--- Day changed Sun Apr 04 2010
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00:29 < JayDugger> fenn: Use a waterjet as a waveguide for laser cutting.
00:51 < Utopiah> (Personal Growth Series: Dr. William Dement on Healthy Sleep and Optimal Performance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8 GoogleTalks 2008)
01:29 < nsh> what did you email egeste, kanz?
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10:39 < kanzure> more occ licensing discussion: http://www.opencascade.org/org/forum/thread_15859/ (actually it's from 2009)
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11:08 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-sea_gigantism
11:12 < kanzure> i like dr. octopus' walk sequence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cglaHHuotz0
11:30 < kanzure> what the heck? http://openatrium.com/sites/openatrium.com/files/about_overview.jpg
11:30 < kanzure> i also like the site design: http://openatrium.com/
11:31 < kanzure> looks a lot like http://500friends.com/
11:31 < kanzure> a penguin riding a gnu?
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12:47 < kanzure> wut? "For example, if I find a CC-BY image, I can't just sublicense the
12:47 < kanzure> image under the CC-BY-SA. But, I could just change the image's format
12:47 < kanzure> from .png to .jpg, and that restriction is removed."
12:48 < kanzure> heh
12:49 < clemux> wut
12:50 < kanzure> took me a few seconds to process that
13:17 < Dustbin> what does CC-BY stand for I've seen it a couple times when people talk about creative commons
13:19 < Dustbin> oh I get it
13:19 < Dustbin> CC= creative commons
13:19 < Dustbin> BY= atribution
13:19 < Dustbin> SA= share alike
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14:05 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/bre_pettis.stlk
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15:33 < parolang`> Vaguely ontopic...anyone use nootropics here?  Any success?
15:41 < kanzure> what do you mean by success
15:42 < parolang`> Well, for now I mean lack of serious failure.  Addiction, depression, messed-upness.
15:43 < parolang`> I guess...fundamentally, my interest isn't exactly the same thing: I have ADHD, was diagnosed as a child but stopped taking meds early on.
15:44 < parolang`> Well...turns out, I think I might still need them, so I'm going to find a doctor and see what the doc says.
15:44 < parolang`> I know some quarters consider ritalin a nootropic, so I thought someone here might have experience with it.
15:45 < parolang`> But...this whole inquiry is a little far-fetched, so sorry if this isn't really what this channel is about.
15:47 < fenn> i took piracetam without addiction, but iw as already depressed and maybe messed-up
15:48 < fenn> as for being "smarter" well that's hard to say, but it definitely makes you see through layers of bullshit more certainly
15:48 < clemux> i took small doses of ritalin during my last exams, I liked it :p
15:49 < clemux> but that's not a very intersting experience to share...
15:49 < parolang`> Well, right now I don't have any problems with my "intelligence", but sort of related areas of attention, impulsivity, unable to complete projects (not due to laziness or lack of interest)
15:50 < parolang`> clemux: Well...I'm a little worried about how close it is to a "hard drug", whether I'll end up an junky or something like that.
15:50 < clemux> (I think i have ADD... but I've been postponing a visit to a psychiatrist for a while...)
15:50 < kanzure> no you will not end up a junky if you stay on the same dosage
15:50 < clemux> it is a hard drug
15:50 < kanzure> i mean, don't be increasing +5mg forever 
15:51 < kanzure> i am also not sure how you're planning on factoring out the placebo effect
15:51 < clemux> depending on the definition of course
15:51 < parolang`> kanzure: sensible
15:51 < parolang`> kanzure: That's a good question.
15:52 < clemux> parolang`: yeah, I took it (a junky friend could provide me a sample) because of my inability to focus, to complete tasks, etc. (and to self-test my self-diagnosis... not very clever I guess)
15:52 < parolang`> kanzure: But, here's a good example.  When someone talks to me, I don't usually hear all the words.  For the longest time I thought this was normal, and now I'm starting to realize it isn't.
15:53 < parolang`> kanzure: So...if I start understanding everything someone says to me, that would be hard for my brain to make up.
15:53 < parolang`> There are so many ways that I compensate.
15:54 < parolang`> But then...ritalin doesn't actually undo adhd, that's the other thing I'm worried about.  It just counters some of the symptoms...at least, thats what abunch of googling seems to indicate.
15:55 < clemux> hmm, it's controversial
15:55 < kanzure> sorry but "that would be hard for my brain to make up" doesn't make sense to me
15:55 < clemux> I believe
15:55 < parolang`> clemux: Sometimes I can focus...sometimes I can't.  But it's that unreliability that's the major problem.
15:56 < parolang`> kanzure: That would be hard for me to convince myself that the medicine is working when it's not?
15:56 < clemux> if the cause of the disorder is a lack of dopamine, the ritalin does "undo" it
15:56 < clemux> well, no
15:56 < clemux> but it does work on the underlying cause
15:56 < kanzure> parolang`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
15:56 < parolang`> clemux: That's good to know.
15:56 < clemux> but only while on medication
15:57 < clemux> parolang`: but I'm not sure the exact cause(s) are known for sure
15:57 < kanzure> clemux: sorry but nobody actually knows the neurophysiological effects of ritalin or any of the other amphetamines
15:57 < kanzure> anyone who says "oh it's just dopamine" is bullshitting you
15:57 < clemux> yeah
15:57 < clemux> I was goind to add "but there's the problem of not knowing exactly what stimulants do"
15:57 < kanzure> i have some notes here: http://designfiles.org/papers/adderall/
15:57 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/adderall/adderall.txt
15:58 < parolang`> thanks, I'll check it out
15:58 < kanzure> hm, that text file was more about l-kynurenine than adderall
15:58 < parolang`> Is adderall used to treat adhd?
15:59 < kanzure> yes
15:59 < kanzure> well, no
15:59 < kanzure> it's prescribed to people who are diagnosed with ADHD
15:59 < clemux> to cope with the symptoms?
16:00 < parolang`> Okay.  Well, I'm probably at the whim of the doctor, it sounds like ridilin is usually tried first and then they try other means.
16:00 < parolang`> *ridalin
16:01 < parolang`> Anyway, thanks for replying to my inquiry.
16:01 < kanzure> you should read the placebo article before you start experimenting with noots
16:02 < parolang`> Well...I'm not sure what you believe I've misunderstood about the placebo effect.
16:03 < kanzure> you're going to take pills and then try to figure out if your brain has changed as a result of the pills or not
16:03 < parolang`> Right.
16:03 < kanzure> but your brain can change either way
16:04 < parolang`> If something else has changed.
16:04 < kanzure> so you won't really know if it's due to the effects of the pills or if it's just because you're convinced it will work
16:04 < parolang`> To my knowledge, there's no way to really measure ADHD.
16:05 < parolang`> They've done some sort of brain scan that's given some empirical evidence, but I won't be able to afford a brain scan right now.
16:05 < parolang`> (Not that the brain scan would determine if the drug is working...on second thought.)
16:06 < parolang`> I also have people who should be able to tell if they see any difference in my behavior.
16:06 < kanzure> i don't think you understand
16:09 < parolang`> Well...how do you suggest I try to weed out the placebo effect?
16:13 < kanzure> maybe read up on double-blind studies
16:13 < kanzure> basically you're going to have to fight not only the placebo effect but also the observer bias and experimenter's bias
16:16 < parolang`> But...am I really going to perform a double-blind study on myself?  I assume the studies have already been done.  If the drug has efficacy for people like me, then I don't need to test that for myself.
16:19 < parolang`> It seems like I can't really weed out the placebo effect, because I'm not really experimenting on myself.
16:22 < kanzure> you're taking a drug and then seeing what the results/effects are, right?
16:24 < parolang`> yes
16:26 < parolang`> But...I don't think I'll be able to prove what the results are to the extent that you deem necessary.
16:27 < parolang`> Unless you know a way.
16:27 < clemux> kanzure: when you say 'says "oh it's just dopamine" is bullshitting you
16:28 < clemux> oops, i failed my quote
16:28 < kanzure> heh
16:29 < clemux> you mean, "nobody does know how exactly do the stimulants increase dopamine/norepinephrine levels" ?
16:29 < ybit> -"do the" :)
16:29 < kanzure> no. everybody basically says "it increases dopamine", but *which* dopamine, *which* receptors, and in *which* regions of the brain
16:30 < clemux> and that we don't know what other effects it could have?
16:30 < clemux> kanzure: oh, right
16:30 < kanzure> i think we do know what the other effects are though- there's lots of clinical trials on adderall and related drugs
16:33 < parolang`> (Right now my mind's foggy because of too large of an easter dinner :))
16:33 < clemux> hmm
16:33 < kanzure> easter? isn't that next month
16:33 < parolang`> Nope.  Today, in fact :)
16:33 < clemux> I still don't understand what you mean by "nobody actually knows the neurophysiological effects of ritalin or any of the other  amphetamines
16:33 < parolang`> Happy Easter
16:34 < clemux> ybit: thanks for the correction :) (English is not my native language)
16:34 < parolang`> clemux: They've observed that it seems to work, they just don't know how or why.
16:34 < ybit> np clemux :)
16:36 < clemux> (but I understand it was quite dumb to talk about "dopamine levels" as I did :)
16:42 < clemux> hmm, time to sleep (I'll read your answer tomorrow, if there's one)
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18:14 < kanzure> hm what is rejon doing presenting at txlf
18:22 < kanzure> random blurb of publicity (nothing new): http://www.newesttechnology.net/articles/45740/maker-bot-open-source-manufacturing
18:22 < kanzure> suggestions for my txlf presentation?
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18:54 < JayDugger> Good evening, all.
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20:08 < kanzure> hm apparently livly.org is in eri gentry's garage
20:34 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
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21:23 < kanzure> eri gentry is hosting a diybio meetup in mountain view, ca
21:23 < kanzure> via meetup.com
21:26 < kanzure> "Gene flaw found in induced stem cells" http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100331/full/464663a.html 
21:26 < kanzure> "Stem-cell researchers have puzzled over why reprogrammed cells taken from adult tissues are often slower to divide and much less robust than their embryo-derived counterparts."
22:14 < kanzure> i don't know what this was meant to be, but it's an absolutely hilarious demonstration of yak shaving: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/youtube_videos_from_irc_channel/Giant_Robot_Project_Part_1-86Krv3gE-c4.flv
22:20 < kanzure> oh i guess it was serious
22:22 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXnv4VeFOHY
22:32 < kanzure> stalk: Jaimie Mantzel
22:32 < kanzure> http://www.robotsnob.com/archives/2009/01/interview-giant-robot-builder.php
22:38 < kanzure> also, all youtube.com videos that have been referenced in this channel are being downloaded to that folder
22:38 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/youtube_videos_from_irc_channel/
22:41 < Dustbin> well that's pretty cool
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23:10 < Dustbin> http://jamius.com/videos/100_0070.mov
23:10 < Dustbin> that's how his giant robot will work
23:10 < Dustbin> I like the design
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