--- Log opened Sat Dec 17 00:00:32 2011
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13:47 < delinquentme>  HI EVERYONE
13:47 < delinquentme> I JUST KICKED BUTT AND NOW IM CODING!
13:47  * delinquentme lolz
13:52 < jrayhawk> to whom did the butt belong to at the time
14:00 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, these sc2 nubs
14:00 < delinquentme> i was telling the other team I was korean
14:00 < delinquentme> HuK HuK GOSUUUUU ^_^;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; like
14:00 < delinquentme> and my partner in a 2v2 game let
14:01 < delinquentme> so i took over and doubled up the multitasking and destroyed 2 other people
14:05 < sylph_mako> Ugh sports. "Lets spend a lot of time and money getting good at doing something that doesn't matter"
14:07 < jrayhawk> playing is our microcosmic model for living
14:08 < sylph_mako> =)
14:08 < delinquentme> innnteresting
14:08 < delinquentme> i ike sc2 bc the mentak involvement
14:08 < delinquentme> mentall**
14:10 < jrayhawk> those who would undermine play undermine consequence-free problem-space exploration
14:10 < sylph_mako> Play is notably different from focusing extensively on a narrow game.
14:10 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, but then how do we appropriately approach the real world consequential world?
14:12 < sylph_mako> I'm fine with play. With the right crowd Sc2 is play. But when you start reading strategy guides...
14:12 < jrayhawk> those who are able to focus extensively on a narrow game are training themselves to focus extensively on a narrow problem space with real consequences.
14:14 < jrayhawk> unless constantly attacked for doing so, in which case they'll wind up unmotivated and value-less
14:14 < jrayhawk> (a circumstance schooling is specifically designed to engender)
14:15 < sylph_mako> It's pretty demoralizing losing sc games to people who spend hours a day absorbing instruction -_-
14:16 < delinquentme> sylph_mako, my biggest gripe is that only so often i get decisive victories
14:16 < delinquentme> thats what I like
14:16 < jrayhawk> that is because you have been trained to think winning matters more than learning does
14:16 < delinquentme> when i CRUSH MY ENEMIES
14:16 < jrayhawk> or even the simple act of play itself
14:16 < jrayhawk> which is essentially equivalent to learning
14:17 < sylph_mako> But I can't tell if I'm learning or not. I can't tell if my strategies work when I lose either way.
14:17 < jrayhawk> loss is far more educational than victory; i would say an hour spent winning is worth far less than an hour spent losing
14:17 < sylph_mako> I need friends who are as bad at sc as me.
14:18 < delinquentme> sylph_mako, so yeah thats where build orders come in
14:18 < delinquentme> essentially you google shit and just like in RL you learn from the hive
14:18 < sylph_mako> Learning scripts...
14:18 < delinquentme> so i had shitty build orders before
14:18 < delinquentme> after a little research you can get that down
14:18 < delinquentme> and then you get to about 40 supply where the complexity takes over and you can get creative
14:19 < delinquentme> its a wonderfully complex game
14:19 < delinquentme> lol im such a shit eating kid when it comes to that :D
14:19 < delinquentme> ROOOAARR blink stratS!
14:19 < delinquentme> and then of course demoralizing your opponents
14:20 < jrayhawk> That's one thing that's always confused me about games like DOTA and, to a lesser extent, Starcraft. If the first five minutes are boilerplate, why even have them?
14:20 < sylph_mako> jrayhawk, An hour spent winning, an hour spent losing, both worthless. Only a game consisting of many small wins and losses will tell you about the successes of individual units of strategy.
14:21 < sylph_mako> I just wanted more micro the whole time.
14:21 < jrayhawk> You would want a real-time tactics simulator, then.
14:22 < sylph_mako> I have a theory that the game would be far more visceral if we could have multiple commanders to a team.
14:23 < jrayhawk> Yeah, Starcraft had that in the form of, IIRC, "team melee"
14:23 < sylph_mako> I mean, like controlling one army.
14:23 < jrayhawk> It was fun to have one person dedicated to strategy and one to tactics.
14:23 < sylph_mako> Sounds worthwhile.
14:24 < jrayhawk> http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Team_Melee
14:25 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, well they're KIND of boiler plate
14:25 < delinquentme> there are "cheezers" as they're referred to as
14:25 < delinquentme> who get to incredible ranks by playing less-than-honorable? gaming strats
14:25 < delinquentme> and like if you get good at cheezing youll rape
14:26 < delinquentme> people have cheezed and pissed ppl off to the point where death threats were made
14:26 < delinquentme> and accounts were banned :P
14:26 < jrayhawk> Other than a gatherer-rush, it seems like there are no options up until the first offensive-unit structure.
14:26 < delinquentme> well its a balance between micro and macro
14:26 < delinquentme> and you can do 2v2 where youll have one person doing the micro and one macroing if you so choose
14:27 < delinquentme> but the strats are nuts
14:27 < delinquentme> and the following is fanatical
14:28 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, yeah but the first offensive structures are like 2 minutes in
14:28 < delinquentme> so yeah they could start the game with gatherers running and like 300 mins and it would cut of 2 mins
14:29 < jrayhawk> Yeah, starcraft is a fairly minor sinner in that regard. DOTA is just awful.
14:30 < delinquentme> ohh thats the WC3 mod right?
14:30 < delinquentme> thats HUGE
14:30 < delinquentme> that game if i recall correctly
14:30 < delinquentme> not to mention that top skill sc2 players bring in 400k at big tourneys
14:30 < delinquentme> but there is QUITE a bit of practice involved
14:35 < kanzure> man what am i doing in sf
14:35 < kanzure> why am i here
14:35 < jrayhawk> life is suffering
14:35 < jrayhawk> you are living large
14:36 < kanzure> life is suffering. victory is death! something something
14:36 < jrayhawk> death is only victory if you take the entire bay area with you
14:37 < delinquentme> kanzure, eff that
14:37 < delinquentme> Y U NO SF kanzure ?
14:37 < kanzure> what the fuck is it with you and the leters 'y u no'
14:37 < kanzure> *letters
14:37 < kanzure> it's a trend or something
14:37 < kanzure> you should stop...
14:37 < jrayhawk> y u no like y u no
14:37 < kanzure> LOLOLOLOLOL 1337
14:38 < kanzure> why is marliyn monroe using my app
14:38 < kanzure> she just posted a video
14:38 < kanzure> isn't she supposed to be dead
14:38 < jrayhawk> did you make a safety coffin app
14:38 < kanzure> not to my knowledge
14:39 < kanzure> anything's possible i guess
14:40 < delinquentme> YUO
14:41 < delinquentme> http://memegenerator.net/instance/12374980
14:41 < delinquentme> lulz.
14:42 < delinquentme> http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/10867/11128545.jpg
14:44 < kanzure> do you need medical attention?
14:49 < delinquentme> nurses.
14:49 < delinquentme> kanz were you at the theil thing?
14:49 < delinquentme> what was that about?
14:50 < kanzure> nope didn't know about it until after
14:51 < delinquentme> yeah the lego thing was novel
14:51 < delinquentme> i would have just built the biggest mismatched structure I could ..
14:52 < delinquentme> anyways .. have you worked w drew endy?
14:54 < kanzure> nope
15:05 < delinquentme> i thought he was pretty tied to OWW?
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15:48 < kanzure> deliquentme: he moved to stanford, away from openwetware
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16:38 < kanzure> "The findings only apply to the 612 chimpanzees owned or financed by the government. There are an additional 325 chimpanzees in research facilities around the country."
16:38 < kanzure> that's all?
16:38 < kanzure> surely our army of research chimps is larger?
16:43 < jrayhawk> Usually smaller, less dangerous apes are used.
16:44 < kanzure> marmosets
16:44 < kanzure> screw that let's demand that everyone uses silverbacks
16:47 < kanzure> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/29/article-1223621-06FD87B7000005DC-510_634x955.jpg
16:49 < jrayhawk> Does those 612/325 numbers include bonobos?
16:49 < jrayhawk> s/Does/Do/
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17:27 < Riencam> dear lord kanzure, did you remove me from the gtalk
17:30 < kanzure> huh? i haven't removed anyone
17:30 < kanzure> who are oyu
17:30 < kanzure> you
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17:43 < kanzure> http://open3dp.me.washington.edu/2011/12/printrbot-kickstarter-finish/
17:43 < kanzure> $830k
17:46 < kanzure> oh this is nice.. if they release code http://open3dp.me.washington.edu/2011/03/implicit-solid-modeling/
17:48 < kanzure> ah right.. freps. http://faculty.washington.edu/ganter/research.html
17:48 < kanzure> Ge(x,y,z) = max(x^2+y^2-196,-x^2-y^2+16,-min(max(x^2+y^2-138.0625000,-x^2-y^2+16,1/12*abs(z+20)-1,-z-20,-max(-x^2-y^2+64,x^2+y^2-625/4,1/8*abs(z+20)-1)),max(x^2+y^2-138.0625000,-x^2-y^2+16,1/12*abs(z-20)-1,z-20,-max(-x^2-y^2+64,x^2+y^2-625/4,1/8*abs(z-20)-1))),1/14*abs(z)-1
17:48 < kanzure> well it's obvious what that one is.
17:49 < eudoxia> the function that describes the center of an elastomer obviously
17:49 < kanzure> OBVIOUSLY
17:50 < eudoxia> like can't you people see
17:50 < kanzure> i'm not sure about the relative advantage of f-reps over patched b-reps really
17:51 < kanzure> individual surfaces patchworked together versus a single equation
17:53 < Riencam> this is the vanuatu guy. money should be arriving not too far from now.
17:53 < Riencam> where were you
17:54 < Stee|> kanzure, working on building a desktop SLA printer next semester maybe
18:00 < kanzure> Riencam: i am traveling
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18:25 < Riencam> i see
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18:27 < kanzure> win 6
18:27 < kanzure> ejri30pojr2`iopjr
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20:31 < strangewarp> Being depressed about all potential near-term events, while having an optimistic long-term philosophy like transhumanism, is really super-weird..
20:36 < eudoxia> It's pretty dissonant
20:36 < eudoxia> if you extrapolate (Or is it interpolate when you have two data points?) it means at some point things have to start getting better
20:47 < strangewarp> It seems, at times, that major governments and corporations are acting as though they've been explicitly advised to act against transhuman interests... (of course, Kass and Fukuyama advised Bush II, but that's only one datapoint and I'm wondering how widespread that sort of thing really is)
20:48 < Stee|> Hmm
20:49 < Stee|> you're perceiving wrong in my opinion
20:49 < Stee|> people act against things they don't understand
20:50 < kanzure> maybe you should act as if you don't expect any support from them
20:50 < strangewarp> True.. that's a simpler explanation
20:51 < Stee|> and not to trivialize
20:51 < Stee|> but a lot of 'normal' folks are squicked out by transsexuals
20:51 < Stee|> and that's barely dipping a toe into transhumanism as a larger philosophical bent
20:52 < sylph_mako> Maybe sudden rapid change would cause severe instability and leaders know this? Why rush what's inevitable?
20:52 < strangewarp> kanzure: Been trying to do that. I think I'm on the ass-end of transhumanism, since I'm unemployed and only have knowledge and education in the fine arts. Not much of an asset to the struggle
20:53 < strangewarp> Stee|: Hm, I suppose I'm just pining for the security of a narrative, where there isn't one
20:53 < Stee|> strangewarp, what's your FA background?
20:54 < strangewarp> Studio arts, though I'm pretty sure I picked the wrong degree for my interests. Doing music things now.
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20:54 < Stee|> there's always a lack of transhumanist cultural objects
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20:55 < strangewarp> Indeed.. the only major explicitly transhumanist musical groups are Mind.in.a.box and The Kovenant, and I have issues with the quality of both of them
20:56 < eudoxia> the last time I youtubed "transhumanist music" all I got was this shitty slideshow of space CGI along with the sound of a brick tumbling in a broken washing machine
20:57 < eudoxia> I expected the GITS OST at least
20:57 < strangewarp> The music from GITS was quite good...
20:58 < klafka> gits is quality
20:58 < Stee|> I mean
20:59 < Stee|> I'm working with a friend of mine to understand what sort of themes and narrative you can weave into transhuman inspired jewelry and fashion
21:03 < klafka> what would you define as a transhumanistic theme?
21:03 < strangewarp> I always felt that arts based on the bodmod elements of transhumanism were some sort of compromise, as it's impossible for them to live up to the ideal... though there are artists like ORLAN who are conscious of that fact, and play with it in a way (actually I ought to read up on ORLAN's work more)
21:06 < klafka> hmm interesting artist
21:06 < strangewarp> klafka: Hmm... my definition is pretty broad, I guess, considering I drifted into transhumanism from the direction of the furry community, and even though they're largely totemic or fetishistic without having any opinions about technology, I like applying their semiotics to things
21:07 < Stee|> Bleh :(
21:07 < klafka> what are furry semiotics
21:07 < sylph_mako> their artistic language.
21:07 < klafka> I was asking for what that was
21:07 < strangewarp> focus on the body, whereas the transhumanism I've encountered has largely been focused on the environment or the mind.
21:07 < klafka> aah
21:07 < klafka> I see
21:07 < eudoxia> furry what
21:08 < eudoxia> it doesn't show up on google, that's what it is
21:08 < Stee|> I mean, for instance I've worked on themes involving stylized carbon nanotube dna
21:08 < strangewarp> semiotics: the symbolism and tropes involved with a given thing. :p
21:08 < eudoxia> I sort of like Luis Royo for the transhumanist themes
21:08 < sylph_mako> You can't write down a semiotic =J
21:08 < Stee|> yeah, I'd like to not mix transhumanism with that, though unfortunately it seems rather difficult at points.
21:08 < eudoxia> http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f181/47990d1241579080-louis-royo-art-part-1-3-luis-royo-21-.jpg
21:08 < eudoxia> particularly this: http://onlyhdwallpapers.com/wallpaper/luis_royo_looks_nice_fantasy_love_general_desktop_1024x768_wallpaper-50419.jpg
21:09 < Stee|> you can have a glossary
21:09 < Stee|> honestly
21:09 < klafka> interesting
21:09 < Stee|> I try to pull from enlightenment era stuff a decent amount
21:10 < klafka> sylph, you can study and describe semiotics thoug
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21:12 < sylph_mako> I smell transhuman themes in everything. Dune is all about a certain kind of transhumanism. Breeding and spice. Then God Emperor Leto takes it even further.
21:13 < sylph_mako> All despite denying the technological singularity.
21:13 < eudoxia> haha, I do the same thing
21:13 < sylph_mako> =J What's the song that sounds most transhuman to you while having nothing to do with it?
21:14 < eudoxia> Lithium Flower
21:14 < Stee|> Ironman, Black Sabbath
21:14 < sylph_mako> Mine's Je Me Souvines, Jean Michelle Jar. Sounds like a mind transcended flesh handling its old human memories like tangible objects.
21:14 < klafka> sylph_mako there are tons of transhumanist themes in literature
21:14 < sylph_mako> Yeah I guess.
21:14 < klafka> like look at all the literature on singularity scifi
21:14 < eudoxia> I mean, Jesus, I thought Hylas and the Nymphs had "transhumanist themes". I'm that gone
21:15 < klafka> i'd say all of glitch-hop has strong trends of transhumanism
21:15 < Stee|> I wish there was more posthumanist fiction, compared to stuff like accelerando
21:15 < eudoxia> what do you mean posthumanist?
21:16 < eudoxia> taking place _after_ the entire solar system implements the Von Neumann architecture, as opposed to during?
21:16 < Stee|> err, more focused on uplifted humans than consequences of ai stuff
21:16 < eudoxia> right
21:17 < strangewarp> Septic Flesh did some interesting songs that were incidentally about transhuman themes without being transhumanist, and I've been listening to them a lot lately since it's pretty quality music... ("Revolution DNA" isn't as good as their other albums though)
21:17 < eudoxia> more transhumanist than singularitarian
21:17 < klafka> um  Stee|  stross actually has a good book or novella on that actually
21:17 < klafka> well it deals with both
21:18 < eudoxia> which one?
21:18 < klafka> ahaha i was actually thinking of accelerando
21:18 < eudoxia> I assumed
21:18 < Stee|> eh
21:18 < klafka> just been awhile since i read it
21:18 < Stee|> accelerando also has weird sexual politics and shit
21:19 < eudoxia> haha, I remember that
21:19 < klafka> also there is stuff like the lord of light
21:19 < klafka> you could interpret that in a very transhumanist way
21:20 < strangewarp> Accelerando's sexual politics, to me, read like they were written by a vanilla guy who was trying desperately to come up with contentious sexual politics ideas
21:21 < Stee|> friends came over, afk
21:21  * strangewarp waves
21:22  * eudoxia waves and returns to finding hidden futurist themes in John Waterhouse paintings
21:25 < sylph_mako> xD
21:28 < sylph_mako> I just realized that a grip augmentation device[maybe little more than a two fingered claw wired to track with a person's fingers and atached to a forearm harness] would be either extremely useful for acrobatics, or the enabler of hundreds of shoulder dislocation injuries.
21:29 < eudoxia> http://davidszondy.com/future/robot/hardiman3.jpg two fingered claw and exoskeleton
21:29 < sylph_mako> =D
21:31 < sylph_mako> Less an exoskeleton than a motor on wheels that follows you around?
21:31 < eudoxia> take it or leave it
21:33 < sylph_mako> A true traceur would find a way.
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 18 00:00:33 2011