--- Log opened Thu Sep 29 00:00:32 2011 00:50 < AlonzoTG> dripping from a dead dog's eye. 00:54 < QuantumG> finally 00:55 < kanzure> hello? 01:50 -!- strangewarp [~Christian@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: No rescuer hath the rescuer, no lord hath the champion, no mother and no father, only nothingness.] 01:57 < kanzure> boycotting free reviewing for corporate journals http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=417576&c=1 01:58 -!- strangewarp [~christian@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:05 < kanzure> hi strangewarp 04:33 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:04 -!- jennicide [jen@173-27-44-143.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:02 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~PatrickMc@c-98-217-184-95.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:05 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~PatrickMc@c-98-217-184-95.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: uniqanomaly 06:10 -!- Netsplit over, joins: uniqanomaly 07:14 -!- Fiohnel [~r3idslash@111.94.244.68] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:03 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06 -!- marainein [~marainein@114-198-76-209.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:44 -!- Fiohnel [~r3idslash@111.94.244.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:45 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:10 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-87-105-22-68.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Quit: uniqanomaly] 09:25 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:00 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:47 -!- Fiohnel [~r3idslash@111.94.244.68] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:45 -!- panax [panax@131.247.116.104] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-87-105-22-68.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:03 -!- bkero [~bkero2@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:06 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:07 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:10 -!- bkero [~bkero2@li280-127.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:12 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:13 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:16 -!- bkero [~bkero2@li280-127.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:16 -!- bkero [~bkero2@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:52 -!- bkero [~bkero2@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:55 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:56 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:56 -!- bkero [~bkero2@li280-127.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:58 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:06 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:07 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@li159-85.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:08 -!- bkero [~bkero2@li280-127.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:09 -!- bkero [~bkero2@li280-127.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:42 -!- panax [panax@131.247.116.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:47 -!- bkero [~bkero2@li280-127.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:47 -!- bkero [~bkero2@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:55 -!- marainein [~marainein@114-198-76-209.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:09 -!- marainein [~marainein@114-198-76-209.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:12 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-87-105-22-68.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Quit: uniqanomaly] 15:13 -!- ybit [~ybit@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:37 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41 < kanzure> canaan isn't that bad 16:15 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: strangewarp 16:18 -!- Netsplit over, joins: strangewarp 16:24 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:23 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:09 < joshcryer> Is there a hplusroadmap map anywhere? 19:11 < QuantumG> they're still working on the huplusroadmap roadmap map 19:12 < joshcryer> Closest thing I got that's useful is "The Millennial Project" (which I mentioned here before). Only instead of building Aquaris you build a lunar manufacturing base first, then you built Aquarius. 19:16 < kanzure> joshcryer: that is mostly defunct due to luf (life universe foundation) and tmp2 19:17 < QuantumG> The Millennial Project has become a socialist utopian fantasy.. driving away its founder. 19:18 < joshcryer> kanzure, imo, they retain the same seed settlement "seasteading" idea. ie, requiring, again imho, a lot of capital investment. 19:21 < QuantumG> the fundamental "seed" was the development of OTC electrical power systems. 19:21 < QuantumG> not only was that a shaky foundation, but a lot of the stuff that was built on top of it, like seament, was junk too 19:23 < joshcryer> OTEC can work but I agree it's iffy, that's why I think a focus should be a lunar seed that can be used to remotely build a manufacturing base on the moon. Then you go to space based solar, to power your little city. 19:26 < QuantumG> your complaint was about the massive capital required 19:26 < QuantumG> a lunar seed is even more capital 19:32 < joshcryer> Most significant cost would be getting it there. Unless you could shrink it down absurdly. 19:34 < QuantumG> yup.. and the cheapest launch makes an OTEC look cheap 19:37 < joshcryer> Just have to see if costs come down. 19:37 < joshcryer> Meanwhile work on seed machines, of which the development is partially there in the various maker projects. 19:38 < QuantumG> unless you can get your seed machine down to less than the mass of a few humans, you might as well send the humans as well 19:39 < joshcryer> Pfft. 19:40 < joshcryer> And the life support to keep those humans alive? 19:40 < QuantumG> you can make self-replicating robots but you can't make a little life support? 19:41 < joshcryer> Well they would be lousy replicators if they couldn't, but it seems like a waste of effort to worry about that in the initial seed flight. 19:43 < QuantumG> doesn't sound like there's much thought going on here 19:44 < QuantumG> extracting water (and hopefully carbon) from permafrost sounds a heck of a lot easier than self-replicating machines 19:44 < joshcryer> I don't like the term self-replicating because only one celled organisms are marginally self-replicating. 19:45 < joshcryer> I like the idea of hive replication, and I do not think building such machines is beyond current human capacity. 19:45 < QuantumG> I don't think it is either 19:46 < QuantumG> but that's irrelevant to whether or not it is easier - or more desirable - to just send freakin' humans to the Moon already with the means to live there permanently. 19:47 < joshcryer> Certainly technically speaking, if you don't want to build hive replicators, you are going to find it easier to put humans into little pods and have them drive little bulldozers around and whatnot. 19:47 < joshcryer> Since they're natures intelligent replicators anyhow. 19:48 < QuantumG> in any case, if you want to build hive replicators, the Mojave desert sounds like a much more amusing place to do it. 19:49 < joshcryer> Amusing, sure, until the Bureau of Land Management decides to confiscate and or destroy them. 19:50 -!- Stieru_Ridir is now known as Steel_ 19:50 < QuantumG> there's that guy who puts them walking robots on the beach 19:50 < kanzure> strandbeestman 19:50 < joshcryer> I got a little piece of land waiting for me to move to it surrounded by BLM land. 19:51 < foucist> imo, i think the cheapest way to colonize space is probably to start with an NEA and ride it out to the asteroid belt 19:51 < joshcryer> BLM doesn't mind you driving lots of offroad vehicles on their land. 19:51 < foucist> set up the NEA so when it gets back to earth it's ready for even more people 19:51 < joshcryer> But they really really really don't like it when you remove rocks or any other stuff from said land. 19:52 < joshcryer> (without mineral leases and environmental studies being done and so on) 19:52 < joshcryer> Maybe AU would be more suitiable since it's relatively desolate and no one would know the wiser. 19:53 < QuantumG> you could follow the JSC recipe and make lunar regolith simulator 19:53 < QuantumG> build a really big sandbox of it 19:53 < joshcryer> That's what I wanted to do, first thing I'm going to do is melt some. Just for giggles. :) 19:53 < QuantumG> then make your hive in that 19:53 < QuantumG> of course, you don't have vacuum available, but you could simulate that too I guess 19:54 < joshcryer> I was thinking mild vaccum filled with argon. 19:55 < QuantumG> I've been buying argon lately 19:55 < QuantumG> it's annoying expensive 19:55 < joshcryer> really? 19:56 < QuantumG> $109 for 1.6 m^3 19:58 < joshcryer> I was thinking argon because I wanted to make my own liquid nitrogen and argon would be a byproduct. 19:58 < QuantumG> probably much cheaper if you buy it in bulk anyway 19:58 < joshcryer> Yes, but I won't learn crap buying stuff in bulk. :( 19:59 < joshcryer> I could theoretically buy a lifetime supply of MREs, but I plan to grow my own food and recycle my own waste. 19:59 < joshcryer> And document the whole thing. 19:59 < joshcryer> (except the shits maybe) 20:00 < QuantumG> might wanna buy some MREs 20:00 < joshcryer> Surely some here would love an open hardware design for a liquid nitrogen generator. 20:00 < joshcryer> I saw a guy on YouTube who apparently built one for a maker festival, but I couldn't find anything else about it. 20:02 < joshcryer> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/06/diy-liquid-nitrogen-generator.html 20:04 < QuantumG> so ya got any plans for vertical farming on this property/ 20:04 < QuantumG> ? 20:04 < QuantumG> cause ya know all the kids love vertical farming 20:09 < joshcryer> No. 20:09 < joshcryer> Flat farming. :P 20:10 < QuantumG> dirt farming 20:10 < QuantumG> like a russian peasant 20:10 < joshcryer> Nah, hydroponics but probably buried. 20:10 < joshcryer> It gets 115 degrees F in the summer. 20:11 < joshcryer> We were doing the numbers on a Mars settlement though. 20:11 < joshcryer> You could live out the rest of your life on Mars just by taking dang MREs. 20:12 < joshcryer> So for one person sure everyone just flies to Mars and "settles" with MRE "retirement plans." 20:12 < joshcryer> But you aren't having kids or expanding out, so imo that's not settling, that's not "living off the land" that's not "pioneering." 20:13 < QuantumG> it's insurance 20:13 < QuantumG> you take a few years MREs with you so you can focus at most that much time on getting water/oxygen production going 20:13 < joshcryer> So trade off, take 10 years supply of MREs and the rest in hydroponic equipment. 20:14 < QuantumG> cause you *can't* take a few years worth of water/oxygen with you 20:14 < joshcryer> Agreed, there. 20:15 < QuantumG> so far as I'm aware, you either need resupply from Earth from the very beginning or you just have to gamble that you can get water/oxygen production going straight away 20:15 < QuantumG> sending robots to get that going first is smart for that reason. 20:17 < QuantumG> but if you have water/oxygen production going using remote manipulators, there's no point delaying sending humans until you get food production going because MREs really do let you take years to achieve that. 20:18 < joshcryer> Sure. 20:19 < QuantumG> so.. is there water desalination systems that 1) last years and 2) are available off-the-shelf right now? 20:19 < QuantumG> I'm thinking those membrane hand pumps 20:20 < joshcryer> Where are we going? 20:20 < joshcryer> I don't think membrane hand pumps can deal with lunar regolith. 20:20 < joshcryer> Could be wrong. 20:20 < QuantumG> was thinking seasteading 20:20 < joshcryer> (could be exaggerated notion about it's nastiness) 20:22 < QuantumG> http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Fresh_water#Reverse_Osmosis 20:30 < joshcryer> I wonder about the replacement cost of the membrane. 20:30 < QuantumG> yeah 20:31 < joshcryer> I got distracted with the thermal vacuum desalination method stuff, heh. 20:31 < joshcryer> Very neat approach (I believe we discussed it before on the old newmars.com, I'd forgotten about it). 20:36 -!- Fiohnel [~r3idslash@111.94.244.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:38 < joshcryer> I think I'll go to sleep while I still can, I was up all night last night, must've hit a kanzure mode, 'cause I couldn't sleep. Later all. :P 20:38 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [] 20:41 -!- Fiohnel [~r3idslash@111.94.244.68] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:58 -!- marainein [~marainein@114-198-76-209.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:08 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: jennicide, elmom, nuba, kanzure, bkero, He||eshin, Utopiah 21:11 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~PatrickMc@c-98-217-184-95.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:11 -!- Netsplit over, joins: bkero, jennicide, He||eshin, Utopiah, elmom, kanzure, nuba 21:13 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~PatrickMc@c-98-217-184-95.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:24 -!- Fiohnel [~r3idslash@111.94.244.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39 -!- marainein [~marainein@114-198-76-209.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:47 -!- strangewarp [~christian@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:53 -!- strangewarp [~christian@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:53 -!- mayko [~mayko@71-22-217-151.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:11 -!- Steel_ [~Steel@cpe-67-246-36-165.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:19 -!- Stee| [~Steel@cpe-67-246-36-165.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Fri Sep 30 00:00:33 2011