--- Log opened Mon Jul 19 00:00:17 2010 01:24 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:27 -!- SeH_ [~SeH_2@c-71-61-176-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:39 -!- SeH_ [~SeH_2@c-71-61-176-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:57 -!- Alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279558760.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30 -!- SeH_ [~SeH_2@c-71-61-176-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:41 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:48 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:14 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-71-232-51-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:51 -!- patrickmclaren [~patrickmc@ppp118-209-9-107.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:54 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@cpe-66-68-110-194.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01 < patrickmclaren> good evening 05:03 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@cpe-66-68-110-194.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:17 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:27 -!- patrickmclaren [~patrickmc@ppp118-209-9-107.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: patrickmclaren] 05:40 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@124.72.19.30] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:54 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-76-197.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:42 -!- genehacker [~chatzilla@cpe-66-68-110-194.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01 -!- nima [~nima@adsl-75-45-235-194.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01 -!- nima [~nima@adsl-75-45-241-55.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:01 -!- kyb3R [~kyb3R@84-231-124-120.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:33 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-71-232-51-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 07:48 -!- AJollyLife [~Jolly@unaffiliated/ajollylife] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:58 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@124.72.19.30] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:58 -!- splicer [~patrik@h126n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:58 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:13 -!- mheld [~mheld@216.214.247.202] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:14 -!- Joeconyers [~Joe@nywatertaxi-f1.client.pins.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:25 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:25 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:26 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:41 < kanzure> meeting being broadcasted from BIOFAB http://biofab.org/communitymeeting/agenda 08:42 < bdesk> i hope no one loses a finger 08:43 -!- AJollyLife [~Jolly@unaffiliated/ajollylife] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:46 -!- Phreedom [~quassel@109.254.6.63] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:00 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-78-8-218-174.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:13 -!- lepton [~john@ma20736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:17 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-78-8-218-174.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:24 -!- streety [~Jonathan@93.182.130.47] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:30 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/ 09:30 < kanzure> now with a wiki! 09:30 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ or http://wiki.diyhpl.us/ or http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/ 09:31 < kanzure> git clone http://diyhpl.us/wiki.git but this one might change once i figure out what to call this public-facing symlink to the internal .git repository 09:31 < lepton> Nice! 09:31 < lepton> Good work 09:51 < kanzure> "responsible pathways of clinical translation" haha 09:51 < kanzure> Patients beware: commercialized stem cell treatmets on the web 09:51 < kanzure> pdf: http://download.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/pdf/PIIS1934590910002833.pdf 09:51 < kanzure> they are upset that third world stem cell clinics are not investing billions of dollars in traditional clinical translation (i.e. regulatory approval) 09:52 < kanzure> but on the other hand, they are right that a lot of these clinics are completely full of shit 10:16 -!- lepton [~john@ma20736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28 -!- kyb3R [~kyb3R@80-186-120-40.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:31 < fenn> because i know you all love lego bulldozers: http://lightfield.stanford.edu/aperture.swf?lightfield=data/bulldozer_lf/preview.zip&zoom=1 10:31 < fenn> shift click on the gray box 10:33 < kanzure> so, stem cell clinics are ridiculously profitable 10:33 < kanzure> there's no way they're not.. 10:33 < fenn> more light field stuff (check out the neuron flyarounds at the bottom) http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/lfmicroscope/ 10:33 < kanzure> not only that but in some cases i bet the stem cell clinics are "moderately legit" in that they might actually know what they are doing 10:33 < kanzure> but the majority probably are just scams 10:33 < fenn> why is there "no way" they're not ridiculously profitable? 10:34 < kanzure> because their patients are easily exploitable, they charge $10k+ per treatment, and their operating expenses are like $1k/mo 10:36 < kanzure> in some cases they are quack and snake oil salesmen, but i suspect there might be a few legit treatment regiments and clinics out there 10:39 < kanzure> ok so what happens when there's a diybio person who starts a stem cell clinic in indonesia 10:39 < kanzure> and claims to be treating, uh, parkinson's 10:41 < kanzure> i think it's within the realm of possibilities that there are certain drugs, medicines, devices that are not approved by the FDA or $AUTHORITY_HERE that could work (otherwise the FDA would go out of business) 10:43 < klafka> kanzure, i think those stem cell clinics that arent quacks will probably kill people or do nothing still 95% of the time 10:43 < kanzure> so, a lot of diybio people are interested in "garage biotech" and so on- making money off of diybio and being non-institutional 10:44 < klafka> seems incredibly dangerous 10:44 < klafka> to a certain degree 10:44 < kanzure> so i can also imagine that some of them are going to be lulled into doing these clinics 10:44 < kanzure> especially the ones that want to make money. 10:44 < kanzure> klafka: agreed 10:44 < klafka> i think that is especially dangerous anyitme you're dealing with translational medicine or foodstuffs 10:44 < klafka> that's totally gonna fucking give biotech a bad name 10:45 < kanzure> yes 10:45 < kanzure> but on the other hand, the whole point of diybio is non-institutionalization 10:45 < kanzure> so how do we uh 10:45 < kanzure> uhh 10:46 < klafka> create safeguards to prevent that from happening? 10:46 < klafka> the inherent issue is we have no fucking clue what we're doing 10:46 < kanzure> but what if there is some legitimate but non-institutionalized project? 10:46 < kanzure> see, something isn't adding up 10:47 -!- jennifer_ [~jennifer@c-67-180-253-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:47 < klafka> i mean the problem with biotech is generally speaking we have no fucking clue what we're doing, we have a at best sketchy understanding of single gene changes, and a really shitty understanding of multiple gene interactions and their overall phenotypic effects particularly related to the ecosystem 10:48 < kanzure> ok and for some reason that means we need to submit to $GOVT_AUTHORITY_FIGURE? 10:48 < klafka> the admittedly shady companies have still put billions of dollars into their GMO crops and yet they still fuck up 10:48 < klafka> no, it means the likelihood for some DIYbio person fucking up and having shit rained down upon the whole community is very high 10:49 < klafka> so it should be stringently self policing or stick to tinkertoys 10:49 < klafka> but those two things aren't gonna happen 10:49 < kanzure> "fucking up" in that case comes later 10:49 < kanzure> what comes first is they announce they are doing a stem cell clinic or something 10:50 < kanzure> but i can't help but think that there's a way to do it "right" 10:50 < kanzure> er 10:51 < klafka> probably still the right way would definitely be "not in the us" 10:51 < klafka> because even before they actually do fuck up 10:51 < kanzure> well yeah 10:51 < klafka> the AMA and everyone else would be raining shit down on them 10:51 < kanzure> of course 10:51 < kanzure> i don't know how to describe my disconnect here- i agree that snake oil salesmen and these quack/shady clinics are pretty evil 10:53 -!- streety [~Jonathan@93.182.130.47] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:53 < klafka> actually i guess stem cell clinics are the least of my worries 10:53 < klafka> i'm still more worried about people accidentally creating some ridiculous ecosystem fucker uper 10:53 < klafka> *upper 10:53 < klafka> stem cells, just `1 person dies typically 11:04 < kanzure> maybe lying is the only way to do this 11:04 < kanzure> i.e. "we oppose all non-institutionalized clinics" (wtf?) 11:06 < kanzure> fenn: you still here? 11:12 -!- jennifer2 [~jennifer@c-67-180-253-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- Joeconyers [~Joe@nywatertaxi-f1.client.pins.net] has quit [] 11:40 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:08 -!- streety [~Jonathan@93.182.130.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:10 < ybit2> kanzure: using ikiwiki aye? :) 12:11 < ybit2> ping 12:11 < ybit2> ping 12:12 < kanzure> yes it's ikiwiki 12:12 < kanzure> (also piny) 12:15 -!- Alystair [Alystair@bas1-toronto10-1279558760.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:15 -!- pmetzger [~pmetzger@69.86.203.77] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:15 -!- ybit2 [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15 < pmetzger> moo 12:16 < kanzure> guh 12:17 -!- heath [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:18 < ybit> grr 12:18 < ybit> @ quassel for not showing the messages sent :\ 12:18 < ybit> or any messages atm 12:19 -!- heath is now known as ybit2 12:19 < kanzure> ybit: it's ikiwiki+piny 12:20 < ybit> i saw, luckily the faithful adl connection + irssi is working still :) 12:22 < ybit> hrm, no louck finding anything on piny so far... 12:23 < pmetzger> Saw Jolly at HOPE this last weekend. That was an odd intersection of worlds. 12:23 < jrayhawk> kanzure: are there any other issues you wanted sorted out? 12:23 < pmetzger> I wonder if it would be cool to start doing DIY talks at hacker cons. They're a receptive audience. 12:23 < kanzure> jrayhawk: not at the moment :) thank you. 12:24 < kanzure> pmetzger: there were a few at HOPE this year if you looked 12:24 < pmetzger> not really. 12:24 < kanzure> pmetzger: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/b10c670ca3c20843 12:24 < pmetzger> I mean, I looked at those talks and, well... 12:25 < pmetzger> none of them were really that relevant. 12:25 < ybit> can you explain that slightly further pmetzger? 12:25 < pmetzger> well, looking at the list that kanzure put up, most are totally irrelevant. 12:26 < ybit> kanzure: linkage for piny please? 12:26 < pmetzger> like the talk on how to get your Ham license 12:26 < pmetzger> and why being a Ham is fun. 12:26 < kanzure> jrayhawk: see ybit's question :P 12:26 < pmetzger> that has nothing to do with it.nor the guys doing things like taxonomy of cooked foods. 12:26 < kanzure> there's a strong undercurrent of molecular gastronomy and food hacking in diybio, pmetzger 12:27 < pmetzger> that wasn't what that talk was. 12:27 < pmetzger> the sensor and pharma talks were mildly on topic, those were the only ones. 12:27 < pmetzger> but anyway, what do I know. 12:28 < pmetzger> there were people with things like 3D printers and such in the hardware hacking area. 12:28 < pmetzger> it would have been cool if people were doing things like low cost PCR demos etc. 12:29 < pmetzger> the same way people get hands on intros to soldering or what have you. 12:29 < pmetzger> that's a lot of what I'm talking about. 12:30 < kanzure> huh they give soldering lessons at these conferences? 12:35 < fenn> i never realized diff was something with a tweakable parameter http://neil.fraser.name/software/diff_match_patch/svn/trunk/demos/demo_diff.html 12:37 < pmetzger> Of course they give soldering lessons. 12:37 < pmetzger> You haven't been to a hacker con? 12:37 < pmetzger> People don't just give soldering lessons, they actively build stuff and use it while there. 12:37 < Utopiah> (HOPE jsut finished btw) 12:38 < pmetzger> The badges are always active circuits. This years had empty pads for interface chips to let you reprogram the thing to do a variety of forms of evil. 12:39 < pmetzger> (The badges sent out your position information in the default config, but many people changed that. :) 12:39 < kanzure> wifi localization? 12:39 < pmetzger> no. 12:39 < pmetzger> they spoke a different protocol. 12:40 < pmetzger> there were sensor network stations all around that triangulated based on signal strength. 12:40 < pmetzger> you couldn't run a wifi device for three days off of a coin cell. 12:40 < pmetzger> Travis Goodspeed designed them this year. 12:40 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:40 < ybit> best way to learn how to solder properly: http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+(MIL-S)/download.php?spec=MIL_S_45743E.3367.PDF 12:40 < pmetzger> MSP430 processor etc. 12:41 < ybit> i.e. follow along and read the military spec 12:41 < pmetzger> the best way to learn how to solder is to solder. :) 12:41 < pmetzger> just like the best way to learn how to cook is to cook etc. 12:41 < ybit> right :) but there are nice details from the spec. 12:41 < Utopiah> RFID iirc 12:41 < pmetzger> RFID doesn't mean just one thing. 12:42 < pmetzger> There were radio chips from NORDIC with a 1mbps theoretical rate in the things, which is more than one usually means by RFID. 12:42 < pmetzger> though people were mostly calling them RFID. 12:42 < pmetzger> actually, I think the badge units could do 2mbps. 12:44 < pmetzger> travis gave a great 1 hour talk saturday night at 10pm about them. 12:44 < pmetzger> too bad the software side never worked quite right. 12:44 < bdesk> the triangulation? 12:44 < pmetzger> no, nothing about the stuff worked. like, the web site was down for long stretches etc. 12:45 < pmetzger> I won't comment much beyond saying they put too much effort into things like letting you change your icon and not enough into doing the basic work far enough in advance. 12:46 < pmetzger> Travis was working on the badge itself four or six months in advance. the software people should have been doing the same. 12:47 < kanzure> http://extreme.ajatukseni.net/2010/07/19/hackerspaces-members-and-involvement-survey-study/ 12:48 < nsh> hmmm 12:48 < nsh> RFID + SDHC card on a badge is an interesting idea 12:49 < nsh> throw in some public key infrastructure 12:49 < nsh> i remember something from a few years back, some idea about "pollen" and people carry information to and fro 12:50 < nsh> sneakernet++ 12:51 < pmetzger> The badges were not really intended by Travis to be position locators. They're really general purpose devices. 12:51 < pmetzger> For example, you can load in some software and use them as JTAG debuggers 12:51 < pmetzger> though they did their job as radios quite well. 12:52 < kanzure> bdesk: infoswell 12:53 < pmetzger> travis also has software to use them to interfere with turning point clicker nets. 12:54 < pmetzger> the project including all the software, gerber files for the devices, etc., is on source forge 12:55 < pmetzger> anyway, these are the sorts of venues where people like getting their hands dirty. 12:56 < pmetzger> a biohacking village where people were doing actual work with real equipment, teaching each other, and building more, would be a welcome addition at HOPE, shmoocon, etc. 12:56 < kanzure> unfortunately a lot of the diybio people don't actually know hardware that well 12:57 < kanzure> i think it would be great in general if they would be building hardware 12:57 < pmetzger> if you're building a PCR you presumably know how to build a PCR, right? :) 12:57 < kanzure> "at a conference" is a nice extra 12:57 < kanzure> "building a PCR" whattt it's a chemical reaction 12:57 < pmetzger> the device has to heat and cool the solution etc. 12:57 < pmetzger> you know more about that than I do I presume. 12:59 < jrayhawk> ybit: piny is a management layer on top of Ikiwiki 12:59 < pmetzger> I was under the impression DIY thermocyclers etc. were something people were building and playing with. 12:59 < jrayhawk> http://piny.be/piny-code/architecture/needed_user_facing_infrastructure/ is where features are at. 13:00 < jrayhawk> You can feel free to either play with the piny.be service or take a look at the code by various means in the "Repo Info" link 13:01 < kanzure> pmetzger: not really.. there's a few shady attempts at it but the majority are just marketing stunts 13:02 < pmetzger> wasn't rob carlson involved in one of them? 13:02 < kanzure> yes but he was just scamming them for $100k 13:02 < kanzure> lava-amp 13:02 < pmetzger> well, then a non-scam version would be cool. 13:02 < kanzure> agreed! 13:03 < pmetzger> presumably an arduino, a thermal sensor and a heating element along with a few other parts would do it. 13:03 < pmetzger> not my particular interest, but it is an example of the sort of thing one can show off for people and teach them about easily. 13:04 < kanzure> http://openpcr.org/ claims to be doing that 13:04 < kanzure> er, i don't remember what chip they are using 13:04 < kanzure> but again it's just a marketing stunt 13:06 < pmetzger> a stunt to help market what? 13:06 < kanzure> their product 13:07 < kanzure> if you want to buy a thermocycler, just go buy one :/ 13:08 < kanzure> i'd be happy to pay for a thermocycler kit that is actually open source, but that's not what's happening really 13:08 < kanzure> so anyway 13:09 < kanzure> ^although arguably their software is since it's up on github (though unlicensed (big deal, that's fixable)), it's just their schematics that are sketchy (ha ha get it) 13:09 < cluckj> lol 13:15 < kanzure> i've been noticing a really scary trend lately 13:15 < kanzure> different people have been telling me that software development is very low cost / almost completely free 13:15 < kanzure> i don't know where this idea is originating from 13:21 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:23 < jrayhawk> It's cheaper than it used to be, certainly. 13:23 < kanzure> maybe 13:23 < kanzure> yes 13:28 < pmetzger> Software development is not zero cost, but the marginal cost of moving around open source software is low. 13:28 < pmetzger> and the cost of improving open source software is lower than that of closed source in most cases. 13:29 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:29 < kanzure> development might seem to be "free" when contributors are subsidizing their development time 13:29 < Utopiah> even then it's skilled labor... 13:30 < pmetzger> of course. 13:30 < pmetzger> software requires enormous skill to write well. 13:30 < pmetzger> hardware takes enormous skill to build well. 13:31 < Utopiah> IMHO there is a huge bias in computer and its software because it reached homes so people think it's "simple" but that's just not true 13:31 < pmetzger> kanzure: so, assuming that thermocyclers are uninteresting, what technology would you like more people to master? what kind of technology would it please you to see people playing with? 13:31 < kanzure> er are you asking me to make that assumption or are you saying that it is an assumption that you think i have told you that i have 13:31 < kanzure> because i think that building thermocyclers is definitely a good activity 13:32 < pmetzger> okay, cool. so you think it would be cool to see people at hacker cons playing with such things? it seems cool to me... 13:32 < bdesk> we need kevin costner to build the thermocyclers 13:33 < kanzure> pmetzger: sure.. but honestly i think it would be better if that started happening regardless of conferences 13:33 < pmetzger> not my point. I was discussing possible interesting things to bring to hacker cons. 13:34 < pmetzger> because they're fertile ground for such activities. 13:35 < kanzure> oh 13:35 < kanzure> possibly interesting things to bring to hacker cons 13:35 < kanzure> microfluidic chips are pretty fun to look at and watch 13:37 < kanzure> culture streaking 13:38 < pmetzger> electrophoresis? 13:39 < pmetzger> (that strikes me as a thing people could learn very easily.) 13:39 < kanzure> might take too long? 13:39 < klafka> it takes like less than 20 minutes 13:39 < kanzure> you mean making a gel? 13:39 < kanzure> or running it 13:39 < klafka> well the whole process is like maybe 1-2 hrs 13:39 < kanzure> i think you can increase the speed at which it occurs 13:39 < kanzure> by increasing the voltage? 13:39 < cluckj> yes 13:40 < cluckj> depends on what you're using and what kind of results you want 13:42 < klafka> yeah 13:42 < kanzure> does anyone want http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ accounts 13:53 < jrayhawk> 'addaccess' should work with existing gnusha shell users; they just won't be locked down. 13:54 < jrayhawk> jus t fyi 13:57 < kanzure> i have a ticket to go see kurzweil's movie opening on the 21st 13:57 < kanzure> either it's opening or it's just a viewing, dunno 13:57 < fenn> this seems pretty straightforward, and when combined with light field photography could yield something resembling a 3D television http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_photography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenoptic_camera 13:57 < kanzure> anyway, i'm not going to be in the bay area on the 21st so who wants my ticket 13:57 < kanzure> fenn: you? 13:57 < kanzure> i hear the movie isn't that great but who knows 13:58 < fenn> uh, uh.. what time is it? 13:58 < fenn> and where? 13:58 < kanzure> 6:30pm 13:58 < kanzure> where.. uh.. 13:58 < bdesk> wat is the movie 13:58 < fenn> and what are the transdimensional infinite improbability parameters? 13:58 < bdesk> http://www.transcendentman.com/ ? 13:58 < kanzure> bdesk: yep 13:59 < kanzure> Bluelight Cinemas 21275 Cinemas, Stevens Creek Blvd., Cupertino, CA 95014 13:59 < kanzure> uh where is cupertino anyway 13:59 < fenn> hm maybe bkero is interested 14:00 < kanzure> oh it's near menlo park 14:00 < fenn> i've been invited to a birthday potluck.. decisions decisions 14:00 < kanzure> "The singularity is near: a true story about the future" 14:00 < kanzure> so yeah, transcendent man 14:00 < kanzure> in which you get to spend a few hours watching ray cry about his daddy problems 14:01 < kanzure> KIDDING 14:01 < kanzure> sorta 14:01 < fenn> gah, ray has extreme pixellation problems 14:02 < bkero> 'eh? 14:02 < bkero> fenn: hm?\ 14:02 < fenn> bkero: want to see ray kurzweil's movie on the 21st in cupertino at 6:30pm? 14:03 < bkero> Wednesday at 6:30? 14:03 < bkero> Maybe, if I can get a ride out to Cupertino. 14:03 < fenn> kanzure there is only one ticket? 14:03 < kanzure> i only reserved one :/ 14:03 < kanzure> but who knows.. maybe there's extra seats available 14:04 < kanzure> i could ping back sarah reed (kurzweilai.com person who i was emailing for this) and tell her i'm just a fat ass and need two chairs 14:04 < bkero> I'll go if I can get out there somehow and get a seat 14:04 < kanzure> "transhumanism: increasing fat deposits worldwide" hah! 14:05 < fenn> it's true 14:05 < kanzure> it's an improvement in how much you can eat, right? 14:05 < fenn> see tesla's seminal "on the problem of increasing human energy" 14:07 < kanzure> show up and tell them you're bryan bishop, and see if they just let you in after looking over their clipboard 14:07 < kanzure> if not, tell them you're ray's long lost son 14:07 < kanzure> (.. from the future?) 14:08 < cluckj> carbon sequestering on your ass? 14:09 < fenn> cluckj: tesla states that by the equation KE = mv^2/2 we can increase human momentum by increasing the total mass of the population 14:09 < cluckj> hehehe 14:13 < fenn> seems like they should make these gigantic microlens arrays using some kind of etching method, instead of diamond machining 14:14 < fenn> "Integral imaging has not yet achieved significant commercial success, in part because diamond tooling molds for large plastic arrays is difficult, and in most cases prohibitively expensive. Inexpensive lens array sheets have been produced using extrusion embossing (in the same manner as lenticular sheets are made), using anilox patterned rolls, but the resulting lens array pattern, while adequate for moiré effects, is not suitable for integral 14:14 < kanzure> "lens array sheets" what would that look like 14:14 < kanzure> cutoff at "is not suitable for integral" 14:15 < fenn> not suitable for integral imagery due to its lack of predictable geometry. 14:15 < fenn> it looks sort of like a fly's eye 14:15 < kanzure> except in a sheet? is it like a sheet of acrylic or what 14:15 < kanzure> er, i mean, a compliant sheet 14:15 < fenn> yeah, PETE usually 14:15 < fenn> like a fresnel lens 14:16 < fenn> you'd need a crapload of pixels for a decent resolution 4D light field though 14:17 < fenn> like a solid wall of DLP chips 14:18 < fenn> maybe people wouldn't notice if it's just a cellphone sized device 14:30 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:35 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@c-71-233-149-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:38 < fenn> i'm getting the feeling that i've been lied to about how a fly eye really works 14:41 < kanzure> pmetzger: another good project to demo at cons would be a spectrophotograph 14:42 < fenn> "In the parabolic superposition compound eye type, seen in arthropods such as mayflies, the parabolic surfaces of the inside of each facet focus light from a reflector to a sensor array" 14:42 < kanzure> what's the conventional explanation of compound eyes? 14:42 < fenn> all this cool stuff just for something that lives one day 14:42 < kanzure> haha DNA synthesis via fly eyes :D 14:42 < kanzure> genehacker! where's genehacker when you need him 14:42 < fenn> the elementary school explanation is that each lens focuses on a single point, i.e. each lens is one pixel 14:42 < kanzure> he'd eat that up :/ 14:43 < kanzure> wow what? 14:43 < kanzure> i haven't ever heard them say that 14:43 < kanzure> haven't you seen the "seeing a million things at once" diagrams and visual explanations or whatever? 14:43 < fenn> yeah 14:43 < fenn> they have a thousand lenses or so 14:45 < fenn> damn i need to read a whole book about this 14:47 < fenn> dammit 14:47 < fenn> jurvetson appears yet again 14:48 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hawk_eye.jpg from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_eye#Visual_acuity 14:50 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@c-71-233-149-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas] 15:00 -!- elmom [~elmom@hoasnet-fe29dd00-137.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:07 < kanzure> biofab webcast https://admin.na5.acrobat.com/_a950781581/biofab2010/?launcher=false 15:07 < kanzure> ew acrobat 15:09 < bkero> :q/win 27 15:09 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-72-231-169-163.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:10 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-72-231-169-163.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:12 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:32 -!- mheld [~mheld@216.214.247.202] has quit [Quit: mheld] 15:32 -!- mheld [~mheld@216.214.247.202] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:36 -!- mheld [~mheld@216.214.247.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:54 -!- ybit2 [~quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:13 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-72-231-169-163.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-72-231-169-163.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:19 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-72-231-169-163.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-72-231-169-163.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:21 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:34 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 17:03 -!- Joeconyers [~Joe@ool-182fafef.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:09 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:11 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:21 -!- elmom [~elmom@hoasnet-fe29dd00-137.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:31 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:32 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:41 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:51 -!- nima [~nima@adsl-75-45-241-55.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57 -!- nima [~nima@adsl-75-45-241-55.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:59 -!- augur_ [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:59 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:10 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:16 -!- pmetzger [~pmetzger@69.86.203.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@124.72.19.30] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:17 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:18 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:19 -!- eridu [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25 -!- BoyTito [~midtown@c-76-103-139-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:31 < kanzure> hi BoyTito 18:37 -!- augur_ is now known as augur 18:49 < BoyTito> hey kanzure 18:50 < BoyTito> sorry about that, I forgot I got onto IRC TT___TT 18:50 < kanzure> are you tito or john? 18:51 < BoyTito> I'm actually eric 18:51 < kanzure> okie dokie 18:52 < kanzure> what's up? :) 18:52 < BoyTito> well, I was watchin' some talks from defcon last year, and got to one that brought up biohacking a little 18:53 < BoyTito> and the speaker referenced your site, so I figured I'd check it out 18:53 < BoyTito> then I saw there was an irc channel that people probably frequented 18:53 < kanzure> richard thieme? 18:53 < BoyTito> and was pretty much wondering how I get my foot in the door 18:53 < BoyTito> yessir 18:54 < kanzure> cool, so what are you interested in doing 18:54 < kanzure> i mean, in general 18:54 < BoyTito> yea yea 18:54 < BoyTito> a couple of things 18:55 < BoyTito> I would like to figure out how these building blocks work, but I'm more of a hands on kind of guy 18:55 < kanzure> btw can you link me to the richard thieme talk? i never saw it.. but remember talking with him before the conference 18:55 < BoyTito> but I don't wanna go out buying stuff left and right to figure out that I can't actually do anything with it 18:55 < BoyTito> yeah 18:55 < kanzure> the building blocks (biobricks) don't actually work 18:55 < kanzure> but that's not where the fun is anyway 18:56 < BoyTito> okay 18:56 < BoyTito> http://defcon.org/html/links/dc-archives/dc-17-archive.html 18:56 < BoyTito> the one titled: Hacking, Biohacking, and the Future of Humanity 18:56 < kanzure> thank you 18:56 < kanzure> yes 18:56 < BoyTito> np 18:57 < BoyTito> so I've been programming for a while 18:57 < kanzure> anything in particular? 18:57 < BoyTito> just fooling around 18:58 < BoyTito> c++ in school 18:58 < BoyTito> then i burnt myself out 18:58 < BoyTito> and a couple of months ago I started picking up haskell 18:58 < BoyTito> and between those two I've dabbled in python and such 18:58 < BoyTito> never got into any projects though 18:58 < kanzure> so there's a few things going on in the community that you might be interested in 18:59 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-76-197.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:59 < BoyTito> yea? 18:59 < kanzure> are you a linux user? 18:59 < BoyTito> yessir 18:59 < BoyTito> not very safe, but learnin' and all that 18:59 < BoyTito> :p 18:59 < kanzure> ? 18:59 < kanzure> er 18:59 < kanzure> my thumb sometimes taps the mousepad and that presses enter :( 18:59 < kanzure> do you use dpkg/apt-get or anything like that? 19:00 < BoyTito> yea 19:00 < kanzure> right, so, i want that for biotech equipment 19:00 < kanzure> sudo make me a sandwich et al... uh, except for labware 19:00 < BoyTito> haha 19:00 < JayDugger> sudo make me a phmeter 19:00 < BoyTito> that'd be cool 19:00 < kanzure> so there's been some progress on it.. doing a hardware package format, for instance 19:00 < BoyTito> whats this equipment generally made out of? 19:00 < kanzure> build instructions, blah blah blah 19:01 < kanzure> plastic, metal, electronics, lots of sweat-and-blood 19:01 < kanzure> elbow grease 19:01 < BoyTito> okay, so you couldn't use something like the reprap then 19:01 < kanzure> sure you could 19:01 < BoyTito> til it gets to final stage 19:01 < kanzure> no, reprap has been used to make some pieces of lab equipment 19:01 < BoyTito> yeah? 19:01 < kanzure> like cathal's dremelfuge 19:01 < kanzure> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1483 19:02 < kanzure> huh cathal did it in openscad? i don't remember that 19:02 < BoyTito> thats cool 19:03 < kanzure> so anyway 19:03 < kanzure> a big problem in hardware is that you spend a lot of effort and eventually something might work 19:03 < kanzure> but then nobody does documentation 19:03 < kanzure> or if they do schematics or something, they suck 19:03 < BoyTito> I can see that 19:03 < kanzure> so there's this software-hardware intersection that needs some tender loving 19:03 < kanzure> :P 19:03 < kanzure> dunno if you've ever tried to build a makerbot or cupcakecnc (a form of a reprap) 19:04 < BoyTito> naw 19:04 < BoyTito> I've looked into it 19:04 < BoyTito> but I'ma kinda strapped for cash and I would kinda like it to print out circuit boards and such for me 19:05 < kanzure> http://adl.serveftp.org/dokuwiki/skdb is kinda out of date but describes some previous work on this front 19:05 < BoyTito> so I was hoping there'd be some leaps and bounds in the versions, like full self-replication by a couple months ago >.< 19:05 < kanzure> there are also some talks we gave that are up on youtube 19:06 < BoyTito> and thats just the kinda apt-get version for hardware 19:06 < kanzure> downloading hardware over the web part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg 19:06 < kanzure> part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S9z6H_EFqQ 19:06 < kanzure> part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edl6uFn3_g4 19:07 < BoyTito> sweet, I'm on it ^_^ 19:07 < kanzure> and then recently the talk on diy transhuman tech and biohacking for hplus summit 2010 (some say the audio sucks?) 19:07 < kanzure> part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ex52LYDe8 19:07 < kanzure> part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUVd0skbc8 19:07 < BoyTito> word 19:08 < kanzure> so anyway.. recently i've been spending my time doing some python for a somewhat usable STEP library 19:09 < kanzure> primarily so that there's a plain text way of specify solid geometry models for these hardware packages to send around 19:09 < kanzure> but i haven't released it yet because it's embarrassing / not working yet :P 19:09 < BoyTito> lol 19:10 < BoyTito> you mean like, requesting by name? 19:10 < kanzure> huh? 19:10 < BoyTito> or a model is described in plain text 19:10 < kanzure> right now there's a limited number of ways to generate CAD files 19:10 < kanzure> there's only point-and-click open source tools for it :/ 19:10 < kanzure> and they are not the greatest in the world 19:10 < kanzure> the one i keep pointing people to (because it's by far the most usable (and that's not saying much)) is http://heekscad.org/ 19:11 < kanzure> there's lots of proprietary tools though that you can pirate, of course 19:12 < BoyTito> got it, so you're working on something like the 3d modelers where you'd have to type out the objects then it would render it from code? but for hardware packages 19:14 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:14 < kanzure> uh, uh 19:15 < kanzure> a better way to explain this is "infrastructure for sharing hardware designs between biohackers" 19:15 < kanzure> and CAD models are just a missing piece of that puzzle 19:15 < BoyTito> okay 19:15 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:18 < kanzure> btw this might be interesting if you want a self-replicator: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/e4c375acce772250 19:25 < BoyTito> good looks, thats some cool stuff 19:31 < BoyTito> but yeah, programming a while ago I got the idea that everything that lifes based on is just objects and relationships 19:31 < BoyTito> which is pretty much what code is, it would just be different syntax 19:33 < BoyTito> and if I could work with the building blocks of organisms like I could code 19:33 < BoyTito> whether its dna, or straight molecules or what not, I'm really not learned in that matter 19:34 < BoyTito> I figured it'd be quite interesting to be able to play around and see direct physical results 19:35 < BoyTito> cause thats why I had burned out of programming, the results of my projects didn't merit all the work I put in 19:35 < BoyTito> I never actually made something that affected anything outside of my computer 19:37 < BoyTito> I'm off though, it was good to talk w/ you man 19:37 < BoyTito> cya round 19:38 < kanzure> d 19:38 < kanzure> feel free to idle aroun 19:38 < kanzure> feel free to idle around 19:47 < JayDugger> kanzure: Once you've a civilization seed ready to go, you could follow Oglethorpe University's example and bury it in a time capsule. 19:47 < JayDugger> http://www.oglethorpe.edu/about_us/crypt_of_civilization/history_of_the_crypt.asp 19:47 < JayDugger> No doubt you could get the Long Now types to fund a Deep Time capsule, eh? 19:48 < JayDugger> (Found via, of all things, the playtest blog for an as-yet-unpublished RPG.) 19:48 < JayDugger> Good night, evryone. 19:49 < JayDugger> everyone, even. 19:49 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-76-197.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:20 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:20 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:28 -!- Noahj1 [~noah@c-24-62-35-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:36 -!- Joeconyers [~Joe@ool-182fafef.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:39 -!- Joeconyers [~Joe@ool-182fafef.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:15 -!- Joeconyers [~Joe@ool-182fafef.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:36 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56 < fenn> more proof that the universe is imploding: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/4112726327/in/photostream/ 21:57 < fenn> check out the name on the mailing address 21:58 < fenn> and the weird thing is i knew what it would say before zooming in 22:00 -!- niftyzero1 [~miron@dsl081-070-214.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:00 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:02 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:02 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:12 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:13 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28 < kanzure> i wonder if this report was specifically made to get on wikileaks itself http://wikileaks.org/wiki/U.S._Intelligence_planned_to_destroy_WikiLeaks,_18_Mar_2008 22:29 -!- splicer [~patrik@h126n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:42 < fenn> but honey, they go so well together: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/4100934305/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/4101692880/in/photostream/ 22:45 -!- streety [~Jonathan@93.182.130.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:46 < kanzure> hmph why don't /i/ have a "mobile data center" disguised as a commando tank? :( 22:47 < kanzure> what's the pop out tent for 22:49 < Alystair> OHOHO 22:49 < Alystair> those are your shots fenn? 22:49 < kanzure> fenn: where is todd's weaponary poser shot thing 22:53 < kanzure> was this it? http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/3016657700/ 22:54 < fenn> http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/3431322716/ 22:54 < kanzure> "Hi Mom. I'm giving up my sinful Western Ways and am becoming a mujadeen." 22:56 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:56 < fenn> so i've spent like the last 10 minutes trying to figure this out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oddwick/4069854193/ 22:57 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:01 < fenn> oh boy, we are testing spud guns inside 23:01 * fenn hides under his blanket 23:01 < fenn> the tarp will protect me 23:03 < Alystair> :( 23:12 < fenn> i'm still here, don't worry 23:14 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-76-119-90-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:30 -!- streety [~Jonathan@91.143.127.68] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:33 -!- streety1 [~Jonathan@93.182.130.54] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:35 -!- streety [~Jonathan@91.143.127.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:36 -!- augur [~augur@c-69-143-196-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:43 < fenn> wow, nothing like statistics to back up your stereotypes http://mytype.com/blog/?p=109 23:43 < fenn> "to ipad or not to ipad" 23:44 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:45 -!- nsh [~nsh@87.112.74.74.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:54 < Alystair> to kindle or not to kindle 23:58 < fenn> ipython tip of the month: foo? shows a nice help summary of foo --- Log closed Tue Jul 20 00:00:12 2010