--- Log opened Sat Jul 16 00:00:43 2011
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07:15 < kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2010886763/the-amazing-cancer-resistant-mouse
07:15 < kanzure> and it isn't john schloendorn
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08:01 < kanzure> hi wrldpc
08:01 < kanzure> are you in japan
08:01 < wrldpc> hey bryan
08:01 < wrldpc> yep
08:01 < wrldpc> iwakuni-shi
08:02 < kanzure> i just got back from nyc
08:02 < wrldpc> nice, what were you doing in the big apple?
08:02 < kanzure> fbi/diybio stuff
08:03 < wrldpc> sweet!
08:04 < wrldpc> what was that like?
08:04 < kanzure> bizarre, mostly
08:04 < wrldpc> interesting.
08:04 < kanzure> (brb 30min)
08:04 < wrldpc> were the feds savvy biologists?
08:04 < wrldpc> kk
08:05 < kanzure> one or two of them.. but no
08:07 < wrldpc> that's disappointing.  i hope they learned something.
08:07 < wrldpc> how's skdb?
08:07 < kanzure> various cad tools popping up
08:07 < wrldpc> cool.
08:08 < kanzure> ok now i'm leaving
08:08 < wrldpc> rgr
08:25 < kanzure> back..
08:48 < kanzure> "Meanwhile, I think that Google are the actual villains. Do they spend billions dismantling the patent system? No. Do they spend billions protecting their partners from lawsuits? No."
08:49 < kanzure> "What they do is aid and abet other companies to violate patents, and then they shrug their shoulders and sell a few more text ads for Viagra or ambulance chasing lawyers."
08:49 < kanzure> hah
09:00 < kanzure> huh i thought it was someone just pretending to be george church posting to diybio as geochurch@gmail.com .. but it seems to be the real guy
09:00 < kanzure> so cory asked if he could be kay aull. i asked if i could be craig venter. romie asked if he could be bryan bishop :(
09:02 < kanzure> er, not kay aull. kary mullis.
09:08 < kanzure> thesnark_: http://scraperwiki.com/ is interesting. seems to be a scraper aggregator?
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09:53 < thesnark_> kanzure oh thanks! Didn't know about that
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10:10 < kanzure> i wrote a long email to diybio (in response to george church) that nobody is going to read:
10:10 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/6f911a07ff9febcc
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10:46 < kanzure> The crystal structure of a voltage-gated sodium channel
10:46 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature10238.html
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12:01 < kanzure> just cold-called the upverter guy (michael woodworth)
12:01 < kanzure> he claims they are working on git integration
12:15 < kanzure> they don't seem to know about gEDA
12:16 < kanzure> they have seed funding and something like a year to prove that they can get users
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19:39 < fenn> upverter isn't worth bothering about imho
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20:20 < kanzure> fenn: well they want to run a company
20:20 < kanzure> so i say, give them things to do
20:20 < kanzure> sdr: re not dying, i do have some papers if you wanted to be serious about that sort of thing
20:27 < kanzure> http://www.thingiverse.com/thingiview:68552 looks like thingiview.js
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20:55 < kanzure> "[Jefferson] rejected a natural rights theory in intellectual property rights and clearly recognized the social and economic rationale of the patent system. The patent monopoly was not designed to secure to the inventor his natural right in his discoveries. Rather, it was a reward, an inducement, to bring forth new knowledge."
20:55 < kanzure> "The grant of an exclusive right to an invention was the creation of society -- at odds with the inherent free nature of disclosed ideas -- and was not to be freely given. Only inventions and discoveries which furthered human knowledge, and were new and useful, justified the special inducement of a limited private monopoly"
20:57 < kanzure> "other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices."
20:57 < QuantumG> the idea that you would prefer to give someone a limited private monopoly (or whatever) over having them keep it a secret and possibly having that secret lost to the ages with the person is the original noble intent of patent law.
20:58 < kanzure> "During the period of Watt's patents the United Kingdom added about 750 horsepower of steam engines per year. In the thirty years following Watt's patents, additional horsepower was added at a rate of more than 4,000 per year."
20:58 < kanzure> a "monopoly" is a very extreme thing
20:58 < QuantumG> it's for precisely that reason that the patents of the steam revolution are such terrible examples.
20:59 < QuantumG> suppose there had been no patents granted to Watt.  Would he have refused to sell boilers?
21:00 < QuantumG> of course not.  Perhaps he would have refused to write up detailed descriptions of how his inventions worked, but anyone who bought a boiler could have simply studied them to determine that anyway.
21:01 < QuantumG> One can imagine Watt offering to sell the boilers under the proviso that you don't try to reverse engineer them, but I think even in his day that would have been a dubious requirement to place on a sale.
21:01 < QuantumG> (the software industry is about the only place where such absurdity abounds)
21:02 < kanzure> "The great moral question of the twenty-first century is: If all knowledge, all culture, all art, all useful information, can be costlessly given to everyone at the same price that it is given to
21:02 < kanzure> anyone — if everyone can have everything, everywhere, all the time, why is it ever moral to exclude anyone from anything"
21:03 < kanzure> "I see no system of moral philosophy generated by the economy of the past that could evolve a principle to explain the moral legitimacy of denial in the presence of infinite profusion."
21:03 < QuantumG> I don't see what that has to do with patents
21:04 < kanzure> "why is it ever moral to exclude anyone from anything" speaks about the utility of information in patents
21:04 < QuantumG> consider the german dye patents.. considered by many to be the beginning of modern patented product industry.
21:05 < QuantumG> they weren't patenting dyes.. they were patenting the special techniques used to make those dyes.  And mostly their product wasn't dyes.. it was dyed cloth.
21:05 < QuantumG> had they been refused patents they would have, no doubt, kept selling colored cloth.
21:06 < QuantumG> but their special techniques for making that colored cloth would never have been revealed.
21:06 < QuantumG> even today, how to make colored cloth would probably be a trade secret.
21:07 < QuantumG> clearly, the limited monopoly they enjoyed, all those years ago, is worth the widespread knowledge of how to make those particular dyes.. not to mention the vast chemical engineering discipline it spawned.
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21:37 < kanzure> george church interview http://mendelspod.com/podcast
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 17 00:00:45 2011