--- Log opened Fri Dec 31 00:00:04 2010
00:21 < jrayhawk> re: all of these images rendered for each revision of a repo: oh, you're actually planning on keeping the old ones?
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01:33 < Jappe2> why was the channel relocated?
01:41 < joshcryer> So we can have /topic and other channel mode features.
01:42 < joshcryer> And (my opinion) opper was too lazy to type /cs op #hplusroadmap kanzure
01:43 < Jappe2> ok. my dog is dead but thanks
01:44 < joshcryer> :(
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05:47 < Lukas_> Good morning
05:48 < JayDugger> Good morning, Lukas.
05:48 < JayDugger> Contemplating your New Year's resolutions?
05:50 < Lukas_> Yes
05:50 < Lukas_> to actually get things (H+ realted) done
05:50 < Lukas_> I like to speculate, but you don't get things done doing that
05:50 < Lukas_> :)
05:51 < JayDugger> An excellent point.
05:51 < JayDugger> I suggest you write them down and post them where you can often review them.
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05:51 < JayDugger> Google Docs worked for me.
05:52 < Lukas_> that is a good idea
05:53 < Lukas_> right now I am just compiling free scientific journals for future reference
05:53 < Lukas_> I am currently looking into adeno-associated viruses
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05:54 < JayDugger> If you don't have a document management system more sophisticated than a directory-naming scheme, perhaps setting one up and consistently using it would make a good resolution for 2011.
05:55 < Lukas_> Agreed
05:55 < Lukas_> I've also got learning how to program on the list
05:56 < Lukas_> which should be interesting, as I've never touched any sort of programing before
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06:19 < Lukas_> Good morning phreedom
06:19 < phreedom> Lukas_: hi :)
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06:29 < Lukas_> Good morning uniqanomaly
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07:13 < JayDugger> Good morning, augur.
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08:54 < kanzure> jrayhawk: yes all old images have to be kept
08:56 < JayDugger> Have the ifixit repair guides come up in discussion?
08:57 < kanzure> yes
08:57 < kanzure> *shrug* i wasn't impressed. mac cowell was the one who first showed me.
08:57 < JayDugger> I'll check the logs at leisure, then.
08:57 < kanzure> russian cosmonaut AMA http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/etu2s/i_was_born_in_shchigry_ru_in_1932_i_worked_as_a/
08:59 < kanzure> ah fuck
08:59 < kanzure> lepht is in wired?
09:00 < kanzure> http://www.kurzweilai.net/transcending-the-human-diy-style?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=addd85d321-UA-946742-1&utm_medium=email
09:00 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/transcending-the-human-diy-style/
09:02 < JayDugger> And with comments of quality on par with YouTube.
09:02 < kanzure> i've said it before and i'll say it again:
09:02 < kanzure> 23:15 < kanzure> lepht is a bumbling moron who has a sick masochist need to cut herself and subsequently store subcutaneous shit
09:02 < kanzure> having said that, at least she/he knows about northpaw
09:03 < kanzure> also i'm pretty sure it's pete.clark@gmail.com
09:05 < JayDugger> I'd take her claims more seriously with another voice claiming success.
09:07 < JayDugger> I'd like to have the ability to directly sense electric fields, but not to the extent of slicing open my fingers.
09:08 < JayDugger> That seems crude, and the article communicates a tone of self-mutilation.
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09:15 < kanzure> well not only that, but lepht doesn't seem to understand good wireless implant design principles
09:15 < kanzure> hur dur "just put in some batteries, we can always cut it out again"
09:28 < JayDugger> Right. "First, do no harm" isn't all earwash.
09:49 < jrayhawk> Ah, rendering all revisions would be clumsily difficult with Ikiwiki.
09:51 < jrayhawk> i mean, you could get it to work by never deleting old copies, but it'd be impossible to rebuild from scratch in anything other than a horribly painful way.
09:51 < jrayhawk> and ikiwiki is update-oriented rather than commit-oriented anyway.
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10:09 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what about old compiled stuff? where do i store those pages so i don't have to recompile everything when a user wants to see an older version?
10:14 < jrayhawk> Well, with the transient underlay, you'd just use a portion of the commit string as part of the file namespace and never delete stuff
10:14 < jrayhawk> errr commit id
10:14 < kanzure> hrm. so when someone dumps a new git repo into the system i'll have to generate all of the old stuff before i let them loose on the content
10:15 < jrayhawk> Yeah, it's not a good idea to get Ikiwiki to do this.
10:16 < jrayhawk> You could fake it by making your own transient underlay.
10:16 < kanzure> keeping old compiled content around is probably a bad idea anyway, especially if these working directories might be multi-GB
10:16 < kanzure> except images.
10:17 < kanzure> which take substantially longer to compile (i imagine- my blah2png scripts are not instantaneous)
10:17 < jrayhawk> Well, it's not like it needs to be.
10:17 < jrayhawk> Instantaneous, that is.
10:21 < jrayhawk> Though underlays are only really worthwhile if you want them to be editable.
10:21 < kanzure> i'm still having trouble mapping your words back to things that make sense (underlay->inline include?)
10:23 < jrayhawk> An underlay is a directory that has content you intend to render/publish through Ikiwiki that is untracked by git and not part of the normal working directory.
10:23 < jrayhawk> /usr/share/ikiwiki/basewiki/ is an example
10:24 < kanzure> blah RU Sirius is yelling at me for not moving hplusmagazine.com yet.. "i'm sorry RU but some of us are not paid massive amounts of money to dick around"
10:24 < jrayhawk> If you have absolutely nothing in your ikiwiki working directory at all, basewiki, the default underlay, will still wind up being used.
10:24 < kanzure> i see.
10:25 < kanzure> i don't have a clear understanding of how many ikiwiki plugins i'm going to have to write to accomplish all this stuff
10:25 < kanzure> or what each of them will have to do to accomplish the otherwise obvious result.
10:25 < jrayhawk> The 'transient' plugin sticks an underlay in workingdir/.ikiwiki/ (which is the default ikiwiki metadata directory) transient/ for various other plugins to mess about in (recentchanges, autoindex, tag, whatever crap you intended to do)
10:26 < jrayhawk> You sound like you don't really know what your goals are, so I have no idea how to do what you want, either!
10:39 < jrayhawk> I can probably throw together some example plugins for some 'render current version of blah filetype' case if you provide me with the blah2png I should be using
10:42 < kanzure> i can provide you with blah2png but there's a lot of dependencies (like opencascade) that are a huge pain in the ass
10:43 < kanzure> fenn or i wrote some scripts to deal with the pain in the ass but i don't think you should bother anyway
10:44 < kanzure> 1) fix for rendering indices in some custom way (i.e. not the apache default) with some sort of default site-wide template across all ikiwikis -- i.e., showing a few of the rendered images for the current HEAD
10:44 < kanzure> 2) image rendering on post-update and storage of previous images from the last revision as well
10:45 < kanzure> 3) when a new repo is created the images from previous revisions should be generated as well
10:45 < kanzure> does that sound comprehensive over what i've been mumbling about
10:47 < kanzure> fyi blah2png is in skdb.git under import_tools/ .. well, iges2png and pov2png; there's also iges2stl and stl2pov.. i also have some files somewhere for the stl2pov that thingiverse.com uses
10:50 < kanzure> (i'm p. sure that first stl2pov in skdb.git is my version and that it somehow differs from thingiverse-brand stl2pov)
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10:53 < kanzure> get yer skinny ass back in here
10:53 < kanzure> oh he really is globally offline.
11:10 < kanzure> http://ulule.com/ alternative to kickstarter and indiegogo
11:10 < kanzure> http://vimgolf.com/ because apparently ninjas play golf?
11:13 < kanzure> jrayhawk: do you have suggestions for fixing reprap.git and getting it operational again?
11:15 < kanzure> open science business models http://www.slideshare.net/technollama/open-science-business-models
11:23 < kanzure> i linkedumped some of the "public patent license" stuff http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/21f7ecf503cfaab8
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11:30 < kanzure> cathal garvey's 2010 review re: diybio http://letters.cunningprojects.com/?p=142
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11:38 < augur> JayDugger: hi?
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11:57 < jrayhawk> no, you'd know vastly more about the reprap.git situation than anyone else in the universe
11:58 < jrayhawk> oh no wait that was nanoengineer you sunk so much time on
12:00 < kanzure> right
12:00 < kanzure> reprap.git was a typical git/svn gateway until jmil did.. something? for some reason? somehow
12:03 < kanzure> haha this is such a clusterfuck of misunderstanding http://www.pakalertpress.com/2010/12/31/the-transhumanist-and-police-state-agenda-in-pop-music/
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12:20 < kanzure> "colonizing the red planet how-to guide" http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/12/31/1747218
12:27 < jrayhawk> 'Will.I.Am starts his verse by saying "Imma be the upgraded new negro", which pretty much sums up the transhumanist philosophy.'
12:28 < jrayhawk> bryan when can transhumanism turn me black
12:28 < JayDugger> Been done.
12:28 < jrayhawk> how much does it cost
12:29 < JayDugger> I don't know. Google J.H. Griffin's 1961 non-fiction book "Black Like Me."
12:30 < JayDugger> Google Books has only a partial copy, so check worldcat.org for your nearest library with a copy.
12:30 < JayDugger> Or the usual suspects, if you've an antipathy to dead-tree textx.
12:30 < jrayhawk> "Griffin underwent a regimen of large oral doses of the anti-vitiligo drug Methoxsalen, trade name Oxsoralen, and spending up to fifteen hours daily under an ultraviolet lamp."
12:31 < jrayhawk> this seems like an unpleasant lifestyle
12:31 < JayDugger> From what I hear, 1961 generally sucked.
12:32 < JayDugger> I lack first-hand knowledge, but the Cold War kept getting worse and no one foresaw a pleasant ending.
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12:42 < kanzure> jrayhawk: you're black to me, you're black to me.
12:42 < kanzure> hi industromatic
12:42 < jrayhawk> straight outta compton
12:43 < kanzure> http://www.di.fm/mp3/vocaltrance.pls pimping my tunes
12:43 < kanzure> focus fusion society is spamming my inbox. :(
12:44 < kanzure> something about a fusion reactor.. new yearss.. probably an ignorable threat
12:44 < JayDugger> Hope springs eternal.
12:44 < JayDugger> Did they want money?
12:44 < joshcryer> Ugh.
12:45 < joshcryer> I just read that Lepht Anonym article.
12:45 < joshcryer> I thought kanzure was fucking around when he said she did that shit because I couldn't find anything about it.
12:45 < joshcryer> kanzure, QuantumG has hopes for FF.
12:46 < joshcryer> I gave up on IEC fusion awhile ago. Stupid pipe dream.
12:46 < Lukas_> who is Lepht Anonym?
12:47 < joshcryer> Crazy transhuman blogger, kanzure posted a Wired article: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/transcending-the-human-diy-style/
12:50 < kanzure> joshcryer: i'm pretty sure lepht is pete clark <pete.clark@gmail.com>
12:50 < kanzure> Lukas_: nobody of consequence
12:50 < kanzure> i'm all for rare earth magnet impalnts or northpaw, that's ok i guess
12:51 < kanzure> but when lepht was implanting some battery-powered devices, that's just stupid
12:51 < kanzure> quinn norton or todd huffman needs to stand up and talk about why their implants are a better idea than battery-powered crap
12:51 < JayDugger> What implants do they use?
12:51 < Lukas_> O.o ... DIY implants?
12:52 < kanzure> quinn and todd? i think they both have neodymium magnets in their finger tips
12:52 < Lukas_> with what tools?
12:52 < JayDugger> Ah.
12:52 < kanzure> Lukas_: lepht is a masochist so he just uses a knife and no pain killers
12:52 < joshcryer> kanzure, I'd hit it. If it wasn't crazy.
12:52 < Lukas_> O_O
12:52 < Lukas_> that is ....
12:52 < Lukas_> dedicated
12:53 < kanzure> no he's stupid
12:53 < Lukas_> yes
12:53 < jrayhawk> i wonder if lepht prefers 'it' or 'they' better
12:53 < Lukas_> I was trying to avoid that word
12:53 < kanzure> diybio discussion is over here: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/d6c92bbd5ec77280
12:53 < joshcryer> But I kinda agree with this statement, in a completely different way, “The existing transhumanist movement is lame. It’s nano everything. It’s just ideas,” she says. “Anyone can do this. This is kitchen stuff.”
12:53 < kanzure> jrayhawk: oh man, in the 90s transhumanists had all sorts of shit. 'vir' 'vit' 'vem'
12:53 < Lukas_> so do I
12:53 < kanzure> joshcryer: so?
12:53 < kanzure> that's no reason to popularize lepht
12:53 < joshcryer> I thought I was being critical.
12:54 < kanzure> the vast majority of transhumanists that are serious about this are not advocating bad medical practices
12:54 < joshcryer> But it's not cool to call a person who prefers "she" a "he."
12:54 < kanzure> oh please
12:54 < kanzure> next you're going to tell me martine rothblatt is not a guy
12:54 < Lukas_> Wait, 'he' is a she?
12:54 < joshcryer> Lukas_, that's the running theory.
12:55 < kanzure> http://google.com/search?q=lepht+pete+clark+gmail
12:55 < Lukas_> Insane, but I appreciate the gusto
12:56 < kanzure> jrayhawk: why is Lukas_ failing to see the problem with this
12:56 < kanzure> i'm the last person to be against diy transhumanism but there's obviously something very wrong here
12:56 < jrayhawk> I'm noticing a Pete Clark 'lepht' that sounds nothing like self-mutilating 'lepht'
12:56 < kanzure> i.e. this is credibility damaging in the sense that "diy transhumanists? oh they are just masochists"
12:57 < kanzure> i don't particularly care about credibility too foten
12:57 < kanzure> *often
12:57 < joshcryer> I just see comments by kanzure saying Pete Clark is 'lepht.'
12:57 < kanzure> joshcryer: that was because i sent the email today
12:57 < kanzure> jrayhawk: a public figurehead for diytranshumanism should be relatively level headed when it comes to thinking through their plans and strategies
12:58 < kanzure> right?
12:59 < kanzure> the article in wired seems to be mostly about northpaw or the magnets so at least there's that.
12:59 < kanzure> instead of being about the other implants (the ones i consider to be dumb)
12:59 < jrayhawk> can you give me some evidence that pete clark is the same lepht as crazy lepht
12:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk: one sec
12:59 < Lukas_> kanzure:  what alternative do you suggest?
12:59 < joshcryer> I will wait to see her speek at CCC to see if she's crazy.
12:59 < kanzure> Lukas_: transduction coils
12:59 < kanzure> Lukas_: you do *not* implant battery-powered devices just so you can go dig them up later..
13:00 < Lukas_> oww
13:00 < Lukas_> hrm
13:01 < Lukas_> Does this person have a blog or something similar?
13:01 < Tyrant91101> uhh you guys really think the time has come for DIY transhumanism?
13:01 < kanzure> Lukas_: yes
13:01 < kanzure> Tyrant91101: oh a long time ago.. just not lepht's masochism
13:01 < kanzure> anyway here are the previous logs:
13:02 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/lepht_crap.txt
13:02 < kanzure> jrayhawk: still backtracing :x
13:04 < jrayhawk> Yeah, see, http://twitter.com/lepht_anonym is clearly crazy lepht, whereas http://twitter.com/lepht is clearly pete clark lepht
13:05 < kanzure> hmm i wish i would have written this down somewhere
13:06 < kanzure> basically it was because lepht was in some membership database related to humanityplus
13:07 < joshcryer> There's only one way to find out.
13:07 < joshcryer> Someone go to CCCC and grope them after they speak.
13:07 < joshcryer> Disclaimer: if you get assualt charges this wasn't my idea.
13:07 < JayDugger> You could attend and ask.
13:08 < kanzure> okay i should probably retract that pete clark/lepht statement
13:08 < JayDugger> You're less likely to start a fight with a question than with a grope.
13:08 < JayDugger> Yeah, let's not end 2010's conversation on a low point.
13:09 < joshcryer> Hey, the Wired photographer took a good adams apple exposing pic.
13:09 < Lukas_> If we want the face of DIY Transhumanism to change, we should do it ourselves
13:09 < joshcryer> Which exposes no adams apple as far as I can tell.
13:09 < kanzure> Lukas_: what?
13:09 < joshcryer> JayDugger, CCCC looks so fun, I wish I could attend.
13:09 < kanzure> i don't think you can compete in terms of shock value with someone willing to stab themselves to death
13:09 < Lukas_> there is no reason why a person like lepht is the face of diy transhumanism when you guys exist
13:10 < Lukas_> I am sure you guys can do much better, in a much more responsible way
13:12 < joshcryer> Yeah, kanzure does have a point. Northpaw = oh cute ankle bracelet. Southpaw = insane cutter who Believes (TM).
13:12 < jrayhawk> yeah frankly i find the bmezine type to be way more spectacular transhumanists than you guys
13:12 < joshcryer> I'm watching a Northpaw video, and the presenter is just... dorky. :)
13:13 < Lukas_> link?
13:13 < joshcryer> Nothing against him, I just think a GPS style system would be cooler.
13:13 < joshcryer> http://vimeo.com/11912761
13:13 < Lukas_> thanks
13:14 < kanzure> jrayhawk: http://bmezine.com/ ? yeah probably
13:14 < joshcryer> jrayhawk, I'm concerned that bmezine types might be watering down the idea of transhumanism.
13:14 < joshcryer> But I won't exclude them for sake of avoiding purity arguemnts.
13:15 < kanzure> "body shock" just doesn't mean the same thing to me :/
13:15 < joshcryer> Hehehe!
13:15 < joshcryer> Eric Boyd proposed using Northpaws to control people who are blindfolded. And invisible mazes.
13:15 < kanzure> although i imagine if you had "the hulk" that would be a form of body shock haha
13:15 < joshcryer> That's some cool stuff, I admit.
13:16 < joshcryer> See, from a purity standpoint, Eric Boyd / Northpaw is closer to my idea of using technology to transform humans than, body modification with implanted magnets.
13:17 < kanzure> implanted magnets is higher up the totem pole than plastic surgery to look like a gorilla or feline imho
13:17 < kanzure> wait
13:17 < Lukas_> XD
13:18 < kanzure> i saw todd once trying to explain to some chick what his magnets were like for him
13:18 < joshcryer> From a technical standpoint maybe, I mean, if it works. I'm skeptical you can get a good sensation of magnetic fields.
13:18 < kanzure> he was trying really hard to explain it
13:18 < kanzure> then he said "it gives me access to a plain of sensation and experience that you don't feel" and gave up
13:18 < joshcryer> Heh
13:18 < JayDugger> That was a cop-out.
13:18 < joshcryer> Is there a risk of them snapping to metal?
13:19 < JayDugger> Probably not more than once.
13:19 < kanzure> fenn: you around?
13:19 < JayDugger> How many tries did it take you to learn slamming a car door on your hand hurts? ;)
13:19 < Lukas_> cryptochrome makes more sense to me
13:19 < joshcryer> JayDugger, far too many. :(
13:20 < joshcryer> I've done that at least a dozen times in my life, which doesn't sound like much, but it happens.
13:21 < joshcryer> I bet stick on Nd magnets could give you a similar sensation without implanting.
13:22 < joshcryer> Imma try it.
13:23 < Lukas_> that sounds more reasonable than going at your arm with a knife
13:24 < Lukas_> are there any decent quality glues that can be used on the skin with minimal damage?
13:25 < kanzure> huh? why glue
13:25 < Lukas_> I use the term loosely
13:25 < joshcryer> OK I tested to see if Nd even had a response near em fields, it does. That's very interesting, I can imagine that under the skin there would be a response.
13:25 < Lukas_> something that can stick to the skin
13:25 < joshcryer> Going to try scotch tape as a test.
13:26 < Lukas_> .... -__-
13:26 < Lukas_> that is a better idea
13:27 < joshcryer> Well you had an interesting question, I mean, if you wanted it to last, say, all day. You could use a sports adhesive: http://www.amazon.com/Spenco-2nd-Skin-Adhesive-Knit/dp/B0012YMEUW
13:28 < Lukas_> thank you
13:30 < Lukas_> now to obtain some magnets
13:31 < joshcryer> Heh, I look ridiculous right now, but I have magnets taped to each finger tip.
13:32 < joshcryer> It does work, but it's very very subtle.
13:33 < joshcryer> A better solution for fingertips is using latex gloves tips.
13:33 < joshcryer> Lukas_, anything other than those $1 store headphones should have Nd magnets, btw.
13:34 < Lukas_> O.o
13:34 < Lukas_> excellent
13:34 < joshcryer> The earbud types.
13:34 < Lukas_> now when you say subtle, how subtle is it?
13:34 < joshcryer> If you have any broken ones laying around (which everyone invariably does), snap 'em open and see if there's a metallic (rather than ceramic-looking) magnet inside.
13:34 < joshcryer> Extremely subtle, there is definite movement, which is both visual, and I can feel it.
13:35 < Lukas_> there are a thousand in my house
13:35 < Lukas_> thanks
13:35 < Lukas_> hm
13:35 < joshcryer> At first I thought it was vibration, so I did a test on a wire with no juice running through it and another with some juice, and one with a shitload of juice.
13:35 < joshcryer> I can confirm that there is definite response and you can feel it.
13:35 < Lukas_> sweet
13:35 < joshcryer> So my skepticism is removed a bit.
13:35 < Lukas_> I am off to find some magnets
13:36 < joshcryer> Fun. :D
13:36 < joshcryer> Ooh. My breaker box is between me and the kitchen.
13:36 < joshcryer> brb
13:41 < joshcryer> A real neat trick would be to make a glove that would chart the em fields and then give you a response you can feel, kinda like the Northpaw, but somewhat more refined.
13:41 < joshcryer> Couldn't feel anything near the breaker box. And I didn't want to open it for safety reasons.
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13:42 < Lukas_> hmm, that's curious
13:42 < joshcryer> 1 watt wire required me to touch it, a 10 watt wire required me to be about a cm from it.
13:42 < joshcryer> Before I had a good sensation.
13:43 < joshcryer> (unshielded cords for appliances)
13:45 < joshcryer> s/watt/amp
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13:49 < Lukas_> I'm using an old PS2 controller, it should have more magnets
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13:51 < joshcryer> Nice, dual shock?
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13:51 < Lukas_> Yes
13:51 < Lukas_> I have too many of those things lying around
13:53 < joshcryer> Looks like it might have Nd magnets inside.
13:53 < Lukas_> It better
13:53 < Lukas_> those things were freakin' expensive
13:54 < joshcryer> Actually maybe not, the google search is misleading.
13:54 < niftyzero1> Foresight institute challenge grant, ending today: http://www.foresight.org/challenge/
13:54 < joshcryer> Don't snap it apart if it ain't broke, hehe.
13:55 < Lukas_> grr
13:55 < Lukas_> It's broken anyway
13:55 < Lukas_> looks like I am going to find out myself
13:55 < joshcryer> niftyzero, I'll make a contribution to the Foresight insititute when they fire their idiot blogger.
13:56 < joshcryer> Lukas_, if the magnets aren't metalic / look like ceremics / black don't take the motor apart, it could be useful later on.
13:56 < joshcryer> Those magnets are far too weak to have a response I imagine.
13:56 < niftyzero1> josh - give me more specific feedback, and I'll pass it on
13:57 < joshcryer> niftyzero1, let me make sure I'm not jumping the gun with that statement.
13:58 < Lukas_> alright, I'll settle with the headphones
13:58 < joshcryer> (I stopped reading Foresight many months ago)
13:58 < joshcryer> Lukas_, earbuds are very hard to 'fix' so I just toss 'em after salvaging the magnets. It's really led to quite a collection of magnets. :)
13:58 < niftyzero1> ok
14:01 < Lukas_> there are a lot of wasteful kids in my house, fortunately that leads to lots and lots of dead electronics
14:01 < Lukas_> the headphones are cheap and dead anyway
14:01 < Lukas_> :)
14:02 < joshcryer> niftyzero1, J. Storrs Hall made a lot of crappy politically charged posts last year and it annoyed me, it appears he hasn't posted in awhile though.
14:02 < niftyzero1> he is no longer with foresight
14:03 < niftyzero1> christine peterson is now acting president...
14:03 < joshcryer> Apologies for making a snap statement like that, then.
14:04 < joshcryer> Someone should tell him to change his CV.
14:04 < niftyzero1> no problem, good to get feedback
14:05 < joshcryer> niftyzero1, imo politics should be minimized to attract the largest spectrum of people.
14:05 < Lukas_> alright, I've got the magnets out
14:05 < Lukas_> best place to test?
14:05 < niftyzero1> yeah, foresight should be pretty neutral on politics, since that's not its mission
14:07 < joshcryer> Lukas_, extension cord with several appliances hooked up was my best result.
14:08 < joshcryer> Lukas_, because it's unshielded.
14:08 < Lukas_> thanks
14:15 < Lukas_> I suspect that the tape I am using interferes with the sensation, I can see the tape lifting up due to the magnetic field, but I barely feel it
14:15 < Lukas_> it is quite subtle
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14:18 < joshcryer> Yes very I thought it was a placebo at first.
14:18 < joshcryer> (my anticipation of moving an Nd magnet near a potential magnetic field)
14:18 < kanzure> joshcryer: who is their idiot blogger?
14:18 < kanzure> j. storrs hall is no longer with foresight
14:18 < joshcryer> kanzure, J. Storrs Hall, who apparently left.
14:18 < joshcryer> kanzure, I said I hadn't read their site in months.
14:18 < kanzure> ah
14:19 < kanzure> looks like niftyzero1 covered the basics anyway
14:19 < joshcryer> <joshcryer> (I stopped reading Foresight many months ago)
14:19 < joshcryer> Yeah, sorry, seems you're not the only one making snap statements today. >:P
14:22 < joshcryer> Lukas_, so anyway I have two extension cords plugged in so I tested it on one which has juice flowing through it and another that doesn't, just to be sure. It was a kind of blind experiment.
14:24 < Lukas_> I'll try again later
14:26 < joshcryer> Lukas_, I believe if you tune yourself to it over time you'll imagine that it's a stronger effect than it is.
14:27 < Lukas_> that is what I am afraid of
14:28 < joshcryer> Lukas_, not that that's necessarily a bad thing, just fine tuning your brain.
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14:30 < Lukas_> I just want to make sure the experiment is as neutral as possible
14:31 < joshcryer> I do not believe the effect is good enough to implant under my skin.
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14:32 < joshcryer> And I refuse to delude myself or invest myself in tuning in to some sort of thing that can be better accomplished through extra-sensory electronic inputs.
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14:35 < Lukas_> I agree 100%
14:35 < Lukas_> there are better forms of magnetic sensing
14:36 < Lukas_> http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/cryptochrome/
14:36 < Lukas_> being able to see it is much better IMO
14:36 < Lukas_> and working on the molecular level seems more .... elegant
14:37 < joshcryer> Hmm that is really neat.
14:45 < Lukas_> yup
14:45 < Lukas_> sometime in the future I plan on self experimenting with an adeno-associated virus
14:45 < joshcryer> Hmm, I believe you will make lepht look sane, at that point. :)
14:46 < Lukas_> the implant DNA on chromosome 19 (in humans) almost 100% of the time - and there are no experiments (to my knowledge) that produce an immune response or cancer
14:47 < Lukas_> I think it was the same vector  that was used to give those red-green color blind monkeys the red and green photoreceptor genes
14:48 < joshcryer> Ahh
14:48 < Lukas_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adeno-associated_virus
14:48 < Lukas_> 68 sources at the bottom
14:49 < Lukas_> I think there has also been human clinical trials
14:50 < Lukas_> Yea, I would make lepht insane, but it would be a major one-up, and without any needless pain
14:50 < Lukas_> :)
15:25 < joshcryer> Yes it would be a major coup.
15:30 < joshcryer> You need another person to take it though.
15:30 < joshcryer> Just for scientific verification.
15:30 < joshcryer> Is it reversable?
15:32 < kanzure> damn it why does this stream have a rickroll remix :(
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15:38 < joshcryer> I just tweeted Lepht Anonym to see if there was video of their CCCC talk.
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15:42 < Lukas_> You could use site specific knock-out procedures
15:42 < Lukas_> but I am unsure that it would work
15:43 < Lukas_> the easiest way to do it would be to grow a cell line (from yourself), then infected with the virus
15:43 < Lukas_> and observe
15:44 < joshcryer> I just read Lepht's FAQ. They are unaware that all electromagnetic radiation is composed of photons.
15:44 < Lukas_> yup
15:44 < Lukas_> just different wavelengths
15:44 < joshcryer> I guess we should blame Feynman for not caring about calling photons light.
15:45 < Lukas_> I think natural photoreceptors can 'see' anything weaker than heat (infrared)
15:46 < joshcryer> all photons != visible light, but Feynman preferred to call all electromagnetic radiation light. But he did try to make things easier for the commoner to understand, which is why he was awesome.
15:49 < industromatic> I've enjoyed reading Feynman.  Too bad I missed him playing the bongos.
15:49 < Lukas_> O.o
15:49 < Lukas_> he did this live?
15:50 < Lukas_> I've only seen one video of it
15:50 < joshcryer> This is his best lecture series imo: http://vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8
15:51 < Lukas_> thanks
15:51 < joshcryer> Here's his bongo playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKTSaezB4p8
15:51 < joshcryer> What a wonderful person.
15:51 < Lukas_> thanks
15:52 < Lukas_> I also think magnetism is effected by photons
15:52 < Lukas_> (hence birds being able to see magnetic fields)
15:54 < joshcryer> Faraday effect maybe?
15:54 < joshcryer> Not sure.
15:55 < joshcryer> I admit I didn't read that entire page.
15:55 < kanzure> "virtual photons" bah
15:57 < joshcryer> What would you prefer?
15:59 < Lukas_> To be honest, I have no idea
16:00 < joshcryer> I was asking kanzure if he had a different explaination for virtual photons.
16:01 < Lukas_> oh, sorry
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16:14 < industromatic> Thanks for the RPFeynman bongo youtube.  The guy next to him wasn't too old -- if I'd have clued in faster, I could have been there at something like that.
16:28 < kanzure> joshcryer: no i don't
16:28 < kanzure> but it's a little unfortunate that feynman didn't bother to come up with something better
16:28 < kanzure> i mean he kind of gave up about that since he figured his calculations were exact so it didn't matter
16:30 < joshcryer> Fair enough, it's remarkable that he came up with anything, imvho. The lectures I posted are really a great background for it.
16:31 < joshcryer> BTW, Plinkett finally reviewed Revenge of the Sith: http://www.redlettermedia.com/sith.html
16:31 < kanzure> industromatic: i sent something to your inbox
16:31 < kanzure> sorry for the pdf file :(
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17:45 < Lukas_> I am signing out for the night, you guys have an excellent new year
17:46 < joshcryer> You too Lukas_.
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17:53 < joshcryer> /me joins #freenode-newyears
18:20 < Tyrant91101> happy new years people
18:20 < Tyrant91101> have a great night
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18:44 < Lukas_> The whole sleeping deal isn't working out for me
18:45 < kanzure> Utopiah: do you have any favorite ranking/scoring algorithms for social .. site.. stuff?
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20:23 < QuantumG> joshcryer: I think FF will produce scientific proof of sustainable fusion and no-one will care
20:43 < joshcryer> QuantumG, I will care!
20:43 < joshcryer> Are you calling me a nobody?
20:43 < QuantumG> you won't care
20:43 < QuantumG> I bet
20:45 < QuantumG> you'll say: pfft.. all they've done is demonstrate they can get 166% more heat than a hypothetical 100% efficient electric heater
20:45 < joshcryer> There's no such thing as a hypothetical 100% efficient electric heater because they release light. :P
20:46 < QuantumG> everyone will say that.. and anyone working in the fusion field will say: that's impressive, but look how low the power levels are.. you can barely turn on a light bulb with that much electricity.
20:46 < joshcryer> As long as they can get more than 150% more energy than they put in we can use a brayton cycle generator to make energy.
20:46 < joshcryer> Thus they will have succeeded.
20:47 < joshcryer> No you'd chain them, a whole bank of the things, thousands of them.
20:47 < QuantumG> once they achieve net heat they still have to achieve net electrical power.. which is a hard engineering problem.  Once they've achieved that they'll have the most expensive AA battery ever built.
20:48 < QuantumG> they'll have to scale it up before anyone will care.
20:48 < QuantumG> and who even knows if they can scale it up
20:48 < joshcryer> If they achieve net heat there will be a lot of people trying to reproduce it.
20:49 < joshcryer> Already there are pinch type devices being experimented with in dozens of countries.
20:49 < joshcryer> (in that respect FF has already beat Polywell- there are no Polywell prototypes being build afaik, other than the Navy one)
20:50 < QuantumG> yeah, that's what I'm saying.  For a *decade* we will live with the knowledge that net heat fusion has been demonstrated and then they'll say "hey, we got net power" WOW!  YEAH!  "at low low power levels, you couldn't even power a toaster with it" OH.
20:51 < joshcryer> OK that's fair enough.
20:51 < QuantumG> "we just need $100M more to make a reactor"
20:51 < joshcryer> But put it this way, I have *no* interest in even *contemplating* how to build a Polywell.
20:51 < joshcryer> If they announce net heat building a FF will be my *primary life interest*.
20:51 < QuantumG> step 1: build or acquire a giant vacuum chamber.
20:52 < QuantumG> (for Polywell)
20:52 < QuantumG> I *could* be interested in that step.. but not for doing Polywell
20:53 < QuantumG> whereas step 1 for FF: acquire shitloads of capacitors for as cheap as you can and learn how to wire them up to make giant ass sparks that make the Tesla coil guys envious
20:54 < joshcryer> Heh
20:56 < superkuh> I have 24 * 30kV 2nF capacitors and a 15 micron 2-stage vacuum pump shipping here now. :)
20:57 < joshcryer> Are you planning to build a FF?
20:58 < superkuh> Not with the capacitors; those are for a laser. But the vacuum pump will be used for playing with the pyroelectric crystals I have grown/am growing to try pyroelectric fusion.
20:58 < joshcryer> Nice. :)
21:00 < joshcryer> QuantumG, what are they up to now?
21:05 < QuantumG> FF?
21:05 < QuantumG> They're trying various techniques to increase the yield of D-D fusion
21:06 < QuantumG> they haven't switched to pB11 yet
21:06 < superkuh> Last I heard it was changing the strength orientation of the external field to impart 'the right' helicity to the magnetic field.
21:07 < QuantumG> yeah, and other stuff.. like not losing power in the switches
21:08 < QuantumG> http://focusfusion.org/index.php/site/category/C73/
21:09 < QuantumG> http://focusfusion.org/index.php/site/article/how_will_we_get_there_from_here/
21:09 < QuantumG> "How will LPP go from their current 1/12 of a Joule of fusion energy to 33,000 Joules of fusion energy?"
21:11 < QuantumG> so, when they publish (and no-one cares) they'll be putting 100,000 joules into the shot and getting out 133,000 joules
21:11 < QuantumG> in: electric  out: heat
21:12 < QuantumG> wtf is a joule?  1 joule = one watt for one second
21:14 < QuantumG> so if you put 100,000 joules into a 100 watt light bulb, it'd power it for ~16.6 minutes
21:15 < QuantumG> which is fun and all, but they're assuming that electrical recovery of the heat will only be 80% efficient..
21:16 < QuantumG> in: 100kJ electric  out: 106.4kJ electric
21:16 < QuantumG> (say, around 2015)
21:17 < QuantumG> 6400J = 100 watt light bulb for about a minute.
21:17 < QuantumG> of course, if you can do >1 shots per second then that'll be just fine for running your house.
21:18 < QuantumG> (well, kinda, I'm sure the power conditioning would be a pain)
21:19 < QuantumG> superkuh: how much did those capacitors cost ya?
21:21 < superkuh> IT was a great deal. $8 for 6, $32 shipped.
21:21 < joshcryer> Haha
21:22 < joshcryer> superkuh, I am American and I read that differently, as in "it was a great deal of money."
21:22 < joshcryer> Rather than "it was a great bargain."
21:25 < QuantumG> each one can store 0.00003 joules
21:25 < superkuh> 0.9 joules total.
21:25 < QuantumG> how do you figure?
21:25 < superkuh> 0.5*0.002*(30)^2
21:25 < superkuh> Er...
21:26 < superkuh> *24 = 21.6 j
21:26 < QuantumG> I thought the total energy storage of a capacitor was 0.5 * V * Q
21:26 < superkuh> 1/2(Q)(V)^2
21:26 < superkuh> I used uF and kV.
21:26 < superkuh> It balances.
21:26 < QuantumG> oh, C not Q
21:27 < QuantumG> 0.5 * C * V^2
21:27 < superkuh> Sorry, yeah, not Q.
21:29 < superkuh> It was apparently a mis-listing by the seller. They've updated it.
21:29 < superkuh> But they shipped mine for that price.
21:30 < superkuh> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360329938824 ($8 before, $24 now)
21:39 < QuantumG> 0.9 joules each
21:40 < QuantumG> so you'd need at least 10,000 of them to hit 90,000 joules
21:40 < QuantumG> (man I'm tired, that should be 100,000 of them)
21:41 < QuantumG> one has to assume 2nF is not the most efficient way to go about it
21:45 < QuantumG> 0.5 * 0.01 * 50^2 = 12.5
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21:45 < QuantumG> 100+ $0.35 each
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21:47 < QuantumG> soldering banks of them together wouldn't be much fun but it looks cheaper than using those kV capacitors
21:50 < QuantumG> 0.5 * 55 * 2.5^2 = 171.875
21:50 < QuantumG> 100+ $14.7 each
21:50 < QuantumG> super capacitors baby
21:51 < QuantumG> http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=RE6704&CATID=51&form=CAT&SUBCATID=861
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21:53 < QuantumG> $8553 to get over 100,000 Joules
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21:55 < superkuh> Luckily the chinese company that makes those caps will design to order.
21:55 < superkuh> A peer from another IRC network highly recommends them.
21:55 < superkuh> Super capacitors have too high of internal series resistance to do any pulse work.
21:56 < QuantumG> yeah, as usual there's no spec sheet for the part
22:03 < joshcryer> How about flywheels?
22:05 < QuantumG> how do you get an electric pulse out of that?
22:05 < superkuh> The jargon is 'compulsator'.
22:05 < QuantumG> (similarly with coils)
22:06 < QuantumG> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensated_pulsed_alternator
22:06 < superkuh> Compensated pulse alternator. In general inductive supplies are better if you're driving a plasma load because they're current sources and won't behave weirdly with the negative resistance of a plasma to make spark channels instead of glow discharge.
22:07 < QuantumG> that's one of the things I tend to think about with the whole "net heat vs net power" thing of focus fusion
22:08 < QuantumG> if you can use the net heat to power a turbine, and you want a turbine for non-power generation purposes, then does it really make sense to go after pB11?
22:09 < QuantumG> FF may demonstrate net heat with D-D before they move on to pB11.
22:09 < joshcryer> pB11 has too many benefits to ignore, low neutron sources, etc etc blah blah.
22:09 < QuantumG> if they do that (and remember, no-one will care), then maybe you could make a nice turbo pump around it.
22:10 < QuantumG> pfft, neutron sources.  Like anyone is close enough to an unmanned rocket to care.
22:10 < QuantumG> the fuel tank alone is sufficient shielding for the payload.
22:12 < QuantumG> top to bottom: payload -> D-D tank -> fuel tank -> turbo pump -> FuFo -> Nozzle
22:13 < QuantumG> the turbo pump doubles as a compulsator to do the electrical shots into the FuFo
22:13 < QuantumG> hot gas lines flow back from the FuFo to power the turbo pump
22:16 < superkuh> Would the mass flow of a focus fusion device would be useful for a turbo pump? Or is it just heating a thermally connected loop?
22:17 < QuantumG> in the simplest design you're just heating the coolant ("fuel tank" is a misnomer)
22:20 < QuantumG> the helium-3 and neutrons are just waste that have to be cleared from the FuFo while new deuterium is added.
22:20 < QuantumG> (not that the neutrons need any help getting out of dodge)
22:24 < QuantumG> http://www.xlrotor.com/Paper_PDFs/PR%20216,%20Lab%20testing%20of%20CCEMG.pdf  40MJ compulsator
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22:28 < superkuh> It'd need some sort of pulse compression network to work for focus fusion directly. That's expensive capacitors or heavy metglas saturable inductors.
22:28 < superkuh> A lot of complexity.
22:28 < QuantumG> would you?  that paper seems to indicate they're getting insanely sharp pulses from their compulsator
22:29 < QuantumG> what I'm seeing here is that a standard turbopump can be upgraded to perform the job of a compulsator and provide the pulses.. and that the people doing compulsators now are freakin' amateurs in comparison to the people who do turbopumps :)
22:30 < genehacker> you see focus fusion's new plasmoids?
22:31 < genehacker> wait a turbopump? as in turbomolecular pump?
22:32 < superkuh> It looks like their FWHM ~half a second.
22:32 < superkuh> As, yeah, some milliseconds. No seconds, I misread the graph.
22:32 < QuantumG> most turbopumps are now centrifugal .. which is a two step process of speeding up the fluid and then diffusing to get high pressure.  I figure only the first half is needed for a heat exchanger rocket.
22:32 < superkuh> Still too long.
22:33 < genehacker> oh
22:33 < genehacker> that sort of turbopump
22:35 < QuantumG> 2/3 of the gas generator goes away too.. you literally only need the turbine.
22:36 < QuantumG> 3/5 of the turbopump is there just to make combustion work
22:36 < genehacker> then put the turbine in high vacuum and connect the turbine to an AC generator to turn it into a compulsator?
22:37 < QuantumG> essentially, but you still want to pump the coolant
22:38 < genehacker> why not just a broken turbomolecular pump instead?
--- Log closed Sat Jan 01 00:00:04 2011