--- Day changed Fri Jun 25 2010
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03:41 < kanzure> http://twitter.com/search?q=%23singularityu
03:41 < kanzure> looks like they want to revive the nematode upload project
03:44 < kanzure> dan barry wants retirement homes in space
03:44 < kanzure> "We will sell more one-way tickets to space than round-trip Who will buy them? The elderly and the disabled."
03:44 < kanzure> "We'll collect your life insurance, launch a hospice in space, and send you as a shooting star above your funeral."
03:44 < kanzure> ha ha
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04:08 < kanzure> "for bonus points, we'll do it when you're in cryostasis, so we can eventually catch up to you and thaw your body"
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05:28 < splicer> h+ ... it's for people who like acid 
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09:13 < kanzure> i wonder if disney would invest in making a theme park on the moon
09:24 < pmetzger> it is unlikely to meet their ROI at the moment.
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09:53 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
09:57 < pmetzger> good afternoon.
10:05 < fenn> i'm currently sitting next to steve rayhawk @ http://drupal.mscomp.org/orcp2010
10:08 < pmetzger> looks like a fun set of talks.
10:09 < pmetzger> I'd be interested in what looks like the highest performance platform discussed for high performance computation...
10:09 < Utopiah> high perf computation?
10:09 < Utopiah> like meteorology?
10:09 < Utopiah> http://www.top500.org/
10:17 < pmetzger> HPC = scientific computing of all sorts, including computational chemistry (which is my interest here)
10:21 < kanzure> fenn: say hi to steve for me :)
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10:44 < kanzure> diybio-leuven taking off? http://www.securitynewsportal.com/securitytwits/article.php?title=security4all_Actually_its_tonight_June_25th_8pm_at_the_Universum._diybio_leuven_via_at_maradydd
10:46 < kanzure> diy microscopes hall of fame http://hackteria.org/?p=241
10:46 < kanzure> someone from singularityu.org (david dalrymple) mentioned to me a nematode upload project
10:46 < kanzure> so i had to remind him about http://web.archive.org/web/20080520053440/http://minduploading.org/research.html
10:46 < kanzure> pmetzger: were you around for that? eugen was involved in it, somehow
11:11 < fenn> hee @ langton people meet siai people
11:13 < fenn> why is the nematode upload page gone?
11:13 < fenn> "we dont want to accidentally give off the impression of actually doing useful research"
11:17 < fenn> sphinx for documentation http://sphinx.pocoo.org/
11:17 < fenn> seems like i've asked this question of "how to make good text/html/pdf documentation" and never got a good answer, sphinx might be it
11:18 < fenn> also, cython is badass
11:18 < kanzure> sphinx is a pretty standard python documentation tool..
11:18 < pmetzger> I wasn't around/involved in the nematode thing, no.
11:18 < kanzure> gah you're just leanring about cython?
11:18 < fenn> pmetzger: you should check out cython
11:18 < fenn> kanzure: no, but it seems to have improved and become more mature since i last looked at it
11:19 < kanzure> ah
11:19 < kanzure> okay, i feel better :P
11:19 < kanzure> fenn: did the langton people just totally assrape the siai people? :)
11:19 < fenn> it used to just be a fork of pyrex, but now it's actually a python module instead of its own language
11:19 < fenn> i dunno, they all sort of rushed out of the room.. silly me is watching the conference talk
11:20 < kanzure> the nematode upload project was eugen leitl and randal a. koene (randal is now working at halycon molecular)
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11:23 < fenn> a video i recorded yesterday, lee felsenstein talks about designing the osborne-1 luggable computer, and the silly business stuff around it: http://vimeo.com/12854256
11:23 < fenn> sort of reminded me of the makerbot scene
11:23 < fenn> in 1981
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11:24 < kanzure> elevenarms and i found this "DARPA" computer in a case.. it was literally a box with a keyboard that flipped out
11:24 < kanzure> a "luggable luggage" computer
11:26 < Utopiah> rugged laptops?
11:26 < kanzure> well, not the one i saw :P
11:26 < kanzure> it was more like a mini-atx board in side of a brief case
11:27 < kanzure> with a monitor built into the side
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11:31 < mheld> hey y'all
11:31 < kanzure> hi mheld 
11:31 < mheld> hey kanzure 
11:31 < kanzure> we were talking about a nematode mind uploading project
11:31 < mheld> what's going on?
11:31 < mheld> ooh!
11:31 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20080520053440/http://minduploading.org/research.html
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11:33 < kanzure> hi Joeconyers 
11:33 < kanzure> this is a secret front for a world domination task force
11:33 < fenn> did anyone know that matplotlib came out of a brain electrode implant visualization project? (john hunter)
11:33 < kanzure> i've tried matplotlib a few times, it's .. quirky
11:34 < Joeconyers> kanzure: so I'm in the right place?
11:34 < kanzure> Joeconyers: absolutely
11:34 < kanzure> indoctrination part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8
11:34 < kanzure> indoctrination part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8
11:40 < fenn> this is just neato http://www.archive.org/details/scipy09_day1_05-Andrew_Straw
11:41 < Joeconyers> kanzure: great stuff
11:41 < fenn> hmm seems to be the whole talk. anyway, they're projecting images of an opengl cylinder with texture mapping on 4 walls of a box, to trick the fruit fly into staying within a small virtual cylindrical volume inside the box
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11:52 < lepton> So I'm gonna be giving a talk on open hardware at Burning Man this year
11:52 < kanzure> cool.
11:52 < lepton> Just got off the phone with someone to get it in the event directory
11:53 < lepton> I'm interested in trying to get other people to contribute, join
11:54 < fenn> lol.. some student was banned from using their cluster because he used all the matlab licenses in parallel so nobody else could use matlab when his job was running
11:59 < kanzure> ybit: why aren't you talking to me in here
12:04 < ybit> here i be
12:04 < kanzure> so, ybit contacted me today to talk about how a lot of different people behind diybio are making kit stores
12:04 < ybit> so kanzure and i were talking about so many people wanting to start kit stores around diy science
12:04 < kanzure> to me, it seems like a landrush
12:05 < kanzure> fundamentally for anyone making a kit store, the number one importance is sales, marketing, promotion
12:05 < ybit> it might be a landrush, but if it gets people involved, it might not be too terrible
12:06 < ybit> i don't know, adafruit does a good job of not being shitty
12:06 < kanzure> that's not what i'm seeing
12:06 < kanzure> instead what i'm seeing is people going behind each other's backs to work on *their* super-awesome kit store
12:06 < kanzure> jacob shiach was perhaps the first public figure to start this off
12:06 < kanzure> tito did it a little bit, but everyone knows how terrible his products are
12:06 < ybit> if someone wants to start a store, why is this a bad thing?
12:07 < kanzure> it's not a bad thing- what i'm seeing though is their behavior
12:07 < ybit> when i was talking with bobe earlier today, it seems mac has the same idea of giving people who come up with kits a chunk of the money
12:07 < kanzure> i.e., promises for involving multiple people andn ot following through
12:07 < kanzure> i.e. territorial behavior
12:07 < kanzure> yes but that's mac's version of a store
12:07 < kanzure> in that version, he wants to do a startup and put the kit makers as cofounders (for about 10 people)
12:07 < ybit> i was looking @ giving 33% of a cut as well
12:08 < kanzure> btw are these open hardware kits that you're talking about?
12:08 < ybit> the co-op idea is awesome, but as i mentioned earlier, i don't know how i could live on that kind of income
12:08 < kanzure> what income are you thinking of
12:08 < ybit> with a store here, i can sell locally
12:09 < kanzure> why wouldn't you be able to sell locally anyway
12:09 < ybit> i'm looking into making a store to sell open science kits
12:09 < kanzure> but it sounds like they aren't too "open" if there's some proprietary nugget that the inventor gets licensing rights for (33% apparently)
12:10 < kanzure> *inventor gives licensing rights for
12:10 < ybit> licensing is another issue, i like TAPR 
12:11 < kanzure> then why would the "inventor" get a percentage of all sales?
12:11 < ybit> the way i figured, 33% would give the tinkerer money for their cool projects but also allow me and allow me to continue making these kits.. you have to pay your fellow workers money to work ya know 
12:11 < kanzure> yes but imho it doesn't sound like you've thought about this a lot
12:11 < kanzure> anyone can just take an open hardware kit and go sell it elsewhere, even if they aren't the inventor
12:12 < ybit> i estimated that i can only make $20k/yr and have about 4 others making the same
12:12 < kanzure> so you're not going to become rich because you had the "first idea"
12:12 < ybit> i'm not trying to be rich obviously good sir, $20k isn't much :)
12:12 < kanzure> who cares
12:13 < kanzure> $20k could be obtained through other means than licensing your kits in exchange for a percentage of their sales
12:13 < ybit> what about a business being involved with the co-op?
12:13 < kanzure> hm? what about it?
12:14 < ybit> i'm not seeing the other means currently on how one could obtain ~$15-20k/year 
12:14 < kanzure> suppose this situation: you get paid a salary (or a lump sum) to work on new kits
12:15 < kanzure> then, an "affiliate marketing" network is in place for commission-based incentives on kit sales
12:16 < ybit> well, i think you are kind of peeved about someone overlooking the co-op, i don't want to overlook the co-op.. i came to you, i'm going to each person individually to see how we can cooperate, doing my best to make sure everyone is on good terms... 
12:16 < kanzure> imho the business model you've proposed to me sounds incompatible with TAPR and so on
12:16 < ybit> how so?
12:16 < ybit> what you mentioned above sounds exactly like what i and mac are planning
12:16 < kanzure> the licensing where you get 33% of all sales for the kit via the license
12:17 < kanzure> ha ha, i doubt it
12:17 < kanzure> i talked with mac about it
12:17 < kanzure> why is mac planning with you anyway? this should all be public
12:17 < ybit> sorry, one sec while i get comfy
12:17 < ybit> @ rivertown coffee shop
12:18 < ybit> okay
12:18 < ybit> i haven't talked with mac yet, bobe directed me to him since we both have similar efforts underway....
12:18 < ybit> guess i will have to RTFM about TAPR and why the 33% idea is incompatible
12:18 < kanzure> because it's an exclusive license for them to sell the kit
12:19 < kanzure> (with some contractual arrangements)
12:19 < ybit> hrm
12:19 < kanzure> if i may make a prediction
12:19 < ybit> yes sir?
12:19 < kanzure> i suspect that the majority of the community who each want to individually make their own kit store
12:19 < kanzure> are really genuinely interested in selling kits
12:20 < kanzure> regardless of whether or not they are open source hardware kits or not
12:20 < kanzure> after all, the community this is coming from is diybio, which while has some open source roots, it primarily does not
12:20 < ybit> hrm, i dunno
12:20 < ybit> my entire life is dedicated to open everything
12:20 < kanzure> yeah, there are a few people who want to do open source hardware kits
12:20 < kanzure> but look at i.e. scitoys
12:21 < ybit> brb, need some water
12:21 < kanzure> so anyway, if you find out that the co-op is actually what mac wants to do, that would be great
12:21 < kanzure> and we should try to channel and focus efforts together instead of doing different things
12:22 < kanzure> however, i was talking with mac at hplus summit, and he was saying things like he wanted maybe up to 10 kit makers to be cofounders on a startup
12:22 < kanzure> and some other things that seemed mutually inconsistent at the time that i couldn't write down (we were walking+talking)
12:23 < kanzure> ybit: can you give me the list of people you're talking about?
12:26 < lepton> I'm jumping in here when I should really be focused on my EMC2 bring up, but I'm thinking that selling completely build open source products is a more viable avenue than kits
12:26 < kanzure> sure, that's definitely something that a kit store should do
12:26 < lepton> There are often more people that want something built and working NOW, who don't have the capacity/time to build it themselves
12:26 < ybit> right
12:27 < ybit> i think that's a given on these kind of stores
12:27 < lepton> and even if something is open, there's a learning curve to making it efficiently and well
12:27 < ybit> kind of the way makerbot industries does it
12:27 < lepton> yeah, that's a good example
12:28 < ybit> so how can we make this work?
12:30 < ybit> a few kits we are working on here, microbial fuel cell kit (seems mac is further along than we are), cheap arduino based microscope ala hackteria, stm, weather monitoring via vlf receivers
12:31 < ybit> ordered some su-8 today, don't have the money currently to start making the stuff myself, but we are going to experiment with some the microfluidics stuff
12:31 < kanzure> how are you going to pattern the su-8?
12:31 < ybit> hehe
12:31 < ybit> microsoft.xxx
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12:32 < ybit> kanzure: i'm not sure yet
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12:33 < lepton_> How can systems like kickstarter fit in?
12:33 < kanzure> lepton_: well, what i was doing for a while was writing an open source kickstarter
12:33 < ybit> lepton_: i didn't know this
12:33 < kanzure> where the projects would be git repositories, and as they get funded and go down the milestones, they turn into something that can be sold
12:34 < kanzure> and then it's just like ikiwiki- anyone could just download all of the hardware projects and setup their own branded store
12:34 < kanzure> (since everyone wants that)
12:34 < ybit> heh
12:34 < lepton_> ybit: check out kickstarter.com
12:34 < ybit> lepton_: i'm quite familiar
12:34 < kanzure> i'm sure ybit knows about kickstarter
12:34 < lepton_> gotcha
12:35 < lepton_> kanzure: I think having a structure for projects having public repos is a very important thing
12:35  * kanzure nods
12:35 < ybit> yup
12:35 < lepton_> there are a lot of "open hardware" projects that don't have any data posted at all!
12:35 < ybit> uhuh
12:35 < lepton_> Like the "Open CNC Center" that MFG funded
12:35 < kanzure> lepton_: i've talked with mitch about that
12:35 < kanzure> but didn't get anywhere
12:35 < lepton_> That's makes me sad
12:36 < ybit> btw, i finally got the spikerbox schematic yesterday
12:36 < ybit> was damn near impossible to find on the site :)
12:36 < kanzure> paul also talked with mitch back in 2004 or something
12:36 < kanzure> and also didn't get anywhere :P
12:36 < ybit> but both tim and greg are cool guys
12:36 < ybit> yar, it was impossible to get in touch with mitch
12:37 < ybit> they seemingly still have the files though
12:37 < ybit> cad files*
12:37 < kanzure> it doesn't matter that much, the design isn't particularly stunning anyway
12:37 < lepton_> nah
12:37 < lepton_> We're actually gonna be working on something very similar this year >:)
12:37 < lepton_> Or we expect to
12:38 < lepton_> First half of this year was becoming half way decent CNC machinists, now we're working on becoming half way decent EMC2 users
12:38 < lepton_> once we cross that hurdle we can start doing more exciting things
12:38 < lepton_> but I digress...
12:39 < ybit> somoene mentioned this in the co-op google doc: "
12:39 < ybit> Third parties, like small and mid-sized businesses might join the co-op to increase their available infrastructure."
12:40 < kanzure> one idea that was pitched to me was equipment rentals
12:40 < kanzure> ybit: do you know how affiliate marketing works?
12:41 < ybit> i'm familiar yes
12:41 < kanzure> did i or.. uh
12:41 < ybit> don't have exp in it though
12:41 < kanzure> okay, so you get the idea of people taking 30% commissions or something per sale or whatever
12:41 < ybit> yes, you told me about that
12:41 < kanzure> and routing in massi-- okay. good.
12:41 < kanzure> guess i forgot
12:41 < ybit> er.. wait, i was speaking of spam :)
12:42 < kanzure> yeah, not spam
12:42 < ybit> okay, carry on then :)
12:42 < kanzure> okay, so there's a number of 'affiliate marketing websites' out there
12:42 < kanzure> like clickbank, hydra networks, etc.-- i counted about 150 of them in early 2010
12:42 < kanzure> people who sell products go to these networks and setup a deal, like a percentage on each sale
12:42 < kanzure> then the affiliate marketers register on the site, and get a few links that they send their customers towards
12:43 < kanzure> and if the customer buys through that link, the affiliate gets the commission
12:43 < kanzure> typical commission stuff. even amazon has an affiliate program.
12:43 < kanzure> so, one idea is to do this with the co-op
12:43 < kanzure> the co-op would have a kit store that focuses on branding and obsessive ease-of-use
12:44 < kanzure> and an army of salesmen who are automated through this sort of affiliate system
12:44 < kanzure> money from the sales would go back to cover the manufacturing and materials cost
12:44 < kanzure> and then to fund the people who are making/designing new kits and doing various other ridiculously awesome projects
12:44 < kanzure> fenn and i were talking the other day about a potential funding mechanism or way of dolling out funds within the co-op
12:44 < kanzure> maybe individual kit designers get a salary or per-project lump sum
12:45 < kanzure> or, we start off with microgrants + something like kickstarter
12:45 < lepton_> or a cut of kit sales?
12:45 < kanzure> the way the microgrants would work is someone would submit a proposal for funding, and we'd consider it and give them, say, $50 for their first project
12:45 < kanzure> if they are successful, they could submit a grant asking for $100 next time, and it keeps doubling like that
12:46 < kanzure> this way, we can filter people who can get stuff done
12:46 < ybit> a cut of kit sales
12:46 < kanzure> why
12:46 < ybit> or not, i dunno.. that seems the easiest way 
12:46 < kanzure> if a kit developer wants a cut of kit sales, he should just be all closed source
12:46 < lepton_> The increasing tiers of grants based on previous project success is an interesting motivator of people to jump in
12:47 < kanzure> lepton_: :)
12:47 < lepton_> and do good work from the start
12:47 < kanzure> and it has like zero risk for me
12:47 < lepton_> I'd be pretty stoked to see a working system like that
12:47 < kanzure> so what if i lose $50 on a bunch of crummy projects? at least i know those people don't perform
12:47 < kanzure> $50 is like a dinner, chump change
12:47 < lepton_> Wow, you eat fancy dinners
12:47 < lepton_> :p
12:47 < ybit> $50 is what i'm living on for the next month
12:47 < kanzure> or i'm horrendously fat
12:47 < kanzure> :P
12:48 < lepton_> I feel 'ya ybit, I'm on the start up company diet
12:48 < kanzure> raman?
12:48 < ybit> caloric restriction ftw
12:48 < lepton_> At least a pretty girl feed me ceral this morning :)
12:48 < kanzure> fed
12:48 < lepton_> feed me cereal
12:48 < ybit> the coffee shop is good about giving me cheap coffee and water
12:48 < lepton_> yeah, me no type so good
12:49 < lepton_> fed*
12:49 < lepton_> damn!
12:49 < ybit> :)
12:50 < bkero> c0ffee
12:50 < ybit> so i want to help with the co-op, who doesn't.. i think everyone likes the idea... i'm going to start selling repraps me thinks..how does this fit in the co-op model?
12:50 < kanzure> would you be building the repraps?
12:50 < ybit> yes
12:50 < kanzure> well, at the very least, time/salary+material for the building
12:50 < lepton_> But is it worth it to sell reraps when you could make something different and sell that?
12:51 < ybit> lepton_: i estimate that i can make $120k year
12:51 < lepton_> really?
12:51 < ybit> yes
12:51 < ybit> that pays for five people working full-time and inventing new open kits
12:51 < ybit> kits/projects
12:52 < lepton_> That'd be pretty great, and I know people are having a hard time sourcing reprap parts, but what makes you think there's that much of a market?
12:52 < lepton_> I'm just playing the skeptic :)
12:52 < Utopiah> ybit: if you go for co-op biz, you might want to considerate http://www.lovemachineinc.com/2010/03/the-rewarder-a-better-kind-of-bonus-system/ model
12:52 < kanzure> ybit: i don't know if a cut of some certain kit's sales would make sense in the co-op or not
12:52 < kanzure> i want to hear what fenn thinks
12:53 < kanzure> it's certainly a motivator for the person designing up a new kit
12:53 < ybit> that's the business idea... selling repraps and using that money to fund projects
12:53 < kanzure> lepton_: the weird thing is that i already have funding for the co-op microgrant rounds
12:53 < kanzure> but i don't want to spend it on rent or recurring expenses like hackerspace memberships
12:54 < ybit> so kanzure, fenn..how does this business model fit in with the co-op?
12:54 < kanzure> which one?
12:54 < kanzure> selling repraps?
12:54 < ybit> yar
12:55 < kanzure> i thought i just explained
12:55 < lepton_> So why not spend it on people who already have *some* resources and deal with rent and such themselves?
12:55 < kanzure> but maybe not
12:55 < kanzure> ybit: repraps would be sold through the co-op's salesforce, kit store, but of course also any other kit store you can get it into
12:55 < kanzure> (or ebay for instance)
12:56 < kanzure> sales through the co-op would have a percentage cut off for the affiliate marketer, and another percent cut off for the co-op
12:56 < kanzure> and at least a materials/time calculation somewhere in there
12:56 < lepton_> kanzure: is the workflow: microgrant > viable kit > co-op sales force, marketing partners, etc
12:56 < kanzure> seems to be, but i'm open to suggestions
12:56 < ybit> how does the co-op get money from this exactly? the salesforce, whoever that is... gets a cut... the original project starter guy/gal gets a cut... how does the co-op suffice?
12:57 < kanzure> say the final price of a kit is $100
12:57 < ybit> s/suffice/survive
12:57 < kanzure> an affiliate marketer gets someone to buy it, and takes 20% ($20)
12:57 < lepton_> It almost seems like there needs to be an element just focused on building the stuff. If something gets popular you've gotta start committing machines to production for extended periods of time
12:57 < kanzure> then there's $80 left
12:57 < lepton_> Seems like the 100k garages model of distrubting production can fit in there
12:57 < kanzure> let's say it cost $50 to build in time/parts
12:57 < kanzure> so now there's $30 left
12:57 < kanzure> that $30 would go to the co-op, or some other negotiated rate i guess (?)
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12:58 < ybit> the co-op needs this explained simply on the site, the site also needs a facelift, it's kind of ugly :)
12:59 < kanzure> yeah, well, i seem to be unable to hire damn web designers
12:59 < ybit> for some reason ugly sites don't look legit
12:59 < kanzure> i should probably just post something up on 99designs.com
12:59 < kanzure> mac has always been better at branding
12:59 < kanzure> i'm not sure if the gnusha name should stick ;)
13:00 < ybit> yar, it's a cute mascot, not sure about the name though :)
13:00 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
13:00 < pmetzger> http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470112697.html
13:00 < ybit> reading Utopiah's and pmetzger's linked articles..
13:01 < kanzure> pmetzger: um, why did you link to that?
13:02 < pmetzger> anyone starting an enterprise should go through the exercise.
13:02 < pmetzger> it is a valuable reality check.
13:02 < kanzure> pmetzger: i feel like you might be lacking a lot of context here
13:02 < ybit> Utopiah: sounds like the model i have in mind :)
13:03 < pmetzger> it doesn't matter if an organization is small or large, nonprofit or profit, etc., it is always good to formally figure out all the parameters.
13:03 < ybit> pmetzger: working on the business plan good sir
13:03 < kanzure> pmetzger: yes, that's true, but why are you telling us this
13:03 < kanzure> $TRUE_FACT
13:03 < ybit> as well as the whitepaper
13:03 < pmetzger> you guys all started discussing what are essentially parts of business plans. :)
13:04 < ybit> yup
13:04 < kanzure> so?
13:04 < pmetzger> but there were all sorts of missing assumptions, like, if you think you can make X doing Y, what are the assumptions that go into that...
13:04 < ybit> yup
13:04 < pmetzger> anyway, never mind.
13:04 < kanzure> ybit: stop being a yes man
13:04 < ybit> :)
13:04 < ybit> i'll quit with the yesses and emoticons for awhile 
13:04 < pmetzger> I just think it is a good book for the purpose, it is what I've used in the past.
13:04 < kanzure> ybit: i suspect pmetzger hasn't done a business plan for open source hardware
13:04 < kanzure> ah okay
13:04 < pmetzger> I've done one for open source software.
13:05 < kanzure> it was a book recommendation. got it.
13:05 < ybit> i was writing one for the hackerspace here, but decided that i was actually wanting it to be for a busineess to promote open science.. so it's been turned into humcie
13:05 < pmetzger> well, more than one, but one got funded and launched.
13:05 < ybit> pmetzger: what was it?
13:05 < pmetzger> the company? dead now. "Wasabi Systems".
13:06 < kanzure> mm wasabi
13:06 < ybit> the software, is it still around?
13:06 < pmetzger> Long ugly story.
13:06 < ybit> kanzure: hehe
13:06 < pmetzger> The software was NetBSD, so yes.
13:06 < ybit> kanzure: i'm thinking about you in l.a. making your anime reference
13:06 < kanzure> anime reference? which one did i make
13:07 < ybit> kanzure: naruto iirc
13:07 < ybit> while eating sushi...
13:13 < kanzure> ybit: if you want to find a graphics web designer person for me, i have money to pay for something to get done for the co-op website
13:13 < kanzure> but without knowing what the branding might end up as, that might not be appropriate
13:13 < kanzure> i could also just steal a layout from somewhere, but i don't know why i don't like doing that
13:14 < ybit> kanzure: i'm going to be afk for about 20 mins, going to pick up edward from his apartment, we are going to play with sharpie microfludic designs and we are constructing this as well: http://www.instructables.com/id/20-CNC-Machine/
13:14 < ybit> i'll need to think about this today, i might be a decent designer as it turns out :\
13:14 < ybit> but i bet we can find someone better than myself
13:15 < ybit> if you are willing to spend money, there are lots of great services out there for this kind of stuff
13:15 < ybit> the handout we give during the art events: http://ybit.ath.cx/images/tl-handout-page1.png
13:15 < ybit> http://ybit.ath.cx/images/tl-handout-page2.png
13:15 < lepton_> Seems like Drupal could be a good infrastructure for the website, and there's so so so much already done with it graphically
13:15 < ybit> okay, bbl
13:16 < kanzure> lepton_: i was writing the website in python with cherrypy for a while actually
13:16 < kanzure> the kickstarter/ikiwiki/github/gitorious combothing
13:16 < lepton_> How'd that go?
13:16 < kanzure> i coded myself into a hole and realized cherrypy might not be ideal :)
13:16 < kanzure> i previously did django work, and i'm back to using django more regularly
13:17 < kanzure> i'm not sure drupal would be a good idea
13:17 < kanzure> well
13:18 < kanzure> the original reason why i was doing something inhouse was because the skdb package format for hardware was this weird mix between yaml and python
13:18 < kanzure> so if the website is in python too, you could just literally "import" the python module that represents the hardware package
13:18 < kanzure> and then use that to generate particular pages, screenshots, whatever
13:18 < kanzure> 3D models, etc.
13:18 < kanzure> but having python files in each package is probably a terrible architectural idea
13:19 < kanzure> the reason why we did that at first was so that we could write python functions to compute things like the strength of a screw
13:19 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/packages/screw/
13:19 < kanzure> see metadata.yaml and screw.py
13:20 < kanzure> i suppose a php module for drupal could be added to read the metadata.yaml stuff
13:21 < lepton_> You can always run python seperately on the server
13:21 < lepton_> or make a drupal skdb module that interfaces with python
13:21 < lepton_> but I'm not a web developer at all
13:21 < lepton_> so I don't really know what I'm talking about :)
13:21 < kanzure> i am. i started off as a web developer.
13:23 < lepton_> I started off as a mechanical engineer
13:23 < kanzure> how old were you
13:23 < lepton_> were?
13:23 < kanzure> uh
13:23 < lepton_> when do you mean?
13:23 < kanzure> i was doing web dev stuff when i was like 11 and 12
13:23 < kanzure> that's what i mean by started off :P
13:23 < lepton_> Ah, I think I made a star trek themed web page when I was 10 or so
13:24 < lepton_> I got really into 3d modeling around then
13:24 < lepton_> did some visual basic and such to make RPGs
13:24 < kanzure> yeah, i did lots of MMORPGs.. one was in visual basic :(
13:24 < fenn> kanzure: steve waves back
13:24 < kanzure> another was in C++ though
13:24 < kanzure> fenn: the wavelag is quite high :)
13:24 < lepton_> got into cars when I was in highschool, that lead to mechanical engineering in college. Then I realized that cars aren't really all that interesting and got into power electronics and controls
13:24 < kanzure> heh
13:25 < lepton_> and then I got a job at a start up, it folded, so I got a CNC and started my own
13:25 -!- victor_ [~victor@bzq-84-111-31-19.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
13:25 < lepton_> and here I am
13:25 < lepton_> blabbering on IRC when I should be wiring up a 3 phase contactor
13:26 < kanzure> hi victor_ 
13:26 < fenn> the message got stuck in a fenn-buffer
13:26 < kanzure> those fenn buffers are always terrible
13:26 -!- victor_ is now known as Yocttar
13:26 < fenn> i agree
13:26 < Yocttar> hey =)
13:35 < ybit> kanzure: cherrpy isn't ideal? oh noes! why is that?
13:36 < kanzure> ybit: http://designfiles.org/skdb/web/web.py i think it just grew out of control
13:36 < kanzure> django is more easy to maintain
13:36 < kanzure> cherrypy is great for very quick prototypes
13:39 < ybit> [09:17:29] <kanzure> fenn: the wavelag is quite high :)
13:39 < ybit> ^ made me laugh
13:39 < fenn> hm backlogs
13:39 < ybit> fenn: yar, we were talking about the co-op and open science startups
13:43 < fenn> i think people have the wrong idea thinking about it as "startups"
13:44 < ybit> fenn: it ==?
13:44 < fenn> "startup" typically implies you have some VC funding. there simply isn't enough of a market for a vc to get interested
13:44 < ybit> oh
13:44 < fenn> it == open hardware science kits
13:45 < kanzure> fenn: they probably want to call it a startup because they are thinking in terms of "their slice of the pie"
13:45 < kanzure> backyard brains is apparently a 'startup' (or so tim says)
13:45 < kanzure> and same with livly.org (which did get some VC)
13:47 < ybit> if you're making money on a routine basis and it's paying for people to work together and continue this cycle, it's a business... i've always considered a startup to be a business starting..
13:47 < ybit> fenn: apparently bobe is a fan of the quantified self group there
13:48 < kanzure> ybit: a startup is usually something involving VC funding
13:49 < ybit> wikipedia defines it as "a recently formed company" and wikipedia is never wrong ;)
13:50 < Yocttar> pacific bio is a start up
13:50 < Yocttar> ..
13:54 < fenn> kanzure: but there's not really much of a pie is my point
13:55 < fenn> 0/5 is still 0
13:55 < fenn> and 0 won't grow to >0 unless there's something new happening, like (real) open source hardware
13:56 < lepton_> I'm with ybit in my take on the term "startup" as simply a buisness that is beginning
13:57 < lepton_> VC investment isn't necessary for a startup to exist
13:57 < lepton_> There are plenty of startups around here with Federal Grants, Angel Investors (not VC), or self funded stuff like us
13:59 < kanzure> fenn: apparently there's enough of a pie for 400+ makerbot orders, and $7k+ in donations to OpenPCR, $10k+ to makerbeam, ..
13:59 < kanzure> and these are just donations
14:00 < kanzure> well, not the makerbot stuff
14:02 < bkero> Damn
14:02 < fenn> author of mayavi speaking now
14:03 < fenn> not about mayavi, about python in science and engineering in india..
14:04 < kanzure> interesting people speaking there, fenn
14:04 < kanzure> i wonder how many of these people will be at scipy2010
14:06 < lepton_> I wish I could come :/
14:06 < lepton_> We need an open source jet
14:06 < lepton_> pack
14:08  * fenn mumbles something about a telepresence rig
14:13 < fenn> http://fossee.in "free open source science + engineering in india"
14:14 < fenn> education*
14:16 < kanzure> prosthetic paws http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100625/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_bionic_cat
14:17 < fenn> i see possibility for a demotivational poster
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14:23 < fenn> everybody here pronounces "LaTeX" as "latek"
14:24 < fenn> this could be useful, a quick intro to how to do things the hacker way http://fossee.in/review
14:32 < cluckj> mmm that is some good yogurt
14:55 < fenn> $ apt-get install sagemath
14:55 < fenn> Need to get 313MB of archives.
14:55 < fenn> 129 newly installed,  878MB of additional disk space will be used.
14:59 < fenn> ah well at least there's fat pipes here
15:01 < bkero> 313MB = fat pipez?
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15:11 < jrayhawk> That is how LaTeX is pronounced, yes
15:16 < fenn> well if you dont want to download it you can just use http://sagenb.org
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15:20 < fenn> heh, sage calculates (10^6)! in 0.7 seconds
15:26 < fenn> sage can give you a list of assembly instructions from a math expression :0
15:28 < bkero> jrayhawk: 'laytech' is how LaTeX is pronounced.
15:29 < fenn> it looks like an X, not a chi
15:32 < fenn> all right, this is just ridiculous http://sagemath.org/doc/reference/
15:33 < fenn> >4000 pages
15:33 < pmetzger> knuth says, at the start of the TeXbook "if you pronounce it correctly, your terminal will become slightly moist"
15:37 < bkero> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95849
15:42 < jrayhawk> English doesn't have an equivalent to the sound that's supposed to be made, but "k" is definitely closer than "ch"
15:43 < jrayhawk> "The voiceless velar fricative /x/ is dialectal, occurring largely in Scottish English. In other dialects, words with these sounds are pronounced with /k/."
15:44 < jrayhawk> 'loch' being the classical example.
15:44 -!- Alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279558942.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
15:46 < jrayhawk> The thought of hocking something up while telling someone about typesetting sounds fun, though, so I think I'll try for the Scottish version from now on.
15:49 < jrayhawk> The "La" portion is a matter of taste since there's nothing canonical to work from.
16:00 < fenn> wow this is so cool http://sagenb.org/home/fenn/0/
16:01 < fenn> sorry, apparently i have to publish it first http://sagenb.org/home/pub/2182/
16:04 < fenn> blah. well if it doesn't work, i just copypasted from here http://wiki.sagemath.org/interact/dynsys
16:04 < fenn> dunno why they don't have real live demos of @interact
16:04 < kanzure> is this an online mathematica-like notebook? i am not bothering to click (yet)
16:05 < AJollyLife> woo, alcor signup complete, I have my shiny new necklace/wristband :)
16:05 < kanzure> :)
16:05 < kanzure> now don't die
16:05 < AJollyLife> dont die is the primary goal, cryonics is just the backup plan
16:07 < AJollyLife> i'm going to have to shorten this wristband though, its too big for my wrist
16:15 < fenn> kanzure: yeah, with sliders and pulldowns that automatically get generated and plots that get updated
16:15 < fenn> and java3d visualizations of surfaces
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16:40 < kanzure> fenn: sympy has something like that brewing, btw
16:40 < kanzure> it's a javascript/ajax/django+sympy demo at the moment
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17:07 < fenn> django? :\
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17:23 < ybit> hrm
17:24 < ybit> fail
17:24 < ybit> the water did nothing when we placed it in between the slides
17:24 < ybit> not sure why either
17:25 < ybit> pirahna might help
17:34 < pmetzger> pirahna bath!?
17:37 < pmetzger> (Ancient adage: Do Not Fuck With Pirhana Bath, unless you have serious safety equipment.)
17:43 < pmetzger> (see, for example, the 4th message down in this archive: http://yarchive.net/chem/piranha_solution.html )
17:54 < kanzure> ybit: how about RainX instead
17:54 < ybit> that works 
17:54 < kanzure> does it?
17:54 < ybit> thanks for the suggestion
17:55 < ybit> dunno, think i have some @ the house though
17:55 < kanzure> cool.
17:56 < pmetzger> I know some folks who sometimes rinse the surface of their glassware with HF when they have trouble with it. That's almost as nutty, perhaps nuttier, than H2SO4+H2O2...
17:56 < pmetzger> I'm glad I'm not regularly in a wet lab these days, though I suppose I may have to be in one again someday.
17:57 < kanzure> ybit: also, there's not really going to be any spontaneous liquid propulsion
18:00 < ybit> pcr via paper based microfluidics?
18:00 < ybit> ideas?
18:02 < ybit> guess it's time to RTFM and figure it out
18:02 < pmetzger> what are you trying to do? (just curious, I likely have no ideas.)
18:04 < fenn> way up here on the internet high ground...  so i took advantage of the 3MB/s upload http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNYdmKLVyyY
18:05 < ybit> i don't know, 90C might be too hot for the transparent film...
18:07 < ybit> pmetzger: i'm just contemplating what to do when the su-8 makes it here
18:08 < pmetzger> su-8?
18:08  * pmetzger possesses no context at all...
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18:10 < kanzure> why'd you buy su-8 if you don't know what to do with it?
18:10 < kanzure> it's not exactly a toy :P
18:11 < kanzure> oh well
18:11 < kanzure> i'm off to visit the mores
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18:12 < ybit> well, i'm reconstructing some of the stuff from whitesides papers, but i'm curious how difficult it might be to do pcr or if it's even possible
18:15 < pmetzger> su-8 photoresist?
18:27 < ybit> pmetzger: yes
18:27 < ybit> interesting idea, http://designfiles.org/papers/unsorted/Molecular%20Motors%20Meet%20Microfluidic%20Systems.pdf
18:33 < pmetzger> http://nobodyscores.loosenutstudio.com/index.php?id=556
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21:58 < ybit> heh, i like metzer's link :)
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22:18 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
22:54 < kanzure> hm i seem to have acquired the entire extropian mailing list archives
22:54 < JayDugger> Really?
22:54 < JayDugger> How far back?
22:55 < JayDugger> Specifically, what do you have from the early 1990s?
22:55 < kanzure> 1993
22:56 < JayDugger> Neat.
22:56 < JayDugger> May I have a copy, if convenient for you?
22:57 < kanzure> hm also 1991
22:57 < kanzure> i don't know if i was supposed to get this in the first place
22:57 < JayDugger> Ah...
22:57 < JayDugger> While I'd like to have copies of emails from that era, if inconvenient. No worries. :)
22:58 < kanzure> heh it was hosted on gnu.ai.mit.edu
23:03 < JayDugger> Oh, the email list?
23:05 < kanzure> cool i've never had files on my system from 1991
23:06 < JayDugger> Heh. Don't you have a copy of any works of literature?
23:06 < JayDugger> Shakespeare's plays don't have mtimes, but their creation times stretch pretty far back. :)
23:07 < JayDugger> 1991 < Shakespeare < The Illiad < Gilgamesh
23:10 < kanzure> isn't that pre-unix time?
23:10 < JayDugger> History began before Unix.
23:11 < kanzure> yes but not according to ext3 timestamps
23:11 < JayDugger> Yes, yes: $0.02 for the off-topic jar and the same again for heresy.
23:11 < kanzure> *valid ext3 timestamps
23:12 < JayDugger> brb
23:14 < kanzure> heh i love this stuff
23:15 < kanzure> "As an immortalist I want to live forever. Not just for a thousand or a googolplex of years but forever. It is the almost universal opinion of scientists and philosophers that the universe we currently live in will become uninhabitable with the passage of time, and this is accepted at face value by many people."
23:15 < kanzure> "Such people can dismiss the idea of personal immortality because they see it as incompatible with a universe in which life is an ephemeral phase. This article will expose the total falsity of this mindset, by the simple expedient of applying a modicum of logic to this situation."
23:17 < AJollyLife> kanzure: i just want to make death optional
23:17 < QuantumG> kanzure: does it go on?
23:17 < kanzure> heh they cite illya prigogine
23:17 < kanzure> QuantumG: yeah, for a few more pages
23:17 < QuantumG> does it have a point?
23:17 < kanzure> old school .txt zines
23:17 < kanzure> QuantumG: i don't think so O_o
23:17 < QuantumG> hehe
23:18 < kanzure> heh the next article is one on gradient descent algorithms
23:18 < kanzure> "The question is how to find the steepest slope in our multi-dimensional space. Looking everywhere in the space would take an impossibly long time. Fortunately, it has been mathematically proven that a more general version of the perceptron-learning rule (which is also known as the delta rule) corresponds to gradient descent."
23:18 < kanzure> "(For a formal proof, see Chapter 8 of Rumelhart and McClelland's Parallell Distributed Processing, MIT Press, 1988). As described in my last article, the delta rule says the following: See what the output is for the network with a particular set of inputs and weights. Take the difference ("delta") between this output and the desired output, and multiply each weight by that difference."
23:20 < kanzure> `ECOCALYPSE - (from ecological and apocalypse) n. A projected ecological catastrophe which would destroy all life on Earth.  [Mark Plus; August 1991]`
23:21 < kanzure> "CEREBROSTHESIS - (from cerebral and prosthesis) n. An electronic device interfaced with the brain to overcome a neurological deficiency, such as normal human intelligence. (Cf. neuroprosthesis - see Extropy #7). [Mark Plus; August 1991]"
23:22 < QuantumG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_PrQoLhf6Q
23:22 < kanzure> hm 'smart drugs' have been in the popular press/news/media since 91?
23:23 < kanzure> damn, time to deliver
23:25 < kanzure> "Chaum's approach to the protection of privacy can be thought of as having three layers."
23:25 < kanzure> "The first layer is public-key cryptography, which protects the privacy of individual messages."
23:25 < kanzure> "The second layer is anonymous messaging, which allows people to communicate via electronic mail ("email") without revealing their true identities."
23:25 < kanzure> ELECTRONIC MAIL!
23:26 < QuantumG> OMG!
23:27 < kanzure> hrm what were the "co-enzyme Q10 experiments"?
23:29 < kanzure> huh: "Apart from transforming ourselves in order to keep up, we would-be immortals will find self-transformation necessary for a fulfilling, meaningful life." odd way to argue for it
23:30 < QuantumG> translation: self-transformation is awesome baby.
23:31 < kanzure> " In the 21st Century, the depth and significance of self-transformation and augmentation will far exceed our current experience.  Within a decade biologists will have decoded the human genetic program, and we will then accelerate our ability to understand and correct genetically-related physical (and psychological and intellectual) deficits, and to enhance normal abilities to transhuman levels."
23:31 < kanzure> "Today's gene therapy is a magnificent achievement, but will seem minor once nanomedicine is able to alter any of the DNA of a developed, adult human.  Each of us can then choose to alter mildly or massively our physical constitution.  We can boost our immune systems, alter our facial features, become taller or shorter, stronger or more delicate, and sharpen our senses."
23:31 < kanzure> you know, a lot of this is pretty general
23:32 < kanzure> but at least it's written down somewhere :/
23:32 < kanzure> wut? "If the changes are positive changes, these new peaks in the evolutionary landscape will be transhuman."
23:33 < QuantumG> is "transhuman" just a less politically offense way of saying "superhuman"?
23:36 < kanzure> in some cases yes
23:36 < kanzure> an example of where it is not 'superhuman' is where clearly something seems nonhuman i guess
23:36 < kanzure> but this is just wordplay
23:37 < QuantumG> but the better-than-human aspect seems to be fixed
23:37 < kanzure> "The appearance, in 1993, of the first generation of personal digital assistants (PDAs) heralds an era of increasingly portable personal computing power and communications flexibility.  Soon you will be able to contact most people, and access remote databases, no matter where you happen to be." GASP
23:38 < kanzure> "Software agents and 'knowbots' will help us to gather the information that interests us, relieving us of tedious work hunting down and managing information." GASP
23:38 < QuantumG> for example, if I suggested limiting the intelligence would make people happier and suggested some technology to do that (haha youtube) you wouldn't call that transhuman.
23:38 < kanzure> i'd call it people programming :P
23:40 < kanzure> "Increasingly, those of us desiring bodies beyond those evolved by natural processes, will engage in a process of what I call transbiomorphosis - the engineering of improved bodies by intervening in biological processes, and by incrementally replacing our biological forms with synthetic life-sustaining bodies."
23:40 < kanzure> it's funny how a lot of this feels like preachy stuff
23:40 < kanzure> but then turns out to be a prediction of something that the author had no involvement in making a reality :/
23:41 < kanzure> " The 1990s have seen the beginning of gene therapy; we can expect genetic engineering to progress from restoring defective systems (today's medical paradigm) to pushing back natural limits (tomorrow's medical paradigm)"
23:44 < kanzure> some of these past set of quotes were from an article called "technological self-transformation: expanding personal extropy" from extropy #10
23:45 < kanzure> i wonder why the term 'morphological freedom' never caught on
23:46 < JayDugger> Too many syllables, I suspect.
23:46 < JayDugger> However--I definitely have a tin ear for euphonious phrasing.
23:49 < kanzure> hm there was an extropians-essay mailing list
23:51 < kanzure> when did piracetam and the other *acetams show up on the scene?
23:51 < kanzure> lucidril, hydergine too while you're at it
23:53 < AJollyLife> hm, theyve been around for at least 5 years, but thats just cause I started using them then
23:58 < kanzure> fenn: what is bricolabs and the bricophone?
23:59 < kanzure> "The Extropian mailing list is brought to you by the Extropy Institute, through hardware, generously provided, by the Free Software Foundation - neither is responsible for its content."