--- Log opened Fri Sep 24 00:00:18 2010
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01:29 < timschmidt> kanzure: poke
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07:23 < kanzure> hi timschmidt
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07:36 < kanzure> national instruments interview http://kn.theiet.org/magazine/issues/1014/enterprising-engineer-1014.cfm
07:37 < fenn> woo woo fixed the makerbot
07:38 < fenn> i better quit while i'm ahead
07:42 < kanzure> declare it a success and ask for venture capital
07:46 < CryptoQuick> ???
07:46 < CryptoQuick> profit
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08:08 < archels> http://www.looxcie.com/
08:09 < fenn> i need to get better at following my own advice
08:12 < CryptoQuick> fenn: did you break it
08:12 < fenn> naw, just backtracked for a half hour
08:13 < CryptoQuick> you lost an entire half hour of your life!? shoot, you could have just watched dancing with the stars
08:15 < archels> I think that would have meant the demise of countless more neurons.
08:15 < CryptoQuick> archels: most people over 30 years old will probably not understand Looxcie, much less buy it
08:15 < CryptoQuick> but those of the Facebook generation will probably see this as the mark of ascension to a higher plane of social media
08:16 < CryptoQuick> I personally think it's brilliant, and hope they'll make it better and smaller
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08:25 < archels> It's a nifty piece of engineering, but what makes it brilliant without the right augmented reality (possibly H+) software?
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08:46 < fenn> aw shit
08:47 < kanzure> so the cia has been reading fenn's brainz.. and feeding it to looxcie?
08:47 < kanzure> that's their grand plan?
08:47 < fenn> but it's all gay
08:47 < CryptoQuick> all gay, all day
08:49 < archels> CryptoQuick: ^ what makes it brilliant?
08:50 < kanzure> facial recognition + social networking
08:50 < kanzure> better hop on that bandwagon while nobody can get it to work
08:51 < CryptoQuick> archels: well, I mean, it's not like I hadn't had the idea before, and surely the rest of you all had it as well. It's brilliant in that they're actually making it.
08:52 < fenn> it's trivial
08:52 < fenn> all off the shelf technology
08:53 < kanzure> well yeah, except nobody has done it :P
08:53 < fenn> hm it's only half vga and five hours storage? that's awful
08:53 < archels> CryptoQuick: Yeah, but what applications are you envisioning?
08:55 < CryptoQuick> archels: I just want to be able to have a camera that's always getting what I'm looking at, in case something cool happens in an instant. Besides, it's always an interruption to get my phone out to get a photo of something. This would be great.
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08:55 < fenn> also their "blinking red light lets people know you're recording" doesn't violate causality
08:56 < kanzure> open hardware tech roadmap wiki http://ohroadmap.org/
08:56 < CryptoQuick> oh lame, blinking red light
08:56 < CryptoQuick> gotta take that out, or tape over it
08:56 < kanzure> "almost ready to anything" talk from open hardware summit http://www.slideshare.net/thatMITREguy/osh-summit-talkv15
08:57 < CryptoQuick> "almost ready to anything" ? did he accidentally his verb?
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08:59 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: heck if i know
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09:13 < fenn> aw man, i shoulda quit while i was ahead
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09:13 < archels> fenn: You told you so.
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09:20 < fenn> must have fried both mosfets somehow
09:20 < archels> Oh, you're doing hardware? What are you building?
09:20 < kanzure> makerbot/cupcakecnc
09:21 < fenn> i am NOT building a makerbot
09:22 < fenn> i'm sick of this shit
09:22 < fenn> it's the most awful design ever
09:22 < fenn> rawr
09:22 < fenn> it's like they tried to make it hard
09:22  * ybit howls along with fenn's rawring
09:22 < kanzure> what are you building
09:22 < archels> The new RepRap seemed to have a pretty optimised and well thought-out design maybe half a year ago.
09:22 < fenn> a mini mendel
09:22 < CryptoQuick> what's it called? huxley?
09:23 < CryptoQuick> I liked the Atlas design better
09:23 < CryptoQuick> it was... bigger :D
09:24 < fenn> need more general knowhow with heated chambers for that to matter
09:24 < kanzure> humanityplus.org is asking around for a new layout/theme (wordperss theme.. but i can convert if necessary)
09:26 < archels> fenn: Does it look like this? http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/5/59/Big_huxley.jpg
09:26 < archels> (generally speaking)
09:27 < fenn> yeah but i dunno why that's labeled huxley
09:27 < fenn> oh it was renamed? what a sucky name
09:27 < archels> Alright, that's the design I'm referring to. Do you have the hardware all set up?
09:29 < fenn> it moves around and stuff, but the electronics havent even been ordered
09:31 < fenn> who's the asshole who decided to rename something and then not fix any of the links
09:31 < CryptoQuick> I appreciated the reprapped PCBs
09:31 < CryptoQuick> http://reprap.org/wiki/File:Finished-pcbs.jpg
09:32 < fenn> every time i look at the reprap stuff i just want to cry
09:32 < kanzure> good thing you never looked at the repos :P
09:33 < fenn> i did
09:33 < fenn> it was a good start.. but that's the thing, it's always just "a good start"
09:34 < kanzure> no follow through?
09:34 < kanzure> timschmidt: ping
09:35 < fenn> why are the pololu's tilted?
09:36 < CryptoQuick> fenn: so that the fan can get better coverage over, I believe those are mosfets
09:36 < fenn> "slight angle to make it easier to get a screwdriver in to adjust their current-setting pots"
09:36 < CryptoQuick> lol
09:37 < CryptoQuick> well, shoot, I always figured it had more function than that
09:38 < CryptoQuick> but hey, being able to tune your pots is a good function also :)
09:40 < fenn> i like peer's version of the pololu electronics.. single sided, everything snaps onto the arduino
09:41 < fenn> not sure why everybody tilts them sideways like that
09:43 < fenn> er, ian england, not peer
09:49 < kanzure> "We also attempted last year to create a web-based, one-click printing architecture from a Ruby on Rails web server to an ethernet-adapted Cupcake CNC (code available at http://github.com/makeone/makeone) with limited success"
09:50 < kanzure> http://github.com/makeone/makeone
09:50 < kanzure> hm.
09:52 < fenn> mitre is making drivers for makerbot?
09:53 < kanzure> should i know mitre.org?
09:53 < kanzure> fenn: btw that was from an email just posted to om
09:53 < fenn> mitre is like cold-war era r&d
09:55 < kanzure> woops it hasn't posted yet
09:55 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/4522b1c0852007cb
09:57 < kanzure> heh we should get him to sponsor vehicleforge
09:57 < kanzure> "On July 10, 1985, mitre.org was the first .org domain name registered, and it remains in use by the company today"
09:59 < kanzure> on a related note in early january i was talking with theiman <theiman@mitre.org> 
09:59 < kanzure> about opencog
09:59 < kanzure> Thomas J. Heiman tags: ["papers", "agi", "genes", "proteins", "ai", "narrow ai", "mrna", "graphs"] 703-983-2951
10:00 < kanzure> ferrouswheel: do you know thomas?
10:01  * fenn goes home
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10:08 < JayDugger> Good afternoon, everyone.
10:12 < kanzure> hi
10:13 < kristianpaul> hey
10:14 < CryptoQuick> sup
10:19 < JayDugger> Reading back over the logs, did someone want to redevelop the old DejaView CamWear with better hardware?
10:20 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASON_%28advisory_group%29
10:22 < JayDugger> Have you read the "Tactical Nuclear Weapons in Southeast Asia?"
10:22 < archels> JayDugger: By better hardware, I hope you don't mean QVGA. ;)
10:23 < JayDugger> No, I mean an encoder that doesn't use MJPEG.
10:28 < JayDugger> If you want to recreate hardware of the early 2000s, how about an open-source Fingerworks keyboard?
10:35 < kanzure> okfn.org (open knowledge foundation) has an etherpad site thingy over here http://okfnpad.org/zcam2010
10:35 < kanzure> dunno if there's good stuff on there or not
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10:41 < fenn> JayDugger: if you can figure out how to do that with mplayer and fifo's for me that'd be great
10:42 < fenn> or maybe i parsed that wrong
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10:46 < fenn> JayDugger: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fennfoot/4997430078/ plus beagleboard and some software
10:46 < fenn> but it kinda sucks in low light
10:46 < fenn> that's from a "gooseneck webcam"
10:47 < fenn> weird how if you search for 'smallest webcam' you get a bunch of regular webcams back
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10:57 < timschmidt> kanzure:pong
10:58 < kanzure> fenn is complaining about stuff that you could probably help with
11:10 < timschmidt> orly?
11:12 < timschmidt> ah, yes, I can provide a guiding hand through the jungle that is reprap
11:12 < timschmidt> my mendel(s) are reproducing rapidly
11:14 < timschmidt> and I agree wholeheartedly about the repos
11:14 < timschmidt> it's a culture problem
11:14 < timschmidt> The lead folks in the project are not developers
11:14 < timschmidt> and don't care for development
11:14 < timschmidt> and it shows
11:15 < kanzure> timschmidt: so let's fork it
11:15 < timschmidt> fortunately, reprap-dev mailing list is now open to the public
11:16 < timschmidt> So we just need more participation
11:16 < timschmidt> more sane voices
11:16 < kanzure> i was very surprised to see submodules (subcomponents) copied all over the place
11:16 < kanzure> it'd be like emacs including libc6 or something
11:16 < timschmidt> right
11:16 < timschmidt> ridiculous
11:16 < kanzure> but, there are some open questions as to how to actually do 'er right
11:17 < kanzure> would you just put some notes in a documentation file saying "see this other project here for your extruder"
11:17 < kanzure> (and then make the extruder project a dependency or something)
11:18 < timschmidt> No, I think extruders can be included...  I'd do that for electronics though
11:18 < timschmidt> and I'd lump electronics and firmware into the same repo
11:19 < kanzure> firmware can change though
11:19 < kanzure> i mean, uh
11:19 < timschmidt> sure, but when hardware changes, firmware often has to change with it
11:19 < kanzure> isn't the idea that you have a stable release of the electronics, and then the firmware can be developed for that version
11:19 < kanzure> and the firmware can be developed for whatever later revisions of the electronics too
11:19 < timschmidt> well that would be nice
11:20 < kanzure> it just makes sense to me..
11:20 < kanzure> i guess it depends on the cycle
11:20 < kanzure> development cycle i mean
11:20 < kanzure> do we have people still using ancient electronics :P
11:20 < kanzure> or do people regularly build the new stuff
11:20 < timschmidt> right now, much of the core dev team is opposed to the concept of versioned releases
11:20 < timschmidt> insanity
11:20 < kanzure> (also setting up a proper deprecation schedule would be hawt)
11:20 < kanzure> well think about it
11:21 < kanzure> even if they weren't against it, how would they do it
11:21 < kanzure> technically something like this hasn't been done before in the world of open source
11:21 < timschmidt> easy enough
11:21 < timschmidt> yes it has
11:21 < kanzure> in the CAD world, you have PDM systems or whatever defining versions and releases and stuff like that
11:21 < timschmidt> I keep telling the rest of the devs this
11:21 < kanzure> in an open source project?
11:21 < kanzure> may i see
11:21 < timschmidt> "we are not special"
11:22 < kanzure> i've been craving a properly done hardware/electronics project that is properly versioned, has releases, separated repos, deprecation schedules, etc.
11:22 < kanzure> so if you have a link :D
11:22 < timschmidt> We have 95% of the cad work in OpenSCAD (and I'm excited about lolcad BTW), so that's just software, that's easy to diff and merge, and release stable versions of
11:22 < kanzure> lolcad
11:22 < kanzure> so anyway.. can you show me a community around an open source hardware project that meets those criteria
11:22 < kanzure> because i really do think this is new, in terms of open source hardware
11:23 < timschmidt> yeah, I think so
11:23 < kanzure> and these guys aren't professional engineers so they don't have experience in the field with "how it feels when it works right"
11:23 < kanzure> to be blunt, adrian is a scholar and they tend to slap up stuff that "works" and be done with it
11:23 < timschmidt> I'm not sure about deprecation schedules, but proper versioning, sure
11:23 < kanzure> liiinks
11:23 < timschmidt> Agreed
11:24  * timschmidt is thinking
11:24 < kanzure> anyway.. uh
11:24 < JayDugger> Fenn: I'll look through the logs and check out your photostream before I ask any (possibly foolish) questions.
11:25 < kanzure> re: lolcad, i was working on a visualization front-end for it
11:25 < timschmidt> excellent
11:25 < kanzure> but then i remembered i suck at opengl/gui interfacing, so i just left that dangling
11:25 < kanzure> it can visualize simple nurb objects, but it's not related to the STEP exporting (which is the primary function)
11:25 < timschmidt> One of the things I don't want to leave behind with OpenSCAD is the quick and easy workflow
11:25 < kanzure> well, the lolcad workflow is: open up a python interpreter, type out spheres and cubes and other wacky shit, and see it in an opengl portview
11:26 < kanzure> then type step_export(my_model, "filename.stp")
11:26 < timschmidt> that's fine
11:26 < kanzure> (or just save the .py script, blah blah blah)
11:26 < timschmidt> right
11:26 < kanzure> i am not sure if i should do my own tessellation algorithm or use something that tessellates STEP models
11:26 < kanzure> or just let the end users figure out how they want to convert it to STL
11:27 < timschmidt> I don't mind that the editor is separate (in fact, it's an advantage)...  but having a 3D view of the part that is easy to periodically refresh is critical
11:27 < kanzure> it refreshes immediately on each change
11:27 < kanzure> (since it's an interactive interpreter)
11:27 < kanzure> git://diyhpl.us/lolcad.git
11:27 < kanzure> granted, the interactive demo isn't working yet :P so don't go looking for it
11:27 < timschmidt> I would like it to have at least a simple tesselation algo built in.  It doesn't have to be anywhere near perfect (see: OpenSCAD), but something that lets me get a 'good enough' STL without having to fire up Blender would be nice
11:28 < kanzure> one option for that is to include a pythonOCC script, but OCC is a huuuge dependency
11:28 < kanzure> i should just roll my own
11:29 < timschmidt> brb
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11:29 < kanzure> gah don't you kids know how to .. well, not /quit?
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11:30 < timschmidt> I'm excited to be able to include any python module in a script, etc.
11:30 < timschmidt> infinite more power than OpenSCAD
11:31 < kanzure> sympy :)
11:31 < kanzure> also you don't have to do weird tricks just to get a variable or conditional statement
11:31 < kanzure> (wtf)
11:31 < timschmidt> right
11:32 < timschmidt> There's been some discussion about possibly going this route with future OpenSCAD on the mailing list...  have you posted about your code there?
11:32 < kanzure> so my todo list is (1) visualizer, (2) testing of the STEP exporter (standards compliance and whatnot), (3) simple tessellator, (4) more advanced surface manipulation routines (like blends, chamfers, stuff)
11:32 < kanzure> huh i'm subscribed to the openscad list but i haven't seen those discussions
11:40 < timschmidt> nothing major, just some talk about whether or not to switch to an existing language (python was mentioned) or stick it out with the current interpreter
11:55 < JayDugger> Ah, log reading reminds me.
11:56 < JayDugger> Two Stuxnet-related papers get delivered on 29 September at a conference in B.C.. One from Microsoft, and the other from the German fellow behind the analysis driving the speculation about Stuxnet-as-weapon.
11:59 < JayDugger> kanzure, do you yet want people to review the Gada prize guidelines?
12:00 < kanzure> JayDugger: yeah it hasn't been finalized yet so if you have comments, they can be incorporated
12:06 < kanzure> "an open book about open hardware" what? http://www.smarttypes.org/
12:07 < kanzure> and "the book" is just a google doc with a few words written:
12:07 < kanzure> https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1crMdQujoureFv56-k5XABM2ANPxwnBkrERNgMchmZ5o&hl=en&pli=1#
12:11 < kanzure> heh:
12:11 < kanzure> http://www.openhardwaresummit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50
12:11 < kanzure> "During the conference discussion of the open hw definition with its many points of contention, I was left wondering if starting by writing the criterea for licenses is going about things backwards."
12:11 < kanzure> "Would it perhaps be better to approach the problem by drafting some prototype licenses of different flavors, trying them out (thought experiment or small projects) and only then writing the open hw definition based on lessons learned?"
12:11 < kanzure> "Essentially, after the point was repeatedly made that open source hardware is about the unexpected applications a community will invent in contrast to the limited visions of top down design, in a way starting with a qualifications standards for licenses has an ironic bit of top down ring to it."
12:12 < JayDugger> A sudden attack of sense, that.
12:24 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/stl2
12:24 < kanzure> "The STL 2.0 group is an ASTM-driven consortium interested in defining a new Additive-Manufacturing file format. The new format is to replace the current de-facto standard STL file format. This email group is open to anyone interested in shaping this specification."
12:25 < kanzure> haha hod lipson is the top poster
12:25 < kanzure> figures
12:26 < kanzure> woo! just got the greenlight on finalizing the gada prize doc
12:26 < kanzure> JayDugger: so ideally if you have serious concerns about the proposal in the document, now would be a good time to tell me :P
12:26 < JayDugger> Almost done editing.
12:28 < JayDugger> I keep wanting to rewrite it in E-Prime, but that's a personal quirk. I won't. :)
12:28 < JayDugger> If Google Docs wasn't so damned flaky, this would go faster...
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12:32 < kanzure> stl2 survey http://www.mae.cornell.edu/lipson/stl2.htm
12:35 < JayDugger> Have you considered talking with the X-Prize foundation for publicity?
12:35 < JayDugger> Sorry...context-deficient comment. 
12:35 < JayDugger> kanzure, have you or anyone at H+ considered asking X-Prize foundation to publicize the Gada Prize?
12:37 < JayDugger> kanzure, do you know if anyone called Foresight Institute and asked about consulting done to establish the current prize criteria?
12:37 < JayDugger> Okay, so other than running diction and style over the text, I'm done.
12:38 < JayDugger> For future reference, almost done means "eleven more minutes." :)
12:40 < kanzure> peter diamandis (founder of the x-prize) is president of singularity university
12:41 < kanzure> there was consulting done by foresight institute for the prize criteria with the reprap core team devz
12:41 < JayDugger> That's fine. So long as it satisfies you.
12:42 < JayDugger> Awesome! Sigma-Aldrich sells "Cyanobacteria BG-11 Freshwater Solution."
12:43 < epitron> oh dear
12:44 < JayDugger> At $80/L, it remains cheaper to buy the end result.
12:44 < kanzure> alessandro delfanti sez: "i just moved to LA to study citizen science with chris kelty at UCLA"
12:44 < kanzure> didn't know chris was looking for pupils :P
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13:01 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone. Time for bed.
13:02 < kanzure> night
13:02 < kanzure> thanks for the comments
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13:45 < Utopiah> kanzure: on the perception of time http://www.eaglemanlab.net/time/our-experimental-questions
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13:56 < kanzure> updated http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/hplusgada.pdf
14:03 < kanzure> Utopiah: thank you :)
14:03 < Utopiah> np
14:05 < kanzure> "For example, a subject might move the mouse to the right, and 150 msec later, the movement registers on screen. Our findings show two striking results: first, participants playing the game quickly come to feel as though there is less delay between their mouse movement
14:05 < kanzure> and the sensory feedback, and second, when we suddenly remove the delay, it feels as though the effect on the screen happened just before they commanded it."
14:05 < kanzure> Motor-sensory recalibration leads to an illusory reversal of action and sensation http://www.eaglemanlab.net/papers/StetsonetalNeuron2006.pdf
14:06 < kanzure> "Many people report that time appears to run in slow motion when they find themselves in an impending car accident -- for example, sliding toward a bad situation."
14:06 < kanzure> what??
14:06 < kanzure> "Crudely speaking, are neural 'snapshots' clicking faster during a high-adrenaline situation? To bring this into the realm of scientific study, we have measured time perception during free-fall by strapping palm-top computers to their wrists and having them perform psychophysical experiments as they fall."
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15:05 < kanzure> hm megan is todd's "assistant"
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15:48 < kanzure> i really don't know what's going on here
15:48 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatsune_Miku
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15:57 < kanzure> http://www.zero-g.co.uk/media/images/vocaloid_screenshot.jpg i guess that explains it
16:09 < jrayhawk> When climbing a tree as a child, a branch broke from under me and I was able to assess several potential courses of action in fall that followed in what seemed like slow motion.
16:09 < jrayhawk> It was *very* fast onset, though. Not sure if adrenaline would be able to do that.
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16:41 < kanzure> more biocurious stuff http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-biohackers-aim-open-silicon-valley-lab-group-research-/2010/09/23/5025995.htm
16:41 < kanzure> http://www.contracostatimes.com/education/ci_16158410
16:41 < kanzure> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/a-new-social-contract-for-open-science/2010/09/24
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17:23 < kanzure> research areas of mad scientists 1810-2010 http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2010/09/madsci-decades2.jpg
17:24 < kanzure> http://io9.com/5646481/the-chosen-research-areas-of-mad-scientists-1810+2010
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18:21 < kanzure> guy kills himself in front of his harvard class and leaves a 2000 page suicide note.. uh, book
18:21 < kanzure> http://www.suicidenote.info/
18:23 < Utopiah> hardcore marketing
18:25 < uniqanomaly> impressive, in a weird fashion
18:27 < uniqanomaly> waiting for copycat suicides
18:29 < kanzure> well, it is copyleft :P
18:31 < uniqanomaly> The Seditious Genius of the Spiritual Penis of Jesus
18:32 < uniqanomaly> sounds great, I think I'll start from this
18:36 < kanzure> haha he cites james hughes
18:38 < kanzure> i like his analysis of hughes :)
18:41 < kanzure> "For this reason, Hughes suggested that the government subsidize eugenic programs for the lower and middle class"
18:41 < epitron> mitchell heisman looks like an asshole
18:43 < kanzure> everyone at harvard does
18:46 < Utopiah> now that was diplomatic ;)
18:47 < kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1704180 "the transient phosphorylation of PGAM1 is a mechanism by which PEP is converted to pyruvate at a meaningful rate"
19:18 < joshcryer> kanzure, I was just reading that guys suicide note, hilarious stuff.
19:19 < joshcryer> Did a word count on it, it's only around 500k words, so the "1900 page" thing is kinda misleading.
19:21 < joshcryer> Yet another anti-technology screed, only this guy, uh, did us all a favor.
19:21 < epitron> also he didn't go to harvard
19:21 < epitron> and killed himself outside the building
19:24 < joshcryer> He didn't?
19:26 < joshcryer> Ahh, he didn't go to Harvard, got ya. Misread.
19:29 < kanzure> the james hughes stuff is on page 1688, 1690, 1693-1698
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20:01 < kanzure> livelong@stanleyknutson.com
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21:58 < JayDugger> Why the Norman Conquest was the World-Historical Ass-Kicking that  Deflected the English-speaking World from the German Path to Nazism
21:58 < JayDugger> The suicide note has good taglines.
22:01 < JayDugger> Vocaloid's interestinglll
22:12 < kanzure> i just don't get them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JGaQ3g8WU4
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22:17 < JayDugger> I think it would impress me more if I listened to music with lyrics.
22:17 < JayDugger> Good morning, Phreedom.
22:19 < Phreedom> hi :)
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 25 00:00:17 2010