--- Log opened Thu Nov 03 00:00:25 2011
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14:11 < eudoxia> kanzure, can you link me to those transcripts you posted the other day?
14:12 < eudoxia> i think it was during singularity summit
14:12 < eudoxia> yeah i'm pretty sure
14:12 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/
14:12 < kanzure> git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git
14:13 < eudoxia> thank you
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16:04 < antipragmatist> hi guys
16:05 < antipragmatist> hi kanzure
16:05 < kanzure> hi
16:05 < antipragmatist> still reading the docks and thinkng about it
16:05 < antipragmatist> have you created the next big thing yet?
16:07 < antipragmatist> a lab like yours will cost  meabout $10K?
16:08 < antipragmatist> any nanotecgh guys here
16:09 < antipragmatist> any nanotech guys here?  If so what are your thoughts on diamondoid process?
16:11 < kanzure> you have to sit and wait, not everyone is online simultaneously
16:12 < Stee|> I'm (sort of) nanotech, but not diamondoid stuff
16:12 < Stee|> not quite that scale :)
16:12 < Stee|> the setup in my lab ran about 70k I think
16:14 < antipragmatist> oh wow... I that is almost all the liquid cash i have
16:14 < Stee|> uh
16:14 < Stee|> notably
16:14 < Stee|> this was paid for by a giant goddamn university
16:14 < Stee|> and it's a tiny part of the nano/micro process
16:14 < Stee|> this isn't diamondoid or anything useful like that
16:15 < Stee|> on the other hand, our stages have 2nm noise detection
16:15 < antipragmatist> hehehehe, wow, im trying to do it self... ogonna build everything myself
16:16 < antipragmatist> nice.... can you use a vibration detector and add that noise into scanning current to compensate?
16:17 < antipragmatist> vibration------>> signal
16:18 < Stee|> eh
16:18 < antipragmatist> then add that to your scanner signal
16:18 < antipragmatist> you would not need any compensators?
16:18 < Stee|> Ehhhh
16:18 < Stee|> a) that's not really how control compensation works
16:18 < antipragmatist> the noise and vibration wouod be vactored in
16:18 < Stee|> b) we don't actually need to have movement at that scale
16:18 < Stee|> within 50nm is more than enough usually
16:19 < antipragmatist> i see?
16:19 < antipragmatist> i see.
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16:21 < antipragmatist> for coarse position i think about preset.
16:21 < antipragmatist> for fine i use micromwter screws
16:21 < Stee|> heh
16:22 < Stee|> I actually have access to IP on actuators not available to market yet, but my advisor would kill me if I shared them :)
16:22 < Stee|> probably will see them in a year or so on the market
16:22 < antipragmatist> please?
16:22 < Stee|> you can't build them since I doubt you have the fab, and you can't buy them, and I respect my advisor's wishes :P
16:22 < antipragmatist> i was thinking about linear actuators for final device
16:22 < Stee|> what are you trying to build?
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16:23 < antipragmatist> first simple stm then a diamondoid
16:23 < Stee|> what's your background?
16:23 < Stee|> or academic knowledge in general
16:24 < antipragmatist> softwareengineer, electronics hobbiests
16:24 < antipragmatist> hobbyist
16:25 < antipragmatist> a linearactua tor would beidealic for speed
16:29 < Stee|> eh
16:29 < Stee|> do you have a laid out plan on how to get to actual largescale diamondoid mechanosynthesis?
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16:32 < kanzure> Stee|: there's not much..
16:32 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/freitas_process/notes.txt
16:32 < Stee|> yeah, I figured not
16:33 < Stee|> but really, dude's overly gung ho
16:33 < kanzure> who cares.. redirect him to something where he'd be useful
16:33 < kanzure> like open source software for microfluidics maybe :3
16:33 < Stee|> when I finish my thesis I won't share my paper for free, but I'll give you guys my mathematical model, annotated
16:33 < Stee|> with full notes on where improvement might be denoted
16:35 < Stee|> maybe not the best for sub 100nm scale, but it's a fantastic fab mechanism for scales between 100nm and 50um
16:38 < Stee|> kanzure, where's uv gun on your ultimate fab lab list?
16:45 < kanzure> :) that was written by someone else for make magazine i think
16:47 < Stee|> ah
16:47 < Stee|> I think I figured out a way to retrofit a reprap for stereolithographic layerless printing
16:48 < Stee|> I'll investigate when I have a job (and money)
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16:51 < Stee|> also, kanz, fluidics software is nasty
16:51 < kanzure> yep
16:51 < kanzure> i just want something that will spit out a design in svg
16:51 < Stee|> for what?
16:51 < antipragmatist> well, eventally i will create a multi positning platform for diamondoid assembky
16:51 < Stee|> a microfluidic channel?
16:51 < kanzure> Stee|: for large-scale fluidic designs yes
16:51 < Stee|> eg?
16:51 < kanzure> mixers, interfaces, valves, whatever
16:52 < Stee|> hm
16:52 < kanzure> there was some code in skdb.git for this a while back
16:53 < kanzure> but importing pythonocc for svg/microfluidics is retarded
16:53 < kanzure> also, building a cheapo syringe pump should be doable
16:53 < antipragmatist> but first, i will create a simo.e dvi e and go  ore comp.ex fro  there
17:17 < antipragmatist> hehehe,this ones deaign he does his coarse stm positioning by hand...is that insaneor what
17:18 < antipragmatist> thatsounfs like a crackpot design
17:18 < antipragmatist> *sounds
17:19 < antipragmatist> nm positioning  eye!
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17:19 < antipragmatist> is that not a funny!!!
17:19 < eudoxia> hey antipragmatist, i've been reading your posts on the logs
17:19 < eudoxia> are you trying to build a scanning tunelling microscope?
17:20 < antipragmatist> yes, i am researching now though trying to learn from other designd
17:20 < eudoxia> i'm not sure an STM would work on diamond
17:20 < eudoxia> Steel i need your professional opinion here
17:21 < antipragmatist> true, diamond uses afm or similar
17:21 < antipragmatist> but before i build afm i build stm
17:22 < eudoxia> STM works on silicon whose crystalline structure is analogous to diamond
17:22 < antipragmatist> yet meant afm?
17:22 < eudoxia> Silicon is easier to prepare and cheaper than diamond
17:22 < eudoxia> No, STM
17:22 < antipragmatist> * you
17:22 < antipragmatist> ok.
17:22 < eudoxia> silicon is conducting enough for STM to work
17:23 < antipragmatist> i can afm anything though that is next step
17:23 < eudoxia> yes
17:23 < antipragmatist> i chose stm for first project becuase it seems easier
17:24 < eudoxia> although with AFM you can't really use electric effects that may be useful
17:24 < antipragmatist> i dont want to get frustratedwith afm
17:25 < eudoxia> an interesting thing to do would be attempt to replicate Zyvex's patterned atomic layer epitaxy, using the STM to remove Hydrogen from a Silicon surface, then using silylane gas to grow crystal on the depassivated area
17:25 < antipragmatist> well, eventualineed to divise a way topick up and/or deposit atoms
17:26 < antipragmatist> yes, that is how diamond works from what i read
17:26 < eudoxia> silylene*
17:26 < antipragmatist> but that technique seems too cumbersome for precision nanobots
17:26 < eudoxia> i wouldn't be so sure
17:27 < eudoxia> i've been thinking it may be a plausible alternative to mechanosynthesis
17:27 < eudoxia> the Minimal Toolset for Positional Diamond Mechanosynthesis requires nine tooltips to self-replicate, and about four of those are required for the mechanosynthesis
17:27 < antipragmatist> mechnosys uses deposition of gas too
17:27 < eudoxia> the solution to the problem of scaling the process up to macroscale products is paralellization -- having a billion tips working in parallel
17:28 < eudoxia> but this doesn't scale up well when you need to paralellize nine different tooltips...
17:28 < eudoxia> mechanosynthesis uses mechanical deposition of the carbon
17:28 < eudoxia> i haven't read anything about gas-based mechanosynthesis
17:28 < antipragmatist> exponentiation must be done some how
17:28 < eudoxia> it's sort of breaks the whole point
17:29 < eudoxia> i think Zyvex's method scales better because all you need is a single scanning tunnelling microscope tip, not nine different ones, and the tip geometry doesn't even have to be known
17:29 < antipragmatist> url?
17:29 < eudoxia> i also don't know how exactly you'd remove a molecular machine part from a diamond surface after making it with mechanosynthesis
17:30 < eudoxia> https://apmc.zyvex.com/
17:30 < eudoxia> http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/zyvex-atmoically-precise-manufacturing.html
17:30 < antipragmatist> chemical process to detach
17:30 < antipragmatist> thankyou.
17:30 < eudoxia> Zyvex's process specifies that a sacrificial layer of Germanium would be etched away
17:31 < eudoxia> apparently water does this at 90ºC, which is pretty fucking awesome
17:31 < eudoxia> I don't know how chemical separation would work with diamondoid
17:31 < antipragmatist> second
17:34 < antipragmatist> http://www.MolecularAssembler.com/Nanofactory/DMS.htm
17:34 < antipragmatist> had to get url forya
17:34 < antipragmatist> brb
17:34 < eudoxia> i've been there a billion times in the past, favorite site etc etc., but it doesn't explain how to detach machine parts.
17:34 < eudoxia> i'm pretty sure
17:35 < eudoxia> you can use mechanosynthesis to pattern surfaces vertically
17:35 < eudoxia> but for detaching, you'd have to manually use the Ge tooltips to build a sacrificial layer of Germanium
17:35 < eudoxia> a very tall one, at that
17:36 < eudoxia> and all the steps you have to go through are the main reason I'm starting to prefer patterned atomic layer epitaxy
17:36 < eudoxia> may Merkle have mercy on my soul
17:38 < antipragmatist> hehehe, that is very funny ... me too though
17:39 < antipragmatist> well, I think we have everything we need to buikd this stuff ... we just need to work the problems
17:40 < antipragmatist> are you a pro and independent amateur like  yself?
17:40 < antipragmatist> *myself
17:40 < eudoxia> HS student with an interest in molecular manufacturing
17:40 < antipragmatist> hehehehe that is so wonderful ...
17:40 < antipragmatist> I wishIwasstarti g off young
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17:41 < antipragmatist> ahyouth  what a blessing ... hehehe
17:41 < antipragmatist> but i am young at heart :-)
17:43 < antipragmatist> i wish you well and great success on this endeaver and who knows perhaps you'll be the one with thenext great break through
17:43 < antipragmatist> endeavor
17:43 < eudoxia> nothing like wasting one's youth staring at molecules in NanoEngineer :)
17:43 < eudoxia> thank you
17:43 < antipragmatist> hehehe true but later in life you'llbe thankfulyou did
17:44 < eudoxia> perhaps
17:44 < eudoxia> kanzure or the others have already shown the NanoEngineer software right?
17:44 < eudoxia> you'll love it, it's for nanosystems simulation and stuff
17:45 < antipragmatist> its nice but of nosignificant value for real life creation of devices
17:45 < antipragmatist> else we would havethem
17:45 < Stee|> if you're doing atomic scale mechanosynthesis it is
17:45 < Stee|> we don't have the means to create them, but we have the means to design them
17:45 < Stee|> eudoxia, I honestly haven't looked much at afm/stm stuff much--been poking around a couple magnitudes higher
17:46 < eudoxia> it would be better if you could simulate the tooltips from within the software
17:46 < antipragmatist> that would be nice
17:46 < eudoxia> if it came bundled with a few molecular dynamics and ab-initio models it would be perfect
17:46 < antipragmatist> the tooltip is going to be difsficult problem towork
17:47 < antipragmatist> firefly does abnito i think
17:47 < Stee|> eudoxia: I may do some annotation on my printing work once I finish, but I'll probably primarily switch over to trying to understand various non-invasive BCI more
17:47 < Stee|> and policy issues
17:47 < antipragmatist> ab-inito
17:47 < Stee|> as those interst me more
17:48 < Stee|> *interest
17:48 < eudoxia> the reasons i want ab-initio for nanoengineer are essentially: 1) too stupid to know how to use actual ab-initio software 2) i want to see if mechanosynthesis can be extended to the rest of the upper-right corner of the periodic table
17:48 < Stee|> maybe some layerless freeform manufacturing
17:49 < antipragmatist> well, im off for a bit ... chat with you guys later
17:49 < antipragmatist> bye ye
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22:02 < kanzure> bleh thsi guy again http://www.reddit.com/user/reasonattlm
22:02 < kanzure> i'm not sure if he's changed his idea or not
22:02 < kanzure> but he claims that he's now doing "lab protocols"
22:02 < kanzure> but they are still untested
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23:23 < Stee|> what protocols?
--- Log closed Fri Nov 04 00:00:26 2011