--- Log opened Wed Apr 20 00:00:10 2011
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00:34 < kanzure> http://openfarmtech.org/weblog/2011/04/looking-for-fabricators/#more-2952
00:35 < kanzure> jrayhawk: keith henson, eh?
00:35 < kanzure> i regularly get emails from him [but i wish i didn't]
00:35 < kanzure> also: i just got back from staying up until 2am debugging a fucking jquery core issue in javascript in fucking ie8
00:36 < jrayhawk> you can search google for it
00:36 < kanzure> on the bright side, i got paid
00:36 < kanzure> but still.. ie should just die in a fire
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00:54 < dbolser> The speakers ... cover a large spectrum of life sciences. For 2011, we are proud to have ... Prof Anthony Hollander, a leading tissue engineer and stem cell scientist from Bristol whose group successfully engineered a trachea from the patient's own stem cells.
00:54 < dbolser> http://picls.lifesci.dundee.ac.uk/symposium2011/index.html
00:56 < kanzure> "neighboring paves on an edge" what the fuck?
00:59 < dbolser> a page by google, showing very poor usability design: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search?category=ext&q=url+shortner
00:59 < dbolser> I want the most popular one
01:00 < dbolser> they want me to engage my working memory
01:00 < dbolser> better https://chrome.google.com/extensions/search?itemlang=&hl=en&q=url+shortner
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01:28 < kanzure> ros/src/BOP/BOP_SolidSolid.cxx
01:28 < kanzure> there we go.. some progress
01:28 < kanzure> also BOPTest/BOPTest_BOPCommands.cxx is amusing
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06:55 < JayDugger> Hmm...
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09:24 < Lukas__> Has anyone ever considered starting some sort of  transhumanism competition?
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09:34 < uniqanomaly> transhuman X Prize would be nice
09:35 < uniqanomaly> first human upload X prize ;)
09:38 < Lukas__> I think some hybrid between iGEM and X Prize
09:38 < Lukas__> I was thinking*
09:38 < Lukas__> of*
09:39 < Lukas__> maybe the X Prize model could be used for far reaching, expensive projects
09:39 < Lukas__> and the iGEM model could be used for projects that aren't too expensive or dangerous
09:40 < kanzure> sure they've thought of it, but nobody has done it
09:40 < kanzure> xprize isn't a good model to copy because they relied on insurance fraud
09:40 < kanzure> if you can manage to do it more power to you but scamming them is pretty tough
09:41 < uniqanomaly> heh, I had no idea about fraud
09:42 < Lukas__> Insurance fraud? wtf?
09:42 < kanzure> yeah, they were insured against someone winning
09:42 < kanzure> the insurance policy was worth the prize amount, i.e. $10M
09:43 < uniqanomaly> lol
09:43 < Lukas__> well, the iGEM model works well enough
09:43 < Lukas__> that is terrible
09:44 < Lukas__> Kanzure, you have a considerable amount of influence in the DIY community, do you think this is possible?
09:45 < kanzure> do i think what is possible?
09:45 < Lukas__> some sort of H+ competiton
09:45 < kanzure> nope, humanity+ would fuck it up
09:46 < Lukas__> then another organization can handle it
09:46 < Lukas__> hell, start another one
09:47 < kanzure> what are you talking about
09:47 < kanzure> first off, why do you think i have influence
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09:47 < kanzure> second, what do you actually want to do
09:48 < kanzure> if you want to do expensive projects, get money
09:51 < Lukas__> 1)  From what I have observed, you are (one of ) the main coordinators of many DIY communities  2)  If you look at the difference between DIYbio groups and iGEM, you see that a lot more information and finished projects comes out of the latter; thus I have come to the conclusion that competition and money helps get projects off of the ground.
09:52 < kanzure> these students are also paid $0 and expect career gains and other things from this, there's a huge biotech industry
09:52 < Lukas__> If you can organize a competition where people mod themselves to win some sort of prize, then I think more projects will actually coming into fruition
09:53 < kanzure> it's worth testing, but if you have lots of money to give away is this the most optimal use of it?
09:54 < kanzure> why not just pay for the specific projects that need to be completed
09:56 < Lukas__> There needs to be some incentive to finish the project.  I can fund a specific project, or put the money on the table and say "first person to do X" gets the money - at least in the latter case there is much more "creative resource" mined from a larger pool, so to speak
09:56 < kanzure> haha what?
09:57 < kanzure> that sounds like handwaving
09:57 < kanzure> i think it's better to be direct
09:57 < kanzure> in particular the "creative resources" part
09:57 < kanzure> you just need the project finished..
09:57 < kanzure> (whatever the project is)
09:58 < kanzure> btw have you done any lab work for igem yet?
10:00 < kanzure> also; the way to do that competition is to find two or three different projects that are already completed, and invite them into the competition, while simultaneously raising the money; then you make up some fake amount of time to pass before judging/awarding the entries. this way you already solve the "where is the money" and the "who is going to enter" problems.
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10:01 < Lukas__> Lab work doesn't start for iGEM until next year, my school is a state Uni, so getting funding is a pain
10:02 < kanzure> uh the professor didn't give you a lab job?
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10:03 < Lukas__> we have a lab to work in (three, actually), but there is no money
10:04 < kanzure> uh
10:04 < kanzure> have you volunteered ??
10:06 < Lukas__> volunteered for lab work?  Yes.  Will I be doing lab work?  Yes.  But I am busy trying to lobby the campus for money so that we can get the ball rolling, unfortunately that includes a whole pile of b.s that has to get done before we are funded
10:06 < kanzure> huh? no i mean not related to igem
10:07 < Lukas__> oh
10:07 < Lukas__>  I am applying for a position in an Adeno-Virus lab
10:08 < kanzure> is it an immunology lab?
10:08 < Lukas__> gene therapy
10:08 < kanzure> ah better
10:08 < Lukas__> yup  :D
10:17 < kanzure> fenn: http://opencascade.sourcearchive.com/lines/6.3.0.dfsg.1-1/BOP__SolidSolid_8cxx-source.html
11:27 < Lukas__> wtf is this?  http://hplusmagazine.com/2011/04/18/how-to-start-a-student-transhumanist-group/
11:32 < kanzure> a load of crap
11:33 < kanzure> they asked me to help them write their 'guide' but they were just emailing .doc files aruond, so i gave up and refused
11:33 < kanzure> *around
11:35 < kanzure> it's here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/52617532/H-SN-Guide
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11:39 < Lukas__> this is one of the most pointless things I've seen
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11:53 < eridu> Lukas__: how so?
11:54 < eridu> it's certainly depressingly hierarchical
11:54 < eridu> it's also written horribly
11:54 < eridu> but it's just a basic "how to start a group" article
11:55 < eridu> there are a lot of those, but I don't see how having another one harms anything
11:55 < Lukas__> you are correct, it doesn't harm anything
11:56 < Lukas__> but it is quite long - someone could have read another "how to start a school club" guide
11:56 < Lukas__> and would have gotten the same information
11:57 < eridu> you can say the same about just about everything
11:57 < eridu> except research publications, I guess
11:57 < Lukas__> *shrug* perhaps I am wrong
11:59 < eridu> you aren't wrong, it's just not a very powerful criticism
11:59 < eridu> it's not pointless, it's just bad ;-)
12:03 < Lukas__> :D
12:14 < kanzure> aha! i knew it :)
12:14 < kanzure> "The BRepAlgoAPI package provides a full range of services to perform Boolean Operations on arguments (shapes that are defined in the BRep data structures). The implemented new algorithm is intended to replace the Old Boolean Operations algorithm in the BRepAlgo package."
12:14 < kanzure> so there is old code on top of old code
12:19 < kanzure> "For arguments with different shape types some of Boolean Operations can not be done using the default implementation, because of a non-manifold type of the result. Example: the FUSE operation for SHELL and SOLID can not be done,"
12:19 < kanzure> er.. but if you can degenerate a solid into a set of shells then why can't you fuse a shell and a solid
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15:44 < ybit> http://shar.es/H25Ih :: some contest to help support kelsey moodey/SENS stuff
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15:45 < ybit> eric schulke wanted me to share, that's my sharing
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16:48 < kanzure> a very simple b-rep boolean operation library.. with comments (gasp!)
16:48 < kanzure> http://breplibrary.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/breplibrary/breplibrary/cpp-simple/CSG/main.cpp?revision=1.2&view=markup
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16:53 < QuantumG> which is neat and all but breps (of the vertex/face list variety) are approximations of real surfaces.. so isn't doing csg on them just going to degrade the approximation to the point of being useless?
16:54 < kanzure> no you can do the boolean operations with a certain tolerance
16:54 < kanzure> so if you specify your CAD model to a 0.0001m tolerance then presumably the software should maintain that
16:54 < kanzure> of course, this breplibrary doesn't do that)
16:54 < kanzure> (
16:55 < QuantumG> well, if your input breps are *not* approximations of curved surfaces then yeah, there should be no problem with degradation
16:55 < kanzure> nobody should use breps scanned surfaces. those are messy anyway and need interval tolerances or something
16:56 < kanzure> *nobody should use breps for scanned surfaces
16:56 < kanzure> most of the time people just use meshes for that too
16:57 < QuantumG> suppose you have a sphere and a cylinder.. you subtract the sphere from the middle of the cylinder.. the result will be much worse if you use breps as input and just calculate a brep subtraction than if you use geometric definitions as input and then approximate a brep from the geometry subtraction.  understand what I'm saying?
16:57 < kanzure> no you can define breps with pi's
16:58 < kanzure> so in the case of cutting out a sphere from the cylinder, you just take the curved surface of the sphere and propagate that up
16:59 < kanzure> although.. now that i think of it, nobody uses infinite precision in CAD :p they usually set the precision before they begin modeling
17:00 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
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18:06 < fenn> romain behar sounds familiar
18:07 < fenn> hm maybe from k-3d
18:12 < kanzure> it doesn't look that bad
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18:17 < kanzure> robust set operations on polyhedral solids http://www.cs.purdue.edu/research/technical_reports/1987/TR%2087-723.pdf
18:18 < kanzure> a simple approach to performing set operations on polyhedra http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/1903/4934/1/TR_89-98.pdf
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19:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/organic%20batteries%20w-annotations.pdf <-- stuff i get in my inbox
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19:25 < Technicus> Anybody here know about household plumbing
19:25 < Technicus> ?
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21:04 < ybit> i must be missing something, why hasn't anyone made their own CCD?
21:14 < ybit> aah, i see
21:14 < ybit> fuck
21:15 < QuantumG> ?
21:19 < ybit> will someone invent a cheaper photolithography method?
21:19 < kanzure> did you price out photolithography?
21:19 < ybit> i'd have to grep, but i'm feeling lazy, the estimated cost of this was ~4-5k
21:19 < kanzure> su8?
21:20 < kanzure> it's not that much but even if it was $5k that's not a lot and you should swollow that cost
21:20 < ybit> no, no i didn't
21:20 < ybit> i would love to swallow that costs when that little green man leads to me to the other end of the rainbow
21:21 < kanzure> no money?
21:21 < ybit> that sentence made me cringe, yes
21:23 < ybit> i'm looking for sub $100 projects
21:24 < ybit> guess we could just write drivers or something
21:25 < ybit> btw, the local hackerspace now has a book scanner
21:25 < ybit> it's not automatic, but it's still nice to have
21:26 < kanzure> write code for me
21:26 < ybit> oh, what do you need?
21:26 < ybit> are you referring to skdb?
21:27 < ybit> translating some old code from occ?
21:27 < ybit> that might be interesting
21:27 < ybit> the theme is c++, a couple of cool kids want to learn c++
21:29 < QuantumG> have ya seen Jon Goff's new business blog?  http://blog.altius-space.com/  He's blogging about building this http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/10/sbir/phase1/SBIR-10-1-S5.04-9001.html?solicitationId=SBIR_10_P1
21:33 < ybit> kanzure: are you now starting to use ssl with diyhpl.us?
21:57 < kanzure> jrayhawk is :p
21:57 < kanzure> i guess i'll go along with it
21:57 < kanzure> https has been enabled for a while
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23:03 < ybit> looking for a problem to solve with some guys interested in c++, suggestions welcome
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23:05 < kanzure> ybit: ok, rewriting the boolean operations in opencascade
23:06 < kanzure> or improving the nurbs support of brlcad
23:06 < kanzure> (which is c, actually, but close enough..)
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23:12 < ybit> thank you
23:15 < kanzure> by rewriting i mean refactoring and making it suck less
23:15 < kanzure> also i mean removing it from opencascade
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23:18 < ybit> by rewriting, i gathered you meant making a better cad kernel... which i take it to mean contributing to the wildcat-cad project
23:19 < kanzure> no
23:19 < ybit> aww, why is that
23:20 < kanzure> ybit: that paper-tape-microfluidics paper is everywhere.. google scholar probably has a link to a good pdf
23:20 < ybit> yeah, i found it, sent you a link
23:21 < kanzure> don't focus on making an entire cad kernel, that's unnecessary and doesn't really mean anything
23:21 < kanzure> most "cad kernels" are just some core functionality (boolean operations on solid geometries) wrapped up with lots of other stuff
23:21 < kanzure> the other stuff is useful but it's not difficult
23:21 < kanzure> boolean operations aren't difficult either, but for some reason nobody has a clean re-usable library
23:22 < kanzure> breplibrary is a good start and is worth playing around with..
23:22 < kanzure> i think opennurbs has ON_Intersect(plane, plane) somewhere in opennurbs_intersect.cpp
23:25 < kanzure> but iirc it doesn't do much except return circles or something retarded
23:26 < kanzure> and then opencascade has multiple libraries inside of itself..
23:26 < kanzure> BRepAlgo is the older one and BRepAlgoAPI is the newer one,
23:26 < kanzure> but both of those modules reference *other* modules where the bulk of the work is actually done
23:27 < kanzure> like BRepAlgoAPI actually uses BOP_SolidSolid::DoNewFaces for a solid-solid merge
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23:33 < kanzure> so on the one hand i have incredibly undocumented code (opencascade)
23:33 < kanzure> it works and has lots of neat features like being able to maintain tolerances and do other funky shit
23:33 < kanzure> plus presumably their customers have actually used it and it does something that people want
23:34 < kanzure> on the other hand, it would be more efficient to just use something from the literature from a formal definition
23:34 < kanzure> .. except that i figure that nobody bothered to do a formalized version of this "working" version
23:35 < kanzure> so i cna't really compare/contrast formal academic set operation papers against opencascade's system
23:35 < kanzure> (not without already understanding occ's system, which i don't- entirely..)
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23:48 < ybit> this sounds like fun
23:50 < ybit> it seems to be most directly applicable to the original goal of using c++ on some project
23:50 < QuantumG> meh
23:50 < ybit> oh come on, what gives QuantumG
23:51 < QuantumG> heh nothing.. wrong window
23:51 < ybit> heh, okay
--- Log closed Thu Apr 21 00:00:10 2011