--- Log opened Mon Nov 29 00:00:08 2010
00:00 < fitzsim> QuantumG: with git though you can pull to a Tinderbox branch without messing up your own branches
00:02 < fitzsim> kanzure: svn log --stop-on-copy still only shows one log message
00:02 < kanzure> oh hm
00:03 < kanzure> fitzsim: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/log/?h=cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split
00:04 < fitzsim> ok, good example
00:04 < fitzsim> that one has multiple commits on the branch
00:05 < fitzsim> and the converter got the history
00:05 < fitzsim> but it's still not first-class git history
00:05 < fitzsim> since it doesn't know the branch and merge points
00:06 < fitzsim> so I'd be inclined to say that even though there is history on that branch, and even though it gets converted, it's not adding much historical value, versus looking at the SVN server backup
00:09 < kanzure> i'm not sure it adds any value even in svn
00:12 < fitzsim> it can, but you need to deduce the branch and merge points
00:12 < kanzure> are you sure the stuff ever got merged in?
00:25 < fitzsim> I didn't check that branch specifically
00:26 < Redeemer> Kanzure, when ya got a moment, not sure if ya replied, but any further info on the rooming situation this upcoming weekend?
00:28 < kanzure> Redeemer: nope i've got nothing
00:31 < Redeemer> We'll just have to make sure we organize our arrival then at roughly the same time
00:31 < Redeemer> That way payment stuff is easier.
00:33 < fitzsim> kanzure: anyway, discarding all SVN tags and branches could be an opportunity to make the repository smaller
00:33 < fitzsim> s/repository/git repository/
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01:08 < fitzsim> kanzure: I meant discarding them during the conversion process so they don't show up in the git history at all
01:39 < jrayhawk> the way to make the repository smaller is to split it up and stop sticking everything in the same repository
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07:38 < kanzure> archels: http://spectrum.ieee.org/robotics/artificial-intelligence/moneta-a-mind-made-from-memristors/0#
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07:46 < kanzure> an article on personalized genomics http://www.economist.com/node/16791936?story_id=16791936
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07:52 < archels> kanzure: sseehh posted that a few days ago in ##agi
07:53 < archels> < archels> sseehh: so basically they want to combine a self-modifying memristor CPU with evolutionary selection?
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07:54 < kanzure> hmm i must be getting slow
07:55 < archels> He never replied to that, and the article was tl;dr.
07:55 < JayDugger> Side effect of Thanksgiving dinner?
07:56 < archels> That was the 24th... I don't even know when Thanksgiving is. 25th? Or the nearest weekend?
07:56 < kanzure> haha makerbot now has a retail store in brooklyn
07:57 < kanzure> archels: 25th
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07:57 < kanzure> hi JayDugger 
08:00 < JayDugger> Thanksgiving happened last Thursday.
08:00 < archels> Right, that might be it then. :)
08:02 < archels> I thought that putting nanoscale analog computational elements through an evolutionary process might yield some interesting results that go beyond present simulations.
08:03 < Utopiah> archels: might want to check FPGA networks by de Garis but he doesn't communicate often recently AFAIK
08:03 < Utopiah> he used them to run ANN
08:03 < kanzure> hugo de garis?
08:04 < Utopiah> yes
08:04 < JayDugger> Artificial Neural Networks?
08:04 < kanzure> i used to hear his name a lot.. i think associated with transhumanism
08:04 < Utopiah> yes
08:04 < kanzure> JayDugger: yes
08:05 < JayDugger> Yeah, he wrote a piece titled "The Artilect War."
08:05 < Utopiah> his Chinese website doesn't show anything
08:05 < JayDugger> No..., I think I have that wrong.
08:05 < kanzure> oh that's right.. he was the one who flew ben goertzel out to china
08:05 < archels> Utopiah: I know about his work, but those aren't analog, so arguably not as "evolvable".
08:05 < kanzure> and got ben involved with the chinese government on opencog and xiaxen university
08:08 < Utopiah> JayDugger: I think you have that right but I didn't read it, sounded too sci-fi for me
08:09 < kanzure> now if you'll excuse me i must memorize the LHC rap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM
08:10 < kanzure> it's actually a little basic :/
08:10 < JayDugger> He did write a piece titled "The Artilect War," but that happened in 1999.
08:12 < JayDugger> Correctly rejected, IMO, by " Literary agents say my book is 'fantastical, too polemical', and not suitable for publication."
08:12 < kanzure> self-publication yo
08:13 < JayDugger> That only solves the distribution problem, not the literary merit problem. :)
08:14 < Utopiah> paradoxically enough I think I agree with the basic idea of an arm race using computing power and software to exploit it but I dont necessarly agree with the conclusion and the grandiose style
08:14 < Utopiah> but I didn't read it so :-#
08:14 < JayDugger> Yeah, Stanislaw Lem did it better in "Imaginary Magnitude."
08:14 < kanzure> sorry but we're too young to know about stanislaw lem
08:15 < JayDugger> Polish science-fiction writer.
08:15 < kanzure> oh, *i* know him
08:15 < kanzure> but a surprising set of people don't
08:18 < Utopiah> (Large Hadron Rap added to http://fabien.benetou.fr/Content/PiecesOfCulture#NerdMusic )
08:19 < kanzure> Utopiah: try also these:
08:19 < kanzure> Bio Rad GTCA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bF2QalUj1Y
08:20 < kanzure> Utopiah: http://thesoundsofscience.com/
08:21 < kanzure> aka "glory liu"
08:21 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
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08:21 < Utopiah> thanks, nice there is even an http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/07/sciencemusic/
08:33 < kanzure> john cumbers is pretty funny in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUZD8sj5c4w
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10:47 < kanzure> leaf pigment chromatography http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THqmpLdUaBA
11:05 < kanzure> fitzsim: try now http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/refs/
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11:18 < fitzsim> Receiving objects: 100% (102101/102101), 401.13 MiB | 1.45 MiB/s, done.
11:18 < fitzsim> ...
11:18 < fitzsim> real	5m32.791s
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11:22 < kanzure> fitzsim: well?
11:31 < kanzure> haha scripts to deal with cvs since otherwise it was too confusing http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/commit/?id=cc790e66c19422919aac3b15963dbe755670d576
11:37 < fitzsim> kanzure: examining the history with gitk --all
11:37 < fitzsim> kanzure: looks like a huge improvement!
11:38 < kanzure> can you post a screenshot of some interest segment from gitk? 
11:38 < kanzure> i haven't downloaded the git repo to my local box
11:39 < kanzure> *some interesting segment
11:42 < kanzure> hrm the first commits on 'master' are "Moved remotely" about 20 times
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12:14 < kanzure> in the 'cad' branch commit 6102f7e37a5f3aed539e7ccc9352d8dc4a0d60fd (whatever tree that corresponds to) the README.txt file can be git-blame'd all the way back to 2005 commits
12:15 < kanzure> but in branch master stuff can only be traced back to 2007-08-10 because of a "Moved remotely" commit :(
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12:20 < kanzure> hi sseehh 
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12:21 < sseehh> hi kanzure
12:26 < fitzsim> kanzure: this is looking really good so far
12:26 < fitzsim> kanzure: try: git checkout remotes/origin/cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split
12:35 < fitzsim> kanzure: I would expect "git diff" to output the diff between cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split HEAD and cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split HEAD's parent
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12:37 < fitzsim> ah, there we go: git diff remotes/origin/cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split^..remotes/origin/cad-ninad_20071211_selectMode_split
12:39 < fitzsim> so it looks like SVN "private branches" -- which are the file-subset branches we were seeing -- show up in this new git repo as branches with no branch point and no merge point
12:39 < fitzsim> which is correct
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12:53 < archels> sseehh: yo
12:55 < sseehh> hi archels
12:56 < archels> Hey, what's up? How's the housing arrangement?
13:01 < fitzsim> kanzure: looks like it converted branches/wware_jni_nd1 correctly
13:04 < kanzure> 2007-08-13 19:47 Mark Sims          My first SVN commit. Testing only. Ignorable commit.
13:06 < sseehh> archels: n2m staying /w friends
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13:07 < kanzure> +
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13:08 < archels> sseehh: alright
13:08 < archels> Carlos there as well?
13:08 < sseehh> archels: no carlos is in NYC
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13:09 < archels> ah, I saw his latest video.
13:11 < fitzsim> kanzure: looks like prior to August 10th, 2007 there were three separate directories, Distribution, cad and sim
13:11 < fitzsim> kanzure: each with its own development line
13:11 < fitzsim> kanzure: then on August 10th, 2007 Mark merged them all into one distribution on trunk
13:12 < fitzsim> kanzure: and that's what all the "Moved remotely" messages are about
13:12 < fitzsim> kanzure: you can see the movement of files
13:14 < fitzsim> e.g.: Addition to trunk (master in git repo):
13:14 < fitzsim> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/commit/?h=master&id=fdee9debedc807b3af5d3d3e8cbd780881fe8ee0
13:14 < kanzure> man, i'm having trouble keeping up with all of the activity at london-hack-space
13:15 < kanzure> fitzsim: "all into one distribution" do you mean "one directory"
13:17 < fitzsim> Removal from Distribution (origin/Distribution in git repo):
13:17 < fitzsim> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer-fixed/commit/?h=Distribution&id=d7a2ecb79487035ac542e4fcaecf2e63a2e14714
13:18 < fitzsim> kanzure: yeah, one directory in the SVN repo
13:18 < kanzure> hm the timestamps are exactly the same
13:19 < fitzsim> yeah, it was probably an atomic operation in the SVN server
13:20 < kanzure> nice find
13:24 < fitzsim> kanzure: I'm using gitg to visualize the history
13:26 < fitzsim> and if you scroll down, before 2007-08-10, you can clearly see the three lines of development: Distribution, sim and cad, with "Distribution-" tags pointing to the Distribution development line, and likewise for "sim-" tags, sim devel line and "cad-" tags, cad devel line
13:28 < kanzure> scroll down where?
13:29 < Utopiah> http://dot-p2p.org Peer-2-Peer exchanged DNS data (not filesharing)
13:35 < kanzure> fitzsim: do you mean scroll down in gitg?
13:35 < fitzsim> kanzure: yeah
13:36 < fitzsim> kanzure: and in the Branch: drop down, select "All branches"
13:40 < fitzsim> kanzure: the only thing I can't find is the branchpoint for wware_jni_nd1
13:40 < fitzsim> I'm guessing it was branched before the big merge
13:41 < fitzsim> but then after the merge it seems to go in lock-step with master and then just ends at f5c6dfad798511fd689ed926fbe53e1f6fb68134
13:47 < fitzsim> kanzure: prior to the big merge all branches (Distribution-, cad-, and sim-)  trace back to their initial independent revisions
13:48 < kanzure> "initial independent revisions" what? shouldn't they trace back to trunk somewhere?
13:49 < fitzsim> there were initally 3 separate directories in the SVN repo
13:49 < fitzsim> Distribution, cad and sim
13:49 < fitzsim> and people would commit to either Distribution, cad or sim
13:50 < fitzsim> I think there were three separate trunks
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13:50 < fitzsim> Distribution, cad and sim
13:50 < fitzsim> or something -- this is where SVN's repo namespaces get confusing, because what's a directory, what's a version?
13:51 < kanzure> well remember prior to 2007 it was cvs
13:52 < fitzsim> ok, then there were 3 separate CVS repos
13:52 < fitzsim> look right at the first commits
13:52 < kanzure> are you sure they were separate repos? or just branches
13:53 < fitzsim> I doubt they'd be branches in CVS since the filesets were mutually exclusive
13:53 < fitzsim> but it's not that important
13:54 < kanzure> you can have a branch that has a completely different set of files.
13:54 < fitzsim> right, but then it doesn't make much sense as a branch, vs separate repos
13:54 < fitzsim> if you look at the very first commits in gitk --all or gitg you can see three "Initial revision" messages, one for each of Distribution, cad and sim
13:57 < kanzure> it makes sense as a branch if you want to keep the revision history for any of the files you're branching
13:58 < kanzure> hmm
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14:06 < kanzure> well anyway, it's fine keeping them as branches
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14:10 < fitzsim> kanzure: the repo is fast now too
14:10 < fitzsim> looks like the emails are all right too
14:11 < fitzsim> they still point to @nanorex.com addresses, is that OK?
14:11 < kanzure> yes it's what mark specified
14:12 < kanzure> the nanorex.com email addresses are properly configured to point to latest email accounts
14:12 < fitzsim> great
14:12 < kanzure> the "Moved remotely" commits might be fixable
14:13 < fitzsim> fixable how, I mean what would they look like fixed?
14:13 < kanzure> there are multiple sets of multiple commits with the same timestamp and the "Moved remotely" commit message
14:13 < kanzure> the fix would be something like editing those commits to make them branch merges or something
14:14 < kanzure> fitzsim: if you want an example i suggest creating a dummy git repo and making branches/commits and merges out the gazoo
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14:19 < fitzsim> kanzure: thing is, I don't think these "Moved remotely" messages are artifacts of the SVN to git conversion
14:21 < fitzsim> I think they're a product of the CVS to SVN conversion
14:23 < kanzure> cvs2svn always left commit messages identifying its handywork
14:23 < kanzure> plus, cvs2svn used the "nobody" user- the "Moved remotely" messages seem to be mark sims
14:35 < fitzsim> but those commits actually happened in the SVN repo
14:35 < fitzsim> I agree it's annoying that they disrupt e.g. blame history, but they actually happened
14:36 < fitzsim> plus it seems like opening a can of worms trying to find merge points
14:36 < kanzure> finding merge points is easy: find two commits with different hashes, same commit messages, and the same timestamp
14:36 < fitzsim> if you want though, we can try it out
14:36 < kanzure> on different branches
14:36 < kanzure> (that's an important one to add, heh)
14:37 < fitzsim> :-)
14:37 < fitzsim> yeah, ok, give it a try
14:37 < fitzsim> the idea is that all the named branches are the ones that were never merged, right?
14:38 < kanzure> i don't see how that is relevant
14:38 < kanzure> when you merge in a branch that doesn't mean you delete it
14:38 < fitzsim> because in git named branches go away when they're merged
14:38 < fitzsim> I mean branch names
14:38 < kanzure> no they don't
14:39 < fitzsim> I wonder how you get gitk to show branch names on merged branches
14:39 < kanzure> you mean "git merge xyz" (to merge xyz into your currently checked out branch)? that will not delete xyz
14:39 < fitzsim> all it shows is the current heads as named branches
14:46 < sseehh> wondering if there's potential connection between (automated) fab control software and http://www.ros.org/ Robot Operating System
14:46 < kanzure> sseehh: what will you do if i say yes?
14:47 < sseehh> ask for a link
14:47 < QuantumG> sseehh: all the fab stuff I've seen has been in making parts.. no-one in that community assembles anything with robots yet.
14:47 < kanzure> so do you know about emc2, fabuntu, unix, or are you just dicking with me
14:48 < sseehh> im wondering if ROS has been used w/ any fab systems that arent necessarily robots
14:48 < kanzure> i don't know about ROS specifically
14:48 < sseehh> ill check out emc2 and fabuntu packages
14:48 < kanzure> a lot of people just write their own code or use windows-specific proprietaryware
14:49 < Utopiah> sseehh: like some "FactoryOS"?
14:53 < fitzsim> kanzure: ok, the project I'm looking at must have a policy of deleting branch tags after the branch is merged
14:53 < sseehh> basicaly i was wondering whether "robot" control systems like ROS have been or are used as fabricator control systems
14:53 < kanzure> fitzsim: "the project I'm looking at" something other than nanoengineer?
14:53 < kanzure> sseehh: how much do you know about industrial automation
14:54 < kanzure> zilch, a lot, ?
14:54 < sseehh> a little about CNC machines
14:54 < fitzsim> kanzure: yeah, wanted to look at a standard git repo
14:54 < fitzsim> kanzure: http://repo.or.cz/w/conkeror.git
14:55 < fitzsim> kanzure: git branch -a lists 14 branches, but gitk --all shows many more that have been merged
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15:01 < kanzure> fitzsim: try git branch -v and see if it prints out as many branches as you see in gitk --all
15:01 < kanzure> fitzsim: also, gitk --all includes tags
15:02 < kanzure> sseehh: yeah so there's a lot of automation stuff out there about machine vision, robotics, cnc, control, scada, etc.
15:03 < fitzsim> kanzure: nope
15:03 < QuantumG> good luck finding an affordable robotic arm that can do anything practical though
15:04 < kanzure> QuantumG: is "doing some extraordinarily specific task in a manufacturing/assembly line" something practical?
15:04 < QuantumG> yes, and finding a robotic arm that can do that and you can afford is probably not all that likely either.
15:05 < QuantumG> but hey, maybe your budget is much bigger than mine
15:05 < sseehh> kanzure: it seems that ROS is becoming a solid platform for robotics development. since there's a similarity between fab/CNC control and robotic manipulators i wondered about connections between the fields
15:05 < kanzure> QuantumG: *shrug* it is http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/2010-05-28_puma500.jpg
15:05 < kanzure> sseehh: i see. 
15:05 < QuantumG> I saw that the first time you posted it.. got it to do anything yet? :)
15:07 < kanzure> QuantumG: i got it to move
15:07 < kanzure> down the street.
15:07 < QuantumG> to your house :)
15:07 < kanzure> nah it's hopping facilities at the moment
15:08 < QuantumG> power it up sometime.. I'm sure there's a PhD thesis or 10 you can crib to make it play chess
15:08 < kanzure> no that's more like an undergrad project
15:08 < QuantumG> or masters
15:09 < QuantumG> can you detach that hand?
15:09 < QuantumG> put a screw driver on it say?
15:09 < kanzure> i'd have to make a custom fitting for the screw driver
15:10 < kanzure> but yes the hand is attached on (not welded or anything silly)
15:10 < QuantumG> be nice to see it take apart something and put it back together (now that's a fun vision project)
15:13 < kanzure> hmm stuxnet person killed http://www.debka.com/article/20406/
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15:46 < fitzsim> kanzure: btw, how did you make the big improvements in the history import?
15:46 < kanzure> svn-all-fast-export
15:46 < kanzure> added a rule for processing trunk/cad/branches/*
15:47 < kanzure> well trunk/(cad|sim|Distribution)/branches/*
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15:54 < fitzsim> nice
15:55 < fitzsim> ok, let me know when you're ready for me to test the "proper mergepoints" repo
15:56 < kanzure> still working on it
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16:20 < augur> bluetooth headphones!
16:21 < augur> i feel like a cyborg d#_#b
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18:39 < kanzure> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/ray-kurzweils-slippery-futurism/0
18:39 < kanzure> commentary from peanut gallery: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/11/29/2113231
18:44 < kanzure> this sounds about right: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1888364&cid=34381072
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22:58 < fenn> lots of machinist ebooks http://www.terrificshare.com/
23:04 < fenn> hmm most of these have password protection
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23:25 < fenn> bah it's some sort of russian scam, nevermind
23:25 < fenn> well, most of them at least
23:26 < QuantumG> yeah, looks like
23:44  * fenn mumbles something about worldcat and interlibrary loan
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 30 00:00:07 2010