--- Log opened Thu Jul 22 00:00:17 2010
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00:04 < QuantumG> I have an economics question, if someone wants to talk for a bit..
00:05 < QuantumG> say I can produce a commodity without labor.. don't think about how.. let's just say I can, by definition.
00:06 < QuantumG> so, the means of production and the cost of resources is the only thing that limits how cheaply I can make the commodity, and thus my profit margins.
00:06 < QuantumG> being a good capitalist I set the price just below my competitors and capture some part of the market
00:06 < QuantumG> in order to capture more of the market I need to increase production.
00:07 < QuantumG> over time I out compete everyone and end up with 100% of the market.. perhaps in doing so I do some vertical integration and take over some other markets too.
00:08 < QuantumG> here's my question:  there's some force which will no doubt require me to expand into another market in order to maintain my hold over my current markets.. what is that force?
00:09 < QuantumG> I can think of only one at the moment: the requirement to produce *increasing* returns to shareholders due to inflation.
00:10 < QuantumG> if demand is fixed and there's no more market to capture, and your means of production are completely amortized and you've done all the vertical integration you possibly can, then how do you increase your profit to keep up with inflation?  You can't so you need to capture another market and start all over again.
00:11 < klafka> seems like it
00:12 < QuantumG> Of course, the problem with this is that you'll eventually capture all the markets, and with no labor that means no-one will be employed and so they'll have no means to buy your goods so demand will go down and you won't even be able to maintain existing profits :)
00:13 < klafka> but if you can produce a commodity without labor haven't you essentially eliminated scarcity so capitalism sort of falls apart?
00:13 < QuantumG> it's how it falls apart that is interesting
00:14 < klafka> i see
00:14 < klafka> yeah i always imagined it would be sorta like star trek "no more scarcity everyone gets shit for free yay"
00:15 < klafka> but in reality it would be a gigantic struggle because scarcity is what gives people power
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00:16 < QuantumG> that and guns
00:16 < QuantumG> scarcity of guns?
00:16 < klafka> oh yeah
00:16 < klafka> forgot about guns
00:18 < QuantumG> what I love about Star Trek is that it's supposedly a post-scarcity world but whenever the bridge crew go to have lunch there's someone there to serve on them
00:18 < QuantumG> what, does that person really like serving people or something?
00:18 < klafka> they're all robots man
00:18 < QuantumG> nope, they often turn them into characters
00:18 < klafka> QuantumG, also isn't that usually on other worlds
00:18 < klafka> not federation worlds
00:19 < QuantumG> no, like, on the Enterprise
00:20 < QuantumG> also, there seems to be no non-Federation starships... not even little ones
00:20 < QuantumG> from Earth
00:21 < QuantumG> the Enterprise flies back from some important mission and no-one even bothers to go up and fly in formation with her?
00:21 < QuantumG> I guess tradition died with the scarcity
00:21 < klafka> hey man new traditions
00:21 < klafka> it's 2600
00:22 < QuantumG> "I wanna go to space!" "Better join StarFleet." "Can't I, like, have my own ship?" "What are you, some kind of individualist!?"
00:23 < klafka> there are merchant ships
00:23 < klafka> and exploration ships
00:23 < klafka> man wtf we're using something called slurm now
00:23 < QuantumG> futurama?
00:23 < klafka> it's apparently a scheduling software
00:24 < klafka> and it can't do interactive scheduling
00:24 < klafka> freaking lame
00:25 < QuantumG> well, that's sorta my point.. there's merchant ships and exploration ships... commercial and government.. sounds pretty scarcity to me
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00:25 < QuantumG> if it really was a post-scarcity society wouldn't everyone who wanted a ship have one?
00:26 < klafka> it's true
00:26 < klafka> valid points
00:26 < QuantumG> like, go to the industrial replicator, say "gimme a ship", hop in, go have fun in the universe.
00:26 < klafka> i won't defend star trek too much, it's kind of hilariously outmoded
00:26 < klafka> although i imagine most of our fiction/speculation will be too in 30 years
00:26 < QuantumG> I read a hard sci-fi book from '67 recently
00:27 < QuantumG> it was hilarious
00:27 < QuantumG> back when it was ok to speculate that maybe Mars has 40% of the atmosphere of Earth
00:27 < klafka> heh yeah
00:27 < klafka> also lots of asimov
00:27 < klafka> but i still love it
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01:54 < heath_> fenn, kanzure, bkero: do any of you have a way of getting in touch with katsmeow?
01:54 < heath_> an email by chance?
01:55 < bkero> heath_: never got any contact info from her like that, sorry.
01:56 < heath_> her website uses some domain by proxy service :|
01:57 < heath_> which means no way of contacting of her
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03:44 < Utopiah> http://www.gopubmed.org/
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06:08 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
06:15 < JayDugger> Some time past, I had the "discussion" with my girlfriend. 
06:16 < JayDugger> To my great delight, she had a positive reaction to the topic of cryonics.
06:16 < JayDugger> She does complain that I look too thin. 
06:16 < JayDugger> Any suggestions on bringing up the subject of caloric restriction? :/
06:23 < genehacker> in order to get the benefit of caloric restriction, you'd really have to be starving yourself
06:23 < genehacker> it's not a good way to go about living
06:32 < Atrus_> Something tells me if she already complains about you being too thing, caloric restriction isn't going to fly with her.
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06:33 < JayDugger> Three words: better than dead.
06:34 < JayDugger> (If those don't convince a sympathetic crowd, it won't work with her.)
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06:54 < Atrus_> but as genehacker mentioned, to get the benefits, you'd have to essentially starve yourself, which, if you're going to suffer, it kinda negate thes "long and happy" life part
06:55 < Atrus_> But that's my opinion, if you're fine with being hungry, you tell her ;)
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09:57 < kanzure> patrickmclaren: ben goertzel would be the go-to guy for agi roadmap stuff
09:59 < kanzure> hm i had a date at noon (three minutes ago)
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10:44 < niftyzero1> mild caloric restriction doesn't really feel like starving at all... I'm 10-15% restricted and it's really not a big deal.  Just don't eat much carb-dense or nutrient poor foods.
10:48 < eridu> niftyzero1: are you vegan?
10:48 < niftyzero1> no, I eat eggs and fish.  but now dairy
10:49 < niftyzero1> no dairy
11:08 < fenn> QuantumG/klafka: about how the shit falls apart in a post scarcity scenario http://www.infinitematrix.net/stories/shorts/after-the-siege.html
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12:24 < fenn> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/the-lifeboat-foundation-battling-asteroids-nanobots-and-a-i/
12:25 < fenn> "a Personality Preserver that would help people keep their personalities intact" VERY FUNNY
12:26 < fenn> "basically a Web site that raises money for various things." aww
12:27 < fenn> they don't do a very good job of it
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16:41 < kanzure> please download and store this
16:41 < kanzure> pdf: http://info.publicintelligence.net/DHSunconventionalbiolabs.pdf
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16:48 < kanzure> i wonder if it would be 'educational' to host staged diybio-related calls to DHS
16:48 < kanzure> and see if they are able to identify a home lab as harmless or not
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17:42 < Ian_Daniher> Hey guys, doing some diybio hardware design work - should I be designing arduino shields or standalone boards? 
17:46 < Ian_Daniher> I'll be using parts found in the Arduino platform - a USB-serial adapter, an atmel microcontroller
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17:59 < kanzure> http://500millionfriends.com/ click "watch trailer"
17:59 < kanzure> peter thiel has this amazing ability to fund ridiculously manipulative and psychotic people :P
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20:27 < kanzure> "To me, the machine-readable format is less important than a quick human-readable format;" but it makes the file useless more or less..
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23:17 < kanzure> skdb mentioned: http://www.openhardwaresummit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 23 00:00:17 2010