--- Day changed Wed Apr 28 2010
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01:16 < fenn> red green blue yellow white black
01:17 < fenn> black prints really nice.. need to get more of that
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05:28 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
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06:34 < kanzure> http://makerblock.com/2010/04/open-source-monopolies-unicorns-and-perpetual-motion-machines/
06:35 < kanzure> http://www.slideshare.net/adafruit/open-source-hardware-and-the-web
06:37 < kanzure> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/opensourcehardware/
06:38 < kanzure> http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW
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06:47 < kanzure> http://www.scivee.tv/ is probably like jove?
06:47 < kanzure> "citizen scientists and their contributions to internet-based chemistry" http://www.scivee.tv/node/14770
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08:31 < kanzure> hm it turns out they have my dad's name on record
08:32 < kanzure> (i'm here for completely different, coincidental reasons)
08:32  * kanzure is in DLA piper
08:39 < kanzure> "The President just approved $8 billion in loan guarantees to build a new conventional nuke plant in the State of Georgia. All of the new plants being
08:39 < kanzure> considered rely on federal loan guarantees for construction financing. What this means is that nuke plants are not economically viable without federal (taxpayer)"
08:39 < kanzure> "assistance. Under current planning there would be a minimum of 8 new plants with $80-$100 billion in federal loan guarantees. In addition to this subsidy
08:39 < kanzure> there are also operating subsidies for nukes."
08:44  * kanzure wonders what a "zwitterion" is
08:44 < kanzure> "I have a graduate student who is trying to classify a system that he has created.  He is using one substance that is a zwitterion and one substance that starts off neutral.  The two combine to form a molten, low-melting complex.
08:44 < kanzure> He would like to know if there are other substances of this nature and whether they have been classified as ionic liquids or eutectic solvents."
08:44 < kanzure> "We have tried a few different searches to determine if other such substances exist, mostly using keyword searches in SciFinder, Inspec, Compendex, ISI, and Scopus.  We tried a few structure searches, mostly in SciFinder, Reaxys, and Gmelin CrossFire, but we didn't get much."
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09:08 < genehacker> whoa, it cost $100,000 in energy to make 1 kg of mechanosynthetic replicators
09:09 < genehacker> in energy terms that is VERY energy intensive
09:10 < genehacker> ~ 20,000 KWh/kg
09:12 < JayDugger> A zwitterion names an ion with a charge of -2 or +2, IIRC.
09:13 < JayDugger> What are eutectic solvents?
09:13 < genehacker> in comparison, injection molding takes ~3 KWh/kg and RepRap takes 6-20
09:13 < genehacker> http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/Figures/4.42.JPG
09:14 < JayDugger> When the NRC charges US$4.5 million per reactor (not power plant, just 1 reactor) in annual licensing fees, loan guarantees make a certain amount of sense.
09:15 < JayDugger> Hard to turn a profit with anything small, but building extra-large sizes for profitability makes iterative learning very hard and the failure's costs very high.
09:16 < JayDugger> Even with these man-made disadvantages, fission still powers a good fraction of human civilization. Not bad for a technology under a century old.
09:17 < JayDugger> And in further comparison, I can buy a RepRap, and Freitas probably writes his usual paper machinery. (If we had atomic precision, we could expect it to cost this much to build to atomic precision.)
09:19 < JayDugger> And even so, a good many products don't need atomic placement accuracy of <10e-10.
09:19 < JayDugger> Heck, I doubt you could expose many drugs to the air for very long with ruining that rate. (I admit that's a WAG.)
09:20 < genehacker> yeah
09:20 < genehacker> the point is proposed molecular assemblers are incredibly inefficient
09:21 < JayDugger> Point taken. Does he emphasize the designs exist for easy analysis, not optimal production?
09:22 < genehacker> I'm not sure
09:22 < genehacker> I think they need to redesign mechanosynthesis to be less energy intensive
09:23 < JayDugger> Well...
09:23 < genehacker> the thing is the process generates lots of heat, they're trying to get rid of the heat by pumping it out
09:24 < genehacker> biological systems reuse the heat I think
09:24 < JayDugger> we have a range of manufacturing techniques that vary, depending on the end product among other things.
09:24 < JayDugger> Some take a great deal of energy at high density,
09:24 < JayDugger> Others--less so.
09:25 < genehacker> what else takes 20,000 kwh/kg of product produced?
09:25 < JayDugger> Compare hot house agriculture with open air farming.
09:25 < JayDugger> Off the top of my head?
09:25 < genehacker> off the top of your head
09:25 < JayDugger> Armor ceramics?
09:25 < genehacker> I doubt it
09:25 < JayDugger> I admit: another guess on my part.
09:26 < JayDugger> Do microchips take that much energy to make?
09:26 < JayDugger> Fuel rods for atomic power plants?
09:26 < JayDugger> Radionuclides for cancer therapies?
09:26 < genehacker> maybe
09:26 < JayDugger> Guesses all, I confess.
09:26 < genehacker> maybe radionuclide
09:27 < JayDugger> Yeah, but that one's a bit of a cheat, since it has such small product mass.
09:27 < JayDugger> Perhaps jewelry-quality synthetic gems?
09:31 < JayDugger> I expect, given the high energy input and the low error rate of Freitas's examples, that the given design represents only a small spot in the design space. Other designs might trade-off error rate for lower energy, or higher speed.
09:32 < JayDugger> We don't generally mill forks and spoons from solid metal nowadays, much less use EDM.
09:32 < JayDugger> Stamping costs much less for a low-precision product like silverware.
09:34 < JayDugger> Happy reading, genehacker!
09:34 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
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09:35 < genehacker> so let's see it here it takes 0.17 MJ per 2 gram DRAM
09:35 < genehacker> yeah stamping cost way less
09:38 < genehacker> 23 KW/kg of 32 MB dram
09:38 < genehacker> that's surprising
09:38 < genehacker> *23 KWh/kg
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13:45 < kanzure> http://wyss.harvard.edu/viewevent/43/new-directions-in-synthetic-biology
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13:49 < hundred-ideas> any suggestions on best DNA stain to use for electrophoreses, or where to buy it?
13:49 < hundred-ideas> I've referred to http://bitesizebio.com/2008/03/03/ethidium-bromide-the-alternatives/
13:50 < kanzure> avoid ethidium bromide
13:50 < kanzure> cyberstain or whatever is the standard these days
13:50 < kanzure> sybergold or something?
13:50 < kanzure> gah i forget the name
13:50 < hundred-ideas> sybrsafe
13:50 < kanzure> thanks.
13:50 < hundred-ideas> sybrgreen, and sybrgold?
13:52 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: hey, let me send you a demo of the flashmob stuff
13:52 < kanzure> one sec
13:53 < hundred-ideas> wow, so it's not sms?
13:53 < kanzure> it can do sms and voice :)
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15:20 < kanzure> hi quantumkat 
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17:33 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
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17:48 < kristianpaul> JayDugger: hey there
17:49 < bkero> Someone here know about bicycles?
17:50  * kanzure wonders where dave went
17:50 < kanzure> he runs a custom bicycle fab shop here in austin
17:50 < kanzure> and recently took fenn's hextatic parts
18:11 < ybit3> can i has an alternative gradient magnetometer and an x-ray difractometer plz?
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18:30 < kanzure> ybit3: depends on the price. link me to an ebay auction and i might be able to spot the cash.
18:33 < fenn> meh: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/magazine/02self-measurement-t.html?pagewanted=2
18:33 < fenn> er, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/magazine/02self-measurement-t.html
18:34  * fenn rides to dojo to study cs229
18:34 < kanzure> oh look it's gary
18:34 < kanzure> wow fenn got in the nytimes before i did
18:34 < kanzure> impressive
18:35 < fenn> i'm older, it's not fair
18:35 < fenn> let's see if i can ride to palo alto caltrain before the train gets there
18:36 < ybit3> kanzure: heh, i don't think you want to spend ~$10k
18:38 < kanzure> ybit3: maybe i do
18:38 < kanzure> god damn it, when i tell you people i have money, *I MEAN IT*
18:38 < kanzure> jf;k;kjf;kjf
18:38 < kanzure> :P
18:38 < JayDugger> Didn't you want to have some dental work?
18:38 < ybit3> okay okay, calm down, we can spend your money, no need to get frustrated, not just hand it over
18:38 < kanzure> JayDugger: want? No, it was kind of forced on me by others.
18:38 < ybit3> s/not/now
18:38 < kanzure> err
18:38 < kanzure> heh
18:39 < kanzure> don't know if it works like that though :D
18:39 < JayDugger> Your own teeth, I guess. :/
18:39 < kanzure> well, it was just some dental work that had to be done
18:39 < ybit3> it's as simple as giving a donation via paypal to heathmatlock@gmail.com
18:39 < kanzure> i'm not going to do donations
18:39 < kanzure> only specific items and things to buy, preferably.
18:39 < JayDugger> Considered LASIK?
18:40 < ybit3> think of it more of an investment that may never pay off
18:40 < kanzure> JayDugger: why are you suggesting things like this to spend money on?
18:40 < kanzure> i mean, why not manufacturing tools/toys?
18:40 < JayDugger> Self-improvement has a good yield.
18:40 < ybit3> good attitude takes your further though
18:40 < JayDugger> How often will you use tool X?
18:40 < JayDugger> How often will you use your eyes?
18:40 < kanzure> doesn't lasik have some threshold at which point it no longer offers an improvement
18:41 < ybit3> congrats on making it to nytimes fenn :)
18:41 < JayDugger> Yeah, I don't think it affects presbyopia, and not everyone's a candidate.
18:41  * kanzure nods
18:41 < kanzure> on the other hand,
18:42 < kanzure> it's probably the last place fenn wants to be
18:42 < JayDugger> You can wait for refractive lens exchange to reach FDA approval, though.
18:42 < ybit3> what? are you kidding me kanzure? he won't stop talking about it in #noisebridge
18:42 < ybit3> (kidding)
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18:43 < JayDugger> That will affect presbyopia and extreme farsightedness.
18:53 < ybit3> kanzure: what's too expensive?
18:53 < ybit3> $10k?
18:53 < kanzure> no
18:53 < ybit3> $15k?
18:53 < ybit3> hehe, you know where this is going
18:54 < kanzure> that's why i'm not going to let you do big giant cash wads all at once
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19:30 < fenn> kanzure can i get a bluetooth tooth implant?
19:32 < fenn> then you can hear the delicious sounds of me eating orange chocolate sherbet
19:32 < fenn> (the real reason i'm at the dojo today)
19:37 < fenn> i dont see why this isn't a real buyable-now product: http://www.impactlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/bluetooth-tooth-304.jpg
19:38 < fenn> "not valid in alaska, hawaii, or any lunar colony"
19:45 < jrayhawk> same reason most awesome thing never get made: liability issues
19:51 < fenn> well i'm down to make a tooth that does more than chew
19:52 < jrayhawk> eating while on the phone would be very unpleasant for the other parties involved
19:52 < fenn> it would be more for input anyway
19:53 < fenn> i dont think you'd get a very good sound from a tooth microphone
19:53 < fenn> could be wrong
19:53 < jrayhawk> You guys should get cozy with the bmezine community. They have a lot of experience in the field ofbeing guinea pigs to amateur surgeries and implantations.
19:57 < fenn> also you could offer it to schizophrenics that think the government has implanted radio tooth for mind control blah blah
19:57 < fenn> then they'd know what a real tooth implant is like
19:59 < fenn> jrayhawk: or maybe not
20:11 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_tourism
20:15 < JayDugger> Such a tooth might serve well for in-mouth chemical analysis while eating, and with sufficient work, tracking the microorganism population of the mouth.
20:18 < JayDugger> Mouth pH over time might not take too much work.
20:18 < JayDugger> IANAD(entist).
20:23 < ybit3> kanzure: the gradient magnetometer, it requires a water-cooled electromagnet typically, a dc power supply that can sweep current at up to 50A, a lock in amplifier, and a hall probe. the rest of the system could be home built, with time and a little expertise. the magnet/power supplies can be done, but you don't come across them frequently, and all this on the order of 10-12K
20:23 < fenn> umm, what for?
20:23 < ybit3> the x-ray system, er, i give up on it for now
20:24 < fenn> 50A MRI machine?
20:24 < JayDugger> What use had you for an x-ray source?
20:24 < katsmeow-afk> weld crack detection
20:24 < ybit3> i dunno, i've been reading up on nanomaterials lately
20:25 < ybit3> i was wanting to experiment with the magnetism of some materials JayDugger
20:26 < JayDugger> Ah.
20:26 < JayDugger> Good night, all.
20:26 < ybit3> gn
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20:26 -!- ybit is now known as ybit3
20:27 < ybit3> well, kanzure, there you go, if you need a formal proposal, i can do that.
20:27  * ybit3 sleeps before 8 hours of census work
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21:21 < fenn> dammit. now i dont remember who i'm supposed to email about this stupid magazine article
21:50  * bkero giggles.  http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/ubuntu-releases/.pool/ubuntu-10.04-desktop-amd64.iso
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22:04 < fenn> why is that funny?kero: 
22:05 < bkero> It doesn't come out until tomorrow
22:27 < kanzure> fenn: isn't 1kfriend.ly supposed to solve that "now i dont remember who i'm supposed to email about this stupid magazine article" problem?
22:32 < fenn> exactly
22:33 < fenn> do you even have the host name?
22:34 < kanzure> no, it's $70/year
22:35 < fenn> damn those prehensile libyans!
23:00 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.fusor.net/
23:04 < fenn> shock wave fusion?
23:04 < fenn> isnt that just bubble fusion with extra money thrown at it?
23:05 < katsmeow-afk> i wasn't studying it, i just tossed it out as a possible means to power makerbot things
23:08 < fenn> uhh.. no
23:08 < katsmeow-afk> don't need "free electricity"?
23:08 < fenn> they only use like 50W
23:08 < fenn> less than a refrigerator
23:09  * katsmeow-afk is going to shut up now, knowing that any more words will only make more people more angry at her
23:10 < fenn> grr! stupid kat!
23:10  * kanzure pokes the other kat
23:10 < fenn> sigh. i suck at doing homework
23:26 < bkero> watch this instead: http://vimeo.com/10149605
23:29 < fenn> woah i wanna play that game so hard i could spend someone else's money on it
23:36 < quantumkat> Does anyone know of any neuroscience podcasts or videos? I don't mean neuroscience news or anything like "the neuroscience of creativity," but something more like a lecture?