--- Log opened Sat Nov 06 00:00:07 2010
00:00 < JayDugger> Allegedly one unit will simultaneously track two bodies, but I didn't test that.
00:05 < JayDugger> It doesn't track fingers, at least in the game I played.
00:06 < JayDugger> I expected to move the cursor over a tool, and then to close my fist for "activate." I had to hold the cursor position for almost a second to activate the control.
00:07 < JayDugger> The lack of tactile feedback distracted me.
00:07 < JayDugger> If your avatar touched something on screen, you could only see it.
00:09 < JayDugger> If you reached up to make the avatar grab an overhead item, you only felt the stretch and had to watch the screen to see whether your motion successfully controlled the avatar.
00:10 < JayDugger> If you jumped to make the avatar clear a hurdle, you had to watch the screen to see if the action worked.
00:10 < JayDugger> You felt your feet strike the floor before the avatar returned to the ground plane.
00:10 < JayDugger> I found this distracting, but my girlfriend had no such problems.
00:11 < JayDugger> I.e., she had higher scores two out of three times. 
00:12 < JayDugger> The product would improve greatly with wireless rings and anklets that vibrated when the avatar's extremities struck in-game objects.
00:17 < JayDugger> There exists only one game, "Kinectimals," that uses a non-anthropomorphic avatar.
00:19 < JayDugger> I can't think of many uses for it beyond exercise, ergonomic studies, and video gaming. Teleoperation doesn't seem so useful.
00:20 < JayDugger> If you recorded a human's motion path, perhaps you could use it to train other people to follow that motion path. Automated choreography, so to speak.
00:20 < JayDugger> That could find use in performance arts, sports, physical therapy, and time-motion analysis.
00:21 < JayDugger> I've often sworn at mechanical engineers who mistake CAD diagrams for the real-world. This gets revealed by physical layout of objects that efficiently use available volume while completely ignoring the presence of a human body in the same space. 
00:23 < JayDugger> E.g., screws that will just come out of socket without striking a nearby fixture only if you have a hand and a tool of infinitesimal depth. 
00:24 < JayDugger> Perhaps a way to test avatar position in a virtual space would identify these problems. The rings or anklets would vibrate when your extremities intersect objects.
00:25 < JayDugger> Unfortunately, I've no video of the demo unit I played with. I left my phone in the car. :(
00:25 < JayDugger> Finished with babbling. If anyone has ideas on reverse engineering, see Adafruit for US$2000.
00:26 < JayDugger> If you've uses, please speak up. 
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00:40 < JayDugger> http://www.ifixit.com/blog/blog/2010/11/05/kinect-teardown-video/
00:40 < JayDugger> http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft-Kinect-Teardown/4066/1
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04:07 < JayDugger> fenn: "i thought the americans still actually made stuff for their military" Oh yes, and exports to almost everyone else.
04:11 < QuantumG> depends on what stuff
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04:30 < JayDugger> F-35
04:30 < JayDugger> C-17
04:30 < JayDugger> Tomahawks
04:31 < JayDugger> Trident ballistic missles
04:31 < JayDugger> Patriot ABMs
04:31 < JayDugger> AEGIS radar sets
04:31 < JayDugger> Destroyers
04:31 < JayDugger> Shall I continue?
04:32 < JayDugger> American small arms have less of an export market, I admit.
04:33 < JayDugger> I do exaggerate with the "almost everyone else" remark.
04:36 < JayDugger> And all pretty far off-topic.
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08:59 < kanzure> http://fabbaloo.com/blog/2010/11/6/openscad.html
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09:30 < kanzure> hi t_siamendes 
09:30 < t_siamendes> hi
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09:42 < kanzure> t_siamendes: what's up? what brings you here?
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09:46 < t_siamendes> kanzure, saw a link to your website from a post on the wta-talk@transhumanist mail group so was checking it out and came across this server via there
09:46 < t_siamendes> i replied to your post about the imbedded microchip but think its awaiting moderation
09:47 < kanzure> damn moderators!
09:47 < kanzure> oops. turns out i'm the wta-talk admin
09:48 < t_siamendes> lol
09:48 < kanzure> uh let me go fix that
09:48 < kanzure> Michael P <mjpanne@hotmail.com> ?
09:48 < t_siamendes> yeah
09:49 < kanzure> ok done
09:49 < t_siamendes> cheers 
09:51 < kanzure> t_siamendes: anyway, welcome :)
09:51 < t_siamendes> thanks
10:02 < kanzure> can anyone identify these people by name? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/tenth-seminar-transhumanism.jpg
10:03 < kanzure> i see anna salamon (4th from the bottom-right) but that's it :(
10:04 < t_siamendes> the mineral water would suggest the photo was likely taken in israel
10:04 < t_siamendes> thou i suppose you can buy imported water in the US
10:05 < kanzure> someone in there is joshua fox, sergio stein, ilia stambler
10:05 < kanzure> t_siamendes: yes it was israel
10:05 < kanzure> these people might be in the photo: Shanee Nishry, Adi Berman, Frida Fuchs, Danny Belkin, Tal Galili, Shanee Nishry
10:06 < kanzure> oops, i repeated shanee twice
10:09 < kanzure> oh i guess it's obvious because of the hebrew markings on the water bottles :)
10:12 < t_siamendes> and the chips
10:15 < t_siamendes> + can work out who people are from here
10:15 < t_siamendes> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20057651632&v=wall
10:16 < t_siamendes> thou you'll have to join i think before it will show people that have tagged themselves in the photos
10:16 < t_siamendes> if indeed they have
10:17 < kanzure> only one person is tagged in that photo
10:19 < t_siamendes> cross reference the image against the members list/friends liked to those members
10:20 < t_siamendes> software should really do this automatically, and then embed it in the requesting persons memory so it seems like its recalled information, sort of like loooking at the photo and immediately knowing a bio on each person in your mind without having to research it
10:21 < t_siamendes> the second you think about it, the process is already tasked and completed without having to go through a tedious process of cross reference
10:31 < kanzure> t_siamendes: i know too many people
10:31 < kanzure> so my attempt at solving this is http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/meetlog.txt
10:31 < kanzure> it's not quite the same thing as an instant farley file on the people i interact with
10:31 < kanzure> but it's an approach worth considering, if you have this problem too
10:33 < Utopiah> stuff I organized on that http://fabien.benetou.fr/Person/Person so far using a personal list of profiles on an internal wiki and logs or IRC/IM/SMS/Email to search in
10:34 < t_siamendes> i tend to use my htc desire as a forerunner to a true 4g communicator for keeping track
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11:21 < kanzure> there's a course on "ethics"-in-diybio at emory.. course description says something about "biopiracy"
11:21 < kanzure> :/
11:21 < kanzure> http://www.ethics.emory.edu/Events/PDFs/Spring%202011%20courses.pdf
11:22 < Utopiah> ex1: write HARRRRR with ATGC
11:22 < kanzure> DNA polymerase: the new biopiracy threat?
11:23 < kanzure> hm i wonder if i could make DNA pol 3 require a "license key" molecule (this is meant to be a joke)
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13:00 < kanzure> what is the "Human Development Index"?
13:15 < t_siamendes> until you mentioned it there, i thought it was another name for the kardashev scale
13:16 < t_siamendes> but it seems it more of a index used to rank countries in terms of their level of health,education,etc in the present
13:18 < t_siamendes> i think it is simply a model used to determine whether a country is first world, developing or third world, but with more PC brackets such as 'low developed' as opposed to the emotive 'third world'...
13:19 < t_siamendes> hopefully it'll be redundant asap and everywhere will be highly developed
13:19 < kanzure> hrm where did my list of human enhancement metrics go
13:20 < kanzure> a "human enhancement index" would be more interesting
13:20 < kanzure> i.e. hearing ranges, eyesight, other sensory datapoints; but also physical exertion or other interesting indicators
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13:24 < fenn> it turns out eating half a stick of butter actually improves my reaction time on simple math problems by 40%
13:24 < fenn> er, 30%
13:28 < kanzure> by "eat" you don't mean.. uh.
13:29 < fenn> on a potato, or a grilled cheese sandwich
13:29 < fenn> oh, small stick of butter, 4 tbsp
13:30 < fenn> i dont know how important the quantity is
13:30 < kanzure> sometimes i've wondered if it's just an inhalant thing
13:30 < fenn> huh?
13:30 < t_siamendes> I was hoping you meant one of those tiny individual serving sized wraps of butter that arent much bigger than a domino
13:30 < kanzure> because there is this lingering smell i notice
13:30 < t_siamendes> rather than a huge block 
13:31 < t_siamendes> the size of a bar of gold 
13:31 < fenn> well, i did eat butter in the course of normal meals, and it didnt affect my score hugely
13:31 < kanzure> what are you well-ing to?
13:31 < fenn> the mere presence of butter having some effect
13:32 < kanzure> fenn: matt's over here pestering me about graphsynth shape grammars and lolcad. O_o
13:32 < fenn> "just an inhalant thing"
13:32 < fenn> yes i think that's a good combo
13:32 < kanzure> fenn: i think in meals butter is different than if you just had a lingering smell of butter stuck in your nostrils
13:32 < fenn> well do an experiment and find out
13:32 < kanzure> of course.
13:33 < kanzure> but you say you have evidence that disagrees with that?
13:33 < fenn> i dont see why the hell you would come up with such an idea, but you're free to believe whatever you like
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13:33 < jrayhawk> Yeah, anything that widens nasal air passages has a huge effect on aptitude.
13:33 < kanzure> oh come on now, i said "sometimes i wonder" 
13:33 < fenn> i don't feel any different after eating lots of butter, but the numbers are different
13:34 < jrayhawk> I seem to recall a study at one point which demonstrated that blocking one side or the other had detrimental effects to a corresponding side of the brain, which just seems all sorts of weird.
13:34 < kanzure> jrayhawk: so if you punch someone's nose out, they might go retarded until they reset their nose? :)
13:35 < t_siamendes> lol
13:35 < jrayhawk> I believe the term you're looking for is "punch drunk"
13:38 < kanzure> fenn: as for matt/shape grammars/lolcad, i don't know what's going on really
13:39 < kanzure> is there something that shape grammars can do that i'm not seeing here?
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13:43 < thesnark> hello world
13:44 < kanzure> hello world
13:44 < thesnark> Meow
13:45 < kanzure> you and ybit should hook up
13:45 < kanzure> you both have "the kink"
13:46 < thesnark> The kink?
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14:10 < kanzure> fenn: i guess you could use matt's shape grammar rules for generating valid-only 3D geometries for specific cnc machines?
14:37 < kanzure> fenn: do you have some references for matt on CAM routing algorithms
14:49 < fenn> re cam algorithms, there's http://freesteel.co.uk/ and i've read http://books.google.com/books?id=yh8eeMvVwTYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=martin+held+pocketing&source=bl&ots=of4Ub1CbGH&sig=xcEDdrlTDZ1fuVoZdo-aXz_qja8&hl=en&ei=Y83VTIbeEI-isAPnrZiNCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
14:50 < fenn> as far as algorihtms go, it's not so complex, it's just hard to figure out how to specify the rules such that the computer does what you want
14:51 < fenn> like, whether you're on the inside or the outside of a particular polygon
14:52 < fenn> anders wallin had a series of blog posts about offsetting a cutter wrt a triangle
14:52 < fenn> http://www.anderswallin.net/tag/cam/
14:54 < fenn> then there's the question of whether your feature must be machined with a particular machining operation, and what sort of surface texture you want, etc
14:55 < fenn> engineers rarely specify the actual geometrical tolerances required for a feature, under the assumption that you're going to cut that round hole with a round cutter for example
14:56 < Utopiah> http://pages.synsonix.com/technology
15:00 < fenn> "completely harmless!"
15:05 < fenn> i wonder if they've found the g-spot yet
15:07 < fenn> "hey im looking for technology that you inject nano in your head and your chest and you are able to have a digital screen display out of your eye balls and imagine how to feel and have your imagination intensify and become your sypmtomatic structure and create movies with the frequency that pile out of the electro socket of your home. now i know you can tell me where to purchase this divice. please e-mail me'
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15:55 < kanzure> http://ask.slashdot.org/story/10/11/06/1845219/Evaluating-Or-Testing-Utility-SCADA-Security
16:01 < t_siamendes> madness
16:01 < t_siamendes> are water plants really that insecure?
16:03 < kanzure> SCADA is typical windows ware
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16:03 < kanzure> and it's for an industry that nobody knows about because nobody cares about infrastructure/industrialization
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16:07 < t_siamendes> http://www.cs.louisville.edu/facilities/ISLab/tech%20papers/ISRL-TR-07-02.pdf
16:07 < t_siamendes> it seems enhancements to existing security infrastructure has been proposed
16:08 < t_siamendes> thou from the anonymous comment on the slashdot posting it would seem someone claiming to be an industry insider is saying they've ignored such proposals
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19:20 < kanzure> odd scada-related comment http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1857048&cid=34151056
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19:32 < QuantumG> is nanotechnology just modern alchemy?
19:33 < QuantumG> speculating on what could be possible if a critical component of technology was available? precise positional control of atoms as philosophical mercury.
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19:35 < QuantumG> in fact, some definitions of the philosophical mercury were exactly that but they meant 'atom' in the greek sense, which today we would think of as subatomic particles.
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20:01 < fenn> more on ultrasound brain stimulation (sorry, i know, wired sucks) http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/09/remote-control-minds/
20:15 < kanzure> fenn: matt goodman turns out to be the same person
20:15 < kanzure> should i stalk him down and say hi?
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20:18 < QuantumG> so is ultrasound brain stimulation good for anything?
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20:33 < QuantumG> looks pretty cool.. is there a diy version?
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20:42 < kanzure> QuantumG: yes
20:42 < JayDugger1> Good evening, everyone.
20:43 < JayDugger1> More Kinect-babbling...ready your /ignore macros.
20:43 < JayDugger1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvvQJxgykcU&NR=1
20:43 < JayDugger1> Apparently Kinect projects an array of various-sized dots with IR light.
20:44 < JayDugger1> I don't know whether you could use that dot array for other purposes, say making a 3d model of a room or detecting the curve of a page in an opened book.
20:46 < JayDugger1> And my public "test" http://flic.kr/p/8Rb7zG
20:46 < JayDugger1> All done with babbling.
21:16 < kanzure> hum..
21:16 < kanzure> so i was browsing around and found http://workflowy.com/
21:17 < kanzure> one of their testimonials that they include on their front page is from "Head of Web Spam, Google"
21:17 < kanzure> the other one is from Michael Katsevman, HilightCam
21:17 < kanzure> *HighlightCam
21:17 < kanzure> http://www.highlightcam.com/
21:17 < kanzure> if you guys recall, mike used to hang out in here
21:18 < kanzure> Michael Katsevman <mikek@brandeis.edu>
21:19 < QuantumG> so diy ultrasonic brain stimulation.. url?  anyone done anything interesting with it?
21:21 < kanzure> not diy-diy, but there have been some really cheap knockoffs done by some grad students
21:21 < kanzure> that ended up getting published a few times
21:21 < kanzure> the studies involved a lot of pig skin, iirc
21:24 < QuantumG> so has anyone actually, ya know, put it on their head?
21:24 < QuantumG> stimulated some area of the brain and reported the effect?
21:24 < JayDugger1> And lived to tell the tale?
21:24 < QuantumG> yeah.. are they all pussies or what?
21:26 < QuantumG> I hear there's areas of the brain which, when stimulated, cause you to involuntarily spit out swear words.. like a turrets suffer.. that'd be a pretty awesome demonstration.
21:26 < fenn> highlightcam sounds neato if it actually works as described
21:27 < kanzure> mike was working on a way to do automatic video summarization, iirc
21:27 < kanzure> what was his nick?
21:30 < kanzure> ""Maintain a total materials and parts cost under $200..." is somewhat vague to me. I (and many others) can buy lots of parts for fairly cheap and have no shipping cost. Some parts still need to be shipped. Are we to include shipping in total parts cost? If yes, how is something like free shipping with a service like Amazon prime affected?"
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21:31 < kanzure> materials shipping cost. hrm.
21:32 < kanzure> uh.
21:36 < fenn> shipping should not be factored into the cost.. it would effectively disqualify anybody in sweden from competing for example
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21:43 < kanzure> agreed
21:47 < kanzure> that comment was from a mechanical engineer in sf
21:51 < kanzure> fenn: i should start syndicating a blog with eric hunting's emails
21:51 < kanzure> i think he'd have a pretty large readership
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22:22 < fenn> yes
22:22 < fenn> i was daydreaming about collecting them into a book or something
22:33 < JayDugger1> How much work would that take to do? Do you know any competent and unemployed graphic artists for layout?
22:33 < kanzure> what? just copy/paste them into a .txt
22:33 < JayDugger1> I don't think that would make a salable artifact.
22:34 < JayDugger1> People who'll pay for dead-tree books tend to want a "polished, professional" look. 
22:34 < JayDugger1> They'll pay for snob appeal.
22:43 < JayDugger1> I agree with fenn that shipping should not get counted against the materials and parts cost ceiling. Doing so would encourage people to cleverly game their supply chain vice improving their design.
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23:23 < QuantumG> kanzure: rather than defining a maximum parts costs, why not just have a deadline and say the winning is whoever provides a design with the lowest total cost?
23:24 < QuantumG> cost *is* the thing you're trying to minimize right?
23:25 < JayDugger1> Shipping costs vary with destination, for one thing. Do you want to fuse the design's cost with its cost to deliver?  
23:26 < JayDugger1> That might make sense, but it doesn't to me. Perhaps I missed something.
23:34 < fenn> i thought that repraps were supposed to be made in place from local materials
23:35 < JayDugger1> Where do you get your parts?
23:35 < fenn> you make them
23:36 < JayDugger1> Really.
23:36 < fenn> as long as we're fantasizing, why not
23:36 < JayDugger1> At what point do--oh, got it.
23:37 < fenn> currently, just the squirted plastic bits go for ~300 on ebay
23:37 < JayDugger1> Yeah, and I doubt many people cast their own metal, much less mine ore.
23:37 < fenn> oh, there's plastic laying around everywhere
23:38 < fenn> you can make an extruder out of just about anything
23:38 < JayDugger1> Which doesn't grow on trees, but I take your point on reuse.
23:38 < fenn> assuming you have a drill bit of course, that's the tricky part
23:38 < fenn> there was some interesting discussion on glass extruders, like a pasteur pipette
23:39 < fenn> there's also the entirety of the rest of process space to explore
23:40 < fenn> ceramic extrusion is definitely something to look into
23:42 < fenn> robocasting and various inkjet like ideas for green ceramic powder binding
23:42 < fenn> followed by a firing step
23:42 < fenn> supersaturated sugar solution is another totally unexplored area
23:44 < JayDugger1> Wasn't a candy printer built by Evil Mad Scientist Laboratory?
23:44 < JayDugger1> I remember seeing a concrete printer, in at least two places.
23:45 < JayDugger1> And Next Big Future had links to an Australian researcher who had a bacterial solution that would fuse sand into concretel
23:46 < JayDugger1> I'd like to have a printer for that. 
23:46 < JayDugger1> Dig a path, lay sand, run the printer over it--sidewalks.
23:46 < JayDugger1> Better yet, pave the yard and never mow a lawn again.
23:50 < fenn> huh, interesting event at hacker dojo http://www.aiaa-sf.org/
23:51 < fenn> the "candy printer" was awful, it had like 1/4" resolution and worked by burning the shit out of everything
23:51 < JayDugger1> I wondered about that.
23:52 < fenn> you can do the sand->concrete thing without bacteria, google 'water glass'
23:52 < JayDugger1> It seemed prone to caramelizing the sugar.
23:57 < JayDugger1> Huh. I wonder if that makes good concrete?
23:57 < JayDugger1> Have you seen magic glass printed?
23:57 < fenn> well, sandstone sort of stuff
23:58 < JayDugger1> Did you have a chance to handle it?
--- Log closed Sun Nov 07 00:00:07 2010