplexity> I suppose there are other people around here that also live in Brazil, is this correct?
13:27 < transplexity> kanzure?
13:27 < kanzure> from time to time, like guido if he shows up today
13:27 < kanzure> but i don't, no
13:27 < transplexity> yeah I know
13:30 < transplexity> the group is quite inactive today
13:31 < transplexity> DIYbio, I mean
13:34 < transplexity> Oh, I think guido is Spanish or something...
13:34 < transplexity> Maria seems to be from Portugal
13:38 < transplexity> so kanzure, what you're doing right now?
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13:45 < technologiclee3> this is a good pic for H+/DIY Bio http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?ref=mb#/photo.php?pid=30388068&id=1481304697&ref=nf&fbid=1150859939954
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14:23 < flamt_> http://critterding.sf.net
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14:34 < kanzure> power went out
14:36 < thesnark> Storm?
14:36 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/skdb-tutorials/skdb-yaml-tut01.html
14:37 < kanzure> first go at a silly tutorial. feedback welcome.
14:50 < kanzure> ping pong
15:11 < randallagordon> I'll go over it when I get back home this evening, looks to be a great starting point
15:12 < randallagordon> IANAL, but I'd also be very careful about using the term "Lego", being that it is a registered trademark...
15:14 < randallagordon> Although I would hope that the folks behind Lego would be in support of SKDB...
15:15 < randallagordon> Being that they share philosophical similarities...
15:19 < technologiclee3> here is a video of the glove interface for tinmith http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/tinmith/videos/tinmith-glove-user-interface-oct2002.mpg
15:19 < thesnark> randallagordon can you really make that kind of an assumption though?
15:25 < kanzure> i'm not worried about lego-inc
15:28 < kanzure> more concerned about the quality of the tutorial
16:06 < randallagordon> thesnark, hence my usage of the word hope
16:07 < randallagordon> I do not make such an assumption, therefore, my concern for future legal issues
16:07 < thesnark> randallagordon right, I was just being way too focused on little details as usual
16:08 < thesnark> I'd like to point out that it's a legal security risk though :) however small
16:09 < randallagordon> and small thorns tend to get infected if they're not watched ;)
16:10 < kanzure> anyway
16:11 < kanzure> randallagordon: you said you got skdb working? and the visualizer?
16:11 < kanzure> i was wondering if you had any thoughts on what the tutorial should cover. assume that someone has got to your stage.
16:21 < aliks3> yawn
16:21 < randallagordon> I did indeed get it working, although I have yet to do anything beyond run the suggested lego and paths.py test scripts
16:21 < aliks3> actually I think there might be a way to make this fairly popular
16:22 < aliks3> what about marketing a product called the AnyToy
16:22 < aliks3> that creates any toy a kid wants
16:22 < randallagordon> The first "stumbling" block was how to get the packages...the git clone doesn't bring them down, so I assume they're not in the main repo
16:22 < aliks3> just insert raw materials and paint
16:22 < aliks3> download new toys off the internet
16:22 < randallagordon> (I'm a git newbie, btw, I've just used SVN, so this easily could be user error)
16:23 < randallagordon> I ended up just wget'ing the designfiles.org/packages/lego directory
16:23 < aliks3> new longevity organization site going live around the end of today
16:24 < aliks3> just got word from my cofounder that he'll be ready
16:24 < randallagordon> aliks3, I've been thinking in terms of "RedBox for stuff"
16:24 < aliks3> randallagordon, that'd be very cool
16:24 < aliks3> randallagordon thats one of the best applications I've heard so far
16:25 < aliks3> that way nobody needs to own the equipment, can let it be a little expensive for a while
16:25 < aliks3> until the price comes down to where they can buy the home version
16:25 < randallagordon> yep...an MIT licensed printer would do the trick, methinks
16:25 < QuantumG> "These Google guys, they want to be billionaires and rock stars and go to conferences and all that, let's see if they still want to run the buiness in two to three years." - Bill Gates, 2003.
16:25 < aliks3> hardware store could also carry a metalworking version... the AnyBolt or AnyScrew etc.
16:27 < randallagordon> Hrmmm, six years later, they seem to be still rocking it
16:27 < kanzure> randallagordon: they are obtainable through using the file in skdb/clients/skdb-get.py just type python skdb-get.py lego
16:28 < randallagordon> excellent, I figured there was such a get command...I have yet to actually dig through the source
16:28 < randallagordon> But, that would be something to have in the tut, for sure
16:28 < kanzure> :) okay
16:29 < randallagordon> I'll try to be a good guinea pig ;)
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16:29 < aliks3> however, for visionary people i'm a little disappointed at their results
16:31 < aliks3> like, where is Google WorldFarm, or Google Energy
16:31 < kanzure> aliks3: have you seen the tutorial?
16:31 < aliks3> or Google Unpatent Office
16:33 < aliks3> and of course Google University, Google High School, etc.
16:34 < aliks3> yes
16:35 < QuantumG> give it time
16:36 < QuantumG> http://knol.google.com/   Google Wikipedia
16:36 < randallagordon> Google still operates according to market realities
16:37 < QuantumG> not to mention regulatory
16:37 < randallagordon> Google "Energy" is actually maturing quite quickly, I was talking with my local power coop and they're working with Google to get smart meters rolled out
16:37 < QuantumG> if they had won the white spectrum bid we'd be seeing interesting wireless stuff by now
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16:37 < randallagordon> The power grid is a...special case...mainly thanks to regulatory issues, as QuantumG points out
16:37  * thesnark agrees with QuantumG, that was an important loss
16:37 < JayDugger> Hi, all.
16:38 < kanzure> JayDugger: can you drop a link to the google docs page?
16:38 < randallagordon> White spectrum bid? You mean the 700MHz bid?
16:38 < QuantumG> they got some concessions though.. and we'll see that soon I expect
16:38 < randallagordon> Whitespace is related, but separate
16:38 < JayDugger> http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQY8iyNeuVgwZHBjcmZyM184NmRodHZmZ2R0&hl=en
16:39 < kanzure> jay and i are editing the tutorial
16:39 < QuantumG> http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=8293
16:39 < JayDugger> That link leads to a draft of YAML and SKDB: Making a Super Lego.
16:39 < kanzure> i figure randall and aliks might like a shot at it
16:39 < aliks3> I read it and unfortunately I am not involved enough in it yet to have anything significant to add, kanzure
16:39 < randallagordon> The whitespace end of things is moving forward decently well at this point
16:40 < JayDugger> Did you catch any typos or grammatical errors?
16:40 < JayDugger> Did you find any cumbersome sentences?
16:40 < kanzure> aliks3: what i mainly need are people asking "wtf is this shit"
16:40 < randallagordon> I'm working on my bro to see if he's interested in putting his CAD skills to work to get the repository of parts bolstered
16:42 < aliks3> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/skdb-tutorials/skdb-yaml-tut01.html talking about this right?
16:42 < JayDugger> That's the original, yes.
16:42 < aliks3> yeah no issues for me
16:42 < aliks3> I didnt catch any typos but that doesnt mean there arent any
16:43 < randallagordon> kanzure, given that the list of what is "alredy functional" is up to date, I think simply getting the skdb-get details added in will make for a sufficient "get up and running" tutorial...from there, I'd say focus efforts on a tutorial that explains the basics of "package creation"
16:43 < aliks3> Re: the nit pick at the start of the new draft..
16:44 < aliks3> I dunno about "". vs "."  Personally I go with "". even though it is "wrong" because it seems more logically correct
16:45 < JayDugger> Yeah, that's turning into common usage, just as only pedants remember "issue" and "problem" have different meanings.
16:45 < aliks3> right
16:45 < kanzure> randallagordon: okay
16:46 < kanzure> randallagordon: the installation procedures are going to become radically simpler when we get a .deb created
16:46 < randallagordon> I agree with aliks3 on the quotes issue, this is something that is starting to become recognized by the style manuals as well
16:47 < randallagordon> kanzure, great to hear...that should make life much nicer for getting people with drafting skills involved
16:48 < randallagordon> (who don't also posess coding skills)
16:48 < JayDugger> Does the document's logical layout need to exactly match the "Topics covered" list?
16:49 < randallagordon> wow...IRC reveals just how bad of a speller I am...
16:49 < JayDugger> I.e., a discussion of SKDB, a discussion of YAML, a discussion of packages, and then HOW-TO share a Super Lego?
16:50 < JayDugger> That way the document's body matches the Topics covered list.
16:50 < JayDugger> Tell them what you're going to tell them, and then tell them.
16:53 < kanzure> hrm
16:53 < JayDugger> Does Lego need a capital "L?"
16:53 < JayDugger> Does Python?
16:54 < kanzure> urm
16:55 < kanzure> proper nouns are supposed to be capitalized i think
16:55 < kanzure> pythonocc should be pythonOCC
16:55 < JayDugger> And how many hyperlinks per pargraph before they turn into noise? Only one, I think, but YMMV.
16:55 < JayDugger> Proper nouns, aka names, take an initial capital.
16:56 < JayDugger> CamelCase trumps that, and so does your example of pythonOCC.
16:56 < randallagordon> Titles should be spelled how the creator spelled them
16:57 < JayDugger> Yes.
16:58 < randallagordon> I'm a stickler for that since ILoveMyCamelCase ;)
16:59 < randallagordon> also, is there an skdb-list command yet? that should be alongisde -get in the tut if there is (again, sorry, I really need to familiarize myself with the source)
16:59 < JayDugger> I added a few lines in the Style "Header 3" to mark the logical divisions listed in "Topics covered."
17:00 < JayDugger> I feel a bit reluctant to cut-and-paste the sections from the draft under the new headers.
17:00 < JayDugger> I don't want to make a mistake by mis-assigning a section.
17:00 < JayDugger> But since it's a draft, and since we've some change history...
17:01 < QuantumG> I've yet to read one of these "shit that happened in the last 10 years" articles that actually impressed me.
17:02 < QuantumG> but I guess I'm looking for someone who actually remembers the last 10 years
17:02 < QuantumG> and not just the last 2.
17:03 < aliks3> lol
17:03 < aliks3> last 10 years has actually been mildly impressive
17:04 < aliks3> I mean, CRT monitors to almost all flat screen
17:04 < aliks3> from very very basic cellphones to very complex smartphones
17:04 < aliks3> processor speed continued to increase
17:04 < randallagordon> ...wow...it has been 10 years since I had a land line....
17:05 < aliks3> digital cameras from like 1 megapixel to 12 now in a cheap model
17:05 < aliks3> 1-5 gb hard drives to 1 TB
17:05 < randallagordon> 12 crappy, noisy megapixels :P
17:05 < aliks3> lol
17:05 < aliks3> randallagordon thats why you buy 100 and set them up in a 10 x 10 grid
17:05 < aliks3> and process the images lol
17:06 < aliks3> to get yourself a 500MP camera
17:06 < QuantumG> so far everything you've said has been "existing technology progressed along well established development lines"
17:06 < JayDugger> I suggest adopting the same typographical conventions as O'Reilly.
17:06 < aliks3> QuantumG, yeah I suppose so
17:06 < randallagordon> I'll take an oldschool 4MP full-frame sensor over any of today's 12MP tiny as hell sensors :P
17:06 < JayDugger> SpaceShip One?
17:06 < aliks3> QuantumG nothing disruptive, you're right
17:06 < JayDugger> XCOR?
17:06 < aliks3> I blame Bush
17:06 < QuantumG> yep, the X-Prize was won, that was an event - it went no-where, but it happened
17:06 < JayDugger> Laser-based video projectors, though those aren't on the home entertainment market.
17:07 < aliks3> Wolfram Alpha kind of was a thing... but not all that big of a thing
17:07 < randallagordon> And it is within the last 2 years ;)
17:07 < aliks3> I think the only innovations anyone here will see as important are cures for cancer, aging, AI, nanotech...
17:07 < QuantumG> wide-screen tvs (plasma, lcd, etc) happened.. that's certainly new and came out of no-where
17:07 < aliks3> QuantumG, I dont know about you but over the last 15 years at least I've noticed life has gotten a lot more colorful
17:08 < JayDugger> Most of the readers will probably have at least one O'Reilly book. The conventions will appear familiar and O'Reilly won't complain.
17:08 -!- aliks3 is now known as Aliks
17:08 < randallagordon> now we just need large, high resolution displays, but first we need to get the home theater nuts to shut up about not needing anything more than 2K resolution...
17:08 < QuantumG> my parents were travelling around Australia for the first half of this decade.. they came back and decided to buy a tv and were like "where the hell did all this stuff come from?"
17:08 < Aliks> as in, seems like all the packaging, clothes, everything has become very vibrant
17:08 < Aliks> the damn towels at Target come in like 25 colors
17:08 < randallagordon> Aliks, you didn't live through the 80s, did you? ;)
17:08 < Aliks> I remember the 90s being a lot less vibrant feeling
17:08 < Aliks> randallagordon, no I was barely aware
17:08  * randallagordon remembers NEON EVERYTHING
17:08 < Aliks> was born in 1983
17:08 < JayDugger> If you make them styles in your editing software, then you've got good consistency.
17:09 < randallagordon> Ah, well, I'm only one year older ;)
17:09 < JayDugger> Yeah, I remember less eyestrain after '89.
17:09 < QuantumG> DVDs came out in Australia in 1999
17:09 < randallagordon> I had neon green "hammer pants", lol
17:09 < randallagordon> You can't touch this!
17:10 < JayDugger> therealepicureanideal--did you get the Google Docs invite I sent?
17:11 < randallagordon> QuantumG, followed by optical dying circa 2009 ;)
17:11 < JayDugger> Does SKDB stand for anything?
17:11 < kanzure> social knowledge engineering database
17:11 < randallagordon> Serial Killer DataBase ;)
17:11 < Aliks> JayDugger yep 
17:11 < QuantumG> Gmail was launched as an invitation-only beta release on April 1, 2004 and it became available to the general public on February 7, 2007.
17:11 < JayDugger> Seriously?
17:12 < QuantumG> Yahoo! Mail was inaugurated in 1997 
17:12 < randallagordon> ...that's something...cloud based services have come into their own over the last 10 years, but I think the next 10 will be seen as the decade they truly blossom
17:13 < JayDugger> Eh...
17:13 < QuantumG> I can't remember how much WiFi there was around in 2000
17:14 < QuantumG> The term Wi-Fi, first used commercially in August 1999.
17:14 < randallagordon> not much, but it was getting rolling
17:14 < JayDugger> as the relative costs of storage space and bandwidth trade off, you'll see the pendulum swing between "cloud" or "time-sharing" and "local" or "personal" computing.
17:15 < QuantumG> The iPod is a portable media player designed and marketed by Apple and launched on October 23, 2001.
17:15 < QuantumG> of course, there were mp3 players before it
17:16 < randallagordon> heh, I remember wanting a Diamond Rio so bad
17:16 < kanzure> i have a rio in a box somewhere
17:16 < superkuh> I have two of them!
17:16 < kanzure> does anyone want it?
17:16 < superkuh> RioPMP 300
17:16 < QuantumG> The Rio PMP300 from Diamond Multimedia was introduced in September 1998
17:17 < JayDugger> I suggest indenting all code blocks.
17:17 < superkuh> Both of the battery latch covers have broken. I'd be surprised in a PMP300 with a battery cover intact is left on this earth.
17:17 < kanzure> jay	okay
17:17 < QuantumG> C99 started being implemented around 2002
17:18 < QuantumG> .. it took 3 years to get over the shock of how horrible a job the committee did
17:18 < QuantumG> .. and it's still not fully implemented by any compiler today
17:18 < JayDugger> "Sometimes you want to make new instances of legos, with particular parameters and specifications. Maybe you want a Super Lego , with a width of 20 m and a thousand pegs."
17:18 < JayDugger> These two sentences have a problem.
17:19 < kanzure> "The idea is to create a milling machine with a precision of 20-10 microns at cutting speeds of 20 m/s and traverse speeds of 50 m/s. The total cost of the components is to be equal or less than $20,000 USD and the first prototype will be delivered in February. "
17:20 < JayDugger> The first one describes the instance of an object (I think). The second describes a hypothetical physical object (thing?) as the manufactured example of the software object.
17:20 < JayDugger> Ah, kanzure, I think you missed your paste target.
17:20 < JayDugger> That would be a neat tool, though.
17:20 < kanzure> that's the one that jorge barrera made for mfg.com
17:20 < randallagordon> OMG, gotprint.com needs to learn what AJAX is
17:21 < QuantumG> After the 2002 launch of Friendster, several eUniverse employees with Friendster accounts saw its potential and decided to mimic the more popular features of the social networking website, in August 2003.
17:21 < randallagordon> change an option, reload, change an option, reload, change an option, reload, GAH!
17:22 < randallagordon> heh, Friendster
17:22 < QuantumG> that's something that happened this decade and we're only starting to feel the real effect of.... the social networking website phenomena.  
17:22 < JayDugger> Those two sentences don't clearly label the transition from discussing the software object and the physical artifact.
17:22 < JayDugger> For skdb developers, no big deal
17:23 < JayDugger> For the possibly-naïve reader, it could act like the tripwire for a confusion mine. :)
17:23 < randallagordon> I can certainly agree with that QuantumG
17:24 < randallagordon> So far, social networking seems to be the best example
17:24 < kanzure> JayDugger: i see
17:25 < QuantumG> International Genetically Engineered Machine (iGEM) competition started in 2003.
17:25 < JayDugger> You can't download hardware from the web. You can download software that will make hardware from the web.
17:25 < kanzure> JayDugger: sorry, but we're here to make it happen
17:26 < kanzure> that's like telling me i can't print something you scan in with your fax machine
17:26 < JayDugger> :) Point taken.
17:26 < JayDugger> Yes, exactly like that!
17:26 < JayDugger> You need a printer, and I need a fax machine.
17:27 < kanzure> well, most people have hands
17:27 < kanzure> and we have to assume they have at least some resources available- these assumptions will be made clear in due time of course
17:27 < randallagordon> JayDugger has a good point...it is a subtle difference, but the instatiation of an object and the object's definition are two different things
17:27 < QuantumG> The human genome draft was released in 2000.......... and none of the bold predictions that resulted have come to pass :)
17:27 < JayDugger> Okay, I'm with you on that.
17:27 < JayDugger> Does this piece of documentation need to make the point obvious in these two sentences?
17:27 < kanzure> i'm not sure which two sentences you're talking about
17:28 < JayDugger> At this point, would working to make it clear help--ah..."Sometimes you want to make new instances of legos, with particular parameters and specifications. Maybe you want a Super Lego , with a width of 20 m and a thousand pegs."
17:28 < JayDugger> Sentence one refers to the software object, I think, and sentence two refers to a physical artifact.
17:28 < kanzure> oh, well, no
17:29 < kanzure> i wasn't trying to distinguish the two
17:29 < JayDugger> Okay, that explains it. :)
17:29 < kanzure> the first sentence can apply to either hardware or software data
17:29 < kanzure> the second sentence is the same, except obviously the user might be wanting to literally make it
17:30 < JayDugger> So the two sentences have intentionally vague referents to reinforce the idea of fabricating a specific part from a class?
17:31 < kanzure> yes
17:31 < QuantumG> http://openwetware.org/wiki/Engineering_BioBrick_vectors_from_BioBrick_parts/Colony_PCR_protocol_-_source_code
17:31 < JayDugger> Alright. I misunderstood the point.
17:31 < QuantumG> what's that?
17:31 < kanzure> QuantumG: it's a lame attempt at "instructions" written in code
17:32 < QuantumG> k
17:32 < kanzure> look up "biostream" or "biocoder"
17:32 < Aliks> BioCoder, yeah it sucks
17:32 < kanzure> Aliks: we wanted to do something like that with skdb
17:32 < kanzure> but so far i haven't figured out a good way to do it
17:32 < Aliks> kanzure, I prefer my idea of just having an "ambiguity check"
17:32 < kanzure> their way sucks
17:32 < Aliks> [A] *click* [ 3 ambiguities found: ... ]
17:32 < kanzure> here's what i was trying:
17:32 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py
17:32 < kanzure> but it's even wrose
17:33 < kanzure> i want to be able to have these instructions translated into text, graphics, or 3D animation
17:33 < kanzure> (i.e. virtual agents demonstrating what to be doing)
17:33 < kanzure> the hard part is that you can't assume everyone who writes the instructions is going to be some computational linguist genius
17:33 < Aliks> right
17:33 < QuantumG> ok, say I have a vial of appropriate bacteria, a vial of a specific dna sequence (both ordered online), I wanna put the dna into the bacteria.. what's the protocol called and what equipment do I need?
17:33 < kanzure> it requires some fairly hardcore programming skills :p
17:33  * Aliks nods.
17:33 < Aliks> unfortunately the world is not us lol
17:33 < kanzure> QuantumG: transfection
17:34 < Aliks> I suspect an ambiguity check combined with a "markup helper" might work
17:34 < kanzure> QuantumG: there are many different protocols for it. you can do a calcium chloride protocol, AFM probe tip infection, gene gun (an inverted .22 caliber), ...
17:34 < Aliks> for example...
17:34 < Aliks> I click [A] and it says ok you're ambiguous in these 3 places, they fix it, then...
17:34 < kanzure> sorry but to do an ambiguity check, you need to have the computer able to parse and understand the text
17:34 < kanzure> and i don't want to do a natural language thing
17:34 < Aliks> it goes through and says "you are using a world that has the following possible meanings (even though the sentence is not ambiguous to a human, but this is for an automated machine to read rather than a human)...
17:34 < Aliks> er word
17:35 < Aliks> kanzure, I dont think it would be that hard
17:35 < Aliks> doesnt need to actually understand
17:35 < Aliks> just needs to see patterns
17:35 < Aliks> for example...
17:35 < kanzure> english sucks though
17:35 < kanzure> let's not encourage it
17:35 < Aliks> just by trial and error, and finding ambiguities you personally encounter...
17:35 < QuantumG> HEPES-buffered saline solution (HeBS) containing phosphate ions is combined with a calcium chloride solution containing the DNA to be transfected. When the two are combined, a fine precipitate of the positively charged calcium and the negatively charged phosphate will form, binding the DNA to be transfected on its surface. The suspension of the precipitate is then added to the cells to be transfected (usually a cell culture grown in a monolayer).
17:35 < QuantumG>  By a process not entirely understood, the cells take up some of the precipitate, and with it, the DNA.
17:35 < Aliks> make a thing that watches for when people say "it", "the instrument", etc.
17:35 < kanzure> i agree that there needs to be an ambiguity resolver
17:35 < kanzure> but that doesn't resolve the issue of the underlying format or representation
17:35 < Aliks> kanzure, I think I can work it out
17:36 < Aliks> if you can help provide some background info
17:36 < kanzure> Aliks: i suggest you read the email called "recipe representation"
17:36 < kanzure> there's a link to it here:
17:36 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/om.html
17:36 < kanzure> here we go: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/a8d8ee245aaae97d#
17:37 -!- Redeemer [n=lorddeem@c-75-72-218-226.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:37 < kanzure> hey Redeemer 
17:37 < Redeemer> Hey hey
17:37 < Aliks> here's a very very rough version 1 that would at least get something started, and get people used to the idea I think...
17:37 < Aliks> rules for the checker:
17:38 < Aliks> section that begins "equipment", followed by a numbered list of equipment
17:38 < kanzure> what is the checker processing
17:38 < Aliks> section that begins "materials", followed by a numbered list of materials and their quantities
17:38 < kanzure> have you seen the YAML format yet? it lists that information
17:38 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml
17:38 < QuantumG> so does this technique work on prokaryote cells?
17:38 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/data.yaml
17:38 < kanzure> QuantumG: yes there are multiple bacteria transfection protocols
17:38 < Aliks> section that begins "instructions", followed by a numbered list of instructions, each instruction must list at least 1 equipment, 1 material, etc.
17:38 < kanzure> QuantumG: http://protocol-online.org/
17:39 < kanzure> Aliks: so an instruction is just a list?
17:39 < Aliks> well the thing is, it's a totally dumb parser at this level
17:39 < kanzure> but how do you know what agent should be performing it?
17:39 < Aliks> it just checks to see that you've specified an actual thing
17:39 < Aliks> ah there we go, yes add in an agent then
17:40 < Aliks> so then it just checks to make sure you've given all the components for a "grammatically correct" instruction
17:40 < Aliks> you've got an agent doing something with (equipment) to (material)
17:40 < Aliks> if you dont have those, you're being oooobviously ambiguous
17:40 < Aliks> and then we can go from there to step 2
17:40 < kanzure> have you written parsers before?
17:40 < Aliks> yes
17:40 < kanzure> do they.. work? :)
17:41 < Aliks> I wrote a PHP extension that added operator overloading to PHP
17:41 < Aliks> or not extension, it parsed it and then spat out regular PHP
17:41 < kanzure> php doesn't have operator overloading?
17:41 < Aliks> no
17:41 < kanzure> huh
17:41 < Aliks> yeah it annoys e
17:41 < Aliks> *me
17:41 < kanzure> php5 too?
17:41 < Aliks> yep and 6
17:41 < kanzure> so, if you want to write a parser for this, that would be great
17:41 < kanzure> pyparsing is the common parser for python projects
17:41 < Aliks> I dont have a problem with that
17:41 < Aliks> I just need some example instructions as people would write them in plain english
17:42 < Aliks> and then I can start working from that
17:42 < kanzure> one of the ideas that i had was that it would be neat to put instructions in Cheetah templates
17:42 < kanzure> the email i linked you to has some examples
17:42 < Aliks> which?
17:42 < kanzure> if you need more, i have a few from an F16 maintenance manual
17:42 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/a8d8ee245aaae97d#
17:42 < Aliks> Chocolate Chip Cookie Ingredients
17:42 < Aliks> * 3/4 cup sugar
17:42 < Aliks> ?
17:42 < kanzure> there are lots of examples throughout the thread
17:42 < kanzure> that was a list of material requirements for making chocolate chip cookies
17:43 < Aliks> I see
17:43 < kanzure> i originally got the F16 instructions from a paper: http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/
17:43 < Aliks> well, I'm coming from the perspective of chemistry
17:43 < kanzure> let me see if i can find the .txt file of notes
17:43 < Aliks> like.. I have these reagents, here are the steps to react them..
17:43 < kanzure> Aliks: jonathan cline was working on a parser that would take plain english biology protocols and try to parse them into something usable
17:43 < kanzure> he never released his grammar files though
17:43 < Aliks> hm
17:43 < Aliks> wonder why not
17:43 < kanzure> he's weird like that from time to time
17:43 < kanzure> anyway
17:43 < Aliks> maybe I shouldnt duplicate his work if he's already doing that
17:43 < kanzure> if you would like a data set to play with, 
17:44 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/protocol-online/
17:44 < kanzure> no you should probably do it. he won't share it
17:44 < kanzure> i scraped protocol-online and grabbed all their protocols
17:44 < kanzure> it's mostly biology-science lab protocol stuff
17:44 < kanzure> but there's some chemistry IIRC
17:44 < JayDugger> Which paper has the F16 instructions, kanzure?
17:44 < Aliks> well the way I write the parser is going to be application specific
17:45 < kanzure> JayDugger: the one by matt stone. 1999. 
17:45 < Aliks> so maybe I should work on your guys' application first
17:45 < kanzure> Aliks: don't bother writing a parser per se.
17:45 < kanzure> yes please
17:45 < kanzure> so, YAML is already a "parser"
17:45 < kanzure> what we need is the checker/evaluator
17:45 < kanzure> check out the .yaml files http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml
17:45 < kanzure> so assume that your input is a string in python
17:45 < kanzure> representing (i guess?) a single step
17:46 < kanzure> if you need a shell on a server i can hook you up with a login
17:46 < Aliks> hmm
17:46 < Aliks> input is python?
17:46 < kanzure> JayDugger: http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/Automating%20maintenance%20instructions%20study.pdf
17:46 < kanzure> Aliks: no
17:46 < Aliks> there's no english language description of the processes?
17:46 < kanzure> of what process?
17:46 < Aliks> building something
17:46 < kanzure> YAML is a way of writing really simple data files. it's a data serialization standard
17:47 < Aliks> hmm
17:47 < Aliks> ok
17:47 < kanzure> the advantage is that humans can read it
17:47 < Aliks> barely
17:47 < kanzure> so in skdb, we say "yaml.load(contents of some file)"
17:47 < kanzure> the typical way of doing this in python is with something called "pickle"
17:47 < kanzure> but the problem with pickle is that you can't read the output/input
17:48 < Aliks> ok so continue, what exactly would I be checking
17:48 < kanzure> so, when yaml.load() runs, it looks at the input and constructs a hierarchy or list of objects (instances of whatever python classes are in your project)
17:48 < kanzure> well it sounds like your idea is that the end-user or package maintainer writes down a list of instructions
17:48 < kanzure> in python there is a "list" object that yaml automagically deals with
17:48 < kanzure> so you would look at the list, and take the first step (the first item in the list)
17:48 < kanzure> which will be a string
17:48 < kanzure> and then run your magic over it
17:49 < kanzure> so you don't have to write a yaml parser
17:49 < kanzure> that's mainly what i'm trying ot say. there's a lot here that's already done for you
17:49 < kanzure> but there's no parser for an "instruction" 
17:49 < kanzure> or "step"
17:49 < Aliks> ok
17:49 < JayDugger> I think the section "What is YAML?" needs work.
17:50 < Aliks> so there's a list and there's an item in teh list
17:50 < Aliks> what's in the list item?
17:50 < kanzure> the list is a list of strings
17:50 < kanzure> the string is a "step" or "instruction"
17:50 < Aliks> ok
17:50 < kanzure> so if you were totally a function-oriented programmer, you would have something like
17:51 < kanzure> def my_parser(step_text_goes_here)
17:51 < Aliks> so lets say I have Instructions.GetNext()
17:51 < kanzure> okay
17:51 < Aliks> I get the next sequential instruction
17:51 < Aliks> what's it say?
17:51 < JayDugger> The first sentence explains what YAML does, but the code snippet and the following text don't explain "why you should be interested in YAML for SKDB."
17:51 < kanzure> Aliks: whatever the user wrote down
17:51 < Aliks> what might what they wrote down look like
17:51 < Aliks> for SKDB
17:51 < kanzure> haha i thought you were the one proposing what it would look like
17:51 < Aliks> ohhh
17:52 < JayDugger> The reader goes through the code snippet, sees no YAML, and then gets the punchline: "Hidden."
17:52 < Aliks> now I understand the confusion
17:52 < Aliks> gotcha
17:52 < kanzure> JayDugger: yes i suck
17:52 < Aliks> ok so I have some flexibility here
17:52 < JayDugger> Easy, kanzure. :)
17:52 -!- transplexity [n=chatzill@c9153a4a.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:52 < kanzure> Aliks: but know that there's some stuff in skdb already.. like, check if a machine tool is actually specified in the metadata for dependencies, etc.
17:52 < kanzure> JayDugger: no no i just mean i need to improve it
17:52 < Aliks> kanzure, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I'm not sure what the nature of the instructions would be
17:53 < Aliks> trying to get an idea of what sort of data I'd be handling
17:53 < kanzure> Aliks: my hint would be to read over that email thread, look at the link i gave jay
17:53 < JayDugger> Okay. I'll comment that bit.
17:53 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/instructions/Automating%20maintenance%20instructions%20study.pdf
17:53 < Aliks> ok
17:53 < kanzure> also there's this data set: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/protocol-online/
17:53 < kanzure> that's mostly biology instructions, but to be honest i think this should support it in general
17:53 < kanzure> there's nothing outlandishly different between the different domains of instructions anyway
17:54 < Aliks> well there actually is
17:54 < Aliks> like for example...
17:54 < Aliks> in chemistry it's completely ok to say "add reagent to beaker, wait 5 minutes, produces HN03"
17:54 < Aliks> whereas for machines...
17:54 < kanzure> the real issue that i originally had with instruction generation was that i had to make a format that could be used to control machines but also humans
17:54 < Aliks> you would have to say "grind at angle of 35 degrees starting at 3d point (2, 15, 19.6) with pressure 15.6 psi..."
17:55 < kanzure> "add reagent to beaker, wait 5 minutes, produce HN03" <- that's something that your parser should be able to handle
17:55 < Aliks> "using grindermatic version 2"
17:55 < kanzure> how are those different grammars?
17:55 < Aliks> thats two different domains though
17:55 < Aliks> its toooootally difference
17:55 < Aliks> er different
17:55 < Aliks> one has spatial awareness
17:55 < Aliks> and that's just one example of a different kind of awareness
17:55 < kanzure> oh, wait
17:55 < kanzure> well first of all, in the mechanical example, that's not something that the instructions would have
17:55 < kanzure> there's something known as "gcode" for that
17:55 < Aliks> ok, thats what I'm getting at
17:56 < Aliks> this is what i mean by "what sort of data"
17:56 < Aliks> what sort of instruction
17:56 < kanzure> steps that humans will carry out
17:56 < kanzure> but they must be parsed into a form that we could offload the work to a machine in the future
17:56 < kanzure> or maybe not
17:56 < kanzure> you know what, i got stuck with that
17:56 < kanzure> so you should just avoid that
17:56 < kanzure> and we can fix everything later
17:56 < Aliks> well we gotta start with something
17:57 < QuantumG> "salt to taste"
17:57 < Aliks> I dont know where to draw the line
17:57 < Aliks> like, if I'm not saying..
17:57 < Aliks> "grind at angle of 35 degrees starting at 3d point (2, 15, 19.6) with pressure 15.6 psi..."
17:57 < Aliks> then what am I saying?
17:57 < Aliks> what's the instruction going to be like that I should actually handle?
17:57 < kanzure> Aliks: "connect lego 1 to lego 2 at pin.."
17:57 < Aliks> ok
17:58 < kanzure> or "apply a cold weld to the junction"
17:58 < kanzure> if i had an example corpus i would have solved a lot of this :p
17:58 < Aliks> yes that's a good idea
17:58 < Aliks> start now
17:58 < Aliks> like, whenever you find an example, just throw it in a page somewhere
17:58 < Aliks> lol
17:58 < Aliks> in 6 months it will be huge
17:58 < Aliks> and very useful
17:58 < kanzure> what's wrong with the email thread i linked you to?
17:59 < Aliks> kanzure, it wasnt specific to your domain
17:59 < Aliks> and I dont want to waste work handling the grammar of baking cookies
17:59 < kanzure> focus on the general parser first
17:59 < Aliks> general will takes 56 years
17:59 < Aliks> when do you want this done?
17:59 < Aliks> lol
17:59 < kanzure> putting a cookie in an oven is the same thing as putting anything else in an oven
17:59 < Aliks> ok
17:59 < Aliks> yeah I just didnt know if it needed spatial awareness etc.
17:59 < Aliks> that kind of thing
17:59 < Aliks> if it's just "do x to y" then that's easy
17:59 < Aliks> will work something up
17:59 < kanzure> let's assume no spatial awareness
18:00 < Aliks> just assume version 1 will totally suck
18:00 < Aliks> but by having version 1 you'll have something to point at
18:00 < Aliks> and say "hey we need this other thing"
18:00 < kanzure> do you have skdb installed and working yet?
18:00 < Aliks> no
18:00 < Aliks> not planning on it lol
18:00 < kanzure> do you have an ubuntu or debian machine somewhere?
18:00 < Aliks> no
18:00 < Aliks> not planning on it in the near future
18:00 < kanzure> how would you know if your code is working though?
18:01 < Aliks> can work on an example to test the concept
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18:02 < kanzure> JayDugger: btw, i really appreciate your help on the tutorial :)
18:03 < Aliks> hang on I'll work something quick up to show you what I'm talking about in the next 15 min or so
18:03 < JayDugger> You're welcome. I offered, after all.
18:03 < kanzure> your comments are spot-on btw
18:03 < kanzure> "not sure if this is really how things are supposed to work.."
18:03 < kanzure> well, you're usually right
18:04 < kanzure> it's really meant to be as simple as you're imagining it to be :)
18:08 < JayDugger> Good night, all.
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18:12 < kanzure> anything yet?
18:15 < Aliks> about 50% done
18:15 < Aliks> (with a simple test)
18:19 < Aliks> almost
18:23 < Aliks> making an example file for testing purposes
18:26 < Aliks> testing 1 sec
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18:31 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php
18:31 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instructions.txt
18:31 < kanzure> why did you come up with your own format
18:32 < kanzure> i thought i explained that someone already di that for you
18:32 < kanzure> *did
18:32 < Aliks> yeah but this is just for my testing purposes
18:32 < kanzure> but why would you put in more unknowns?
18:32 < kanzure> anyway, can you cp  the php file to a .php.txt or something?
18:32 < Aliks> well, I assume instructions come in the same way either way
18:32 < Aliks> done
18:32 < Aliks> just add .txt
18:33 < kanzure> hm
18:33 < Aliks> weird
18:33 < Aliks> one sec
18:33 < kanzure> heh
18:33 < Aliks> its all scrambled let me fix it
18:33 < kanzure> no it's good
18:34 < kanzure> (some of us don't actually use browsers)
18:34 < Aliks> http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php.htm
18:34 < kanzure> er this isn't a parser
18:34 < Aliks> or that
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18:34 < Aliks> no it isnt
18:34 < Aliks> but it works
18:34 < kanzure> so does windows.. supposedly.
18:34 < Aliks> its a checker
18:34 < Aliks> so now like I said, its totally horrible lol
18:34 < Aliks> so point out what I did wrong
18:35 < Aliks> so I can get what you need
18:35 < kanzure> well it's just a giant for loop
18:35 < Aliks> does it matter how its implemented if it works?
18:35 < kanzure> yes
18:35 < Aliks> all line-item processing code ultimately is a for loop
18:35 < kanzure> i'm not dissing for loops necessarily
18:35 < Aliks> line 1, line 2, line 3...
18:35 < kanzure> um
18:35 < kanzure> do you know how token parsers work?
18:35 < Aliks> yes
18:35 < kanzure> and you know that this isn't one, right?
18:35 < Aliks> find the tokens, add to symbol table
18:35 < Aliks> yacc/lexx etc
18:36 < Aliks> seems overkill for this
18:36 < Aliks> we can do something very similar without the headache
18:36 < kanzure> i guess everyone will use their own personal hammer
18:36 < kanzure> yes but someone already went to the trouble with http://yaml.org/ http://pyyaml.org/
18:36 < Aliks> well this is just to demonstrate the method
18:36 < kanzure> oh well
18:37 < kanzure> sorry i'm not more enthusiastic
18:37 < Aliks> well you werent meant to be
18:37 < kanzure> i'm just jaded and old
18:37 < Aliks> this is a shitty 15 minute thing
18:37 < Aliks> this is why I did it
18:37 < Aliks> now I see the YAML spec
18:37 < kanzure> there's already a php module for yaml
18:37 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/spyc/
18:37 < Aliks> spec is making more sense than the snippets were
18:37 < kanzure> er, yaml module for php
18:38 < Aliks> more importantly though, this shows that an instruction that doesnt have equipment or material in it gets flagged
18:38 < Aliks> which was really the point
18:38 < kanzure> and besides, you're just checking if a material appears in the string (based off of name)
18:38 < Aliks> yes
18:38 < Aliks> thats a very simple first thing to check
18:38 < kanzure> but i thought the idea was to check if the string makes sense
18:38 < Aliks> like I said, this is meant to suck
18:39 < kanzure> based off of a grammar?
18:39 < kanzure> okay
18:39 < Aliks> it will, eventually
18:39 < QuantumG> gah
18:39 < kanzure> well that's why i'm being so much of an ass right now
18:39 < kanzure> i don't think extending this method is good
18:39 < Aliks> I cant build a grammar with no examples
18:39 < kanzure> so it shouldn't be extended
18:39 < kanzure> but i agree that there needs to be something that checks if it makes sense
18:39 < kanzure> the output that you have is good
18:39 < kanzure> i mean, line by line "yep it's good"
18:39 < QuantumG> I just replied to someone off-list and they replied to list, quoting my email in entirety.
18:39 -!- El_Matarife [n=El_Matar@adsl-68-88-72-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"]
18:39 < QuantumG> what a dipshit
18:39 < kanzure> QuantumG: aren't people just wonderful
18:40 < Aliks> kanzure, so how would you want it to work differently, give me some input
18:40 < Aliks> but tell me how you want it to work
18:40 < Aliks> not how you want it to do it
18:40 < kanzure> give me a few moments
18:40 < Aliks> k
18:40 < Aliks> output is all that matters, IMO
18:40 < Aliks> everything else is ideological fluff
18:40 < kanzure> um, no
18:41 < kanzure> with that attitude, you'd rather make a .stl instead of a CAD model
18:41 < Aliks> .stl?
18:41 < kanzure> representation has a meaning you know :)
18:41 < kanzure> .stl is a mesh
18:41 < kanzure> CAD models can be converted to a mesh (.stl and then some)
18:41 < Aliks> well it depends on what you're using it for
18:41 < Aliks> I heard you saying yesterday .stl has problems
18:41 < kanzure> yes and if you have a good representation, it's reusable
18:41 < Aliks> so that's a legitimate reason for not using .stl
18:41 < Aliks> but that's still in the realm of "output" in my view
18:41 < Aliks> usefulness
18:42 < kanzure> are you familiar with unit tests
18:42 < Aliks> yes
18:42 < kanzure> anyway, here's what i was thinking: 
18:42 < Aliks> sorry, I have an odd style... lol
18:42 < Aliks> my style is... throw together something shitty, then iteratively fix it
18:42 < kanzure> for each line in the instruction set, run the line through a generic parser
18:43 < kanzure> the parser will spit out an abstract tree of steps (there's a class for this in skdb IIRC)
18:43 < kanzure> then, we'll throw that to the wind and have something run through a list of different checks
18:43 < kanzure> i.e. to make sure the structure of the tree is useful, meaningful, whatever
18:43 < Aliks> ok so we would figure out verb connections, subject, object, etc
18:43 < kanzure> i find that instructions tend to be more like an upside-down tree, where the root is the final product
18:44 < Aliks> well, that may turn out to be completely necessary
18:44 < Aliks> but I think we can get something that works reasonably well for what we actually want to accomplish within a matter of days by not overcomplicating it like that
18:44 < kanzure> so, checking that all mentioned materials exist, and that each step has all necessary components, would be a particular check on the abstract tree
18:44 < kanzure> this isn't complicated
18:44 < Aliks> otherwise I'm gonna have to scrape the OED and build an english grammar and all that
18:44 < Aliks> unless you mean something else
18:44 < kanzure> OED?
18:44 < Aliks> oxford english dictionary
18:44 < kanzure> oh boy
18:44 < kanzure> yeah
18:44 < kanzure> no thanks
18:44 < Aliks> lol
18:44 < Aliks> ok so maybe I'm misunderstanding you
18:45 < Aliks> ok so lets add some complexity to this one step at a time...
18:45 < Aliks> " each step has all necessary components", entails?
18:46 < Aliks> we know each step needs materials and equipment.  if we want to add complexity to that we need to add some context
18:46 < kanzure> i'm sorry, by "components" i meant that it had tokens that represent or refer to tools, materials, equipment
18:46 < Aliks> right
18:46 < Aliks> ok so here's where I'm at in my thinking about that
18:46 < Aliks> the reason I didn't do any more complicated check yet was partly to illustrate a point...
18:46 < Aliks> given that we know nothing about the materials and nothing about the equipment, ie. have no context
18:46 < Aliks> we cannot say whether there should be 2 or 5 or 12 materials listed
18:46 < kanzure> actually we do know about the equipment
18:46 < Aliks> or any relationship they should have to the equipment
18:47 < kanzure> that's what skdb is all about :p
18:47 < kanzure> that data is available
18:47 < kanzure> we know each part, tool, piece of equipment, how many ports/interfaces it has
18:47 < Aliks> great
18:47 < Aliks> so show me some of that data
18:47 < kanzure> and also acceptable ranges of inputs (like don't give 200V to your atmel AVR)
18:47 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/lego/metadata.yaml
18:47 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/screw/metadata.yaml
18:48 < Aliks> ok now I'm getting a better picture
18:48 < Aliks> startin to come together
18:48 < Aliks> ok so next to-do is to read in YAML using that code from the link you gave me
18:48 < Aliks> and insert that instead of the explode( lines)
18:48 < kanzure> why do it in php?
18:48 < Aliks> and then I can get some more detailed data about the interfaces
18:48 < kanzure> we already have all this code written
18:48 < Aliks> kanzure, because it's what I know
18:48 < Aliks> if you want to wait 4 weeks while I learn some python in my spare time..
18:48 < kanzure> it won't take you 4 weeks
18:49 < Aliks> I'm more doing this as a test of concept rather than a final implementation
18:49 < Aliks> ok but keep in mind there aer limits on my time
18:49 < Aliks> like.. 1 week learning python is a week I dont write my patent, or a week I dont build a website etc.
18:49 < Aliks> if I can do a concept demo in a language I already know hta'ts more efficient
18:49 < Aliks> we dont have endless time y'know?
18:50 < Aliks> but...
18:50 < kanzure> it's kind of like me storming into your php project and saying everyone should switch to ruby
18:50 < Aliks> I'm not saying you should switch to php
18:50 < kanzure> and then writing code like a madman that doesn't actually do anything
18:50 < Aliks> or even use this
18:50 < kanzure> then why are you bothering
18:50 < Aliks> this is just a demo
18:50 < Aliks> to show concept
18:50 < kanzure> but we already discussed the concept?
18:50 < Aliks> I have spent total 20 minutes so far
18:50 < kanzure> sigh
18:50 < Aliks> if you let it play out a bit I think you'd be less dissatisfied
18:50 < Aliks> but alright
18:50 < Aliks> show me your code
18:50 < kanzure> did you look at my links?
18:50 < Aliks> dude keep in mind I know 0 about your project
18:51 < Aliks> yes
18:51 < kanzure> wtf
18:51 < kanzure> i thought you watched the videos?
18:51 < Aliks> I did
18:51 < Aliks> but that doesnt show me your code base
18:51 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/core/ is the main "core" of the project
18:51 < Aliks> I know very little about what work has already been done
18:51 < Aliks> ok
18:51 < Aliks> reading
18:51 < kanzure> we have packages that are loaded up into python objects (just because we chose python)
18:52 < kanzure> these python objects are things like legos, screws, milling machines, centrifuges
18:52 < kanzure> these objects are given in the 'packages', which have instructions for building, based off of a list of 'dependencies'
18:52 < kanzure> the "instructions" aren't actually there of course ;-)
18:52 < kanzure> because we only had a few ideas like:
18:52 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/action.py
18:52 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/skdb/doc/proposals/pie.py
18:52 < kanzure> and now: http://www.aiyosolutions.com/dtnet/instruction_checker.php.txt
18:53 < Aliks> ok trying to get a handle on all this...
18:53 < kanzure> anything in particular?
18:54 < Aliks> yeah trying to get a sense of what your code all does, and where mine would fit in in your .py
18:54 < randallagordon> aye, that tended to be my stumbling block approaching SKDB...I get the overall idea, but it was difficult determining just what was already functional and available
18:54 < kanzure> if you were to write code that validated instructions and made sure they weren't bullshit or asking for impossible units/things, 
18:54 < kanzure> it would probably go in skdb/core/package.py somewhere in the Package class
18:55 < kanzure> because instructions are in a per-package basis
18:55 < kanzure> and i would expect each package to have different instructions :)
18:55 < kanzure> originally i was thinking that we should do instructions with Cheetah templates
18:55 < randallagordon> this new tutorial at least let's newcomers see something that is functional--that's a huge motivator
18:55 < kanzure> it's yet-another-template-system
18:55 < kanzure> it has the usual capabilities. inline python to do last-minute calculations. isinclude statements to import other files
18:56 < kanzure> http://cheetahtemplate.org/
18:56 < kanzure> so that way you could write something in the instructions that depends on the instructions for another piece of equipment
18:56 < kanzure> like if you're making a pie, you need to put the pie in the oven
18:56 < kanzure> and if you don't have an oven (and you're willing to make one), then the instructions for the oven should be included in an output
18:57 < kanzure> but again this is end-user stuff
18:57 < kanzure> instruction parsing, sense-checking, etc. is much more important
18:58 < Aliks> bleh where is there a 15 minute intro to python's essential functions and features
18:58 < kanzure> Aliks: try this? http://www.poromenos.org/tutorials/python
18:59 < kanzure> i suggest you get a good interpreter/interactive shell.. my favorite is http://bpython-interpreter.org/
18:59 < kanzure> it's an ncurses python interpreter, so it pops up and tells you member methods, variables, function docstrings, ..
19:00 < Aliks> ok well this is all the technical implementation details which we can worry about another time
19:01 < Aliks> I can always hire some Indian code monkey to translate PHP to Python if necessary
19:01 < Aliks> lets talk logic of how it works
19:01 < Aliks> so I need YAML.. lets see
19:01 < kanzure> well if you use yaml you'll need to rewrite the python code for the classes in skdb
19:02 < kanzure> for instance, we use a "!part" tag in yaml, which maeans that the object is of type Part (defined in skdb/core/part.py)
19:02 < Aliks> I thought you were currently using YAML
19:02 < kanzure> yes
19:04 < Aliks> k afk a sec workin on something
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19:10 < Aliks> Bad group name: m.Bad group name: m.
19:10 < Aliks> any idea what that means?
19:15 < Aliks> doesnt error out for spyc.yaml, so there might be a syntax error in your .yaml
19:15 < Aliks> for lego
19:15 < Aliks> yeah no error for screw
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19:25 < kanzure> that error doesn't make sense to me
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20:28 < kanzure> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1483 cathal's dremelfuge .. unfortunately only .stl and .scad files
20:30 < kanzure> if my audio was working i'd see what andrew is saying here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSY9EmXYMBE&feature=related 
20:30 < genehacker> it's singu
20:48 < ybit> er, i have that video on my server that is down
20:48 < ybit> same ol stuff
20:48 < kanzure> nothing enew?
20:48 < ybit> nope
20:48 < ybit> just talking about biobricks
20:49 < ybit> giving an intro
20:49 < kanzure> how is that diy?
20:49 < ybit> ..to drew endy and george church
20:49 < kanzure> oh well
20:49 < ybit> there may be more, i closed it after i realized i had already saw it
20:50 < ybit> a super lego?
20:50 -!- Trooem [n=adfasfda@S0106001d724fcb1d.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:50 < kanzure> hello Tro	
20:50 < kanzure> hrm, i'm really lagging tonight
20:51 < kanzure> ah that's better. forgot that my server rebooted.
20:55 < Trooem> is Tro me?
20:55 < Trooem> hahaha coool
20:55 < Trooem> hey
20:55 < kanzure> i tried typing Tro<tab>
20:55 < kanzure> Trooem: 
20:55 < kanzure> there we go.
20:56 < Trooem> yup i gotta watch your vids
20:56 < genehacker> are you sure you didn't run out of blood of the innocents for your time warner connection?
20:56 < genehacker> kanzure?
20:56 < kanzure> i filled it up this morning
20:56 < kanzure> so that can't be it
20:56 < genehacker> oh dear
20:57 < genehacker> so about the hackerspace meeting, you have absolutely no internet there?
20:57 < kanzure> that's right
20:59 < CIA-52> skdb: kanzure * r dd8abea /doc/proposals/ (instruction_checker.php instructions.txt): prototype instruction checker in php (why?)
21:01 < Trooem> you guys should use one of them remote USB remote internet, if it's a isolated place
21:01 < Trooem> but you get like 500mb per month bandwidth so..
21:01 < kanzure> nah it's not isolated
21:01 < Trooem> haha nvm
21:01 < kanzure> the guy's just lazy to pay for internet
21:02 < Trooem> oh lazy
21:02 < Trooem> no cure for that...
21:02 < kanzure> a kick in the ass maybe?
21:02 < Trooem> maybe maybe. or give him a reason to be greedy about...
21:02 < Trooem> motivate hehe
21:04 < kanzure> ybit: what did you think about the tutorial?
21:04 < kanzure> it's not finished yet
21:04 < kanzure> jay was very helpful today
21:04 < genehacker> perhaps some one going to the meeting has one of those USB phone network internet things
21:05 < ybit> kanzure: ~~
21:05 < ybit> okay, then if it's not finished, it isn't terrible
21:05 < kanzure> genehacker: or you could just come back to austin
21:06 < kanzure> john griessen (sensor network dood, among other things), james jones (cubespawn), martin bogomolni, les filip, ratha, a few others are going to be there
21:07 < genehacker> that is unlikely
21:07 < kanzure> oh, and jerry rutherford (supreme overlord of the austin robot group)
21:09 < ybit> genehacker: where are you currently?
21:10 < genehacker> Dallas
21:10 < genehacker> currently snowbound too, but that's not an issue
21:11 < kanzure> ybit: was wondering if you had some suggestions about what i should be writing about
21:11 < ybit> er...not atm
21:11 < kanzure> i don't think you've used any of the internal skdb tools yet (in python)
21:12 < kanzure> so your questions are probably as good as any other
21:12 < ybit> thanks for reminding me of what it isi was going to do
21:12 < kanzure> and what was that?
21:12 < ybit> internal sdb tools, such as?
21:12 < kanzure> the classes, functions
21:12 < ybit> .deb of course
21:12 < kanzure> "of course"
21:13 < ybit> you are free to fire me on jan 1 if i'm so terrible to not have it by then
21:13 < kanzure> didn't you say that three months ago?
21:14 < ybit> hah, sure
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21:16 < ybit> hey klord 
21:16 < kanzure> hey klord
21:16 < kanzure> hey, stop reading my brains
21:16 < klord> hey
21:17 < kanzure> Trooem: i met klord at a local austin event, turns out he's into affiliate marketing
21:17 < klord> heh, trying at least
21:18 < kanzure> er, for everyone else, he's a programmer and server admin dood :)
21:18 < genehacker> was he at the last meeting ?
21:18 < kanzure> what meeting?
21:19 < kanzure> i mean, which one
21:19 < genehacker> the one at your house
21:19 < kanzure> nah
21:19 < klord> was that the meeting you sent out to the 3ds list?
21:20 < kanzure> i hosted some fun people on a saturday to hang out and do some programming
21:20 < kanzure> anyway that was a few weeks ago
21:20 < kanzure> Trooem: are you alive?
21:21 < klord> ah, cool
21:23 < QuantumG> "supercold frozen hydrogen"  I don't think that means what they think it does
21:24 < kanzure> bose-einstein condensate?
21:24 < QuantumG> nah, they just meant liquid hydrogen
21:26 < genehacker> not solid hydrogen
21:26 < genehacker> *metallic solid hydrogen
21:28 < QuantumG> hmm.. no, seems they had it right
21:28 < QuantumG> http://wise.ssl.berkeley.edu/mission.html
21:29 < QuantumG> "filled with solid hydrogen"
21:29 < QuantumG> 15K
21:36 < Trooem> kanzure: i am. was just talking with the associate, figured out some stuff.
21:37 < ybit> someone visit http://openmanufacturing.org please
21:37 < Trooem> i am going to send you logins to whichever pages we rank, so you can attach google analytics to it.
21:37 < ybit> wanting to see how accurate the google anlytics are.
21:37 < kanzure> google analytics is terribly inaccurate
21:38 < kanzure> i had 200 people visit a page on the 25th, and google registered just 2 views
21:38 < ybit> this is what i gather
21:38 < Trooem> oh
21:38 < Trooem> there's many free tools at that bh forum i think maybe...
21:39 < Trooem> or you can always outsource with an idea. :)
21:41 < klord> blackhatworld.com?
21:41 < kanzure> probably
21:43 < Trooem> klord? affiliate marketer? cool
21:43 < klord> yeah, some interesting stuff on there
21:44 < Trooem> yeah... people aren't that courteous as they suggest in the postings though. haha...
21:45 < Trooem> klord, whats your primary source of traffic?
21:45 < Trooem> is that too personal?
21:45 < Trooem> :))))
21:46 < klord> nah.  i've really just dabbled.  i've tried advertising CPA offers with CPC media buys but have never been able to make it work profit wise
21:46 < klord> i'm building a twitter bot system at the moment
21:47 < Trooem> media buys. cool.
21:47 < Trooem> CPA networks cheat people off commission so badly... one needs to cheat them too hahaha
21:49 < klord> yeah, trying to come up with some more cheap/free ways of generating traffic
21:49 < klord> any legit ones?  I've tried copeac / azoogle
21:50 < klord> what types of affiliate programs do you do?
21:53 < Trooem> i've dabbled with all kinds but, any good results were from a particular information product 
21:53 < Trooem> which was about, well, making money haha
21:53 < Trooem> money sells money
21:53 < klord> yeah, that's what i've heard
21:53 < klord> and see advertised a lot
21:53 < klord> and have also been a sucker in buying
21:54 < klord> lol
21:54 < Trooem> me too, after being suckered in buying different info products, i realized that only trust-worthy ones are people who 'coach' personally 1 on 1. 
21:55 < kanzure> hm mplayer is acting up and playing my movies in french today
21:55 < Trooem> people who hide behind printed material is likely to have BS content
21:56 < danielfalck> kanzure: did the movie ratings go from G to R?
21:56 < Trooem> you gotta actually see their faces, be close enough to punch them, and they will indeed say the truth. hahahaha
21:56 < Trooem> hplus members should all go see Avatar.
21:56 < Trooem> that may be our future. LOL
21:57 < Trooem> which alien lifeform would you like to be ?
21:57 < klord> haha, true..makes sense
21:57 < klord> are you local to austin then too?
21:57 < Trooem> no i'm in Canada, vancouver.
21:57 < klord> ah, cool
21:57 < Trooem> i'll be meeting Kanzure soon :).
21:58 < kanzure> uh oh what?
21:58 < Trooem> well hopefully
21:58 < kanzure> oh right
21:58 < kanzure> just making sure i wasn't supposed to pick you up at the airport tomorrow or something
21:58 < Trooem> hahaha 
21:58 < klord> lol
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22:00 < kanzure> hm the dvd box says that the languages are english and japanese
22:00 < kanzure> but it wasn't english or japanese
22:00 < Trooem> yup LOL. i got there in Dallas airport once, and i wrote this cab in form of a van, these black guys were driving it, and though i suspiciously got in there with some other folks, i kinda felt i was being kidnapped... are they taking me to a remote place? 
22:00 < Trooem> LOL it was my first time there, to hilton hotel for this bootcamp meeting
22:01 < klord> hahah
22:01 < klord> the airport is about the furthest i've ever gone in dallas
22:01 < Trooem> kanzure, if you're using it to play movies, try this player:
22:01 < Trooem> http://www.gomlab.com/eng/GMP_download.html
22:02 < Trooem> never makes errors, and plays it streaming with right setting
22:02 < Trooem> it's good. better than divx...
22:02 < Trooem> player.
22:02 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:02 < kanzure> mplayer is the standard linux player
22:02 < kanzure> i just need to figure out which title on the disc has the english version
22:03 < Trooem> ow ok
22:03 < klord> what about vlc?  can throw pretty much anything at that
22:04 < kanzure> cool, i just had to pass -alang en to mplayer
22:04 < kanzure> mplayer dvd://1 -chapter 2 -softvol -softvol-max 500 -alang en
22:04 < Aliks> http://www.campaignagainstaging.org/ is officially launched
22:04 < Aliks> as of 30 minutes ago
22:04 < kanzure> "the matrix: reloaded" is much better in japanese though
22:04 < kanzure> maybe i should switch back
22:04 < kanzure> congrats Aliks 
22:04 < Trooem> you speak japanese kanzure?
22:04 < kanzure> campaign against the aging, huh Aliks? :)
22:05 < kanzure> Trooem: no, but i pretend i do
22:05 < Trooem> me too..
22:05 < Aliks> lol kanzure
22:05 < Aliks> kanzure, yeah we decided to keep it that way
22:08 < genehacker> I'm in dallas ask me anything
22:13 < klord> oh wait, i did go further than the airport
22:13 < klord> worked in the datacenter for a week in grapevine
22:16 < genehacker> oh that's a shame, you must not have seen the bladerunner tv screen buildings or the church the size of an arcology
22:17 -!- genehacker is now known as genehackersolder
22:18 < Trooem> klord: cool.....
22:19 < Trooem> why is everything in texas so damn big?
22:19 < Trooem> haha hilton hotel there is like.... 
22:19 < Trooem> tower of babel
22:20 < Trooem> and i've actually witnessed people wearing cowboy hats mwa hahahaha
22:20 < Trooem> :))))))) gtg research.
22:21 < Trooem> nope gtg pick up some groceries. vancouver is.. cold, damp and frosty. 
22:21 < genehackersolder> heh I drive by buffalos and longhorns nearly every day
22:21 < klord> genehackersolder: nah, i didn't really make it out of the hotel and datacenter much except for downtown grapevine
22:21 < QuantumG> anyone know what temperature the reprap melts the working polymer to?
22:22 < klord> Trooem: heh, yeah austin isn't like that so much...but i've seen it somewhere.  if you venture about 35 min outside of austin you get that as well as some amazing bbq
22:22 < genehackersolder> try asking #reprap
22:23 < genehackersolder> I think it's about 200 celsius
22:23 < QuantumG> that's what I thought but all I've found is "maximum of 250C"
22:23 < genehackersolder> http://dev.forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,31772,31772
22:23 < genehackersolder> 240C
22:24 < genehackersolder> why do you want to know?
22:24 < QuantumG> just thought it might be significantly lower
22:25 < QuantumG> but that does sound fine
22:25 < genehackersolder> well if you are considering something structural then you have to take softening into account...
22:25 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:25 < genehackersolder> *temperature softening
22:26 < QuantumG> yeah, was considering what kind of bacteria would be able to survive being bubbled through hot ABS/HDPE/PLA
22:27 < genehackersolder> oh
22:27 < genehackersolder> why do you want to extrude bacteria in plastic?
22:28 < genehackersolder> what are bacteria doing in plastic there's nothing for them to eat
22:28 < genehackersolder> *unless it's PLA
22:30 < QuantumG> presumably you'd mix some food in too :)
22:31 < QuantumG> just trying to think about programmable bacteria doing something interesting in a 3d printed object..
22:35 < genehackersolder> well I guess you could put in tiny microchannels then inject bacteria and supply food to them
22:36 < genehackersolder> perhaps you could make a smell dispenser using biobricked e.coli
22:36 < QuantumG> now that's a nice idea
22:37 < QuantumG> reprap needs automatic changeable heads
22:37 < QuantumG> ... presuming that it doesn't already
22:38 < genehackersolder> it doesn
22:39 < QuantumG> so there's a bunch of you on here that are apparently "gene hackers"
22:39 < genehackersolder> there's a design for one that 'works'
22:39 < QuantumG> (or "biohacker")
22:39 < genehackersolder> it's just my nickname
22:39 < QuantumG> xp_prg isn't on right now
22:39 < genehackersolder> there are no true 'biohackers' yet
22:39 < QuantumG> pfft.
22:40 < QuantumG> the kids that compete in the iGEM every year are biohackers in my book.
22:40 < genehackersolder> they're funded by universities
22:40 < QuantumG> so were mainframe hackers back in the day
22:41 < kanzure> xp_prg is a moron 
22:41 < kanzure> and should be avoided at all costs
22:41 < QuantumG> diy is orthogonal to hacker
22:41 < genehackersolder> good point
22:41 < QuantumG> diy-bio-hacker is a worthy goal though
22:41 < QuantumG> kanzure: so is there anyone around here who actually hits the wet lab regularly?
22:42 < genehackersolder> dammit why does the iGEM team have to suck here
22:42 < genehackersolder> drazak
22:43 < drazak> yo
22:43 < drazak> yeah
22:43 < drazak> not lately, busy with highschool stuff and college app stuff
22:44 < QuantumG> opinions on biohacking?
22:44 < drazak> as long as you have some idea what you're doing
22:44 < drazak> I don't know how well received this would be, but licensing, maybe
22:44 < drazak> that might be a good thing
22:45 < drazak> as much as I support people wanting to do everything at home, I don't support retards doing biology at home
22:45 < QuantumG> tell me, are there membrane penetrating proteins that you could use to selectively bind bacteria to bacteria?
22:46 < drazak> why? do you want to cause horizontal transfer?
22:46 < QuantumG> well, I'm curious whether it would make a gel
22:47 < drazak> doubt it
22:47 < drazak> if you want to make a gel transform them to make fibronectin or collagen, or both
22:47 < QuantumG> could you explain to me why it wouldn't work?
22:47 < genehackersolder> well if you get them to connect to each other it seems like it should...
22:47 < QuantumG> what am I not understanding?
22:48 < drazak> it would, I suppose, I just think it's awfully roundabout
22:48 < genehackersolder> I guess having them secrete long polymer chains would be better
22:48 < drazak> unless there's a specifc thing you want
22:48 < kanzure> QuantumG: yes you can selectively bind things together
22:49 < QuantumG> well, I'm imagining bacteria holding onto neighbouring bacteria under programmed control.
22:49 < kanzure> antibodies are a popular way. streptavidin is also popular. aptamers less so.
22:49 < drazak> yeah
22:49 < drazak> you could do it that way, I just think it's roundabout for making a gel unless you have a good reason
22:49 < kanzure> streptavidin/biotin
22:49 < kanzure> drazak: why are you making a gel?
22:49 < QuantumG> he was answering my question kanzure
22:50 < genehackersolder> yeah but is the strength of interbacterial bonds strong enough to resist shearing forces on a bunch of them so that they form a gel
22:50 < kanzure> i don't think it would make a gel anyway
22:50 < kanzure> and this is silly
22:50 < drazak> kanzure: he said he wanted to make a gel
22:50 < kanzure> what are you actually trying to do, QuantumG?
22:50 < QuantumG> that's what my question was
22:51 < drazak> kanzure: whcih is what I asked
22:51 < QuantumG> if it's silly, why is it silly
22:51 < kanzure> because it's not a gel
22:51 < genehackersolder> and if you bonded bunches of bacteria together they might die
22:51 < drazak> kanzure: which is why I said it's roundabout, because it's silly
22:51 < drazak> s/might/would/
22:51 < drazak> you'd get 8 hours max
22:51 < kanzure> that's not why it's silly
22:51 < kanzure> is a moss a gel?
22:52 < drazak> nope
22:52 < kanzure> what about fungi colonies
22:52 < kanzure> QuantumG: are you still on your diy-food-synthesis idea?
22:52 < QuantumG> say you made a bacteria with just 2 membrane penetrating proteins
22:52 < QuantumG> nah
22:52 < kanzure> wouldn't have to penetrate the membrane btw
22:52 < kanzure> there are proteins that can be moved to the outside of the membrane
22:53 < kanzure> sometimes these are called G-proteins (?) when they are on the inside
22:53 < kanzure> "integral membrane proteins" are also worth mentioning
22:53 < QuantumG> each of the proteins joins to another bacteria... so you get a congo line
22:53 < drazak> I think G proteins are different
22:53 < drazak> G proteins are in WNT signalling
22:53 < kanzure> ok i'd trust drazak on the g protein issue
22:53 < kanzure> g proteins are in everywhere IIRC
22:53 < drazak> they're in signalling
22:53 < kanzure> blah
22:53 < kanzure> okie dokie
22:53 < kanzure> so yeah, inside then :)
22:53 < drazak> they're one of the cross connects between all the different types of signalling
22:54 < QuantumG> would you get a congo line?  or am I misunderstanding what is possible?
22:54 < drazak> QuantumG: if you want cells to orient a certain way you can use fibronectin
22:55 < kanzure> ohh
22:55 < kanzure> do you mean gel as in, "crosslinked things" only?
22:55 < drazak> QuantumG: we see that most cell types with integrins align along the contours of the protein from how it set
22:57 < QuantumG> ok
22:57 < drazak> kanzure: yeah, found the paper on my desk here, g proteins can activate surface proteins from the inside as one of the end results of wnt signalling
22:57 < QuantumG> selective adhesion is probably what I'm talking about
22:57 < drazak> yea
22:57 < drazak> h
22:59 < drazak> go figure
22:59 -!- thesnark [n=michael@ppp-69-221-4-192.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has quit [""^o^ bed time""]
22:59 < QuantumG> so, and I apologize for asking a silly question, can you engineer a bacterial colony that forms into a film?
23:00 < drazak> well sure
23:00 < drazak> don't even really need to engineer it
23:00 < QuantumG> and would you do it like how I'm suggesting or is that dumb?
23:00 < drazak> kinda dumb
23:00 < drazak> different bacteria can do it
23:01 < drazak> hell if you don't let it grow to colonies, and use a spreader, you'll get a film of bacteria
23:01 < drazak> once it hits colonies you have the film with mountains
23:01 < drazak> that's just an agar plate
23:01 < QuantumG> ok.. but arn't they just bacteria in close proximity?
23:02 < QuantumG> I'm talking about a film you can pick up with a pair of tweezers
23:02 < drazak> oh, well
23:03 < drazak> you could put some fibronectin and gelatin or collagen and gelatin down on some plastic, spread the bacteria, incubate, and you'll have a film of bacteria and matrix
23:04 < randallagordon> I love this channel...where else would I jump back over to catch up after being away for hours and be confronted with "fibronectin" as the first word I see?
23:04 < drazak> heh
23:06 < QuantumG> ok.. say for an iGEM project (which you probably know are almost entirely of this variety) I said "make me a colony of bacteria that glows blue, floats on water, and will change from a star shape to a circle every 30 seconds"
23:07 < drazak> uhm
23:07 < drazak> good question?
23:07 < kanzure> 30sec is a pretty fast timing operation
23:07 < drazak> yeah
23:07 < drazak> it's fucking fantastical
23:07 < QuantumG> feel free to change any of the variables :)
23:08 < drazak> blue isn't hard
23:08 < drazak> I mean, it's not awfully hard
23:08  * randallagordon wants a bacterial desk lamp
23:08 < kanzure> no you don't
23:08 < drazak> floats on water, still not all that hard
23:09 < drazak> changes shape ever time? WTF?
23:09 < genehackersolder> heh just like kombucha
23:09 < randallagordon> I don't? I think I just said I did. ;)
23:09 < genehackersolder> maybe a light pattern
23:09 < genehackersolder> if you could make it like a cellular automata
23:09 < genehackersolder> but it seems a bit far fetched
23:10  * genehackersolder solders an expensive electronic component
23:10 < QuantumG> presumably you'd need sophisticated cell signal dispersal 
23:10 < kanzure> danielfalck: can you repeat the steps you used to convert .stl to .step for us in here?
23:10 < drazak> QuantumG: Nah
23:10 < drazak> QuantumG: you could do it like a beating heart, which is just Ca2+ signalling
23:10 < kanzure> randallagordon: it wouldn't give off light
23:11 < danielfalck> STL to SharkFX (commercial demo ACIS modeller)-> convert to faces -> export
23:11 < kanzure> thanks danielfalck
23:11 < QuantumG> to tell the cells in the circle pattern that won't be in the star pattern to move towards the ones that will be in the star pattern
23:11  * randallagordon didn't say he wanted it to light the room...there are much better materials for that...
23:11 < drazak> but I don't think you can do it floating on the top of water
23:12 < randallagordon> Just something to luminesce and look amazingly awesome
23:12 < QuantumG> dont most baterial colonies float?
23:12 < randallagordon> ...conversation starter, shall we say.
23:12 < QuantumG> bacterial even :)
23:12 < drazak> nah, they grow in suspension usually, so it'd be fairly dispersed
23:14 < QuantumG> well, I see the biobricks parts registry has nothing in it about cell adhesion
23:14 < genehackersolder> well to get a beating heart you'd have to get them to synchronise
23:15 < drazak> genehackersolder: that's Ca2+ syncronization
23:15 < drazak> but that won't work on water
23:15 < drazak> needs some sort of ecm support
23:15 < drazak> so that's nized
23:15 < drazak> er, nixed
23:16 < QuantumG> how about algar instead?
23:16 < genehackersolder> does it work like firefly synchronization except with chemicals instead of light?
23:16 < kanzure> algar? you mean agar?
23:17 < drazak> and no
23:17 < QuantumG> ya
23:17 < drazak> not on agar
23:17 < drazak> but it's a bad idea anyway
23:17 < drazak> I was thinking out loud
23:19 < QuantumG> truth is, if you completed that project I'd be asking you if you could do 3d shapes next :)
23:22 < drazak> heh
23:22 < drazak> that's a tough ass project
23:23 < QuantumG> well, the parts don't exist
23:24 < QuantumG> so it's most likely dozens of projects (being that just adding a part is a project)
23:25 < drazak> does the shape change have to be macro?
23:26 < QuantumG> well, if you can make a "bacteria muscle" that'd be interesting
23:26 < drazak> doubt it
23:26 < drazak> don't think you can
23:27 < drazak> not enough organization or specificity
23:27 < genehackersolder> well if you could make bacterial 'photopolymer' that'd be ineteresting
23:28 < QuantumG> what's that do?
23:29 < genehackersolder> it's what stereolithography machines use
23:29 < genehackersolder> it's very expensive
23:30 < QuantumG> Jump to: navigation, search
23:30 < QuantumG> A photopolymer is a polymer that cures, or becomes solid, when exposed to light, often in the ultraviolet spectrum. 
23:32 < kanzure> there are also photopolymers that cure in blue
23:34 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-50-79.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:35 < kanzure> "We are sad to report that Nobel Prize winner Edwin Krebs, for whom the
23:35 < kanzure> Krebs Cycle is named [*], passed away at the age of 91 of heart failure in Seattle, WA ["
23:38 < QuantumG> bacteria that can climb a light gradient.. presumably that's been done
23:40 < genehackersolder> nature didit
23:41 < QuantumG> anyone bothered to reproduce her work?
23:41 < QuantumG> how fast can they swim?
23:42 -!- Aliks [n=epicurea@76-14-163-117.wsac.wavecable.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:43 < QuantumG> 60 cell lengths/second
23:44 < QuantumG> I wonder if a (mostly) focused laser point could move that fast.. 
23:44 -!- MrClif [n=clif@c-67-189-77-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:45 < QuantumG> could you watch under a light microscope and lead bacteria around with it?
23:45 < genehackersolder> no idea
23:45 < genehackersolder> yeah
23:45 < genehackersolder> probably
23:46 < QuantumG> kinda sounds like something that I've seen before.... no idea where
23:46 < genehackersolder> there are phototactic bacteria
23:46 < genehackersolder> google bacterial phototaxis
23:46 < genehackersolder> any desoldering experts here?
23:47 < MrClif> I've done some desodering.
23:47 < genehackersolder> I need to desolder an expensive heat sensitive tiny part from an assembly
23:48 < MrClif> "desoder" and heat sensitive don't nessasarly go together. ;-)
23:48 < MrClif> Is it surface mount?
23:48 < genehackersolder> no
23:48 < genehackersolder> through hole
23:49 < MrClif> well for high pin count parts you can use a hot air gun.
23:49 < QuantumG> ahh, it was a nematode C. elegans I saw doing phototaxis
23:50 < MrClif> the slower way is an iron and either a soder sucker or some copper braid.
23:51 < MrClif> generally the better tools put less stress on your parts.
23:51 < genehackersolder> I tried a solder sucker
23:51 < MrClif> How many pins does it have?
23:51 < genehackersolder> 3
23:52 < MrClif> Should be pretty easy.
23:52 < genehackersolder> it's through 2 pcbs
23:52 < genehackersolder> that are really thin
23:52 < MrClif> you use the iron on the front side and the SS on the back and wiggle it till it comes free.
23:52 < genehackersolder> and about size of the component
23:53 < genehackersolder> I can't wiggle it
23:54 < MrClif> another thing to try is wiggle it till while its cooling and then get one pin free. do that for each pin and you might be able to pull it off.
23:54 < drazak> genehackersolder: what is the component?
23:54 < genehackersolder> a 405 nm 150 mw laser diode
23:57 < MrClif> You could also try copper braid.
23:58 < drazak> what kinda tip you got on the iron?