--- Day changed Mon Feb 08 2010
00:18 < kanzure> hello JayDugger 
00:18 < JayDugger> Hi, kanzure. 
00:19 < JayDugger> At work, so just lurkiing.
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08:25 < JayDugger1> Camp ShopBot comes to Austin, TX on Feb 27-28. Get all the information here. It's free and anyone can attend: http://ow.ly/151mk
08:25 < JayDugger1> Hmm...perhaps a good weekend trip?
08:26 < kanzure> who is wayne locke?
08:27 < JayDugger1> I don't know him, but he has a "shop in southwest Austin off Hwy 290."
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09:36 < kanzure> "world peace through world domination" http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/works/worlddomination.htm
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10:10 < parolang> Anyone have any plans for the energy crisis?
10:10 < parolang> New article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/07/branson-warns-peak-oil-close
10:11 < Utopiah> isn't there a peak oil "warning" every 2 weeks since 20 years? 
10:13 < parolang> Utopiah: It's the same warning.
10:13 < parolang> The day grows closer.
10:14 < Utopiah> while I agree with the idea of peak oil I hardly why Branson should get any credibility on the matter
10:14 < parolang> This isn't a warning by people pushing the idea, this is businesses and governments changing their mind about it.
10:14 < parolang> Yeah, I don't know who Branson is, but I didn't know his credibility is tarnished.
10:15 < parolang> Here's an article from late last year: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/09/peak-oil-international-energy-agency
10:15 < Utopiah> Id tend to read http://www.peakoil.net/ instead but once again, who is providing the numbers? how many times did estimate were totally off? etc...
10:16 < parolang> Basically, a whistleblower is saying that the IEA has been smudging the numbers of oil estimates to prevent the stocks from fluctuating.
10:16 < parolang> Utopiah: That's because the issue is political, not just technical or scientific.
10:17 < parolang> Knowledge harms certain interests, so it becomes forbidden.
10:18 < parolang> But...I was wondering what H+ people thought about the peak oil scenario, whether they know what to do about it.
10:19 < Utopiah> energy resiliance with distributed sources (solar/wind) to sustain until fusion can be used?
10:19 < parolang> Or the general problem of an energy crisis.
10:19 < Utopiah> I gathered few links on the topic of energy if you want to have a quick look http://fabien.benetou.fr/Content/Energy
10:20 < parolang> sure will
10:21 < parolang> I'm afraid that solutions that require drastic technological innovations aren't going to be ready in time, or perhaps have some unforseen problems that don't make them usable.
10:21 < parolang> Like fusion...
10:22 < Utopiah> >2050
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10:22 < parolang> Well...they are talking about peak oil in five years.
10:22 < Utopiah> as I said earlier "they" are talking about peak oil in five years for 20 years
10:23 < parolang> Utopiah: It used to be "in 20 years", then in a decade, now five years.
10:23 < parolang> Utopiah: The estimates are ranging, of course, but that's in the nature of forecasting.
10:24 < Utopiah> nuclear fission isn't ideal either, resources are also limited there, hopefuly we'll just build less useless crap :-#
10:24 < parolang> Honestly, the one thing I wish for is more nuclear fission.
10:25 < Utopiah> if you speak french and have a local proxy :
10:25 < parolang> I think avoiding nuclear power for all of this time will be one of our greatest regrets.
10:25 < parolang> Sorry...only speak English...am American
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10:26 < Utopiah> few days old show on fission and geopolitics http://www.arte.tv/fr/Comprendre-le-monde/le-dessous-des-cartes/392,CmC=396,view=maps.html
10:26 < parolang> I need to spend a few days to study this topic in depth...
10:27 < Utopiah> but did you check the new ITER? or news on last generation centrals?
10:27 < Utopiah> I mean they have a lot of problems too so not a "miracle" solution 
10:28 < parolang> Is ITER the one they are about to build or the one that they have already built?
10:29 < parolang> Okay...that the one they are planning on building.
10:29 < Utopiah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Pressurized_Reactor#Progress_2
10:29 < parolang> I love to hear about that kind of practical research, but it's taking too long, won't be ready in time.
10:32 < Utopiah> well, societal collapsed happened before, let's see how we'll handle it :)
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10:33 < parolang> Utopiah: We'll see whether you and I are among the lucky ones to survive it.
10:33  * Utopiah doesn't believe in luck
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10:35 < parolang> Well...luck would be the manifest of fortunes that I have no knowledge of.
10:36 < parolang> But, knowledge is power, as always, which is why I need to study the problem in depth to determine to what degree of certainty is the energy crisis a possibility, and understand it's causes.
10:36 < Utopiah> my (crappy) attempt to counter "luck" in such a situation : http://fabien.benetou.fr/Content/Vademecum
10:37 < parolang> For instance, it's "bad luck" what happened to the Haitians, but perhaps with the right science and technology, it could have been predicted.
10:38 < parolang> Utopiah: hmm
10:39 < parolang> Utopiah: Pretty much learning the ways of earlier modes of civilization.
10:40 < parolang> This all depends on how far the energy crisis will set us back.
10:40 < parolang> Things will definitely become more difficult, but to what degree, and how will our advanced level of technology makes things easier, or make things more difficult?
10:40 < Utopiah> no I dont think you can say it will just set us back in time
10:41 < Utopiah> I mean that we should be able to levarage more recent knowledge and technology (even with an energy crisis) but also some past opportunities (thus will lower investment cost) would have disappeared
10:41 < parolang> Well, it seems that most of our progress has been on the back of an overwhelming supply of cheap energy.
10:42 < Utopiah> sure
10:43 < parolang> Then, without that supply of cheap energy, we would necessarily regress quite a bit.
10:43 < parolang> But also consider the population that is supported by this supply of cheap energy.
10:44 < parolang> If this supply is diminished, then the population would also become diminished.
10:44 < Utopiah> and economy of scale
10:45 < parolang> In many ways we've become more efficient with energy, however.  But I don't know if this increase in efficiency has exceeded the increase in population, which is exponential in nature.
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15:38 < kanzure> nice lawyer
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15:41 < kanzure> hey QuantumG 
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15:43 < QuantumG> hey
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16:12 < ybit> you austinites: www.austinsystema.com/ 
16:14 < kanzure> ?
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17:57 < kanzure> "My little brother just got a Nokia N900 and brought it over to show off. My impression: this just might be the first phone I've ever seen which doesn't suck. apt-get install whateverthefuckyouwant totally embarrasses everybody's "app store" and on top of that it's a fully working product."
18:06 < kanzure> bruce perens is a nazi! :p http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1541736&cid=31064598 (i'm totally kidding)
18:47 < nsh> man, i thought your last two comments were related in some way
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18:56  * nsh frowns
19:00 < nsh> i would quite like an n900
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19:30 < kanzure> "if we strung all of the DNA in our body end to end, it would go back and forth between here and the sun 70 times"
19:30 < kanzure> somehow i suspect the heat of the star would not allow that
19:50 < kanzure> some of these prices are insane: http://www.tritechresearch.com/pricelist.html
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20:32 < kanzure> "lol wut?" http://designfiles.org/lab/fenn/skdb_presentation/tornado_and_its_documentation.gif
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21:15 < nsh> yeah, what is that anyway, like at the mechanical limit to shearing of the molecule? or are they just pulling figures out of their arse
21:16 < kanzure> huh?
21:16 < kanzure> oh, for the dna
21:16 < nsh> yeah
21:16 < kanzure> i think they meant multiple dna molecules
21:16 < nsh> elementary particles have vanishing radii
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21:17 < nsh> it only really makes some intuitive sense if you could actually bond all the molecules together, end to end, and stretch them mechanically that far
21:17 < nsh> and then you'd have to not overstretch such as to break the molecule
21:17 < nsh> and it starts to become a pointless measure that exists only to inspire awe
21:17 < nsh> which is fine
21:17 < kanzure> yeah, i imagine you'd have to have a lot of length left over so as to not build up tension
21:18 < nsh> you might end up with some drastic vibrational modes too
21:18 < nsh> oh, i should read some weird articles on DNA solitons and stuff
21:18 < nsh> they were always fun
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21:46 < kanzure> buildapedia?
21:47 < kanzure> .org is available
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22:25 < ybit> fabhow.com?
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22:58 < JayDugger> kanzure, I'll next review the business model document on Sunday.
22:59 < JayDugger> What should I particularly work on then? 
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23:12 < kanzure> JayDugger: that will probably depend on which part i edit. suresh left some comments that i'll be expanding on