--- Log opened Wed Aug 11 00:00:17 2010
00:01 < kanzure> so, i think opennurbs has a gl rendering front with opennurbs_gl.cpp
00:03 < kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/projects/on-wrap/files/pre-alpha/fileset%200.1/pyOpenNurbs.zip/download
00:07 < kanzure> swig -python opennurbs.i -cpperraswarn
00:07 < kanzure> but you have to also mess up opennurbs.i a bit to get it to work on linux (since it was written for a windows host)
00:07 < kanzure> i extracted the zip file into ~/local/brlcad/brlcad-7.16.8/src/other/python because it looks for ../opennurbs/ (but i had to do a search and replace to openNURBS because, again, the path it was looking for was wrong)
00:08 < kanzure> now i get this: ../openNURBS/opennurbs_system.h:283: Error: Extra short specifier.
00:18 < kanzure> fixed that by a #DEFINE just above line 280something to make it think it's gcc
00:19 < kanzure> ../openNURBS/opennurbs_crc.h:64: Error: Syntax error in input(1).
00:27 < kanzure> git://git.debian.org/users/eugen/opennurbs.git might be handy
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00:31 < kanzure> hrm i'm probably never going to be able to do this again but i got it to work
00:34 < kanzure> this worked: swig -classic -cpperraswarn -c++ -python opennurbs.i
00:35 < kanzure> and presumably this is supposed to? g++ -I/usr/include/python2.6/ opennurbs_wrap.cxx -o _opennurbs.o
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00:47 < kanzure> there's a whole section on the wchar_t errors here: http://www.swig.org/Doc1.3/SWIG.html
01:02 < kanzure> opennurbs_wrap.cxx:(.text._ZN14ON_SimpleArrayIP7ON_FontE7PermuteEPKi[ON_SimpleArray<ON_Font*>::Permute(int const*)]+0x3d): undefined reference to `onmalloc'
01:07 < kanzure> uh am i supposed to link to opennurbs.o or something?
01:07 < QuantumG> http://quantumg.blogspot.com/2010/08/asteroid-menace.html
01:12 < kanzure> http://wiki.mcneel.com/developer/opennurbs/faq
01:12 < kanzure> "#
01:12 < kanzure> All memory allocations and frees are done through onmalloc(), onfree(), and onrealloc(). The source code that ships with openNURBS simply has onmalloc() call malloc() and onfree() call free().
01:20 < kanzure> "consult your local GL whiz for details" gee, thanks opennurbs!
01:26 < kanzure> this is probably stupid of me but i downloaded the 2010-04-09 version of opennurbs and compiled it to get libopenNURBS.a and am using that to link against for the swigged stuff (when i compile the result of the swigged stuff, i mean)
01:27 < kanzure> yeah it didn't work. :P
01:34 < kanzure> god damn it
01:34 < kanzure> googled for: swig "undefined reference to `PyTuple_Type'"
01:34 < kanzure> and got back me :(
01:34 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/pythonocc/scons_notes.txt
01:34 < kanzure> okay adding -lpython2.5 makes sense
01:36 < kanzure> opennurbs_wrap.cxx:(.text._ZN13ON_ClassArrayI12ON_HatchLineE23ConstructDefaultElementEPS0_[ON_ClassArray<ON_HatchLine>::ConstructDefaultElement(ON_HatchLine*)]+0x2a): undefined reference to `ON_HatchLine::ON_HatchLine()'
01:36 < kanzure> my line is: g++ -I/usr/include/python2.5/ -L. -lpython2.5 -lopenNURBS opennurbs_wrap.cxx -o _opennurbs.o
01:54 < kanzure> to get example_gl/example_gl.cpp to compile in opennurbs i had to add a #define CALLBACK randomly
02:03 < kanzure> wow just compiling the example file was an ordeal :P
02:04 < kanzure> it works, and i can rotate an object in the window, but there's this blue flashing line every time i rotate a bit
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02:30 < epitron> doublebuffering!
02:30 < epitron> backface culling!
02:31 < epitron> occlusion trees!
02:36 < kanzure> opennurbs_wrap.cxx:(.text._ZN13ON_ClassArrayI14ON_MaterialRefE8HeapSortEPFiPKS0_S3_E[ON_ClassArray<ON_MaterialRef>::HeapSort(int (*)(ON_MaterialRef const*, ON_MaterialRef const*))]+0x54): undefined reference to `ON_hsort(void*, unsigned int, unsigned int, int (*)(void const*, void const*))'
02:37 < kanzure> is there something other than -lopenNURBS that i should be adding to my g++ line to compile opennurbs_wrap.cxx (the result of the swig generator)?
02:38 < epitron> maybe swig missed a method
02:38 < epitron> ON_hsort
02:38 < kanzure> do you know what swig is?
02:38 < epitron> yes
02:38 < kanzure> i don't need to expose ON_hsort in the interface
02:38 < epitron> you're right though, swig wouldn't be responsible for this
02:39 < epitron> yeah, i'm just saying things
02:39 < kanzure> kk
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09:09 < kanzure> i dno't get it http://scienceonlinelondon.wikidot.com/topics:green-chain-reaction
09:09 < kanzure> *don't
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09:31 < kanzure> elevenarms suggests http://libcinder.org/ for visualization magics
09:32 < kanzure> this looks like overkill: http://roberthodgin.com/cymatic-ferrofluid/
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09:46 < kanzure> fenn: what the hell is going on with luf-team and why are they all of the sudden doing social networking bullshit?
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10:11 < fenn> you mean like, talking to each other?
10:11 < fenn> cinder is neat
10:16 < fenn> re: the cymatic/ferrofluid thing, i saw something like that (but different) based around a webcam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyOen546D5E
10:17 < fenn> i drank a pound of spinach this morning (discovered the vita-mix)
10:21 < fenn> it has a splash guard (?) which is really nice because it dampens the noise to about the sound of a cordless drill
10:31 < kanzure> it seems like someone is trying to hijack luf-team and i haven't seen eric around in a while
10:31 < kanzure> is he dead?
10:32 < fenn> hope not
10:32 < kanzure> you know what this means right?
10:32 < kanzure> his "autobiography" is going to be "coauthored" by ben lipkowitz
10:32 < kanzure> best of luck.
10:34 < kanzure> okay, so, i was trying to swig opennurbs and i found someone who attempted it a while back
10:34 < kanzure> (and the resulting file)
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10:35 < kanzure> i've finally got it down to only a handful of errors when compiling the _opennurbs.so object
10:35 < kanzure> for instance: opennurbs_wrap.cxx:(.text+0xa6bb2): undefined reference to `ON_UuidIndexList::Write(ON_BinaryArchive&) const'
10:35 < fenn> "You are justified in
10:35 < fenn> feeling that you both worked very hard for education and experience you have gained, and it is frustrating
10:35 < fenn> to the point of hyperventilation to be asked to bring someone like me along."
10:35 < fenn> WORDS
10:36 < kanzure> there's about 8 of those left, but there were originally 20 of those and i made them vanish by adding %ignore lines to the swig interface file (but apparently %ignore didn't work for these few remaining issues?)
10:36 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, them fighting words
10:36 < kanzure> i read that email and couldn't figure out what he thought you said
11:02 < kanzure> hey who is elifarley and why do i keep running into him?
11:02 < kanzure> oh i'm confusing him with eli chait
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11:45 < kanzure> fenn: do you want to write a "why we shouldn't have a dependency on opencascade in skdb" post to om? leo dearden is asking
11:59 < kanzure> ooh it worked: g++ -c ../opennurbs/*.cpp opennurbs_wrap.cxx -I/usr/include/python2.5/ -I/usr/lib/python2.5/ -L. -lpython2.5 -lopenNURBS -lGLU -lGL -lglut -lXmu -lXi -lXext -lX11 2>&1
11:59 < kanzure> but i had to manually edit opennurbs_wrap.cxx because the %ignore statements didn't take effect >:o
12:07 < kanzure> TOO MANY CONSOLES!! http://tpc.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CMD4_ZmXx8qx8gEQ0AIYmAIyCMUjf8jGhi1Q
12:09 < kanzure> ImportError: ./_opennurbs.so: undefined symbol: __cxa_guard_acquire
12:10 < kanzure> this helped me at least get to that point: http://www.penzilla.net/tutorials/python/swig/
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12:30 < fenn> plz remind me about om post later
12:30 < kanzure> what is later?
12:31 < kanzure> also it's odd that neither of us have written it up anyway.. seems like it would save a lot of others some time?
12:32 < kanzure> when compiling opennurbs_wrap.cxx osmething like -lstdc++ needs to be added near -L.
12:32 < kanzure> so that makes it: g++ -c ../opennurbs/*.cpp opennurbs_wrap.cxx -I/usr/include/python2.5/ -I/usr/lib/python2.5/ -L. -lstdc++ -lpython2.5 -lopenNURBS -lGLU -lGL -lglut -lXmu -lXi -lXext -lX11 2>&1
12:32 < kanzure> and then you link it up: ld -shared -o _opennurbs.so libopenNURBS.a opennurbs_wrap.o
12:32 < kanzure> hrm.. -lstc++ didn't fix the __cxa_guard_acquire problem.
12:51 < kanzure> >> import opennurbs
12:51 < kanzure> success.. but i didn't bother to check if ON_GL was in the swig interface definition >_< so there's no opengl stuff included
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12:52 < kanzure> hi alfeb 
12:52 < alfeb> hello
12:53 < alfeb> I'm a physicist very interested in OSH and the skdb project
12:54 < kanzure> :)
12:54 < kanzure> then you're in the right place
12:54 < alfeb> :)
12:54 < kanzure> today i've been wrestling with some nurbs visualization libraries
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12:56 < kanzure> hrm
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12:59 < kanzure> welcome back alfeb 
12:59 < alfeb> thanks
13:00 < kanzure> did you find your way here via the open manufacturing group?
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13:02 < alfeb> open source ecology -> fab,tractors,spaceships, printers ... long etc of a few days -> skdb and then here
13:02 < kanzure> got it
13:03 < kanzure> opennurbs_wrap.cxx:330174: error: expected type-specifier before 'GLUnurbsObj'
13:04 < kanzure> hm
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13:07 < kanzure> huh i wonder why opennurbs.h doesn't include opennurbs_gl.h by default
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13:37 < kanzure> now for the gruesome conversion of example_gl.cpp into python
13:37 < kanzure> http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=109183
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13:50 < kanzure> http://emergenttransformation.com/
13:50 < kanzure> does anyone know what "the sandbox network" is and why max marmer keeps showing up in weird places?
13:51 < kanzure> http://maxmarmer.com/2010/07/implications-of-startups-that-exist-to-maximize-abundant-social-capital-instead-of-scarce-economic-capital/
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13:54 < kanzure> http://www.sandbox-network.com/
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13:59 < kanzure> looks elitist
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14:16 < alfeb> darn! turned 30 last year :) won't make it into their special-people club
14:18 < alfeb> there are other social-entrepreneurship organizations, some involved in OSH in some way or another
14:19 < alfeb> http://iddsummit.org/ from MITs fab lab for ex. 
14:19 < alfeb> (sorry, from the D-lab, not fab lab)
14:20 < alfeb> http://www.unreasonableinstitute.org/ too
14:20 < kanzure> wtf are these?
14:23 < kanzure> it's alarming how people flock towards social exclusivity
14:25 < alfeb> well, IDDS summit gathers farmers, welders, artisans, mathematicians, designers, engineers, ... who just apply
14:25 < alfeb> usually from around the world (mostly developing countries) to develop appropriate technology for third world problems
14:26 < kanzure> any time people say "appropriate technology" what they really mean is they are going to patent it and then restrict its diffusion (example: diagnostics for all)
14:26 < alfeb> well, it's often the case.  But in this particular case I can tell you it's not as I attended the summit a couple of years back
14:26 < kanzure> okay.
14:26 < alfeb> they came up with simple stuff like a corn sheller
14:27 < alfeb> (may look pretty stupid as it's a piece of bent metal ... but it can save lots  working hours )
14:27 < alfeb> but not much to patent there (or a special hammer to make charcoal)
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14:30 < splicer_> I have a stupd question: Does this say that the price to sequence 96x400bp is $4.86 if I send them the 96 well plate and the primers? 
14:30 < splicer_> https://dnacore.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/sequencing/index.shtml#rates
14:31 < splicer_> ...or am I missing something?
14:31 < kanzure> sounds like you got it right
14:31 < kanzure> but that might be 4.87 per well?
14:32 < kanzure> "$4.87 per sample ... $3.10/sample for orders containing 96 samples in plate format"
14:33 < splicer_> I think you're right... it would be 4.87 for 400-600bp I think
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14:37 < splicer_> thanks kanzure
14:40 < splicer_> what was the reason I'd want to build a gelbox again?
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14:51 < fenn> tagadelic (the neat tag cloud thingy on sandbox-network.com) is nifty and i dont think it absolutely requires drupal/plone/whatever to work
14:52 < fenn> where else has max marmer showed up?
14:57 < alfeb> quick question, is updates-from-austin.pdf up on adl.serveftp.org? or is it just my connexion?
14:57 < kanzure> adl.serveftp.org was confiscated by "the proper authorities"
14:57 < kanzure> i could throw the file up somewhere else though if you give me a few seconds to upload
14:58 < alfeb> that would be great, thank you
15:00 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/irc/updates-from-austin.pdf
15:02 < alfeb> thanks
15:02 < kanzure> i'm sorry you have to ask manually for the files.. i should just drive over there and see if the server is still physically there
15:02 < kanzure> maybe i'll do that tomorrow
15:06 < kanzure> alfeb: there's better stuff than just updates-from-austin.pdf btw
15:07 < alfeb> I'm all ears
15:07 < fenn> kanzure has a car?
15:08 < kanzure> i've had a car for.. uh
15:08 < kanzure> a long time :)
15:08 < fenn> well uh, belated congratulations
15:09 < kanzure> http://www.autoclub.com.au/uploaded_images/toyota-rav4-2006-759707.jpg
15:09 < kanzure> fenn: alfeb's ears make me think we should have written an actual whitepaper on this shit a while ago
15:09 < kanzure> honestly a pdf file sent to rob stone is not what i'd call "quality material" :)
15:11 < alfeb> if you need LaTeX typesetting to make it look like "quality material" I'd be happy to chip in
15:11 < kanzure> hehe
15:11 < kanzure> quite possibly
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15:12 < kanzure> alfeb: the best thing that you could be staring at is http://github.com/kanzure/skdb/ i guess
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15:12 < kanzure> the doc/ folder has the architecture, "best guesses for the future" example files, stuff like that
15:13 < kanzure> i did a scrape of thingiverse and made skdb-like packages for all of the thingiverse objects, but that's also on davinci / adl.serveftp.org
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15:15 < alfeb> I've started to have a look ... on github ... oh, the conversion of all thingiverse objects sounds quite impressive, how did it work out?
15:20 < kanzure> the hardest part was figuring out the names for the packages
15:20 < kanzure> i had a little convert to take the name of the thingiverse object and turn it into a "unix name"
15:20 < kanzure> however, in many cases thingiverse objects have absolutely awful titles
15:21 < kanzure> 1/4" fitting
15:21 < kanzure> stuff like that is common :P
15:21 < alfeb> I see
15:21 < kanzure> and if you just strip that or whatever you get 14-fitting
15:21 < kanzure> which is a pretty useless package name
15:24 < alfeb> sure.  Well, I need to know more about what a "skdb-like package" looks like before understanding the extent of the scrape, so I'll have more questions another time
15:26 < kanzure> basically it's metadata plus cad files
15:26 < kanzure> but in the case of thingiverse they just have mesh files more often than not
15:26 < kanzure> also a license file or license attribute in the metadata
15:27 < kanzure> there are a few unanswered issues with packages though because we've never actually figured out if having a python file inside of a package to define algorithms (and whatever else) was appropriate or not
15:28 < alfeb> why would it not be appropriate?
15:28 < kanzure> it's generally a bad idea to hard code anything
15:29 < kanzure> for instance, in the screw package there's screw.py which defines max_load and a few other methods for various calculations.. in no particular order either :P
15:30 < kanzure> fenn: write that email?
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15:30 < alfeb> so...(showing my lack of understanding with a question), the problem is that another algorithm/language could not access some of the methods?
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15:31 < kanzure> well i guess you could get access to those methods from another language (like if you include a python interpreter in your C++ project or just call the script from a shell)
15:32 < kanzure> it just seems messy
15:32 < alfeb> sure
15:34 < alfeb> now, another ignorant question ... does some of the metadata enable combining parts (or things)?  And if so ... the combinations could very easily grow exponentially ... making it hard to combine the parts.
15:34 < kanzure> "making it hard to combine the parts" hard in what way?
15:34 < kanzure> one of the demos we did were legos
15:34 < kanzure> so there's an interactive demo of plugging legos together
15:35 < kanzure> the data that defined this was a set of "control points" assigned in 3D space with a vector pointing away from the object, like at the holes and other connector points on a lego
15:35 < kanzure> hm i have a screenshot of this on the server that isn't up
15:36 < kanzure> we implemented an axis-aligned bounding box collision detection routine for combining the lego parts to make sure no parts intersected each other in an assembly
15:37 < alfeb> no, I mean hard computationally, that if you have 100 parts with N "contact points", then you have N**100 combinations
15:37 < kanzure> for the demo we only allowed random choices for where to try to add a brick, so naturally it took quite a while when you had a large 15+ lego model to run through the collision detection for each of the random attempts at plugging in a lego
15:37 < kanzure> (this was using opencascade and their visualization system, so it wasn't exactly obvious how to get the mouse controls working)
15:38 < kanzure> yes that's true
15:38 < kanzure> but primarily skdb is about building things first and foremost
15:38 < kanzure> automated design problem solving is a nice novelty and something i've thought a lot about, but it definitely doesn't seem necessary for first demos
15:41 < alfeb> I understand.  It sure is a complex problem.  if your machine is missing a part, finding the right part efficiently in a large database could be interesting (and the metadata and geometry should help with that, right?)
15:41 < kanzure> yes geometry match search stuff is one use. there was actually someone doing that in the literature once
15:42 < kanzure> basically his method was to break up a model into a mesh and then into a skeleton-type-model-thing called a ceeb graph
15:42 < kanzure> ceeb graph? something like that.
15:42 < kanzure> and then some graph similarity matching algorithms on the ceeb graphs or skeleton graphs of the models
15:43 < kanzure> reeb graphs. that's it.
15:43 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_analysis
15:43 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reeb_graph
15:44 < alfeb> sounds cool
15:44 < alfeb> and an efficient algorithm for computing them seems to exist
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15:48 < alfeb> bedtime here in Denmark. Thanks for the insight kanzure. 
15:48 < kanzure> :) any time
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15:52 < fenn> look i'm in wired (pale hairy guy in center) http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/libertarian-burning-man/?pid=17
15:54 < kanzure> isn't this the second time?
15:54 < fenn> i can't keep track
15:54 < kanzure> oh crud i forgot to send my notes to gary
15:54 < kanzure> emailafil
15:54 < fenn> oh the qs thing was in new yor times
15:54 < kanzure> *emailfail
15:55 < kanzure> what?
15:55 < fenn> qs meeting is in like 2 hours
15:55 < kanzure> heh i thought you just meant timezone because 
15:55 < kanzure> gah now you really do mean timezone stuff
15:55 < kanzure> *thought you just meant the ny timezone
15:55 < kanzure> ANYWAY
15:55 < kanzure> he wanted to do a phone interview and everything, and i don't have the materials to make it easy for him to do show-and-tell
15:55 < fenn> thomas goetz was supposed to write a qs article for wired but i never saw anything
15:57 < kanzure> fenn did you see my pm about money stuff?
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16:55 < fenn> egad.. /me just googled for 'floatopia'
16:59 < kanzure> they need to do one in the gulf near the oil
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17:46 < kanzure> kanzure@pikachu:~/local/opennurbs/python2$ python opennurbs_visualizer.py
17:46 < kanzure> Segmentation fault
17:46 < kanzure> >_<
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18:24 < kanzure> i seem to be seg faulting on gluNurbsProperty calls
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18:36 < QuantumG> see if something is expecting a pointer and you're passing in a variable.
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18:57 < kanzure> QuantumG: that was exactly what was happening actually :)
18:57 < kanzure> i was calling gluNurbs() and that's apparently either just returning a pointer or useless in general
18:57 < kanzure> it's gluNewNurbsThingy() that matters
18:58 < QuantumG> ya
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20:17 < kanzure> swig says i need to pass this: ON_GL(ON_Brep const &,GLUnurbsObj *)
20:17 < kanzure> ON_GL(an ON_Brep object, a GLUnurbs object (also tried the gluNewNurbsRenderer())) is the line in question
20:17 < kanzure> now, for other cases, like ON_GL(ON_Curve const &,GLUnurbsObj *), it works just fine using basically the same pattern
20:18 < kanzure> so i don't know why my brep object isn't being accepted (it can't be the GLUnurbsObj because that's the same in both cases)
20:18 < kanzure> it's a prefectly valid object..
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21:31 < phryk> is that glsl?
21:33 < kanzure> glsl?
21:33 < kanzure> what?
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22:25 < kanzure> todo for tomorrow is to rewrite opennurbs' ON_GL .. it doesn't seem to like it when i pass it a pointer or whatever.
22:25 < kanzure> rewriting that code is too far upstream though
22:26 < kanzure> there's some manual modifications that i've had to make to the generated _wrap.cxx file and opennurbs.py file because swig doesn't follow my %ignore directives
22:26 < kanzure> hrm.
23:31 < fenn> gordon moore (mylifebits, microsoft research director) and randal koene (minduploading.org/carboncopies.org) talked at QS
23:32 < fenn> randal has a ncurses-y unix program he uses to make todo lists and record 'tasks' that have been accomplished
23:32 < fenn> these tasks are all organized in a dependency tree, so the program can tell him what he needs to do next
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23:34 < fenn> a random entry i happened to see: Teleplace meeting with Anders, Giulio, and Tudor, 19:00 CET May 14, 200(1?)
23:35 < fenn> sorry 2010
23:36 < fenn> and numerous black inked-out "secret" lines of course
23:46 < fenn> there was a cardiologist heckler in the audience too, who made frun of seth roberts' (third speaker) butter for reaction time enhancement experiment
23:50 < fenn> randall also plugged "advancing substrate-independent minds" workshop aug 16-17 which i dont know if i'll be able to go to http://www.carboncopies.org/workshop2
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 12 00:00:17 2010