--- Day changed Sun May 23 2010
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00:28 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
00:36 < JayDugger> Have I missed a discussion of Venter's "synthetic life" announcement?
00:47 < Utopiah> :\
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00:54 < Utopiah> JayDugger: don't worry, there is the log of the channel.
00:54 < JayDugger> Ah.
00:54 < JayDugger> That would mean "Yes, you did it miss the discussion," I think.
00:56 < Utopiah> correct
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01:04 < neobii> it's been going on for 3 days
01:17 < JayDugger> Conclusions?
01:17 < JayDugger> Major viewpoints?
01:17 < JayDugger> Flame?
01:17 < Utopiah> 2012.
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01:28 < JayDugger> 2012 for what? End of the Drug War, as Some argue; Collapse of OPEC when Venter and Exxon get algae ponds to crap out gasoline; End of Archer-Daniels-Midland when we'll all eat ultra-spirulina & super-chorella from backyard ponds?
01:28 < JayDugger> And what's the URL for the log? :)
01:28 < klafka> JayDugger, it's a whole lot of fucking hype
01:29 < JayDugger> Ahh...much better.
01:29 < klafka> for something that has some interesting technical challenges but isn't the revolution that people are making it
01:29 < JayDugger> Thanks, that answers my main question.
01:29 < klafka> it's not synthetic life, it's the establishment of techniques to synthesize a long contiguous strand of DNA taht we can inject into an existing cell
01:30 < JayDugger> Yes, I got that from the AAAS podcast.
01:32 < klafka> what's the AAAS?
01:32 < Utopiah> http://www.aaas.org/
01:33 < klafka> aah
01:40 < Utopiah> (Powerslide Into Parking Spot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY93kr8PaC4 Stanford)
02:00 < Utopiah> (Andrew Hessel - The Internet of Living Things http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S23owdOuLjc momo Amsterdam April 2010)
03:23 < Utopiah> ( http://fora.tv/live/maker_faire/Maker_Faire_2010 (live 11:00 AM PDT))
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09:12 < kanzure> "the internet of living things" ha, ha
09:12 < kanzure> i should hit him for that
09:12 < kanzure> he's in town in 2 days from now
09:49 < Utopiah> http://linux06.dnspropio.com/~fusionvic/ diy reactor for fusion energy production
10:00 < wilywonka> lol yah
10:00 < wilywonka> like anyone has diy'd that
10:02 < wilywonka> just the tube with grooves alone would be super difficult
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10:42 < Utopiah> don't remember who asked about protocols last time but there is in addition to Springer website http://www.currentprotocols.com/ (with a package on bitme.org )
10:50 < Utopiah> (sidenote : I gathered those and few others at http://fabien.benetou.fr/ReadingNotes/ElegantSolutions#ExperimentsTools )
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11:05 < thesnark> kanzure you there?
11:15 < kanzure> sort of
12:01 < Utopiah> http://www.deshawresearch.com/computational biochemistry under the direct scientific leadership of David Shaw
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12:16 < klafka>  A former faculty member in the computer science department at Columbia University, Shaw made his fortune exploiting inefficiencies in financial markets with the help of sophisticated computer models. 
12:16 < klafka> weird
12:17 < Utopiah> arbitrage
12:18 < klafka> yeah
12:40 < kanzure> etacts.com is hiring
12:40 < kanzure> fenn: they are in the palo alto area. you should show up and show off your data.
12:40 < kanzure> they are python mongers, too
12:50 < wilywonka> what does he do with python?
12:50 < kanzure> etacts.com? well it's a website
12:50 < wilywonka> no fenn or whoever
12:50 < kanzure> and they claim they're using django
12:50 < kanzure> uh i don't know how to answer that
12:51 < kanzure> stuff, ok?
12:51 < wilywonka> i was under the impression not many ppl here did bioinformatics type stuff
12:51 < wilywonka> lol
12:51 < kanzure> half of us do
12:51  * kanzure me
12:51  * Utopiah kinda uses etacts too
12:51 < wilywonka> well have you ever tried compiling popular genefinders
12:51 < kanzure> Utopiah: i stopped using it pretty much immediately
12:52 < kanzure> but their heart is in the right place i guess
12:52 < wilywonka> like I find genefinders pretty interesting but i guess maybe they're useless cos there hasn't been loads of improvement since say 2005 or so
12:52 < Utopiah> yep
12:52 < wilywonka> like i think on the human genome they're largely irrevelant cos there are at least enough researchers to annotate every gene
12:53 < kanzure> updated: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/meetlog.txt
12:55 < wilywonka> so are you running for president
12:56  * Utopiah have a wiki page on that :-#
12:56 < wilywonka> i mean that's pretty interesting but also can you really usefully know 1,000s of people
13:12 < Utopiah> (Project SOAP http://project-soap.eu/ Study of Open Access Publishing )
13:14 < wilywonka> umm why would you name it soap
13:14 < wilywonka> they're been a few articles about that in nature recently
13:15 < wilywonka> the main problem that was brought up
13:15 < wilywonka> was that quality of reviews would suffer
13:15 < wilywonka> and at the current rates of publication reviews are essential
13:15 < wilywonka> there are no ways you could read everything
13:16 < wilywonka> and often invited reviews are written by people more respected in their field than the average original research paper
13:16 < Utopiah> (looks like a nice blog http://www.academicproductivity.com/ overall)
13:19 < wilywonka> seeing how they named that soap though makes me wonder how often academics keyword stuff, i often read papers where it seems like that is what is going on as they say something 5 ways and it doesn't seem like a concept that needs to be drilled into your head
13:20 < wilywonka> i mean that almost seems like a form of keyword stuffing naming your project after a search term that gets tons of searches
13:20 < Utopiah> I think at the European research program level they dont care, they make acronyms and they make the norm.
13:20 < Utopiah> it's a gigantic adminstrative machine
13:20 < wilywonka> yeah that's probably true but still a horrible acronym could've thought of a better one easily or just not made it an acronym
13:21 < Utopiah> they make acronyms for nearly every project and I suppose they actually have a tool for that
13:21 < Utopiah> at least a process
13:22 < Utopiah> they're not here for the marketing ;)
13:22 < Utopiah> I mean it's anything but an agile startup
13:25 < wilywonka> but anyway on the other hand it does seem odd that research funded by taxpaper money eventually culminates in a peer reviewed journal that i'm sure only an infinitesimal portion of the taxpayers have access to, so in that regard obviously open access could be  the only way of the future, i guess its just about how do you get there from here
13:27 < klafka> i di bioinformatic stuff!
13:27 < klafka>  i think open access is the way forward atm
13:27 < wilywonka> what do you say about the point of reviews though
13:27 < wilywonka> for instance nature reviews series are great website is great just plain great
13:27 < klafka> it is
13:28 < klafka> but I don't see why you can't have an OA review journal
13:28 < wilywonka> bioessays is pretty good but way harder to use
13:28 < wilywonka> well its mainly that there isn't a financial incentive to do reviews i'm sure
13:28 < wilywonka> and also reviews need to be invited
13:28 < wilywonka> instead of anyone do them
13:28 < wilywonka> if anyone did them they'd sorta be like bioinformatics is now
13:28 < klafka> so the main problem si that people won't pay to submit a review
13:29 < wilywonka> where any who wants to just chunks out some probably useless information
13:29 < wilywonka> no no some people definitely would
13:29 < Utopiah> know the price of http://www.plosbiology.org/ ?
13:29 < klafka> but they wouldn't be invited so the quality would suffer
13:29 < wilywonka> its about 3500 i think
13:29 < klafka> per page?
13:29 < wilywonka> not sure
13:29 < Utopiah> not really one of the cheapest to publish in
13:30 < klafka> granting agencies particularly the NIH expect you to build OA journal publication into your budgets though
13:30 < klafka> iirc
13:30 < wilywonka> anyway people would pay to write reviews
13:30 < wilywonka> i have no doubt of that
13:30 < wilywonka> i mean publish or perish
13:30 < klafka> yeah but reviews count for nothing
13:30 < klafka> in terms of publications
13:30 < wilywonka> ppl would write reviews cos in ways it might be easier
13:30 < wilywonka> is that really the case i thought impact factor was everything
13:30 < klafka> i think the two ways to avoid the issue, setup a respectable, moderated wiki
13:31 < wilywonka> and often reviews can have a high impact factor
13:31 < klafka> wilywonka, reviews have no impact
13:31 < klafka> at least that's what everyone tells me
13:31 < wilywonka> oh ok well i only have access to scopus anyway
13:31 < klafka> most of them are "written" by well known people, but they are actually written by their grad students
13:31 < wilywonka> don't have wok or whatever its called now
13:32 < klafka> i don't have either of those, just everyone tells me that no one cares about seeing what review papers you've written
13:32 < klafka> my program director, my advisors, anyone i've talked to
13:32 < wilywonka> well i often see them as the highest cited papers
13:32 < wilywonka> so that's where i was drawing from
13:32 < klafka> right but they aren't original works
13:32 < klafka> ah
13:33 < wilywonka> seems like you're probably right but it might be a biology only phenomena
13:33 < klafka> i think you could get around a lot by establishing a fund for the publication of OA reviews that would invite people, or I thin really the way to move forward is to abandon the journal model altogether
13:33 < klafka> and go to a "wiki-like" model
13:33 < wilywonka> i mean i'd assume in more theoretical fields the line between review and original gets more blurred
13:33 < klafka> yeah
13:34 < wilywonka> also one of the best things about reviews is they often have graphics that are understandable
13:34 < wilywonka> often in a good review you could look at just the figures and captions and understand most of the points
13:34 < klafka> well it's sort of weird, like i'm in boht biology and CS (my 1 advisor is more biology, my other is machine learning) and like reviews/technical reports seem to be done by the best 
13:35 < wilywonka> i'm pretty sure nature for instance has no problem hiring ppl to make the graphics
13:35 < wilywonka> as they figure some of them they'll reuse in a textbook
13:35 < klafka> but they dn't count for anything because by the time you do big reviews you're already established
13:36 < klafka> i wasnt aware that nature actually made any graphics for the reviews
13:36 < wilywonka> well i'm assuming that
13:36 < wilywonka> but they're all the same color scheme etc
13:36 < wilywonka> in almost all the reviews
13:36 < klafka> idk well we can check
13:36 < wilywonka> and i figured since owned by macmillan
13:37 < wilywonka> maybe that's assuming they're more efficient than they really are though
13:38 < klafka> my school doesn't have nature review genetics and it's incredibly irritating
13:38 < klafka> i  must say
13:38 < wilywonka> you can't get it through the proxy at all
13:38 < wilywonka> ezproxy
13:39 < klafka> ah  you are in fact correct wilywonka 
13:39 < klafka> ? Artwork. The figures in the Nature Reviews journals are all constructed (or redrawn) in house, in consultation with the author. Authors are encouraged to send rough drafts of figures early in the writing process.
13:39 < wilywonka> yeah so my assumption was they have financial incentive to do good work there
13:39 < wilywonka> cos they will reuse it in a textbook
13:40 < wilywonka> and that makes sense and also explains how they can consistently be good quality which they are (although sometimes they do not make any sense ..... like a textbook)
13:40 < klafka> heh true
13:41 < wilywonka> so like for instance for the diy ppl
13:41 < wilywonka> they have limited resources just as everyone does
13:41 < wilywonka> probably even less than someone in the field
13:42 < wilywonka> so to maximize their time they would probably rather read a review (as say their main source of information on their subject of interest)
13:42 < wilywonka> so an open access review would probably do way more good than just open access research articles
13:43 < wilywonka> i mean most people who are in the field (excluding corporate work) already have access
13:43 < wilywonka> i mean i guess pnas is just what i'm argueing for
13:43 < kanzure> wilywonka: i have some software for "really usefully knowing" 1,000s of people
13:44 < wilywonka> kanzure: yeah i was noticing on your site
13:45 < wilywonka> klafka: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/recent i mean them open accessing some articles there is pretty useful as pnas articles aren't always necessarily reviews but often are in the spirit of a review in ways
13:45 < wilywonka> but they only do a few articles oa
13:46 < klafka> yeah i think their OA articles are submitters choice
13:46 < wilywonka> but unlike a science paper
13:46 < wilywonka> the average intelligent person could understand a pnas article
13:51 < wilywonka> so what kind of bioinformatics stuff do you do
13:51 < wilywonka> i was looking at gene finders and well i think that's a bit over my head
13:52 < wilywonka> but i do find it crazy that we really can't predict all eukaryotic genes and further that we can't accurately predict all the splice sites
13:52 < klafka> i am interesting in learning biological networks
13:52 < wilywonka> and then we have to rely on est sequencing to really tell which parts are genes
13:52 < wilywonka> as in systematics type work
13:52 < Utopiah> (gene finders like http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene ?)
13:52 < klafka> yeah
13:53 < wilywonka> as in you have a new sequenced genome
13:53 < klafka> improving graphical models of regulatory networks from heterogenous data types
13:53 < wilywonka> denovo sequenced genome
13:53 < wilywonka> and you want to predict all the genes that exist in that genome
13:53 < klafka> yeah
13:53 < wilywonka> and want high accuracy
13:54 < klafka> they do that a lot w/ metabolic network reconstruction tools
13:54 < wilywonka> for instance in the human genome this isn't super relevant
13:54 < klafka> like pathway finder
13:54 < wilywonka> because there are literally thousands of researchers
13:54 < wilywonka> maybe enough to ensure that stochiastically one is "likely" to investigate every known est
13:54 < klafka> well a lot of the human genome is largely mapped out
13:55 < wilywonka> what do you mean heterogenous data types
13:55 < wilywonka> as in heterogenous alleles/genes/haplotypes
13:55 < klafka> like most regulatory network models use gene expression data like microarrays or RNA-seq
13:56 < wilywonka> oh ok so intergrating different types of data
13:56 < klafka> but because the # of samples needed to lower variance is cost prohibitive you need to integrate in other data types
13:56 < klafka> PPI, metabolic networks, genotype data, etc...
13:57 < wilywonka> that sounds like a pretty complex system
13:57 < klafka> well you sort of abstract the complexity out of it
13:58 < klafka> like so instead of being a complex weird simulation, necessarily, you use this existant data to say regularize your model
13:58 < wilywonka> how tissue dependent can the models be
13:58 < klafka> basically we have a large corpus of data available to us that is not designed for our uses, but we can make it
13:58 < klafka> at this moment there are very few people acting on anything other than prokaryotes or yeast
13:59 < klafka> because the answer is, each tissue (and cell type) is going to have sort of custom regulatory networks based on stuff like chromatin structure, methylation, etc...
13:59 < wilywonka> yeah
14:00  * Utopiah doesn't know a lot on that topic but isn't afraid of asking silly questions
14:00 < wilywonka> for instance i imagine a world where we basically have a computer emulator of the basic genetic rules as they evolved in divergent lineages that you could say insert a genome sequence and basically know alot about what that organism looked like
14:00 < klafka> go for it
14:00 < Utopiah> regarding gene finders, are they using phylogenetic tree to limit the search space and optimize queries?
14:00 < wilywonka> some do
14:00 < wilywonka> some can only find one intron
14:01 < wilywonka> some can find multiple
14:01 < wilywonka> but see phylogenetic trees aren't necessarily a good answer
14:01 < klafka> willywonka well i think what will happen iis sequencing will get so cheap and automated we actually wil lbeable to get the amount of high throughput data we actually need
14:01 < wilywonka> like in yeast
14:01 < wilywonka> there is a divergent clade that uses a different codon set
14:02 < wilywonka> and so that might be an easy case to realize hey our model is wrong, but still it can't account for that just in the finder itself
14:02 < wilywonka> well yeah i mean obviously the next step in regulatory networks will be you
14:02 < wilywonka> you'll get a paired dataset of est from various tissues along with full genome
14:03 < Utopiah> out of curiosity, did any of you subscribed to 23andMe and why?
14:03 < wilywonka> nah i didn't
14:03 < Utopiah> too low resolution?
14:03 < Utopiah> privacy?
14:03 < wilywonka> heh privacy
14:03 < wilywonka> aren't they familialy owned by google basically
14:03 < klafka> sort of
14:03 < wilywonka> founders wife owns 23andme
14:04 < klafka> i actually saw a tlak aby an engineer of 23andme
14:04 < wilywonka> forget which one but yah
14:04 < klafka> and one of the co-founders of it
14:04 < klafka> what really turned me off is that they said they are likely to patent any important genes they find
14:04 < wilywonka> everyone does that
14:04 < wilywonka> i mean craig venter tried patenting like 200 or something in his project
14:04 < klafka> academic institutions do not
14:04 < klafka> craig venter's kind of a jerk too :P
14:05 < Utopiah> wasn't that kicked out few weeks ago in the US by the patent office?
14:05 < klafka> well it was overturned in a lower court
14:05 < klafka> but i'm sure it'll go to the supreme court
14:05 < wilywonka> not sure
14:05 < wilywonka> i liked michael creighton's views on it
14:05 < wilywonka> he had that fiction book on the subject
14:06 < klafka> anyway i better go tkae a shower bbl
14:06 < wilywonka> and some good essays in the appendix like section
14:06 < Utopiah> (somebody in the channel was stinky and didn't do anything about it...)
14:06 < Utopiah> http://www.crichton-official.com/ ?
14:07 < wilywonka> yeah so i guess his last book?
14:08 < wilywonka> let me find you that list of gene finders i had
14:09 < Utopiah> the last related books I read on that was probably The Biotech Century - Jeremy Rifkin ... a decade ago
14:14 < wilywonka> http://geneprediction.org/
14:14 < wilywonka> anyway some of those might take you all day to compile if you could at all
14:15 < wilywonka> some require programs you have to email to get access to ( i assume so you cite them)
14:15 < Utopiah> CiteWare ;)
14:15 < wilywonka> haha
14:16 < wilywonka> anyway like the frog genome just published in science they used just 2
14:16 < kanzure> Hmm wait a second
14:16 < kanzure> i thought cody marx bailey claimed he invented hashtags?
14:16 < kanzure> another guy is claiming the same thing here:
14:16 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/events/io/2010/speakers.html
14:16 < kanzure> chris messina: "Chris got his start in 2004 by leading community marketing through the launch of Firefox. He is a board member of the OpenID and Open Web Foundations and plays an instrumental role in advancing OAuth and safer online computing. In 2008, Chris received the Google Open Source Award recognizing his community work on initiatives like microformats. He also co-founded the coworking and BarCamp communities and introduced hashtags on 
14:19 < wilywonka> anyway the thing that makes gene prediction more interesting is that you could use it to predict genes that are alternatively spliced or maybe to recognize variants that have a higher probability to be alternatively spliced
14:20 < wilywonka> in eukaryotes we've constantly learned that there are lots of places where even a synonymous mutation can drastically change how it is expressed
14:25 < klafka> also i have a feeling de novo assembly and gene prediction when 3rd gen sequencers become popular will get a lot easier
14:25 < wilywonka> why would it
14:25 < klafka> because they have really really long read lengths
14:25 < wilywonka> oh is that what 3rd generation is ha
14:26 < klafka> like atm pac bio has avg read lengths of like 1000-1200~ with max of ~20,000
14:26 < wilywonka> i thought some were supposed to be even lower
14:26 < klafka> i suppose it depends on the 3rd gene sequencer
14:26 < klafka> 3rd gen at this point means "single molecule sequencing"
14:26 < klafka> pretty much
14:26 < wilywonka> i think some ppl consider their technology 3rd gen cos of thoroughput 
14:26 < wilywonka> but yeah long reads would help tons
14:27 < klafka> yeah the terms are nebulous and ill-defined
14:27 < klafka> but like for instance illumina's Hi-Seq isn't 3rd gen by most people's standards
14:27 < klafka> though it's really fast
14:27 < wilywonka> in some areas it could just be you can't predict the gene cos of the sequencing errors
14:27 < wilywonka> or other sequencing errors in other places messing up the model
14:28 < wilywonka> i'd consider that a top priority though i mean how can you engineer a genome when you don't even really know what sequences will code
14:29 < wilywonka> i mean with the ghmm's you don't really know all the features that will do something but if you could distill the hidden model into a thought out and rationale model you might know something
14:32 < wilywonka> did you see the alternative splicing paper in this month's nature
14:32 < wilywonka> well in a nature this month
14:35 < wilywonka> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7294/full/nature09000.html
14:36 < wilywonka> http://genes.toronto.edu/wasp/ 
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14:51 < Utopiah> (regarding SPOF http://www.neustar.biz/ seems like a good target)
14:51 < Utopiah> (according to http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/06/the-enemy-within/8098/ at least)
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15:40 < Utopiah> (regarding earlier mention on 23andMe http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0406/01.html )
15:41 < Utopiah> (and http://www.personalgenomes.org/ )
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15:46 < QuantumG> someone asked me what a transhumanist is last night
15:46 < wilywonka> james watsons' ghostwritten book had a good section on it
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15:47 < wilywonka> he compared the 3 or 4 companies that do that personal genomics
15:47 < QuantumG> I said "someone who recognizes the human condition can be improved and works to achieve that goal for themselves."
15:48 < QuantumG> and this morning I found this video  http://vimeo.com/8977365   pretty neat little documentary
16:03 < wilywonka> on http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0406/01.html i like that graphic ha
16:04 < wilywonka> on the edge.org talk someone mentioned that sydney brenner was "reading" the human genome 
16:04 < wilywonka> and craig venter was like well good luck with that it would take you about x ridiculous amount of years
16:05 < wilywonka> i guess 9.5
16:09 < QuantumG> "Thousands of people are signing up to post their DNA sequences on the Internet, for all to see. Are they crazy?"    That basically sums up the moronic level of public discourse on genomics
16:11 < bkero> I've got some A's, G's, T's, and C's, should I put them on the internet?
16:11 < kanzure> i have a few clients who are super super shady about privacy and genomics
16:11 < kanzure> like, they pay extra for it to be kept private
16:11 < kanzure> shipping fucking genomes in fucking granite boxes
16:11 < kanzure> god damn it
16:12 < kanzure> (can you tell i am upset?)
16:12 < Utopiah> (now yes)
16:12 < QuantumG> no, tell us what you really feel
16:17 < QuantumG> every time I hear people talk about the 3 billion bps in a human genome I imagine what it would be like if I counted the number of characters in my work's source code and referred to that repeatedly
16:18 < QuantumG> I can get to 3 billion pretty damn quickly.
16:22 < kanzure> i should just hire someone to follow those guys around with cotton swabs
16:22 < kanzure> and steal dna from trash.
16:22 < kanzure> "put *that* in a granite box."
16:23 < QuantumG> immaculate workspace indeed
16:27 < klafka> QuantumG, is that about personalgenome ?
16:27 < QuantumG> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0406/01.html is
16:27 < QuantumG> http://vimeo.com/8977365 is about the blue brain project
16:28 < kanzure> klafka: have you heard of the blue brain project?
16:28 < klafka> yep
16:28 < QuantumG> btw, are they still saying about 20,000 genes in the human genome?   To me, that sounds like about the same as a class list in software.
16:28 < klafka> what's a gene?
16:28 < kanzure> says the bioinformatician :)
16:29 < QuantumG> their definition is probably something like, a unique reading between a start and a stop codon, multiplied by alternate splicings.
16:29 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/chats/bioinformatics.txt
16:30 < Utopiah> klafka: it's like a meme in biology ;)
16:30 < klafka> lol
16:31 < klafka> thanks Utopiah 
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16:31 < Utopiah> np, Im sure it helps a lot
16:31 < klafka> speaking of this, you guys wanna see my company logo ? since this is #hplus http://imgur.com/oDyER
16:31 < klafka> it's fitting
16:31 < kanzure> what company
16:31 < klafka> it's a music promotion company
16:32 < kanzure> i really like this diybio promo poster: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/images/diybio_promo.png
16:33 < klafka> hahah
16:33 < klafka> yeah i liek that too
16:33 < wilywonka> @ quantumG 3 billion bp...... but do you have an obfuscated perl script that is 3 billion chars long?
16:33 < wilywonka> if so i'd be impressed
16:33 < kanzure> i wouldn't be :(
16:34 < kanzure> perl is naturally obfuscated
16:34 < wilywonka> yeah but it'd be like a 1gb + one line perl script
16:34 < QuantumG> I've been pulling my hair out over doing security analysis of php.. if they give me perl to do next I quit
16:34 < kanzure> "security analysis" of php
16:34 < kanzure> heh
16:34 < QuantumG> yeah I know, just say "dude, you're using php" and flag it as critical
16:35 < kanzure> i like my broken window theory of php
16:35 < kanzure> well, it wasn't mine before
16:35 < kanzure> but i've adopted it now :)
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16:38 < QuantumG> btw http://www.xkcd.com/743/
16:38 < QuantumG> fucking gold
16:40 < parolang> QuantumG: You gonna quit facebook on 5-31?
16:40 < klafka> haha
16:40 < kanzure> 5/31 is a quit date for facebook?
16:40 < QuantumG> parolang: not on facebook
16:40 < parolang> kanzure: yeah
16:40 < kanzure> parolang: link?
16:40 < QuantumG> for the reasons outlined in the comic no less :)
16:41 < parolang> http://www.quitfacebookday.com/
16:41 < QuantumG> that, and, well, it's "social networking" not "anti-social networking"
16:41 < kanzure> hah
16:41 < kanzure> QuantumG: i think there's an anti social networking website
16:42 < QuantumG> yeah, it's called Slashdot
16:43 < kanzure> it's called irc
16:43 < kanzure> now get off my bits
16:44  * parolang wonders if people even know about IRC anymore.
16:45 < kanzure> quitfacebookday.com should get on kickstarter to raise funds to advertize on facebook about quitting facebook
16:45 < QuantumG> nice
16:45 < kanzure> since it's in the interest of people with money to have them get off facebook
16:47 < parolang> I've been thinking about quitting facebook for some time now, I'll decide by 5-31 :)
16:47 < parolang> But then, I haven't been on it very long.
16:47 < parolang> QuantumG should join Facebook in order to quit on quit facebook day.
16:48 < kanzure> i wonder if i can delete my dad's account on facebook
16:48 < kanzure> it's kind of sad. he signed up the day before he died
16:48 < kanzure> so i'm his only friend :/
16:48 < parolang> :(
16:48 < Utopiah> :|
16:49 < Utopiah> saddest thing Ive heard today, guess I can't go to sleep just now...
16:49  * parolang wonders how many deceased users are on facebook.
16:49 < kanzure> it probably matches the national death rate or average death rate for the world over
16:50 < kanzure> adjusted for the average facebook user age range (40 to 50?)
16:50 < Utopiah> kanzure: my 2cents, delete both and move on.
16:50 < parolang> I'd think that the facebook crowd probably leans a bit younger than that.
16:51 < parolang> Probably mostly people who were in college when facebook became popular.
16:51 < kanzure> i have a friend with a ridiculously low id number (4 digits) 
16:51 < kanzure> and i investigated one time
16:52 < kanzure> and it turns out he went to harvard
16:52 < kanzure> soo that would explain it
16:52  * parolang has a five digit slashdot id :)
16:52 < wilywonka> i have a myspace with 3 digits
16:52 < wilywonka> i got it from an exploit though
16:52 < parolang> Heh, I never gave myspace the time of day.
16:53 < parolang> Slashdot is weird...I rarely post, and when I do I usually get mod points the following day or two.
16:53 < wilywonka> i used to have the aim texas before it got suspended
16:54 < parolang> I just go through and mod QuantumG's posts and call it a day.
16:54 < kanzure> yeah who is that QuantumG guy anyway
16:54 < kanzure> >_<
16:56 < parolang> :)
16:57 < parolang> Wow...Pandora is being released finally :)
16:57  * parolang will stop reading slashdot headlines.
16:58 < klafka> which pandora?
16:58 < parolang> The game console
16:58 < kanzure> about time.
16:59 < parolang> no kidding, I thought it was vaporware
17:01 < QuantumG> parolang: up or down? :)
17:05 < parolang> QuantumG: Which direction have your posts been modded lately?
17:06 < QuantumG> up, today
17:06 < parolang> Well, what about yesterday?
17:06 < kanzure> http://moanmyip.com/ yess
17:07 < kanzure> (NSFW)
17:07 < parolang> Actually, I kid.  I don't actually use mod points very much :)
17:07 < parolang> Slashdot has been lame for a while now, but I keep going there.  I should spend more time on lwn.net, buy a subscription, etc.
17:08 < kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/best can be ok at times
17:09 < kanzure> but it's a hype gravy train :/
17:09 < parolang> I feel like I shouldn't be there because I don't have a startup :)
17:10 < kanzure> tell that to everyone else there
17:11 < parolang> heh
17:16 < wilywonka> i think i like reddit best esp the slower moving views
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17:16 < wilywonka> i feel like i actually read neat stuff instead of waste time on reddit
17:16 < wilywonka> i mean i guess they're the same thing but not completley
17:17 < parolang> reddit has it's virtues
17:18 < wilywonka> yeah its pretty good just avoid all or wtf if you don't wanta waste tons of time
17:19 < parolang> But, you know, as far as content these sites aren't too different (lwn I think does higher quality there), usually the hype feeds all of them.  The difference is mainly the users.  That's what made slashdot cool back when it was cool, you had people who knew what they were talking about commenting in the threas.  Today, I end up facepalming too much :)
17:21 < kanzure> some say metafilter is still worth your time
17:25 < parolang> You know, a good news aggregater is any mailing list kanzure happens to be on :)
17:27 < wilywonka> lol
17:27 < wilywonka> oh man i used to read bloglines
17:27 < wilywonka> well used to use it to read feeds
17:28 < wilywonka> but realized that was a waste of time
17:28 < wilywonka> even ppl i honestly like their blogs are well tl;dr
17:28 < klafka> lol
17:29 < klafka> parolang, lol kanzure are you on extropy?
17:29 < parolang> yeah, and om
17:42 < kanzure> well i'm glad at least one person is getting something out of my emails
17:44 < parolang> I'm sure lots of people are; you're basically doing what hacker news and reddit do on a smaller scale.
17:45 < kanzure> i was really surprised when nobody replied to the email about the defensive patent license idea
17:47 < parolang> Well, I don't usually post at all, and don't check all the mailing lists regularly.
17:49 < kanzure> i hate how people keep making new mailing lists :(
17:51 < parolang> Hmm...there might be a technical reason for that though.
17:53 < parolang> Just in the sense that it's easy to create a new ML or delete and existing ML; but the operations of splitting a ML into two, or combining two MLs into one, are missing or difficult (or go against conventional rules of etiquette).
17:53 < wilywonka> lol
17:54 < wilywonka> that is true but that is probably a very altruistic reason for why they create new ones
17:54 < parolang> principle of charity :)
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17:57 < QuantumG> the principle of charity is one that I'd love to be on the Arguing On The Internet License, should they ever introduce one
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18:28 < wilywonka> from reddit: Every time I see Pearson, et al. cited in a paper after the first mention of the word FASTA, I think of a real smug old man who smokes his pipe and thinks, "Using a greater-than sign to indicate metadata for a sequence... that was me."
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19:37 < parolang> http://www.insidefacebook.com/2009/02/02/fastest-growing-demographic-on-facebook-women-over-55/
19:37 < parolang> Demographic information about facebook...we were talking about it briefly earlier.
19:50 < wilywonka> lol http://www.splicethefilm.com/
19:50 < wilywonka> i'm sure that's gonna make the crazies even crazier
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20:49 < wilywonka> also i kinda wonder about facebook demographics
20:49 < wilywonka> cos once it got big ppl but way more efforts into making bots
20:49 < wilywonka> and the majority of bots are likely to be women 
20:50 < wilywonka> i mean maybe someone did rand(0,100) on age but regardless i'd take info like that with a grain of salt unless you knew exactly how well it was filtered 
21:46 < kanzure> eyewriter from techcrunch disrupt for playing mario :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMNtrLcbCNk
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22:54 < fenn> ug.
23:02 < kanzure> fenn: the rest of the iphone team wants me to start coming in to work
23:03 < kanzure> :/
23:03 < kanzure> for programming
23:09 < kanzure> what's your opinion? do i do better coding in person or over the net
23:41 < fenn> my opinion is that you should go in to make them happy
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