--- Day changed Sun Jun 20 2010
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04:41 < phryk> Mhhh
04:42 < phryk> What is transhumanisms position about androids?
05:09 < faceface> cluckj: yes there is a genetic component to autism, which is why I mentioned it
05:10 < faceface> kanzure: who is russell hanson?
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06:49 < kanzure> faceface: wait, i thought you asked me for his email address?
06:55 < kanzure> heh bre pettis should hold a "make off" competition
07:30 < kanzure> openpcr.org has raised $6.8k
07:31 < uniqanomaly_> kickstarter ftw!
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07:32 < kanzure> well, i don't think they have built anything yet
07:33 < kanzure> so it's kind of like, "woo money"
07:33 < kanzure> not so much ftw
07:33 < kanzure> they haven't even designed it yet
07:36 < uniqanomaly_> well, i was talking just about idea of kickstarter :P
07:37 < uniqanomaly_> we'll see about outcomes
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07:41 < kanzure> andrew talking on synthetic biology at singularityu.org 
07:41 < kanzure> hm
07:42 < kanzure> where did the paste go
07:42 < kanzure> http://youtube.com/watch?v=niQ0kkgPxJk
07:47 < uniqanomaly_> http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v18n1/v18n1-MAPS_24.pdf
07:48 < uniqanomaly_> "Use of LSD-25 for Computer Programming"
07:48 < uniqanomaly_> considering that, illegal drugs are just pathetic
07:49 < uniqanomaly_> considering scientific/technological progress
07:50 < kanzure> someone needs to combine http://www.youtube.com/user/singularityu#p/u/2/15sh05wrQ6Y with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQq_XmhBTgg
07:52 < kanzure> heh a youtube video combiner would be pretty neat in general actually
07:52 < kanzure> or just one for "combining a given youtube video with timothy leary's 'how to operate your brain' video"
07:54 < uniqanomaly_> i guess Timothy Leary totally overdosed lsd, much more than once
07:54 < uniqanomaly_> ;)
07:55 < kanzure> i was just making fun of ray's video :)
07:55 < kanzure> and his monotonous tone
07:55 < uniqanomaly_> oh, ok:)
07:55 < uniqanomaly_> i was thinking rather about BCI + 'using your brain' cocktail ;)
07:56 < uniqanomaly_> totally agree, Kurzweil's not a showman ;)
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08:03 < Utopiah> uniqanomaly_: have you checked http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=10550&ttype=2 ?
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08:05 < uniqanomaly_> Utopiah, yeah, i've heard about it
08:06 < Utopiah> but it's 5 years old now
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10:23 < Utopiah> http://bio-livros.blogspot.com/
10:32 < kanzure> can anyone figure out where the constructor for Model on line 251 of OpenCASCADE6.3.0/ros/src/XSControl/XSControl_WorkSession.cxx is defined?
10:38 < phryk> kanzure: Shouldn't a quick grep with -d recurse help?
10:39 < kanzure> it's a few hundred megabytes of source
10:40 < Utopiah> grep with -d recurse on just *.hh files? (or whatever their format)
10:41 < kanzure> // gka TRJ9 for writing SDR for solid
10:41 < kanzure> wth kinda comment is that :/
10:41 < kanzure> Utopiah: can you read french-written C?
10:42 < kanzure> //Transfert non protege (ainsi, dbx a la main en cas de plantage par Raise)
10:42 < kanzure> although it's not really saying much
10:42 < timschmidt> kanzure: why are you spelunking in OpenCASCADE?
10:42 < timschmidt> it's non-free
10:43 < kanzure> i know :)
10:43 < kanzure> i was curious about how they are doing their read/write operations
10:43 < kanzure> it's ridiculously complicated
10:43 < timschmidt> ah
10:43 < Utopiah> ~ //Tranfer non protected (therefore, dbx done by hand if it crashes by Raise)
10:43 < kanzure> hrm
10:46 < kanzure> down the rabbithole: http://designfiles.org/lab/opencascade/step_export.notes.txt
10:46 < kanzure> timschmidt: ^
10:48 < timschmidt> ah
10:50 < kanzure> i'm up to IFSelect_ReturnStatus theReturnStat = TransferFinder in XSControl_Controller.cxx
10:51 < kanzure> it looks like they try to do this mapping from their internal representation of the model to whatever the target format is
10:51 < kanzure> and that's what the Transfer_Finder and Transfer_FinderProcess stuff is
10:51 < kanzure> but when i go down that rabbit hole, it never seems to lead to RWStepShape or STEP_Controller or anything like that (where the actual STEP definition is)
10:52 < kanzure> (like for individual vertices and other primitives)
10:53 < uniqanomaly_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc :)
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11:00 < kanzure> // Un Modele d`Interface est un ensemble ferme d`Entites d`interface : chacune
11:01 < kanzure> // est dans un seul modele a la fois; elle y a un numero (Number) qui permet de
11:01 < kanzure> // verifier qu`une entite est bien dans un seul modele, de definir des Map tres
11:01 < kanzure> // performantes, de fournir un identifieur numerique
11:01 < kanzure> // Il est a meme d`etre utilise dans des traitements de Graphe
11:01  * kanzure wonders how Matra Datavision hired people.. maybe by roulette?
11:11 < uniqanomaly_> perhaps it's just definition for needs of this particular project, little different than broadly known terms?
11:12 < uniqanomaly_> just a thought
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11:50 < kanzure> what was the difference between TopoDS and TopoDS_Shape? blah
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12:05 < kanzure> woo down the rabbit hole
12:05 < kanzure> i think this is the goods: STEPControl/STEPControl_ActorWrite.cxx
12:10 < kanzure> in particular STEPControl_ActorWrite::TransferShape
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12:22 < kanzure> o wait, RWStepAP214/RWStepAP214_ReadWriteModule.cxx looks much more interesting (especially when you go through the file searching for instances of something like VertexLoop)
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12:24 < kanzure> pcb design tutorial http://alternatezone.com/electronics/pcbdesign.htm
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13:05 < kanzure> looks like AHS is moving out of AHS
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13:54 < kanzure> re: our questions about STEP and parametric constraints
13:54 < kanzure> http://lists.steptools.com/pipermail/st-users/2001/000011.html
14:10 < kanzure> wtf
14:10 < kanzure> http://www.steptools.com/impforum/info.htm
14:10 < kanzure> i wonder who spent all that time making those .gif images for the different APs
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14:37 < uniqanomaly__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SNSPUWnTs LOL
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15:38 < pmetzger> Not much traffic this evening I see.
15:46 < kanzure> ooh, pyExpress
15:46 < pmetzger> pyExpress?
15:56 < kanzure> http://www.mail-archive.com/pythonocc-users@gna.org/msg00975.html
15:56 < kanzure> oh, that looks like a conversation i started
15:56 < kanzure> silly me
15:56 < kanzure> nevermind..
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15:58 < pmetzger> what is EXPRESS?
16:00 < pmetzger> hrm. okay, why do you need a data modeling language?
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16:14 < kanzure> pmetzger: i'm writing a python CSG/solid geometry modeling API
16:14 < kanzure> i'm thinking of using NIST's SCL library to generate some C++, and then wrap that up with swig
16:14 < pmetzger> K.I.S.S. in my opinion
16:15 < kanzure> do you use .step files?
16:15 < pmetzger> have no idea what .step is. :)
16:15 < kanzure> do you know what solid geometry modeling is
16:15 < pmetzger> most certainly. used it for feeding inputs into ray tracers in the old days.
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16:48 < kanzure> ../../../src/clstepcore/sdai.h:358:1: error: pasting "::" and "Application_instance" does not give a valid preprocessing token
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17:03 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
17:04  * kanzure is trying to fix some old school C
17:04 < kanzure> the line: extern SCLP23(Application_instance) NilSTEPentity;
17:04 < kanzure> the error: error: pasting "::" and "Application_instance" does not give a valid preprocessing token
17:06 < uniqanomaly__> http://www.hurr-durr.com/ yay
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17:12 < pmetzger> :: is not a C token.
17:13 < pmetzger> but anyway, if you do cc -E you can look at preprocessor output.
17:13 < pmetzger> (I think it is -E, it has been a while.)
17:13 < pmetzger> yes, -E
17:14 < kanzure> hrm i need to go digging through the make file
17:15 < kanzure> actually, this is through the configure file
17:15 < kanzure> for some reason they are compiling stuff in th configure script?
17:15 < kanzure> s/th/the/
17:15 < pmetzger> configure always compiles stuff.
17:15 < pmetzger> to find out what features the OS supports.
17:15 < pmetzger> test programs of various kinds.
17:15 < kanzure> yeah but it's compiling project-specific files
17:15 < pmetzger> that's more unusual.
17:15 < kanzure> http://www.mel.nist.gov/msid/scl/SCL.htm
17:16 < kanzure> download: http://www.mel.nist.gov/msid/scl/scl3-2.tar.Z
17:16 < pmetzger> oh, my. buzzword overload!
17:16 < kanzure> comparatively, this is way better than steptools.com
17:17 < kanzure> in terms of buzzword overload
17:17 < pmetzger> The only thing that gave me hope was seeing Don Libes' name mentioned halfway down.
17:17 < kanzure> you know the name?
17:17 < JayDugger> Heh...the laity of the cult of the amateur now loots government resources? ;P
17:17 < pmetzger> but it was only mentioned as the author of one small thing
17:18 < kanzure> nah he also did development on the project overall
17:18 < pmetzger> Don was quite famous in certain circles.
17:18 < kanzure> fenn apparently knows josh lubell (another one of the developers)
17:18 < kanzure> or doesn't know him, but hears of him a lot
17:18 < pmetzger> don created Expect.
17:18 < kanzure> yeah, the names on this project seem to be like that..
17:18 < kanzure> a few emc2 developers too
17:18 < JayDugger> Oh?
17:18 < pmetzger> Expect is a tool of great power.
17:18 < kanzure> oh, the "expect this input" tool
17:18 < kanzure> i've used it :)
17:19 < JayDugger> Yes, we used that at a former employer.
17:19 < JayDugger> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Libes
17:19 < pmetzger> Expect scripts ran half the routers on the net for a while.
17:23 < kanzure> CFLAGS=-E make default
17:23 < kanzure> well that didn't work. hrm
17:24 < kanzure> aha, not as one of the CFLAGS
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17:25 < kanzure> YACC: command not found
17:25 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure i have yacc installed :/
17:26 < kanzure> but why would it be trying to call it in ALL CAPS
17:26 < kanzure> oh they want it as an environmental variable? wth kinda config script is this
17:32 < pmetzger> No.
17:32 < pmetzger> YACC is a variable to Make.
17:32 < pmetzger> and you don't want to run CFLAGS=-E in the makefile, that would clearly fail.
17:33 < pmetzger> what are you trying to do exactly?
17:33 < pmetzger> well, YACC is *probably* a make var in this context, but...
17:34 < ybit> kanzure: what is this 'taper' you mentioned as an insufficient hardware license in your talk?
17:36 < ybit> i'm going to be giving a talk on the rise of citizen science @ a TEDx that i'm organizing and gave my aunt a preview this morning. her concern was licensing of some of this stuff, so i figure it makes sense to hit on licensing in the talk
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17:40 < pmetzger> bb tomorrow
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17:44 < kanzure> ybit: TAPR
17:45 < ybit> http://www.tapr.org/ohl.html
17:47 < ybit> i've largely ignored most talks on patents, but it is a relative concern for others it seems 
17:55 < QuantumG> http://quantumg.blogspot.com/2010/06/artificial-general-intelligence.html
18:03 < parolang> Somehow I have a harder time taking people seriously when their avatar has a Matrix Code backdrop :)
18:05 < QuantumG> we're stuck with the iconology of our time
18:06 < parolang> Hah, okay :)
18:06 < JayDugger> No. We've all of history too. Picking a set of icons communicates, just as the icons themselves signify certain things.
18:07 < JayDugger> Think of American evangelical Christians, who use the fish logo. Recycled from early Christians.
18:08 < JayDugger> You can pick anything you like. Picking the code drizzle from recent popular culture means something different from picking Monet's "Water Lilies."
18:10 < parolang> Well, The Matrix's "digital rain" was actually a neat idea; it was meant to represent the combination of nature with technology.
18:10 < parolang> You see this theme all the time in The Matrix trilogy.
18:12 < parolang> But I don't think everyone who splashes the matrix code gets this.
18:12 < JayDugger> A false signified? 
18:12 < parolang> Not sure, I suck as semiology :)
18:13 < parolang> *at
18:13 < JayDugger> No worries. It and semantics both matter where I work--not that most of my co-workers realize it. :)
18:14 < parolang> The odd thing, from a transhumanist perspective, is that science-fiction is generally hostile to h+--*especially* The Matrix movies.
18:14 < parolang> What do you do?
18:15 < JayDugger> I work on flight simulators: machines that simulate aircraft for the sake of training flight crew to handle emergencies.
18:15 < QuantumG> futuristic sci-fi is necessarily wrong
18:15 < parolang> Sci-fi is never meant to be prophecy.
18:15 < parolang> JayDugger: Yep...semioitics :)
18:16 < JayDugger> Exception: Lem, S. "One Human Minute." That borders on satire, however.
18:16 < parolang> I've read and am impressed with C.S. Peirce.  Haven't read much Saussure(sp).
18:16 < QuantumG> one of the reasons why I'd love to see more alternate history sci-fi.. it's less likely to appear outdated after only a few years
18:17 < QuantumG> for example, I'd love to see a sci-fi series about what colonizing the oceans would be like if we had started in the 70s.  Surface, not underwater.. screw you Seaquest.
18:17 < parolang> Dunno, here's Captain Picard's iPads: http://days.illuminous-avantgarde.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/picard-padds-513x366.jpg
18:18 < parolang> I liked SeaQuest :)
18:18 < QuantumG> and he has the facial expression of most iPad users
18:18 < parolang> What facial expression is that?
18:19 < QuantumG> forced smile
18:19 < parolang> I didn't see the smile :)
18:20 < parolang> But...I just hope that desktops and laptops won't be wiped out by the onrush of tablets.
18:21 < parolang> I don't think they will be though...tablets will just, finally, become a viable form factor, which is a net win I guess.
18:23 < parolang> QuantumG: Oh...sorry, I didn't realize that was your post/avatar.
18:23  * parolang feels like a jerk.
18:24 < parolang> Wow, I suck.
18:28 < QuantumG> hehe, no worries
18:29 < QuantumG> I know its cheezy
18:29 < parolang> For what it's worth, I think the post itself is interesting :)
18:29 < parolang> I didn't know you were part of OpenCog.
18:30 < QuantumG> I did some dev.. tried to get them going in a sensible direction.. gave up when the leadership was just completely absent and everyone was more interested in talking about how to optimise stuff when they hadn't even figured out how to make it work yet.
18:31 < JayDugger> QuantumG: Have you read Keith Cowen's "After the Software Wars"?
18:31 < parolang> Early optimization is the root of all evil.
18:31 < parolang> Or something like that :)
18:31 < QuantumG> Keith Curtis?
18:32 < JayDugger> http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?page_id=407
18:32 < QuantumG> and no, I haven't read it
18:32 < QuantumG> looks interesting though
18:32 < JayDugger> If you've read it, or if you know of him, I'd like your opinion on its worth. 
18:33 < JayDugger> I read fast, but that just means I have to limit what I read.
18:33 < JayDugger> The range of what I could read is larger than the range of what deserves reading--and great literature takes work.
18:34 < parolang> Okay...some stupid speculation about strong AI.
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18:35 < parolang> But has anyone considered that one way of considering strong AI is as a program that modifies itself?  Yeah, I know that sounds lame, but there's more to it.
18:36 < QuantumG> most everyone :)
18:36 < Noahj> I'm sure someone has 
18:36 < Noahj> I'm assuming by "considered" you mean "attempted to implement"... um... ed.
18:36 < parolang> Yeah...I realize that everyone has thought it.
18:37 < Noahj> That one quine page had a self-modifying one, I think, my memory might be faulty though
18:37 < Noahj> *checks*
18:37 < parolang> But, what I'm trying to get to is that you consider the AI as a program that modifies itself, but you start with the human being modifying the program.
18:38 < parolang> The programmer develops better and better tools for automating, analyzing, and synthesizing the program.
18:38 < parolang> Until eventually the programmer takes his self out of the picture entirely, and leaves the program towork on itself.
18:38 < Noahj> I guess if program analysis were that far it'd be strong AI! 
18:38 < Noahj> Programs are pretty bad at finding bugs in themselves though 
18:39 < Noahj> And I bet bug-finding modules are even worse at finding bugs in themselves
18:39 < QuantumG> "strong AI" to me is just masturbation.  Either it can do the tasks I want it to do or it can't.
18:39 < parolang> Noahj: Well...depends on what kind of bug.  There are different kinds of bugs.
18:39 < Noahj> Rather, if there's a bug in your bug-finding module you've got to have a bug finding module bug finder to find that bug 
18:39 < Noahj> I'm pretty sure masturbation isn't strong AI
18:39 < Noahj> But perhaps I'm mis-implementing it
18:40 < QuantumG> true, you can define masturbation
18:40 < Noahj> :-D
18:40 < parolang> Noahj: Which is why your referencing "quines" earlier hits the nail on the head.  It's very much a quine-like difficulty, but since quines are possible, a bug-finding module is also possible.
18:40 < Noahj> I'd say if it doesn't do what you want 
18:40 < Noahj> It's strong AI
18:41 < Noahj> Otherwise, it's weaker than you are, for submitting
18:41 < Noahj> http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm < this -the- quine page (apparently)... 
18:41 < Noahj> *scans for self-modification*
18:42 < parolang> Noahj: Yeah, I've studies that, and other quine pages online.
18:42 < Noahj> The polyglots are arguably kinda similar...
18:42 < parolang> *studied
18:42 < Noahj> Except instead of languages A and B it's languages A with bugs and A without :-p
18:42 < parolang> There are a ton of ways of approaching the problem of AI, this is just one that I thought interesting.
18:43 < parolang> Noahj: Well...I think we would need to be more specific about the *kind* of bug.
18:44 < parolang> But generally, a program can be defined by what constitutes failure (defining the program negatively).
18:44 < parolang> A bug is when a program fails when it isn't supposed to fail, or succeeds when it isn't supposed to succeed.
18:44 < Noahj> So if you had a specific set of bugs which outputs a working program 
18:45 < parolang> Like how a search program fails if it doesn't find what it is searching for.
18:46 < parolang> But...there's probably another layer of bugs, and that's when a program's definition doesn't meet it's intent.
18:47 < parolang> The program might work entirely in the way it is defined, but it doesn't perform the way the programmer intended the program to perform.
18:47 < QuantumG> Software Wars is about free software
18:48 < parolang> The program's definition is basically a concept, and the programmer is trying to find the appropriate concept to meet his requirements.
18:48 < parolang> It's conceptual analysis...something philosophers have been doing since Thales.
18:49 < parolang> But for strong AI, we need the program to do the conceptual analysis.
18:50 < QuantumG> the AI section of Software Wars amounts to:  here's an example of something great that has been achieved in AI, where's the code?  locked in a vault.
19:00 < kanzure> wow most boring backlog ever 
19:01 < parolang> Whatever.  Back to lurking.
19:04 < kanzure> Bookmark and Share Scheme for Computing Carbon Weight (footprint) for Manufactured Products Project http://www.nist.gov/mel/msid/dpg/sccwmp.cfm
19:04 < kanzure> haha why does nist.go have a "bookmark and scare" widget :/
19:04 < kanzure> nist is going "social"11one
19:05 < kanzure> Impact of Energy Measurements in Machining Operations http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=905594 (pdf)
19:07 < kanzure> manufacturing animations http://www.mel.nist.gov/msid/avi_downloads.html
19:07 < kanzure> these should be on youtube
19:07 < parolang> Actually, I should take a hint.  Take care fellas.
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19:08 < kanzure> huh?
19:09 < JayDugger> Don't search "NIST" on YouTube. You'll get a lot of 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
19:09 < kanzure> did nist.gov somehow plan/coordinate the attack?
19:11 < JayDugger> Sure. At the behest of Skull & Bones, Mossad, and to fulfill the ancient prophecies that were handed down by the survivors of the exploded planet through the ancient Egyptians through the Masons.
19:12 < JayDugger> I could tell you how, since that came up at my last union meeting--back when I worked for MAJESTIC.
19:12 < JayDugger> :-P
19:12 < JayDugger> Conspiracy theories make good entertainment, but that's about all.
19:13 < kanzure> yep
19:13 < kanzure> 40 MB but 29sec video showing an assembly line for a table saw http://www.nist.gov/msid/transfer/AVI_downloads/bdda.zip
19:14 < kanzure> but the assembly line is not actually shown, just parts flying around everywhere
19:14 < kanzure> for some reason it wouldn't run in mplayer
19:14 < JayDugger> http://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/view/5877/upload-a-video-to-youtube#comment
19:15 < JayDugger> wget or curl to get the videos, something like that commandlinefu to upload to YT?
19:15 < jrayhawk> cclive works pretty well for youtube
19:16 < jrayhawk> and vimeo
19:18 < JayDugger> Time to commute. I have a 23andMe report, plus H+ transcripts to read at $DAYJOB. 
19:18 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
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19:23 < jrayhawk> oh, wrong operation, sorry
19:28 < kanzure> wtf how do you force wget to ignore robots.txt
19:28 < jrayhawk> there's a hidden option
19:28 < kanzure> it's not in the man pages
19:29 < jrayhawk> http://wget.addictivecode.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions#head-badfdf9c2571452db5d048ff7e080a9247cf6b97
19:29 < jrayhawk> thus the definition of "hidden"
19:29 < kanzure> i feel bad since i'm raping archive.org but it's for only a handful of files..
19:29 < kanzure> each which are pretty small
19:29 < jrayhawk> archive.org didn't feel guilty about it when they did it
19:30 < kanzure> yes but i also don't have balls of steel (archive.org spidered those away from me too)
19:30 < jrayhawk> clever bastards
19:30 < kanzure> but i'm pretty happy about this
19:30 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20030216045110/www.nist.gov/sc4/step/parts/
19:30 < kanzure> i <3 nist
19:31 < kanzure> each of these folders would cost me $300+ from ISO or ANSI
19:32 < jrayhawk> ba ha ha that's fantastic
19:33 < QuantumG> kanzure: "Thanks for your comments.  I think we're getting closer to this every day.  Keep tuned."  and that's how you tell a crazy person to go away. Ask Andrew about this skill.  :)
19:33 < kanzure> actually, a lot of his emails to me are like tha--
19:33 < kanzure> wait
19:33 < jrayhawk> I guess the wget developers make it difficult to find that robots option in order to decrease the likelihood that wget gets specifically banned
19:33 < QuantumG> hehe
19:33 < kanzure> jrayhawk: you mean the user agent string?
19:33 < jrayhawk> yeah
19:33 < kanzure> who the hell uses the default user agent string
19:34 < jrayhawk> really they should just alter the user string when they're executing with -e robots=off
19:35 < jrayhawk> and then, you know, document that functionality instead of making you search mailing lists and FAQs and shit
19:35 < QuantumG> I was about to say, that's the option they don't advertise on the man page
19:35 < kanzure> is there a --suck-ass=off option?
19:36 < kanzure> the web needs a deragotory proxy for .deb packages
19:36 < QuantumG> what's annoying is how poorly documented the dont-download-the-shit-I-already-have option is.
19:36 < kanzure> replacing every option with terrible puns and phrases that make your grandma puke
19:37 < QuantumG> -N Turn on time-stamping.
19:37 < kanzure> hm
19:37 < kanzure> haven't heard of that one
19:37 < jrayhawk> basically every gnu utility needs a --suck-ass=off
19:37 < QuantumG> oh, thanks for that, what's that mean?  I know, I'll search for -N on the man page
19:37 < QuantumG> When running Wget without -N, ...
19:37 < QuantumG> ok, no help there
19:38 < kanzure> have you tried reading the source
19:38 < QuantumG> When running Wget with -r, but without -N, ...
19:38 < QuantumG> ok
19:38 < QuantumG> When running Wget with -N, with or without -r, the decision as to
19:38 < QuantumG>            whether or not to download a newer copy of a file depends on the
19:38 < QuantumG>            local and remote timestamp and size of the file.  -nc may not be
19:38 < QuantumG>            specified at the same time as -N.
19:38 < kanzure> oh fooey
19:39 < QuantumG> hehe, I guess if you want to know *how* the decision is made, read the source.
19:39 < kanzure> this isn't going to work
19:39 < kanzure> wget -m -np http://web.archive.org/web/20030216045110/www.nist.gov/sc4/step/parts/ --user-agent="blah" -e robots=off
19:39 < kanzure> because the timestamp changes
19:39 < kanzure> i guess i could do /web/*/blah/blah/blah and hope all of the files are in the index (?)
19:39 < kanzure> but archive.org switches from /web/*/ to some other weird shit in that situation
19:39 < kanzure> (i.e. for pagination it changes from * to 1_tjoi3rj130_2)
19:39 < jrayhawk> every BSD utility needs a --punching-user-in-the-face=no
19:40 < kanzure> and a --also-get-me-booze
19:41 < QuantumG> since when do BSD utilities understand long style options? :)
19:41 < kanzure> since they stopped sucking butt
19:41 < kanzure> hm it occurs to me that QuantumG won't get that
19:42 < kanzure> any ideas on my wget dillema?
19:42 < jrayhawk> i think the concept of sucking butt transcends all cultural boundaries
19:42 < QuantumG> sorry, what are you trying to do?
19:42 < kanzure> QuantumG: i want to download all this shiz: http://web.archive.org/web/20030216045110/www.nist.gov/sc4/step/parts/
19:42 < jrayhawk> using --continue is usually what i do to avoid all this timestampt-brokenness nonsense
19:43 < QuantumG> just wget -r it
19:43 < kanzure> yes but i don't want the parent directories
19:43 < kanzure> i do wget -m -np (mirror, no parent)
19:43 < QuantumG> I don't think wget will do the parent anyway
19:43 < kanzure> sadly, when the timestamp in the url changes, that qualifies as a parent
19:43 < jrayhawk> yes it will
19:43 < QuantumG> suckage
19:44 < QuantumG> so wget -r -np doesn't do what you want?
19:44 < kanzure> because of -np
19:44 < kanzure> i need a conditional -np i guess?
19:45 < QuantumG> sorry, why doesn't -r -np do what you want?  
19:45 < jrayhawk> oh i see, you want some of the files from different timestamps
19:45 < kanzure> -np stops it from downloading the files
19:45 < kanzure> because archive.org has the files linked together in weird, weird ways
19:45 < kanzure> like sometimes it goes back into the future and downloads them
19:45 < kanzure> so it has a different timestamp
19:45 < kanzure> and thus it's a different parent directory to wget
19:46 < QuantumG> oh.. I see
19:46 < QuantumG> yeah, you're screwed
19:46 < QuantumG> ok, do an exclusion on the dir you don't want
19:46 < kanzure> er..
19:46 < kanzure> which is /web/ ?
19:46 < kanzure> but all this stuff is technically on /web
19:47 < jrayhawk> alternatively, you can work out what timestamps you have to worry about, and symlink those to .
19:47 < QuantumG> wget -r -R 'http://web.archive.org/web/20030216045110/http://web.archive.org/sc4/step/' http://web.archive.org/web/20030216045110/www.nist.gov/sc4/step/parts/
19:47 < jrayhawk> and then use --continue
19:47 < QuantumG> that should do something interesting
19:47 < kanzure> QuantumG: no, that doesn't account for the timestamp problem..
19:47 < kanzure> lookie at the url
19:48 < QuantumG> yeah, you're not doing -np
19:48 < QuantumG> you're just rejecting that one url
19:48 < kanzure> yes but during all those downloads archive.org will link you to some stuff on web.archive.org/web/ anyway
19:48 < kanzure> and some other stuff
19:48 < kanzure> i think i'll have to write a little script in perl/python/ruby real quick
19:49 < kanzure> i have a list of timestamps that are relevent
19:50 < kanzure> "acceptable" timestamps i suppose
19:50 < kanzure> maybe this will be better? http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.nist.gov/sc4/step/parts/*
19:50 < kanzure> and each of the files have a link like this: http://web.archive.org/web/*hh_/www.nist.gov/sc4/step/parts/expressx/
19:50 < kanzure> which is then the selection page for which timestamp you want
19:53  * kanzure just tries -r and sees what happens..
20:01 < kanzure> "a standards document.  However, ISO has made a specific exception for the 
20:01 < kanzure> EXPRESS listings and will allow them to be freely available for DIS, FDIS, 
20:01 < kanzure> and IS documents. These files are available for distribution without 
20:01 < kanzure> copyright restrictions (see SOLIS).
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20:07 < kanzure> hi Alystair 
20:08 < Alystair> hullo
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20:39 < kanzure> egeste: i just want you to know
20:39 < kanzure> if i ever make another computer club
20:39 < kanzure> it's totally going to be the cha0s computer club
20:40 < AJollyLife> im pretty sure that names taken :P
20:40 < kanzure> no no, it's chaos computer club
20:40 < kanzure> cha0s is my cat
20:40 < kanzure> http://austin.craigslist.org/pet/1707606407.html
20:41 < AJollyLife> aw. why are you getting rid of your cat?
20:45 < kanzure> that was egeste
20:46 < jcluck> it's your cat, now
20:46 < kanzure> guys this wasn't the most complicated joke ever
20:47 < kanzure> egeste gave me a cat
20:47 < kanzure> i have cat now
20:47 < kanzure> the name of the cat is cha0s
20:47 < kanzure> cha0s computer club :/
20:48 < genehacker> cat wearable computers?
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21:10 < Alystair> why anyone would get a pet is beyond me D:
21:11 < jcluck> I want to get a frilled dragon :o
21:11 < genehacker> I for one want some pet bacteria cultures
21:12 < genehacker> that produce useful proteins
21:12 < jcluck> hehe
21:13 < genehacker> pet bacteria weren't excluded from my apartment lease either
21:13 < QuantumG> I have two pet fish that chase each other when they think no-one is looking.
21:13 < kanzure> genehacker: yes but neither were humans
21:13 < genehacker> they were
21:14 < genehacker> I'm not so sure I'm going to keep bacteria as pets
21:14 < genehacker> not without any containment failure self-destruct device that's for sure
21:14 < AJollyLife> meh, i like pets, i just travel far too much to make it easy
21:14 < jcluck> keep some yogurt as a pet
21:15 < Alystair> hahaha
21:15 < genehacker> yogurt bacteria aren't the model bacteria
21:15 < QuantumG> yeah, I looked at automatic fish feeders and they all suck.. I tried to make my own and rediscovered how much I suck.
21:15 < genehacker> how do they suck?
21:15 < Alystair> the trick is not to own fish
21:15 < Alystair> get a mantis shrimp instead
21:16 < jcluck> they're the model bacteria for f'n eating!
21:16 < jcluck> mmmm
21:16 < kanzure> a friend of mine owns a fucking octopus
21:16 < kanzure> me, i want a shark
21:16 < kanzure> at the hackerspace
21:16 < jcluck> eat ya pets
21:16 < Alystair> the coolest of all crustaceans
21:16 < QuantumG> genehacker: not hackable, not reliable
21:16 < Alystair> kanzure: octopus have a lifespan of about 2 years tops
21:16 < genehacker> double redundancy FTW
21:16 < Alystair> at least they are pretty smart
21:17 < Alystair> anyway check em' out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantis_shrimp
21:17 < Alystair> neither mantis nor shrimp!
21:17 < genehacker> kanzure would you want that one shark that has optical cameouflage?
21:17 < Alystair> has the worlds most complex eye
21:17 < genehacker> it harbors glowing bacteria
21:17 < kanzure> which shark has cameouflage? the t-head?
21:18 < kanzure> hrm
21:18 < genehacker> http://news.discovery.com/animals/sharks-invisible-light-luminescence.html
21:18 < genehacker> it hardly looks like a shark
21:18 < kanzure> i was reading an infrared fluorescent protein paper the other day
21:19  * kanzure wants a high-infrared fluorescent protein
21:19 < genehacker> why high infrared?
21:19 < kanzure> to get information out of the skull
21:19 < kanzure> at about 10 micron wavelengths the skull starts acting as a waveguide
21:19 < genehacker> emit light in the infrared range?
21:19 < kanzure> there's one that is "low infrared" (less than 1 micron)
21:20 < genehacker> emit light when excited by infrared?
21:20 < genehacker> you'd need reverse fluorescence to do that
21:20 < kanzure> no, the excitation is something else
21:20 < kanzure> wait
21:20 < kanzure> uh
21:20 < kanzure> i should check this
21:20 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/papers/Mammalian%20expression%20of%20infrared%20fluorescent%20proteins%20engineered%20from%20a%20bacterial%20phytochrome.pdf
21:20 < kanzure> 900nm
21:21 < kanzure> yeah, so it's not the excitation part
21:21 < kanzure> just hook up some calcium trigger or something
21:22 < genehacker> why do you want to go through the skull like that?
21:22 < genehacker> just pipe in an optical fiber
21:23 < kanzure> what was that optical fiber BCI name? it wasn't "EPOC" (that was the Emotiv crap)
21:23 < genehacker> never heard of anything commercial
21:26 < kanzure> it wasn't
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23:16 < AJollyLife> this is totally tooting my own horn, but I really like some of my photos from h+
23:18 < QuantumG> url?
23:18 < AJollyLife> not all posted yet
23:18 < AJollyLife> the ones from the first day are, i'm looking through the day2 photos now, and will upload them overnight :)
23:19 < AJollyLife> but they will be here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajolly/sets/72157624141398171/
23:22 < QuantumG> thanks