--- Log opened Tue Jul 13 00:00:17 2010
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05:18 < kanzure> http://humanityplus.org/2010/07/presidential-commission-on-bioethics/
05:20 < kanzure> Making humas smarter via cognitive enhancers (part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnAyTpDixpU
05:20 < kanzure> Making humas smarter via cognitive enhancers (part 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg63KHFQ-ds
05:20 < kanzure> Making humas smarter via cognitive enhancers (part 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwtACUhwCq0
05:20 < kanzure> *humans
05:23 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDaXNZ670Os natasha vita-more talking about diyhplus at 1;54
05:25 < kanzure> 1:54
05:28 < augur> kanzure, any suggestions for northpaw-esque devices?
05:29 < splicer> my biopunk logo shows up 1.50 in the clip
05:30 < augur> splicer: you're famous!
05:33 < splicer> ...rite
05:33 < augur> :P
05:34 < kanzure> splicer: and she attributes the creation of 'biopunk' to you :P
05:34 < splicer> really?
05:35 < kanzure> it sounded like it
05:35 < augur> NVM has always seemed a bit .. i dont know.
05:35 < kanzure> her prime was in the 70s, when she did her best work on transhumanism
05:35 < kanzure> unfortunately, nobody remembers it
05:35 < kanzure> 70s or 80s
05:36 < kanzure> i.e., on television shows all the time :P
05:36 < augur> she just seems more like an artist trying to grasp at something that isn't art
05:37 < kanzure> this guy would tell you that his body is in fact art: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3uPwmMPXqU
05:37 < augur> oh im sure
05:38 < kanzure> so how could you say it's not art, then?
05:38 < augur> transhumanism is more than just art
05:38 < augur> and im not sure that transhumanism in total /is/ art
05:38 < augur> some may take their own acts as art, but that doesn
05:38 < augur> doesn't make the whole of it art
05:39 < kanzure> so what?
05:39 < augur> there is no so what
05:39 < kanzure> that's not much of a supporting argument to what you were previously saying :P
05:39 < kanzure> it's fairly unrelated
05:39 < augur> uh
05:39 < augur> no, its quite related
05:40 < kanzure> "she just seems like an artist trying to grasp at something that isn't art"
05:40 < augur> transhumanism isnt art, NVM seems more like an artist trying to grasp something that isn't art
05:40 < kanzure> then you claim "doesn't make the whole as art"
05:40 < augur> there's nothing complicated about what i said here
05:40 < kanzure> but it's completely full of shit and unrelated
05:40 < kanzure> who cares if it is or is not art entirely?
05:40 < augur> nonsense
05:40 < kanzure> and what does that have to do with NVM as an artist?
05:41 < augur> what do you mean what does it have to do
05:41 < kanzure> the two statements are unrelated and "what does it have to do" is a request for clarification from you
05:41 < augur> do you understand english?
05:41 < augur> or are you just fucking with me
05:41 < kanzure> hahah
05:42 < kanzure> so look
05:42 < kanzure> transhumanism as a whole isn't just an art
05:42 < kanzure> nvm is an artist
05:42 < augur> yes, i know this
05:42 < kanzure> these two facts do not lead up to "transhumanism is not art at all"
05:42 < augur> i didnt say that
05:43 < augur> you're making things up
05:43 < kanzure> okay.
05:44 < kanzure> 07:36 < augur> she just seems more like an artist trying to grasp at something that isn't art
05:44 < kanzure> 07:38 < augur> transhumanism is more than just art
05:44 < augur> yes? and?
05:44 < kanzure> okay so first you say it isn't art
05:44 < augur> maybe you dont understand what the word "seems" means
05:44 < kanzure> and then you say it is more than art
05:44 < augur> no, i DIDNT say its not art
05:44 < kanzure> "trying to grasp at something that isn't art"
05:44 < augur> i said she SEEMS like an artist who is trying to grasp something that ISNT art
05:44 < kanzure> anyway, the descrepancy in those two comments threw me off
05:44 < augur> there is no discrepancy
05:44 < kanzure> uh.. "something that isn't art" and "is more than just art"
05:45 < augur> "seems"
05:45 < kanzure> "appears"
05:45 < augur> yes, and?
05:45 < augur> if X seems like Y, does that mean X _is_ Y?
05:45 < augur> no
05:46 < augur> does it mean Y is true at all? no
05:46 < augur> not necessarily of the thing in question, anyway
05:46 < augur> "It seems like it's bigger than it actually is" doesnt mean "it" IS bigger than it actually is
05:46 < augur> that would make no sense
05:46 < augur> but it SEEMS like it
05:46 < augur> well she SEEMS like an artist who's trying to understand something thats not art
05:47 < augur> that doesnt mean that she IS an artist trying to grasp something thats not art
05:47 < augur> she just SEEMS like one
05:47 < kanzure> uhuh. okay.
05:48 < augur> her whole presentation of transhumanism has always seemed more like the presentations of scientific research by artists who don't really understand the research
05:48 < kanzure> oh hm this isn't the first time i've had trouble communicating with you
05:48 < augur> in style, that is
05:49 < augur> what are you talking about
05:49 < augur> im pretty sure ive never seen you outside of this channel
05:49 < kanzure> don't fret- i was only checking the logs
05:49 < augur> when did we ever have trouble communicating before
05:49 < augur> ive never seen you before yesterday!
05:50 < augur> or the day before. whenever it was i came in here for the first time
05:50 < kanzure> 17:50 < kanzure> augur: what projects are you interested in?
05:50 < kanzure> 17:59 < bdesk> augur: scrapers for pyscholar
05:50 < kanzure> 18:00 < augur> oh hey sorry
05:50 < kanzure> 18:00 < augur> anything really. i love this eh
05:50 < kanzure> 18:00 < augur> north paw, thats it
05:50 < kanzure> 18:00 < augur> adorable thing, it is
05:50 < kanzure> 18:01 < kanzure> bdesk: i am confused. :/ what just happened?
05:50 < kanzure> 18:02 < bdesk> kanzure: wta first google hit is womens tennis association.  and they don't allow vuvuzelas at tennis matches.
05:50 < kanzure> 18:02 < kanzure> bdesk: http://transhumanism.org/ is WTA
05:50 < kanzure> 18:02 < augur> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZBZBZZZBZZZZZZZZZZBZZZZZZZZZ
05:50 < kanzure> 18:02 < augur> UNGH
05:50 < kanzure> 18:02  * augur hits ball
05:50 < kanzure> total failure in communication :(
05:50 < augur> where?
05:51 < augur> there was no intent to communicate with the stuff i said at 18:02
05:51 < kanzure> the whole "i am confused what just happened thing" was commenting about how your messages made no sense
05:51 < kanzure> wtf? then why were you..
05:51 < augur> ah, well, i thought you were talking to bdesk
05:51 < kanzure> well, actually, i was primarily talking about pre-18:02
05:51 < augur> right
05:51 < kanzure> but 18:02 doesn't make sense either
05:51 < augur> the 18:02 stuff was a joke about tennis and vuvuzelas
05:51 < kanzure> anyway, it's not important
05:52 < augur> do you get bdesk's reference to vuvuzela's at tennis matches?
05:52 < kanzure> yes, but it's irrelevant
05:52 < augur> so?
05:52 < augur> i was making a joke about it
05:52 < augur> lets step back what i said pre-18:02
05:52 < augur> what was confusing about it
05:52 < augur> and why did you ask bdesk what just happened
05:53 < kanzure> how it doesn't seem to answer my question at all
05:53 < augur> you asked what projects i was interested in
05:53 < augur> i gave you an example of one
05:53 < kanzure> what's the example?
05:53 < augur> north paw!
05:53 < kanzure> north paw is a thing?
05:53 < augur> http://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/
05:53 < kanzure> is this it? http://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/
05:53 < kanzure> okay.
05:53 < kanzure> makes more sense now.
05:53 < augur> the failure of communication was at your end
05:53 < kanzure> before it sounded like you were just brunsgenus making another appearance to troll the channel
05:54 < augur> you shouldn't have asked bdesk what was going on
05:54 < augur> you should have asked ME
05:54 < kanzure> maybe :)
05:54 < augur> not maybe
05:54 < augur> you didnt even indicate that you didnt understand what _i_ said
05:54 < augur> if anything, bdesk said something confusing
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05:54 < augur> i mean, what does "scrapers for psycholar" mean?
05:54 < kanzure> no, scrapers-for-pyscholar makes a lot of sense (to me)
05:54 < augur> well not to me
05:55 < augur> but i didnt care, i ignored it
05:55 < kanzure> do you know what a scraper is in the context of scholarly literature?
05:55 < augur> instead of asking some third person what the hell just happened
05:55 < kanzure> you should have
05:55 < kanzure> because there are pyscholar devs in here
05:55 < augur> why would i ask a third person
05:55 < augur> i dont even know what psycolar is
05:55 < augur> nor what a scraper is, no
05:55 < kanzure> and i didn't know what northpaw was
05:55 < kanzure> how is this any different?
05:55 < augur> well you should've asked!
05:55  * kanzure shakes his head
05:55 < kanzure> are you from #math?
05:55 < augur> its different because you apparently /wanted to know/
05:56 < augur> i didnt care what scrapers for psycholar meant. YOU cared what _I_ meant
05:56 < augur> no, i'm not from #math
05:56 < augur> you are
05:56 < augur> i eman, i lurk in #math, but i dont actually talk XD
05:56 < augur> im only in there to harass kasadkad
05:57 < augur> so, with all the confusion put behind us!
05:57 < augur> i return to my original question
05:57 < augur> any good suggestions for northpaw-esque devices
05:58 < kanzure> i don't have anything off the top of my head, but fenn and utopiah will
05:59 < augur> well then i shall ask them
05:59 < augur> or wait for them to ping-reply
06:00 < kanzure> ping-reply is likely, yes
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07:04 < JayDugger1> Good morning, everyone.
07:07 < augur> hello
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07:57 < fenn> augur: all i know of for sale is sensebridge.com
07:57 < augur> well i dont care about for sale
07:57 < augur> im just looking for stuff like northpaw that i could build
08:03 < fenn> oh, hm, well you could download and build everything for northpaw http://sensebridge.net/projects/northpaw/northpaw-downloads/
08:03 < fenn> or you could reinvent the wheel i suppose
08:04 < fenn> kind of annoying they don't actually declare any copyleft license for those files
08:04 < AJollyLife> augur: why not just build the northpaw?
08:04 < AJollyLife> although, a friend of mine is working on making it smaller
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08:05 < augur> i intend to, eventually. but theres more to life than just a northpaw!
08:05 < AJollyLife> so are you looking for similar soldering kits, or what do you want to do?
08:06 < augur> im looking for things in that conceptual sphere. non-bio baby-steps towards augmentation
08:06 < augur> gadgets and widgets and stuff like that
08:06 < fenn> like the back electrode array
08:06 < fenn> for "seeing"
08:07 < augur> yes, ive read about that. quite an interesting project.
08:07 < fenn> "laser fingers"
08:07 < fenn> i'm having a hard time keeping straight what was real and what i dreamed
08:08 < augur> lol
08:09 < fenn> laser fingers is like tactile lidar
08:09 < JayDugger> How does the "tactile" part work?
08:09 < fenn> a pager motor or something
08:09 < fenn> also it's super simple, just the beam and a narrow angle photosensor
08:10 < fenn> augur: sarahemm was working on a tail attachment for balance (she has a malfunctioning cochlea)
08:11 < augur> interesting
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08:37 < augur> hey, eridu
08:38 < eridu> hey augur 
08:38 < augur> howsit goin
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08:48 < eridu> augur: alright
08:48 < augur> awesome
08:48 < augur> so, whats good besides northpaw
08:48 < eridu> in terms of sensory augmentation?
08:49 < augur> yeah
08:49 < eridu> let's ask brian
08:49 < augur> or general augmentation
08:49 < eridu> kanzure: what's good besides northpaw?
08:49 < AJollyLife> carrying a pda cellphone with gps and internet.
08:49 < augur> i already asked kanzure
08:49 < augur> he didnt know what northpaw was
08:49 < AJollyLife> it feels like such a loss when you no longer have it :(
08:49 < augur> and said there was some grand problem communicating when i mentioned it
08:49 < eridu> augur: wow
08:49 < AJollyLife> one of my friends has magnets over her fingernails
08:50 < augur> yeah well
08:50 < eridu> AJollyLife: oh man, I know that - I left my Android at home this morning :*-(
08:50 < augur> i was a bit wowed myself
08:50 < augur> i have an iphone. :P
08:50 < eridu> AJollyLife: do they deteriorate?
08:50 < AJollyLife> eridu: i was in montreal for a few days, felt so lost
08:50 < AJollyLife> eridu: if you put them ontop of your fingernails, they will slowly be pushed out, but i do know someone who placed them in her fingers
08:51 < augur> montreal!
08:51 < augur> for the jazz fest?
08:51 < AJollyLife> http://hypatia.ca/2010/06/magnetic-fingernails/
08:51 < AJollyLife> augur: for REcon - reverse engineering conference
08:51 < augur> ooh ok
08:52 < AJollyLife> really liked the city, its very bike friendly, everyone seems in shape, good food
08:52 < augur> i would just make gloves with magnets in the finger tips
08:52 < eridu> AJollyLife: magnetic fingers seem like the next thing to do after northpaw, but all the implants I've seen gradually deteriorate
08:52 < eridu> augur: would that do anything?
08:52 < eridu> augur: the point of the implants is that they're close enough to your nerves that you can feel electromagnetic fields
08:53 < augur> the magnets dont transmit signals to your nerves except by tugging on your flesh
08:53 < AJollyLife> not sure, leighs done more research on this than i have
08:53 < augur> i mean, it'd do better to glue them them to your finger tips for that reason, but
08:55 < eridu> augur: how could they tug on your flesh from outside?
08:55 < augur> well, thats what the glove thing would be for. they'd just pull on your finger as a whole.
08:55 < augur> ofcourse, im thinking of a sort of spandexy glove, not a big bulky one
08:55 < eridu> :-/
08:55 < eridu> I guess
08:56 < eridu> should implement it and try it out
08:56 < eridu> AJollyLife: that nail mod looks interesting; I'd be worried about it interfering with typing, though
08:56 < augur> why would it interfere with typing
08:56 < AJollyLife> leighs a big computer geek, i dont think its bothered her any
08:56 < augur> keyboards dont depend on magnets
08:56 < AJollyLife> it is fun when it screws up the compass on her droid though
08:57 < augur> im gonna head to school for a bit
08:57 < augur> see ya
08:57 < AJollyLife> later
08:57 < augur> eridu, we should brainstorm some mods we can make
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09:00 < eridu> augur|afk: I'm down
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10:08 < augur> eridu!
10:09 < eridu> augur: ?
10:09 < augur> hey
10:10 < eridu> hey
10:20 < augur> so i was thinking, eridu
10:21 < augur> visual augmentation is obviously expensive, audio-augmentation is possible, I suppose, but probably not capable of offering much of interest
10:21 < augur> scent and smell are basically impossible
10:21 < augur> tactile is really the only sort of augmentation that seems feasible
10:22 < eridu> augur: what do you mean by "visual augmentation" - using sight as a carrier sense?
10:22 < augur> yeah
10:29 < bdesk> there is a magnetic direction belt
10:29 < bdesk> if you don't want to embed metal into your body
10:36 < fenn> "probably not capable of offering much of interest" unless it is, and nobody knows because they haven't tried it
10:36 < fenn> scent/smell not impossible, that's why we have gc/ms "sniffers" at airports
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10:40 < bdesk> but i guess everyone here is cool with embedding metal into their body so this is not a problem
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10:44 < fenn> i'd rather have the belt
10:46 < AJollyLife> i dont think the tsa would be that happy if i started embedding too much metal into my body :)
10:46 < eridu> screw the TSA, you'd be a cyborg
10:46 < AJollyLife> yeah, but unless my newfound cyborg abilities let me fly, it would make travel suboptimal
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10:47 < augur> im not cool with embedding metal in my body unless i can be sure its safe :P
10:50 < uniqanomaly> why to move at all, one could borrow surrogate on the other side of globe :P
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10:51 < SeH_> hi
10:51 < kanzure> hi SeH_ 
10:52 < kanzure> http://factorefarm.org/ http://openfarmtech.org/
10:53 < SeH_> thx ill check those out
11:02 < lepton_> Hey kanzure, you've worked with FreeFem, right?
11:05 < kanzure> hrm.. i'm on the freefem mailing list, i read it occassionally and tried it out once
11:05 < kanzure> i think i got freefem++ to work once
11:06 < kanzure> actually i recall liking it, but not knowing what to do with it :)
11:13 < kanzure> fenn: do you remember that paper where they came up with a scaling law for the number of microphones in a noisy environment to extract conversations with respect to the density of the crowd or the number of people conversing?
11:14 < kanzure> they were doing some sort of extraction of the individual conversations
11:15 < kanzure> you could "evolve" an audio classifier or something by giving the N participants cards with things to say at specific times (but make sure they rehearse)
11:15 < kanzure> and thus some way to train an svm kernel (or something) for the audio extraction/classification as to which sounds belong to which conversations
11:16 < kanzure> i guess the kernel would have to change for different crowds/audiences though
11:16 < kanzure> unless there's some fancy fourier feature extraction technique i'm missing out on :)
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11:24 < bdesk> you could just mix the audio digitally to make mixed audio for testing
11:24 < bdesk> there is a somehwhwat heated discussion on ghmm mailing list about the state of free audio recognition software
11:26 < bdesk> this is from last weekend http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=AANLkTilpn8AtNYbj5wcIzzgTKUImfWYaXqPB76zAF9mi%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=ghmm-list
11:26 < bdesk> also i hate sourceforge's mailing list browser
11:29 < kanzure> i hate most of sourceforge's interface.. i wish they would have a command line client like .. uh? what's the revision control system that's in bed with .. that one site?
11:29 < kanzure> i think it's bzr.. but not freshmeat, it's like lz or lv or something
11:33 < kanzure> is it bitbucket?
11:33 < bdesk> bitbucket and github are both the new sourceforge.
11:33 < bdesk> bitbucket is for mercurial and has an excess of hosted python programs.
11:34 < bdesk> github is for git and has an excess of ruby programs.
11:34 < bdesk> which kind of sucks because i like programming in python but i like using git for version control.
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11:37 < genehacker> they let people with piercings through security I think
11:37 < genehacker> also having metal in your body does not make you a cyborg
11:38 < genehacker> if the metal has actuator, sensing, or control elements it might make you a cyborg though
11:39 < bdesk> what if the metal is just a solid chunk of magnet and acts as a sensor only indirectly by pressing against the inside of your finger when there is a magnetic field?  does this count as sensing?
11:44 < augur> i wouldnt call that being a cyborg either.
11:44 < augur> im not sure i'd call anything a cyborg unless there was some element of either direct interaction between the cybernetics and the person
11:46 < augur> not that its a clearcut thing. im tenuous about calling someone with a pacemaker a cyborg
11:46 < augur> or someone with a prosthetic arm. but if the arm were advanced enough to be usable like a normal arm that'd be different i think
11:47 < bdesk> what about a bug that is radio controlled with implants?
11:47 < bdesk> is that cyborg?
11:47 < augur> no no thats a cybug
11:48 < kanzure> O_o
11:48 < augur> kanzure has no sense of humor.
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11:48 < kanzure> actually i misread that as "no no that's not a cyuborg"
11:48 < kanzure> &cyborg
11:48 < kanzure> *cyborg
11:48 < kanzure> also i fail at typing today. i blame the internet connection.
11:48 < augur> i dont.
11:49 < kanzure> okay?
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11:49 < augur> bdesk: no im not sure how i'd clasify the bug with a radio controlled implant. maybe. it straddles the line i think.
11:49 < bdesk> i think the line is whatever exists today.
11:50 < bdesk> if we already can do it = not cyborg.
11:50 < augur> eh. im not sure.
11:50 < augur> i mean, i wouldnt call someone with a robotic liver a cyborg
11:50 < augur> tho its not possible today
11:51 < bdesk> maybe the other way.  is there anything done today that coutns as cyborg?
11:51 < augur> and i wouldnt consider anyone a cyborg no matter how much electronics they shove into their body if it's not a "part" of them in any substantive way.
11:51 < augur> i mean, if you just have a computer in your body, but it doesnt interface with /you/ its just there, well, cmon. thats not a cyborg
11:52 < augur> bdesk: no, im not sure i'd count anything today as genuinely cyborg
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11:52 < kanzure> how about kevin warwick's two way neurotransceiver for sending and receiving wrist action potentials to and from his wife?
11:53 < kanzure> (granted, the mapping between them two was pretty terrible)
11:53 < fenn> that was cool
11:53 < augur> i wouldnt count that either.
11:53 < fenn> *cyborg references &cyborg
11:53 < kanzure> they even implanted the chips on different nerves apparently.. do'h (although i think it was intentional)
11:53 < augur> for me its more about having cybernetics that you can control, i think. and lots of it.
11:53 < fenn> do nerves have directionality? i.e. is one nerve an input nerve and the other one an output nerve?
11:54 < augur> yes
11:54 < Utopiah> yes
11:54 < Utopiah> because of the physical property of the fiber the propagation of the signal can't go the other way around
11:55 < bdesk> that is what the axon and dendrites are for
11:55 < augur> i think its more that neurons have an asymmetry
11:55 < augur> i dont think neurons themselves have a directionality
11:55 < kanzure> ..
11:55 < kanzure> they have a directionality in a networking sense
11:55 < fenn> kanzure: re cocktail party problem, reminds me of http://www.ros.org/news/2010/03/hark-on-texai.html
11:55 < fenn> i dont remember any particular paper though
11:56 < augur> kanzure: sorry, what i meant was that, modulo axons/dendrites, the transmission medium of the neuron has no directionality
11:56 < augur> its just a membrane of pores
11:57 < kanzure> fenn: is that really a face on the top of that screen? 
11:57 < augur> i dont think the pores necessarily activate only in one direction, but rather that the source of activation in a normal neuron is localized to one part of it, and so the pore activation propagates outward from there
11:57 < bdesk> a neuron might not be incredibly intelligent by itself, but i think it is still more complicated than that.
11:57 < fenn> it's a salad bowl
11:58 < kanzure> james p. hogan just died
11:58 < fenn> a green salad bowl, with eyes and a microphone
11:58 < Utopiah> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbg5E9GCNVE
11:58 < fenn> every time i clap, a scifi author dies. "well stop doin it then ya crazy fuck"
12:00 < augur> Utopiah: there, the directionality of the propagation isnt inherent in the medium.
12:00 < augur> thank you for that :)
12:00 < kanzure> "His many fans include the members of Studio Nue, who eventually created The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. "
12:00 < augur> also, Utopiah, someone said you might know of some devices i could build?
12:00  * Utopiah goes up the log
12:01 < kanzure> "Besides influencing the themes in several anime, the "Inherit the Stars" name itself (in English and in Japanese as Hoshi o Tsugumono) was directly referenced in such space science-fiction anime as Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, Genesis Climber Mospeada, and Geneshaft."
12:01 < kanzure> Utopiah: alternatives to the northpaw for augur
12:01 < augur> well, not alternatives
12:01 < augur> just other augment devices
12:01 < Utopiah> (and regarding the bidirectional it depends on what you emcompass as the "medium")
12:01 < augur> Utopiah: the cell membrane
12:02 < fenn> kanzure: was this from some anime mailing list?
12:02 < kanzure> fenn: actually, open manufacturing :)
12:02 < kanzure> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-07-13/science-fiction-author-james-p-hogan-passes-away
12:02 < Utopiah> well to me if you include the soma in your medium then it's directional
12:02 < fenn> i dont really think 'gundam' when thinking about james hogan
12:02 < kanzure> heh
12:02 < fenn> studio nue also did starship troopers
12:03 < augur> right, probably. im just thinking of the actual transmission medium. the structures that you form the medium into, and the stuff you put inside those, can definitely induce directionality over the whole object
12:03 < kanzure> what's with the weird xanadu/ted nelson/lain crossover thing too? crazy japs
12:03 < ENKI-][> they cited the sattelite thing
12:03 < ENKI-][> bizzare
12:05 < fenn> "So there's an outline of the plot so far, which has gotten a little more convoluted in places than the kind of thing I had in mind at the outset. I haven't really worked out the ending yet, either. But I'd hope there are a few more chapters to go before that becomes too much of a pressing issue."
12:05 < kanzure> augur: if you want some neuroscience reading, http://designfiles.org/papers/neuro/ you're welcome :P
12:05 < augur> i dont need neuroscience reading?
12:05 < kanzure> i also would appreciate any papers that you have been reading and find of interest
12:05 < fenn> from james hogan's autobiography page
12:06 < augur> you dont want to read papers that i read and find interesting.
12:06 < kanzure> augur: i'm trying to figure out why i have trouble communicating with you
12:06 < kanzure> how do you know that is true?
12:06 < kanzure> it boggles the mind.
12:07 < ENKI-][> 'tis an ill wind that boggles no minds... or something
12:07 < augur> ok, kanzure, here you go: http://semanticsarchive.net/Archive/DE2YTM1N/barker-shan-tlg.pdf
12:07 < kanzure> neuroscience?
12:07 < kanzure> oh a grammar paper. okie dokie.
12:07 < augur> no. not neuroscience.
12:07 < fenn> sic him on openwetware
12:07 < augur> not grammar as such either. syntax-semantics interface stuff, i suppose.
12:07 < fenn> or biobricks or whatever it's called these days
12:08 < augur> sic who on that
12:08 < fenn> you on their lack of grammar
12:08 < augur> lol
12:08 < kanzure> fenn: you mean a lack of a biobrick grammar thingy?
12:08 < fenn> ya
12:09 < kanzure> augur: is this you, or a paper you are reviewing, or? what's the context btw?
12:09 < augur> its a paper i've read and find of interest.
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12:10 < kanzure> fenn: so, i was wondering if you (or anyone else in here) would have some suggestions for me
12:10 < kanzure> let's say that i spontaneously become executive director of WTA
12:10 < kanzure> wtf then?
12:10 < kanzure> s/then/next/
12:10 < fenn> isnt WTA defunct?
12:10 < kanzure> no, humanity+ is just a DBA thing
12:10 < kanzure> doing-business-as name
12:11 < augur> if you became executive director of the WTA i'd be frightened for the WTA
12:11 < fenn> um, well, i'd stop hemmorhaging millions of dollars on magazines or whatever the fuck they're spending it on
12:11 < kanzure> right
12:11 < augur> thats a plan
12:11 < bdesk> no i would pay the graphic artist more
12:11 < fenn> i would pay the graphic artists more, pay the writers and convention-attenders less
12:12 < kanzure> i don't think they pay convention attenders
12:12 < kanzure> except maybe ray
12:12 < bdesk> http://www.boingboing.net/images/Aaad-omg-read-hplus.jpg
12:12 < kanzure> who charges $35k/conference-speaking-gig
12:12 < bdesk> the princeton distinguished prof you wanted to invite
12:12 < kanzure> well, they were spending about $100k/year on hplusmagazine.com
12:12 < bdesk> duke*
12:13 < kanzure> so first thing i'd do is manage the blog myself
12:13 < kanzure> and not pay $100k for it :P
12:13 < kanzure> and the media trajectory is relatively well handled IMHO
12:13 < fenn> also i'd start having small contests, like 'first person to make a ___ that doesn't suck'
12:13 < kanzure> there's a growing strategy in mind for making it not suck as much- like sending out people to talk at conferences that are not transhumanism-started/initiated-conferences
12:13 < kanzure> yeah
12:13 < kanzure> so primarily i think that there's room for some thoughts on the technical end of things
12:14 < kanzure> contests sound ok
12:14 < fenn> also, i'd try to define just wtf "transhumanism" is, as regards WTA
12:14 < kanzure> i'd like to maybe get someone hired to just write grants constantly for transhumanism groups to do crazy diybio projects
12:14 < fenn> and get people to ratify the definition
12:14 < kanzure> right.. i'd definitely get rid of the current transhumanism FAQ
12:14 < kanzure> the current FAQ on the wta site was a response to extropy.org and honestly fudges up the issues :/
12:14 < kanzure> in a dishonest way
12:15 < kanzure> someone was suggesting a strategy for interfacing with the cure-*-NOW groups
12:16 < kanzure> i think it was ralph boone on the wta-talk mailing list
12:16 < fenn> sounds unfocusable
12:16 < kanzure> he was suggesting that we push human enhancement concepts to cure-*-NOW groups so that they could employ or focus some funds on enhancements
12:16 < kanzure> saying that "look! tthese enhanced researchers/engineers will be able to get more stuff done!"
12:16 < fenn> uh.. no
12:16 < kanzure> or something along those lines
12:16 < kanzure> however, i don't know how to get that past pencil pushers
12:16 < kanzure> it just doesn't sound like anything you can make an argument about
12:16 < fenn> i think that was basically the argument for LSD
12:16 < kanzure> heh
12:17 < kanzure> well my first problem with that idea is that it would focus people on measuring worker output
12:17 < fenn> and it probably has achieved more increase in scientific research output than any other drug
12:17 < kanzure> which may or may not be directly related to the enhancements that a person has
12:17 < bdesk> this sounds like the opposite of basic science
12:17 < kanzure> "this"=? and why would it sound like basic sicencfe in the first place?
12:17 < kanzure> *science
12:18 < kanzure> (i still blame lag for the typos today)
12:18 < bdesk> this=cure-*-NOW, and there is no reason it would sound like basic science.
12:18 < kanzure> then i don't understand what you just said :)
12:18 < fenn> maybe i'm biased, but i think adding CSS to dillo would enhance productivity more than any curebie group could
12:18 < kanzure> curebie groups! heh heh
12:19 < fenn> autism snafu
12:19 < bdesk> wat is curebie?
12:19 < kanzure> a fond way of talking about a group focused on a cure
12:19 < fenn> someone who desires being cured
12:20 < bdesk> if mortality is a disease then aren't all of the singularity fanboys curebies?
12:20 < kanzure> bdesk: i said 'fond'
12:20 < kanzure> fenn: fond, right?
12:20 < fenn> nobody's logging, except gnusha
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12:21 < Utopiah> ?
12:21 < fenn> and gnsha
12:21 < kanzure> i have no idea what you are talking about
12:23 < fenn> just nsh, the bot
12:24 < fenn> anyway, i wouldnt lump singularity fanboys in with "i'm dying of xxx disease, plz reorganize the world industry towards finding a cure, kthx" people
12:24 < kanzure> is that what the cure-*-NOW groups tend to want? massive reorganization to find a cure for some disease?
12:25 < kanzure> wouldn't it be more productive for them to focus on finding someone who understands and can solve the problem?
12:25 < nsh> industrifloritous cantilever discerns indelible endometaboloids 
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12:33 < kanzure> so, i enjoyed patri's talk at hplus summit 2009
12:33 < kanzure> but i think the only reason he was allowed to speak was because he was on the board of directors
12:34 < kanzure> has there been anything from humanity+ regarding seasteading? i mean, uh..
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12:35 < kanzure> "There is a need for someone who can popularize it by showing applications to multiple fields, and transhumanism can be a cooler way of saying interdisciplinary and working out of your silos, crystals rainbows and unicorns and consciousness and native peoples of the amazon and taking a journey from a vision quest. Not so interesting to me, because it's not the thing that gets grants and funds serious things."
12:36 < bdesk> wat
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12:43 < bkero> Awesome, just had google lunch3z
13:01 < nsh> whose quote, kanzure?
13:02 < kanzure> nsh: mr. anonymous for now
13:03 < bdesk> i have a hard time parsing that quote, could you add some parentheses to the first sentence?
13:04 < kanzure> it was from a transcript i took one time, so it's partly because i couldn't capture everything properly (the person was speaking fast)
13:04 < kanzure> basically this should be an adequate translation:
13:04 < bdesk> he is saying that the word 'transhumanism' is scary to investors because it makes the investors think about crystals and rainbows?
13:04 < kanzure> no that wasn't really the point. one sec
13:05 < bdesk> or he is saying that it is good to call it 'transhumanism' so that they can get the crystal and rainbow people on board?
13:06 < kanzure> "There is a need for someone who can popularize transhumanism by showing applications to multiple fields. Transhumanism can be a cooler way of saying interdisciplinary and working outside of your traditional silos. Crystal rainbows and unicorns, consciousness and taking vision quests in the Amazon with the natives is not really interesting to me- it's not the thing that gets grants and funds serious things."
13:07 < bdesk> o i see
13:07 < kanzure> it helped?
13:07 < bdesk> yes
13:07 < kanzure> yay 
13:10 < bdesk> i thought the unicorn was in the silo
13:12 < kanzure> well if you had a unicorn, wouldn't YOU keep it in a silo?
13:12 < bdesk> to me 'transhumanism can be a cooler way of saying interdisciplinary' sounds too much like 'nanotechnology can be a cooler way of saying chemistry'
13:12 < fenn> i was picturing some bearded unix hacker living with his family in an abandoned atlas missile launch site in utah
13:13 < kanzure> oh you mean RMS
13:13 < bdesk> yes me too, with crystals and unicorns.
13:13 < nsh> kanzure, k
13:13 < fenn> rms is into unicorns i think
13:13 < fenn> er, sorry i meant eric raymond
13:13 < bdesk> he is into gnunicorns
13:13 < kanzure> if rms ever gets sick, i'm totally making him a gnu doll :P
13:14  * fenn mutters something about a cnc stuffed animal maker
13:15 < kanzure> uh doesn't this more fall under textile manufacturing than cnc stuff?
13:15 < kanzure> i guess a sewing machine is somewhat cnc
13:15 < kanzure> also has the same category of horrible human limb accidents too
13:27 < bdesk> it would be cool to make strings that have a propensity to self-fold in certain ways.  then as soon as these 1D objects are spun/extruded, they will auto-fold into useful 2D and 3D artifacts.
13:30 < fenn> and you could do it at the molecular level, from reusable modular molecular components
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13:33 < Utopiah> DNA origami?
13:34 < bdesk> i wonder how well this would work at the macro level.  the forces causing the folding will obviously not be the same as at the nano scale.
13:49 < fenn> since you are still talking about it: http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~saul/PhD/videos/fmit.mov
13:51 < fenn> "The order of the 4 magnetically encoded tile types uniquely specifies the resulting structure provided that the folding proceeds sequentially down the string."
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14:17 < bdesk> fenn: wow that is exactly what i was talking about.  i must have seen this project or something.
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15:11 < kanzure> http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0785 Title: On the Origin of Gravity and the Laws of Newton 
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15:16 < QuantumG> oh this has gotta be bad
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15:30 < QuantumG> oh dear.  Summary of the paper: if I arbitrarily insert constants into formulas for entropy change and information storage capacity, I can derive Newton's laws of motion.
15:32 < augur> QuantumG: its interesting nonetheless that its possible
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15:34 < QuantumG> in a way.. I mean, all the formulas he's using are derived from newton's laws of motion
15:34 < QuantumG> so it's really not surprising that you can use them to derive newton's laws of motion
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16:03 < augur> QuantumG: oh, well then
16:03 < augur> thats not surprising at all!
16:04 < augur> tho its interesting if theres a correlation between laws of motion and maximization of randomness or whatever it is hes going for
16:05 < QuantumG> yeah, the paper is actually interesting
16:05 < QuantumG> just read section 6.1
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16:09 < lepton> kanzure: sorry I asked you about FreeFEM earlier, and then left the computer (CNC interutions :p)
16:10 < lepton> I'm getting into using it for genetic optimization of compliant mechanisms
16:10 < lepton> Specifically 3D printable ones
16:11 < lepton> I also want to be using it for optimizing the internal structural of 3d-printed volumes, amongst other general MechE FEA sort of things
16:11 < bdesk> is that like http://femhub.org/
16:11 < lepton> anyway, getting existing CAD data into FreeFEM is fairly awful / almost impossible. I'm interested in your Python<>STEP file work for this application
16:12 < lepton> I didn't know about that, bdesk!
16:12 < lepton> Thanks for the link
16:12 < bdesk> i only know about it because ondrej certik is awesome
16:16 < QuantumG> why is it that the FBI can apparently track down who made a bomb by tracing parts but they can't track down who planted a credit card skimmer?
16:17 < bdesk> maybe bomb materials are available from fewer origins than credit card skimmers are.
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16:22 < JamesB192> might bombs have more parts and they present a larger chance of limelight for the bureau?
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17:07 < kanzure> deski would like to second the fact that ondrej certik is  awesome :)
17:08 < kanzure> *bdesk
17:12 < bdesk> is there an election for wta leader or do you have to coup?
17:14 < kanzure> election
17:14 < kanzure> i don't know if it's worth my time or not
17:15 < bdesk> you have to make a platform like http://www.debian.org/vote/2010/platforms/zack ?
17:16 < kanzure> just have to write two or three paragraphs
17:16 < kanzure> the only people that i have to convince are the board members.. and they all love me anyway
17:17 < kanzure> todd, natasha, ben, heather, whoeverelse
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17:23 < augur> kanzure, who are you not on irc
17:25 < eridu> augur: kanzure is Brian Bishop of diybio fame
17:26 < augur> thats ..
17:28 < eridu> you don't get email from him?
17:35 < bdesk> it seems that transhumanism would have a natural alliance with advocates for people with disabilities
17:36 < fenn> people with disabilities tend to be grumpy old farts who hate futurists
17:36 < bdesk> o.O
17:37 < Utopiah> bdesk: they are less risk averse, basically having no choice
17:37 < fenn> bdesk: don't worry, two years ago i said the same thing you said
17:38 < bdesk> fenn: what was so disillusioning?  you met a bunch of grumpy old farts with disabilities?
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17:45 < bdesk> what is the ratio of "transhumanism == interdisciplinary science and technology" vs "transhumanism == crystals and unicorns" among wta?
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18:48 < JayDugger> What would you get from WTA board membership?
18:49 < kanzure> no the question is what could i do
18:49 < kanzure> no the question is what could i do(isn't it)
18:49 < kanzure> gah irssi + lag is fail
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18:51 < kanzure> does anyone know what "drive depth" means in the context of offshore drilling? 
18:52 < JayDugger> No, the question is: what could you do better than anyone else as a WTA member.
18:52 < kanzure> presumably "drive depth" and "drill depth" are different terms
18:52 < JayDugger> No, just the obvious: drive depth might mean target depth, or the position of the drive unit in the shaft.
18:52 < JayDugger> drill depth might mean target depth or bit depth.
18:54 < kanzure> i'm trying to figure out why "drive depth" is listed at the top before "rated drill depth" 
18:54 < kanzure> http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/fastfacts/apdform/apd.asp?-9515
18:54 < kanzure> someone made the claim in the news that bp was drilling beyond its federally permitted levels
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18:56 < JayDugger> How would they know?
18:57 < kanzure> i don't know. they were a whistle blower or something
18:57 < kanzure> but i'm not sure if mms.gov is sanctifying 35000 or not on that document
18:57 < JayDugger> That seems a datum only obtainable from the drill head and its' records.
18:57 < JayDugger> "sanctifying 35000 or not on that document?"
18:57 < kanzure> well, bp edrilled to 35,050 and that's not what the issue was about
18:58 < kanzure> some people were saying that it had a permit for 15,000 to 18,0000
18:58 < kanzure> *drilled
18:58 < kanzure> *18,000
18:58 < kanzure> i hate the lags
18:58 < JayDugger> Yeah...I keep thinking "over a hundred nuclear plants spilled nothing yesterday."
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19:02 < JayDugger> Well...one refers to the well, and the other refers to the rig.
19:02 < JayDugger> At a guess...
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19:05 < JayDugger> Drive Depth means the point at the well starts. I suspect it pretty closely matches the sea floor's depth below sea level.
19:05 < kanzure> hmm
19:05 < JayDugger> Drill depth refers to the maximum depth to which the rig can drill.
19:06 < JayDugger> Remember: both guesses.
19:06 < kanzure> i have some permits here where drive depth= 5361 and water depth = 4992 and rated rill depth = 35000
19:06 < kanzure> *drill
19:06 < kanzure> another where drive depth is 5458 and water depth is 5132
19:07 < JayDugger> Occam sez: "incompetence explains more than malfeasance."
19:07 < kanzure> so my guestimate would be that drive depth - water depth = well depth or total well length before hitting a reservoire
19:07 < JayDugger> That seems reasonable.
19:08 < kanzure> i dunno though.. wouldn't have someone brought this up though?
19:08 < kanzure> a factor of 6x is pretty significant
19:08 < kanzure> if the permitted depth was 35000 and they hit 35050 that sounds pretty reasonable to me
19:08 < JayDugger> I agree.
19:08 < kanzure> but permitted at 5500 and actual at 35000... not so much
19:09 < JayDugger> Right. That would make an easy sound bite for the press, and to my knowledge, no one has yelled about that.
19:10 < kanzure> instead they have yelled that the permitted depth was 18000
19:10 < JayDugger> My usual jokes about the low quality of Hyundai products seem tasteless in this context.
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19:12 < kanzure> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/us/04spill.html
19:12 < kanzure> '"The allegation surrounding the permitted depth is factually incorrect," said Andrew Gowers, a BP spokesman. Mr. Gowers said that the rig was permitted to drill to 20,211 feet and that it drilled to 18,360 feet.'
19:12 < kanzure> 'At least one worker who was on the oil rig at the time of the explosion on April 20, and who handled company records for BP, said the rig had been drilling deeper than 22,000 feet, even though the company's federal permit allowed it to go only 18,000 to 20,000 feet deep, the lawyers said.'
19:12 < kanzure> but the federal permit doesn't allow 18000 to 20000...
19:13 < kanzure> or even 22000
19:13 < JayDugger> Without knowing how the MMS handled documents, the provenance of the electronic copy is suspect.
19:13 < kanzure> that's true
19:13 < kanzure> i wrote a scraper and downloaded all of the APD permits filed through MMS
19:14 < kanzure> so let me search for 20211 specifically
19:14 < JayDugger> Yeah, it comes from the MMS, but we don't know whether they counted it as a "master" or an "uncontrolled" copy.
19:14 < kanzure> nada
19:15 < JayDugger> Or even, honestly, whether the MMS even cared about such.
19:15 < kanzure> it was actually pretty neat browsing through the data
19:15 < kanzure> they had to get a permit each time they tried a new spot
19:15 < kanzure> so they were slowly honing in on MC 252 over the past few years
19:15 < JayDugger> The FAA would, but that's DoT instead of DoI.
19:16 < kanzure> here's another thing that's odd about this
19:16 < JayDugger> Yeah...that makes sense. <REGULATORY COST RANT REDACTED>
19:16 < kanzure> maximum drill depth of the rig was cited as 30000: 
19:16 < kanzure> http://www.offshoreinjuries.com/CM/Custom/transocean-deepwater-horizon-oil-rig-explosion.shtml
19:16 < kanzure> http://www.eoearth.org/article/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill
19:17 < JayDugger> Work practices might mean a paper copy had greater authority than the electronic records.
19:17 < kanzure> then it says that on 2009-09-something it reached 35050 
19:17 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon
19:17 < kanzure> http://www.deepwater.com/fw/main/IDeepwater-Horizon-i-Drills-Worlds-Deepest-Oil-and-Gas-Well-419C151.html
19:19 < kanzure> but then the rated drill detph was changed to 35000
19:19 < kanzure> *depth
19:19 < JayDugger> I wonder what Hyundai says about that type of oil rig?
19:24 < JayDugger> Perhaps that might lie within the designed performance, and minor overruns count as an accepted practice.
19:25 < JayDugger> Similar things happen in the FAA standards for simulators.
19:25 < bdesk> there should be a law against drilling through the ocean floor so deep that the oil comes out and poisons the dolphins and pelicans
19:25 < JayDugger> There are, no doubt.
19:26 < JayDugger> The USA has on-line its "Code of Federal Regulations," which you might search for the appropriate laws.
19:34 < kanzure> "The rig is designed to operate in water depths up to 2,500 metres and has a maximum drill depth of about 5.5 miles. It can accommodate a crew of up to 130." 
19:34 < kanzure> that was according to http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/21/deepwater-horizon-oil-rig-fire
19:34 < JayDugger> Time to commute. Good night, all.
19:35 < bdesk> kbye
19:35 < kanzure> 2500 meters = 8202 feet
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19:35 < kanzure> and the 5.5 mi mark is about 30000 feet
19:37 < kanzure> "In September 2009, BP drilled the deepest well ever at its Tiber field in the US Gulf at a depth of more than 35,000ft (farther down than Mount Everest is up). When it exploded, BP's Deepwater Horizon Drilling rig was drilling at just over 18,000ft deep."
19:38 < kanzure> ah okay they were at different properties
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20:11 < kanzure> "The proposed wellbore will not intersect any faults between the seafloor and the depth limit of this investigvation at Horizon 6 or 5,328 bml."
20:11 < kanzure> *investigation
20:13 < genehacker> sigh, hopefully they learns some useful stuff about teleoperation from this
20:18 < QuantumG> http://quantumg.blogspot.com/2010/07/future-mines-of-humanity.html
20:21 < kanzure> huh the number in that sentence changes immediately on the next page
20:22 < QuantumG> I assume that wasn't directed at me
20:27 < kanzure> it was not
20:27 < QuantumG> cool
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21:35 < kanzure> http://reallifesuperheroes.org/tag/superhero/
21:35 < kanzure> an interview with Superhero
21:35 < kanzure> the last question is: "Do you know what TRANSHUMANISM IS? In that case would you consider it as an important part into a superhero's life-style?"
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22:31 < fenn> i think "drive depth" is the depth of the pylons embedded in the sea floor holding the rig down
22:42 < kanzure> my new plan: drain the gulf of mexico
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23:18 < kanzure> http://openhardwaresummit.org/ has been updated
23:22 < kanzure> open source hardware license v0.3 http://www.openhardwaresummit.org/license/
23:22 < kanzure> i'm not sure if this is a copyright license or what..
23:23 < kanzure> http://www.eyebeam.org/projects/opening-hardware
23:23 < kanzure> oh it's a definition, not a license
--- Log closed Wed Jul 14 00:00:17 2010