--- Log opened Fri Dec 23 00:00:41 2011
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01:14 < Mariu> hello
01:53 < strangewarp> Hmmm. IEET is asking for very short fiction. Doesn't look like they're paying for it, but I'm still tempted...
02:00 < Steel`> when's the submission deadline?
02:02 < Steel`> oh, there is none
02:03 < strangewarp> indeed
02:04 < Steel`> well shit.
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02:04 < strangewarp> I have a quarter-finished novel, and a couple ideas that would end up too big. Brrr
02:05 < Steel`> I need to write my shortstory the Man of 2030
02:05 < Steel`> maybe narrow the scope a bit.
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02:08 < strangewarp> Aye, narrow scope is weird to write.. I always feel like I need to launch into a plot arc, I guess, instead of sticking to a vignette :p
02:08 < Steel`> I'm not really interested in being a writer, per se, but I have some ideas
02:12 < strangewarp> I could probably be nudged into writing as a career, but yeah.. my enthusiasm is only moderate, I think.
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07:02 < Mokbortolan_> Hmmm
07:03 < Mokbortolan_> bleh
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07:20 < JayDugger> This is a test
07:22 < Mokbortolan_> test!
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07:43 < JayDugger> Hooray! ISP's tech support promptly fixes a problem.
07:44 < JayDugger> Boo! ISP billing refuses to pro-rate my bill.
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08:03 < kanzure> anyone found supporting ieet will be shot
08:04 < JayDugger> Heh, heh, heh...
08:06 < Mokbortolan_> ...into a room full of pillows and naked models?
08:06 < JayDugger> Nope. Into a room full of broken glass and cactus spines.
08:07 < JayDugger> and rubbing alcohol, just to make it sting.
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09:01 < Mokbortolan_> what's IEET?
09:04 < kanzure> just some people who tookover the world transhumanist association to advertise for 'citizen cyborg', some socially-wanky-danky book
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09:37 < Mokbortolan_> huh
09:37 < Mokbortolan_> citizen cyborg?
09:59 < Urchin> book by James Hughes
09:59 < Urchin> one of the founers of WTA
10:00 < Urchin> or at least spent some time as a director of WTA
10:00 < Urchin> I have the book, he gave it to me
10:09 < Mokbortolan_> nice
10:09 < Mokbortolan_> did he sign it?
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11:10 < Urchin> no
11:10 < Urchin> but it was for free
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11:11 < Urchin> and I gave him a CD of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
11:32 < bkero> <3 SMAC
11:33 < eudoxia> seconding that
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11:45 < kanzure> someone should package repraps with solidworks or something silly for a bundle-saving deal
11:46 < kanzure> "Lin and her colleagues found that Npas4 turns on a series of other genes that modify the brain’s internal wiring by adjusting the strength of synapses, or connections between neurons."
11:46 < kanzure> "Npas4 activation occurs primarily in the CA3 region of the hippocampus"
11:46 < bkero> lol smart gene
11:46 < kanzure> "When the researchers knocked out the gene for Npas4, they found that mice could not remember their fearful conditioning. They also found that this effect could be produced by knocking out the gene just in the CA3 region of the hippocampus. Knocking it out in other parts of the hippocampus, however, had no effect."
11:48 < kanzure> Kartik Ramamoorthi et al., Npas4 Regulates a Transcriptional Program in CA3 Required for Contextual Memory Formation, Science, 2011 [DOI: 10.1126/science.1208049]
11:48 < kanzure> http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1208049
11:49 < kanzure> i find it a little strange that 'contextual fear conditioning' can be narrowed down to a single transcription factor
11:49 < kanzure> even if it is 'upstream'
11:50 < kanzure> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/chemical-compatibility-database/id408288716?mt=8
11:50 < kanzure> http://diybio.org/safety/biosafety-resources
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14:46 < kanzure> "A buffer overflow in telnetd that allows arbitrary execution as root from remote TCP connections" (in freebsd) http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-security-notifications/2011-December/000165.html
14:46 < kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3386264
14:55 < kanzure> "Maybe Musk has a mad scientist program researching Martian terraforming. If he decided to crash a couple rovers carrying nukes into the Martian polar ice caps to create a greenhouse effect, does the US government have the legal or technical capability to stop him?"
14:56 < eudoxia> What's the point of a rover with a nuke on it?
14:57 < eudoxia> Drifting a couple miles until the solar panels are covered in dust and you can't detonate it?
14:57 < eudoxia> Correction, a couple hundred meters
15:01 < kanzure> there's a layer of dry ice on the martian poles (or at least one of the poles) and underneath is frozen water
15:01 < kanzure> so i guess someone wanted to nuke the dry ice to get to the water
15:03 < eudoxia> But you could just have a probe vernier it's way through the atmosphere and crash instead of landing some multi million dollar probe
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15:50 < JayDugger> It would take a whole lot of nukes to make the Martian terraforming useful.
15:50 < JayDugger> I can look up the numbers from Fogg's Terraforming, if anyone cares. (I had to do it for a RPG earlier this year.)
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15:53 < JayDugger> http://www.amazon.com/Terraforming-Engineering-Environments-Martyn-Fogg/dp/1560916095
15:53 < JayDugger> A used copy will set you back about $290.
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15:59 < JayDugger> Musk hasn't got any nukes, much less enough to release volatiles from Martian rocks or permafrost, and if he did, he hasn't got enough on Mars--assuming Mars has enough permafrost or volatile-rich rocks in the first place.
16:01 < eudoxia> crash Phobos into Mars, rising the temperature, restarting the core thus bringing back the magnetosphere
16:01 < JayDugger> That won't work either for thickening the atmosphere.
16:02 < eudoxia> The thousands of cubic kilometers of regolith that will be vaporized in the impact will create an atmosphere
16:02 < JayDugger> Yes, but not very much.
16:02 < eudoxia> ... crash deimos?
16:02 < JayDugger> Hang on, let me type out the table from Fogg.
16:02 < eudoxia> I'm sorry, it's just that I had this friend who always kept talking about crashing Phobos, and I thought he was being 'hilarious', but then it turned out it was a serious proposal...
16:03 < eudoxia> Until by BOTE calculations destroyed his hopes
16:03 < JayDugger> No worries, Eudoxia--it's not a bad idea because it's not serious, but because it's insufficient.
16:04 < JayDugger> Assuming you've a sediment bed a 100 m thick of pure calcite
16:04 < eudoxia> I think the most reasonable way is self-replicating machines with ISRU making a small army of themselves and then building chemical plants
16:04 < JayDugger> And you've a target of putting enough carbon dioxide into the atmosphere to give you a 300 mbar pressure.
16:05 < JayDugger> Fogg calculates the optimal yield for each device, assuming you drill wells to place them, at 0.7 megatons each.
16:06 < JayDugger> Want to guess how many you need, to the nearest order of magnitude?
16:06 < eudoxia> Oh ho ho I wouldn't miss it for the world
16:06 < eudoxia> It's probably something like 10e5
16:06 < JayDugger> Not even close.
16:07 < eudoxia> 10e8
16:07 < eudoxia> 10e15?
16:07 < eudoxia> Hot or cold?
16:07 < JayDugger> Sorry, misread the first one.
16:07 < JayDugger> 4.07 x 10^9
16:08 < eudoxia> hahaha what the fuck
16:08 < JayDugger> To put it in perspective, that would've been the rough equivalent of a city-busting thermonuclear bomb for every human being alive at the end of the Cold War.
16:08 < JayDugger> Not a tactical nuke--a city-buster.
16:09 < JayDugger> That also implies drilling billions of wells to place the devices.
16:09 < eudoxia> And one nuke for 68% of the current population
16:09 < eudoxia> according to W|A
16:10 < JayDugger> Right.
16:11 < JayDugger> Fogg estimates the cost at $10.375 trillion (current US$).
16:11 < eudoxia> I sent these numbers to my friend to see how he freaks out.
16:14 < JayDugger> Whoops! That should've been $10.38 x 10^15, not 10^12.
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16:17 < JayDugger> Or about 172 times the World GNP in 2007.
16:17 < eudoxia> I wonder how much uranium you'd need for that
16:18 < JayDugger> Very little.
16:18 < JayDugger> Fogg also assumes you use lithium deuteride explosives and get a 100% yield, just to ease the math.
16:18 < eudoxia> But a lot of it is sorted out in those centrifuges.
16:19 < JayDugger> Well...yes, but bombs are a subset of explosives.
16:20 < JayDugger> The centrifuges you hear about for atomic bombs are for fission bombs. Fogg assumes you use thermonuclear explosives, or "second-generation nukes."
16:20 < eudoxia> fission-catalyzed fusion bombs?
16:21 < JayDugger> triggered, not catalyzed, but otherwise yes.
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16:22 < JayDugger> Fogg assumes a particular design for the nuclear charges. You can build them in place, so you don't need to make them deliverable by missile or air-drop.
16:22 < eudoxia> it's 'triggered' and not 'catalyzed' because the fission charge only exists in the first step of the reaction, yes?
16:24 < JayDugger> "Thermonuclear fusion is triggered by a high explosive shaped charge lenses which implode a magnetized deuterium-tritium plasma that has been preheated to about 10^6K by a chemical laser. Energy from the resulting thermonuclear micro-explosion is then focused onto an ignition point, whereupon an autocatalytic detonation wave propagates down a canister of LiD thermonuclear fuel. The canister can be fashioned as a long cy
16:25 < eudoxia> linder
16:25 < JayDugger> ANyhow, in a sentence--not even remotely practical because Mars probably lacks enough volatiles to start with, regardless of how many billions of nukes you use.
16:25 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone.
16:25 < eudoxia> Good night
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19:35 < nsh[cgi]> tell me cool things
19:35 < nsh[cgi]> go!
19:36 < eudoxia> axons in the brain can be up to two meters long
19:37 < nsh[cgi]> i wonder what the signal attenuation is like over that distance
19:37 < foucist> eudoxia: oh yeah? mine is 10 meters long!
19:37 < nsh[cgi]> what are neural impulses anyway, what's progressing, charge-density?
19:38 < nsh[cgi]> membrane potential
19:38 < eudoxia> it's like a charge that's transmitted through the cytoplasm or some shit
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19:38 < eudoxia> i know it's electrical, at least, because my textbook said so
19:39 < kanzure> superkuh: i think you looked into membrane potentials a lot
19:42  * nsh[cgi] considers absolute refractory periods
19:42 < nsh[cgi]> kanzure: s'new witchoo?
19:42 < nsh[cgi]> [what's new with you]
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21:22 < superkuh> Yes. The action potential (AP) is not attenuated by distances. It can be described in a couple complementary ways, depending on how you wish to observe it. The current flow associated with the AP is only transverse to the direction of "motion"; the movement of charge across a ~10nm bilayer lipid membrane. The signal that is observed to propagate longitudinally without attenuation is the electrical potential. No charge moves longitudinally
21:22 < superkuh> . This movement of charge, and specifically the exchange of monovalent for divalent cations bound to the carboxyl groups on the heads of the phospholipid membrane can also be described an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt physical phase changes in the lipid bilayer. The change in phase (ordering and 'solidification' of the lipids as the AP passes) is also correlated with a reversible uptake and release of heat.
21:22 < superkuh> nsh[cgi] , eudoxia , kanzure ^
21:24 < eudoxia> ok, so ions are exchanged in the membrane of an axon resulting in longitudinal motion of the charge, until it reaches a bouton or a synapse or w/e and it begins to release neurotransmitters?
21:24 < superkuh> There is no longitudinal motion of the charge.
21:25 < eudoxia> longitudinal exchange of ions along the membrane
21:25 < superkuh> No.
21:25 < superkuh> Transverse.
21:25 < eudoxia> derp
21:26 < eudoxia> How does the charge move from the soma to the axon if the exchange is transversal
21:26 < superkuh> It doesn't.
21:26 < eudoxia> Okay
21:27 < eudoxia> What you were describing was only the synapse?
21:28 < superkuh> No. I am describing the action potential as it propagates down the axon.
21:29 < superkuh> The movement of charge is always transverse to the movement of the action potential. This transverse movement of charge induces a 'chain reaction' you might say which causes the next segment down the axon to depolarize transversally. This is observed as an electrical potential which moves longitudinally.
21:30 < superkuh> This is true for unmyelinated and myelinated axons, but the nature is most obvious in myelinated axons.
21:30 < eudoxia> Okay, so the charge causes an ion exchange from, say,the inside of the axon to the outside, then the other way around a little further away, so the overall charge always moves away from the Soma?
21:30 < superkuh> http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Saltatory_conduction
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 24 00:00:42 2011