--- Log opened Sun Oct 03 00:00:18 2010
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02:20 < Utopiah> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/02/google_instant_keyboard_navigation/
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05:06 < kanzure> erik de bruijn's thesis on open source for physical objects
05:06 < kanzure> http://thesis.erikdebruijn.nl/master/thesis-manuscript.pdf
05:09 < kanzure> hmm for a review of reprap collaboration it fails to even bring up svn
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05:11 < fenn> i think it's a humanities paper
05:12 < kanzure> i think robert freitas is the only one who takes himself seriously
05:12 < kanzure> in terms of "gee i guess i should put some thought into this"
05:16 < fenn> i wonder if this means erik is now free to actually fix some problems in the mini mendel design
05:19 < fenn> 5,000 - 15,000 repraps in existence? yeah right
05:21 < fenn> hah, Exponential Growth(tm)!
05:31 < fenn> hm there's a half hour i'll never get back
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06:22 < Utopiah> http://www.davinciinstitute.com/speakers/futurist-speaker-thomas-frey/
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09:46 < kanzure> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/09/interview_with_melanie_swan_of_diyg.html
09:57 < uniqanomaly_> hereditary susceptibility of conditions is so much overrated ...
09:58 < uniqanomaly_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCnlHXGAJVE this is right stuff to start education i believe
10:04 < archels> Is that someone eating at around 4:00?
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10:09 < phryk> yes
10:22 < archels> phryk: oh delicious irony.
10:24 < phryk> heh
10:31 < phryk> wahaha
10:31 < phryk> munich has the highest depression rate? :D
10:31 < phryk> here in germany everybody is talking about how great the standard of living is in munich ^^;
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11:00 < kanzure> updated: http://bit.ly/diybionews
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11:15 < kanzure> i have a few documents to write today, and i'll take any advice i can get :)
11:15 < kanzure> i'm writing (1) an announcement for humanity+ about the gada prize, (2) possibly the blog post for reprap.og about this
11:15 < kanzure> and (3) the content for humanityplus.org/gadaprize which might be a direct copy of http://www.foresight.org/gadaprize.php
11:15 < kanzure> for #3 i'm not so sure that copying it word-for-word is justified
11:16 < kanzure> there's a lot of rhetoric going on there
11:16 < kanzure> i'm not anti-rhetoric but the presentation can maybe be improved?
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11:27 < fenn> it ends kinda weak, listing various prizes throughout history
11:29 < fenn> "this stage of human upliftment has become a chasm that many nations are finding difficult to cross."  i see what you mean about rhetoric
11:29 < fenn> i dont see what literacy has to do with it either
11:30 < fenn> i would just get rid of the first and last sentences in the first paragraph under personal manufacturing prize
11:31 < fenn> also the 90% by volume printed parts is stupid
11:32 < fenn> print bed not figured into cost of printer is likewise stupid
11:33 < fenn> insure -> ensure
11:34 < fenn> "ability to print electronic circuit boards" is ambiguous - does that mean laying down a mask on copper, or laying down metallic traces?
11:35 < fenn> i dont really get the rationale for < 60W electrical power, but maybe he had some reason
11:36 < fenn> "Only 10% of the time is used for actual printing." is just wrong
11:43 < kanzure> fenn: thank you. also, i lag
11:44 < kanzure> so, we do have a little leeway in changing requirements of the prize (the 90% by volume thing in particular)
11:45 < kanzure> "Well, I kind of like that they are putting the problems in a broad perspective because it seems like something everyone can relate to."
11:45 < kanzure> " But I agree that it'd probably be better to tone down the "whoever makes this will be the sole cause of the economic development of all third world nations" feeling it gives you. d:"
11:50 < kanzure> "By the gods of thunder and the keepers of the cosmic gate, the Gada prize will uplift one billion people by 2020 for under one million dollars or my name isn't Thor. I HAVE.. THE POWER!"
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11:52 < kanzure> wb tom_ 
11:53 < kanzure> fenn: "90% by volume printed parts" doesn't that encourage hollow parts
11:53 < tom_> Hey kanzure
11:54 < kanzure> fenn: the pcb requirement is also pretty vague
11:54 < kanzure> so, i asked them about these issues since some people in #reprap brought up the same concerns
11:54 < kanzure> and they said that instead of being more specific, to just rely on the judges (adrian, erik, forrest, vik, etc.)
11:55 < kanzure> "in order to insure that items daily utility can be printed." insure->ensure but also there's a missing article or something
12:00 < fenn> items of daily utility
12:02 < kanzure> tom_ decided that he wanted to make his own revision http://piratepad.net/AKhwUOok2T
12:03 < kanzure>  tom_: gada is setting up a series of K-prizes
12:03 < tom_> kanzure: Right... is only the first being transfered to us?
12:04 < kanzure> yes
12:04 < kanzure> imho i don't think that editing the document and wittling it down is an effective strategy
12:04 < kanzure> i suggest waiting for me to rewrite it
12:06 < tom_> I apologize because I know you aren't like this, but I generally have problems with waiting on anyone to do anything, because typically they take two weeks to do something that takes two hours...
12:06 < kanzure> can you just go get me the passwords instead
12:07 < tom_> Which passwords?
12:07 < kanzure> ssh passwords that aren't working for humanityplus.org
12:07 < tom_> I don't have other passwords, you'll have to email David/William
12:09 < tom_> I don't see why you don't want to work off of the PiratePad version
12:09 < tom_> If there are any edits/changes/additions you want to make, just make them
12:09 < kanzure> how about i just delete the whole document
12:10 < tom_> And if it's on PiratePad it will be easy for Christine etc. to make edits when they feel like doing so
12:12 < kanzure> if you have a vision for a document, having you edit it in real time is really counter productive.
12:12 < tom_> If you want to write your own document from scratch, I certainly have no problem with that, but how long do you think that will take?
12:13 < kanzure> well i probably would have been done by now
12:13 < tom_> OK, so can you send it to the Board and Christine tonight?
12:13 < kanzure> that's the plan..
12:13 < tom_> OK, awesome, thanks
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12:32 < kanzure> fenn: i need an accurate one line description of reprap :P
12:32 < kanzure> reprap.org says "A low cost open source rapid prototyping system that is capable of producing its own parts and can therefore be replicated easily"
12:32 < kanzure> but it can't really be replicated easily
12:32 < kanzure> wikipedia says: "The RepRap project, short for "replicating rapid prototyper", is an initiative to develop a 3D printer that can print most of its own components. All of the designs produced by the project are released under an open-source license.
12:32 < kanzure> It is self-replication that distinguishes the RepRap Project from the similar open-source Fab@Home or CupCake MakerBot projects.[citation needed]"
12:33 < kanzure> reprap.org says: "RepRap is a free desktop 3D printer capable of printing plastic objects. Since many parts of RepRap are made from plastic and RepRap can print those parts, RepRap is a self-replicating machine - one that anyone can build given time and materials."
12:33 < kanzure> i guess the second reprap.org definition is more reasonable
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13:41 < kanzure> uh, so, some of the open source hardware stuff is ambiguous
13:41 < kanzure> "Given the open-source nature of the RepRap community, the winning entry for the interim prize will have its technology published for the RepRap community to use.
13:41 < kanzure> "Participating teams are expected to regularly publish and make available their technology on an ongoing basis. All technology developed by participating teams becomes open source under a GPL or BSD license."
13:41 < kanzure> "Therefore, the winning team will have to have published at least some of their innovations more than 12 months before the deadline."
13:41 < kanzure> "(Note that the RepRap Project itself is licensed using the GPL, so any entry derived from that is constrained also to use the GPL. Any entry not derived from the RepRap Project can use either license.) "
13:43 < kanzure> man sometimes it feels like these sentences are written by different people
13:45 < kanzure> "It is expected that participating teams will borrow each others' better innovations during the development process."
13:45 < kanzure> "The committee reserves the right to apportion the Grand Prize amongst teams should such borrowed technology comprise a major portion of the winning entry."
13:45 < kanzure> demanding that they publish is an interesting tactic but i don't know if i should carry that over
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13:46 < kanzure> while the final result should be open source, i don't think that "All technology developed by participating teams becomes open sourceu nder a GPL or BSD license" really does what we want it to do
13:53 < kanzure> and what's with the 12mo thing? it's like telling an open source developer that they have to publish their open source code before they commit :P
13:55 < kanzure> maybe this would be better: all entries irrevocably assign all copyrights and intellectual property rights to the RepRap Research Foundation, with the understanding that it will be an open source hardware project, GPL/BSD goodness
14:00 < uniqanomaly_> LOL
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14:17 < kanzure> current version: http://piratepad.net/AKhwUOok2T
14:19 < fenn> i think the 12 month thing was so that people wouldnt hide all their innovation and then release everything right before they finish
14:20 < fenn> this is a symptom of the fact that prizes and collaboration don't work together
14:20 < fenn> don't use the phrase intellectual property, please
14:20 < kanzure> okay
14:21 < fenn> i think they ought to be able to keep whatever trademark, for example
14:21 < kanzure> "you can assign the project to the.." instead?
14:21 < kanzure> who should be able to keep the trademark?
14:21 < fenn> copyright and patent is enough
14:21 < fenn> the people who registered the trademark
14:21 < kanzure> ok so someone can submit a project that might have their own trademark. yeah that sounds fine to me
14:22 < kanzure> btw the 12 month thing was for the grand prize, not the interim prize, soo technically i can avoid it
14:24  * fenn is virtually reconstructing a broken vase
14:24 < kanzure> try git --rebase
14:26 < fenn> new project: scan anything that looks potentially sentimental to anybody
14:30 < kanzure> is fenn bored
14:31 < fenn> procrastinating
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14:37 < kanzure> fenn: what's wrong with a team that hides innovation until they submit?
14:41 < fenn> duplicated effort
14:41 < fenn> the goal is to get the best machine possible in the fastest time with the least amount of money input
14:42 < fenn> presumably if there were no prize, the people working on their stuff would have been collaborating (and presumably this would result in more progress than not collaborating)
14:47 < kanzure> so how does this work though
14:47 < kanzure> if everyone is a part of every team, where does the money go
14:48 < fenn> let's say makerbot develops the conveyor belt platform, and joebob develops the solder extruder.. you then subjectively split up the prize by how much each team contributed :\
14:48 < QuantumG> the way the X-Prizes tends to work is they pull all the entrepreneurs out of working on their own little niches and focus them on a common goal.
14:49 < fenn> yeah but x-prize people were all working on different designs
14:49 < kanzure> fenn: yeah but if they are all being published and committed, can't just anyone commit and say "look! i deserve x% of the money because i committed"
14:49 < fenn> kanzure: yeah, and i'm not sure i see anything wrong with that, besides splitting up a chunk of money into little chunks
14:49 < kanzure> for instance, sebastien bailard is a team member of like all of the projects
14:50 < kanzure> (of all of the teams listed on the reprap.org wiki for the gada prize)
14:50 < fenn> money and open source don't really mix
14:50 < kanzure> http://reprap.org/wiki/Gada_Prize
14:50 < kanzure> wasn't "open source" the business-branch of free software
14:50 < fenn> honestly i think the gada prize would have been better spent by hiring an out of work architect or something
14:51 < fenn> a brazilian
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14:51 < kanzure> heh
14:51 < fenn> ask christine peterson :P
14:51 < kanzure> wtf @ "While you may have personal blogs and other spaces where you enjoy working on RepRap-related research and development, please use the RepRap website for your Gada Prize entries,"
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14:52 < kanzure> "Most importantly, note that competition entries have to tell what they are doing while they are doing it; to quote from the rules: "Participating teams are expected to regularly publish and make available their technology on an ongoing basis." These wiki pages are your lab notebooks, only fun."
14:53 < fenn> hey who says lab notebook aren't fun
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14:57 < kanzure> it's a little weird about requiring everything to be posted on that wiki
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15:00 < fenn> i dont thin kso
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15:01 < fenn> who would integrate it otherwise?
15:01 < kanzure> the framing is all wrong.. i think they meant it to be more like "you are a developer on reprap.org, the reprap.org core team will judge your contributions towards these goals and award the money"
15:02 < fenn> that would be more like a bounty than a prize
15:02 < kanzure> this feels like a bounty ;)
15:02 < fenn> i dont see anything wrong with a bounty, it just doesn't inflate kartik m. gada's ego as much
15:03 < fenn> and actually fits the real world style of development that happens
15:03 < kanzure> you mean the Kartik M. Gada Humanitarian Innovation Prize in Personal Manufacturing
15:03 < kanzure> heh
15:03 < fenn> "humanitarian"
15:03 < kanzure> "bryan bishop, humanitarian"
15:03 < fenn> he survives on a diet solely consisting of humans
15:04 < kanzure> well, he /is/ in the real estate biz
15:14 < kanzure> (subtext: rent is soul-less)
15:34  * kanzure goes back to lolcad
15:35 < kanzure> if i'm making a sketch and have a poyline([A, B, C, D]) and a cirlce in the middle of the rectangle ABCD how should lolcad figure out whether the hole is the negative space or not
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16:07 < kanzure> hm what happened to http://www.civilizationfromscratch.org/blog/
16:07 < kanzure> tom owad?
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16:23 < kanzure> okay, i fixed my "how does it know if it is negative space or not"
16:23 < kanzure> starting from left to right, the first edge's left is empty space, the right is solid; then, the 2nd level deep is solid, the 3rd is empty, etc.
16:24 < kanzure> especially since all shapes must be closed
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16:31 < fenn> why are you solving that problem
16:32 < fenn> i remember somebody doing this exact same problem with heekscad
16:41 < kanzure> because when you extrude you have to know which stuff to extrude
16:42 < kanzure> what is alexis madrigal doing on slashdot? http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/10/03/1424223/Rube-Goldberg-and-the-Electrification-of-America or why do i know the name
16:59 < kanzure> socal-diybio wiki http://www.omegahelm.com/diybio/ and in the future http://diybio.omegahelm.com/
17:04 < fenn> grr.. lead time of "a few months"
17:09 < kanzure> ?
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17:20 < kanzure> fenn: could i possibly convince you to help out with lolcad architecture design stuff
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17:34 < kanzure> this sounds useful but i can't be bothered to register http://www.wheeloyum.com/WhereToEatLunch.php
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18:24 < fenn> write your own
18:24 < fenn> hopefully you dont get sued for violating a software patent
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19:54 < kanzure> john griessen thinking up some diybio microfluidic valve stuff http://ecosensory.com/diybio/flow-diff-pump-1.jpg
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20:58 < CryptoQuick> kanzure: I've often thought that microfluidics and stuff like digital bubble logic would be super sweet for making a computer that people could just print out and power using water. kinda like the oldschool Amiga systems.
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21:00 < CryptoQuick> well, erm, you know, like the first microcomputers
21:00 < CryptoQuick> amiga wasn't one of the first, apparently
21:01 < kanzure> did you read my microfluidics thread?
21:04 < CryptoQuick> oh, nah, I can look it up
21:06 < CryptoQuick> I don't see anything mentioning microfluidics in what I have of the OM mailing list ... :T
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21:26 < kanzure> CryptoQuick: actually, diybio list
21:26 < CryptoQuick> awh. :T
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22:18 < CryptoQuick> http://hackaday.com/2010/10/02/decoding-mp3-in-python/
22:18 < CryptoQuick> SOMEONE PLZ PORT THIS TO JAVASCRIPT
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22:54 < CryptoQuick> night folks
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 04 00:00:17 2010