--- Day changed Sat May 01 2010
00:36 < fenn> yak shaving
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01:01 < fenn> this ought to have been easier to find: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenSCAD_User_Manual/Building_on_Linux/UNIX
01:01 < fenn> unfortunately google for "compiling openscad" and you will get everything BUT that
01:20 < fenn> wow this takes a long time
01:20 < JayDugger> Thank you for the link, fenn.
01:27 < fenn> cool, map of trees in SF: http://www.gaffta.org/projects/tenderloin-dynamic/
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03:17 < kanzure> fenn: what do you think the chances are that the austin hackerspace people will listen to your notes
03:17 < kanzure> re: the mechmate
03:28 < fenn> ff
03:28 < fenn> what will happen is somebody will try to do something stupid and less will get pissed and say "dont touch it!"
03:28 < fenn> s/less/les/
03:31 < fenn> i wonder if http://austinhackerspace.org/ was explicitly modeled after noisebridge.net/wiki/Noisebridge
03:31 < fenn> damn i hate pasting in a laggy terminal
03:33 < fenn> how am i supposed to do a footnote if <ref> doesn't work
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08:24 < kanzure> hello Noahj 
08:24 < Noahj> Hey
09:15 < fenn> I don't care if Apple starts cranking out Home Neuro-Uploading Kits, I'll never give that snake-oil salesman Steve Jobs a *penny.* An Apple nanoforge would cost three times what any other nanoforge costs, would produce pretty but extremely shoddy materials, and would require only Apple-approved CHON--and I would just *love* to see the approval process template engineers would have to endure to get their designs accepted for the iForge Store.
09:16 < fenn> The software to run it would be fairly easy to use and pretty, sure--but also incredibly limited compared to even freeware nanoforge apps, riddled with bugs, and so overloaded with copy-protection AI sentries that you wouldn't even be able to produce a Granny Smith apple without paying the goddamned company a royalty to maintain Steve Jobs' cryo-preserved head.
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10:33 < kanzure> bkero: you around?
10:33 < kanzure> i'm thinking of getting this: http://phones.verizonwireless.com/htc/incredible/
10:33 < kanzure> i'd like to get an n900 but they aren't subsidized anywhere
10:33  * bkero would recommend the n900
10:34 < bkero> Incredible isn't too bad if you don't like having a keyboard :P
10:34 < kanzure> i presently have a nokia sonya thing. it's trash.
10:35  * bkero would recommend an original droid because of the keyboard
10:35 < kanzure> what's an "original"
10:36 < bkero> Droid
10:44 < kanzure> so, uh, my mom is involved with this and she wants to buy me a new cell phone
10:44 < kanzure> but she doesn't think the n900 works with at&t because they don't support the phone
10:44 < kanzure> i'm trying to explain to her that it doesn't work like that
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10:59 < fenn>  heh, my crappy modify/sense/control slide ended up in erik de bruijn's powerpoint
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12:37 < fenn> wow matweb is terrible if you actually need to use it
12:38 < fenn> i'm trying to sort aluminum alloys by thermal conductivity.. it's totally not obvious how to do this or if it's even possible
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13:05 < fenn> man, these parts are beautiful: http://hydraraptor.blogspot.com/2010/04/abs-on-pet-tape.html
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13:08 < fenn> PET is mylar right?
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13:28 < kanzure> hmm the backflip is ok i guess
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14:10 < jrayhawk> The n900 doesn't do 3G on AT&T, but I've never found reason to care.
14:10 < jrayhawk> Some phone companies will give you a discount for not using their contract phone subsidies on full data plans.
14:12 < jrayhawk> T-Mobile was the first to start doing that, I think.
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14:13 < jrayhawk> Usually said discount is roughly equivalent to what you'd be getting in subsidy anyway.
14:28 < jrayhawk> I replaced a battery for an iPhone the other day. The process looked like it was designed to be difficult and error-prone to do.
14:29 < jrayhawk> Which is incredibly crass and clever.
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18:19 < kanzure> hey wolf!
18:34 < wolfspraul> kanzure: hi
18:35 < wolfspraul> read your singapore mail, finally paid attention to your domain and read heybryan.org
18:35 < kanzure> :)
18:36 < wolfspraul> you seem to have some energy there! good!
18:36 < wolfspraul> :-)
18:36 < wolfspraul> you are 19yr old?
18:36 < kanzure> i turned 20 a few months ago
18:36 < wolfspraul> he he
18:36 < wolfspraul> when I sealed my first big deal, I 'rounded up' my age from 20 to 21 cause I was worried they wouldn't take me serious as a 20yr old in the US
18:37 < wolfspraul> I have gotten a little more self confident since those days...
18:37 < kanzure> i round down ;)
18:37 < wolfspraul> to the matter of the subject, I'm no big fan of most of what's going on in 'open hardware'
18:38 < wolfspraul> so I try to stay mostly silent, why disturb people when they have fun...
18:38 < kanzure> sure
18:38 < kanzure> i've noticed that you think that open source hardware is *not* manufacturable? or something like that
18:38 < wolfspraul> but since you are so young, at least you should have a chance to hear different thoughts
18:38 < kanzure> fenn: are you around
18:39 < wolfspraul> first I look at the hardware industry from the perspective of where it's happening (the manufacturing), and that is Asia
18:39 < kanzure> of course.
18:39 < wolfspraul> need to think about the economics for a while
18:40 < wolfspraul> then you realize the reprap/diy stuff is nonsense, just a hobby of some early retirees or bored people
18:40 < wolfspraul> (putting my flamesuit on, I hope at this time not many people here...)
18:40 < kanzure> the quality of work is subpar, if that's what you mean
18:40 < wolfspraul> it's all about capital, investing the capital to gain economics of scale
18:40 < wolfspraul> the production of a chip costs 20-50 US cents
18:40 < wolfspraul> every chip
18:40 < wolfspraul> keep that in mind
18:41 < wolfspraul> the problem is the one-time investment to get there
18:41 < kanzure> of the 10B dollar manufacturing facility?
18:41 < wolfspraul> Apple spent an estimated 1 billion USD before they could sell the first product with an A4 inside
18:41 < wolfspraul> it's all over the place
18:41 < wolfspraul> not just the photosteppers in the foundry
18:41 < wolfspraul> lots of one-timers everywhere
18:41 < wolfspraul> design
18:41 < wolfspraul> testing
18:42 < wolfspraul> setting up an efficient production process
18:42 < wolfspraul> but the end result is phenomenal. a very powerful computer that can do amazing things for a few bucks.
18:42 < wolfspraul> THAT MATTERS!
18:42 < wolfspraul> think from the perspective of people who make 200 USD / month, if you can
18:42 < kanzure> i'm close to that anyway, so yes i can
18:42 < wolfspraul> I get a nicely working GSM cellphone here for 18 USD retail
18:43 < wolfspraul> kanzure: but you are probably surrounded by tons of people who make much more, and you clearly have that on your horizon
18:43 < wolfspraul> it's different
18:43 < wolfspraul> but anyway
18:43 < wolfspraul> so the HW economics is all about capital and economies of scale. towards the IC.
18:43 < wolfspraul> apple gets it
18:44 < wolfspraul> so from that perspective pretty much everything going on in open hardware is just a hobby
18:44 < wolfspraul> like the hobby cooks who buy more expensive knifes and pots than the #1 chefs in the world :-)
18:44 < wolfspraul> it's OK, but not very relevant
18:44 < kanzure> sure
18:45 < wolfspraul> you can find this in all industries
18:45 < wolfspraul> who buys the most expensive/fanciest/most fashionable guitars?
18:45 < wolfspraul> the wannabes! :-)
18:45 < wolfspraul> not real successful stage artists
18:45 < wolfspraul> they may run around with some 20 yr old crap, cause they are artists, not consumers
18:46 < wolfspraul> Jon and I are fighting over this, but of course I love the man
18:46 < wolfspraul> he's cool
18:46 < kanzure> in general, "make magazine" is definitely a hobbyist attractor
18:46 < wolfspraul> if you ever come to China, be my guest
18:46 < kanzure> but there are some interesting projects out there in the open source space
18:46 < kanzure> like emc2
18:46 < wolfspraul> well I just described it to you
18:47 < wolfspraul> the real deal is going on elsewhere
18:47 < kanzure> sure
18:47 < wolfspraul> look at what apple does, killing half the stupid computer industry, rightfully so
18:47 < wolfspraul> and then MTK
18:47 < wolfspraul> nobody knows MTK but they ship 95 million chipsets per month now! :-)
18:47 < kanzure> MTK does cell phone kits or something?
18:47 < kanzure> oh, nevermind
18:47 < wolfspraul> yes
18:48 < wolfspraul> so any open model first should get in touch with reality
18:48 < wolfspraul> not the reality of a high-paid office employee bored on the weekends
18:48 < wolfspraul> but the reality of 6 billion people on the planet. because that's where the volume will come from.
18:49 < wolfspraul> in theory you integrate any consumer electronic into one die, produce it for 50 cents
18:50 < wolfspraul> so let me switch to Mr. Nice mode - what is #hplusroadmap all about?
18:50 < wolfspraul> what are you guys doing here?
18:51 < kanzure> i keep goons in here for focusing on accelerating trends (like the technological singularity), human enhancements / augmentations, and synthetic biology
18:51 < kanzure> so we've been working on skdb, which acts like apt-get for hardware
18:51 < kanzure> and apt-get is a linux tool, if you don't know about it just think of it as an app store i guess
18:52 < wolfspraul> don't worry I use it every day
18:52 < kanzure> :)
18:52 < kanzure> i have some funding available to focus on my crazy hardware projects
18:52 < kanzure> but not much of an idea of how to best apply it
18:52 < wolfspraul> invest in yourself
18:52 < wolfspraul> meaning travel to the companies that make hardware and talk to them
18:53 < kanzure> hm
18:53 < genehacker> hey kanzure, wanna buy a centrifuge?
18:53 < kanzure> depends on how much it is
18:54 < kanzure> if it's too much, i should just build one
18:54 < genehacker> ~$15
18:54 < kanzure> wtf
18:54 < genehacker> RAS is selling one
18:54 < kanzure> do you have a model number
18:54 < genehacker> it's a pretty crappy centrifuge
18:54 < drazak> beh
18:54 < genehacker> no, but I can get one tomorrow
18:54 < kanzure> maybe i'll call up richard
18:54 < genehacker> apparently they bummed one off one of the biolabs
18:54 < genehacker> yeah give him a call
18:55 < genehacker> it works fine though
18:56 < kanzure> wolfspraul: any other suggestions?
18:56 < kanzure> who should i go meet with
18:57 < wolfspraul> well I don't fully understand your interests, so not sure
18:57 < wolfspraul> I don't know anything about genes & bio stuff
18:57 < kanzure> it's like programming
18:58 < wolfspraul> so I'm not sure what motivates you. I'm motivated by the power of technology, and make it accessible for people.
18:58 < wolfspraul> that's why I think about foundries, ICs, assembly/production etc.
18:59 < wolfspraul> but not about genes :-) maybe I should... :-)
18:59 < wolfspraul> so my comment was only related to 'open hardware', not to the bio stuff
19:00 < wolfspraul> you certainly have a lot of energy, judging from your homepage. follow what interests you the most.
19:00 < wolfspraul> have you been to singapore?
19:00 < kanzure> no, not yet
19:01 < wolfspraul> it's different from china, but you need to start somewhere. a very very nice place for sure.
19:01 < wolfspraul> I worked there for 2 months 10 years ago, still have good memories.
19:02 < kanzure> so, i want to have an HQ for my projects
19:02 < wolfspraul> HQ = company?
19:02 < kanzure> that's why i've been running around raising capital from capital factory and talking to lawyers lately etc.
19:02 < kanzure> HQ = headquarters
19:02 < kanzure> just a general term
19:02 < wolfspraul> you mean a legal entity?
19:02 < wolfspraul> or what?
19:02 < kanzure> uh, like superman's fortress of solitude, except with manufacturing equipment, biotech labs and shit :)
19:02 < kanzure> i don't care if it's legal or not, to be honest :)
19:03 < wolfspraul> well obviously it should be where you live, no?
19:03 < wolfspraul> I don't know enough about you.
19:03 < kanzure> sorry, what are you asking?
19:03 < kanzure> you were asking about my motivations
19:03 < wolfspraul> some rich folks setup their 'thinking villa' or whatnot in Thailand, like a 'work retreat'
19:03 < kanzure> i want a "do" villa
19:03 < wolfspraul> I'm not sure you are in that category
19:04 < wolfspraul> well a good rule is to ask yourself a number of times "and then?"
19:04 < kanzure> i have a small hackerspace about 1mi away from my apartment here in austin that i have been working at
19:04 < wolfspraul> what's next? what's the next step?
19:04 < wolfspraul> singapore is on the other side of the world, what would you want there?
19:04 < wolfspraul> why there?
19:05 < wolfspraul> those things are expensive. travel, rent, etc.
19:05 < kanzure> err
19:05 < kanzure> i'm not going to singapore
19:05 < kanzure> that was someone else's email that i forwarded
19:05 < wolfspraul> ah :-)
19:05 < wolfspraul> well then
19:05 < kanzure> sorry for the confusion
19:06 < kanzure> my next travel destination is boston for a conference called humanity+ summit 2010
19:06 < wolfspraul> what do you want to do in your HQ?
19:06 < kanzure> i want to have enough resources to build things without being pressured to be a commercial success
19:06 < kanzure> but i wouldn't mind also doing commercial hardware projects
19:06 < kanzure> engineering consulting firms have always impressed me :>
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19:08 < wolfspraul> 'build things' - like what?
19:09 < wolfspraul> sounds like you should spend some time thinking before you start building :-)
19:09 < kanzure> this stuff: http://adl.serveftp.org/skdb/doc/proposals/trans-tech.yaml
19:10 < wolfspraul> can't help you with that
19:10 < wolfspraul> I can only build plain old computers
19:10 < kanzure> not all of it is biology
19:10 < kanzure> there's stuff on there like exoskeletons, stewart platforms, repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulators, photolithography equipment, etc.
19:11 < genehacker> do you build computers from scratch?
19:12 < kanzure> no, i buy microprocessors usually
19:12 < genehacker> *question for wolfspraul
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19:16 < wolfspraul> no I try to make them work
19:29 < kanzure> "You took the specified cutter path, and your workpiece was eaten by a grue."
19:35 < genehacker> I should really play through Zork sometime...
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19:41  * fenn watches the door close behind wolfgang
19:42 < kanzure> that was odd.
19:42 < kanzure> nice to see someone from qi-hardware showing up in here though
19:42 < fenn> yeah i would like to know more about them, what they actually do and how it all works
19:42 < kanzure> /join #qi-hardware
19:42 < fenn> i idled for a while but nothing ever happened
19:44 < fenn> i dont really get the nanonote tbh, what's it for, who would buy one
19:44 < fenn> should be using something like the beagleboard processor i think
19:45 < fenn> 32MB of ram, no ethernet, no wifi, and they were talking about leaving usb off because of the connector??
19:46 < kanzure> bkero: didn't you get one?
19:46 < fenn> let's just dip it in black epoxy to make sure you can't get any data in/out
19:46 < kanzure> i saw an olpc the other day
19:46 < kanzure> i might have mentioned this
19:46 < kanzure> but i spent like 10min trying to find the handcrank
19:46 < fenn> "It's got a headphone jack. <3 I'm pretty much sold." <- the only comment
19:46 < kanzure> turns out they left that particular feature off
19:46 < fenn> yeah the crank comes with a special power supply that doesn't really exist
19:47 < genehacker> is the crank even practical?
19:48 < kanzure> "nooo! my phd thesis!" - abdul's last words before cranking his poor heart out
19:48 < fenn> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Freecharge_portable_charger#Hand_cranked_power
19:48  * kanzure wonders where quantumkat went
19:48 < kanzure> hmph
19:49 < genehacker> whoa only 6 watts
19:49 < genehacker> that's pretty reasonable actually
19:50 < fenn> dammit why do i have to do everything
19:50 < fenn> there ought to be a leg-strappable pull cord generator out there already
19:50 < kanzure> put that weight to good use!
19:50 < fenn> hand cranked .. pff
19:51 < genehacker> damn, now where's that chart showing how much energy you can harness from human body heat?
19:51 < kanzure> from human body heat? not sure i saw that one
19:51 < genehacker> yep
19:51 < genehacker> remember the matrix? someone actually did the calculations on how much you could get out
19:52 < genehacker> actually how much you can get out from different parts of the body
19:52 < fenn> uh, wouldnt that cause the human to overheat?
19:52 < genehacker> not sure
19:52 < fenn> or die of hypothermia
19:53 < genehacker> I think overheating is more likely
19:53 < genehacker> after all the most efficient heat engines have lower heat rates
19:53 < fenn> well, as long as you can turn it on and off
19:55 < genehacker> let's see human puts out 60 watts of heat?
19:57 < kanzure> i got a wireless internet usb dongle from someone who signed the letter as "- ARCHITECT"
19:58 < kanzure> originating in .. london?
19:58 < fenn> rogue AI
19:58 < fenn> don't touch it, it's covered in nanites
19:58 < kanzure> fuck!
19:58 < kanzure> that wasn't mentioned on the "customs" sticker on the back
19:59 < kanzure> maybe this connects to a super secret internet
19:59 < kanzure> OR just infects the fuck out of my machines
19:59 < genehacker> well at least it isn't a whole new see through laptop, loaded with malware and a secret message
20:00 < genehacker> or maybe it's the CIA and they're onto us
20:00 < kanzure> hi CIA-55 
20:00 < fenn> at least you arent vietnamese and your official keyboard driver is a keylogger that reports to the government
20:00 < genehacker> does that happen in vietnam?
20:01 < fenn> hm i figured that story would be easier to find
20:02 < genehacker> also my reference was the Hackers movie
20:04 < fenn> hm there are lots of stupid camera tricks but it isnt that hard to make a transparent laptop screen, just remove the backlight
20:04 < drazak> anyone in here ever run a mackie 1604?
20:05 < genehacker> no gameboy transparent
20:07 < bkero> kanzure: I have a Nexus One
20:07 < kanzure> i opted to buy a backflip
20:08 < bkero> Oh, a nanonote.  It's on order.
20:08 < kanzure> why did you get one
20:08 < kanzure> a nanonote, i mean
20:08 < bkero> hardware work
20:08 < kanzure> wut?
20:08 < fenn> yay for websites that crash my browser
20:08 < kanzure> yay for non-exclusive sets
20:09  * kanzure puts the hit on galois
21:05 < jrayhawk> I also have an n810 lying around that I don't use if you want the world's baddest-ass PDA.
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21:17  * fenn mutters about trains
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23:12 < genehacker> so I heard somewhere from my old physics teacher(not a very good one...) that the reason our eyes start hurting after staring at computer screen for a long time is that they heat up
23:14 < genehacker> oh hell I know radiation heat transfer, I should be solving this...
23:16 < JayDugger> Why? That's pretty obviously wrong.
23:18 < JayDugger> As for kanzure's phone, that has a nicer camera than the original Droid. I don't know whether I'd take the trade-off for no keyboard.
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