--- Log opened Tue Jul 27 00:00:17 2010
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00:26 < kanzure> looks like i'm speaking at transvision this year
00:26 < kanzure> milano, italy here i come?
00:35 < splicer> sounds nice
00:45 < fenn> (the guy who visited eri's garagelab was guido from venezuela) <- guido nunez-mujica
00:45 < fenn> erf..
00:46 < fenn> ok nevermind, i'm not competent to think atm
00:47 < fenn> splicer you're going to be in berkeley?
00:47 < splicer> no, that's meredith
00:51 < splicer> I showed that to a friend who is something of an authority in local hacker culture. His comment was "So, you're pissing in the meme pool now? Congratulations"
01:13 < splicer> Actually it was the same guy who pointed me to iGEM in the first place, it was alway associated to hacker culture for me... we don't really have the DIY/maker culture.
01:13 < splicer> here DIY is more associated to growing your own vegetables and that sort of thing.
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05:29 < patrickmclaren> oh great, aiming for 2500 is he
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06:02 < patrickmclaren> just finished editing a lecture for SIAI
06:02 < patrickmclaren> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LjdRHfaDzc 
06:02 < patrickmclaren> youtube is still processing so quality is still pretty bad
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06:18 < Utopiah> transcript available?
06:18 < Utopiah> (maybe the blog article covers it all, would be nice to have YouTube deep links then)
06:19 < splicer> short version: "A belief system should be falsifiable"
06:19  * Utopiah has a hard time reading more than 1 paragraph or listen to a video more than 5min long without an explicit outline
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10:34 < kanzure> http://www.tmplab.org/wiki/index.php/BioHacklab
10:44 < kanzure> http://mauimakers.com/ is jerry isdale in hawaii
10:46 < kanzure> fenn: are you still offering me a place to sleep for a few days?
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11:11 < kanzure> egeste: are you around?
11:18 < kanzure> http://www.kurzweilai.net/from-diy-to-diwo-biohackers-synthetic-biologists-and-fbi-to-dialogue-at-open-science-summit)
11:18 < kanzure> http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/biohackers-synthetic-biologists-and-the-fbi
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11:53 < pmetzger> I was unaware of diylilcnc before now.
11:53 < pmetzger> the meme is spreading.
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12:55 < Utopiah> (An Introduction to Firefox's Tab Candy on Vimeo http://vimeo.com/13560319 by Aza Raskin) I think it's a bad idea but some people could like it
13:01 < kanzure> fyi adl.serveftp.org is no more (i think)
13:01 < kanzure> i forgot to log into the dyndns account in time
13:17 < kanzure> ok adl.serveftp.org is backup and operational
13:17 < kanzure> does anyone know what "Instant Immersion.zip" is doing in /var/www/ on davinci? it seems to have been created by campbell
13:17 < kanzure> but the file is a broken zip file
13:20 < patrickmclaren> Utopiah: http://lesswrong.com/lw/i3/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated_experiences/
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13:38 < fenn> kanzure sure, we may even have a tent-like thing for you if you're lucky
13:39 < fenn> here's some math candy for y'all 
13:39 < fenn> http://dojo-cs-theory-circle.googlegroups.com/web/negabinary_talk.pdf?hl=en&gda=pZNeZUYAAAB7jwefurHp9i4WOCQ2DNwICzHyTjFon0vgscCSANnb_2Bry0wGvKY-A-L8LUT1axW4qzmRyw7pERYbIIbTVVQIE-Ea7GxYMt0t6nY0uV5FIQ&gsc=e0bBuBgAAAAkFjxYrzg45BWXecucQSHFLfmonIH7kc9uuuK1xjSAVQ
13:40 < fenn> ooh fat pipes here when nobody's using them
13:40 < fenn> if that link didnt work: http://fennetic.net/irc/negabinary_talk.pdf
13:42 < kanzure> speaking of math candy.. http://mathoverflow.net/
13:45 < kanzure> fenn: any suggestions for demos for my python/STEP library? so far i've been thinking: bolt, washer, bearings, airplane wing/foil, lead screw, toe clamp
13:45 < kanzure> anything obvious that i'm missing out on? "hello world" stuff
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13:58 < pmetzger> kanzure: how is your STEP library at this point?
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14:04 < kanzure> pathetic but functional
14:04 < kanzure> i think you underestimated the amount of time required to actually get the non-EXPRESS-based-version working
14:04 < kanzure> :P
14:05 < kanzure> but i think it's downhill from this point on (plus some time to rewrite the internals so that it doesn't make me puke to look at)
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14:09 < fenn> a bolt would be super cool, if you can figure out how to do all that stuff
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14:31 < pmetzger> well, did you end up using any of the python lexical analyzer/parser generator tools?
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14:36 < kanzure> masked: no
14:36 < kanzure> wtf
14:36 < kanzure> pmetzger: no
14:36 < kanzure> there we go :)
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14:43 < pmetzger> it is easiest to parse large grammars using parser generators.
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14:48 < gnusha> http://blog.reprap.org/2010/07/glow-in-dark-pla.html glow in the dark plastic
14:48 < gnusha> designfiles.org looks down to me
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16:11 < patrickmclaren> kanzure: that post for Pink Army Coop, http://pastebin.com/c04zPeuu
16:11 < patrickmclaren> anything to change?
16:13 < pmetzger> I think kanzure is not logged in.
16:13 < patrickmclaren> oh, forgot to check.. thanks for that!
16:16 < gnusha> nah i'm here
16:17 < gnusha> patrickmclaren: you might want to add a question about "waiting for 2500 members" or something, or a comment about how you feel about "waiting for media promotion" versus "how about we just start doing this stuff now"
16:19 < patrickmclaren> yeah I'll definitely add something about the 2500 members
16:20 < pmetzger> ah. if you are around: my advice, if you're doing something that parses a complicated grammar, is to use the tools people make available for that. I think ANTLR will generate python code at this point...
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16:32 < patrickmclaren> gnusha: posted it, still to be approved by mods though
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--- Log opened Tue Jul 27 16:55:43 2010
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16:56 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n39RK4inzg http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplus-summit-2009/ http://heybryan.org/
16:56 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Mon Jan 11 11:14:52 2010]
16:56 [Users #hplusroadmap]
16:56 [ augur ] [ ENKI-][    ] [ Joeconyers  ] [ mage2     ] [ Noahj         ] [ QuantumG ] 
16:56 [ bkero ] [ eridu      ] [ jrayhawk    ] [ masked    ] [ nsh_          ] [ shepazu  ] 
16:56 [ CIA-51] [ ghchinoy   ] [ kardan      ] [ memenode  ] [ Overand       ] [ splicer  ] 
16:56 [ clemux] [ gnusha     ] [ kive        ] [ nchaimov  ] [ pasky_        ] [ streety1 ] 
16:56 [ drazak] [ gnusha_    ] [ klafka      ] [ niftyzero ] [ patrickmclaren] [ superkuh ] 
16:56 [ egeste] [ guibou     ] [ kristianpaul] [ niftyzero1] [ Phreedom      ] [ ToyKeeper] 
16:56 [ elmom ] [ Ian_Daniher] [ kyb3R       ] [ nima      ] [ pmetzger      ] [ Utopiah  ] 
16:56 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 42 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 42 normal]
16:56 !holmes.freenode.net [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
16:56 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Fri Jan 29 23:48:24 2010
16:56 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 1 secs
16:58 < gnusha> jrayhawk: is there a way to do http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-desktop-74/sharing-folders-between-two-linux-users-on-same-machine-read-write-execute-782258/ without setfacl? chmod g+s isn't sufficient apparently
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17:00 < pmetzger> that seems like overkill.
17:00 < pmetzger> two users on the box, just set the thing globally writable.
17:00 < pmetzger> chmod -R ugo+rwX the directory.
17:00 < gnusha> the end state is what i want.. the situation is different (say, more than two users)
17:00 < pmetzger> I don't see how acls will help...
17:00 < pmetzger> what is your precise application?
17:00 < gnusha> also when you add files into it the files do not inherit the samee    permissions
17:01 < gnusha> permission inheritance between different users that don't understand permission models
17:01 < pmetzger> what is the exact application?
17:01 < gnusha> go away
17:01 < jrayhawk> ACLs are the best way. There's also cron-based permissions fixing and wacky inotify solutions.
17:01 < pmetzger> go away?
17:02 < gnusha> cron seems lame for this
17:02 < pmetzger> acls are rarely the best solution for anything.
17:02 < pmetzger> inotify is probably overkill. cron every minute seems like it would probably work fine.
17:02 < pmetzger> but the real question is what is being done.
17:03 < pmetzger> though if you would really prefer that I leave, just confirm and I'll go.
17:03 < pmetzger> eh, I'll just assume you meant it. bye.
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17:04 < jrayhawk> There are lamer approaches. For instance, you can use a filesystem that doesn't support GIDs and mount it to a specific GID and umask.
17:06 < gnusha> what's up with pmetzger?
17:07 < jrayhawk> he's been spurned :(
17:08 < jrayhawk> I also like forcing people to use git for object storage.
17:09 < jrayhawk> But the feasibility of that depends on your usage model.
17:09 < gnusha> this is one of those hopeless situations where you'd orgasm if you could even get them to use cvs
17:10 < gnusha> but instead they are using shared ftp accounts on random shared file hosts or something
17:10 < gnusha> for software development.
17:10 < jrayhawk> aaaaaaa
17:11 < jrayhawk> You could set up inotify to git commit every time they close a filehandle.
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17:15 < jrayhawk> Is there a particular reason they're not using version control?
17:15 < gnusha> incompetence
17:16 < jrayhawk> TortoiseGit and TortoiseSVN, while a pain to set up, are fairly easy to use on Windows if it helps.
17:16 < gnusha> it took me over 1.5 years to get a professor to use tortoisesvn
17:16 < gnusha> (but then he learned to love it)
17:17 < jrayhawk> Speaking of painful learning curves, is that Ikiwiki stuff working out for you?
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17:28 < jrayhawk> I'd share with you the horror of our normal cron-based directory sharing approach, but cysteine appears to be down for some reason? I should probably go fix that.
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18:10 < gnusha> ikiwiki stuff is working, yeah
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18:17 < patrickmclaren> gnusha: http://groups.google.com/group/pink-army-cooperative/t/c899b8c38f735d6c
18:17 < klafka> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/07/pork-filled_cou.html
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18:53 < patrickmclaren> kanzure: http://groups.google.com/group/pink-army-cooperative/t/c899b8c38f735d6c
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19:15 < kanzure> patrickmclaren: yes i saw :) thanks for posting
19:15 < kanzure> i just need to figure out what reply to write
19:15 < kanzure> hello dizm 
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19:47 < mheld> anybody know of any dynamically reconfigurable computing platforms?
19:51 < kanzure> FPGAs?
19:51 < mheld> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconfigurable_datapath_array
19:51 < mheld> I'd like an FPGA that can be programming while it's running
19:51 < mheld> but the closest one I can find is that, which doesn't seem to exist in real life
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20:03 < Utopiah> mheld: OPGAs but they aren't really "real life"
20:04 < Utopiah> and it's not really while it's running, it's fast but not real time
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20:07 < Utopiah> cf http://www.erc.caltech.edu/Research02/reports/panotopoulos2full.html
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20:45 < dizm> hi kanzura
20:45 < dizm> kanzure, sorry
20:46 < dizm> is heybryan.com broken?
20:58 < fenn> it's heybryan.org
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21:06 < fenn> i think the content of "open science summit" has mutated quite a bit since I first read the draft description
21:19 < kanzure> gordon bell?
21:20 < kanzure> jerry glenn?
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21:24  * fenn downloads mailing list archives....
21:26 < kanzure> oh huh heybryan.org /is/ down
21:27 < kanzure> dizm: it should be back up now
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21:33 < fenn> compare the text here http://fenn.freeshell.org/oss2010_draft.txt with what's up now: http://opensciencesummit.com/about/
21:34 < fenn> they berkeley-ized it
21:43 < kanzure> hehh
21:51 < kanzure> pack vs. code
21:51 < kanzure> it's a tough decision
21:53 < fenn> Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad inaugurated a new policy on Tuesday to encourage population growth
21:54 < fenn> $950 per kid
21:54 < fenn> + $95/ye for 18 years
21:55 < fenn> "Parents will also be expected to pay matching funds into the accounts."
21:55 < fenn> dont really get the last line
21:56 < fenn> pack now, then write code and remember what you forgot to pack
21:57 < fenn> if you brought my bathroom stuff and socks it would make me happy
21:57 < fenn> contact lenses in there somewhere would be useful
21:58 < kanzure> weirdest thing happened the other day
21:58 < kanzure> mom wanted me to bring over some dirty laundry when i visited
21:58 < kanzure> so i did.. and she found a contact lense case in the collection
21:59 < kanzure> and she thought i was hiding some sort of affair with a woman
21:59 < kanzure> (or a guy :-/)
21:59 < kanzure> i didn't know they were yours
21:59 < fenn> lol
21:59 < fenn> good thing i didnt leave my lipstick in there too
22:00 < fenn> my new room came with a bulk package of condoms
22:00 < kanzure> bulk package?
22:00 < fenn> well, 24
22:00 < kanzure> is that bulk?
22:00 < fenn> i dunno
22:01 < kanzure> god we're lame
22:02 < fenn> i wish i'd known you were leaving earlier so i could guilt you into bringing more stuff
22:02 < kanzure> it was a last minute ticket purchase
22:02 < fenn> do you still hang out at the fabratory much?
22:02 < kanzure> i thought i was leaving early july
22:02 < kanzure> not during the summer
22:02 < kanzure> way, way too hot
22:03 < kanzure> but i do have a key and i do hang there every once in a while
22:03 < fenn> are the fishtubs still reasonably accessible? last i saw they were on top of one of the rooms
22:04 < kanzure> they are still there
22:04 < kanzure> they are quasi-reasonably accessible with a ladder
22:04 < kanzure> dave has hextatic
22:05 < fenn> i want to get some of the electronics (lithium batteries, sensor chips, misc components) before mid august
22:06 < fenn> those big lithium batteries are either expensive or take randint()%5 months to arrive from china
22:09 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/step.py
22:09 < fenn> there's also the third option of using the unlabeled li-po cells from noisebridge and possibly self-immolating
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22:11 < kanzure> i know, i know
22:11 < kanzure> it's terrible
22:12 < kanzure> but the wrapper will make it look nice and pretty
22:12 < fenn> kanzure: for step.py to ever be useful it's going to need an API definition
22:12 < kanzure> yes
22:12 < kanzure> take a look at test_sphere()
22:12 < kanzure> all that stuff is going to be abstracted away from the user
22:12 < kanzure> most of it is just metadata
22:13 < kanzure> the real beans are the product_definition_shape and advanced_brep_shape_representation entities
22:14 < kanzure> oh wait, s/product_definition_shape/shape_definition_representation/
22:14 < fenn> did you just massage the express file into python with vim?
22:14 < kanzure> yes and no
22:15 < kanzure> it's been quite an experience of random bullshitting of all sorts
22:15 < kanzure> at one point i was writing a python file to read the file python and interject code in particular places O_O
22:15 < kanzure> which is of course   the wrong thingg   to do
22:15 < kanzure> *which is of ccccourse the wwwrong thingggg to do
22:15 < kanzure> wtf
22:15 < kanzure> ;sdfkljadjkl;adfjkfasdjkl;fasdjk
22:15 < fenn> heh negative zero
22:15 < fenn> that's double plus fantastic
22:15 < ybit> kanzure: adl.serveftp.org is down ftr..
22:16 < kanzure> ybit: yes i know :(
22:18 < kanzure> heh i have a phd student at the uni to go check out the server tomorrow
22:19 < kanzure> so we'll see what's up.
22:19 < kanzure> fenn: Level2API.py is pretty lame
22:19 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/csg.py is way too basic
22:19 < kanzure> oh that's right, the server is down >_<
22:20 < kanzure> uh, well anyway, we need a good API structure for this
22:20 < kanzure> while you're espousing on how to make it not suck, maybe i can go pack your socks?
22:20 < kanzure> heh
22:21 < fenn> oh, i dont know that much about how STEP actually works, because i never got to read the real documentation
22:21 < kanzure> no no i mean the abstract CAD-like API
22:21 < fenn> i just know there's 13 different ways of specifying a spline
22:21 < fenn> so this is inherently confusing
22:21 < fenn> i think something like asciidoc generated from docstrings would be a good route for making documentation
22:22 < kanzure> for making geometric primitives, sketches, fusions, intersections, ..
22:22 < fenn> or sphinx(?)
22:22 < kanzure> nobody should ever have to see the stuff in step.py
22:22 < kanzure> but rather see stuff like "class Sphere" and "class Edge"
22:22 < fenn> hm, i guess
22:22 < kanzure> and that namespace and API full of easy-to-use constructs is what i'm wondering about
22:22 < kanzure> people are welcome to use the step.py stuff i guess but honestly they are insane
22:23 < fenn> i agree most of the boilerplate stuff should be automatic
22:23 < kanzure> yeah, hide that in a few __init__s or something
22:23 < kanzure> but a weird idea hit me- what about a sphere.fuse(box) where sphere is in one context (metric units) and the other is in imperial buttloads?
22:23 < kanzure> so maybe i'll do some unit conversion magic somewhere
22:24 < fenn> er, is that even possible? fuse?
22:24 < kanzure> heekscad has a "fuse"
22:24 < fenn> right, that's opencascade tho
22:24 < kanzure> and solidworks and just about everything else
22:25 < kanzure> fuse would just mean delete the surfaces that are occluded by the intersection and stitch the surfaces at the intersection edges, or something
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22:28 < fenn> which is mor9e than jjust step import
22:28 < fenn> SMOP
22:28 < kanzure> smop?
22:28 < kanzure> fenn: this isn't step import
22:28 < kanzure> this is step export
22:30 < fenn> i know, but you cant specify 'fuse these together' in a step file
22:30 < kanzure> right, you have to evaluate that command
22:31 < kanzure> which i think is OK to include in an API that is wrapping around all these step-specific bullshit classes
22:31 < kanzure> but maybe, i agree, is not the first/primary goal to accomplish
22:32 < fenn> simple matter of programming: used ironically to imply that a difficult problem can be easily solved because a program can be written to do it; the irony is that it is very clear that writing such a program will be a great deal of work. “It's easy to enhance a FORTRAN compiler to compile COBOL as well; it's just a SMOP.�
22:32 < fenn> simple matter of programming: used ironically to imply that a difficult problem can be easily solved because a program can be written to do it; the irony is that it is very clear that writing such a program will be a great deal of work. "It's easy to enhance a FORTRAN compiler to compile COBOL as well; it's just a SMOP."
22:33 < kanzure> meh less work than step.py has been so far
22:33 < kanzure> splicer: http://www.transalchemy.com/2010/07/rise-of-biopunk.html
22:34 < splicer> kanzure: Thanks, I read it this morning
22:34 < kanzure> it's too bad genehacker didn't jump on this: http://www.thegenehacker.com/
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22:52 < splicer> apparently I'm genehacker.org
22:55 < fenn> wow they finished already http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2010/07/26/Plastiki-finishes-Pacific-voyage/UPI-70481280126232/
22:56 < kanzure> random openfoam/brlcad hating http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?p=2032913
22:57 < ybit> kanzure: feel free to grab this paper: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja00471a041 if you have utexas access
22:58 < ybit> or similar papers...
22:58 < ybit> dunno who else here might have access..
23:00 < kanzure> i have access but i don't want to right now. the server should be back up tomorrow anyway.
23:06 < ybit> also of interest: http://digital.csic.es/handle/10261/15287?idioma=en :: "Fabricación de nanoestructuras biomoleculares y nanodispositivos electrónicos mediante Nanolitografía por Oxidación Local"
23:06 < ybit> also of interest: http://digital.csic.es/handle/10261/15287?idioma=en :: "Fabricación de nanoestructuras biomoleculares y nanodispositivos electrónicos mediante Nanolitografía por Oxidación Local"
23:11 < ybit> and this one because everyone cares: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/322/5900/413 :: "Complex Patterning by Vertical Interchange Atom Manipulation Using Atomic Force Microscopy"
23:16 < kanzure> the world of credit card processing is bizarre http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1734454&cid=33052684
23:17 < kanzure> heh http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1734454&cid=33052778
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23:22 < kanzure> fenn: plastiki was all over the news when i was at mom's the other day.
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23:31 < fenn> man, sorting videos takes for ever
23:31 < fenn> hey, one of you internet people needs to like, edit these or something
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23:41 < kanzure> fenn: context?
23:45 < ybit> god i hate patents
23:45 < ybit> http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=kToQAAAAEBAJ&dq=non-contact+atomic+force+microscope
23:45 < ybit> we have to wait until this expires to make an open equivalent of it? :\
23:47 < ybit> you don't have to pay fees if you are building stuff for educational purposes right? you could, in theory, build it and show others how to as well if they would like to make it for educational purposes as well
23:47 < ybit> sleep time.
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