--- Day changed Tue Jun 15 2010 00:42 < Ian_Daniher> kanzure: here now; pm me with whatever you wanted to talk about, it's a good way to reach me. 01:10 -!- splicer [~foo@92.39.2.126] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:14 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00 -!- shepazu [~schepers@host81-159-250-143.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Core Breach] 02:15 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:20 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:21 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:31 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:32 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:32 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:33 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@116.24.218.187] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:01 < nsh> how did you get burnt, Ian_Daniher? 03:33 -!- 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JayDugger> Good morning, everyone. 06:09 < kanzure> hi 06:11 < JayDugger> `sudo skdb make-me -a --with-killer-robots underground_fortress` still returns non-zero, kanzure. 06:12 < kanzure> i had a dream that tim marzullo told me that spikerbox was not open source 06:13 < kanzure> (it was a nightmare) 06:13 < kanzure> JayDugger: that's because there's no underground-fortress package 06:13 < JayDugger> Aw, man...back to digging by hand. 06:14 < cluckj> haha 06:15 < JayDugger> Well, at least that's not some hackneyed nightmare about falling or the like. 06:40 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 06:58 * kanzure watched himself on http://www.livestream.com/humanityplus/video?clipId=pla_5275e0b2-fcae-46f5-8bc4-4c3148d510ba 06:58 < kanzure> i'll have to extract out the video 06:58 < kanzure> at about 48min 06:59 -!- parolang [~user@64.246.121.114] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:00 -!- splicer [~foo@92.39.2.126] has quit [] 07:06 -!- uniqanomaly__ 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#hplusroadmap 08:19 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:21 < Utopiah> hmmm is there a website listing the interesting (according to people in #hplusroadmap ) talks/conferences/workshop happening in SecondLife? NASA CoLab made me wonder 08:23 < Yocttar> kanzure: got some link to that micro fluids dna synthesis? 08:28 < kanzure> Yocttar: http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/ 08:28 < kanzure> Utopiah: there's one coming up in a week.. jessica mullen recommended it and wants me to do transcripts 08:28 < kanzure> it's really disturbing how people are impressed by the ability to type 08:29 < kanzure> ha at design: https://foswiki.sonologic.nl/RevelationSpace/MeterStanden 08:31 -!- wrldpc2 [~benny@pool-71-174-251-169.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wrldpc2] 08:36 -!- wrldpc2 [~benny@pool-71-174-251-169.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:41 < Yocttar> ty kanzure 08:45 < Ian_Daniher> nsh: yt? 08:49 < kanzure> Utopiah: i'll get the name of the conference in a while 08:49 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:49 < Utopiah> thanks 08:56 < JayDugger> Touch-typing...it made all those years of piano lessons worthwhiel. 08:56 < JayDugger> Crap. That would've been witty, save for the misspelling. 08:57 -!- genehacker [genehacker@wireless-128-62-101-152.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:57 < JayDugger> kanzure: Will there be a teleconference/chat for DIY happenings/progress and journal club this week? 09:02 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Phreedom 09:03 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Phreedom 09:04 -!- genehacker [genehacker@wireless-128-62-101-152.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:10 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone. 09:11 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-76-197.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:13 < kanzure> http://cyberneticsynthesis.com/ 09:13 < kanzure> JayDugger: yes 09:13 < kanzure> some weird stuff going on here: http://www.atypicalart.com/ 09:16 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:17 < kanzure> http://prostheticknowledge.tumblr.com/post/695241910/cockroach-pimps-a-sweet-ride-via-hack-a-day 09:18 < kanzure> http://www.gadgetrepair.info/article/sxsw+bug+labs+says+content+will+drive+open+source+hardware.html (nothing new) 09:22 < kanzure> http://www.motherboard.tv/2010/6/10/h-summit-sneak-preview 09:22 < kanzure> diy liquid nitrogen generator http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1414028 (same one from the other day) 09:22 < kanzure> "kickstart my pcr!" http://maradydd.livejournal.com/513904.html 09:42 < kanzure> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1686254&cid=32576474 just for idle reading 09:46 -!- wrldpc2 [~benny@pool-71-174-251-169.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wrldpc2] 10:14 -!- r1776 [~LOL@li48-79.members.linode.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:20 -!- r1777 [~LOL@li48-79.members.linode.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:20 -!- r1776 [~LOL@li48-79.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:30 < Utopiah> are there initiatives on nootropics not relying on BigPharma? 10:35 -!- ybit [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:36 -!- ybit [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39 -!- ybit [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:39 -!- ybit [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43 -!- ybit [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:45 < Utopiah> (cgecking http://ginkgobioworks.com/ ) 10:50 < Utopiah> (they are looking for a "DNA Padawan" ;) 10:56 -!- LilxHK [~LilxHK@c906548b.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:04 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:21 < kanzure> various comments: http://www.metafilter.com/92820/The-Real-Science-Gap-Jobs 11:21 < kanzure> hi LilxHK 11:25 -!- LilxHK [~LilxHK@c906548b.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:41 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:41 -!- Redeemer [~lorddeeme@c-75-72-218-226.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:41 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:49 -!- strages [~strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:51 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:51 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:57 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:58 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:58 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59 -!- kristianpaul [~kristianp@190.7.138.180] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:17 -!- LilxHK [~LilxHK@c906548b.virtua.com.br] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:23 -!- dustbin [~chatzilla@adsl-71-145-162-129.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24 -!- dustbin [~chatzilla@adsl-71-145-162-129.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:34 -!- LilxHK [~LilxHK@c906548b.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:47 -!- pmetzger [~perry@69.86.203.77] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:52 < kanzure> hi pmetzger 12:52 < kanzure> just got your email.. i was busy messing around with rmtp from livestream.com 12:53 < kanzure> the videos are hour long segments and i'm trying to clean up the data 12:53 < kanzure> (from the summit) 12:59 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:02 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:02 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:03 -!- bkero [~freenode@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:04 < pmetzger> Didn't the hplus people just record the video? or is the only video available the captured streams? 13:06 < pmetzger> (i.e. they haven't released it or they never recorded it?) 13:07 -!- Redeemer [~lorddeeme@c-75-72-218-226.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10 < kanzure> pmetzger: they claim they recorded in HD, but they haven't released the videos yet 13:10 < kanzure> besides.. i'd like to post it to youtube first so that i can get geographic data 13:17 < Ian_Daniher> kanzure: how'd the talk go? did you get a transcript? 13:20 < kanzure> the talk went well :) 13:20 < kanzure> nobody took a transcript 13:20 < kanzure> aha! just got it working 13:20 < kanzure> ./rtmpdump -r "rtmp://xhumanityplusx.od.livestream-api.com/mogulusProxy" -W "http://cdn.livestream.com/chromelessPlayer/wrappers/SimpleWrapper.swf" -y "mp4:dv08/mogulus-user-files/chhumanityplus/2010/06/13/1bdf1fca-917e-4b3a-9fc7-04b31078d9c5.mp4" -p "http://www.livestream.com/humanityplus/video?clipId=pla_5275e0b2-fcae-46f5-8bc4-4c3148d510ba" -o output.flv 13:20 < kanzure> btw, rtmp sucks 13:21 < pmetzger> so much does. 13:37 < kanzure> libssl-dev should be called libopenssl-dev :/ 13:38 -!- strages [~strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:40 < kanzure> fenn: someone named Christopher Rasch has emailed me 13:52 < kanzure> "the lightbulb was such a good idea that it became the symbol for having an idea" 13:56 < pmetzger> kanzure: so you mentioned that people have been hacking on nanoengineer 1? 13:56 < pmetzger> is there a repo set up for this? 13:56 < kanzure> not at the moment 13:56 < kanzure> i am trying to get technologiclee to log back on 13:56 < kanzure> he has a lot of experience with nanoengineer1 ;) 13:57 < kanzure> i did some development on nanoengineer1 for him to help him get things running 13:57 < Ian_Daniher> kanzure: have you seen hundredideas around recently? have a bioreactor idea I want to pitch to him. 13:57 < kanzure> but he wiped his hard drive before i could ask for the code i hacked up 13:57 < kanzure> Ian_Daniher: not today. pitch it anyway :) 13:57 < Ian_Daniher> you may have already seen it on diybio 13:58 < Ian_Daniher> essentially, this month's DIYBioBoston Meetup is discussion benchtop algal bioreactors 13:58 < Ian_Daniher> I came up with a somewhat-feasible design for an integrated bioreactor / centrifuge 13:58 < Ian_Daniher> it'd sit on your desk and act as a kinetic sculpture / zen thing, except when peak algal concentrations were reached 13:59 -!- parolang [~user@64.246.121.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59 < Ian_Daniher> at which point it'd become a spinning thing of death. 13:59 < Ian_Daniher> by which I mean "safe microindustrial benchtop centrifuge" 13:59 < Ian_Daniher> :D 14:00 < Ian_Daniher> not really h+, but of interest to you / anyone else here? 14:00 < kanzure> one of the ideas from the literature is to do microfluidic circuits for separating algae from water, btw 14:01 < kanzure> that way you don't have moving parts of doom 14:01 < pmetzger> back in a few seconds, loading new zenicb/zenirc. 14:01 -!- pmetzger [~perry@69.86.203.77] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01 < Ian_Daniher> that'd be really cool - is it easily DIYable? 14:01 < Ian_Daniher> or feasibly diyable? 14:01 < kanzure> with a laser cutter, sure 14:01 < Ian_Daniher> centrifuging is really inefficient, from most standpoints 14:01 < Ian_Daniher> the issue is that most algae of interest is single-cell, and thus not easily filterable. 14:02 < kanzure> what would be really interesting is a "please will you release your oil" genetic pathway / circuit dealy 14:02 < cluckj> Ian_Daniher is there a diy bio boston meetup this month? 14:03 < kanzure> Ian_Daniher: the articles re: microfluidics are at http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/ just search for papers with 'spiral' in the title, or 'separation' 14:03 < Ian_Daniher> mac said there was one on the 20-somethingth. He promised to email the list about it early this week. 14:03 < cluckj> ah okay 14:03 < cluckj> good! 14:03 < cluckj> I was pestering him to have regular meetings :) 14:03 < Ian_Daniher> haha, ditto :) 14:04 < kanzure> while you two are talking about it 14:04 < cluckj> excellent :D 14:04 < kanzure> con? 14:04 < kanzure> any suggestions for the finalized time tomorrow for the telecon? 14:04 < cluckj> oh 14:04 < cluckj> I doubt I can make the 1pm est slot, I have to do museum work 14:05 < cluckj> what were the other choices? 6est? 14:05 < Ian_Daniher> any time mid-to-late PM EST is good on my end 14:06 < kanzure> the choices were like noon, or 6pm EST / 3pm PST 14:06 < Ian_Daniher> 6pmEST++ 14:07 < cluckj> I'm out of work at like, 5... 14:07 < cluckj> I like 6pm est too 14:07 < kanzure> 10AM PST / 1PM EST or 3PM PST / 6PM EST basically 14:07 < kanzure> okay 14:07 < Ian_Daniher> 6pm_est += 2 14:07 < kanzure> but 1pm EST was recommended because of meredith et al. 14:07 < cluckj> don't let me be the deciding factor 14:07 < kanzure> i like 6pm a lot too.. 14:07 < cluckj> I can listen to a recording 14:07 < cluckj> haha 14:08 -!- pmetzger [~perry@69.86.203.77] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:08 -!- splicer [~patrik@h68n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:08 < cluckj> I haven't talked with meredith yet, even though I talked about her in one of my presentations :fail: 14:08 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10 < cluckj> 6pm est *might* be good for europe too 14:12 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:13 -!- dustbin [~chatzilla@adsl-71-145-162-129.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14 -!- dustbin [~chatzilla@adsl-71-145-162-129.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:14 < pmetzger> kanzure: how do you know Eugen Leitl, anyway? 14:14 < kanzure> internet :) 14:15 < kanzure> various mailing lists 14:15 < pmetzger> yah, he's on a lot of them. 14:15 < kanzure> me too: http://heybryan.org/mailing_lists.html 14:15 < pmetzger> probably more than he should be. :) 14:15 < pmetzger> kanzure: your list is a few years old. :) 14:15 < kanzure> oh crap 14:15 < pmetzger> I'm on too many, too, but I don't read most of them. A few hundred. i pick at them using gnus, but I probably should dump 2/3rds. 14:16 < kanzure> i should update it 14:16 < pmetzger> :) 14:17 < pmetzger> I now have twitter, ichat windows for jabber and AIM, zenicb and zenirc open at once. This is not a recipe for productivity. 14:17 < kanzure> you can integrate under pidgin.im if you want (previously GAIM) 14:18 < cluckj> pidgin is great :) 14:18 < fenn> kanzure: i'll probably be moving in with chris rasch 14:18 < fenn> what did he ask? 14:19 < kanzure> for my phone number 14:19 < kanzure> how was work today? 14:19 < pmetzger> pidgin isn't as nice for chat rooms as emacs based clients. also, I'm not sure if there is a native mac version these days, though I should ask google... 14:19 < fenn> still there, boring and useless pretty much 14:20 < kanzure> to be expected 14:20 < fenn> i'm trying to get around the firewall so i can access my django test server on davinci (there's no linux infrastructure afaict, and the only linux box i know of is not on the network (AND i'm not allowed to plug anything into the network)) 14:20 < kanzure> btw davinci is piling up with different django test servers 14:21 < kanzure> good luck finding an unused port number :P (ok ok it's not that hard) 14:21 < fenn> though tbh i dont know if they even want a django app, i hear mumbling about excel 14:21 < kanzure> for some reason i can't imagine you hanging out around a water cooler 14:21 < kanzure> or in a cubicle 14:22 < fenn> well it appears to be running on fennetic.net:10001, i just dont particularly like having to use elinks 14:22 < fenn> well, you better believe it 14:22 < cluckj> lol 14:23 < fenn> i'm having trouble with the impedance mismatch between me + corporatocracy 14:23 < kanzure> no shit 14:23 < fenn> i have next to me a handwritten database schema 14:24 < kanzure> was it a napkin sketch thing done over lunch? 14:24 < fenn> (that i wrote, because i couldnt figure out how to copy files from one computer to another) 14:24 < kanzure> wtf? 14:24 < kanzure> if they are on windows you should consider just typing in //computer_name/ into the IE browser 14:25 < fenn> the computer isn't on the network 14:25 < superkuh> /computer_name/ ? Does it auto-switch the / for \? 14:25 < fenn> see there's a linux box they use to test cameras, and 'confidential information' can't be allowed to escape from that box 14:25 < superkuh> Windows is usually \\computer_name 14:25 < kanzure> superkuh: wait, you're right 14:25 < kanzure> yes 14:26 < fenn> nevermind the windows box with the same info on it sitting right next to it.. 14:26 < kanzure> wasn't there some file transfer utility out there that spits out a file through the speakers, and then you can use a microphone on another computer to listen for the file? 14:26 < cluckj> lol 14:26 < cluckj> that's pretty sweet 14:26 < fenn> i remember one that would flash the monitor black/white 14:27 < pmetzger> kanzure: modem redux. 14:27 < cluckj> I had one of those timex datalink watches in high school 14:27 < kanzure> pmetzger: we're usually not this lame in here 14:27 < kanzure> fenn: pmetzger wants to work on nanoengineer1 with us :) 14:27 < cluckj> haha 14:28 < kanzure> i haven't pitched skdb-nanoengineer1 integration, or CAD/nano-integration stuff that eleitl was talking about bringing to the table a while back 14:28 < pmetzger> Sort of. Mostly I'm working on DFT simulations but NE-1 is good for sketching up molecules and I want to see it survive. 14:28 < kanzure> ha 14:28 < pmetzger> does Eugen show up around here? 14:28 < kanzure> once in a blue moon 14:28 < kanzure> it's funny.. the GUI is the most questionable part, IMHO, of NE-1 14:29 < pmetzger> yah, but there aren't a lot of programs to let you sketch up molecules. 14:29 < kanzure> true that 14:29 < pmetzger> the molecular mechanics back end is VERY questionable. 14:30 < pmetzger> as in, I don't really believe the results in a wide variety of conditions. And, since it is MM, it won't show reactions, especially self-rearrangement reactions. 14:31 < pmetzger> though MM works well enough for gross molecule motion. 14:32 < pmetzger> anyway, NE-1 is what we have. 14:32 < pmetzger> and it is better to improve what you have than to have nothing. :) 14:35 < pmetzger> some folks a couple of years ago claimed to have a DFT variant that scaled linearly in the size of the system. that would be a real breakthrough, but they never produced working code to my knowledge. 14:36 < pmetzger> that would make simulating reactions ever so much easier. 14:38 < pmetzger> (Did I just stun everyone into silence?) 14:38 < kanzure> no, i was on the phone 14:38 < kanzure> i need to go back through the ne-1 source 14:38 < kanzure> stomp around a bit and poke at it 14:39 < kanzure> pmetzger: do you have a collection of papers on molecular mechanics and stuff by freitas, drexler, or merkle? 14:39 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/ is my collection but sadly it's lacking in the nanotech areas 14:41 < pmetzger> I could aim you at some computational chemistry papers. 14:41 < pmetzger> freitas, drexler, merkle, etc. don't write much on computational chemistry, they mostly have written about MNT. 14:42 < pmetzger> CC is a tool for doing their calculations... 14:42 < pmetzger> you get the distinction between MM and quantum methods? 14:42 < pmetzger> MM pretends the atoms are funny newtonian balls connected by strange springs. 14:43 < pmetzger> so it will approximately tell you about motions and gross mechanical interactions. 14:43 < kanzure> yes 14:43 < pmetzger> it won't explain bonding at all. only quantum mechanics can tell you why bonds are made and broken or calcualte energies of systems accurately. 14:43 < kanzure> bbl (dinner) 14:44 < kanzure> papers would be hawt though 14:44 < kanzure> either by email or reference in here :) 14:51 -!- Noahj [~noah@66.152.216.26] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:51 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-87-105-22-81.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:56 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57 -!- Noahj [~noah@66.152.216.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00 < fenn> you know, i think what eleitl may have been rambling about was 'lazy evaluation', he just didnt know it 15:00 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:01 < fenn> you can't specify the coordinates of all the atoms (not without a n*10^23 byte memory storage), so only evaluate coordinates when it matters 15:10 < pmetzger> fenn: don't get what you mean... 15:23 < genehacker> atomic file formats? 15:27 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:32 < pmetzger> PDB is one of the more frequenly used file formats for specifying atomic coordinates in molecules. 15:32 < pmetzger> it works. 15:40 -!- Roy78 [~Tiger@ip68-11-187-208.br.br.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:45 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:57 -!- mheld [~mheld@216.214.247.202] has quit [Quit: mheld] 15:57 < kanzure> atlanta fablab-diybio thingy http://arkfab.org/ 15:58 < fenn> pmetzger: pdb was mentioned as an example format that didn't do what he wanted 15:58 < pmetzger> ?? 15:59 < fenn> don't ask me 15:59 < pmetzger> he's not responding on jabber, which isn't surprising, he's in Germany after all. 15:59 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-12-28.log 15:59 < kanzure> or possibly: 15:59 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-12-23.log 15:59 < pmetzger> PDB is pretty mediocre as a format, it isn't what I'd design, but it works... 16:00 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-12-24.log is another possibility 16:00 < pmetzger> what's eugen's handle? 16:00 < kanzure> eleitl 16:00 < pmetzger> got it. 16:00 < genehacker> keep in mind PDB was designed by bioinformatics people... 16:00 < kanzure> let's not be racist 16:01 < genehacker> PDB wasn't designed for nanomachines 16:01 < pmetzger> wow, too much to read... 16:01 < genehacker> unless you count proteins as nanomachines 16:01 < pmetzger> genehacker: PDB was sesigned by people who don't know computers well. 16:02 < pmetzger> that's the real problem. 16:02 < kanzure> hah 16:02 < pmetzger> Many proteins *are* nanomachines. ATP synthase, ribosomes. 16:02 < kanzure> don't hate on the bioinformaticians, they're just a bit challenged sometimes :) 16:02 < pmetzger> I don't mean that to be an attack. It is hard to know more than one discipline well. 16:02 < kanzure> (where did klafka go?) 16:02 < pmetzger> most CS people don't understand chemistry at all. That's why I spent an additional three years in school and I don't know if it was enough. :| 16:03 < pmetzger> Anyway, PDB is a weird format if you're a CS person, but I can see how it evolved, and there are lots of viewers etc. 16:03 < pmetzger> I'd do something very different if I was designing from scratch, but I've learned not to fight unnecessary battles... 16:04 < pmetzger> ultimately, to do CAD on systems with billions of atoms it will need replacing. For now, eh. 16:04 < kanzure> pmetzger: eugen and the rest of us were talking about the idea of doing a CAD thing that could integrate nanoscale up to whatever the normal engineering scales are 16:04 < kanzure> in some easy to use python library 16:04 < pmetzger> That would be very very cool. 16:05 < kanzure> so.. we've been working on skdb, or "apt-get for hardware" 16:05 < pmetzger> The thingiverse people etc. have been using blender and worse as CAD tools. 16:05 < kanzure> non-technical article: http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web 16:05 < kanzure> yeah, thingiverse users should be raped and burned to death 16:05 < pmetzger> CAD does not mean "3D modeling." 16:05 < kanzure> including you, genehacker 16:05 < kanzure> although at least you use CAD tools sometimes 16:05 < pmetzger> kanzure: hey, don't hate on them, they are at least building shit. :) 16:05 < kanzure> bah 16:05 < pmetzger> I have a serious bias towards people who get off their asses and do stuff. :) 16:05 < kanzure> anyway, the reason why they think it's ok is because "oh! well my reprap/makerbot thing prints out STL ok, so it must be good!" 16:05 < pmetzger> and a serious bias against people who talk and never do... 16:06 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06 < kanzure> openscad looks okay and such, but it only exports to a mesh format 16:06 < pmetzger> they think it is okay because they don't have better. what's needed is some sort of well designed open framework -- a CAD version of emacs. :) 16:06 < kanzure> skdb overview: http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb 16:06 < kanzure> pmetzger: opencascade is huge and bloated :/ 16:06 < pmetzger> ah, so it is like emacs already! :) 16:06 < kanzure> we made the mistake of making skdb dependent on opencascade for a lot of the CAD stuff 16:06 < pmetzger> but in the wrong way. :) 16:06 < kanzure> and it has licensing issues "sort of" 16:07 < pmetzger> so ultimately the notion is that you apt-get a design and blat it into your manufacturing device? 16:07 < kanzure> well, the design repository stuff is pretty easy to do IMHO 16:07 < kanzure> the important thing is representing dependencies and required tools 16:07 < pmetzger> whether that's a 3D printer, 5 axis CNC machine, etc? 16:07 * kanzure nods 16:08 < pmetzger> or hopefully ultimately, molecular manufacturing infrastructure. 16:08 < pmetzger> the only issue to me is that no one has ever built a unified CAD system capable of handling even macroscopic electronics and mechanical in one system. 16:09 < pmetzger> Irony is, the people who know the most about this are folks like John Walker. 16:09 < kanzure> well, in this system, electronics would be integrated in the sense that you'd have usable datasheets 16:09 < pmetzger> Too bad John probably has no interest in doing something... 16:09 < kanzure> and then you'd have a geometry for each chip.. 16:09 < kanzure> or smt component 16:09 < pmetzger> It would be nice to have a unified simulation system for both control and mechanics. 16:09 < pmetzger> esp. once one gets to nanorobotics, which are the biggest engineering challenge I can name... 16:10 < kanzure> have you used openscad before? or heard about it 16:10 < pmetzger> nope. 16:10 < kanzure> it's povray basically except with C-like syntax 16:10 < pmetzger> Truth be told, I've touched AutoCAD once for a few minutes. 16:10 < kanzure> well, actually, even povray does 16:11 < kanzure> it just has syntax that makes it feel like CSG, and then has a CSG backend with sketchy licensing issues 16:11 -!- timschmidt [~tim@h75-100-207-56.prrymi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:11 < pmetzger> BTW, I found out why that XVIVO video we saw Sunday morning looked so good. 16:11 < kanzure> anyway, the idea is to do some programming instead of transmitting around a file 16:11 < pmetzger> Fully radiosity rendered. Ten minutes per frame on a hex core machine. 16:11 < kanzure> so, by running a python file, you'd get your solid geometry model generated 16:12 < pmetzger> so here's the thing. a real CAD system lets you simulate, not just do solid modeling. if you have a real CAD system, you design a mechanical clock, say, you can turn the gears and see that something hits something else so it won't work right *before* you build. 16:12 < kanzure> sure, but that's not the same thing as CFD or DFT 16:12 < pmetzger> CFD? 16:13 < kanzure> computational fluid dynamics stuff. 16:13 < kanzure> like heat flow simulations 16:13 < pmetzger> ah, okay. 16:13 < kanzure> collision detection isn't usually referred to as simulation.. 16:13 < kanzure> gah the vocab is so messed up in this field 16:13 < kanzure> i mean, you usually do collision detection in a simulation, yes 16:13 < timschmidt> nor are there any open source CAD applications (with the possible exception of Blender, and perhaps some of the animation-related features of K-3D) capable of doing that yet 16:13 < kanzure> timschmidt: blender is not CAD 16:13 < pmetzger> as I said, I'm an amateur at this, and too many other things... 16:13 < timschmidt> kanzure: I know 16:14 < timschmidt> that's my point 16:14 < kanzure> anyway, what's wrong with HeeksCAD with collision detection? 16:14 < timschmidt> we have _nothing_ capable of doing proper mechanical simulation 16:14 < pmetzger> I suspect playing with AutoCAD for a few hours is something I should do. Unfortunately, it is expensive to get your hands on. 16:14 < timschmidt> so requiring that as a feature right off the bat seems odd 16:15 < pmetzger> without proper simulation of the function of devices, you're just doing a very sophisticated sort of drawing. 16:15 < kanzure> timschmidt: btw, pmetzger is new here :) 16:15 < pmetzger> with it, you can check that what you design actually works... 16:15 < timschmidt> pmetzger: sure 16:15 < timschmidt> but that's what we've got to work with at the moment 16:15 < pmetzger> in the nanoscale stuff, which is my primary interest, making sure everything works is the most important part right now... 16:15 < kanzure> i think the most important part is the dependency tree for building it.. 16:15 < kanzure> :) 16:16 < kanzure> doesn't matter if it works if you can't make it: no amount of tweaking will fix that 16:16 < kanzure> where it=nanotech stuff 16:16 < pmetzger> speaking of which, did you see the interview recently with JvEhr? 16:16 < kanzure> no? linky? 16:16 < pmetzger> they've apparently been building some nice high vacuum stuff in house. hang on, I'll get the link. 16:17 < pmetzger> http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/05/jim-von-ehr-founder-and-owner-of-zyvex.html 16:17 < pmetzger> apparently, no one sells the UHV SPM stuff. you have to build it in house. 16:17 < kanzure> wtf 16:17 < kanzure> that sucks 16:17 < pmetzger> we had a big UHV rig at the lab I worked at a few years ago, it was nasty... 16:17 < kanzure> i was looking into building UHV chambers a few years ago 16:17 < kanzure> i was super interested in bose-einstein condensates 16:17 < pmetzger> weighed a few tons. We called it "Martha". 16:18 < kanzure> for some reason it turned into a von neumann probe page for me http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/ 16:18 < kanzure> because i was interested in atom holography 16:18 < kanzure> has some good uhv howto links on that page though :) 16:18 < pmetzger> doing SPM based nano bootstrap requires UHV I think, though Merkle has talked about using systems with pure argon atmospheres during bootstrap. 16:19 < kanzure> hehe with a good page on how to construct an atom laser: http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/atom_holography_notes.html 16:19 < kanzure> pmetzger: are you familiar with paul rothemund's work? (or erik winfree's lab) 16:19 < pmetzger> yes. 16:19 < kanzure> dna origami and dna-embedded electronics and such 16:19 < kanzure> or, i guess dna algorithmic assembly to embed electronics and other components in particular places 16:19 < pmetzger> I've heard Erik talk, read Rothemund's papers, interviewed with Ned Seeman about doing a doctorate with him but I decided against. 16:20 < kanzure> cool 16:20 < kanzure> i saw ned at singularity summit 2009 16:20 < pmetzger> I'm a direct-to-diamondoid type though. 16:20 < kanzure> i was really surprised to see ned there 16:20 < kanzure> so i chated with him a bit :) really cool guy 16:20 < kanzure> *chatted 16:20 < pmetzger> he likes showing up at those things here and there. 16:20 < pmetzger> he's really nice. started as a crystallographer you know. 16:20 < pmetzger> still is at heart. 16:20 * kanzure nods 16:21 < pmetzger> Anyway, my feeling is this: developing a full new technology (DNA origami) only to replace it once you have all the parts in place seems like a slow way to go. 16:21 < kanzure> heh, sure 16:21 < pmetzger> also, lots of people working on it already, few working on direct to diamondoid, so I feel like I can make more impact there. 16:21 < kanzure> i was working under andrew ellington for a while, i was tasked with mimicing/stealing erik winfree's / paul's work 16:21 < pmetzger> kind of why I'm not working on Aubrey's program -- not much impact I can have there... 16:21 < kanzure> so paul came to talk at our lab once or twice, etc. 16:22 < pmetzger> I understood from Ned that a lot of the trick to reproducing the results was in stuff like purity of starting materials and technique tricks. 16:22 < kanzure> yep 16:22 < kanzure> lots of gel streaking otherwise.. 16:22 < pmetzger> not surprised, given the time I spent in a synthetic organic lab... 16:22 < pmetzger> the real world is ever so much messier than the world of theory. :) 16:23 < kanzure> hey, btw, who tend to be crazier? the molecular biologists or the material engineers 16:23 < timschmidt> both? 16:23 < pmetzger> hard for me to tell. I don't know a lot of material scientists. 16:23 < pmetzger> and I like most of the mol bio people I've met. :) 16:23 < kanzure> oh, sure, i like them too 16:23 < pmetzger> btw, bryan, surprised you haven't read "Nanosystems" given your interests. it is kind of the bible. 16:24 < pmetzger> the mol bio people are cool. they automate their work with robots and computers. 16:24 < pmetzger> the synthetic organic chemists are still working with the same tools they had in 1900 pretty much. 16:24 < kanzure> yeah.. i've kind of avoided MNT stuff for fear of going down the deep dark hole of theoretical masturbation without a way to build stuff 16:24 < pmetzger> bryan: I think we have ways to start trying to build stuff now. 16:24 < kanzure> nah, not all the molecular people are doing robotics :( at least not the lab i was in 16:24 < pmetzger> bryan: but it is Not Easy. 16:24 < kanzure> yeah, various scanning probe tip methods i guess? 16:24 < pmetzger> kanzure: many of them are though. 16:25 < pmetzger> I think scanning probes are the way to start, yah. 16:25 < pmetzger> the nice thing is, the chem we develop for the bootstrap, we can keep once we get past bootstrap. 16:25 < pmetzger> no wasted design. 16:25 < kanzure> so what's the plan in general? drop a few atoms down and hope something happens? 16:25 < pmetzger> no. the notion is to put very controlled molecular tips on the ends of SPMs and build with them. the Merkle-Freitas paper describes a closed set of tools. 16:25 < pmetzger> if you had all of them you could build all of them. 16:26 < timschmidt> I'd love to build a hobbiest FIB (focused ion beam) machine here at home... start making some of my own ICs. But I fear gallium arsenide might be hard to source. 16:26 < pmetzger> and a lot more. 16:26 < pmetzger> timschmidt: not to mention insanely toxic. :) 16:26 < kanzure> timschmidt: i think there are ways to do it without an ion beam 16:26 < timschmidt> :) 16:26 < kanzure> pmetzger: i've been meaning to build an AFM for direct DNA sequencing 16:26 < kanzure> just fyi as something on my todo list 16:27 < pmetzger> AFMs are cool. The fact that they're easy enough to use for undergrads is amazing to me. 16:27 < pmetzger> when I went back to school, one of our pchem lab sessions was "image some graphene on the AFM". we did it. it worked. 16:27 < kanzure> have you seen the diy afm stuff out there? :) 16:27 < pmetzger> it was amazing to see the chicken wire patterns start to appear on the scene and know we were imaging atoms. 16:27 < pmetzger> when I was a kid the dogma was no human would ever see an atom. 16:27 < pmetzger> which turned out to be bullshit thank goodness. 16:28 < kanzure> i really like the simplicity of the design of an afm setup 16:28 < pmetzger> I've seen no specific DIY AFM, but I've seen lots of DIY SPM stuff in general... 16:28 < pmetzger> a lot of people seem to build their own AFMs and STMs. 16:28 < kanzure> yeah i think there was at least one diy tunneling rigup 16:28 -!- genehacker [genehacker@wireless-128-62-101-152.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:29 < cluckj> hey, btw, who tend to be crazier? the molecular biologists or the material engineers <-- equally crazy as far as I can tell 16:29 < kanzure> the molecular biologists will be like "let's mutate an ocean vent bacteria gene and put it into a monkey's penis and see if it explodes" 16:29 < pmetzger> there was this one little ten second very high energy TEM film in Sagan's "Cosmos" series on PBS where they showed some uranium atoms and it was very exciting 30 years ago. Now, you can image atoms all you want. It is so fucking cool. 16:29 < kanzure> while material engineers are trying to play around with grey goo like it's putty 16:29 < kanzure> i dunno, it's hard to tell :) 16:30 < cluckj> yeeeep, like I said :) 16:30 < pmetzger> anyway, one big insight from Drexler is that if you have absolute positional control in UHV, you can do reactions you could never manage in solution phase chemistry. 16:31 < kanzure> is there a torrent for 'nanosystems'? 16:31 < kanzure> or something 16:31 < pmetzger> doubtless, but the book itself is $3.50 used on amazon. 16:31 < kanzure> heh 16:31 < pmetzger> I'll send you a copy out of my own pocket if you'll read it. 16:31 < pmetzger> If you can find a torrent though that would be very cool. 16:31 < cluckj> gigapedia? 16:31 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-76-197.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:32 < pmetzger> anyway, though, at $3.50 used it is cheap enough for most people to buy. :) 16:32 < kanzure> my connection is going to be slow for the next 20min.. uploading my last weekend's talk 16:32 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 16:32 < cluckj> hehe, I spent all my summer fun money for h+ 16:33 -!- genehacker [genehacker@wireless-128-62-101-152.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33 < pmetzger> With the student discount and driving myself and crashing on a friend's floor, H+ cost me about $200. 16:33 < kanzure> i paid for three other tickets and for their hotel rooms 16:33 < pmetzger> including overpriced parking in harvard square. 16:33 < kanzure> but it was worth it i think 16:34 < cluckj> I waited too long to register since I didn't know if I was going and paid $150 @_@ 16:34 < pmetzger> I wish there were fewer "business opportunities after the singularity!" talks but whatever. 16:35 < pmetzger> there were good people to meet and talk to. 16:35 < kanzure> 18:34 < Oort> kanzure: Modern practitioners have too much data and are engaged in a theory-free reduction of it under the neologism 'bioinformatics'. 16:35 < cluckj> yep 16:35 < cluckj> I had a really great weekend 16:35 < kanzure> i laughed hysterically when that one group was trying to say that foursquare was a sign of the singularity 16:36 < kanzure> todo: facebook, zoodango, peoplejar, tabup, wayzon, eventbee, eventful, amiando, acteva, ticketfly, eventsbot, center'd, zoji, mobaganda 16:37 -!- genehacker [genehacker@wireless-128-62-85-43.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:37 < pmetzger> genehacker seems to have an unstable connection. :) 16:37 < cluckj> pmetzger where were you coming from? 16:37 < kanzure> he doesn't know how to use screen 16:37 < pmetzger> New York City. 16:38 < pmetzger> though I'm in Philadelphia half the time. 16:38 < cluckj> oh cool, I grew up in Bensalem 16:38 < pmetzger> I'm at U. Penn but I live in NYC. 16:39 < JayDugger> What do the elements of that "todo:" set have in common? 16:40 < kanzure> they were [Bnot quite sure yet ;-) 16:40 < kanzure> ugh apparently if you type too fast, 'screen' passes through your control characters 16:40 < kanzure> or, er, something like that 16:45 < jrayhawk> irssi is fullscreen ncurses, so you could just use dtach instead. 16:45 < jrayhawk> this has the added benefit of not mangling unicode 16:45 < pmetzger> I use zenirc because I'm an emacs addict. 16:45 < kanzure> i haven't yet figured out the difference 16:46 < JayDugger> Does irssi play well from inside a screen session? 16:46 < Utopiah> yes 16:46 < kanzure> usually. 16:46 < jrayhawk> Other than unicode and random screen crashes. 16:46 < JayDugger> Doesn't irssi start its' own screen session, at least by default? 16:46 < kanzure> right :) 16:46 < kanzure> no irssi doesn't seem to do that 16:47 < JayDugger> Alright, time to RTFMp. 16:47 < jrayhawk> Irssi has its own session management, but doesn't offer any form of detachability as far as I know. 16:47 < Utopiah> only problem I know was trying to do a 2 lines irssi window then it crashed, beside that has be been running for months non-stop without glitches (unicor char included) 16:48 < JayDugger> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/hplussummit/ 16:49 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2010/photos/ 16:49 < kanzure> 38% uploaded on my vid.. 16:49 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:50 < kanzure> JayDugger: do you have 'nanosystems' in .txt or .pdf form anywhere? 16:50 < pmetzger> .txt wouldn't make sense, too many typeset equations. 16:51 < kanzure> got it 16:51 < pmetzger> you found one? 16:51 < kanzure> er, i mean, 'understood', not that i got it 16:51 < pmetzger> aw. 16:51 < pmetzger> BTW, you've seen diybookscanner or whatever it is called? 16:52 < Utopiah> http://www.diybookscanner.org/ 16:52 < kanzure> i've seen a few different types before 16:52 < kanzure> dunno about one with that exact name though 16:52 * kanzure is still uploading and unable to do anything (even type..blah) 16:52 < pmetzger> that's one of them. also: http://bkrpr.org/doku.php 16:52 < pmetzger> those two sites are rather cool. :) 16:53 < kanzure> #bookwarez is dead, where did they move to? 16:54 < QuantumG> undernet 16:54 < superkuh> #bookz on undernet is good. 16:55 < Utopiah> pmetzger: Id like to scan my old paper notebooks with a DIYBookScanner 16:55 < cluckj> gigapedia.com is great :) 16:56 < pmetzger> If I had room in my apartment I'd have a book scanner set up. 16:59 < pmetzger> Kanzure? I forgot... there is an older version of Nanosystems online. It was Drexler's doctoral thesis, and the doctoral thesis version is posted. It was updated a lot for the book, but it is available. 16:59 < pmetzger> it is even legit. 17:01 < kanzure> what are the nature of the updates? 17:01 < pmetzger> Serious editing. 17:01 < pmetzger> A bunch of new material. 17:01 < pmetzger> http://e-drexler.com/d/09/00/Drexler_MIT_dissertation.pdf 17:02 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 17:02 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/Drexler_MIT_dissertation.pdf 17:02 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/Drexler_MIT_dissertation.pdfthank you 17:02 < kanzure> gah 17:02 < kanzure> *thank you 17:03 < pmetzger> As I said, I'll mail you the book if you email me an address, but it will arrive at your door for under $10 if you go to http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0471575186/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1276646596&sr=8-1&condition=used 17:05 < QuantumG> shame the nanotechnology people are such socialists 17:06 < kanzure> ? wtf 17:07 < QuantumG> they're basically waiting for the government to confirm, advocate and fund their dreams 17:07 < pmetzger> I'm not. 17:07 < QuantumG> who are you? 17:08 < pmetzger> Male "Homo Sapiens", located in New York City. 17:08 < pmetzger> who are you? :) 17:08 < QuantumG> so what are you doing that makes it relevant to say you're not. 17:08 < pmetzger> I'm a molecular manufacturing research type. 17:09 < pmetzger> There are others you know. 17:09 < kanzure> pmetzger: QuantumG can sometimes be a troll :) but we all love him 17:10 < pmetzger> I think Drexler to some extent expected the government to "do something" but that's another story and I don't speak for him. 17:10 < QuantumG> cause Merkle, Drexler and Freitas Jr are all having fun writing theoretical papers and saying "we should do this, really guys" 17:10 < kanzure> pmetzger: but what /are/ you doing, if you don't mind me asking? 17:11 < kanzure> do you have the burden of a Real Job? 17:11 < pmetzger> Drexler has written nothing in a while. Merkle and Freitas are doing design work, which is really valuable. They write great papers. 17:11 < pmetzger> I'm a doctoral student at Penn. 17:11 < QuantumG> "design work" is the problem 17:11 < pmetzger> With my nano hat on, I do simulations for the moment, but I've worked in wet labs in the past. 17:12 < pmetzger> Without knowing what you want to build, you can spend decades getting nowhere. I have a great story on that. 17:12 < QuantumG> doing some actual experimentation to push the state of the art of what can *actually be done* in this field is being done by.... umm... 17:12 < pmetzger> One of the world's more famous synthetic organic chemists, who I won't name because this is a public channel, spent some years trying to synthesize molecular belts made of fused phenyl rings. 17:13 < pmetzger> If he had bothered to talk to the theory people, he could have read lots of good papers on why the linear belts he was looking at were unstable and could not be synthesized, while staggered belts could have been made because they were stable. 17:13 < pmetzger> Theory without practice is barren masturbation. Lab work without theory is often fruitless. 17:13 < pmetzger> Together, you can get a lot done. 17:14 < cluckj> spoken like a good scientist :P 17:14 < pmetzger> We had a saying in a lab I worked in -- you could save several hours in the library with six months in the lab. :) 17:14 < genehacker> problem is they do nothing but design work 17:14 < cluckj> hahaha 17:15 < QuantumG> genehacker: nanotechnology is the only field where it is legitimate to design things that we have no idea how to build. 17:15 < genehacker> another problem is making and testing the tooltips is gonna be hard 17:15 < genehacker> nah, there are plenty of other fields that do that 17:15 < pmetzger> Anyway, as to who I am, I decided about six years go I wanted to spend all my time on this, so that's what I'm doing. 17:16 < QuantumG> I'm sure there is, but is it considered legitimate work or just masturbation 17:16 < genehacker> Craig venter still hasn't synthesized his M. laboratorium yet 17:16 < genehacker> we'll see 17:17 < QuantumG> at least he has an idea how to do it.. and as far as I can tell, already has the technique ready, just hasn't announced it yet 17:17 < pmetzger> we have a good idea of how to do what we want to do, too. 17:17 < QuantumG> hmm? 17:17 < kanzure> pmetzger: cool :) 17:17 < genehacker> well now he does 17:17 < pmetzger> And venter spent almost 15 years working on M. laboratorium. 17:17 < kanzure> pmetzger: re: your six years ago thing 17:18 < genehacker> someone's trying to validate or disprove mechanosynthesis btw 17:18 < genehacker> with loads of computational chemistry 17:18 < QuantumG> there was always a roadmap for venter's work.. with few "and this a miracle occurs" in there.. 17:18 < pmetzger> same here. 17:18 < genehacker> what's a common pin? 17:19 < QuantumG> same really can't be said for productive nanosystems.. and there won't be if all that is ever done is theoretical work 17:19 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:20 < pmetzger> lots of non-theoretical work has been done. 17:20 < genehacker> like? 17:20 < kanzure> pmetzger: can you pull up some papers via google scholar? 17:20 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/ 17:20 < kanzure> like the tool tip paper, or experimental stuff 17:20 < genehacker> Rice Nanocar? 17:21 < pmetzger> Von Ehr & Co are working on using SPMs to make blocks of pure material. 17:21 < genehacker> how? 17:21 < pmetzger> you mean freitas' tooltip paper? it is on Freitas' papers page... 17:21 < genehacker> err what's an SPM again? 17:21 < kanzure> sure but what about the others 17:21 < pmetzger> Scanning probe microscopy. 17:21 < kanzure> scanning probe 17:21 < pmetzger> which paper are you looking for? 17:22 < kanzure> i thought you'd know of some examples of experimental tooltip papers or something 17:22 < genehacker> ah I see 17:22 < kanzure> if i knew the names i'd go get them myself :D 17:22 < genehacker> how do they use the SPM to make blocks of material? 17:22 < pmetzger> genehacker: you know how they used an SPM to spell out IBM in xenon atoms? 17:22 < QuantumG> there's lots of experimentation on silicon.. all the stuff people tend to talk about as MEMS.. 17:22 < pmetzger> thats the general idea. 17:22 < pmetzger> kanzure: There's the stuff done by Moriarty's lab in the UK. Also the paper the japanese did a while ago on doing mechanosynthetic reactions with CO at a tooltip. 17:23 < pmetzger> Not as much as I'd like I'll readily admit. 17:23 < genehacker> link to the japanese one? 17:23 < genehacker> I think I remember that one 17:23 < QuantumG> but I don't see how any of it is related to what Merkle and Freitas Jr are writing about. There's a chasm there. 17:23 < genehacker> ok but they certainly won't be making blocks of xenon for real applications? 17:24 < pmetzger> I don't have the japanese paper handy. 17:24 < pmetzger> no, they're doing blocks of Si and other materials. 17:24 < pmetzger> Xenon atoms aren't going to hold together after all. Noble gas. 17:24 < QuantumG> In fact, getting an answer to "how much tooltip accuracy do you need?" out of Merkle and Freitas Jr is like pulling teeth 17:24 < pmetzger> See the interview I posted with von Ehr above. 17:24 < genehacker> not carbon, but it's a start 17:24 < pmetzger> QuantumG: it is? That information is in the papers. 17:25 < QuantumG> and getting an answer to "how fast is tooltip accuracy improving?" is like knocking them out. 17:25 < pmetzger> er, huh? 17:25 < kanzure> heh this is why we should be looking at the papers themselves 17:25 < kanzure> instead of talking about them.. 17:25 < pmetzger> I thought you said you'd read the M & F tooltip paper... 17:26 < QuantumG> "the papers" eh? How about naming the papers and saying what line it is on... 17:26 < kanzure> or at least naming the papers, how about 17:26 < kanzure> line numbers might be a little extreme 17:26 < kanzure> pmetzger: i did.. a long time ago 17:26 < QuantumG> yes.. there's nothing in there about required tooltip accuracy TO MAKE THE TOOLS 17:26 < kanzure> i think it's entirely reasonable to re-read it 17:26 < pmetzger> QuantumG: yes there is. :) 17:27 < pmetzger> hang on, I'll get a page of refs. 17:27 < QuantumG> maybe I wasn't clear on that.. I'm looking for "how do we get from here to there?" 17:27 < pmetzger> http://www.rfreitas.com/NanoPubls.htm 17:28 < pmetzger> QuantumG: since the tooltips can be used for a closed process, the accuracy they require is sufficient to make them. 17:28 < pmetzger> though I would hope we could use conventional synthetic organic techniques with substituted adamantanes to do some of the bootstrap work. 17:28 < QuantumG> so which paper has the required accuracy? 17:29 < pmetzger> 14 17:29 < pmetzger> Also chapter 5 of nanosystems. 17:29 < pmetzger> also other places. 17:29 * kanzure clicks 17:29 < pmetzger> Suffice it to say, the simulations that Damian Allis did were focused on precisely the accuracy needed 17:29 < pmetzger> how far from optimal would you still get the desired reaction instead of side reactions. 17:30 < pmetzger> saying that there is no knowledge on the required accuracy means you haven't read the work. 17:30 < QuantumG> k, so I have the paper open.. I still don't see it 17:30 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/nanotech/ 17:30 < pmetzger> So what was done was a set of very nasty quantum chem calculations on what would happen if the tip was displaced along various trajectories 17:31 < pmetzger> The paper is well over 100 pages long. how would you see that in ten seconds? 17:31 < QuantumG> ... umm.. you're providing the reference, you could at least tell me what to look for 17:31 < pmetzger> I haven't read the paper in nine months, but I understand the work. 17:31 -!- Roy78 [~Tiger@ip68-11-187-208.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31 < pmetzger> read what side reactions you get in the paper after a displacement of how many picometers, that's covered in detail. 17:32 < QuantumG> this is why I asked Merkle when he was presenting at SU.. and didn't get an answer. 17:32 < pmetzger> there were also simulations both at LN2 temps and at 300K. 17:32 < pmetzger> at 300K, as you would expect, thermal noise makes the number of side reactions happen more often. 17:32 < pmetzger> There is no one answer. 17:32 < pmetzger> the issue is what error rate you will tolerate 17:33 < pmetzger> the lower the error rate you want, the tighter the control you need. 17:33 < pmetzger> There is a chapter in Nanosystems on that. 17:33 < pmetzger> you can never have 0 defects, of course. 17:33 < QuantumG> ok, let's move on, what's the accuracy of the state of that art? 17:34 < pmetzger> in SPMs? well below an angstrom. 17:34 < pmetzger> sufficiently far below an angstrom to be good enough. 17:34 < pmetzger> the issue is techniques to permit repeatability of positioning in the face of drift over time. 17:34 < QuantumG> so SPMs are already good enough to make the M&F toolset? 17:34 < pmetzger> yes, but techniques for attaching molecules onto SPM tips are not. 17:35 < pmetzger> BTW, SPMs would still need improvements to deal with drift over time. 17:35 < pmetzger> there are several thoughts on that, including putting patterns down on the substrate as calibration marks, re-scanning and doing processing to figure out where you are vs. where you thought you were, etc. 17:35 < pmetzger> it is a significant technology issue but clearly one that can be overcome. 17:36 < QuantumG> so is there any numbers on that repeatability of positioning problem? 17:36 < pmetzger> UHV is unpleasant but the technology exists and is understood. 17:36 < pmetzger> That's a widespread issue in the SPM literature, you can read on that there, yes. 17:36 < pmetzger> The SPM people care about that in general. 17:36 < pmetzger> though not quite in the way people envisioning using SPM tips for manufacturing do. 17:36 < QuantumG> yep, so it sounds like you should be able to graph that over time and define a crossover point where it will become good enough 17:37 < pmetzger> There is also work that was just done at IBM on using a scanning tip on a polymer surface to do surface patterning, though that particular MEMS technique is only good to 1nm at the moment. 17:37 < pmetzger> also the folks at NIST have built a multi-probe gadget using MEMS that is very cool. 17:38 < genehacker> I thought the IBM thing was worse 17:38 < pmetzger> worse than 1nm? 17:38 < QuantumG> so what would you say are the major roadblocks to getting to the M&F toolset? 17:38 < pmetzger> that's pretty course already. 17:38 < pmetzger> QuantumG: the biggest problem is how few people are working on it. 17:39 < pmetzger> with no one working on the problem it will never happen. 17:39 < QuantumG> I'm sure that's the case, but what would you have them work on? 17:39 < pmetzger> How many people are you giving me in theory? :) 17:39 < pmetzger> My answer is different if I have 1 vs 100 17:39 < pmetzger> and what skills do they have etc. 17:40 < QuantumG> however many you need to imagine and with whatever skills you need to imagine to answer my question 17:40 < pmetzger> we need people skilled at practical SPM work, people who can work on synthesizing initial tooltips using synthetic organic chemistry, people to do better simulations because I suspect there are flaws in the current designs. We need people to work on techniques for attaching tips onto SPMs, control software, initial very simple machines to target... 17:41 < pmetzger> There's an ocean of work. 17:41 < pmetzger> initial designs that can be built with the sorts of tools in question will probably have to be pretty crude diamondoid parts. 17:41 < pmetzger> but that's okay. 17:42 < genehacker> I thought the tooltips were so reactive you couldn't synthesize them using organic chemistry? 17:42 < pmetzger> if charged, they are. but the underlying molecules are pretty common. 17:42 < genehacker> and that organic chemistry wouldn't be "clean enough" for tool tip producution 17:42 < pmetzger> DC10c is an adamantane derivative. 17:42 < QuantumG> so have tips been attached to SPMs successfully already? What sort of tips haven't? What are the challenges there? 17:42 < pmetzger> They've gotten SWCNTs onto the ends of SPMs. that's about it. 17:42 < genehacker> IE, one needs it to work in a high vacuum environment and all the waste products could get in the way? 17:43 < pmetzger> One could probably bootstrap off of those, however. 17:43 < genehacker> that's neat 17:43 < pmetzger> genehacker: imagine that I could synthesize DC10c, attach it using known wet chem techniques to the end of an SWCNT, and then use the other techniques to get it attached to an SPM probe. 17:44 < pmetzger> This is not trivial, but all the parts are understandable technology and nothing is individually overly wild. 17:44 < QuantumG> so here's the hard question: what are the commercial applications of solving all the various problems that need to be solved on the way to productive nanotechnology? 17:44 < pmetzger> no big breakthroughs are required, but is is all messy. 17:44 < pmetzger> QuantumG: you mean, what intermediate products might be achieved that could drive the technology forward? 17:44 < QuantumG> yep :) 17:45 < pmetzger> I dunno. Honestly, I don't. That's one reason I'm not looking to raise VC funding for work. 17:45 < genehacker> so you can make tooltips with other tool tips right? 17:45 < pmetzger> genehacker: that's the idea. 17:45 < pmetzger> closed process = you can make your tools with your tools. 17:45 < QuantumG> what was the SWCNT tooltips used for? 17:45 < genehacker> neat 17:45 < pmetzger> just scanning. nothing that impressive. 17:45 -!- Roy78 [~Tiger@ip68-11-187-208.br.br.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:45 < QuantumG> are SPMs used for commercial work much currently? 17:45 < pmetzger> a lot. 17:46 < pmetzger> I've visited a few commercial labs where they're in use. 17:46 < QuantumG> what for? 17:46 < pmetzger> Was at ExxonMobil labs once where they were using them for tribology work. 17:46 < pmetzger> weird eh? 17:46 < genehacker> not really 17:46 < pmetzger> they had some very elaborate setups. 17:46 < pmetzger> QuantumG: so what's your background anyway? 17:46 < genehacker> in tribology it helps to figure out the atom loss rate from the material 17:47 < genehacker> to see how effective one's lubrication is 17:47 < pmetzger> lots of people use SPMs these days, AFM is kind of a standard technique now in all sorts of work. 17:47 < QuantumG> well, I'd imagine there's probably commercial applications in there 17:48 < pmetzger> maybe. I'm not an SPM specialist. 17:48 < QuantumG> I assume you know some though :) 17:48 < pmetzger> I have a CS degree, a few years of chem and physics, self taught in mol bio. 17:48 < pmetzger> I know too little about too many things and feel bad about my ignorance. 17:49 < QuantumG> my point of asking this stuff is that, if you're not a socialist, these are the kinds of questions one asks to push the state of the art in the direction they want it to go. 17:49 < QuantumG> (to get back to my original point) 17:50 < pmetzger> I'm not worried about money. I'm worried about brains. 17:50 < pmetzger> not enough human minds and nothing can get done. 17:50 < kanzure> new papers uploaded into that /papers/nanotech/ 17:51 < QuantumG> you're not saying anything contradictory... the way brains is organized in our society is around either socialist-like institutions or around productive commercial work. 17:51 < QuantumG> I, personally, think the productive commercial work produces much more massive change 17:51 < pmetzger> I'm not averse to academic research. It has proven pretty useful in the past. 17:52 < pmetzger> Almost all the work on figuring out how DNA works and decoding the genome etc. happened in academia. 17:52 < pmetzger> academia has some bad aspects but it is good at dealing with very long term research better than venture funded stuff. 17:52 < pmetzger> I had a venture funded company for a while, and I don't mind that path, but it isn't suitable for stuff that is going to take decades to come to full fruition. 17:53 < QuantumG> sure, but at some point this stuff has to get out of academia or it never amounts to anything more than an intellectual curiosity 17:53 < pmetzger> Jim von Ehr tried doing the venture route with Zyvex and he simply couldn't hire enough good people. 17:53 < pmetzger> There aren't enough brains out there at the moment, and the usual way to train new brains these days is via academia. 17:53 < pmetzger> At some point you have to leave academia, but I think it may be early for that. 17:53 < QuantumG> how do you get them to want to dedicate the time to do it though? 17:54 < pmetzger> I decided to get a doctorate specifically so I could do research inside academia. 17:54 < pmetzger> Inside academia, you have lots of dedicated researchers in the form of students. 17:54 < pmetzger> and they get trained and go off and spread your ideas. it is kind of a neat system if you are doing interesting work. 17:54 < pmetzger> If this was 1965 I'd say Bell Labs or the equivalent would be a better place 17:54 < QuantumG> this is why I scoff every time someone at NASA says they are inspiring kids into science and engineering and we need more of those students and blah blah blah.. the truth is, there's more lawyers and doctors than scientists and engineers because lawyers and doctors get paid more. 17:54 < pmetzger> but the old industrial research labs are all dead now. 17:55 < pmetzger> and yet we have lots of scientists and engineers, more than ever before. some people find they like it more. 17:55 < pmetzger> I left much higher paying work to do this because I found it more interesting. 17:55 < QuantumG> great, but you'll admit that it's a terrible choice to have to make 17:56 < kanzure> i lost track of the conversation 17:56 < pmetzger> eh, not really. I'm a lot happier than I was doing my old work. 17:56 < QuantumG> there's no inherit need for happy people to earn less 17:56 < cluckj> it's a hard decision, not necessarily a terrible one to have to make 17:56 < pmetzger> BTW, QuantumG, if you've tried to talk to Ralph at meetings, you have probably learned you can't get much out of him that way. 17:56 < QuantumG> pmetzger: it was worse, I was talking through someone 17:57 < pmetzger> QuantumG: The market chooses to pay certain things at certain levels. It isn't really something that we can change. 17:57 < QuantumG> sure it is 17:57 < pmetzger> We live with things as they are, and one thing that simply "is" is the fact that many researchers don't make much money. 17:58 < pmetzger> But it is a lot more fun than the work you have to do for a Wall Street investment bank. 17:58 < pmetzger> (And yes, I've worked for those.) 17:59 < kanzure> so it sounds like the main problem is finding someone with enough organic chemistry and synthetic chemistry to know how to attach stuff to probe tips 17:59 < kanzure> what about biotyn or streptavidin? 17:59 < kanzure> (my molbio background is showing a bit ;-)) 18:00 < pmetzger> Dunno. They're both pretty flexible molecules, and one wants rigidity, but if there are precise ways to attach them to tips... 18:00 < JayDugger> pmetzger: So how does one become skilled at "practical SPM work?" 18:00 < pmetzger> I'd probably say that attaching things to the ends of CNTs may be easier. 18:00 < pmetzger> though I don't know for sure. 18:00 < pmetzger> JayDugger: the only way to become skilled at anything is to do stuff. 18:00 < pmetzger> build an SPM. :) 18:00 < pmetzger> or get one and play. 18:00 < kanzure> and crash it a lot 18:00 < pmetzger> there is no other way. 18:01 < kanzure> lots and lots of crashing 18:01 < JayDugger> Ha! and my girlfriend already complains about lint and dust. 18:01 < JayDugger> I doubt whether she'll go for that particular tool. 18:02 < pmetzger> an SPM doesn't generate dust. 18:02 < JayDugger> I see DIY STM and AFMs, but not SPMs. 18:02 < JayDugger> I realize that. 18:02 < JayDugger> I don't think she'll like my fussing about vacuum and vibration. 18:02 < kanzure> "stop breathing, damn it woman!" 18:02 < JayDugger> Assuming I built one in her home. 18:02 < cluckj> hahaha 18:03 < JayDugger> A fine follow-on project to a book scanner, I suppose. 18:03 < pmetzger> at Columbia, when the #1 train went by, we could see it on the AFM. :) 18:03 < pmetzger> clearly you should build it at a hacker space. :) 18:04 < JayDugger> Heh. I can see it now. "Oh that? We call it the 'Virgil Perch Spike,' named after the cat jumping onto its cat tree." 18:04 < JayDugger> Agreed. One more argument for $NEWJOB. 18:04 < pmetzger> At ExxonMobil, the best units they had were attached directly to the building foundation 18:05 < pmetzger> though they still had an elaborate cushion system above them. 18:05 < JayDugger> I believe it. Mass damps. 18:05 < pmetzger> at Columbia I think we used an inner tube or something. 18:05 < JayDugger> Too bad houses here (DFW) don't come with basements. 18:06 < pmetzger> Anyway, the only way to make any of this stuff work is to learn stuff and do stuff on your own. 18:06 < JayDugger> And the nearest earth-sheltered house isn't for sale. 18:06 < genehacker> I wonder if record player vibration dampers would work for such a thing? 18:06 < JayDugger> Point taken. 18:06 < pmetzger> genehacker: probably a bit 18:06 < pmetzger> I'm kind of sick of people who talk endlessly and don't do. one of the reasons I now spend as much time as possible doing. 18:07 < pmetzger> like for Damian I designed a way to save about 30% on compute cluster construction by running naked motherboards zip tied between metro shelving wire shelves. :) 18:07 < kanzure> diy transhuman tech @ hplus summit 2010 p1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 18:07 < kanzure> p2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 18:08 < genehacker> oh neat the videos are up 18:08 < pmetzger> your presentation and joe jackson's were the ones that gave me the most heart, Bryan. I loved seeing people DOING SHIT. 18:08 < kanzure> thank you, it means a lot to me :) 18:08 < pmetzger> we need a lot more people doing stuff. 18:08 < kanzure> i was worried i didn't have enough ai existentialism in it 18:09 < pmetzger> I'm sick of the "should AIs have rights" talk when we don't know how to do any of this stuff yet. 18:10 < QuantumG> I'm sick of the "I know how to make an AI" talk when the person talking doesn't even know how to code Tetris 18:11 < pmetzger> I'm still kind of amazed at the talk Eliezer Y. gave at Extro 2 or 3 like 15 years ago. 18:11 < kanzure> what was his talk about? 18:11 < pmetzger> He stood up and explained how he was going to make the AI. Then Marvin Minsky stod up and said "we tried all that already and none of it worked" and then EY said "but I'm smarter than you are". 18:11 < kanzure> hahah 18:11 < pmetzger> Well, it has been a decade and a half, still no AI. 18:12 < kanzure> holy fuck, that's totally him 18:12 < kanzure> have you noticed the cult that has formed up around him? 18:12 < pmetzger> Yes. it is hard not to. 18:12 < kanzure> yeah.. 18:12 < pmetzger> I don't dislike him, he's a smart guy. 18:12 < QuantumG> has anyone said that to Goertzel yet? 18:12 < pmetzger> but he should be doing open work etc. 18:13 < kanzure> pmetzger: i really disagree with the whole idea of building an ai first to take over the world to stop some other ai from being first to take over the world 18:13 < pmetzger> AI has improved a lot. Things like the DARPA challenge races are really cool real world results. 18:13 < kanzure> and the general ai-centricism of the singularity institute 18:13 < pmetzger> Bryan: I agree. I don't think it is feasible or desirable. 18:13 < pmetzger> But since I don't think they'll succeed I don't spend much time on it. 18:13 < kanzure> i've been raising VC for taking of the world 18:13 < QuantumG> have I mentioned lately that I'm still waiting for the asshats who are nesting in the OpenCog code to fade away so I can take over that project? 18:13 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/world_domination.html 18:14 < kanzure> (this is humorous, laugh please) 18:14 < pmetzger> I like parts 2 to 4. 18:14 < pmetzger> reminds me of the underwear gnomes from the simpsons. 18:15 < QuantumG> ?? Profit! 18:15 < cluckj> haha 18:15 < pmetzger> In this case, he makes the case for profit at the start 18:15 < pmetzger> the question is how to achieve it. :) 18:16 < kanzure> a robot army of cockroaches funded by Backyard Brains 18:16 < kanzure> pmetzger: social networking (seriously) http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/meetlog.txt 18:16 < kanzure> (starts for real in 2009.. the rest is just imported stuff) 18:16 < pmetzger> what is this? 18:17 < cluckj> kanzure is that the thing you showed me at h+? 18:17 < kanzure> it's a log of everyone that i meet with and talk with 18:17 < kanzure> yes 18:17 < pmetzger> neat. :) 18:17 < pmetzger> I'm not that organized. :| 18:17 < QuantumG> 2009-10-02 phone ben goertzel 18:18 < QuantumG> presumably not first meeting though 18:18 < kanzure> nah, not at all 18:18 < kanzure> that was at singularity summit i think? 18:19 < QuantumG> trent waddington: ["diybio", "#hplusroadmap", "iron man 2", "spacex", "person:elon musk", "sharks", "lasers"] 18:19 < QuantumG> hehe 18:19 < pmetzger> I don't think the "we're working on AGI to bring on the singularity" types are going to succeed anyway. 18:19 < pmetzger> I suspect, this is only a suspicion, that the only techniques that will really work involve things EY et co find taboo like genetic algorithms. 18:19 < kanzure> that's basically "we're shaving yaks to bring on the singularity" 18:20 < kanzure> pmetzger: have you noticed all the zen monk figures that show up on his blogs and try to convince him about genetic algorithms? 18:20 < genehacker> genetic algorithms to do what? 18:20 -!- nchaimov [nchaimov@c-71-237-208-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nchaimov] 18:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/eli.html is my collection of advice that he ignores 18:20 < genehacker> optimize stuff? 18:20 < pmetzger> evolve brains. 18:20 < genehacker> people already do that 18:20 < pmetzger> I think you can evolve intelligent systems -- after all, we're here -- but I'm not sure you can design them deliberately. 18:20 < genehacker> simple brains 18:20 < genehacker> but nonetheless brains 18:20 < kanzure> genehacker: yeah.. but eliezer thinks GAs don't work 18:21 < pmetzger> bigger computers mean better simulations mean bigger evolved systems. 18:21 < kanzure> or that they are a con 18:21 < genehacker> yeah you can, but it might take a while 18:21 < kanzure> or a scam 18:21 < pmetzger> Eliezer doesn't like them because he can't be sure they'll do what he wants. 18:21 < pmetzger> he wants deliberately designed systems so he can force them to be Friendly. 18:21 < kanzure> Mr. Certainty :P 18:21 < QuantumG> I prefer the people who are just completely disconnected from rational thought.. "I've got this program that simulates a worm really well, we should put it on a million networked computers and then we'll have human AI." 18:21 < pmetzger> an evolved system won't necessarily do exactly what he thinks. 18:21 < pmetzger> no one can simulate a worm very well yet. 18:22 < QuantumG> well, it's pretty easy to convince yourself that you can 18:22 < pmetzger> one should never believe something just because one desperately wants it to be true. 18:22 < QuantumG> I mean, what AI researcher is gunna drive to the bait shop? 18:22 < pmetzger> for example, I have to admit that I may never live to see any of this shit come to fruition, as much as I'd like to. 18:23 < pmetzger> A lot of folks like Kurzweill are convinced they'll live for millenia. Me, I'm not quite so optimistic here. 18:23 < pmetzger> all this stuff *can* work, but I don't know that it will be done. 18:23 < kanzure> pmetzger: also, i have some projects leading up to some stem cell therapy stuff 18:23 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/longevity/ <-- read this shit 18:23 < pmetzger> Babbage's designs could have worked a century before equivalent stuff was built, but they never got built. 18:23 < JayDugger> What? Since when does "might" have a different meaning than "will?" ;) 18:24 < JayDugger> We like our confused semantics just fine, sir. ;) 18:24 < kanzure> where should i send the youtube links to? 18:24 < kanzure> i feel like i'm forgetting something 18:24 < pmetzger> I'm happy to see people doing stuff. I hope it will lead somewhere. I hope my own work will lead somewhere. I don't know that it will lead somewhere quickly. 18:25 < kanzure> btw you spend all your time on these things, right? 18:25 < kanzure> because so do we.. just not necessarily only on mnt stuff :) 18:25 < kanzure> or at least me 18:27 < pmetzger> I don't spend all my time on it, but more lately. I am getting a degree in a CS department, so I have a bunch of CS stuff I have to do in addition to my MNT stuff. 18:27 < pmetzger> and I consult part time to pay bills. 18:27 < kanzure> i see 18:27 < pmetzger> I expect that after I get a faculty position, I'll get to spend much of my time on bureaucratic crap. :| 18:28 < cluckj> tenure~~~ 18:28 < pmetzger> There is no perfect world. At least I get to do what I want a lot of the time, which I never did before. 18:28 < pmetzger> After you get tenure, you still are on the treadmill. 18:28 < pmetzger> You need money to pay for your students' tuition and stipends, and to buy equipment etc. 18:28 < pmetzger> if you don't publish and don't write proposals you can't get that. 18:28 < cluckj> you're always on the treadmill whatever you do 18:28 < pmetzger> yup. 18:29 < pmetzger> but at least I get to do what I am interested in much of the time. 18:29 < cluckj> yep :D 18:29 < kanzure> are you sure you want tenure? why not just buy cheap equipment 18:29 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:29 < kanzure> or build it 18:29 < kanzure> hi eridu 18:30 < pmetzger> I didn't get a chance to explain my whole deranged plan to you at H+. Some time over beer at some other conference I'll give you the whole spiel. 18:30 < pmetzger> It is long to type it on IRC. 18:30 < kanzure> okay. or over the phone? 18:30 < cluckj> I'm perfectly okay with teaching and doing research 18:31 < pmetzger> kanzure: that will work too. 18:31 < cluckj> and the lifetime paycheck helps, too 18:31 < kanzure> my skype id is 'kanzure' 18:31 < kanzure> tomorrow there's a diyh+/diybio telecon at 6pm EST 18:31 < kanzure> looks like about 20 participants.. 18:32 < genehacker> anychance I could listen in? 18:33 < pmetzger> I'd be interested in doing that myself. 18:33 < kanzure> genehacker: yeah, of course 18:33 < kanzure> once we figure it out the conference method 18:33 < kanzure> we're going to either do tokbox, drop.io, or a telephone dial-in number 18:35 < pmetzger> can't skype do conference bridges? 18:35 < pmetzger> (I've never tried a large one.) 18:35 < kanzure> apparently only up to 5 people? 18:35 < kanzure> me either 18:36 < pmetzger> clearly one needs a VOIP server in a colo. :) 18:36 < genehacker> I not sure if I'll be able to join in, I might have work to do at that time 18:36 < pmetzger> (that's part joke. I've never tried out asterisk or what have you for this.) 18:38 < pmetzger> back tomorrow. If there is a conference thing and I can play fly on the wall I'd like it. 18:40 < cluckj> kanzure do you think you will record the teleconference? 18:40 < eridu> hello kanzure 18:42 < kanzure> cluckj: i'll do a transcript when i'm not talking, but i don't know how to record on any of the systems.. there's tokbox, drop.io, skype, and a dial in number 18:42 < eridu> say, has anyone here implemented/played with one of these? http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/en/index.html 18:42 < kanzure> pmetzger: yeah i've been meaning to use asterisk for a while now.. 18:43 < pmetzger> On OS X, you can use Audio Hijack to record anything. 18:43 < cluckj> ah, okay I just not supposed to record anything until I have IRB approval (ugh), but I can take notes 18:43 < pmetzger> there must be similar stuff on linux etc. 18:43 < pmetzger> google for it to learn what it does. bbl. 18:47 -!- nchaimov [nchaimov@c-71-237-208-209.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:49 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:53 -!- genehacker [genehacker@wireless-128-62-85-43.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:56 -!- Redeemer [~lorddeeme@c-75-72-237-18.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:57 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:06 < QuantumG> if there's an Earth twin exo-planet found this year then I'm gunna have to become a Singularitian because that's faster than I expected. 19:08 -!- Redeemer [~lorddeeme@c-75-72-237-18.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #hplusroadmap [] 19:12 -!- thesnark [~michael@ppp-69-221-3-3.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:12 < thesnark> hello 19:12 < kanzure> hi thesnark 19:12 < kanzure> just uploaded the youtoob videos 19:13 < thesnark> Woo! 19:13 < kanzure> part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 19:13 < kanzure> part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 19:13 < thesnark> Good, because the stream was not working for me when I tried to watch you =((( 19:14 < thesnark> most prolific communicator =P 19:14 < kanzure> aka "attention whore"? dunno 19:14 < thesnark> No, I don't think people could call you an attention whore 19:14 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:15 < kanzure> genehacker: videos uploaded.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 19:15 < thesnark> Attention whores need to communicate constantly but not have anything to say 19:28 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-80-160.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:29 -!- Roy78 [~Tiger@ip68-11-187-208.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:29 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-87-105-22-81.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:29 < ybit> heyo, what a busy day 19:29 < ybit> kanzure: did you ever setup a gandi account? 19:32 < Ian_Daniher> kanzure: watching your pres on youtube 19:32 < Ian_Daniher> volume sucks :P 19:33 * ybit isn't so opposed to the word 'diy' anymore 19:33 < ybit> the, er, acronym :) 19:38 < thesnark> kanzure that was some enthusiastic cheering at the end...honestly I don't know why - you just gave an overview of your current activities and issues you were facing 19:38 < thesnark> I'm not saying your talk was bad 19:38 < kanzure> i planted them 19:38 < kanzure> that's why. 19:38 < JayDugger> Heh. 19:38 < ybit> :) 19:38 < thesnark> haha 19:39 < ybit> i see diy anything just means non-affiliated with some large institution, which makes me happy 19:39 < cluckj> haha 19:40 < cluckj> planting....pft... 19:40 * cluckj looks innocent 19:40 < ybit> kanzure: we need a set time and a live chat room to chat in... 19:41 < ybit> surely everyone there can point their web browsers to webchat.freenode.net and join this channel or the #diybio channel 19:42 < Ian_Daniher> kanzure: rock on. Your talk got the point accross to my friend, sitting next to me, who's not really familiar with the FOSH / DIY / Transhumanism communities. 19:42 < ybit> drop.io gives you a free # to use... nothing special, but it's simple... 19:43 < ybit> you just specify the name of the page and bam, it gives you free web space to share notes, links, images, and voicemail 19:43 < ybit> dunno much about the others 19:43 < Ian_Daniher> +1 to drop.io 19:43 < cluckj> ybit maybe drop.io + tokbox? 19:43 < Ian_Daniher> I've had really good luck with them before 19:44 < ybit> cluckj: yar, thought about that... 19:44 < ybit> never tried tokbox though 19:44 < ybit> though tokbox only allows you to talk with 20 people 19:44 < ybit> my concern with drop.io is the roaming charges.. 19:45 < cluckj> :o 19:45 < ybit> with google voice, i don't have to worry about that.. 19:46 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48 < kanzure> ybit: i was thinking in here for the conference call, since it's with the transhumanists, OM peeps, and diybio peeps 19:48 < kanzure> yeah, jabber sounds like a good idea.. or we can try doing a large skype call and see if that works 19:49 < kanzure> skype is the common denominator, so we should try that (like right now) 19:49 < kanzure> well, a phone is the common denominator i guess :P 19:49 < ybit> i'm game... 19:50 < ybit> mic doesn't work with skype atm, but i can type 19:50 < ybit> who here wants to try skype now? 19:50 < ybit> cluckj, Ian_Daniher, JayDugger, thesnark 19:50 < cluckj> I don't think I have it installed, hold on 19:50 < ybit> kanzure: 19:50 < kanzure> i'd like to try skype 19:50 < JayDugger> I can't. My commute begins in 10 minutes. 19:56 < ybit> hrm, guess i could get a decent mic before tomorrow instead of using the apple earbuds turned mic 19:58 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone. 19:58 < ybit> gn JayDugger 19:58 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-76-197.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:58 < cluckj> cya 19:58 < kanzure> sso where did that "max 5 callers" thing come from? 19:58 -!- thesnark [~michael@ppp-69-221-3-3.dsl.toldoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58 < ybit> yar 19:58 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:59 < kanzure> http://www.skype.com/intl/en-us/features/allfeatures/conference-calls/ 19:59 < ybit> i recall speaking with ~18 from south america at some point on skype 19:59 < kanzure> south america huh 19:59 < ybit> i was studying spanish.. 19:59 < ybit> learned nothing 20:00 < pmetzger> "Host or participate in free conference calls with up to 25 people. You can include people who are using Skype, and others on phones and mobiles" 20:00 < pmetzger> the limit is 25 20:02 < kanzure> fuck 20:02 < kanzure> i think we might have more than that 20:02 < kanzure> actually, we'll see. it's good if it goes up to the limit 20:02 < ybit> hrm... 20:03 < cluckj> yes :) 20:03 < cluckj> breaking 25 is kind of a good problem, I guess 20:04 < ybit> suggestion: http://drop.io/diygroups as a backup or some other name 20:04 < ybit> if ~15 are getting screwed because of the number limit, we could try the teleconferencing it offers 20:05 < cluckj> word 20:15 -!- ismarc [~ismarc@75-13-88-188.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:15 < kanzure> hi ismarc 20:15 < ismarc> howdy 20:15 < kanzure> ismarc has some thoughts on exoskeleton hydraulic controls 20:15 < kanzure> or valve releases, was it? 20:16 < ismarc> more the sensoring/triggering system for the hydraulics 20:17 < ismarc> The key idea being that generic sensors to determine movement are highly likely to cause physical damage to the recipient without external controls 20:17 < ismarc> the idea is basically lined pockets of fluid that act as highly responsive pressure sensors 20:17 < genehacker> I think that has been done before 20:18 < ismarc> so as the limb increases pressure on one side and reduces on the other, system determines amount of pressure to send, etc. 20:18 < ismarc> and any start of movement too far puts pressure in the opposite direction 20:19 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:19 < ismarc> In my brief searching on it, I couldn't find anything besides descriptions of individual sensors, which kinda surprised me 20:19 < genehacker> it would be better to use such a sensor to sense muscle contraction 20:20 < ismarc> it'd be a lot harder to determine rotation vs. flex type movements on just muscle contraction thought 20:20 < ismarc> err, though 20:21 < genehacker> that's what current exoskeletons do 20:24 < kanzure> rofl http://twitter.com/FakeEliezer 20:24 < kanzure> ahahah 20:24 < kanzure> totally going to follow that 20:29 -!- pmetzger [~perry@69.86.203.77] has quit [Quit: Started wasting time elsewhere] 20:32 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 20:47 -!- danx0r_ [~dbm@c-71-202-164-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49 -!- danx0r [~dbm@c-71-202-164-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:03 < ybit> bahaha, nice find on FakeEliezer 21:03 < ybit> hey danx0r 21:03 < danx0r> hey ybit 21:04 < danx0r> what's up 21:04 < kanzure> i wonder who FakeEliezer is 21:04 < kanzure> i suspect it's pmetzger since he was following the account 21:04 < ybit> danx0r: compiling a list of how many times i've heard someone say they have a plan for a perpetual motion machine 21:05 < danx0r> I had one when I was a teenager 21:05 < kanzure> their perpetual ideas for perpetual motion is a perpetual motion machine, gah 21:05 < danx0r> took me 20 yrs to figure out why it couldn't work 21:05 < kanzure> danx0r: was it a good learning experience? 21:05 < danx0r> and I don't think I'm stupid :) 21:05 < danx0r> yes 21:05 < danx0r> because I knew it had to fail, but I couldn't wrap my head around why 21:05 < danx0r> helped me understand physics better 21:06 < ybit> tat seems to be the exact same for all friends who mention this idea to me 21:06 < ybit> that* 21:06 < danx0r> it was a wheel with magnets, then fixed magnets that would move with cams or some crap like that 21:06 < ybit> hrm, sounds like the same contraption i heard of today 21:06 < danx0r> I still suspect there's some subtle way to use the magnetized state of iron as a battery 21:06 < danx0r> so it would appear to be perp motion but in fact you would increase the entropy by reducing mangetization 21:07 < danx0r> makes sense, right? negative entropy == potential energy 21:07 < danx0r> key would be some non-linearity to grab onto 21:07 < QuantumG> energy density of static magnetic fields isn't exactly high 21:07 < danx0r> QuantumG: sure but it's just the principle 21:08 < danx0r> even if it just kept a pendulum swinging in vacuum for a few hours it would be cool 21:08 < danx0r> and if you don't tell anyone the trick, you could get it on Mythbusters maybe 21:08 < ybit> you too had a pendelum aye? 21:08 < danx0r> well it was a wheel back then, but a pendulum seems more likely 21:08 < danx0r> again to be clear, I realize it isn't actually perpetual ! 21:09 < danx0r> I'm just saying it would be fun to set up a trick machine that was hard to figure out 21:09 -!- splicer [~patrik@h68n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:10 < danx0r> like maybe there's some substance you can interpose between magets, that reduces their field strength? 21:10 < danx0r> so one side of the cycle got a bit more power 21:12 < ybit> danx0r: are you attending the teleconf tomorrow? 21:14 < danx0r> first I heard -- which one? 21:14 < ybit> danx0r: the diy-h+, diybio, openmanufacturing one :) 21:14 < ybit> it's tomorrow around, er.. i think 5pmish, need to double check.. 21:14 < danx0r> sorry, I have to work -- I doubt I can make it 21:14 < danx0r> but send me a link pls 21:15 -!- r1776 [~LOL@li48-79.members.linode.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:15 -!- r1777 [~LOL@li48-79.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15 < danx0r> that's not my main interest -- more into simulation than DIY physical stuff 21:15 < danx0r> (did do robots for a while tho) 21:16 < ybit> danx0r: 5pm CST 21:16 < danx0r> thx 21:16 < danx0r> I think the real world is too restrictive 21:16 < ybit> simulation aye, you should speak with paul fernhoudt or however you spell his name 21:16 < danx0r> in simulation, I can make perpetual motion machines! 21:16 < ybit> :) 21:17 < danx0r> http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/ ? 21:18 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@116.24.45.145] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:20 < kanzure> 5pm CST, 6pm EST 21:20 < danx0r> actually a good simulator would prohibit perpetual motion just like our Universe 21:20 < danx0r> by doing the right thing wrt energy & the 2nd law 21:20 < ybit> danx0r: that's the guy 21:20 < danx0r> but in general simulations don't always respect that stuff 21:22 < ybit> danx0r: pdfernhout@kurtz-fernhout.com is paul's email, that's his main form of comm 21:22 < ybit> give him an email, i'm sure he would like that 21:22 < ybit> btw, kanzure, did you meet him finally? 21:24 < kanzure> why would paul know anything about simulations for this? 21:24 < kanzure> he doesn't. 21:24 < kanzure> but yeah i met up with him 21:24 < kanzure> he's bottom left: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2010/photos/dscn1687.jpg 21:25 < ybit> i don't know what he knows, but i know he prefers simulations 21:26 < ybit> i recognize everyone except for the megan girl 21:26 < kanzure> she hangs out with todd 21:26 < ybit> megan klimen.. /me googles 21:26 < kanzure> todd flies her around to BIL, singularity summit, hplus summit, etc. 21:27 < ybit> if i can't find someone who's been to a ted conf, thinking of going BIL instead 21:28 < danx0r> TED == $6K + invitation 21:28 < danx0r> BIL = $20 + show up 21:28 < danx0r> do the math 21:28 < ybit> TEDx, my apologies 21:28 < ybit> can't have more than a 100 if the organizer hasn't been to a TED conf. 21:28 < kanzure> TED doesn't cost as much if you're giving a talk 21:29 < ybit> figured i'd find someone and make them the official organizer 21:29 < cluckj> one of the profs on my dissertation committee gave a TED talk D: 21:29 < ybit> can he fly to florence, al? ;) 21:30 < kanzure> heh i think the alabama part and the ted part cancel out (KIDDING) 21:30 < ybit> n.n 21:30 < kanzure> leaving just a bunch of hicks, and then ybit 21:30 < kanzure> i'm so mean :( 21:30 < cluckj> hahaha 21:30 < ybit> heh, i actually found someone from the #haskell channel, the guy who formed it here.. he's my co-founder for the hackerspace 21:31 < QuantumG> have you managed to get any output from him? haw haw haw 21:31 < kanzure> >_> 21:31 < ybit> :) 21:31 < kanzure> does he have huge monads? 21:32 < ybit> i'm cracking up over here 21:32 < danx0r> hehe 21:33 < kanzure> http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html 21:34 < ybit> kanzure: ready whenever to transfer openmanufacturing.org over to ya 21:35 < ybit> think i've hindered you long enough, just whenever :) 21:36 < ybit> has anyone actually tried this? http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/05/observing_the_microscopic_world_usi.html 21:36 < ybit> we had a decent fov, 35x45.5?m is what we measured 21:37 < ybit> from the lens in that vid 21:41 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-80-160.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:49 < ybit> "Twitter is a terrible medium, representative of the short attention span set. Even worse than the garbage that is television." -tweets Michael Anissimov 21:50 < QuantumG> what a loser 21:50 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@116.24.45.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:51 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:53 -!- wolfspra1l [~wolfsprau@116.24.218.187] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:54 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-80-216.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:56 < jrayhawk> Twitter messages have a higher expected lifespan than IRC messages, so I guess we're even worse than something that's even worse than television...? 21:57 < QuantumG> if everyone on this channel was talking at the same time I probably wouldn't pay any attention to this channel 21:57 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57 < QuantumG> whereas my twitter feed has >160 people on it, many of whom say at least one thing a day 21:58 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i'm guessing steve isn't a big fan of fake EY 21:58 < QuantumG> how do they maintain my attention? By keeping it short and to the point. 22:00 < jrayhawk> I have heard Steve mildly criticise Eliezer on occasion... 22:00 < kanzure> :) 22:02 -!- Phreedom [~quassel@109.254.6.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03 < jrayhawk> I'm doubting FakeEliezer is/will be sufficiently carefully considered for Steve to give it any sort of stamp of approval, of course, but that's true of basically everything in the universe. 22:04 < kanzure> maybe steve can send in suggestions 22:05 < jrayhawk> I don't think the 140 character limit would get along with those suggestions. 22:05 < kanzure> hah 22:06 < fenn> kanzure: pretty sure i have a copy of nanosystems, if you would reboot tub 22:06 < kanzure> oh i forgot 22:06 * kanzure reboots 22:06 < ybit> s/reboots/performs stability tests 22:06 < kanzure> booting 22:11 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-80-216.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18 -!- wolfspra1l [~wolfsprau@116.24.218.187] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20 < fenn> omg i can't read all this 22:22 < kanzure> all what? 22:24 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-89-240.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:25 < fenn> the huge backlog 22:27 < fenn> gratz on getting on makezine ybit! 22:27 < kanzure> wasn't that a few months ago? 22:27 -!- Ian_Daniher [~it@nat-pool-128-107.olin.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:27 < ybit> thanks fenn, that was ove a month ago 22:28 < ybit> over* 22:29 < ybit> it's decent news for diybio, though i suspect anyone who reads make's blog is already aware of the group 22:30 < fenn> tweaklabs? probably not 22:30 < fenn> there are ~150 hackerspaces 22:30 -!- splicer [~foo@92.39.2.11] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:31 < ybit> well, it's SEA Lab now, Science Engineering and Art Lab 22:31 < fenn> boo 22:31 < ybit> with a an inherent mascot: SEAL 22:32 < fenn> afraid of getting raided by a swat team so you decided to taunt the navy instead? 22:32 < ybit> hrm... and Tweaky looks like a meth bird... and tweaking is making meth... :) 22:32 < ybit> so yar :) 22:32 < ybit> but mostly because it's a rip off of twitter 22:33 < ybit> and the name came about after a few beers and puns with the word 'tweak' 22:36 < jrayhawk> window 6 22:36 < jrayhawk> whoops 22:37 < jrayhawk> I have been cursed with kanzure disease 22:37 < jrayhawk> kanzursed 22:37 < ybit> and it's windows 666, get it right 22:37 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-89-240.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-89-240.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:39 < ybit> i know what all those logos except for the 69 logo? http://arkfab.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/openlab.jpg 22:39 < ybit> 69 + rainbow + swan = ? 23:11 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28 -!- Ian_Daniher [~it@nat-pool-128-107.olin.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:34 < jrayhawk> either the apocalypse or a real good time 23:36 -!- genehacker [~notanemai@cpe-66-68-104-134.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:41 < splicer> I like the iGEM logo