--- Log opened Tue Jul 06 00:00:17 2010
00:04 < fenn> heh not at all, she's actually a babe
00:08 < splicer> (milf encounter)
00:12 < fenn> She was born on February 28th, 1980 in Elblag, Poland.
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00:12 < fenn> surprising how quickly i found that
00:15 < splicer> (I retract earlier suggestions)
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00:15 < AJollyLife> fenn: where do i know that woman from?
00:18 < fenn> hplus
00:19 < fenn> im sort of disappointed we spent the whole time talking about the downsides to releasing personal data, which is not really what the event blurb said
00:20 < fenn> "This house believes that in the future the benefits of openness will outweigh those of privacy." 
00:24 < AJollyLife> i agree with TH
00:24 < AJollyLife> i'd totally run that government case :)
00:24 < fenn> TH?
00:24 < AJollyLife> th = this house
00:24 < fenn> er, please expand your colloquialism then
00:24 < AJollyLife> in debate, its the group/body that you are arguing as
00:25 < AJollyLife> sorry, since you used that quotation i assumed you were a debater
00:25 < fenn> i thought they meant "this house" as in "rainbow mansion"
00:26 < AJollyLife> so in debate, you will get a potential resolution, such as "This house believes that in the future the benefits of openness will outweigh those of privacy.".  as the government, or pro side, you get to define terms....including who "this house" actually is
00:26 < fenn> ok
00:27 < AJollyLife> anyways, i really need sleep
00:27 < AJollyLife> i was going to go to bed early :(
00:27 < AJollyLife> its now 3:30 am
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02:39 < fenn> braaaaains
02:46 < fenn> i furtively photographed the rainbow mansion book collection: http://fennetic.net/rainbow_books/
02:48  * fenn tries laying on a mattress some more
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03:47 < Bruns> hai
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04:43 < fenn> "Get notified when the scales of love tip in your favor at your favorite local hangouts! 6 girls, 3 guys, In your favor!"
04:43 < fenn> i'm cracking up over here
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07:20 < kanzure> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, jelle feringa <jelleferinga@gmail.com> wrote:
07:20 < kanzure> >        Hi Bryan,
07:20 < kanzure> >
07:20 < kanzure> > I think your presentation of PythonOCC was a total waste of the audience time.
07:20 < kanzure> > You probably did not spend more than 10 minutes on it ( shame on you if you did ).
07:20 < kanzure> >
07:20 < kanzure> > YOU FAILED TO SHOW A SINGLE PYTHONOCC IMAGE.
07:20 < kanzure> > There is not a single image from our project.
07:20 < kanzure> > Not one.
07:20 < kanzure> >
07:20 < kanzure> > Consider your PythonOCC license revoked.
07:20 < kanzure> >
07:20 < kanzure> > -jelle
07:20 < kanzure> um
07:20 < kanzure> what a load of bullshit
07:23 < Utopiah> revoking a GPL license on a personal basis? how is that possible
07:23 < uniqanomaly> LOL, nice one
07:25 < kanzure> not only that, but jelle is totally full of shit
07:25 < kanzure> there clearly *are* pythonocc-rendered images in the presentation
07:25 < kanzure> and the audience loved the presentation :(
07:31 < ENKI-][> i don't think it's counter to the license to revoke a gpl on an individual
07:31 < ENKI-][> but a lawyer could tell you better
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07:46 < bdesk> kanzure: wow that is harsh
07:48 < kanzure> skdb has a big dependency on pythonocc
07:48 < kanzure> JayDugger: let's talk in here
07:48 < JayDugger> You can either work hard to remove
07:49 < bdesk> he is not really revoking your license, he is just super pissed.  you can just show him the .pdf of your presentation so he sees that it has teh pictures.
07:49 < kanzure> presumably he has already seen it?
07:49 < kanzure> link: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/presentations/scipy2010/pythonOCC.pdf
07:49 < JayDugger> that dependency, or you can work hard to regain "jelle feringa" good graces.
07:50 < kanzure> maybe he's upset that i didn't include an image of something rendered by pythonocc after the pythonocc slide
07:50 < kanzure> but that's still pretty balsy of him
07:50 < Utopiah> yep
07:50 < kanzure> since i showed a two minute youtube video
07:51 < JayDugger> Well, I've seen flashier presentations, but that's a lame reason to get upset.
07:51 < kanzure> it's all in the delivery.
07:51 < JayDugger> Esp. if the material matched the audience's needs and they appreciated it.
07:53 < JayDugger> Assuming you want to regain Jelle Feringa's good graces, then reconciling with him or her matters.
07:54 < bdesk> yes but don't worry about the license 'revocation'
07:54 < kanzure> it's gpl
07:54 < JayDugger> Yeah, I see that on the website.
07:55 < JayDugger> That makes me wonder...is English a second language for Feringa? Perhaps translation error makes the text harsher than intended.
07:55 < JayDugger> (Yes, yes--making excuses for other people, giving them the benefit of the doubt, AKA giving someone a chance to save face.)
07:57 < JayDugger> Open Knowledge Packages and CKAN, an Archive Network Bryan Bishop--Was that another talk you gave?
07:58 < kanzure> it was supposed to be.. but it was my fault that it didn't happen
07:59 < JayDugger> So this one substituted?
08:00 < kanzure> no
08:00 < kanzure> it turns out i had two talks accepted
08:03 < JayDugger> Re: Jelle Feringa--display sincere contrition (genuine if possible), ask for help in understanding what's meant by the disapproval (act stupid here), and with luck you'll get a lecture which you can then judge on its own merits. Adopt what seems valid or useful, note what you expect matters to J.F. for use in future dealings, and continue on as you think best.
08:04 < JayDugger> Don't let your ego hinder your efforts to get J.F. to act as you want.
08:05 < bdesk> I am failing at installing https://projets.pasteur.fr/wiki/2/Administrator_Guide
08:06 < bdesk> this is supposed to be a way to run free bioinformatics programs through a web 'portal' (cgi).
08:06 < JayDugger> Giving that advice takes far less effort than taking it. It boils down to expedient hypocrisy and a certain amount of deceit in service of your long-term goals.
08:06 < JayDugger> No, I am not in marketing. :)
08:06 < bdesk> o.O
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08:10 < JayDugger> Once that's done, you can continue working with pythonocc. 
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08:14 < bdesk> what library of software does the diy bio community use to analyze their data?  is their any effort on this front, or do you just pick and choose from what you find with google searches?
08:15 < bdesk> is there*
08:16 < bdesk> when i used to read books i never confused its/it's lose/loose their/their/they're your/you're but then i started reading the internet...
08:16 < kanzure> trying to get diybio people to use software is like trying to get any other biologist to use software
08:16 < kanzure> but in general, you'd probably know better tools
08:16 < kanzure> just by hanging out in #bioinformatics
08:17 < bdesk> well other biologists can use proprietary software.
08:17 < bdesk> presumably diy bio people do not have university licenses.
08:19 < bdesk> for example http://www.geneious.com/ and http://www.clcbio.com/index.php?id=1240
08:19 < kanzure> well there are a subset of people into diybio and on the diybio list who are also academics and have access to those software packages
08:20 < kanzure> but yeah, a lot of it is just google-and-go
08:20 < kanzure> for the web-based bioinformatics cgi gateway stuff
08:25 < fenn> jelle's email is teh lulz. i did not see the presentation so i can't comment
08:28 < bdesk> i doubt the presentation had more pictures than the pdf
08:34 < kanzure> it did not
08:34 < kanzure> but it's not like i was talking from the slides..
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08:35 < kanzure> fenn: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/presentations/scipy2010/pythonOCC.pdf
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09:32 < fenn> well, to be fair it _was_ a 10 minute presentation, so "you did not spend more than 10 minutes on it" is correct. and there was _one_ image of pythonOCC
09:34  * fenn mumbles something about auditioning for a hacker tv show
09:41 < genehacker> you don't audition for a hacker tv show, you start your own pirate tv station and give the FCC trouble
09:41 < genehacker> wow that's pretty harsh
09:44 < kanzure> fenn: will you apply?
09:45 < kanzure> "-- FULL NAME, HEIGHT, ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER, EMAIL  "
09:45 < kanzure> height?
09:46 < kanzure> weird place to put it in the priority list.
09:48 < kanzure> "As a consequence, we do not ever want to have something to do with you again, whether or not it's related to pythonocc. I removed the 'Scipy 2010' post from the pythonocc.org website and also removed your email adress from the pythonocc-users ml."
09:48 < kanzure> what the fuck
09:48 < kanzure> woah
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09:52 < fenn> ouch
09:53 < kanzure> fenn: i am so confused
09:54 < AJollyLife> kanzure: wow, you really pissed that dude off
09:54 < fenn> fork!
09:54 < fenn> actually, get rid of all that swig crap, which leaves basically nothing
09:55 < kanzure> i just don't even understand how they think their behavior is acceptable
09:55 < bdesk> lets make our own pythonocc, with blackjack, and hookers!
10:03 < kanzure> fenn: i don't even know how to reply
10:10 < bdesk> kanzure: i know what is going on. they thought your presentation made pythonocc look bad compared to its competitors.  you showed pythonocc with legos, and its competitors with mech warriors.
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10:10 < kanzure> oh please
10:11 < kanzure> the mech warrior slide was like 5 seconds
10:12 < bdesk> actually i didn't even see the mech warrior slide, i was talking metaphorically about the other flashy pictures.
10:13 < bdesk> your talk was like 'CAD is awesome'!  and they wanted the talk to be 'pythonocc is awesome compared to other CAD programs!'
10:14 < kanzure> in my talk i spent a lot of time going over the different CAD representations or 'schemes'
10:14 < bdesk> this is the only explanation i can think of why they woudl be so pissed
10:14 < kanzure> i was talking about csg, brep, solid geometry modeling, and the different ways of utilizing these features via the python wrappers
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10:15 < kanzure> lepton: i'm sending you some "wtf" emails
10:17 < lepton> haha, sounds good
10:17 < kanzure> okay, sent.
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10:19 < lepton> Am I correctly interpreting those as being serious?
10:19 < kanzure> apparently!
10:19 < kanzure> i thought jelle's email at first was just humor
10:19 < kanzure> so i pasted it in here
10:20 < kanzure> but then i got the one from thomas
10:20 < lepton> Wow, that's crazy
10:20 < lepton> I've interacted with them both via email, I'm pretty surprised at that
10:20 < lepton> wtf indeed!!
10:21 < kanzure> > Consider your PythonOCC license revoked.
10:21 < Utopiah> it's basly to share private emails on a public channel too btw kanzure ...
10:21 < Utopiah> \ballsy
10:21 < lepton> > Consider your PythonOCC license revoked.
10:21 < lepton> I talked with my lawyers, and you can't do that- you released it under
10:21 < lepton> the GPL, Jelle.
10:21 < lepton> Nice
10:21 < kanzure> Utopiah: yes, that's true
10:21 < kanzure> i think i *need* the community's input on this one, though
10:22 < kanzure> this is just too weird for me to do it alone
10:22 < Utopiah> yep, I understand just saying that.. have to be cautious on the way to do si
10:22 < Utopiah> s/si/so/ ( /me need extra coffe)
10:22 < kanzure> coffee :P
10:22  * Utopiah -> woooshhh 
10:23 < kanzure> jelle and thomas once sent me this email a while back
10:23 < kanzure> complaining that i had Level2API.py on my server
10:23 < kanzure> and that it shouldn't be there
10:23 < kanzure> and they were /dead serious/
10:24 < lepton> Very strange
10:24 < kanzure> am i just socially inept or something?
10:24 < lepton> Sorry to hear about all of that, it seems like a rather bizarre over reaction
10:25 < lepton> I mean, geeze, it's an open, volunteer based project!
10:25 < kanzure> lepton: also, i just thought you should know since you're into pythonocc :P
10:25 < lepton> Yeah, I appreciate that (though I've been in EMC2 land for the past month and all my multiobjective optimization work has been neglected)
10:26 < Utopiah> kanzure: if you want send me a "package" of conversations + license  in historical order, Im heading tomorrow to LSM ( http://2010.rmll.info/spip.php?lang=en ) and I get try to get my hands on some GPL experts there
10:26 < kanzure> emc2 land is probably more productive
10:26 < Utopiah> s/get try/can try/
10:26 < kanzure> hmm?
10:26 < kanzure> no, no, i have lawyers
10:26 < kanzure> but i'm not interested in using them
10:26 < kanzure> this is all balogna anyway
10:27 < lepton> I think you should rewrite OCC from scratch, now
10:27 < kanzure> heh
10:27 < lepton> Since you mentioned that before :p
10:27 < kanzure> btw, step.py is still coming along (sort of)
10:28 < lepton> Nice
10:28 < kanzure> i'm not really sure what's wrong with it at the moment
10:28 < kanzure> but when i generate a .step file, it's not opening up correctly in HeeksCAD
10:28 < kanzure> and it's not entirely clear how to go about debugging other than checking if the outputs are the same (of saving a "sphere" in HeeksCAD versus saving a sphere via step.py)
10:29 < lepton> What about using other programs to test the files?
10:29 < lepton> To make sure that the issue isn't HeeksCAD specific
10:30 < kanzure> well, the only thing i have running at the moment is OCC stuff to load up step files
10:30 < kanzure> even 'gmsh' is using OCC under the hood to load STEP files
10:30 < kanzure> so unless i get vmware running again with solidworks, it's unlikely to happen
10:30 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure the problem is on my end though ;-)
10:30 < kanzure> my little tiny framework isn't robust enough yet for the fault to be somewhere else
10:31 < kanzure> 'tiny' might be the wrong word
10:32 < lepton> If you send me some files I can test in Solidworks
10:32 < lepton> with a latency of a day or two
10:32 < kanzure> heh okie dokie
10:34 < lepton> I'll be in Solidworks a lot tomorrow, fyi
10:34 < lepton> but I'm mostly living in Linux these days
10:36 < kanzure> bbl. i need to spend some time wondering why i bother with people
10:37 < lepton> :/ don't feel bad, kanzure 
10:37 < lepton> People are crazy sometimes, it's an inevitability of being out there in the world
10:38 < lepton> But I think there's more good than bad in the long run
10:39 < lepton> Anyway, I should focus on wiring up digital IOs to finish our EMC conversion
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10:51 < kanzure> 'You have been unsubscribed from the Pythonocc-users mailing list
10:51 < kanzure> 				'
10:51 < kanzure> lifeboat.com picked up the itft .. uh.. contest? yeah, contest: http://lifeboat.com/blog/2010/07/whats-your-idea-to-bodyshock-the-future
10:51 < fenn> i thought your 'wtf' response was very well written, and they are being asses 
10:54 < kanzure> s/itft/iftf/
10:54 < fenn> hum maybe i'll submit my networkable immune system idea.. will have to learn blender again (sigh)
10:55 < fenn> do we know any graphics artsy people?
10:55 < fenn> particularly animation
10:55 < kanzure> yes, all of the makerbot people
10:55 < kanzure> well, not all of them :)
10:56 < kanzure> but a lot of them are from the world of blender
10:56 < fenn> um, um, no
10:56 < kanzure> hm?
10:56 < fenn> most of that crap is kindergarten level sketchup
10:56 < fenn> the rest was written by coders in openscad
10:56 < kanzure> agreed.. but apparently they do better stuff in blender (?)
10:57 < kanzure> okay, well, even if they did, i probably don't want to recommend you use them
10:57 < kanzure> even if they did do better stuff in blender, i mean.
10:57 < fenn> maybe i can get forrest bishop interested
10:59 < fenn> someone from molecularmovies.org would be awesome
10:59 < kanzure> fenn: while you're at it, if you can find me a web designer / graphics person who actually has time (and who will accept money from me), that would be hawt
10:59 < kanzure> are they the ones who did 'inner life of the cell'?
10:59 < kanzure> because alex lightman knows the inner-life-of-the-cell peeps
10:59 < fenn> web designers are a dime a dozen at the dojo..
10:59 < kanzure> they showed off the next installment of inner-life-of-the-cell at hplus summit 2010
11:00 < fenn> yeah the harvard people did some ok stuff
11:01 < fenn> ugh there's no way i'm going to learn all this http://www.molecularmovies.com/learning/index.html
11:01 < fenn> nevermind that it's all for expensive software i don't have
11:02 < kanzure> After Effects, Cinema4D, Maya, looks like lots of proprietary software to me
11:02 < fenn> i think blender can do all of that, if you can figure out the name mapping
11:02 < bdesk> wow that site looks slick.
11:02 < kanzure> fyi if you're serious about using blender for this, blender has a ridiculously huge forum
11:03 < fenn> i know, i just have too many projects, need a clone, etc
11:03 < bdesk> i know someone who does blender a bit and might have free time
11:03 < kanzure> someone talked with me after my scipy2010 talk about how he and some friends were writing this blender plugin to make it a CAD tool
11:03 < kanzure> i found the nearest blunt object and bashed his face in
11:03 < kanzure> i've been on the run ever since
11:04 < bdesk> wait what is wrong with that
11:04 < kanzure> here we go again.. i should write a fucking FAQ (FFAQ)
11:04 < fenn> it's a dead and rotting horse
11:04 < bdesk> ?
11:04 < kanzure> er
11:04 < bdesk> i have not heard the rant
11:04 < kanzure> that's not the typical explanation
11:05 < bdesk> maybe write a blog of it
11:05 < fenn> blender was never meant to be a cad tool, multiple attempts at making it so have failed, every year some new recruits get the idea and try again
11:05 < bdesk> if that is the case there should really be a faq for it, because i would be tempted to use it as a CAD.
11:05 < kanzure> yes, everyone is tempted to use it for CAD
11:06 < kanzure> yeah.. i should write the faq
11:06 < fenn> there is even a blendercad mailing list
11:06 < kanzure> o rly
11:06 < kanzure> lovely
11:06 < bdesk> is there a free CAD that is not blender and that is not pythonocc?
11:06 < kanzure> bdesk: http://heekscad.org/
11:06 < lepton> freecad
11:06 < fenn> i still havent seen any actual results from freecad
11:06 < kanzure> lepton: show me someone who has successfully used freecad to do anything, ever
11:06 < lepton> heekscad seems to be going in a better Dev diretion, though
11:06 < kanzure> gah
11:06 < lepton> oh, I've tried
11:06 < lepton> with bad results
11:06 < lepton> I do not recommend
11:06 < lepton> but it exists
11:06 < kanzure> fenn and i get stuck on the same brain wave frequency from time to time
11:07 < kanzure> it's.. weird.
11:07 < kanzure> bdesk: another option is http://openscad.org/ but honestly it only exports to mesh file formats, so it's not really CAD
11:07 < lepton> I typically rely on binaural entrainment to sync up brainwaves ;)
11:07 < fenn> http://ericmika.com/itp/blender-cad
11:08 < lepton> The big problem I have with FOSS cad is nothing I've encountered has an easy to use parametric engine
11:08 < lepton> that's what got my into pythonocc in the first place
11:08 < fenn> yep
11:08 < kanzure> right
11:08 < kanzure> actually, writing a constraints engine has been on my todo list
11:09 < kanzure> there's a few python libraries out there that kinda sorta do it.. uh. maybe.
11:09 < kanzure> basically the steps are something like this:
11:09 < kanzure> (1) find a python/CAD library
11:09 < kanzure> (2) hook up sympy (or something like it) for constraints and measurements and relations
11:09 < kanzure> (3) get a constraints library to help resolve and propagate constraints throughout a model
11:09 < kanzure> in many cases people do #3 with techniques from graph theory
11:10 < kanzure> i spent a few years hanging out in a graph theory lab sitting in the middle of a mechanical engineering department..
11:10 < fenn> there was a constraints library somebody hooked up to heekscad, they were sticking to 2d until the bugs got worked out though, and supposedly it generalizes to 3d
11:10 < fenn> pysketcher(?)
11:10 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/wiki/GeometricConstraints
11:11 < kanzure> wait, doesn't OCC have constraints libraries?
11:11 < kanzure> or is that one of their for-pay libraries?
11:11 < lepton> Yes
11:11 < kanzure> yes to which :P
11:11 < lepton> I don't think it's for-pay
11:11 < fenn> the second i think
11:11 < kanzure> heekscad sketchsolve constraints demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibjuxCbUag
11:11 < lepton> I'm pretty sure OCC has a non-pay constraints library, and that's what the PythonOCC PAF is built off of (not that I can get the damn thing to compile on Ubuntu, ever)
11:12 < lepton> but I might be wrong on that (please correct me if that's the case)
11:12 < fenn> paf is using salome's parametric stuff, i dont think it's constraints based
11:13 < lepton> ohhh yeah, you're right, it is coming from salome
11:13 < lepton> that's why I couldn't ever get anywhere with it
11:13 < fenn> salome is heavily dependent on occ so it might as well be the same thing
11:13 < kanzure> yeah i've never figured out the practical difference
11:13 < kanzure> it's like salome was separated from occ.. for what reason?
11:14 < fenn> licensing probably
11:14 < kanzure> pythonocc parametric modeling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUCv7COgzU0
11:14 < kanzure> i actually showed this video during my talk
11:14 < fenn> lol
11:14 < kanzure> because i know it wouldn't have worked with a live demo :P
11:14 < fenn> a real professional would have made it work. it is a fault.
11:15 < kanzure> yes
11:15 < kanzure> wait, are you 
11:16 < fenn> salome is lgpl, that's probably why it's separate
11:16 < fenn> though i really dont get why they don't just release occ as dual licensed lgpl/whateverclusterfuckcustomlicense
11:17 < bdesk> http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/
11:27 < kanzure> elevenarms suggests i read http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/05/18/tim-ferriss-scam-practical-tactics-for-dealing-with-haters/
11:29 < bdesk> i was expecting to not like that but it looks pretty good.
11:31 < kanzure> cluckj: haters gotta hate.
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11:35 < bdesk> your only response to those emails should be http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/056/577/original/RONALDHATER.png
11:36 -!- splicer [~patrik@h126n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
11:41 < kanzure> bdesk: i was thinking http://livingelpaso.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/haters.jpg
11:50 < AJollyLife> tim ferris has some pretty cool blog articles up there
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11:58 < kanzure> ho ho ho
11:58 < kanzure> http://www.boingboing.net/2010/07/05/help-fund-a-hackersp.html
11:58 < kanzure> "'Term I coined: Fakerspace - Corporate start-up masquerading as a "hackerspace" for purposes of increasing contributors.'" - Jason Scott
11:58 < kanzure> heh heh
11:59 < AJollyLife> lol
11:59 < kanzure> that's kinda how i feel about it..
11:59 < kanzure> especially because of how livly.org turned out *cough*
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12:01 < fenn> please post that to diybio, omg
12:01 < AJollyLife> hm, i dont think ive ever actually talked to jason scott
12:02 < kanzure> fenn: joseph would hate me forever
12:02 < kanzure> i should have an anonymous puppet account on diybio
12:02 < AJollyLife> whats the difference between livly and biocurious?
12:03 < kanzure> john schloendorn doesn't understand diybio
12:03 < bdesk> livly is more corporate i think
12:03 < fenn> investment strategy
12:03 < AJollyLife> seems to have the same people
12:03 < kanzure> tax fraud
12:03 < kanzure> er, i mean, tax status
12:03 < AJollyLife> heh
12:03 < kanzure> AJollyLife: it *is* the same people
12:03 < fenn> actually, biocurious started out as a VC funded incubator dealie, now has mutated into a wannabe hackerspace. livly was always 501c(3) (dunno if they ever did the paperwork)
12:03 < kanzure> for a while eri's garage was the most popular garage door in the diybio community
12:03 < kanzure> well, it still is
12:04 < kanzure> there's no other distinctly recognizable garage door photo
12:04 < kanzure> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2478/4044058001_71291f7196.jpg
12:05 < fenn> "with distinction"
12:05 < kanzure> ?
12:07 < ENKI-][> if it fails to take off or run a profit, though, is there a significant difference? aside from suddenly disappearing, i mean
12:12 < kanzure> boyden teaching a class on neurotech startups http://syntheticneurobiology.org/classes/display/24
12:14 < fenn> 0/1 == 0/2 ? does it matter?
12:15 < fenn> (in response to enki)
12:16 < kanzure> does anyone remember one of the 'stackoverflow'-like sites for medical diagnoses?
12:17 < fenn> curetogether?
12:17 < fenn> curezone, maybe
12:18 < kanzure> curezone is definitely not it
12:18 < fenn> wrongdiagnosis
12:19 < bdesk> yeah that sounds like a horrible idea
12:19 < kanzure> bdesk: actually, some of these sites are pretty helpful
12:19 < kanzure> i mean, when a doctor tells you that you have X, and you go on a board and post your symptoms or something
12:19 < kanzure> you usually get a lot of interesting, educational advice
12:19 < kanzure> now, taking the advice is usually stupid- unless you vet it over with a doc
12:20 < AJollyLife> i know the site you are thinking of, but i dont remember its name atm
12:20 < kanzure> i don't think it's webmd
12:20 < kanzure> medgle
12:20 < kanzure> http://www.medgle.com/
12:21 < kanzure> medgle is interesting, but not what i wanted
12:35 < kanzure> edward miller is thinking of doing some FDA-testing on foods
12:35 < kanzure> so i recommended that, instead of making up his own tests, he just uses whatever the heck the FDA is using
12:35 < kanzure> http://www.fda.gov/Food/ScienceResearch/LaboratoryMethods/default.htm
12:35 < cluckj> kanzure yep that's my new favorite catchphrase
12:37 < kanzure> wow their procedure/testing manual is from 1984
12:38 < kanzure> Brickey, P.M., J.S. Gecan, and A. Rothschild, "Method for Determining Direction of Insect Boring through Food Packaging Materials," JAOAC 56: 640-642, 1973.
12:38 < kanzure> hah
12:38 < kanzure> direction of insect boring
12:38 < bdesk> the insect came from INSIDE THE PACKAGE!!!
12:39 < kanzure> (02:41:50 PM) Edward Miller: lol they are up with the times
12:39 < kanzure> (02:41:55 PM) Edward Miller: they are using MICROSCOPES
12:39 < kanzure> (02:42:19 PM) Edward Miller: the technology baffles the mind
12:39 < kanzure> WITH A ONE HUNDRED EX OBJECTIVE LENSE!!
12:40 < kanzure> well, i guess this /is/ the macroanalytical manual
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12:40 < kanzure> for chemicals: http://www.fda.gov/Food/ScienceResearch/LaboratoryMethods/DrugChemicalResiduesMethodology/default.htm
12:41 < kanzure> detection of acrylamide in foods (2002) http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/FoodContaminantsAdulteration/ChemicalContaminants/Acrylamide/ucm053537.htm
12:41 < kanzure> "The methanol elution step was removed because higher recoveries were achieved with a water wash of the Oasis column instead of the methanol wash. An additional solid phase extraction (SPE) step was added to the method using a sorbent bed of C8, strong anion and cation exchange media. This step improved signal to noise ratios in samples with high levels of coextracted materials when used in conjunction with the Oasis SPE step. Post-column add
12:42 < kanzure> i <3 bureaucratized chemistry
12:42 < kanzure> (to be fair, again, that quote isn't really much of a bureaucratic mess)
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13:05 < ENKI-][> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Boj8VYzDAy8&playnext_from=TL&videos=XskuFiMy8Mw
13:10 < kanzure> http://blog.hackerspaces.org/2010/05/17/open-research-network-for-hackerspaces/
13:10 < kanzure> enki's link was on texting/tweeting on youtube.
13:11  * kanzure dislikes links that aren't self-descriptive.. or without some text describing what's going on :P
13:11 < kanzure> i wonder why i haven't heard about http://opensciny.com/ much
13:13 < kanzure> hm http://curetogether.com/blog/about/team/ alexandra carmichael has been showing up in some weird places
13:13 < kanzure> institute for the future, curetogether, betterhumans, diybio, biocurious, kickstarter, and open source medicine
13:14 < fenn> seems all pretty related to me
13:14 < fenn> i heard about curetogether from alexandra at qs
13:17 < kanzure> uh wait
13:17 < kanzure> what's melanie swan doing on there
13:17 < kanzure> i dunno who gets around more.. melanie or todd?
13:18 < genehacker> didn't biocurious say they were doing SNP stuff?
13:18 < kanzure> they mentioned some plans
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14:02 < kanzure> wonder what i was thinking when i wrote this line: auction.owner = FacebookUser.objects.all()[0]
14:04 -!- AJollyLife [~Jolly@unaffiliated/ajollylife] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:06 < bdesk> you were probably thinking to scam some facebook users
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14:52 < kanzure> ok, this is just too absurd
14:52 < kanzure> http://uswaretech.com/blog/2009/02/understanding-datetime-tzinfo-timedelta-timezone-conversions-python/
14:53 < kanzure> in order to attach a timezone object to a datetime object, python wants you to define a class called 'GMT5' (for instance)
14:53 < kanzure> am i the only one who thinks this is absurd?
14:54 < kanzure> 'python's dateutil.parser.parse is a useful function for parsing tz-aware strings.' well that's nice i guess
14:55 < kanzure> and there's http://pytz.sourceforge.net/ for some predefined timezones.. ugh.
15:00 < kanzure> "'UTC' is Universal Time, also known as Greenwich Mean Time or GMT in the United Kingdom. "
15:00 < kanzure> >>> utc is pytz.timezone('GMT')
15:00 < kanzure> False
15:06 < bdesk> everyone should use UTC military time with no daylight savings.
15:08 < Utopiah> POSIX time
15:08 < bdesk> seconds since midnight jan 1 1970?
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15:20 < fenn> how not to do linear regression: http://ploticus.sourceforge.net/gallery/clickmap_area2.gif
15:21 < fenn> kanzure why aren't you just using the django datetime field?
15:21 < kanzure> fenn: when users type in a datetime on the site (or whatever), it's in their timezone
15:22 < kanzure> and then i have to convert it to some timezone on the server, and then back out to each user's respective timezone
15:22 < fenn> also, i think GMT and UTC are different, something about leap seconds
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15:22 < kanzure> but as it happens, i only have the user's GMT offset
15:23 < kanzure> i do have their city name.. maybe there's a table/dictionary i can use to convert from a city location geocoord thing to a timezone
15:23 < kanzure> *ugh*
15:24 < kanzure> or i could just ask the user to pick from a list of timezones i provide.. hm..
15:25 < kanzure> haha len(pytz.common_timezones) is 393
15:27 < kanzure> ooh ooh
15:27 < kanzure> http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/Fb:time
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15:30 < kanzure> well that just made my last few hours of timezone bullshitting totally irrelevant and a waste.
15:31 < fenn> i guess saying "you're doing it wrong" isn't helpful
15:32 < kanzure> fenn: as long as i'm writing a facebook app, i'm /always/ doin it wrong
15:32 < fenn> why are you writing a facebook app?
15:32 < kanzure> something about carbon
15:32 < fenn> are you even on facebook?
15:32 < kanzure> yes :(
15:33 < kanzure> fenn: here's a description: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2010/d1s1-3-andrew-hessel.html
15:33 < kanzure> the deal is that if i get this last bit of code written, and we present it to Conoco Phillips et al., i get $20k
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15:34 < fenn> that's not a bad deal, assuming you actually get paid
15:34  * kanzure nods
15:35 < nsh> wait what
15:35 < nsh> you're writing a facebook app, for money?
15:36 < kanzure> yes, why?
15:36 < fenn> next thing you know, he'll be writing iphone apps, o wait
15:36 < kanzure> i know, i know, i'm a whore
15:36 < nsh> what does the app do?
15:36 < kanzure> nsh: trades carbon credits
15:36 < nsh> heh
15:36 < kanzure> http://apps.facebook.com/carbon_bay/
15:37 < kanzure> it's not quite working yet, go easy on me ;)
15:37 < kanzure> i've spent way too much time making sure it doesn't look like ass
15:38 < nsh> but, things are supposed to look like ass until they work right
15:38 < bdesk> not if you want people to give you money
15:38 < kanzure> not if you're full of shit
15:38 < kanzure> same thing
15:38 < nsh> hmm
15:38 < nsh> what are you hosting on?
15:38 < kanzure> tubputer
15:39 < nsh> is that like, a thing?
15:39 < bdesk> i would not click on it.
15:39 < kanzure> that's actually fenn's computer in a tub
15:39 < kanzure> but no, i'm not using that
15:39 < kanzure> (i thought fenn would laugh)
15:39 < nsh> heh :)
15:39 < kanzure> nsh: amazon ec2
15:40  * nsh nods
15:40 < nsh> what web framework?
15:40 < kanzure> django
15:40 < nsh> cool
15:41 < kanzure> php programmers swarm around facebook for some reason
15:41 < kanzure> not sure why..
15:41 < nsh> because it's php mecca
15:41 < nsh> patches welcome, btw?
15:41 < kanzure> patches welcome for what?
15:41 < nsh> as in, can i look at your code
15:41 < bdesk> nsh: not you too
15:42  * nsh doesn't touch php, if that's what you're implying, bdesk 
15:42 < fenn> kanzure: so you want an experienced excited facebook app designer hookup?
15:42 < kanzure> nsh: no, i'm too embarrased by this
15:42 < nsh> meh
15:42 < kanzure> fenn: uh, maybe.. it's not xp_prg is it?
15:42 < fenn> no, someone i met at the dojo
15:42 < kanzure> sure
15:42 < kanzure> i'm willing to pay
15:42 < kanzure> i was trying to find someone who does facebook apps, in particular CSS
15:43 < kanzure> but apparently people only do CSS in wysiwyg editors these days
15:43 < nsh> not sure how much leeway there is for CSS in facebook apps, unless you're going for the iframe approach
15:43 < kanzure> there's pretty good leeway. check out the link to the facebook app.
15:43 < nsh> can you even use CSS with fbml?
15:43 < kanzure> yes
15:44 < nsh> oh, ok
15:44 < kanzure> for those of us who don't use facebook
15:44 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/screenshots/2010-06-18_carbon_bay.png
15:44 < kanzure> ^screenshot
15:44 < kanzure> although it's improved slightly since then
15:45 < nsh> hmm
15:45 < bdesk> facebook is like a new internet, where the internet always knows who you are.
15:46 < nsh> and looks through your pockets when you hang your jacket up
15:46 < nsh> btw
15:47 < nsh> how sensitive would you say a root certificate authority private key is?
15:47 < ENKI-][> i'm not entirely sure who i am. if facebook knows better than i do, perhaps that just means facebook guessed wrong
15:47 < nsh> say, Go Daddy Inc.'s 
15:48 < bdesk> "The root certificate is usually made trustworthy by some mechanism other than a certificate, such as by secure physical distribution."
15:49 < kanzure> translation: saddle up, we're going to the mustache store
15:49  * nsh smiles
15:50 < kanzure> ENKI-][: have you seen http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/meetlog.txt ? it might pique your interests
15:51 < fenn> ooh i wanna be that guy, who gets to carry the Very Important Briefcase containing a post it note with some numbers scribbled on it
15:51 < kanzure> oh hm the last update date was 2010-06-16 .. but just uploaded a new version a sec ago (so refresh if it matters)
15:52 < kanzure> file just passed the 1000 kb mark
15:52 < fenn> looks exactly the same
15:53 < kanzure> maybe you loaded it as i uploaded
15:53 < kanzure> it should go to 2010-07-06 now
15:55 < fenn> "Last year, I got these 5 oil sands company to bring 30 genetic engineers, their advisors, Rob Carlson, and a diybio representative, to go up to the oil sands, look at the real on the ground problems, " did anything ever make it to the list?
15:55 < fenn> i dont remember that at all
15:55 < kanzure> fenn: no, nothing made it to the list
15:56 < kanzure> nothing about that, i mean
15:56 < kanzure> i didn't know about it either until he mentioned it during his talk
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15:56 < kanzure> the diybio representative was jason bobe
15:56 < fenn> not a very good representative
15:56 < kanzure> no
15:56 < kanzure> i think it was u of alberta?
15:56 < kanzure> he got the oil sands companies to sponsor an igem team
15:57 < kanzure> so whichever one has a page on openwetware plastered with oil company banners and logos
15:57 < nsh> yay, oil sands
15:59 < ENKI-][> kanzure: i'll take a look at it
15:59 < kanzure> simpler explanation: their trip up to the oil sands was so that they could convince the oil companies to sponsor them
15:59 < kanzure> it's silly to assume it was two separate events
16:00 < fenn> god forbid they actually go up there to solve a real world problem for the sake of saving the planet or something
16:03 < nsh> hmm
16:09 < kanzure> so i dunno if anyone has noticed
16:09 < kanzure> but andrew has really been pushing Enron: Smartest Guys in the Room
16:09 < fenn> what does that mean?
16:09 < kanzure> as if we should be copying their schemes and strategies
16:11 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smartest_Guys_in_the_Room#Synopsis
16:11 < fenn> ah good, wikinotes :P
16:11 < kanzure> "Two years later, however, Enron became embroiled in scandal when two oil traders began betting on the oil markets, resulting in consistent and suspiciously high profits for the company"
16:12 < kanzure> heh "Pai was also notorious for using money from Enron shareholders to feed his obsessive habit of visiting strip clubs, "
16:13 < kanzure> "and for allegedly inviting strippers into his office and onto the Enron trading floor. "
16:13 < kanzure> "Pai abruptly resigned from EES with $250 million, soon after selling his stock."
16:13 < fenn> smartest guy in the room
16:15 < kanzure> that article sucked
16:15 < kanzure> this is probably better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_scandal
16:19 < kanzure> "In September 2008, a $7.2-billion settlement from a $40-billion lawsuit, was reached on behalf of the shareholders. The settlement was distributed among the lead plaintiff, University of California (UC), and 1.5 million individuals and groups. UC's law firm Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman and Robbins, received $688 million in fees, the highest in a U.S. securities fraud case."
16:21 < kanzure> that's quite a lawsuit
16:22 < kanzure> well, nevermind. i recall something more clever going at enron based on valuations of different energy markets, but that doesn't seem to be the case
16:28 < fenn> kanzure: did you know about the django manage.py dumpdata and loaddata? and that it dumps/loads yaml if you so desire
16:30 < fenn> for small sites you could just do a complete dump on every change, or maybe there's some better way to split it up than by app
16:32 < fenn> i dont think there's a knife in this entire building
16:34 < kanzure> why would you want a dump on every change?
16:34 < kanzure> i guess you mean on a change to the model
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16:38 < fenn> so you have history in revision control, not some database binary blob
16:38 < kanzure> got it
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17:06 < kanzure> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/06/16/bringing-biohacking-to-the-masses/
17:07 < kanzure> does anyone have a copy of "biohacking - an overview" by Chris Seidel?
17:07 < cluckj> neato
17:08 < kanzure> some interest in diybio from beijing
17:08 < kanzure> http://2009.igem.org/Team:PKU_Beijing/Human/Overview
17:08 < cluckj> no, I don't have a copy
17:08 < cluckj> if you find one, let me know :)
17:10 < kanzure> diybio survey thingy? http://2009.igem.org/Team:PKU_Beijing/Human/Survey
17:11 < kanzure> "In order to evaluate the probability of conducting DIYbio experiments in China, we have launched a survey to investigate the availability of necessary experimental materials to DIY at home. By analyzing the results, we expect to propose some instructive advices and reach a simple conclusion. "
17:11 < kanzure> "We conducted a sampling survey by telephone to inquire into 17 biotech firms about their provision for orderers."
17:11 < kanzure> "We asked these companies to deliver the goods which they have to a team member's home in a community in Beijing."
17:11 < kanzure> cool a lot of the orders were accepted
17:12 < cluckj> nice
17:12 < kanzure> "Other companies still took up our order as we stated our "DIY at home" idea, although some of them hesitated a little. "
17:12 < kanzure> "Fig4. The distribution of Ethidium Bromide order acceptance rate." eek
17:12 < kanzure> what worries me more is that they would *want* to buy ethidium bromide
17:13 < kanzure> what also worries me is that they were using this study to say that there should be *more* regulation
17:13 < cluckj> oi
17:13 < kanzure> articles they were referencing: http://2009.igem.org/Team:PKU_Beijing/Human/Reference
17:13  * kanzure reads the discover magazine blog article now
17:14 < kanzure> oh boy, tito jankowski as a public figure of open source?
17:14 < cluckj> my whole schtick is that there doesn't need to be regulation
17:14 < cluckj> D:
17:14 < kanzure> "With a prototype already up and running, they hope to have a near-final version completed by the fall."
17:15 < kanzure> "From the project description, it's clear that these bioentrepreneurs hope to capitalize on..."
17:15 < kanzure> that says it enough
17:15 < cluckj> "A supply rating according categories and safety should be established for individual clients, safer materials like kits and nucleases may be permitted to free trade, while hazardous materials like ethidium bromide and competent cells from various strains should be strictly controlled by the government."
17:15 < cluckj> I like the first part of that
17:15 < kanzure> "Could this project or other open source biology initiatives, like BioBricks, help produce the Bill Gates or Steve Jobs of the synthetic biology world?"
17:15 < kanzure> there are so many things wrong with that question
17:15 < kanzure> i don't even know where to begin
17:16 < cluckj> lol
17:16 < cluckj> I think it's just media hype
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17:16 < kanzure> first, the most obvious one: bill gates and steve jobs never did "open source"
17:17 < kanzure> second: biobricks is making a commendable effort to have an open standard and get around patent litigation issues for biobricks, but i dunno if it's actually open source in the traditional sense
17:17 < kanzure> (#2 is a minor nitpick)
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17:17 < kanzure> third: do you really /want/ a steve jobs of synthetic biology?
17:18 < cluckj> o_o
17:18 < cluckj> what would that even look like
17:18 < lepton> do not want!
17:18 < lepton> :::goes back to editing hal files:::
17:18 < kanzure> fourth: implying- even through a convoluted article- that josh perfetto and tito jankowski are the next bill gates and steve jobs, is totally retarded
17:19 < kanzure> the sheer level of hype is ridiculous
17:20 < kanzure> "rom the project description, it's clear that these bioentrepreneurs hope to capitalize on the recent flurry of interest in synthetic biology sparked by Craig Venter's synthesis of an artificial genome and other likeminded endeavors."
17:20 < cluckj> lol
17:20 < kanzure> comparing a thermocycler to an artificial chromosome? really?
17:20 < cluckj> dude....breathe......
17:21 < ENKI-][> hm
17:21 < ENKI-][> the steve jobs of synthetic biology would have either a much greater or much lesser likelyhood of major health problems
17:22 < ENKI-][> he probably wouldn't be quite as bald. that's more of a trivial problem
17:22 < genehacker> why wouldn't they be bald?
17:22 < uniqanomaly> PR
17:22 < genehacker> being bald makes it easier to put the electrodes on
17:22 < uniqanomaly> ;)
17:23 < ENKI-][> oh, there's that i guess
17:23 < ENKI-][> maybe he would be balder
17:23 < ENKI-][> he would probably miss press conferences due to surgery even more often than the original, though
17:25 < uniqanomaly> and lots of cranial implants
17:25 < uniqanomaly> oh, sorry that's borg
17:25 < uniqanomaly> nvm
17:25 < ENKI-][> laser eyes
17:25 < uniqanomaly> ;)
17:26 < ENKI-][> http://hackaday.com/2009/10/27/head-mounted-computer-with-spit-bailing-wire/ <-- it occurs to me that this is the best project i've seen on hackaday in a while
17:26 < genehacker> does anyone know of any limits on how fast PCR can be?
17:26 < ENKI-][> insomuch as i could build it if i could afford the parts, and it would actually be useful
17:26 < kanzure> genehacker: you can use a laser and do it in under a minute
17:27 < genehacker> on a small sample?
17:27 < cluckj> kanzure, seriously?
17:27 < kanzure> cluckj: yes
17:27 < kanzure> one sec
17:27 < genehacker> why even use a laser when you can use a serpentine microfluidic channel?
17:27 < genehacker> I want to try some microfluidics
17:28 < genehacker> some useful microfluidics and serpentine PCR chips look pretty easy
17:28 < kanzure> cluckj: http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/PCR%20-%20Nanodroplet%20real-time%20PCR%20system%20with%20laser%20assisted%20heating.pdf
17:28 < kanzure> also: http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/Petri%20dish%20PCR%20-%20laser-heated%20reactions%20in%20nanoliter%20droplet%20arrays.pdf
17:28 < cluckj> sweet, thanks
17:29 < cluckj> ooo, now I see why you're hot for microfluidics
17:30 < cluckj> if you can do PCR with a laser, you can just run it through a microfluidic array
17:30 < kanzure> cluckj: this video should explain why (it's ridiculously short): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HrRuaLFGmY
17:30 < cluckj> yeah
17:30 < kanzure> here's one of the PCR-on-a-lab-on-a-chip dealies: http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/gkm389%20Miniaturized%20PCR%20chips%20for%20nucleic%20acid%20amplification%20and%20analysislatest%20advances%20and%20future%20trends.pdf
17:31 < kanzure> page 3 has a diagram on the upper right
17:32 < cluckj> cool
17:32 < cluckj> hah, my stellarium bug is high priority now
17:33 < kanzure> at least the hype machine is bringing in some money. sigh.
17:33  * kanzure just updated http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ#Has_DIYbio_been_in_the_news.3F
17:34 < cluckj> o_o
17:35 < cluckj> have you ever come across any academic articles on diy bio?
17:35 < kanzure> yes
17:35 < cluckj> (I haven't, that's why I'm asking)
17:35 < kanzure> some were published in nature
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17:36 < kanzure> hrm i wonder if i have the citations laying around
17:36 < cluckj> I think I have the ones published in science/nature
17:37 < kanzure> there was one by markus schmidt
17:37 < kanzure> but it might have been more about synthetic biology and regulations and only mentioned diybio in a footnote or something
17:37 < cluckj> diffusion of syn bio?
17:37 < kanzure> maybe.. but also markus' german article
17:39 < kanzure> http://www.markusschmidt.eu/pdf/09_12_profil_bio_bastler.pdf
17:39 < kanzure> http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article5275006/Gen-Manipulation-am-heimischen-Kuechentisch.html?print=yes#reqdrucken
17:39 < cluckj> word, thanks
17:39 < kanzure> either one or both might just be a news article
17:39 < cluckj> I think there was a paul rabinow article somewhere
17:40 < kanzure> i'm debating whether or not to post some of the recent news article to the diybio mailing list
17:40 < cluckj> hrm
17:40 < cluckj> might be like kicking a beehive
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17:45 < kanzure> why oh why did i offer to do manufacturing of openpcr parts
17:47 < cluckj> so you can ensure it's openness?
17:48 < kanzure> because i'm a moron, is more like it
17:48 < cluckj> geez
17:48 < cluckj> its
17:48 < kanzure> cluckj: i don't think you're allergic to hype the same way i am.
17:48 < kanzure> oh, you were commenting about your grammar
17:48 < cluckj> yeah
17:49 < cluckj> or lack thereof :x
17:49 < cluckj> and I'm not allergic to hype in the same way you are :)
17:50 < cluckj> I'm a little allergic to reporters
17:54 < cluckj> I really need to go to the oss
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18:03 < kanzure> "The project I was working on at the time (Open hardware gel electrophoresis) required crazy tolerances, ~0.001?"
18:03 < kanzure> wut
18:04 < kanzure> "With open hardware for biotech, we're making new and better tools for a completely new type of scientist. Sketching in a notebook, and Google sketchup and cardboard and foam board. Sketchup is awesome because it's fairly straightforward to get into an Illustrator file to send to Ponoko."
18:04 < kanzure> fuck
18:04 < kanzure> not more google sketchup :/
18:05 < kanzure> fenn: actually, i have an idea
18:06 < kanzure> as an attempt to promote some actual "open source" stuff going on in the community
18:06 < kanzure> how about i set up a .git repository and commit some openscad files into it
18:06 < kanzure> and then have someone else contribute changes back to it, or a patch
18:06 < kanzure> and make a big public stink about it
18:06 < kanzure> "THIS is what you should be doing"
18:06 < kanzure> openscad because it's a text-based format, not because it's useful
18:07 < cluckj> lead by example?
18:11 < cluckj> who's doing diy bio in ann arbor?
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18:27 < kanzure> cluckj: Johnny Graves?
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19:23 < kanzure> "Look about you Pinky: the jungle. Poisonous plants, blood-thirsty carnevors, the stench of decay permeating the air."
19:23 < kanzure> "Actually, I rather of like it. Smells just like an air-wick solid. Narf."
19:24 < kanzure> "We must find a way home. I got it! We'll construct a molecular scrambling teleportation device that will beam us back to the lab. YES! Now, all we need are a few simple components: an atom smasher, some stray rods of strontium-90, a 3/16 s
19:24 < kanzure> ocket wrench..."
19:24 < kanzure> "Um, there's a big pile of dung under that tree."
19:24 < kanzure> "DUNG! Of course. With dung, I could make a ... huge... dung... uh, monorail?"
19:27 < fenn> kanzure: yeah i was going to make some pcr drawing in dxf format (2d) or svg (they're both equally terrible for reading diffs)
19:27 < kanzure> what do you think would work better? svg or openscad for that?
19:27 < fenn> problem with openscad is you can't do anything with it but reprap or cnc mill from solid blocks (if you have cam software that can handle STL; i don't)
19:27 < kanzure> from an adoption standpoint
19:27 < kanzure> right
19:28 < kanzure> with svg, you can get other people to use it (inkscape)
19:28 < kanzure> with openscad, you can demonstrate diff on txt
19:28 < kanzure> i wonder if there's an something-to-svg language thingy
19:28 < kanzure> i guess it could be something done in python using cairo?
19:28 < shepazu> kanzure: what specific features would you need for diffs in SVG?
19:28 < fenn> i think dxf is actually better for this kind of thing
19:28 < kanzure> fenn: shepazu is our resident svg expert, fyi
19:28 < fenn> anyway there's software to convert between dxf/svg
19:28 < fenn> shepazu: mostly just keep the ordering the same in the file
19:29  * shepazu doesn't know what that means
19:29 < kanzure> the order of the elements in the .svg file
19:30 < shepazu> right, but how does that help diffs?
19:30 < kanzure> "Look up, Brain! A mango!" "Mango? YES. We'll build a platform, uh, if only we had some extruded aluminum t
19:30 < fenn> the xml... keep the element on the same line it was on in the input file (before you edited it)
19:30 < kanzure> o make scaffold with; if only we had some steel to make an aluminum extruder, if only we had a smelting plant to make steel.."
19:30 < fenn> i swear these IT guys must have a vendetta against me or something
19:30 < AJollyLife> i want a mango :(
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19:31 < shepazu> how is DXF better than SVG here?
19:31 < fenn> it has circles, and drawing programs that do stuff like add dimensions and snap to intersection
19:31 < fenn> and add fillet
19:31 < shepazu> that's authoring-tool stuff, not format stuff
19:32 < kanzure> fenn: i think that showing off the 'diff' is more important to getting our point across
19:32 < fenn> kanzure: honestly nobody will care, they will just think 'oh gawd kanzure is having a hissy fit again'
19:32 < kanzure> but but but
19:32 < kanzure> actually i was thinking of something staged
19:32 < fenn> having code to run an arduino with a stupid power resistor on an aluminum block is like 2 hours of coding
19:32 < kanzure> (1) i post a .git of some weird design
19:33 < kanzure> (2) someone (you) posts a link to a .git with the updated version
19:33 < kanzure> "oh look! progress!"
19:33 < kanzure> "huh? why is this interesting?" "welll..."
19:33 < fenn> yeah good luck with that
19:34 < kanzure> you don't think so? hrm
19:34 < kanzure> davidad and i were talking tonight
19:34 < kanzure> he's over at singularity university
19:34 < kanzure> they have 80 grad students this year
19:34 < kanzure> they divide them up into "teams" for releasing a project at the end of their stay
19:34 < kanzure> he's on a team with 19 other people
19:34 < kanzure> only one of them (other than him) knows about revision control
19:39 < fenn> not surprising
19:39 < fenn> 10% is about average for science/engineering types, throw in 50% business people
19:40 < kanzure> i'm somewhat surprised that you're against the idea of distributing some open source hardware via git :P
19:40 < kanzure> i guess there's really not much out there that can be used under revision control
19:40 < kanzure> since it's all .pdf and .stl
19:40 < kanzure> but you're claiming it's also pointless to bother showing it in use?
19:41 < AJollyLife> fenn: really, only 10% of science/engineering types know about revision control?
19:44 < kanzure> http://diybio.org/2008/07/09/diybio-in-5-minutes-oreilly-ignite-boston-2008/
19:44 < kanzure> "I'm a biotech patent attorney, and would be happy to answer questions about how to protect and possibly patent new ideas your group comes up with. It's important to file a preliminary patent application before disseminating information about a new concept to the public, and this is an integral part of the process of bringing a potentially important new development in biotech/biopharm to development. Let me know if you'd like to talk fu
19:44 < kanzure> >_>
19:45 < AJollyLife> that would seem to go against the whole open source principle
19:45 < kanzure> it sounds pretty scary to me
19:45 < kanzure> i hold that there is not a single "open source" diybio project out there at the moment
19:45 < kanzure> wait, am i right?
19:45 < kanzure> i think so
19:51 < cluckj> :\
19:51 < kanzure> http://github.com/100ideas/ucam i don't see licensing information here
19:53 < cluckj> it's derivative from two open source projects, but I don't think that means anything
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20:20 < kanzure> "i was formerly director of intellectual property at harvard university"
20:20 < kanzure> i think leslie meant the entire university
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20:39 < fenn> http://openpcr.org/build-yours/
20:39 < fenn> i think it speaks for itself
20:40 -!- Bruns [~Bruns@c-68-34-207-23.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:42 < kanzure> "Make yours
20:42 < kanzure> Get involved!
20:42 < kanzure> If you want detailed specs, sign up as a donor to OpenPCR. For just $32 you get behind the scenes months before anyone else with access to photos, design documents, and software for the OpenPCR project. http://openpcr.org/kickstarter"
20:42 < kanzure> you know, they should make up their mind
20:42 < Bruns> biotech?
20:42 < kanzure> "Thanks for your note! We send out releases to our supporters on Kickstarter. We will be releasing everything to the public in late September. We're focused on executing our planned design and will begin supporting developers after we get to that point."
20:42 < kanzure> if they sell openpcr and include schematics, that's fine
20:43 < kanzure> but if they con people into supporting an open source project that only supporters get access to
20:43 < kanzure> that's something different.
20:43 < kanzure> Bruns: hey
20:43 < kanzure> Bruns: i was wondering if you could do something for me
20:43 < Bruns> yeah sure
20:43 < kanzure> oh wait. i just remembered what it was
20:43 < kanzure> it's pretty lame
20:44 < kanzure> what do you think the potential is for this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nHKYWc-rnY
20:44 < Bruns> oh
20:44 < Bruns> ok
20:44 < Bruns> LOL
20:44 < Bruns> I would say if it reaches above 80%
20:44 < kanzure> it was on http://000chan.org/b/res/821.html
20:44 < Bruns> then we might get critical mass
20:44 < kanzure> keep watching
20:44 < Bruns> kanzure: are you lurking 000chan now?
20:44 < kanzure> uhh uhh
20:45 < kanzure> no of course not
20:45 < Bruns> mmmmmhhhmmmm
20:45 < Bruns> I accidentally broke the board, otherwise the video would be embeded
20:45 < Bruns> i have to fix those features next time I care
20:46 < Bruns> So what is this OpenPCR about?
20:46 < kanzure> two guys getting lots of media hype over an open source project that isn't actually open source
20:46 < Bruns> lol
20:46 < Bruns> What is the open source?
20:46 < kanzure> what?
20:47 < AJollyLife> kanzure: but it has Open in the name!
20:47 < kanzure> OH MAI GAWD
20:47 < AJollyLife> clearly its open.
20:47 < Bruns> kanzure: http://000chan.org/fr/res/346.html
20:47 < kanzure> is /fr for /france?
20:48 < Bruns> lolno
20:48 < Bruns> fr=fucking rage
20:48 < Bruns> but nice trollan
20:49 < Bruns> So what does this open source that is not open source do? something about genome at home from what I read
20:49 < kanzure> what? it doesn't do anything except get these two people media attention
20:50 < fenn> and $10k cold hard casssssh
20:50 < kanzure> 4chan should flood kickstarter with these fake projects
20:50 < fenn> but whatever, it's not like i'm jealous or anything
20:50 < kanzure> every possible permutation
20:50 < Bruns> I could get a lot worse people than 4chan
20:50 < kanzure> OpenOligoSynthesizer
20:50 < Bruns> 4chan really isn't good for much of anything anymore :/
20:50 < kanzure> OpenHPLC
20:51 < kanzure> OpenMassSpec
20:51 < fenn> open toothbrush holder! help us reach our goal of $10k and we'll share crayon drawings on a napkin!
20:51 < kanzure> fenn: you should do it
20:51 < kanzure> wait, is there enough pent up rage about kickstarter/diybio yet?
20:51 < fenn> only in here
20:51 < Bruns> You all don't like diybio?
20:51 < fenn> everybody else is getting rich
20:51 < kanzure> Bruns: i like diybio a lot!
20:51 < AJollyLife> id hardly say 10k is rich
20:51 < kanzure> i've been involved with the community since the beginning
20:52 < kanzure> AJollyLife: fenn lived on $10k for 4 years
20:52 < kanzure> or something?
20:52 < Bruns> Then who is mad at diybio?
20:52 < AJollyLife> yes, but that doesnt == rich
20:52 < kanzure> Bruns: it's not that.. uh
20:52 < kanzure> Bruns: it's just a lot of people who don't seem to know what they are doing
20:52 < kanzure> and then they say, "it's open source!" but then where are the files?
20:52 < kanzure> and the repositories?
20:52 < Bruns> Also kanzure that jellyfish idea that everyone thinks is stupid my friend and I are doing, I am in contact with a pet store who is looking for the jellyfish for me
20:52 < kanzure> and the OSI-compatible license or fuck any sort of license?
20:52 < kanzure> who thought it was stupid?
20:52 < kanzure> raising a jellyfish is fine, imho
20:53 < Bruns> lol, not for raising a jellyfish
20:53 < AJollyLife> how do jellyfish taste?
20:53 < kanzure> Bruns: take a look at all this hype: http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ#Has_DIYbio_been_in_the_news.3F
20:53 < Bruns> genome sequencing on it and then cultivating the isolated gene and trying to purify it over a series of mutations to have the same effect on other animals
20:53 < kanzure> Bruns: what i'm upset about is the disparity between the "hype" people (the people who hype it up) and the fact that they aren't really doing anything
20:53 < kanzure> but really, check the link
20:53 < kanzure> and look.
20:54 < AJollyLife> thats a lot of media
20:54 < Bruns> lol
20:54 < kanzure> these are articles in the NY Times, SF Chronicle, BBC, O'Reilly Radar, Hackaday, Hacker News, Wired, Gourmet Magazine (wtf), The Guardian, Make Magazine, ..
20:54 < Bruns> It is a good thing in a way, even though you get the 20/80 effect
20:54 < kanzure> we don't even get 20%
20:54 < kanzure> we get 0%
20:54 < Bruns> the more people you get the higher that 20% will get
20:55 < kanzure> uh
20:55 < kanzure> in theory..
20:55 < Bruns> lol
20:56 < Bruns> Well at any rate, I am trying to get people interested in wanting to do this project with my friend and I
20:56 < Bruns> Seems kinda hard, though
20:57 < kanzure> Bruns: you still haven't even identified what the project is
20:57 < kanzure> you just keep mentioning a jellyfish and some articles about how it reverts in its life cycle every once in a while..
20:57 < Bruns> oh lol
20:57 < Bruns> I kinda ramble... i guess
20:59 < Bruns> Well we are planning on doing comparative sequencing..then over a series mutating and purifying the gene etc.
20:59 < Bruns> I am bad at explaining things :/
21:01 < Bruns> I will shut up now...:/
21:01 < kanzure> fenn: i wonder what's next. ReallyOpenPCR
21:02 < kanzure> ReallyDIYbio
21:02 < kanzure> heh
21:02 < kanzure> ActualHardware oh wait
21:02 < Bruns> lul
21:02 < kanzure> (to be fair, dave actually gets stuff done)
21:02 < kanzure> Bruns: http://actualhardware.com/ is his site
21:02 < Bruns> they make recycling signs out of texas?
21:02 < Bruns> and ride bikes...
21:03 < Bruns> kanzure ^
21:04 < kanzure> custom bike part manufacturing
21:05 < Bruns> So what does that have to do with texas, trees, or even illegal immigration?
21:05 < kanzure> based in texas
21:06 < Bruns> they have a secret base full of illegal immigrants making cheap bikes out of recycled texas?
21:06 < Bruns> Is that it?
21:06 < kanzure> YES
21:06 < kanzure> Bruns: are you thinking what i'm thinking?
21:06 < Bruns> Yes
21:06 < kanzure> ok good
21:08 < Bruns> I love playing with my wiiner
21:08 < Bruns> I just hate it when my arms get tired...
21:09 < AJollyLife> work out more
21:09 < kanzure> or just pay me a few thousand bucks on kickstarter for myostatin inhibitors
21:09 < Bruns> Playing with my wiiner is my workout
21:09 < kanzure> Bruns: we call that jelqing
21:09 < AJollyLife> i thought that was cost prohibitive at this point
21:10 < AJollyLife> (for myostatin inhibitors)
21:10 < kanzure> AJollyLife: jelqing or myostatin?
21:10 < kanzure> no
21:10 < Bruns> How about you both pay me backing all the shit I will do with my jellyfish
21:10 < kanzure> i actually have enough money at the moment
21:10 < AJollyLife> hm. last i looked at it was 2 years ago
21:10 < kanzure> i was going to do it via some gene hacking on plants
21:10 < kanzure> i just need motivation to work on it and/or more time
21:11 < Bruns> kanzure
21:11 < Bruns> how about you look at making animals preform mitosis....then I will give motivation
21:11 < kanzure> that message made no sense
21:12 < kanzure> do you mean you want me to make a bacteria culture?
21:12 < genehacker> jellyfish?
21:12 < genehacker> are you trying to get the GFP gene?
21:12 < Bruns> JELLYFISH EVERYWHERE!
21:12 < kanzure> uh oh clash of the chan nerds
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21:12 < Bruns> that is chantard, good sir
21:12 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i blame you for this
21:13 < kanzure> and the rest of the goons
21:13 < genehacker> there's a much easier way to get GFP, pet stores already sell GFP fish
21:13 < genehacker> or are you trying to cultivate jelly fish?
21:14 < Bruns> lol no
21:14 < Bruns> we arent trying to get GFP fish
21:14 < Bruns> >cultivate jellyfish
21:14 < kanzure> genehacker: read the messages by 'brunsgenus' here: http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-07-03.log
21:14 < kanzure> to see what he's up to
21:14 < Bruns> omgz
21:14 < Bruns> LOGS ON MEH
21:14 < Bruns> no no
21:14 < Bruns> :(
21:14 < Bruns> I hate logs
21:15 < kanzure> Bruns: but you get 20 MB of other goodies from in here :)
21:15 < Bruns> NU
21:15 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/
21:15 < Bruns> I don wan gudies
21:15 < Bruns> You keep them ALL D:
21:16 < AJollyLife> Bruns: how old are you?
21:16 < Bruns> 12
21:16 < kanzure> 19
21:16 < Bruns> ...believe me?
21:17 < AJollyLife> yes, yes i do.
21:17 < Bruns> :D
21:17 < Bruns> If you guys are looking for a good time
21:18 < Bruns> http://000chan.org/b/
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21:22 < Bruns> A movie about lesbians....
21:22 < Bruns> What the hell is this world coming to.
21:22 < Bruns> ?*
21:25 < genehacker> your jellyfish plan seems rather ambitious
21:25 < Bruns> genehacker, thanks
21:25 < fenn> how to pwn kickstarter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbOtAApMbww
21:26 < kanzure> heat and air conditioning? heck yeah
21:26 < Bruns> lol
21:26 < Bruns> FUCK YAR
21:27 < fenn> i must have missed the part where they actually got it working correctly
21:28 < Bruns> genehacker so you think I shouldnt do it?
21:29 < genehacker> I don't know I'm still reading more about it
21:29 < Bruns> oh
21:29 < genehacker> humans and jellyfish are quite different though
21:29 < genehacker> have you looked into lobsters though?
21:29 < Bruns> I know, hence having to mutate and purify their asses
21:30 < Bruns> My friend and I are thinking we might be able to work our way up the animal kingdom
21:31 < genehacker> one thing for sure is that it's going to take a lot of work
21:31 < Bruns> I know, that's why it is fun.
21:32 < Bruns> I am going to graduate school etc. for exactly this, though
21:32 < genehacker> you might try to get it to work in hydra, as those are model organisms:
21:33 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_%28genus%29
21:33 < genehacker> neat
21:33 < genehacker> fenn why doesn't your hackerspace build it's own airconditioning?
21:33 < Bruns> this jellyfish will be easier to get than the hydra
21:33 < Bruns> we have already looked into it
21:33 < genehacker> whaa?
21:33 < genehacker> how the heck is it easier to get than hydra?
21:34 < Bruns> Because the jellyfish is already being sent to me....
21:34 < Bruns> lol
21:34 < Bruns> well, about to be
21:34 < Bruns> lol
21:34 < Bruns> I told him we should look into the hydra as well though
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21:34 < genehacker> there's a new super-simple super efficient air conditioning process out there that you guys might look into using
21:35 < Bruns> breathing
21:35 < Bruns> I do like that the hydra ages incredibly slow
21:36 < Alystair> any qwerty phone fans wanna take a peak at something I'm working on at the moment
21:36 < Bruns> yah sure
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21:38 < Bruns> How much does genome sequencing cost again?
21:38 < kanzure> it's going down pretty fast
21:38 < kanzure> i hear claims right now that it's at about $10k
21:39 < kanzure> but i don't have any links for you for places that would do it for $10k
21:39 < genehacker> it's still pretty expensive and the number of completely sequenced organism is around 30 or so
21:39 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure that's not true, genehacker 
21:39 < genehacker> at least the ones I can find
21:39 < kanzure> bdesk: do you know the number of whole genome sequenced organisms off the top of your head
21:40 < kanzure> yeah, like on the ncbi website
21:40 < Bruns> yeah
21:40 < Bruns> 10k is not cheap....
21:40 < kanzure> Bruns: 20 years ago it was $1B
21:40 < kanzure> 10 years ago it was about $1M
21:40 < genehacker> notice I said completely sequenced
21:40 < jrayhawk> Hydras tend to grow unaided in aquaria.
21:40 < kanzure> 5 years ago about $350k
21:40 < Bruns> someone said something about buying an old genome sequencer for 300 bucks
21:41 < kanzure> Bruns: that was me
21:41 < kanzure> but to be honest, it's not going to work out too well for you
21:41 < Bruns> why
21:41 < kanzure> it'll probably be a 484 or something
21:41 < Bruns> eh
21:41 < Bruns> thats not bad
21:41 < kanzure> and so you'll only be able to sequence 20bp segments at a time
21:41 < Bruns> I can make 484+ from one sale
21:41 < kanzure> illumina 484
21:41 < kanzure> anyway, at 20bp per sequenced segment, you're talking about a *lot* of runs
21:41 < kanzure> especially to get whole genome coverage
21:41 < kanzure> even for a single chromosome
21:42 < jrayhawk> Alystair: I am a qwerty phone fan I like peaking at things!
21:42 < Bruns> kanzure, how much time are we talking about would this take?
21:43 < kanzure> well it took 10 years of a few hundred of these machines working in parallel to sequence the human genome (?)
21:43 < kanzure> my numbers might be a bit off :)
21:44 < Bruns> D:
21:44 < Bruns> 10 years?!
21:44 < Bruns> omgz
21:44 < kanzure> but those were really old machines
21:44 < jrayhawk> I think they actually switched to better hardware at some point.
21:44 < kanzure> they did
21:44 < Bruns> kanzure how long would it take for sequencing today?
21:45 < kanzure> i don't know how to give you a good estimate, sorry
21:45 < kanzure> but definitely less than a year
21:45 < Alystair> if you're typing on a qwerty phone would you prefer a landscape or portrait screen?
21:45 < AJollyLife> probably depends also on how much funding you have
21:45 < kanzure> Alystair: i'd prefer a ps/2 port
21:45 < kanzure> thanks
21:45 < Bruns> I can always manage to get more funding.
21:45 < kanzure> uh, how?
21:45 < Bruns> so less than a year?
21:45 < Bruns> lol
21:46 < Alystair> kanzure: nokia has always had bluetooth keyboard option, but I meant one with a physical qwerty board
21:46 < Bruns> If I told you then I wouldn't be able to continue using it
21:46 < jrayhawk> It doesn't particularly matter to me, although most software infrastructure is optimized for 4:3 or greater aspect ratio
21:46 < kanzure> oh please.. not another adwords spamking
21:46 < Bruns> wat
21:46 < Bruns> no
21:47 < jrayhawk> I was quite fond of the E70 keyboard design, myself.
21:47 < Bruns> I am going to go buy taco bell
21:47 < Bruns> anyone want any?
21:47 < jrayhawk> Just a pity about the operating system.
21:47 < genehacker> anyway when I tried to find some whole genomes I had trouble finding them
21:47 < kanzure> Bruns: get me a gordita crunch
21:47 < genehacker> all I could find was mitochondrial dna
21:47 < Bruns> 1 k so dilla
21:47 < Bruns> got it
21:47 < Bruns> anyone else?
21:47 < AJollyLife> i try not to eat taco bell
21:47 < jrayhawk> spicy chicken crunchwrap supreme
21:48 < kanzure> did jrayhawk just make shit up?
21:48 < jrayhawk> DO NOT QUESTION MY SHIT
21:48 < Bruns> alright
21:48 < Bruns> I will be back
21:48 < genehacker> also I am now considering replacing my mtDNA with mtDNA from another vertebrate
21:48 < genehacker> just to troll people
21:48 < genehacker> after all mtdna is fairly conserved...
21:52 < genehacker> oh wait around 50 or so vertebrate complete genomes
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22:05 < kanzure> fenn: fyi, i've cleaned up about 20 GB off of davinci
22:05 < kanzure> apparently i had a copy of KEGG laying around
22:06 < kanzure> which was 12 GB alone
22:09 < kanzure> "Gene Doping: A Review of Performance-Enhancing Genetics"
22:11 < genehacker> has anyone actually done it yet?
22:11 < kanzure> dunno. but it's been banned :)
22:12 < kanzure> actually i should know if it's been done
22:12 < kanzure> i should look into it more closely. sorry.
22:20 < kanzure> bdesk: do you log #python? because someone helped me out earlier tonight, and i can't find it in my backlog
22:21 < kanzure> not only that, but irssi crapped out on me and didn't log because the hard drive was full
22:25 < kanzure> ah it's because it wasn't in #python
22:25 < kanzure> phew
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22:59 < Bruns> Sorry, 
22:59 < Bruns> I didn't go to taco smell :/
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--- Log closed Wed Jul 07 00:00:17 2010