--- Log opened Sat Dec 11 00:00:08 2010
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06:25 < Utopiah> NEC Dew - Records and Attaches Emotional Data to Pictures http://www.diginfo.tv/2010/12/10/10-0256-r-en.php
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08:43 < delinquentme> hurro!!
08:46 < kanzure> hello
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08:53 < delinquentme> id love to get some feedback on this idea :D   http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45553-looking-for-biomed-research-expertise/
08:53 < delinquentme> anyone w something to say .. feel free to yap to me about it 
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09:14 < bdesk> hi
09:14 < bdesk> did you guys see that subtractive reprap like thingy?
09:18 < bdesk> http://www.mydiycnc.com/
09:18 < bdesk> it is trending on the intertubes
09:18 < delinquentme> bdesk, u ever heard of cloudfab?
09:20 < bdesk> delinquentme: is there a list of cool things people have made with it?
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09:20 < delinquentme> umm good question ... he usually says "anything" haha but i should ask him about that ... i saw one of his models the other day ... blew my head man
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09:25 < kanzure> bdesk: re: mylilcnc you should read http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1905510&cid=34517124
09:25 < kanzure> delinquentme: if you like cloudfab you should try mfg.com (they've been doin' it longer)
09:26 < kanzure> i do like cloudfab's "raining gears" graphic though http://cloudfab.com/media/images/how_graphic.jpg
09:26 < delinquentme> kanzure, the founder is a buddy of mine :D
09:26 < kanzure> steve?
09:26 < delinquentme> steve WAS the programmer
09:26 < kanzure> pinkcston
09:27 < kanzure> *nick pinkston
09:27 < delinquentme> pinkston yeahh
09:27 < delinquentme> haha how du guys know this shit?
09:27 < kanzure> ? it's my job to know these things
09:27 < bdesk> delinquentme: kanzure is like the NSA for this stuff
09:27 < delinquentme> hahah!
09:27 < bdesk> delinquentme: now he knows that you know that he knows...
09:27 < kanzure> it's true http://diyhpl.us/cgit/meetlog/plain/meetlog.txt
09:28 < delinquentme> kanzure, this is unreal .. is that your like list of contacts?
09:29 < kanzure> yes
09:29 < bdesk> delinquentme: it is the list that Ed You pays him to compile
09:29 < kanzure> haha i wish
09:30 < delinquentme> haha im still lost
09:30 < delinquentme> wild though
09:32 < bdesk> delinquentme: and probably half of the people on that list have written manifestos like the one you posted on your forum.
09:36 < delinquentme> bdesk, well i kinda imagined it would be a common thought
09:36 < kanzure> LA/GRG groupie has founded an autologous adult stem cell startup (for wound healing.. stuff) today
09:36 < kanzure> bioelectric research corp http://www.bioerc.com/
09:36 < delinquentme> but theres TONS of people who have patents and stuff on it .. but no one does anything with it
09:40 < bdesk> i like how their homepage is a single image file
09:41 < delinquentme> baaahaha
09:41 < delinquentme> thats kinda awesome
09:41 < delinquentme> it seems like MANY bio companies thats the dig haha ... like someone made this thing in 98
09:42 < delinquentme> Oh and i read something today about some russian scientist whos claiming to have a cure aging pill
09:42 < delinquentme> and he talks about .. not extending life .. but extending YOUTH
09:42  * delinquentme checks his channel
09:42  * delinquentme check! checked himself
09:42 < delinquentme> which conveys much better what were after
09:47 < bdesk> http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153890/larry-king-show
09:48 < delinquentme> bdesk, lol
09:49 < delinquentme> PS .. BTW . ..  arent pluripotent cells just as good as embryonic?
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09:50 < kanzure> so far i haven't heard anything to the contrary..
09:50 < bdesk> i think that there is something called 'totipotent' which might be less differentiated than pluripotent.
09:50 < bdesk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_potency
09:51 < delinquentme> wooties :D
09:52 < delinquentme> i had a convo w my mum about living forever
09:52 < bdesk> delinquentme: you are not going to be able to afford to live forever
09:52 < delinquentme> shes wants to die bc people she knew died
09:52 < delinquentme> thats weird.
09:52 < kanzure> delinquentme: the russian you are thinking of is Vladimir Skulachev <skulach@belozersky.msu.ru>
09:52 < kanzure> something about skq1
09:53 < bdesk> did that caltech thing happen yet?  i forget when it was supposed to be.
09:53 < kanzure> bdesk: yep. dec. 4th/5th
09:53 < bdesk> how was it
09:53 < kanzure> it went better than i thought it would..
09:54 < bdesk> how was your talk and the aging debate
09:54 < kanzure> my talk went fine (i still need to upload it to youtoob)
09:54 < kanzure> the aging debate was the same-old same-old so i didn't listen to it
09:54 < kanzure> but i did have a round with aubrey at the pub.. that was fun
09:54 < delinquentme> 2,3-dimethylhydroquinone bound through decane to a triphenylphosphine
09:55 < delinquentme> simply put i fail to see how any other pursuit is even worth it
09:55 < delinquentme> if you're a creationist i can see why not
09:55 < delinquentme> but if youre not .. eh
09:56 < bdesk> Life and death appeared to me ideal bounds, which I should first break through, and pour a torrent of light into our dark world.
09:57 < bdesk> kanzure: i imagine he would not go for alcohol
09:57 < kanzure> aubrey? he drinks like crazy
09:57 < kanzure> delinquentme: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19120018
09:57 < bdesk> lol
09:57 < delinquentme> nope! the dude digs it haha
09:57 < delinquentme> OOO! you guys would know this
09:57 < delinquentme> what are all these short codes that people in bio use
09:58 < kanzure> i only recently saw this but really his wikipedia article is p. good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_de_Grey
09:58 < delinquentme> that skq1 thing
09:58 < kanzure> compared to all of the other awful wikipedia entries on transhumanist stuff :/
09:58 < kanzure> delinquentme: usually gene names
09:59 < kanzure> skq1 is just a nickname for plastoquinonyl-decyl-triphenylphosphonium kind of like a brand name for a drug :P
10:00 < delinquentme> is it some arbitrary number?
10:00 < delinquentme> it doesnt look like it corresponds??
10:00 < delinquentme> number = alpha numeric :D
10:02 < delinquentme> kanzure, where can i find the full text of this?
10:03 < bdesk> http://singularityhub.com/tag/skq1/
10:03 < bdesk> it removed a cataract from his eye omg!!1!!!11!
10:03 < kanzure> delinquentme: http://content.imamu.edu.sa/Scholars/it/VisualBasic/bcm_1329.pdf
10:04 < delinquentme> got it!
10:04 < delinquentme> thanks
10:04 < delinquentme>  btw 
10:04 < delinquentme> http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/interview-of-gene-sequencing-expert.html
10:04 < delinquentme> i <3 this guy
10:04 < kanzure> well, you'd be super excited if you had funding/money too
10:05 < kanzure> i suspect the andregg brothers just happened to know the right people or something
10:05 < delinquentme> bdesk, yeah lol 
10:05 < delinquentme> kanzure, they know how to work the VC game
10:05 < delinquentme> and come on .. if we could program DNA like i program rails
10:05 < delinquentme> EFFFfff
10:05 < delinquentme> id be making myself girlfriends
10:05 < delinquentme> oh wait.. they'd still have to grow up .. jettison that
10:06 < bdesk> delinquentme: sk is for skulachev
10:06 < kanzure> bdesk: you sure?
10:06 < bdesk> delinquentme: q1 is for quinone
10:06 < bdesk> kanzure: yes
10:07 < delinquentme> quinone
10:07 < delinquentme> and that ties into ?
10:07 < bdesk> delinquentme: plastiquinonyl
10:07 < kanzure> plastoquinone
10:07 < delinquentme> OH!
10:07 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastoquinone
10:08 < delinquentme> SO
10:08 < delinquentme> taken into consideration these guys arent in the US
10:08 < delinquentme> they dont have to deal w the FDA... so like they take rusky prisoners and make em eat it right?
10:08 < kanzure> i think russia has an FDA-like entity
10:09 < delinquentme> and if they're not dead the next day its approved for public consumption right?
10:09 < bdesk> they take a mouse and make it eat it
10:10 < bdesk> also you can double median lifespan without extending max lifespan
10:10 < delinquentme> SERIOUSLY  weve got the dudes who are working on BioCoder .. employed by microhard .. and doing nothing
10:10 < delinquentme> Ehhhhhh
10:10 < uniqanomaly_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noopept this is insane
10:11 < delinquentme> bdesk, you mean stay younger .. but die @ same age?
10:11 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, ^^ so its like adderalL?
10:11 < uniqanomaly_> to 1k times more potent than piracetam where pramiracetam is just 8-30x times more potent 
10:11 < uniqanomaly_> nootropic
10:12 < uniqanomaly_> GABA receptors
10:12 < bdesk> delinquentme: i just mean that when you do tests on mice that die at various ages then you can increase the age at which half the mice are still alive without increasing the age at which the oldest mouse is still alive
10:12 < uniqanomaly_> Adderall is stimulant
10:12 < delinquentme> ohhh
10:13 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, you've lost me
10:13 < delinquentme> nm
10:13 < delinquentme> googling!
10:13 < uniqanomaly_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic
10:13 < uniqanomaly_> a 'little' list
10:14 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, sooo these dont pass the american FDA?
10:14 < kanzure> i used to have a list of nootropic stuff over here http://heybryan.org/leveraging-nootropics.html
10:14 < kanzure> man, it's weird having heybryan.org back up
10:14 < delinquentme> or drug companies pay to keep them out?
10:14 < kanzure> i should probably fix the content/pages
10:14 < delinquentme> kanzure, are you the dude form heybrian??
10:15 < bdesk> to me it seems like stimulants are not healthy because otherwise your body would make them naturally in the right quantities, but i assume that this is a minority luddite opinion here.  is there a good argument against this?
10:15 < uniqanomaly_> delinquentme: THE dude, lol
10:16 < delinquentme> bdesk, i <3 caffeine :D
10:16 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, lol oh thats cool ... ive seen the website a few times :D
10:16 < kanzure> delinquentme: yes i'm heybryan.org
10:16 < delinquentme> my websites arent as informative .. but they're pretty :D
10:16 < kanzure> also i apologize for how awful the site is
10:16 < delinquentme> slightly usable :P
10:17 < uniqanomaly_> bdesk: if youre crazy enough you can mix stimulants with anxiolytic drugs
10:17 < kanzure> yeah i don't care about css or looks much
10:17 < kanzure> unless you pay me piles of cash
10:17 < delinquentme> kanzure, it just looks like a programmer made it :D
10:17 < bdesk> delinquentme: you can put his website on rails
10:17 < delinquentme> ja ja ja
10:18 < delinquentme> www.black-glass.com is my current
10:18 < delinquentme> its old though
10:18 < delinquentme> my RIGHT NOW project is top secret u know
10:18 < delinquentme> id tell you but id have to kill you, but i dont anyone to die so literally, youll just never know.
10:19 < bdesk> delinquentme: i thought you wanted to democratize research
10:19 < delinquentme> bdesk, for what ends?
10:19 < delinquentme> to make $$? fuck that.
10:20 < delinquentme> so i dont have to test out my moms pearly gate hypothesis
10:20 < kanzure> i prefer django over rails
10:20 < kanzure> but i don't really see a strong need to put my homepage on top of django or rails
10:20 < kanzure> maybe ikiwiki and a git repo but that's about it.
10:21 < delinquentme> eh ppl go on and on about frameworks
10:21 < delinquentme> use what works
10:21 < bdesk> you should just make a facebook like everyone else
10:21 < bdesk> that way they wont think you are weird
10:21 < delinquentme> facebook1337
10:21 < kanzure> ok updated http://diyhpl.us/cgit/meetlog/log/
10:21 < kanzure> ph33r
10:22 < delinquentme> oh so back to skq1 ...
10:22 < delinquentme> so lets say the russian clinical trials work
10:22 < delinquentme> what happens then?
10:23 < kanzure> the professor probably has a company under which the trials are being executed
10:23 < kanzure> .ru university gets a cut from some sort of patent transfer/cross licensing agreement
10:24 < kanzure> big pharma probably won't touch the drug so he'll get a few investors
10:24 < kanzure> in 10 or 15 years it'll end up as some expensive product on some shelf
10:26 < kanzure> every university has an "office of technology commercialization" if you haven't seen yet
10:27 < delinquentme> check.
10:27 < delinquentme> well phuck  if that works i can move onto other projects ??
10:27 < kanzure> ?
10:27 < kanzure> there's no silver bullet- this is not a wonder drug
10:27 < delinquentme> explain plz
10:28 < delinquentme> ( im a programmer)
10:28 < bdesk> kanzure: good to see ur signing NDAs.  next you can help pillage teh hackerspaces for startups
10:28 < kanzure> bdesk: :(
10:28 < kanzure> i feel really bad about signing NDAs
10:28 < kanzure> i signed one for halcyon molecular
10:28 < kanzure> and was very disappointed
10:29 < kanzure> this stuff could be derived from first principles
10:29 < kanzure> in fact, half of it was stuff i've already looked into and thought was the right way forward (the rest is what they think is magic sauce, but not really)
10:29 < delinquentme> first principles?
10:29 < kanzure> i.e. sitting around on your ass
10:29 < bdesk> at this point i think you are more demonstrably pro-ip than i am
10:29 < kanzure> of course, execution matters, but it helps to know a good direction
10:29 < kanzure> wow
10:29 < kanzure> bdesk: that hurts man :(
10:30 < delinquentme> was there a missing letter ?
10:30 < delinquentme> pro-ipo?
10:30 < bdesk> and i love ip :D
10:30 < kanzure> i'm very much against IP/IPR
10:30 < delinquentme> OHHH
10:30 < bdesk> delinquentme: intellectual property
10:30 < delinquentme> jsut googled
10:31 < bdesk> although i realize that intellectual property is not necessarily the same thing as signing a contract saying to to discuss certain things, but it is close.
10:31 < bdesk> *not to
10:31 < kanzure> i need to upload these somewhere: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/longevity_papers.txt (skq1 is not the end of the rainbow)
10:32 < delinquentme> i think im just gonna stop breathing so much
10:32  * delinquentme holds breath
10:32 < bdesk> delinquentme: also eating
10:32 < delinquentme> yeah i watch what i eat already
10:32 < delinquentme> excercise regularly
10:32 < delinquentme> bang sluts
10:32 < delinquentme> etc
10:33 < delinquentme> oh, wait.
10:34 < bdesk> aging is just a population genetically evolved method of social control, and you can disrupt this tyranny using the skq1 chemical.
10:34 < delinquentme> i think its fascinating how balance is a big factor in humans
10:35 < delinquentme> like x dose does this ... x+5 does the opposite
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10:35 < bdesk> delinquentme: that sounds dangerously like homeopathy.  what about 10^-20 x?
10:36 < delinquentme> haha
10:36 < kanzure> bdesk: nah you need something like "aging is a lie perpetuated by elitist neoluddites in charge of global world feudalism, everyone who knows of skq1 will be murdered"
10:36 < delinquentme> well it was more of a factor 10x
10:36 < delinquentme> O_o;;;;
10:36 < delinquentme> kanzure, you're scaring me
10:37 < kanzure> delinquentme: we're trolling you
10:37 < bdesk> but to some degree natural death really is adaptive for a population, right?  isn't this the mainstream thought?
10:37 < delinquentme> FALSE
10:37 < bdesk> i mean having a genetically controlled average lifespan limit
10:37 < delinquentme> these are all presidents based on OLD ideas
10:37 < delinquentme> tenets call them what you will
10:37 < bdesk> you mean like lincoln?
10:37 < uniqanomaly_> yeah, it is forcing some genetic/memetic progress
10:38 < uniqanomaly_> i guess
10:38 < kanzure> bdesk: to some extent but i imagine selective pressures are stronger on humans that can reproduce, rather than negatively on social structures that take care of their elderly (which is a more subtle selective pressure)
10:38 < bdesk> uniqanomaly_: i don't know much about the literature so i might be saying discredited things
10:38 < delinquentme> kanzure, haha well thats one way to get people up in arms .. i thought about going at this from a pull approach .. with stuff like that
10:38 < delinquentme> marketing approach
10:39 < bdesk> kanzure: but more broadly why can people only reproduce until a certain age?  this might be part of the same adaptive genetically controlled program.
10:39 < uniqanomaly_> bdesk  if most people from Middle Ages would be alive today i guess we wouldn't make much progress
10:39 < bdesk> uniqanomaly_: isn't that heresy on this channel?
10:40 < delinquentme> bdesk, it doesnt make sense to me to conclude that EVERY nuance of what it means to be human should be viewed as "adaptive"
10:40 < bdesk> delinquentme: absolutely right.
10:40 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, though this point does worry me a bit
10:40 < bdesk> for example the breathing/swallowing/talking mess
10:41 < delinquentme> and i think what DOES drive innovation is the young crowd
10:41 < kanzure> yawn.w
10:41 < delinquentme> bdesk, lol
10:42 < bdesk> delinquentme: but is it because of their chronological age or because of their reproductive ability or because of their lack of senility or dementia?
10:42 < delinquentme> id say its due to the transition from novelty to judgement
10:42 < uniqanomaly_> i mean backward ideas have to die out eventually
10:42 < delinquentme> thats a psychological answer haha
10:42  * delinquentme fears for his life now
10:43 < bdesk> kanzure: i think this is an important issue for life extension.  if there is adaptive genetic governor on lifespan then it is more easily subverted than if death is just caused by slings and arrows which we were unable to prevent
10:43 < delinquentme> MAYBE it could be tied to the fact that we cant enjoy all the novelty that we have as children bc physical decay??
10:44 < uniqanomaly_> problem is when some people were nurtured with some retarded memes like 'killing for god'
10:44 < kanzure> bdesk: i don't see the difference
10:44 < kanzure> bdesk: i also don't see the difference in determining whether or not aging has any involvement from genetics or not
10:44 < kanzure> it's clear that elderly people have genes, 'nuf said
10:44 < kanzure> now lets go fix the problems
10:45 < uniqanomaly_> i guess my idea is 'just' memetic eugenics
10:45 < delinquentme> bdesk, im not following what point you're working towards w the death by nature vrs sticks and stones
10:46 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, corresponding question .. is if we had no religion would LE be more of an issue for people
10:46 < delinquentme> questionmark.
10:46 < bdesk> i'm just considering two possibilities with very different implications for life extension research.  1) you have a limited life 'on purpose'. in this case you can play mad scientist and trick your body into living forever.  2) your body is already trying to live forever and is failing.
10:47 < delinquentme> bdesk, ???
10:47 < kanzure> #1 just seems to be a subset of possible reasons why #2 is failing
10:47 < kanzure> so i don't really get it
10:47 < bdesk> the only way i can imagine that the russian's chemical works is if (1) is true.
10:48 < bdesk> if (2) is true then adding a chemical won't do jack
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10:49 < delinquentme> bdesk, if adding the chemical removes damage ... this presupposes both those questions does it not?
10:49 < delinquentme> if the damage => aging
10:49 < delinquentme> its totally unnecessary to worry whether is meant to or not
10:49 < delinquentme> fuck what evolution tells our bodys to do
10:49 < delinquentme> my MIND says this is what i want it to do
10:49 < delinquentme> lol
10:49 < delinquentme> that sounded ignorant sorry
10:50 < delinquentme> but i mean we've got control of our own evo now
10:50 -!- evolv [~Jesus@unaffiliated/evolv] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:50 < delinquentme> from a biological standpoint .. not just the selective fitness standpoint
10:50 < kanzure> hi evolv 
10:50 < evolv> hi
10:51 < uniqanomaly_> delinquentme: i think religion is correlated with being small minded, more people who overcome it are pro LE i guess
10:51 < bdesk> evolv: in this channel we discuss a chemical that doubles the median life expectancy
10:51 < uniqanomaly_> sorry for long response times btw
10:51 < kanzure> evolv: http://content.imamu.edu.sa/Scholars/it/VisualBasic/bcm_1329.pdf
10:52 < evolv> bdesk, marijuana?
10:52 < bdesk> im not a chemist but i doubt it
10:53 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, umm i would say theres a STRONG correlation
10:53 < delinquentme> evolv, i've heard!
10:53 < bdesk> evolv: kfc
10:53 < evolv> haha
10:53 < evolv> I don't know if I want to spend time critiquing this paper
10:54 < evolv> it's definitely a funding grabber
10:54 < kanzure> evolv: delinquentme thinks it's a magic bullet *shrug*
10:54 < evolv> but I'm sure there are glaring problems this has with life history traits
10:54 < evolv> like all aging studies
10:54 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, thats why this is a frikken awesome pursuit ... you've got to be a retard to _ NOT _ want this product
10:54 < delinquentme> kanzure, actually i was waiting for an explanation on this
10:55 < bdesk> delinquentme: what if they are lying
10:55 < kanzure> are you asking "what is a magic bullet?"
10:55 < delinquentme> as i said im a programmer not a biologist ... so i just want to know more
10:55 < kanzure> delinquentme: damn it the whole phrase "there is no silver bullet" comes from software engineering anyway
10:55 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet
10:55 < delinquentme> kanzure, i thought the implications of your response "its not a magic bullet" precluded that " theres OTHER stuff involved with LE"
10:56 < kanzure> no
10:56 < delinquentme> oh.
10:56 < kanzure> don't waste your life on a prayer about skq1
10:56 < evolv> taking the study on face value, there needs to be follow up studies to examine consequences
10:56 < delinquentme> check! so i've STILL got a job to do!!
10:56 < bdesk> my discussion about evolution was related to the question of the possibility of the existence of an anti-aging magic bullet.
10:56 < evolv> also, mice don't live that long as it is
10:56 < delinquentme> ... what would i even do if i was young for 1000 years
10:57 < kanzure> bdesk: i think any anti-aging system would look like a magic bullet in the end, so that muddies your argument up
10:57 < bdesk> my logic was that if evolution causes us to live only 100 years then we could give it the middle finger by eating a chemical and screwing up its chemical pathway.
10:57 < kanzure> ok so what about two molecules
10:57 < kanzure> or three or N?
10:57 < delinquentme> id have lots of sex .. now that HIV has  been cured ... http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.poz.com%2Frssredir%2Farticles%2Fhiv_berlin_cure_761_19563.shtml%3Fsms_ss%3Dfacebook%26at_xt%3D4d02a090069f03b9%252C0&h=12d6f .. id shit .. umm do the same thing but maybe at a slower pace?
10:57 < delinquentme> drive F1 cars!
10:57 < evolv> is delinquentme a troll/
10:58 < kanzure> bdesk: at which point is your magic bullet theory of anti-aging over extending itself
10:58 < kanzure> evolv: probably
10:58 < delinquentme> lol what?!
10:58 < bdesk> kanzure: i think it is possible to have an anti-aging system without a magic bullet, but it would be a lot of work.
10:58 < delinquentme> im just saying! these are relevant considerations are they not??
10:58 < evolv> how is this chemical supposed to protect against mutations caused by sunlight and the issue with telemeres?
10:58 < kanzure> evolv: telomerase is just one factor out of many in aging :P
10:59 < uniqanomaly_> some responses to http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/12/09/worms.health/index.html are great example of small mindedness
10:59 < kanzure> actually, this is where aubrey comes in
10:59 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategies_for_Engineered_Negligible_Senescence
10:59 < evolv> kanzure, which is wh I mentioned mutations caused by sunlight
10:59 < kanzure> hiyaah
10:59 < uniqanomaly_> "Man finds extreme healing eating parasitic worms"
10:59 < bdesk> evolv: perhaps those issues are on purpose and we can eat a chemical that will ensure more fidelity in our dna copying
10:59 < uniqanomaly_> "The impact of mucus alone is not a scientific explanation for the possible improvement attributed to the worms," says Dr. Stephen Hanauer, a member of the board of trustees of the American College of Gastroenterology."
10:59 < bdesk> which is the issue behind both of those forms of damage
10:59 < kanzure> evolv: yeah but radiation damage + telomerase is not the full story.
10:59 < kanzure> evolv: read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategies_for_Engineered_Negligible_Senescence
11:00 < kanzure> also i have Aubrey.zip somewhere on heybryan.org.. which is basically everything aubrey has ever published on this topic
11:00 < evolv> kanzure, no shit.  I was giving a few examples
11:01 < bdesk> evolv: so you're saying that there are so many things causing people to die, that a single chemical is unlikely to address enough of them to double our median lifespan?
11:01 < kanzure> bdesk: anyway, my point is that your magic bullet idea just seems like it could be applied to basically anything
11:01 < evolv> bdesk, I'm sure there is the magic chemical.  Just like the magic chemical to cure all cancer 
11:01 < kanzure> bdesk: however, specifically stating "there is a single chemical or set of N chemicals that will stop human aging genetic programs" (or something even more specific) might be a valid hypothesis
11:01 < evolv> bdesk, I heard squeezing the juices of a snake and rubbing it on the cancerous spot will cure cancer
11:02 < bdesk> you guys should be arguing with each other not with me lol
11:02 < kanzure> evolv: re: curing cancer, one interesting approach is to use oncolytic viruses to attack cancers (once you identify/bioposy your cancer); not really a cure or immunity to cancer but it is one solution.
11:03 < kanzure> *biopsy
11:04 < bdesk> evolv: i don't think there is a magic chemical.  i was just imagining a far-fetched scenario under which such a magic bullet would be possible.
11:04 < evolv> I was just being cheeky
11:04 < evolv> I thought that's what we were all doing
11:05 < bdesk> evolv: no kanzure thinks its possible
11:05 < evolv> man, if science was that easy
11:05 < bdesk> evolv: also delinquentme with his russian pdf
11:05 < kanzure> bdesk: one simple model is a death hormone that accumulates wrt lifespan, and the death hormone triggers death. thus, stopping this, or a genetic regulatory equivalent, would be what you call ripe for a magic bullet cure
11:05 < delinquentme> ^_^
11:06 < kanzure> what do i think is possible?
11:06 < bdesk> kanzure: i agree.  this is exactly what i was talking about.
11:06 < delinquentme> actually im checking out more about the 7 deadly SENS right now ... im wanting to say they all stem from a single issue
11:06 < kanzure> bdesk: i know. i don't think you're reading my messages
11:06 < evolv> death hormone that triggers death
11:06 < evolv> wtf
11:06 < evolv> lol
11:06 < kanzure> evolv: yes i think it's stupid too
11:06 < bdesk> evolv: it's possible though right?
11:06 < kanzure> ugh
11:07 < kanzure> bdesk: now i'm starting to think you're the troll
11:07 < evolv> lol
11:07 < bdesk> im not trolling, i'm just considering under what circumstances it would be possible to have the magic bullet chemical.
11:07 < bdesk> the death hormone is a good example.
11:07 < uniqanomaly_> http://ceri.com/deprenyl.htm
11:08 < uniqanomaly_> death hormone, wtf?
11:08 < kanzure> bdesk: most people who believe in magic bullet cures to aging use the genetic regulatory network cascading collapse model (instead of death hormone) or oxidation damage or telomerase damage models
11:08 < bdesk> uniqanomaly_: the idea is that if there is a death hormone and the russian chemical blocks this, then it might actually work.
11:09 < uniqanomaly_> i would cut out this death hormone with Occam's razor
11:09 < delinquentme> do the "super oxides" Vladomir Putin talks about shorten telomeres?
11:09 -!- jennifer2 is now known as mindthestep
11:09 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, it holds up to occams razor! you've cured aging!
11:10 < uniqanomaly_> i mean concept of death hormone
11:10 < bdesk> kanzure: if you want my honest opinion about anti-aging, it is that it might be possible but it would be very expensive and invasive.
11:10 < kanzure> bdesk: WIRT or whatever in SENS has "step 2: remove all bone marrow and replace with fresh marrow"
11:11 < kanzure> *painful*
11:11 < bdesk> yes, invasive on the order of that.
11:11 < delinquentme> kanzure, wtf??
11:11 < kanzure> delinquentme: stem cell replacement therapy stuff.
11:11 < kanzure> http://www.di.fm/mp3/vocaltrance.pls
11:11 < delinquentme> what step of sens is "remove marrow"
11:12 < bdesk> the sadistic step.  its actually completely unnecessary
11:12 < delinquentme> lol
11:12 < kanzure> hmm where is this step
11:12 < delinquentme> you guys
11:12 < kanzure> actually i might be blowing poop up your ass, i don't see 'marrow' on the wikipedia page
11:12 < kanzure> where did this come from
11:12 < delinquentme> not http://www.sens.org/forums/sens
11:13 < kanzure> http://acceleratingfuture.com/hplusroadmapwiki/Roadmap
11:13 < kanzure> "AdG suggests stem cell replacement therapy every decade, a massive animal experiment to engineer immortal animals (for testing purposes and to stay ahead of us), and longevity-mice experiments within the next ten years. Insert here a more thorough summary of his papers (from the zip file)."
11:13 < kanzure> wait a sec
11:13 < kanzure> i wrote that :(
11:14 < kanzure> oh that's hplusroadmapwiki
11:14 < bdesk> lol
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11:16 < kanzure> http://fixourgenes.com/
11:16 < kanzure> well i'm at a loss
11:16 < delinquentme> GRAAA
11:16 < delinquentme> theres sooo many ways to go at this problem :D
11:18 < kanzure> bdesk: am i making up this bone marrow transplant stuff?
11:19 < bdesk> i dunno but it sounds like a good idea
11:20 < bdesk> i bet it would feel so refreshing
11:20 < kanzure> "De Grey suggests replacing a person's stem cells every 10 years with engineered varieties"
11:20 < kanzure> "Here we mean regular (every 10 years) replacement of stem cells population"
11:20 < bdesk> i think that blood comes from stem cells in your marrow
11:20 < bdesk> so it seems plausible
11:20 < delinquentme> "99% of the time 'it' turns into harmless water... but the 1% of the time it turns into 'superoxide' "
11:20 < delinquentme> whats the it
11:21 < kanzure> you know maybe it's just been me making this 10yr replacement thng up
11:21 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/b84cf53add0a4800
11:22 < kanzure> "As it happens, WILT has never been my favorite strategy in SENS - which is interesting, given that it is just as scientifically sound as the rest."
11:22 < kanzure> `I think that my instinctive objection stems from it being the one portion of SENS we can point to today and say "that would need a touch-up procedure every 10 years ... or else."`
11:22 < kanzure> "The need to return to the clinic exists because a WILT recipient has no more telomerase anywhere, including - especially - the stem cell populations vital to health. There are genetic diseases that tell us what happens when your stem cells stop being able to lengthen their telomeres; it's a slow and unpleasant way to go, taking about a decade to show up in earnest, and running downhill from there as regeneration and repair starts to shut down."
11:23 < kanzure> "So the WILT recipient of 2030 would have to receive new stem cell populations, or more likely some form of gene therapy that restored telomere length in the existing populations, every decade or so."
11:23 < kanzure> "To me, ten years is not a broad enough margin to account for error, falling into bankruptcy, heading out to the backwaters of the solar system and back again, and so forth. It's all too easy for something to go wrong. The ideal hypothetical longevity therapy (or component of longevity therapy) lengthens your life span even if you never see another clinic again - but WILT dramatically reduces your life span under that set of circumstances."
11:23 < kanzure> ok so it was the WILT part of SENS
11:24 < delinquentme> damn im lost
11:24 < kanzure> "Whole-body Interdiction of Lengthening of Telomeres"
11:24 < bdesk> delinquentme: in order to stay alive your cells need to keep dividing.  each time they divide they lose a bit of dna off the ends.  when too much dna is lost you die.
11:24 < kanzure> aha here we go
11:24 < kanzure> the 2005 publication of WILT
11:24 < kanzure> http://www.bioscience.org/2005/v10/af/1707/list.htm
11:25 < kanzure> "Aubrey D.N.J. de Grey" what the hell aubrey
11:25 < delinquentme> dbolser, ummm when cells divide they snip a bit of the telomere off the end ... 
11:25 < delinquentme> im not sure about the whole die when its gone
11:26 < delinquentme> but i thought INSTEAD that the CELLS no longer replicate in a clean manner after the telomeres are gone?
11:26 < delinquentme>  all we need to do is develop a really, really good cure for cancer
11:26 < delinquentme> thats part of the WILT discussion on SENS
11:26 < bdesk> no longer replicate in a clean manner = you die
11:26 < delinquentme> thats AWESOME .. because theres LOTS of people working on cancer
11:26 < bdesk> that's not just cancer...
11:27 < bdesk> delinquentme: it is like if every cell in your body turned into a cancer cell.
11:27 < kanzure> let's use better terminology instead of cancer
11:27 < kanzure> "replicates a fuckload often"
11:27 < bdesk> i meant thae 'no longer replicate in a clean manner' part
11:27 < delinquentme> bdesk, im confused though .. w the harvard telomere research .. they were talking about extending the telomeres resulting in cancer
11:28 < delinquentme> telomeres ... WHICH WOULD ... result in cancer ..e xcuse me
11:28 < kanzure> hmm there's probably another set of pathologies or words to describe that, which i'm forgetting
11:28 < kanzure> delinquentme: what harvard stuff? the recent stuff in the newsS?
11:28 < kanzure> *news
11:28 < delinquentme> yeah w the mouses
11:28 < delinquentme> HAR!
11:28 < kanzure> yeah that was bullshit
11:28 < delinquentme> wink wink nudge nudge
11:28 < delinquentme> yeahhh
11:28 < delinquentme> i spammed it all over FB
11:29 < delinquentme> then realized it wasnt that impressive
11:29 < kanzure> they genetically engineered the mice to have retarded telomerase
11:29 < kanzure> so guess what happens when you fix the telomerases!
11:29 < delinquentme> they dont die!
11:30 < delinquentme> OK!
11:30 < delinquentme> so no the correlation is 
11:30 < kanzure> for your purposes you should just know that there's a set of molecular enzymes and tools to copy DNA from one cell to the next
11:30 < kanzure> as well as DNA repair mechanisms and all sorts of goodies
11:30 < kanzure> and sometimes these break and fuck up in really bad ways
11:30 < kanzure> really subtle really bad ways
11:31 < delinquentme> cancerous cells reproduce @ furious rate ( duh ) .. the reproduction causes the telomeres to wear away hella quick ... and when a cell rusn out of telomeres it self-destructs
11:31 < bdesk> kanzure: "Alex's talk will be divided in three parts. The first will explain the selective advantage of aging, or why biology evolved a genetic program to age."
11:31 < kanzure> bdesk: yeah
11:31 < delinquentme> bdesk, fuck biology :D
11:31 < delinquentme> i dont want to 
11:32 < bdesk> kanzure: you believe this?
11:32 < kanzure> bdesk: yeah, it's pretty clear.. hell look at molecular embryology
11:32 < kanzure> those cells don't just spontaneously form into a human
11:33 < delinquentme> ps.. di evolv ignore me bc i said sex?
11:33 < bdesk> kanzure: you think it might be possible to find a chemical which would disrupt the biologically evolved genetic program to age, at a point somewhere between adulthood and death?
11:34 < kanzure> disrupt in what way
11:34 < bdesk> or more basically, do you think that disrupting the biologically evolved genetic program to age is a valid approach to life extension?
11:34 < kanzure> there's lots of ways to disrupt genetics.. viruses, RNA silencing, nutrient starvation, diet, blah blah blah
11:35 < kanzure> yes i think it's worth our time and attention :P
11:35 < kanzure> but realize that aging is also something that is not directly genetically controlled as well
11:36 < kanzure> don't ostrich-face yourself into that
11:36 < kanzure> uh
11:36 < kanzure> pidgeon hole? there's another phrase there
11:36 < kanzure> pidgeotto hole
11:38 < kanzure> on another note,
11:38 < kanzure> there was an article out in the news recently about tom pals' work with those 150 SNPs that i linked to yesterday
11:38 < kanzure> the article briefly interviewed a few of the participants from the study, like the khan brothers
11:39 < delinquentme> SNPs?
11:39 < kanzure> turns out they own an investment firm http://www.kahnbrothers.com/
11:39 < kanzure> and they have been at it for 80 years or something and they just won't die
11:39 < kanzure> $500M under management (a respectable- but not awesome- sum)
11:40 < kanzure> the son of one of the khan bros. recently retired from the firm at age 74.. :P
11:40 < bdesk> wat a baby
11:40 < kanzure> delinquentme: single nucleotide polymorphisms.. basically SNPs tell you what allele you have in a specific spot on a gene in your genome
11:40 < kanzure> this is what 23andme.com looks at (for a limited subset of SNPs)
11:41 < delinquentme> ummm
11:41 < delinquentme> damn kanz you're a wealth of info haha
11:41 < kanzure> delinquentme: so this study by tom pals was to look at what interesting SNPs that centenarians (people older than 100 years) have that might be helping 'em out
11:41 < delinquentme> you've got all this shit stored?
11:42 < delinquentme> OH! i see
11:42 < kanzure> delinquentme: yeah if you bug me i'll re-upload the papers listed in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/longevity_papers.txt
11:42 < kanzure> here's the paper/supplemental material (with SNP list) http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2010/06/30/science.1190532.DC1/Sebastiani_SOM.pdf
11:42 < bdesk> kanzure: i bet the genes that make them not poor have been helping them out
11:42 < kanzure> oops it was tom perls not tom pals
11:43 < kanzure> "Genetic signatures of exceptional longevity in humans" 2010
11:43 < kanzure> bdesk: not all centenarians are investment bankers :P
11:43 < delinquentme> bdesk, LOL
11:43 < bdesk> kanzure: right but homeless are not centenarians
11:43 < delinquentme> INTERESTING question : du think theres a correlation between net worth and stress level??
11:43 < kanzure> yeah they tend to have families (apparently)
11:45 < delinquentme> BLUE ZONES!
11:45 < delinquentme> you guys know about that stuff
11:45 < kanzure> evolv: i should apologize, the channel isn't usually this awful.
11:45 < bdesk> ;_;
11:45 < delinquentme> theres also a high correlation between longevity and funny hats
11:45 < bdesk> delinquentme: haha
11:46 < delinquentme> @_@ is this bad for the channel??
11:46 < kanzure> this is low quality
11:46 < kanzure> yes
11:46 < delinquentme> really??
11:46 < bdesk> no it's always like this when i'm here.  oh wait...
11:46 < delinquentme> like i find this all fascinating
11:46 < kanzure> yes it is fascinating
11:46 < delinquentme> and incredibly pertinent to transhumanism
11:47 < delinquentme> im just sad that i think i pissed off a chan op??
11:47 < delinquentme> wasnt trying to do that -_-
11:47 < kanzure> you haven't pissed off anyone
11:48 < delinquentme> ?? he asked if i was troll lol
11:48 < delinquentme> im not trying to trollolol
11:48 < delinquentme> =[
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11:49 < bdesk> delinquentme: i think that was when you posted something about riding bikes
11:49 < delinquentme> lol!
11:49 < kanzure> brb someone should force me to summarize http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm when i get back
11:49 < delinquentme> i dont know whether to laugh or ... 
11:50 < delinquentme> i like prostitive inforcement
11:50 < delinquentme> they've got misformed alleles
11:51 < archels> delinquentme: tell us about your religious background.
11:52 < kanzure> nooo
11:52 < archels> too obvious?
11:53 < delinquentme> archels, im roman catholic
11:53 < archels> alright, well, go on
11:53  * archels grabs the popcorn
11:53 < evolv> I've been busy
11:54 < delinquentme> archels, thats it
11:54 < delinquentme> praise jesus i havnt been mislead
11:54 < archels> delinquentme, what is God to you?
11:54 < bdesk> kanzure: but i thought we loved drexler and hated merkle
11:55 < bdesk> or was it the other way around...
11:55 < uniqanomaly_> delinquentme: are you against contraception?
11:55 < bdesk> kanzure: o it was smalley nvm
11:55 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, i am contracontraception
11:55 < delinquentme> i just think that if what gods selling us is "everlasting life"
11:56 < delinquentme> why the fuck should we die to get it
11:56 < evolv> delinquentme, do you like the wang?
11:56 < uniqanomaly_> if you have doubts you're not true believer
11:57 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, oh yeah absolutely im not down w the pope being infallible 
11:57 < bdesk> kanzure: i dont believe that this is worse than normal
11:57 < uniqanomaly_> wtf of believer are you
11:57 < uniqanomaly_> you'll burn in hell
11:57 < delinquentme> oh i see hahah is evolv bring normalcy back?
11:57 < uniqanomaly_> i'm serious
11:58 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, ehhh thats a rough spot
11:58 < evolv> delinquentme, do you take any medication?
11:58 < evolv> aderol?
11:58 < evolv> xanax?
11:58 < kanzure> bdesk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqyZ9bFl_qg amuse yourself
11:58  * kanzure is now really gone/brb
11:58 < delinquentme> evolv, just mdma urethreally
11:59 < delinquentme> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz4lFeqJPdU
11:59 < uniqanomaly_> delinquentme: pope is god sent determinant of truth, you should know that
11:59 < delinquentme> O_O behold t3h majesty of god
11:59 < archels> kanzure: 360p? :\
12:00 < delinquentme> SLASH whats stated in the first comment in the above video
12:00 < delinquentme> uniqanomaly_, dont tell me what i believe OK!?
12:00 < delinquentme> lawlz
12:01 < uniqanomaly_> ok, it's yours integrity of identity at stake after all
12:01 < uniqanomaly_> just trying to help
12:02 < delinquentme> haha
12:02 < delinquentme> no im reformed
12:02 < delinquentme> born again agnostic
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12:05 < delinquentme> archels, are you dissapointed?
12:10 < delinquentme> SERIOUSLY as soon as i understand the breakdown of scales and what is inside what of the human cell/chromosome/dna/molecule actions .. im gonna inforgraphic that shit
12:10 < delinquentme> the way it is now is WAY to disparate 
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12:29 < delinquentme> HA
12:29 < delinquentme> i didnt know DNA was a molecule
12:32 < uniqanomaly_> delinquentme: yeah, make like >10 dimensional infographic with zoom for different levels of abstraction
12:33 < uniqanomaly_> breakthrough in visualization + many minds just blown
12:33 < delinquentme> i was thinking it would be simple enough to make a absolutely MASSIVE image .. and just do them to relative scale
12:37 < klafka> delinquentme, mdma urethrally, you should probably take it through DMSO absorption 
12:38 < delinquentme> klafka, the means justify the ends
12:38 < klafka> so you're saying you enjoy sticking drugs into your uretha more than you enjoy the feeling of the drugs?
12:40 < kanzure> mormon transhumanist association looking for a volunteer to play secretary http://news.transfigurism.org/2010/12/opening-for-volunteer-secretary.html
12:42 < delinquentme> wtf would ever make you want to be BOTH transhumanist AND mormon
12:43 < bdesk> if you wanted to troll
12:45 < delinquentme> lol
12:45 < delinquentme> oiy my head hurts
12:45 < delinquentme> i need a hot biologist
12:47 < bdesk> how about a secretary instead?  just start a catholic transhumanist association...
13:02 < delinquentme> yum!
13:22 < archels> bdesk: Isn't there a Mormon transhumanist association?
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13:29 < archels> http://transfigurism.org/
13:31 < uniqanomaly_> "What the fuck am I seeing?"
13:32 < uniqanomaly_> well, actually it's nice adaptation
13:32 < uniqanomaly_> 'adapt or die'
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 12 00:00:07 2010