--- Day changed Tue Mar 16 2010 00:02 < kanzure> "and after every day he would write things down about their conversation on the back of the business card as well as write details about the person, such as what color their hair was and whether or not they had glasses" 00:02 < kanzure> "By the time he was governor of Arkansas he had over 12,000 cards like this. Before meeting with people he would always research this library and see if he had any personal details about this person." 00:02 < kanzure> glasses? 00:02 < kanzure> maybe it's a part of the master plan 00:04 < katsmeow> i wonder what the average search time was to look up "a someone with black hair about 5-10" ,, because putting them on hold 2hrs while looking thru the rolodex was prolly impolite 00:05 < kanzure> shhh! i'm searching >:o 00:08 < kanzure> there's a bill clinton joke in there somewhere about looking up tramps or something 00:12 < kanzure> heh, i like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/05/AR2009080504021.html 00:30 < kanzure> http://biopunk.hu/2010/03/15/on-mendeley-2/ 00:34 < katsmeow> ya know, i thought *i* ranged far and wide online till i came in here 00:34 < katsmeow> if ifollowed allyourlinks, i couldn't irc at all! 00:52 < kanzure> fenn: why are you playing with xp_prg 00:55 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:01 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-70-165-196-83.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:02 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22 < fenn> kanzure: he's slightly less annoying in person 01:22 < fenn> and besides, it's a cool project 01:23 < katsmeow> xp_prg has a project? 01:24 < fenn> "What? It doesn't send an email telling you it has caught a mouse?" 01:29 < fenn> what is "oshbm" and should i care? 01:39 < fenn> katsmeow: he's building a "spikerbox" which is basically an amplifier with a speaker, as seen on backyardbrains.com 01:39 < fenn> katsmeow: you can see more here if you care: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvFJev6yOM 01:41 < katsmeow> i have no audio,, is xp the one in the pink top? 01:42 < katsmeow> i see no speaker or amplifier 01:42 < katsmeow> oh, there it is,, and 2 inch speaker ini a 3x3x6 inch aluminum box 01:43 < fenn> no, he's not in that video at all 01:43 < katsmeow> why is that guy cuttingth elegs off a frozen roach? 01:44 < fenn> SCIENCE! 01:44 < katsmeow> to do what? 01:44 < fenn> to see what happens when you stick amplifier leads into it and poke it with a stick 01:45 < katsmeow> it makes static sounds 01:45 < katsmeow> rapidfire pops 01:45 < fenn> you can record the signal on a computer and do more analysis 01:46 < katsmeow> if you say so 01:46 < fenn> well, i did 01:46 < katsmeow> "things we leaned about neural firing in frozen roach legs" ? 01:47 < fenn> this is the point where if i were katsmeow i would bitch about how nobody understands me and i'm just doing it all wrong and should just go drown myself in the ocean 01:47 < fenn> but i'm not, so if you really want to understand what it's all about, please continue 01:48 < katsmeow> me continue? my question remains unanswered 01:48 < fenn> what was the question? 01:48 < katsmeow> more indepth to [01:44] why is that guy cuttingth elegs off a frozen roach? 01:49 < fenn> to record pulses from its disembodied nervous system and show people that it's possible with $20 of components 01:50 < fenn> also there is some speculation about cyborg roach exo-exoskeletons if you watch the other video 01:50 < fenn> but the real purpose is he's starting a business selling science kits 01:50 < katsmeow> but kids in science classes in the 1970's did that to frogs, docs call it "nerve conduction tests", and i can tell you it's bloody painfull 01:51 < fenn> apparently times have changed, we never ever did anything even remotely as cool as this when i was in school 01:51 < katsmeow> oh 01:51 < katsmeow> i refused to do the frog bit, i took an F instead 01:51 < fenn> tim says he never heard nerve impulses until halfway through grad school 01:51 < fenn> (in neuroscience) 01:51 < fenn> (other tim, not xp_prg) 01:52 < fenn> katsmeow: does the nerve conduction test make the leg twitch? 01:53 < katsmeow> yeas 01:53 < fenn> ok i think that is the opposite of what this does 01:53 < katsmeow> they send an impulse in, kill it, and listen for the echo 01:54 < fenn> why would there be an echo? 01:54 < katsmeow> the point is often to diagnose the route to the spine and back 01:54 < fenn> ug, they're doing this to a live frog? 01:54 < katsmeow> no, they did it to me and other humans 01:54 < fenn> holy crap 01:55 < fenn> i forgot you had nerve problems 01:55 < katsmeow> you don't understand me, i'm going to bitcha nd go sail waya 01:55 < katsmeow> :-P 01:56 < fenn> just hold still while we chop those useless legs off and attach a gleaming translucent purple exoskeleton 01:57 < katsmeow> they are now more painful than useless, but in a sense if it hurts too much to use, then they are useless 01:59 < fenn> <3 ebook torrents 02:01 < fenn> "generation Y" - i didn't even know we had a name 02:01 < fenn> generation "why me" is more like it 02:05 < katsmeow> i should goto bed 02:08 < fenn> kanzure: i'd like you to provide a service for me 02:08 < fenn> kanzure: make a big linkdump of messages on OM and diybio that are actually worth reading, and then i can delete the other 10k 02:09 < fenn> and then i wouldnt feel bad about having 10k unread messages in my inbox 02:10 < fenn> like rec.humor.funny 02:11 < fenn> hm of course then i run into the problem that 50% of the spam is from this "bryan bishop" guy 02:11 < fenn> d'eaux 02:13 < fenn> > Perhaps a simple monthly email thread calling for an exposition on 02:13 < fenn> > everyone's latest hacks would be sufficient, 02:16 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-237-208-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nchaimov] 02:17 -!- nchaimov [~cowtown@c-71-237-208-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:25 -!- randallagordon_ [~randallag@c-67-189-58-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25 -!- randallagordon [~randallag@c-67-189-58-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:32 < Utopiah> http://www.inter-chem.biz/details/63 03:33 -!- nsh [sbp@59.176.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:33 -!- nsh [sbp@59.176.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:49 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:53 -!- bkero [~freenode@69.163.39.14] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:54 -!- bkero [~freenode@69.163.39.14] has quit [Changing host] 03:54 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:01 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:01 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:01 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:02 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:02 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:03 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:03 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:04 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:04 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:06 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:06 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:07 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 04:07 < Utopiah> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/15/3d-printing-on-a-much-larger-scale/ 04:08 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:08 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:08 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:08 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:10 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:11 < Utopiah> http://www.d-shape.com/ 04:17 < Utopiah> totally sounds like http://rockprinter.com/ 04:37 < Utopiah> kanzure: http://fora.tv/2010/02/18/Robin_Dunbar_How_Many_Friends_Does_One_Person_Need 05:08 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-70-165-196-83.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:10 < Utopiah> http://craft.usc.edu/ 08:27 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:28 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:29 -!- strages [~strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:30 -!- strages [~strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:41 < kanzure> Utopiah: i counter your dunbar number with http://groups.google.com/group/diytranshumanist/browse_frm/thread/da6ee0594580dc1f# 08:43 < Utopiah> I remembered that, that's why I posted the short talk 08:47 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:48 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@209-6-54-14.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:52 -!- hundred-ideas_ [~100ideas@209-6-54-14.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:52 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@209-6-54-14.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52 -!- hundred-ideas_ is now known as hundred-ideas 09:24 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:35 -!- klafka [~klafka@64.241.37.140] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:38 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@209-6-54-14.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas] 09:52 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:57 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-70-165-196-83.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Quit: shepazu] 10:19 -!- klafka [~klafka@64.241.37.140] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:30 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-3.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:33 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:46 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-3.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:53 -!- klafka [~klafka@129.21.71.219] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:56 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@140.247.248.192] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:59 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:58 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Quit: shepazu] 12:01 -!- strages [~strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:18 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:22 < kanzure> http://www.betterhumans.com/blogs/alexandra_carmichael/archive/2008/09/15/Open-Source-Health-Research-Plan-.aspx 12:26 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:28 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:31 -!- shepazutoo [~schepers@wsip-98-173-111-7.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:35 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:20 < kanzure> i don't remember "honey, i shrunk the audience" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113325/ 13:20 -!- romulox [~a443be40@gateway/web/freenode/x-jqzlujquddigevko] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:21 < kanzure> hello romulox 13:32 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:36 < kanzure> 13:20 < hundred-ideas> anyway, a bunch of transhumanist peeps are also over in #hplusroadmap 13:36 < kanzure> 13:21 < hundred-ideas> beware, is a big un-closed tag over there 13:36 < kanzure> um 13:36 < kanzure> [citation needed] 13:37 -!- romulox [~a443be40@gateway/web/freenode/x-jqzlujquddigevko] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37 < hundred-ideas> you don't consider yourself or the general tone of this channel ideological? 13:38 < kanzure> it's easy to find fault when you go looking for it, mac 13:39 < fenn> i think it's good that channels have topics 13:40 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43 < fenn> blog is a four letter word 13:46 < fenn> i dont understand why this says nothing about eye tracking http://www.baychi.org/calendar/20100316/ presumably that's the topic of the event 14:00 < hundred-ideas> Isn't adobe the 2nd largest software company in the USA? 14:00 < hundred-ideas> "New Business Research Funnel"... bleh 14:12 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_largest_software_companies 14:12 < fenn> microsoft word is its own company? 14:15 < fenn> god microsoft is pathetic. i just spent ten minutes searching for the "change password" button in "windows live msn passport hotmail" (nowhere in the help wizard) only to have it puke and lock me out of my account once i actually found it 14:15 < fenn> and then give me a "windows live is experiencing technical difficulties" when i tried "forgot my password" 14:27 < fenn> hmm this wasn't quite what i intended 14:27 < fenn> "This Week's Menlo Park Calendar: 1,097 Meetups Nearby (178kB)" 14:27 -!- shepazutoo [~schepers@wsip-98-173-111-7.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Quit: shepazutoo] 14:37 < kanzure> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/BCFCFLY 14:37 < kanzure> alternative to tito's data lock-in 14:38 < fenn> can't you just ask him to release the data? 14:38 < fenn> i havent been reading diybio 14:40 < kanzure> he said no 14:40 < kanzure> he also said that it has "personally identifying information" on it 14:41 < kanzure> (on the other one) and that this is why he wouldn't release the data 14:46 < hundred-ideas> I thought that was pretty flaky 14:47 < kanzure> yeah i don't trust tito 14:48 -!- rektide [rektide@voodoowarez.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:48 < kanzure> hey rektide 14:48 < rektide> hello kanzure, been a long time 14:48 -!- KingJacob [~KingJacob@c-98-201-172-235.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:48 < kanzure> KingJacob: did you show mac the designs yet? 14:50 < KingJacob> I think he's seen my poor sketches 14:50 < kanzure> KingJacob: would you mind if i publish a test on http://fivesecondtest.com/ for the design? 14:51 < kanzure> opensciencefund.org memory test: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/HqIhlOwD 14:51 < kanzure> something like that 14:52 < kanzure> opensciencefund.org click test: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/KnY43u3k 14:52 < kanzure> you can send around these links and get more feedback on the design 14:52 < kanzure> the click test will give you a heat map of where people click 14:53 < KingJacob> I'm actually waiting on another designers treatment 14:53 < kanzure> treatment? 14:53 < KingJacob> so we'll have to decide between the two 14:54 < KingJacob> A treatment is a quick draft, to show what you can do, 14:54 < kanzure> i fell in love with fivesecondtest.com as a way to gather rapid feedback on designs 14:55 < KingJacob> yeah, doing analytics like that'll be important 15:00 < hundred-ideas> So what's your vision once the site is done? Where does inventory come from and where do profits go? 15:03 < kanzure> http://threader.ecs.soton.ac.uk/lists/boaiforum/2005.html NPG details 2011 open access pricing policy 15:07 < KingJacob> First the easy question, 15:08 < KingJacob> profits would be used to fund research, educate and improve projects 15:10 < KingJacob> Inventory would come from the source that is most affordable and efficient 15:10 < hundred-ideas> cool 15:11 < kanzure> ugh "I was confused for a moment, I thought this was regarding the Hacker Space in Austin... hence hackerspace in the subject line. So there are many hackerspace groups all around the country?" 15:13 < KingJacob> lol, who sent you that? 15:14 < kanzure> someone from the austin robot group named "john" 15:15 < KingJacob> Hopefully he was pleasantly surprised to find out there are 100s of hackerspaces 15:16 < kanzure> i linked him over to http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces 15:19 < kanzure> KingJacob: joseph says that he will add something to the diybio FAQ by the end of the week about his progress on helping organize an open science conference 15:25 < KingJacob> thanks. 15:28 < hundred-ideas> has anybody met greg or tim from http://www.backyardbrains.com/? 15:28 < fenn> yeah 15:29 < fenn> greg is pretty quiet 15:30 < fenn> anything in particular? 15:32 < hundred-ideas> SpikerBox, LavaAmp, Dremelfuge, Pearl Gel Box are all on my list of more-or-less real biotech kits, but I don't know any of the SpikerBox guys 15:32 < hundred-ideas> Am I forgetting any? 15:35 < kanzure> scitoys probably has something (simon quellen field) 15:35 < hundred-ideas> hmmm 15:35 < kanzure> hm those aren't really open source 15:35 < kanzure> the ones you listed, i mean 15:35 * kanzure hasn't checked out spikerbox though 15:35 < hundred-ideas> That's true. 15:36 < fenn> how about simon field's spectroscope? 15:36 < hundred-ideas> [recalling last conversation about challenges of defining open source hardware] 15:36 < kanzure> um, it is *not* challenging to figure out that lava amp is not open source 15:36 < hundred-ideas> that's *definitely* not open source. Simon has said he will not release the source code 15:37 < hundred-ideas> well anyway, let's pursue a parallel enumeration of biotech kits 15:37 < kanzure> then why not just list the catalog from carolina, merk, sigma-aldrich, etc. 15:37 < hundred-ideas> there is also the NEB biobrick assembly kit, which is essentially 6 enzymes 15:37 < fenn> if the use of an enzyme is patented, is it still "open source"? 15:39 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: have you read the TAPR license, or the creative commons license, or anything like that? 15:39 < hundred-ideas> I have read the cc license 15:39 < kanzure> ok 15:39 < kanzure> um why am i listing so few licenses? fenn, halp? 15:40 < hundred-ideas> yeah, don't forget the WTFPL 15:40 < Utopiah> :) 15:40 < kanzure> isn't that just the BSD? 15:40 < fenn> kanzure: all of the hardware licenses suck 15:40 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:40 < kanzure> yes but instead of saying "oh well, let's just claim that pearlbiotech is open source", how about we figure out why they suck 15:40 < fenn> there was that GOSH thing with trademarks yesterday 15:41 < kanzure> honestly i thought there was more than three 15:41 < hundred-ideas> Did Stallman write anything before emacs? like, gcc? 15:42 < fenn> pff it's simple; does it meet the four freedoms? does it provide design files in the preferred format for modification if they exist? 15:42 < kanzure> ohanda, TAPR, cc (which isn't really for hardware but people use it for hardware anyway), gfdl (documentation), and then the software brothers like GPL and BSD 15:42 < kanzure> fenn: i think that OSI compatibility is definitely a requirement 15:42 < fenn> hundred-ideas: he wrote a lot of software at MIT 15:42 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: what about the OSI, have you read the "open source definition" doc? 15:43 < fenn> * Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose. 15:43 < fenn> * Freedom 1: The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish. 15:43 < fenn> * Freedom 2: The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. 15:43 < fenn> * Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits. 15:43 < fenn> no need to read lengthy pontifications from pedantic pundits 15:44 < hundred-ideas> well, I wonder if this discussion is soft of cart-before-horse. If you go back and look at the history of the GNU project, did stallman start with a license or free software 15:44 < kanzure> opencores.org uses the LGPL O_o (which is good but odd) 15:44 < hundred-ideas> My point is this: what exactly is the need for the license RIGHT NOW. 15:44 < fenn> hundred-ideas: he started just writing code, and then the world decided to restrict access to software 15:44 < fenn> it was common courtesy to give source code to any and all who asked 15:45 < hundred-ideas> why don't we just focus on making a bunch of great hardware and wetware, spending no more than 12 hours in the first year considering how we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with licenses (i.e. enabling others to patent / appropriate the work) 15:45 < fenn> just release your filed under ANY license, i dont care which 15:46 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: the problem is that people don't have that "courtesy" any more 15:46 < kanzure> they don't release the files at all 15:46 < kanzure> and then they have the balls to call it "open source" 15:46 < fenn> i gotta catch a train, ciao 15:46 < hundred-ideas> Ok. done. there. we'll do what fenn just said. let's just promote that and stop making noise and wasting attention w/r/t/ untested hardware legal agreements 15:47 < kanzure> how about this instead, 15:47 < kanzure> a community check list for determining whether or not the open source definitions are met 15:47 < kanzure> "is this person's claim legit? or are they bullshitting us" sort of thing 15:48 < hundred-ideas> I mean, someone comes over here and says "I want to provide my gadget as 'open source'" and then they end up totally confused and depressed. Sure. A preflight checklist would be perfect. And a little badge for websites / hardware. 15:48 < kanzure> lots of people waste lots of time following rabbits down the rabbit holes 15:49 < parolang> You can email the fsf or gnu people and ask them about free licensing for hardware. They have a lot of experience with this sort of thing and, even more importantly, lawyers who know what they are talking about :) 15:50 < kanzure> parolang: have you done that? 15:50 < parolang> no 15:50 < hundred-ideas> I nominate kanzure to do that. unless parolang has. 15:50 < kanzure> because each time i do that- and each time other people i know do that- they get back emails saying "this is not our focus" 15:50 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: please search the archives for the deets 15:50 < kanzure> yesterday i saw the GOSH! people got a negatory response too 15:50 < parolang> kanzure: Didn't realize it was such a dead end. 15:50 < jrayhawk> I don't know that the FSF has ever made a both legal and sensible license. 15:50 < kanzure> :( 15:51 < kanzure> coming from jrayhawk, that burns 15:51 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: http://piksel.no/pipermail/gosh/2010-March/000326.html 15:51 < kanzure> that response was for the trademark-in-particular idea though 15:51 < jrayhawk> GPLv2 has a lot of ambiguity, GPLv3 is more contract than license, and GFDL is just a disaster. 15:51 < kanzure> let me see if i can dig up anything else 15:52 < parolang> I'll ask on #sflc see if anyone answers. 15:52 < kanzure> oh yay 15:52 < kanzure> fenn started a thread in 2008 about this 15:52 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/814b2a47a602cac0/e7235e013e117917?lnk=gst&q=free+software+foundation+license#e7235e013e117917 15:52 < kanzure> oops, nevermind 15:52 < hundred-ideas> can we just use the ohanda logo, the 4 OSI principles, and circle back in a year and see what would be more appropriate? 15:53 < kanzure> in what sense? like the "community checklist process"? 15:53 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what are your opinions on that idea? having projects brought up and vetted if they seem to be swaying from OSI-like principles? "oh lookie, these people are lying fucks" 15:54 < jrayhawk> The DSFG is less poorly thought out, but it depends on your goals. 15:54 < kanzure> the problem with the community vetting process is that it could still come back to bite you in the ass 15:55 < jrayhawk> The OSI, by the way, basically exists to rubber-stamp bad Sun decisions. 15:55 < kanzure> like if you use a hardware design, and then later you start selling kits 15:55 < kanzure> and then the original guy who made the first design who was "vetted" decides to start suing everyone for all they're worth 15:55 < hundred-ideas> kanzure: that's theoretical. I think we are getting tripped up in theory. let's act. 15:55 < kanzure> that's not theoretical, sadly 15:56 < hundred-ideas> please point to someone you know trying to sell biotech kits who was sued 15:56 < kanzure> does it have to be biotech? 15:56 < hundred-ideas> (tito doesn't count). 15:56 < jrayhawk> Well, what you should be vetting is the license things are released under, but you guys have even more of a patent problem than the software world does. 15:56 < parolang> Would you mind if I invited someone from #sflc here? (software freedom law center, softwarefreedom.org) 15:56 < kanzure> parolang: i would encourage it :) 15:57 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: why do you think kits are different from software? 15:57 < kanzure> there are many, many examples of people getting sued around GPL'd code 15:57 < hundred-ideas> I have to to a meeting shortly, but let me reiterate 15:57 < kanzure> most recently, bruce perens had to step up to the plate to help a poor guy out 15:57 < jrayhawk> Where was this? 15:58 < jrayhawk> I wasn't aware Bruce Perens had done anything beside troll peole for the past ten years. 15:58 < kanzure> well it wasn't bruce perens who did the lawyering, but 15:58 < jrayhawk> people 15:58 < kanzure> grr where did this link go 15:58 -!- strages [~strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:58 < kanzure> http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf 15:58 < kanzure> jacobsen v. katzer/kamind 15:59 -!- aaronw [~aaronw@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:59 < kanzure> http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/node/5837 15:59 < parolang> aaronw is the guy fro #sflc...he says he can't provide legal advice, but can probably point you in the right direction :) 15:59 < parolang> Welcome aaronw and thanks for joining :) 16:00 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Quit: shepazu] 16:00 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: i'm not convinced that foresight is unwarranted 16:00 < aaronw> No problem, parolang. So what the hell are you up to here at #hplusroadmap? 16:00 < jrayhawk> it was kinda neat to see the artistic license hold up; it was one of the weakest licenses the OSI ever approved 16:02 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: more discussion here: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/d24620087310febe/038310777a4516a7?lnk=gst&q=TAPR#038310777a4516a7 16:02 < parolang> aaronw: I think they want to apply free software principles to hardware. They want to ensure the share and share-alike principle to hardware designs which can be distributed over the internet. 16:02 < hundred-ideas> I think we are wasting a disproportionate amount of time trying to figure out a license or agreement or pool or other legal vehicle for building a hardware commons. I recommend we consider the situation briefly today, work hard for a year, and reassess to see what worked and what didn't, who got sued or taken advantage of, etc. I don't disagree that there may be prior case law suggesting abuse in the absence of legal protection, but I don't 16:02 < hundred-ideas> having a concrete answer today is required before engaging in "open" hardware innovation & distribution. 16:03 < jrayhawk> A ounce of legal prevention is worth three years of your life being wasted in a courtroom. 16:03 < jrayhawk> It's really best to get it sorted out beforehand :) 16:03 < kanzure> it's okay, it's probably my ass that is going to be on the line, not hundred-ideas' 16:04 < hundred-ideas> ouch 16:04 < jrayhawk> Okay, threeyears of Bryan's life. 16:04 < jrayhawk> Which means go crazy, guys! 16:04 < kanzure> yippee! 16:04 < kanzure> oh wait 16:04 < kanzure> do i get conjugal visits? 16:04 < parolang> aaronw: One of the projects that members of this channel have been working on is skdb which has been described briefly as "apt-get for hardware" using automated machining tools or projects such as 3d printers (e.g., reprap) to fabricate real objects.. 16:05 < kanzure> aaronw: brief article overview: http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web 16:05 < hundred-ideas> gah. build shit, be successful, gain *real* experience, feedback onto legal practices, iterate. 16:05 < kanzure> but if you want a super-long introduction plus videos: http://gnusha.org/ 16:05 < kanzure> i don't think you're listening 16:05 < hundred-ideas> If I have a kit tomorrow, or Romie does, or Jacob does, or Tito does, or Cathal does... what are we supposed to do? You guys can't give us an effing answer. 16:06 < kanzure> what?? 16:06 < kanzure> if you have it tomorrow, where did all your open source development come from? 16:06 < kanzure> i think i just failed to understand your question 16:08 < aaronw> parolang, I see. Well, the short answer is that there's no ready-made answer for hardware. You can license design files under FOSS copyright licenses, but an "open source hardware license" doesn't make as much sense for a few reasons. 16:08 < jrayhawk> Anyway, let me know if you happen to run across this "Bruce Perens actually did something useful" incident you claim occured. I have a lot of interest in tracking free software trolls. 16:08 < aaronw> The first being that hardware isn't automatically subject to an exclusive right, e.g. copyright. 16:09 < hundred-ideas> Ok, so here's a hypothetical for you: I am building a multiaxis microscope slide platform actuated by servos (the most closed component) and an arduino, designed to be cut on a lasercutter out of acrylic. The ardunio / processing source code is available via github under an appropriate OS license (you recommend which?) and I can provide the SVG files for the acrylic in any format you want. What precisely would you like me to do, with the on 16:09 < hundred-ideas> constraint that it be doable within a timeframe deemed reasonable by my peers? 16:10 < kanzure> publish and license a bill of materials, for one 16:10 < kanzure> to go along with the project i mean 16:10 < parolang> aaronw: But the design files are? Because that's how the hardware will be duplicated. 16:11 < parolang> As far as hardware creating hardware...is there any reason why an exclusive right here would be desirable? 16:11 < kanzure> jrayhawk: are there gpl'd projects that have mixed licensed content? like cc licensed art 16:12 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: from a legal standpoint, along with those files, a description of licenses for distribution and so on; 16:13 < aaronw> parolang, at least some design files are probably subject to copyright, yes. 16:13 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: from an skdb stand point, the BOM would be mandatory 16:13 < aaronw> subject to all of copyright's usual exceptions and disclaimers. 16:14 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: so, i think that solves the data questions? but still open are other issues like, what happens if i start building and selling kits of those multi-axis microscope slide platforms (which is something that i think we should allow for) 16:15 < kanzure> ooh 16:15 < aaronw> kanzure, have you talked to the makerbot guys about that? 16:15 < aaronw> they've dealt with that issue, i believe. 16:15 < kanzure> no, they don't reply to my emails 16:15 < kanzure> their content is CC-licensed IIRC 16:15 < kanzure> but i haven't heard of a case of someone selling makerbot industry gear? 16:16 < kanzure> *someone else 16:16 < kanzure> how do co-ops that physically produce stuff work? 16:16 < kanzure> does any member get to say "this is being produced on behalf of the co-op" 16:17 < kanzure> because then you could just let anyone become a member of the co-op for $0 16:18 < aaronw> kanzure, Makerbot has dealt with at least one user that was building makerbot designs and selling them to end users 16:18 < hundred-ideas> I have to go to my meeting, but I am not satisfied I know what to do. You just gave me vague instructions. I was asking for specific instructions, like "publish the svg files of the laser cut parts with a CC-BY license... " etc 16:18 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@140.247.248.192] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas] 16:18 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: ok. i agree that specific answers are needed 16:18 < aaronw> because the copyright licenses presumably don't apply to the built hardware, they couldn't stop the guy from doing it with their copyrights 16:19 < kanzure> aaronw: did they not like it? 16:19 < kanzure> i mean, i though tthis was the whole point- others can pick it up and build it 16:19 < kanzure> and potentially sell it 16:19 < aaronw> well, the issue was that users who bought from him were calling them for support 16:19 < kanzure> hahah 16:19 < aaronw> they didn't want to prevent the practice 16:19 < aaronw> but there was confusion 16:19 < parolang> heh 16:19 < aaronw> where is where trademarks come in 16:19 < kanzure> that's a funny unforseen incident 16:19 < aaronw> i think they just asked the guy not to use the name makerbot 16:19 < kanzure> yeah, i would think that the makerbot brand would be protected or something 16:19 < kanzure> right 16:20 < parolang> Trademarks would need to be respected in skdb :/ 16:21 < kanzure> that's fine, imho 16:21 < kanzure> but i hope we can say "this is the same design as the Makerbot(tm) reprap" (or, really, the reprap on which it is based) 16:21 < kanzure> cupcakecnc 16:21 < aaronw> kanzure, truthful statements like that are generally fine 16:22 < aaronw> i.e. don't infringe trademark 16:22 < aaronw> Whereas "This is a Makerbot" could confuse someone into thinking they built it 16:23 < parolang> aaronw: Is there a clear distinction as to how much can be trademarked? For instance, a brand name written on the product can be trademarked...but to what extent can you trademark a design? 16:23 < katsmeow-afk> "now joining #################hplusroadmap , based on #hplusroadmap" 16:24 < aaronw> The line is unfortunately not very clear, parolang 16:24 < aaronw> But if a design element is functional, it's less likely to be subject to trademark. 16:25 < kanzure> so, i think that there are two views that hundred-ideas wanted us to put forward 16:25 < parolang> aaronw: What about if the design element is aesthetic? 16:25 < kanzure> (1) how a project maintainer can license his design content for distribution, trademark his brand and not be totally screwed over 16:25 < kanzure> (2) how content consumers, skdb users, and other people who did *not* originate the designs can use the OSI four freedoms, sell and redistribute the kits 16:25 < kanzure> i think that #1 is fairly well settled, but #2 imho needs some convincing 16:26 < aaronw> parolang, then in some cases it might be possible to claim trademark 16:26 < kanzure> aaronw: is there anything stopping reprap.org from, say, patenting the cupcakecnc designs, and then suing makerbot? 16:26 < kanzure> it seems that it could be possible, but of course i get the feeling that they wouldn't ;) 16:27 < aaronw> kanzure, $10k to $20k, for one thing 16:27 < aaronw> and possibly various estoppel issues 16:27 < kanzure> estoppel? 16:28 < aaronw> If you know someone believes you've given him permission to do something, and you let him go on doing it, you might be prevented from stopping it. 16:28 < aaronw> But I'm not a patent lawyer, so I can't dive much deeper on these issues. 16:29 < kanzure> hold on, i'm untangling that sentence 16:29 < kanzure> it's a hairy beast 16:29 * fenn reads the backlog 16:29 < kanzure> aaronw: ah, i see. that's a cool one 16:29 < aaronw> If 1) someone else is infringing your right, and 2) believes in good faith they have a license from you, and 3) you know they believe that, and 4) you don't stop them in some reasonable amount of time, then 5) they might be allowed to continue. 16:30 < fenn> kanzure: reprap can't patent their stuff because it's been published 16:30 < kanzure> and #4 would be stopping them via i.e. patent law whereas at first everything was under, say, copyright law 16:30 < kanzure> fenn: true, but the patent office is full of dicks 16:30 < fenn> now, makerbot could invent some new reprap-based idea and patent it 16:30 < kanzure> hm 16:31 < fenn> but that's not what you're talking about, so pay no attentio to me 16:31 < kanzure> well, consider the case where makerbot invents and patents some new reprap-based idea and patents that 16:31 < kanzure> couldn't they sue anyone for making further alterations similar to theirs? 16:31 < kanzure> even though other people might only be altering the original reprap designs 16:32 < kanzure> i think this is why the biobrick foundation "community agreement license" thingy was made- "i promise to not patent troll" 16:33 < jrayhawk> Yeah, the GPLv3 has similar arrangements, but due to the fact that they're basically contract terms that nobody signs, it's only partially useful to you. 16:33 < parolang> I think the term "derived work" only applies to copyright law, and therefore doesn't affect hardware. 16:33 < jrayhawk> Yeah. 16:34 < jrayhawk> It'll stop other source-distributing projects from operating as they'd wish, but compiling-into-physical-objects projects can still ignore the licenses. 16:35 < kanzure> i don't want to stop source-distribution projects 16:35 < kanzure> and i don't want to stop compiling-into-physical-objects projects 16:35 < kanzure> i want to stop compiling-into-physical-objects projects from stopping *other* compile projects 16:36 < jrayhawk> I don't think that's possible without signed contracts. 16:36 < parolang> jrayhawk: I think the question is concerning patents. 16:36 < kanzure> signed contracts can do that, how exactly? 16:36 < jrayhawk> Patent agreements. 16:36 < parolang> Which is why, for example, you couldn't reverse engineer an intel chip and stick it on skdb (I guess). 16:37 < parolang> But could you improve on an intel chip and stick *that* on skdb? 16:37 < kanzure> i think reverse engineering is separate 16:37 < aaronw> kanzure, how do you think project 1 might stop project 2? 16:38 < aaronw> by getting a patent on its modifications of the open source design? 16:38 < kanzure> yes 16:38 < kanzure> also, legal extortion 16:38 < jrayhawk> or even getting a patent on the original design because the patent office is a worthless sack of shit. 16:38 < kanzure> right 16:38 < kanzure> $200k in legal fees is enough to kill a peasant 16:38 < aaronw> jrayhawk, that's an issue, for sure. 16:39 < aaronw> one answer that's been suggested is defensive publication 16:39 < aaronw> that is, publishing the original design in a form that patent examiners can use as prior art 16:39 < kanzure> ooh ooh what about anti-patent-trolling contracts that you sign and get notified in public? 16:40 < aaronw> e.g. http://www.defensivepublications.org/login.jsp 16:40 < parolang> kanzure: So you have to sign the contract before you can download? 16:40 < kanzure> parolang: no 16:41 < kanzure> this would be for original publishers, mainly 16:41 < fenn> "Makerbot has dealt with at least one user that was building makerbot designs and selling them" what does "dealt with" mean? 16:41 < aaronw> kanzure, you mean, basically, a non-assertion promise. 16:41 < aaronw> correct? 16:41 < aaronw> fenn: that's covered in the backlog. keep reading. 16:41 < kanzure> do non-assertion promises work? 16:42 < kanzure> heh i think i can wire skdb to automatically generate "defensive publications" via the defensivepublications.org web pages 16:43 < kanzure> since all the details should be provided in the skdb package (more or less) 16:43 < aaronw> kanzure, they have some use. but if you require contributions to be under FOSS licenses with patent licenses included in them, that could be useful as well. 16:43 < aaronw> kanzure, that would be a fun trick 16:44 < fenn> heh gnome-terminal recognizes *.com as a link but not *.org 16:44 < kanzure> probably because of java namespaces involving "org" 16:45 < fenn> nah java namespaces include all tld's 16:45 < fenn> and they start with the tdl anyway 16:45 < kanzure> well, i have sufficiently proved that i suck at java 16:46 < aaronw> It's ok, Java sucks at you, too. 16:46 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@121-98-81-17.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:47 < kanzure> it seems that the patent issues are too broad because, as it is, anyone could use you anyway because they might have a patent for a related design/device 16:47 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:47 < kanzure> so maybe i should just ignore it 16:47 < jrayhawk> That's almost how the software world works. 16:47 < fenn> yeah, worrying about patents is stupid 16:48 < kanzure> *could use one 16:48 < fenn> people only sue when they are certain to make more money from suing than they spend on lawyers 16:48 < jrayhawk> GPLv3 at least stops major players from being dicks. 16:48 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@121-98-81-17.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:49 < jrayhawk> No, they also sue as 1) a silencing tactic and 2) a message to others who might try to enter their market 16:50 < fenn> aaronw: do you know anything about how the CC "non-commercial" clause applies in reality? 16:50 < fenn> i was always confused about both what people intended and what it actually means legally 16:50 < aaronw> fenn, I'm not sure I've ever seen one applied in reality. 16:51 < jrayhawk> Both the OSI and the DSFG principles would keep "non-commercial" from being allowed to enter SKDB anyway. (Assuming Bryan actually uses one of those.) 16:51 < aaronw> The meaning of "commercial" is very difficult to ascertain 16:51 < aaronw> CC themselves did a user poll for this purpose. 16:52 < aaronw> it's incompatible with free software principles, and generally a bad idea, IMO 16:52 < fenn> jrayhawk: not necessarily. we'll have metadata on proprietary designs too 16:52 < fenn> you just "won't be allowed" to use them, sorta like wget "isnt allowed" to ignore robots.txt 16:52 < kanzure> jrayhawk: so it seems like a "we won't be a patent troll" notery contract would do wonders to maybe show the plaintiffs acting in contempt of their word (per #1 silencers and #2 territorial bastards) 16:53 < kanzure> this would be sufficient to me- even though other entities could presumably sue over IP bullshit 16:53 < jrayhawk> But to be even slightly practical, you'd need to get that contract with everyone you distribute to. 16:53 < jrayhawk> Which is impractical in and of itself. 16:53 < kanzure> no, just the originators i would think? 16:54 < jrayhawk> Your concern is someone using the original design or a modification of that design to acquire a patent...? 16:54 < kanzure> ooh ooh how about only when the originator of the designs is a corporate entity? i.e. not an individual 16:54 < kanzure> my concern is that someone comes into the scene, releases an open source death star, and then people start using it; the original person then sues the fuck out of them 16:55 < kanzure> aaronw: mentioned estoppel might be able to help fight that 16:55 < jrayhawk> Oh, yes, then your plan would work fine. Obviously you'd need to talk to a lawyer to work out how things would be organized... 16:55 < kanzure> what i want to prevent is *others* (who are involved in SKDB, open source hardware, etc.) from preventing others from manufacturing/making shit 16:56 < kanzure> in so far as the "others" are following the OSI principles 16:56 < kanzure> er.. fooey. this gets complicated 16:56 < aaronw> kanzure, I also said that if you get contributions under licenses (like gplv3 or apache) with explicit patent provisions, the work may be done for you 16:56 < kanzure> yeah but what if they don't have the patents yet? 16:56 < jrayhawk> You might talk to a patent lawyer to see if non-assertion promises could possibly work without a signature. 16:57 < jrayhawk> s/a signature/notarization/ 16:57 < fenn> kanzure: gpl3 says "i will not patent the results of work building on this software' 16:57 < kanzure> fenn: hot diggity 16:58 < aaronw> kanzure, it also says "all patent claims owned or controlled by the contributor, whether already acquired or hereafter acquired" 16:58 < jrayhawk> I think it's actually "I will not enforce patents [...]" 16:58 < jrayhawk> Patenting itself is still fine. 16:58 < fenn> oh 16:58 < kanzure> i'd like to see the "i will not enforce patents" in courts 16:59 < fenn> "all patent claims" really? 16:59 < fenn> or just ones relating to the software in question? 16:59 < aaronw> Again, though, I'm not a patent lawyer and i'm not speaking on behalf of SFLC. If you are interested in applying to SFLC for actual legal advice, you can write to help@softwarefreedom.org, although I don't make the decision about who we accept as clients. 16:59 < jrayhawk> You should just read the license. It's saner than we're making it sound. 16:59 < aaronw> fenn: it's limited to patent claims related to the software. and i agree with jrayhawk. 16:59 < jrayhawk> Though it's still tied to license acceptence, which has issues. 16:59 < aaronw> there's not substitute for RTFL 17:00 * fenn reads 17:00 < aaronw> jrayhawk, not sure what you mean there, but i probably disagree with you. 17:01 < aaronw> copyright licenses don't have to be "accepted" because if you don't agree to be bound by them, you don't have the right to use the copyrighted work at all. 17:01 < aaronw> so you either use the work under the license, or you're infringing. 17:02 < jrayhawk> expand "use" 17:02 < aaronw> copy, modify, distribute, prepare derivative works of 17:03 < fenn> ok my eyes glazed over after about twenty seconds 17:03 < jrayhawk> The originator of the license is not bound to the license, which is problematic in the Bryan "person distributes something openly; gets evil" use case, and... 17:04 < fenn> the TENTACLES OF EVIL clause 17:04 < fenn> test* 17:04 < jrayhawk> A consumer of the licensed material does not necessicarily need to copy, modify, distribute, or prepare derivative works of it in order make the "patent original or modified versions of the design, then be evil" use case. 17:05 < jrayhawk> err, bound by the license 17:06 < fenn> btw jrayhawk, the four freedoms didn't come from OSI; "The Free Software Definition, written by Richard Stallman and published by Free Software Foundation" 17:06 < jrayhawk> oh right i am retarded 17:07 < jrayhawk> Just a big clarifying thing for people playing at home: a license is for granting rights and does not need notarization; giving up rights can only be done under notarization. 17:07 < fenn> i think it's more succinct and yet identical to the 10 debian points (examples? really?) 17:07 < aaronw> Everyone, it's been a pleasure, I have to get going. I hope you sort out your questions, but mostly I hope you hack on your projects and do not get too weighed down by legal issues. 17:07 < fenn> thanks aaronw 17:07 < fenn> jrayhawk: so every click through agreement is void? 17:07 -!- aaronw [~aaronw@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07 < jrayhawk> Yes :) 17:08 < fenn> ok hold on while i go set stuff on fire and sue people for letting me do it 17:08 < jrayhawk> Only if you already had the right to set stuff on fire. 17:08 < fenn> it's my god-given right 17:08 < jrayhawk> Uh... have fun defending that. 17:09 < genehacker> flamewar? 17:09 < jrayhawk> Nope. 17:09 < fenn> kanzure in the diybio "is this open source?" context, you might want to have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines#debian-legal_tests_for_DFSG_compliance 17:11 < jrayhawk> Well, the click-through agreement is void if you never copy, modify, distribute, or prepare derivative works of the material in question. 17:12 < jrayhawk> Otherwise you have the choice between operating under the terms of the license or being liable for infringement. 17:15 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:16 -!- klafka [~klafka@129.21.71.219] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:17 < jrayhawk> Click-throughs are wishful thinking that courts will grant some workaround to basic copyright law in favor of content creators, which does happen from time to time. 17:17 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundExchange , for instance. 17:17 < fenn> kanzure will you buy me one of these? http://www.skyscan.be/products/1172.htm 17:18 < jrayhawk> If you create a song, it is mandatorily licensed to radio stations for a set fee. 17:18 < fenn> yeah and it's amazing we still have that law 17:18 < jrayhawk> And yet people keep voting for jerks like Biden. 17:19 < fenn> what does biden say? 17:19 < jrayhawk> the RIAA and the MPAA are good for america and they're good for you :) 17:19 < kanzure> fenn: it seems to be "ask for price" 17:19 < fenn> good for breakfast 17:19 < fenn> kanzure: that should fit your unknowable budget perfectly then :) 17:20 < kanzure> uh oh 17:20 < kanzure> it's not nice to test the limits of the budget like this 17:21 < kanzure> ALSO i still haven't rigged up paypal :( 17:22 < fenn> huh 27mm maximum object size 17:22 < fenn> that's a lot smaller than i expected 17:22 < fenn> gotta chop off the mouse's head first 17:23 < fenn> i mean, uh, perfect for scanning legos, yeah, that's it 17:23 < jrayhawk> Fenn: What do you think is the relationship between the Free Software Definition and GFDL invariant sections? 17:24 -!- KingJacob [~KingJacob@c-98-201-172-235.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:24 < fenn> GFDL invariant sections are bullshit and should never even have made it into the license 17:24 < fenn> in fact i don't see the need for GFDL at all 17:25 < fenn> if you want to license cover art separately, go ahead 17:25 < kanzure> neither of you answered my original question re: open source projects that have multiple files under different licenses 17:25 < kanzure> is this good, bad, evil, to be encouraged? 17:25 < fenn> considered harmful 17:26 < jrayhawk> This is part of the GPL's ambiguity with regards to what's "mere aggregation" 17:26 < fenn> it basically just increases the workload because you have to make sure n! combinations are compatible 17:26 < jrayhawk> It is the GPL's biggest problem. 17:26 < QuantumG> so long as the licenses are "compatible" its common 17:27 < fenn> jrayhawk: if i put a collection of short stories in the same book, it's "mere aggregation" 17:27 < fenn> how is that ambiguous? 17:27 < fenn> if i use text from a GPL'ed book on the cover, that's a derived work, but could also be considered fair use 17:28 < jrayhawk> Yeah, the distinction gets hairier as time goes on. 17:31 < jrayhawk> As more and more stuff gets aggregated and its relationship becomes closer and more ambiguous as to its derivation. 17:31 < fenn> also they could just use a trademark on the cover, that solves 95% of the arguments for gfdl bullshit 17:32 < jrayhawk> Word. Though sane projects don't give a shit in the first place. 17:32 < QuantumG> its spelled "werd" 17:32 < fenn> i really didn't like the way GNU handled the reaction to GFDL either 17:32 < jrayhawk> True dat. 17:33 < fenn> like a blind enraged bull stampeding all logic and tact out of the way 17:33 < QuantumG> The usage dates back to the civil rights movement. http://bit.ly/cQQwJM 17:33 < jrayhawk> Well, you have to understand that most FSF members are there due to their admiration of Stallman. 17:34 < jrayhawk> And I don't think Stallman has ever behaved responsibly around the concepts of reason or tact. 17:35 < fenn> he seems to do pretty good with logic 17:36 < jrayhawk> He recently said something I didn't instantly hate him for! 17:36 < jrayhawk> He actually had a carefully thought out response to dual licensing. 17:37 < jrayhawk> Specifically "this is probably a net gain for the free software community" rather than "THEY'RE EVIL BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALREADY US" 17:37 < jrayhawk> which is his normal approach to the situation 17:40 < jrayhawk> Stallman normally behaves not only as if his value system is superior to all others, but that *the mere existence of other value systems are not worth consideration in any of his thoughts or actions* 17:40 < jrayhawk> Which means he is (normally) incapable of doing anything other than trolling. 17:41 < QuantumG> sigh 17:41 < QuantumG> dude, all he talks about is why his value system is better than others. 17:41 -!- drazak [~drazak@ip-69-162-134-185.static.chi2.systeminplace.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:42 < QuantumG> he not only acknowledges them, he demolishes them 17:42 -!- drazak [~drazak@ip-69-162-134-185.static.chi2.systeminplace.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:42 < QuantumG> the only thing he misses is that some of us don't wanna be smelly hippies who live our lives constrained by a self imposed moral code. 17:43 < QuantumG> Or, as I have said on previous occasions: I completely agree with Stallman's philosophy, but the difference between he and I is that I can be bought. 17:44 < jrayhawk> He demolishes them within the context of his own value system, which is is a tautological approach that serves only to convince people already subscribed to that value system. 17:44 < QuantumG> uh huh. I've seen people who were complete skeptics walk out of his speaking engagements converted. 17:45 < QuantumG> he lays down a logical foundation that is attractive to people who like to think of themselves as moral and have never questioned their beliefs in regards to software freedom. 17:47 < jrayhawk> You throw around value-importation words like "moral" and "foundation" far too freely for me to think that you're interested in understanding what I'm saying, so I think I'll give up. 17:49 < QuantumG> I think you misunderstand language.. words mean whatever people find them of value to mean. Stallman's sermons consist of: an anecdote about a printer which establishes the "motivating harm" that he experienced to define the term "freedom".. 17:51 < QuantumG> which is pretty funny really.. as if he would just use "software freedom" or "end user freedom to use and modify software" he'd at least not be using the word in an unloaded fashion 17:51 < QuantumG> but it's more powerful to just use "freedom" so he does that. 17:52 < QuantumG> During this analogy, and a little bit after, he diminishes what you or I would call "the developer's freedom".. he would never say that though, cause that would name it, and by naming it you give it power. 17:53 < QuantumG> and what's more, he wants you thinking that there's only one kind of freedom that matters.. the end user's freedom. 17:54 < QuantumG> The anecdote now becomes about establishing the rightful way for end users to think about programmers: as self-less monks that just want end users to be free. 17:55 < QuantumG> Stallman talks about how hard he worked to make GNU (or, if the anecdote is really old, that LISP machine) and how he meeked out a living selling tapes to people. 17:56 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56 < QuantumG> sometimes he'll even talk about how he always figured he could go wait tables instead of being a programmer.. 17:57 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Quit: shepazu] 18:02 < QuantumG> the war mentality is invoked around this point. Sacrifice for freedom.. it's all very baby boomer. 18:02 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@2002:123c:c05:5:214:51ff:feed:236e] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:06 < hundred-ideas> are the logs at designfiles.org/~kanzure/irclog.txt? 18:10 < fenn> designfiles.org/irclogs.txt 18:10 < fenn> but that's last updated march 13 18:11 < fenn> guess the bot went away 18:11 < jrayhawk> That "werd" thing is the most interesting thing I've read today. 18:12 < fenn> yep 18:12 < hundred-ideas> oh thanks 18:12 < QuantumG> yeah, someone told me I misspelt "werd" once so I googled it :) 18:13 < hundred-ideas> oh, so what did I miss? As I went to my meeting I was thinking that perhaps what I would do is publish all my design files and just link to a wiki page for the licensing that everyone interested can edit and iterate on 18:13 < fenn> '"Word" is the shortened form of the phrase: "my word is my bond" which was originated by inmates in U.S. prisons.' 18:13 < fenn> WERD is probably a backronym 18:13 < jrayhawk> "Searches related to werd: microsoft werd" 18:15 < fenn> or a blackronym :) 18:15 < QuantumG> heh 18:16 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:17 < jrayhawk> Language considered as implying the faith or authority of the person who utters it; statement; affirmation; declaration; promise. "Obey thy parents; keep thy word justly." --Shak. "I know you brave, and take you at your word." --Dryden. 18:17 < hundred-ideas> ok, so I'll release stuff with an open source hardware WORD. Or is it OSH WERD? 18:18 < jrayhawk> I'll start referring to CPU architecture by werd-length. 18:18 < QuantumG> hehe 18:19 < QuantumG> after every instruction the cpu says "werd" to express its agreement at the righteousness of the execution. 18:20 < jrayhawk> hee 18:22 < jrayhawk> "word" means disagreement in the context of "had a word", and agreement in the context of "kept your word" 18:22 < jrayhawk> word is a confusing word :( 18:22 < QuantumG> werd 18:25 < kanzure> did anyone reply to hundred-ideas 18:26 < jrayhawk> no 18:27 < hundred-ideas> :( 18:27 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:28 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hundred-ideas-log.txt 18:30 < kanzure> start reading at 16:18 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@140.247.248.192] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas] 18:31 < hundred-ideas> thanks 18:31 < hundred-ideas> I like the werd license! 18:32 < hundred-ideas> link not working 18:33 < kanzure> what's not working about it 18:33 < hundred-ideas> timing out 18:34 < kanzure> it loads for me 18:34 < hundred-ideas> wget http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hundred-ideas-log.txt 18:34 < hundred-ideas> --19:33:30-- http://designfiles.org/%7Ebryan/hundred-ideas-log.txt 18:34 < hundred-ideas> => `hundred-ideas-log.txt' 18:34 < hundred-ideas> Resolving designfiles.org... 146.6.84.36 18:34 < hundred-ideas> Connecting to designfiles.org|146.6.84.36|:80... 18:34 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:35 < kanzure> one sec 18:35 < jrayhawk> % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current 18:35 < jrayhawk> Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed 18:35 < jrayhawk> 100 120k 100 120k 0 0 18538 0 0:00:06 0:00:06 --:--:-- 89052 18:35 < jrayhawk> worked for me! 18:36 < hundred-ideas> hmmmm 18:36 < jrayhawk> Oh, he's on DHCP. There's probably a resolver you have that's caching inappropriately long. 18:36 < kanzure> try this: http://pastebin.ca/1843014 18:38 < jrayhawk> You might try using Google's nameservers or the old BBN nameservers. 18:39 < kanzure> the "see the license of this content at the wiki" probably won't work because someone can edit it and just reference a particular edit version number 18:39 < kanzure> but please read the backlog 18:39 < kanzure> there are some things you'll like 18:47 < kanzure> defensive publication, estoppel, any commercial/legal entity that is the initial publisher of "open source hardware" has to have a publicly notarized non-assertion promise re: patent trolling, and then licensing the hardware designs / overall kit via GPL/BSD/TAPR/CC/WTFPL/WERD, and trademarking (which is mostly useful for people who want to maintain brand identity, like makerbot industries) 18:48 < kanzure> estoppel is "a person from denying or asserting anything to the contrary of that which has, in contemplation of law, been established as the truth, either by the acts of judicial or legislative officers, or by his own deed, acts, or representations, either express or implied." 18:49 < kanzure> oops, i meant to say "estoppel is a doctrine which precludes ..." 18:49 < fenn> trademarking is a good thing. both firefox and debian are correct and did the right thing. 18:49 < kanzure> debian is trademarked? 18:50 < fenn> debian got pissy because ff didn't let them distribute modified copies of ff as "firefox" because it was trademarked, so debian released it as "iceweasel" instead 18:50 < kanzure> right 18:50 < kanzure> iirc, the modification was something really really small and ridiculous 18:50 < kanzure> but i don't remember what 18:50 < jrayhawk> The non-assertion promise could be made very interesting; it could be structured such that patents will not be enforced IF source is published, and/or against anyone else who's signed the non-assertion promise. 18:51 < jrayhawk> Something like an EU of patent peace-treaties. 18:51 < jrayhawk> Or you could make the NATO of patent peace agreements. 18:51 < kanzure> "patent peace" ha, ha 18:51 < kanzure> i bet some higher up orgs would dig that buzzword 18:51 < fenn> more like 'mutually assured destruction' 18:51 < fenn> (the foundation of NATO, in fact) 18:52 < jrayhawk> Yeah, nuclear arms are definitely a close allegory. 18:52 < kanzure> i.e. they fucking destroy your life? 18:52 < jrayhawk> Patent trolling companies are rogue nations! 18:54 < jrayhawk> If clever you could grow the agreement pool to the point where it becomes untenable to NOT be a part of the agreement pool. 18:54 < jrayhawk> Then you have successfully destroyed the patent system. 18:54 < kanzure> destroyed the patent system? i guess that would make me a reverse patent troll 18:54 < fenn> no, then you just made it a requirement that everybody owns at least one patent 18:55 < jrayhawk> You don't need to own a patent to agree not to use patents against whomever the agreement specified. 18:56 < jrayhawk> I think IBM has a patent on the business method of patent trolling at this point, btw. 18:59 < hundred-ideas> stuck in a conversation/ will review later 19:00 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@2002:123c:c05:5:214:51ff:feed:236e] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas] 19:01 < kanzure> it's called s-c-r-e-e-n 19:02 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:02 < kanzure> i wonder if creativecommons.org would be willing to sponsor that 19:02 < kanzure> those guys are militant bastards when it comes to these things :) 19:03 < fenn> patent pools don't work for the little guys 19:04 < kanzure> i haven't seen a patent pool based on signing away patent-troll-ability 19:04 < kanzure> or a patent pool based on OSI/DFSG values 19:05 -!- KingJacob [~KingJacob@c-98-201-172-235.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:05 < kanzure> hi KingJacob 19:05 < KingJacob> hey kanzure 19:05 < fenn> trolls don't join patent pools; they have nothing to gain (since they don't do anything that would require a license) 19:05 < kanzure> i think you're missing the point 19:06 < KingJacob> making any progress? 19:06 < fenn> wats the point i might be missing? 19:06 < kanzure> this isn't about your run-of-the-mill patnet troll 19:06 < kanzure> *patent 19:08 < jrayhawk> fenn: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1="20070244837".PGNR.&OS=DN/20070244837&RS=DN/20070244837 19:08 < jrayhawk> even patent trolls have to worry about some things :) 19:08 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@2002:126f:4151:9:214:51ff:feed:236e] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:10 < jrayhawk> Becoming a notary is easy in most states, by the way. 19:24 < hundred-ideas> ok 19:24 < hundred-ideas> I am back. 19:24 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:25 < hundred-ideas> hello, many-armed gnusha. You are a distributed pick-n-place robot. 19:25 * gnusha picks pikachu 19:26 < kanzure> just setting up logging 19:27 < hundred-ideas> So, Sam Starr is basically done with his bicycle lab (http://velolabproject.com/). If were to ask him to publish his designs FLOSS, how should he do so and where should he put them? --- Log opened Tue Mar 16 17:29:48 2010 17:29 < fenn> 1) don't use sketchup in the future (I blame google for this) 2) publish sketchup files online somewhere 3) publish bill of materials next to it 4) grant license to redistribute with a standard license such as GPL or CC 5) notify various mailing lists 17:30 < kanzure> sam uses sketchup too? ugh 17:30 < kanzure> god 17:30 < fenn> presumably there are some instructions for how to actually make it too, but i dont see any evidence of that 17:31 < fenn> i dont really get what "velolab" is though, beyond just a pretty box on wheels 17:31 < fenn> "how to build a box on wheels" 17:31 < kanzure> "1) get a box" 17:31 < QuantumG> 2) get NASA funding 17:31 < kanzure> O_O 17:31 < fenn> "The Velolab is a facilitator for hybridized creativity." AWESOME~ 17:32 < kanzure> ugh 17:32 < fenn> where's my wallet 17:33 < fenn> people don't seem to understand the difference between "visualization" and "design document" 17:34 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i put a symlink in public_html and set Options +FollowSymLinks in the apache config. it's still 403 forbidding, even though it's all chmod a+r 17:38 < hundred-ideas> "...How is this different from TechShop? Proprietary equipment isn't forced. The reason this is interesting is because it creates a market for open source hardware kits." 17:39 < kanzure> that sounds backwards 17:39 < kanzure> but, also, techshop is different because of the gym membership model 17:40 < QuantumG> pfft, as if there's any hot chicks at techshop 17:40 < kanzure> meredith went :( although i don't know if she's hot or not 17:40 < kanzure> anyone here ever met her? 17:41 < kanzure> :P i'm totally kidding btw 17:44 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@2002:126f:4151:9:214:51ff:feed:236e] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:44 < kanzure> huh you have to add +x? 17:44 < kanzure> anyway, http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt 17:44 < kanzure> ybit: you're welcome 17:49 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@dhcp-18-111-80-114.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:49 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: btw, channel logs can now be found at http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt 17:49 < kanzure> they are updated immediately at each message 17:49 < hundred-ideas> neat 17:55 < fenn> +x on a directory means others can look at its contents 17:55 < fenn> man i didnt get anything done today but wallow in email 17:56 < hundred-ideas> gtg 17:57 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@dhcp-18-111-80-114.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas] 18:07 < kanzure> fenn: i'm kind of surprised that you even /have/ a wallet 18:11 < fenn> i don't 18:12 < fenn> it was rhetorical, and not in a "where's my jetpack" sense either 18:13 < fenn> weasel words set off my scam detector 18:14 < kanzure> "where's my wallet" -> "oh wait i don't have a wallet because i don't wish to participate in this sort of bullshit" 18:14 < kanzure> or "oh wait i don't have a jetpack because .." etc. 18:14 < kanzure> don't worry, i got the intended meaning the first time around 18:14 < fenn> "did I just get scammed? where's my wallet" 18:14 < kanzure> heh 18:15 < fenn> such a versatile phrase 18:41 < jrayhawk> r allows you to 'read' the directory (to get a listing of files), x allows you to actually do anything useful, such as stat()ing files within. 18:41 < jrayhawk> This made more sense back when the UNIX "everything is a text file" philosophy applied to directories. 18:44 < jrayhawk> like it was thought desirable that 'cat some_directory' would behave like 'ls some_directory' does now 18:44 < QuantumG> s/text// 18:53 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:56 < kanzure> mining guy weighs in on slashdot: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1584878&cid=31500718 18:58 < kanzure> oh lookie, paul replied in that thread: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1584878&cid=31503792 18:59 < kanzure> oh wait, that was j. andrew rogers? doesn't he post to twister 18:59 < kanzure> s/twister/sifter/ 19:07 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:09 -!- Phreedom [~quassel@109.254.6.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:24 -!- Phreedom [~quassel@109.254.6.63] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:41 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48 -!- KingJacob [~KingJacob@c-98-201-172-235.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:19 < kanzure> stalk: Alexander Sotirov 20:20 < kanzure> someone on slashdot linked over to http://www.phreedom.org/solar/code/tinype/ 20:21 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/19991128041233/http://muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html "A Whirlwind Tutorial on Creating Really Teensy ELF Executables for Linux 20:26 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-70-165-196-83.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:28 < kanzure> wtf "I've had this problem with gcc for a while, with C++ code. I was writing some embedded code, and I wanted to use some simple C++. Just by adding a #include of one of the stream libraries. the executable grew by 200k, even though none of it was referenced. The C++ code in iostream is template-generated anyway, so even if the compiler wanted to include the code, it can't until I instantiate it." 20:31 < kanzure> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/search-results.php?keywords=series+of+tubes 20:31 < kanzure> :( "exception" 20:35 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@209-6-54-14.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:38 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:48 -!- avicenna [~avicenna@CPE001f5b002fd7-CM00407b859474.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:48 -!- danielfalck [~chatzilla@pool-71-111-57-122.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:52 < kanzure> this looks like a large portfolio: http://jess3.com/ 20:52 < kanzure> maybe it's more than one person doing all those websites? 20:55 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:55 -!- danielfalck [~chatzilla@pool-71-111-57-122.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:58 < hundred-ideas> hey kanzure, could you add some code to automatically paginate the log? http://ui-patterns.com/pattern/Pagination 20:59 < fenn> hey kanzure could you implement a realtime http streaming log with comet push? 21:00 < hundred-ideas> also, is the last update of the log at 20:55 CST? 21:01 < fenn> -rw-r--r-- 1 ybit ybit 25314385 2010-03-16 18:28 /var/www/irclogs.txt 21:02 < kanzure> ack: http://www.texaslinuxfest.org/talks/2010/apt-get-for-hardware/ 21:02 < kanzure> fenn: he's probably talking about http://gnusha.org/irclogs.txt 21:02 < fenn> where is that? 21:02 < kanzure> up jrayhawk's ass 21:03 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: it seems to be in synch with the channel at the moment 21:03 < kanzure> i've been looking for some auto-pagination utilities but i've found nothing that parses irssi logs directly (wtf) 21:04 < fenn> can't you just do tail -n 1000 21:04 < fenn> tail -fn 1000 21:04 < kanzure> i guess i could split up the file into chunks on a cron job 21:05 < fenn> cron never seems to work right for me (i'm probably doing it wrong) 21:06 < fenn> kanzure: you know about tail -f ? 21:06 < kanzure> yes 21:06 < kanzure> i use it to watch apache logs when i'm completely bored senseless 21:07 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: well, it's not auto-updating yet, but for now see: http://gnusha.org/logs/log_ay 21:09 < hundred-ideas> You are in PST? 21:09 < kanzure> no 21:09 < kanzure> gnusha.org is 21:09 < kanzure> the logs are being taken by gnusha now 21:09 < kanzure> hi gnusha! 21:10 < gnusha> hello 21:14 < hundred-ideas> hi there gnusha! 21:14 < kanzure> guess he's shy 21:20 -!- danielfalck [~chatzilla@pool-71-111-57-122.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115132715]] 21:20 < genehacker> gnusha's our bot correct? 21:23 < kanzure> no 21:26 -!- danielfalck [~chatzilla@pool-71-111-57-122.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:28 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: http://gnusha.org/logs/ 21:28 < kanzure> there you go.. by day 21:28 < fenn> ok now make an animated tag cloud based on hyperbolic discounting 21:28 < kanzure> fwwww 21:28 < hundred-ideas> cool. great. 21:29 < kanzure> also there's a lot missing in http://gnusha.org/logs/initial.log 21:29 < kanzure> (the log format changed) 21:30 < kanzure> fenn: do i have to 21:31 < fenn> you will be slandered if you don't acquiesce to my demands 21:31 < kanzure> :P 21:33 * fenn mumbles something about a train 21:40 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: have you seen this? http://heybryan.org/world_domination.html it's a WIP i guess 21:58 < kanzure> i want 21:58 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20060414235357/http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/evolution.htm 22:02 < kanzure> gulp i'm going on after apache cassandra at texas linux fest 22:02 < kanzure> that's a tough one to beat 22:09 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@209-6-54-14.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09 < genehacker> http://mrsec.wisc.edu/Edetc/nanolab/index.html 22:16 < jrayhawk> Usually you want tail -F 22:19 < kanzure> your MOM wants tail 22:19 < kanzure> -f 22:19 -!- randallagordon [~randallag@c-67-189-58-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21 -!- randallagordon [~randallag@c-67-189-58-222.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:21 < QuantumG> we're boldly going where hundreds have been 22:22 < QuantumG> your mom? 22:28 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:28 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:43 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]