--- Log opened Mon Jan 23 00:00:28 2012 00:30 -!- NCC-A3 [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:31 -!- NCC-A3 [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:12 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:16 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-246-114.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:32 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:36 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07 -!- marainein [~marainein@114-198-95-243.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:24 -!- gedankenstuecke [~bastian@phylomemetic-tree.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-67-172-85.shv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:52 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@DSLPool-net208-2.wctc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:25 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:43 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@DSLPool-net208-2.wctc.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.1 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 07:26 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:29 -!- klafka [~textual@c-71-204-150-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:29 -!- derping [ba34bcb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.52.188.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:29 -!- derping [ba34bcb4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.52.188.180] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:59 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-188-180.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:10 -!- He||eshin is now known as Helleshin 08:31 < kanzure> god i'm tired of everyone and their mom saying "I SHOULD CREATE A PHPBB FOR TRANSHUMANISMS!!" 08:32 < kanzure> No, you shouldn't, and you should get back to work on projects 08:33 -!- ziyadb [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hkzudvitdbfyhjqz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41 < archels> But what if your project is creating a phpBB instance for transhumanisms? 08:43 < kanzure> what the heck does that do? hooray yet another place to talk about transhumanism? 08:44 < archels> 'Transhumanism' is just so general a topic. 08:45 < kanzure> it'll probably be a bunch of ethics debates 08:47 < archels> yeah, stop mentally masturbating about the subject and go invent the next generation of already. 08:48 < kanzure> doesn't have to be next-gen 08:48 < kanzure> that would be nice and cool and all 08:49 < strages_work> out of curiosity, what technologies are you working on? 08:49 < kanzure> mostly software-related projects at the moment 08:49 < kanzure> then all this stuff http://diyhpl.us/cgit/ 08:50 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:51 < strages_work> oooh :D 08:51 < strages_work> nice list 08:52 < kanzure> strages_work: feel free to do things here http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html 08:53 * archels computational neuroscience thesis 08:53 < kanzure> slacker... 08:53 < kanzure> :) 08:54 < strages_work> I'll run the list by some of the hackerspace folks I know, should speed stuff up should anyone bite 08:55 < strages_work> I'm working on a mesh network setup for emergency use cases using off the shelf equipment. 08:56 < strages_work> then buidling a quick communication infrastructure on top of that 08:57 < strages_work> dns, captive portal, wiki, message board, chat, and crude voip 08:57 < eudoxia> what about an h+ wiki? 08:57 < kanzure> eudoxia: git clone git://diyhpl.us/srv/git/diyhpluswiki.git 08:57 < kanzure> this controls http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ 08:58 < kanzure> syntax is markdown 08:58 < eudoxia> how do I use that 08:58 < eudoxia> there's no search box ;_; 08:58 < kanzure> do you know how to use git 08:58 < eudoxia> never needed version control so no 08:58 < kanzure> what do you think a wiki is? o.o 08:59 < eudoxia> fine 08:59 < eudoxia> never used it directly 08:59 < kanzure> well, first, it's not a search box, but rather a way to keep a copy and edit it 08:59 < kanzure> then you can push back changes 08:59 < kanzure> would you like an account? 09:00 < eudoxia> how do I get an index of the pages? 09:00 < eudoxia> or does it work, uh, not like that 09:00 < kanzure> i don't think there's currently an index module installed 09:00 < kanzure> jrayhawk: right? 09:00 < kanzure> eudoxia: the quickest way would be to look at the repository contents under cgit 09:00 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/ 09:01 < eudoxia> If I git clone it do I get a bunch of folders and files with the contents? 09:01 < kanzure> yes 09:01 < eudoxia> great 09:01 < kanzure> with their revision history 09:02 < kanzure> what's your email? 09:02 -!- ziyadb [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smotuacbetqgcsbe] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 -!- ziyadb [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smotuacbetqgcsbe] has quit [Changing host] 09:02 -!- ziyadb [u4806@unaffiliated/ziyadb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 -!- ziyadb [u4806@unaffiliated/ziyadb] has quit [Changing host] 09:02 -!- ziyadb [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-smotuacbetqgcsbe] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 < eudoxia> kanzure: eudoxiahp@gmail.com 09:02 < kanzure> ah, hell 09:02 < kanzure> well whatever 09:02 < kanzure> see pm 09:03 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-246-114.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:04 < kanzure> ok that's all. 09:04 -!- Z_ [3a6a1084@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.106.16.132] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:04 < kanzure> hi Z_ 09:05 < Z_> Hi all. First time here. 09:05 < kanzure> eudoxia: can you play with our guest :3 09:05 < kanzure> i'll bbl 09:06 < eudoxia> oh I feel honored 09:06 < eudoxia> hey Z, how did you come across this channel= 09:06 < eudoxia> ?* 09:08 < Z_> Sorry, was AFK for a min. Transhumanists I know via FB is the answer to your question. 09:10 < Omega> I don't know how I found this place 09:11 < eudoxia> and how long have you been interested un transhumanism? 09:12 < Z_> My turn - gonna ask a few things here. Approximate number of people who use this channel (total and at a given time), level of involvement and activity (average) of members, topics discussed, ultimate purpose of this channel? 09:13 < kanzure> Z_: are you zeid 09:13 < eudoxia> Doesn't fluctuate much from this number, either sporadic activity or long interesting discussions (Log size is proportional to this), the topic + lots of programming and biology, don't know 09:15 < eudoxia> kanzure, what is the ultimate purpose of this channel? 09:15 < Z_> Yes. 09:15 < kanzure> eudoxia: transhumanist tech development 09:17 < Z_> In order for that to be achieved, a focused collective of some sort (not necessarily geographically proximal) has to be formed. Kanzure, have you spoken to davidad? 09:17 < kanzure> yes i know davidad 09:18 < kanzure> why is everyone always telling me about forums, collectives, social media, marketing, promotion 09:18 < kanzure> look, we have that covered- everyone and their dog knows about it 09:19 < kanzure> hiveminds and memes 09:19 < kanzure> knowing about these concepts isn't rare 09:19 < Z_> How do you envision significant tech development to occurr in the absence of unity of purpose? 09:20 < kanzure> why are you assuming absence of unity of purpose 09:20 < kanzure> that's somewhat insulting heh 09:22 < Z_> I have seen no evidence to the contrary; you yourself indicated your frustration with the 'talk'. 09:22 < kanzure> yeah, i'm just not interested in forums of transhumanist philosophers, ethicists, riskists, etc. 09:22 < Z_> And I wasn't talking about hive minds and social media at Ll. 09:22 < kanzure> they've been around forever writing position papers 09:22 < Z_> All* 09:23 < kanzure> Z_: true, i was grouping yuo together with a stereotype that we see in here 09:23 < Z_> Stereotyping is illogical. Don't assume anything about me. 09:24 < kanzure> i could say the same about your assumptions of tech development? 09:24 < kanzure> oh well 09:24 < kanzure> i should just write a faq 09:24 < Z_> I'm not interested in ivory tower debate either. I am, however, interested in practical , real, change. 09:24 < kanzure> change? 09:25 < kanzure> ok how about you pick a particular project 09:25 < kanzure> like "I want to build a computer" 09:26 < Z_> Look, we can argue and bicker, or try to find common ground. The choice is yours. 09:27 < kanzure> um, we're not arguing 09:27 < kanzure> second, it sounds like you really really disagree with me about tech development 09:27 < kanzure> but maybe you're not interested in that 09:27 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:27 < kanzure> maybe your interests are something else 09:28 < Z_> I mean significant tech develop,ent. That does not happen with DIY projects that anyone with a brain can do. Serious tech requires serious resources, and that requires a dedicated community. And that requires building such a comunity 09:29 < jrayhawk> oh yeh, i should add search 09:29 < kanzure> jrayhawk: or index 09:29 < eudoxia> thanks jrayhawk 09:29 < kanzure> eudoxia: jrayhawk is the sysadmin that picks up my slack 09:29 < Z_> Pardon the typos, iPads and Orc don't mix well. 09:29 < Z_> Irc 09:29 < kanzure> you're on an ipad? 09:30 < kanzure> Z_: so, even "serious tech" is done by individuals 09:30 < kanzure> it might not be marketed as diy 09:30 < kanzure> but it's still people behind it 09:30 < kanzure> regardless of community 09:31 < jrayhawk> ugh, my auth model does not do well with search. i should redo that. 09:31 < kanzure> i don't know; you're welcome into this community, as you know 09:32 < Z_> Sure, you can have tech created by a random group of people. My point is, if you want specific tech, especially the kind that runs contrary to popular interests, you need a group of people who share some sets of goals in common. 09:32 < kanzure> yes, you've found us 09:33 < kanzure> do you want to work on a specific project with us? there's lots going on 09:33 < jrayhawk> the last commit to skdb.git is almost a year old! 09:33 < Z_> My primary interest is AGI. yours? 09:34 < kanzure> jrayhawk: you should bug fenn 09:35 < kanzure> Z_: human enhancement 09:36 < Z_> Biological/genetic or artificial/cybernetic? 09:36 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ 09:36 < kanzure> i focus on most aspects 09:37 < kanzure> i don't really make much progress with agi, but i do have a partialness towards computational neuroscience and whole brain emulation 09:37 < kanzure> or partial brain emulation as it were.. 09:37 < Z_> How's blue brain going? 09:38 < kanzure> i think they are having funding issues? 09:38 < kanzure> not sure 09:41 < utopiah_> Z_: they dont bother to say , http://bluebrain.epfl.ch had maximum 10 news since the project started and most were ads for IBM and how cool visualizations mattered :/ 09:41 < Z_> I love comp neuro and emulation. Too, but I don't think it will be achieved within my lifetime, hence my choice of AGI. Don't think huge progress will be made in your fields of interest due to silly cultural biases held by the masses. 09:41 < kanzure> utopiah_: they are still publishing papers, however 09:41 < kanzure> Z_: i'm not the masses; i think there has been tremendous progress in cheap diy open source lab equipment 09:42 < kanzure> we've reduced the price of thermocyclers from $50,000 to $25 09:42 < kanzure> (ok i'm cheating a little) 09:42 < Z_> Fucking iPad, excuse any punctuation, grammar, etc errors. 09:43 < Z_> I'm not disputing g that. 09:43 < Z_> What I'm saying is that in order to understand the human brain in order to emulate it, you need ... Samp 09:43 < Z_> Es... 09:43 < Z_> Samples... 09:44 < kanzure> sure 09:45 < Z_> At some point, living ones...destructive scanning processes ... Not going to happen. 09:46 < kanzure> destructive scanning already works 09:47 < Z_> Non sequitur, but how cool is Eureka! 09:48 < kanzure> the television show? pretty gimmicky? 09:48 < Z_> Not wha I meant. I meant - destructive scanning on living specimens? Ethical issues will prevent that from happening. 09:49 < Z_> No, the software program that automates research. 09:49 < jrayhawk> we're not at the point of needing them; no sense caring about human brains at this point. 09:49 < eudoxia> destructive scanning on dead specimens is more likely 09:49 < eudoxia> ATLUM etc. 09:49 < eudoxia> no ethical considerations on the dead, plus you might even bring them back! (lol) 09:50 < kanzure> eudoxia: there's a few companies working on this, 09:50 < kanzure> the diamond knife-edge microscope and all that.. like 3scan 09:50 < Z_> Agreed. AGI just seems more realis 09:50 < kanzure> the 3scan guy (todd huffman) lives with fenn, iirc 09:51 < Z_> realistic and more likely to produce great things.* 09:51 < jrayhawk> so long as you don't mind the obselesence of humanity 09:51 < kanzure> i can't think of anyone who argues AGI development will be faster than whole brain emulation development 09:51 < kanzure> *is faster 09:51 < eudoxia> I want to know, how many people are working on AGI? 09:51 < kanzure> considering the current progress in computational neuroscience 09:51 < eudoxia> besides Ben Goertzel/Yudkowsky etc. 09:51 < kanzure> eudoxia: well it depends on what you mean by AGI 09:52 < Z_> Exactly. 09:52 < jrayhawk> faster for what purpose? 09:52 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i don't know what purpose Z_ is arguing about 09:52 < kanzure> but he's claiming AGI is more realistic than destructive scanning of brain tissue (something we've seen already) 09:52 < kanzure> i think 09:53 < Z_> Noon, not at all... Sorry if I haven't been very clear, it's 4 am. 09:53 < kanzure> do you have a keyboard for your ipad? 09:53 < Z_> Unfortunately not... 09:54 < eudoxia> kanzure: AI that isn't bounded by a particular domain? that can learn general tasks? 09:54 < eudoxia> I wouldn't know how to define it 09:55 < jrayhawk> Real-time whole-brain emulation isn't viable with todays computational tools and probably be for another two or more decades 09:56 < Z_> Kan, thanks for introducing me to this channel btw. 09:56 < jrayhawk> We don't really know the computational requirements for AGI, but, unless you're proposing that the human brain, borne of evolutionary happenstance, is a paragon of computational efficiency, it's presumably less. 09:57 < Z_> AGI is further away yet... But I think it holds a lot more promise. 09:57 < kanzure> Z_: you're very welcome 09:57 < jrayhawk> We don't *know* if it's further away, is the thing. 09:58 < Z_> I should clarify: iM talking about strong AGI. 09:58 < jrayhawk> In many ways, whole brain emulation is the worse case scenario, since we can iterate real fast from a working brain model and get AGI one way or another. 09:58 < jrayhawk> s/worse/worst/ 09:58 < jrayhawk> wait, how did i get tricked into talking about strong AI in here 09:59 < jrayhawk> i am just asking to get kicked 09:59 < Z_> M,m, but such an au would be very anthropomorphic.. 09:59 < jrayhawk> It *might* be anthropomorphic. 09:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk: you just need to be very careful when talking about "ai" 09:59 < Z_> Lol.... Strong AGI is frowned on here? 09:59 < kanzure> saying things like, "i know what intelligence is" will get you kicked 09:59 < kanzure> or using the word "intelligence", that too 09:59 < Z_> Baaahahaha 10:00 < jrayhawk> We'll know it when we see it, guys, we swear 10:00 < kanzure> i'm not even sure if i'm intelligent 10:00 < Z_> I I don't even know if intelligence is real... Getting a wee bit philoshical there though. 10:00 < kanzure> exactly.. so how can you make something you don't know is real? 10:01 < kanzure> wait, that's the wrong question 10:01 < jrayhawk> Intelligence is the conceit that we are better than monkeys. 10:01 < jrayhawk> So long as machines are conceit-free, we'll never have true AI 10:01 < kanzure> isn't that supposed to be culture, not intelligence? 10:01 < jrayhawk> CASE CLOSED 10:01 < jrayhawk> damnit I SAID CASE CLOSED 10:01 < Z_> Ahahaha, a novel take. 10:02 < Z_> But in answer to the question how can we make something we don't even know to be real/possible... 10:03 < Z_> We're humans! 10:03 < kanzure> we know human brains do something interesting; we don't know if "intelligence" is sufficient or relevant 10:04 < strages_work> kanzure: are you involved with a hackerspace? 10:04 < kanzure> *we don't know if explains exactly what human brains are doing that is interesting to transhumanists 10:04 < strages_work> I don't remember 10:04 < kanzure> strages_work: i was involved with the austin hackerspace for a while, but they moved away so i sorta stopped going 10:04 < strages_work> moved away? 10:05 < kanzure> they moved out of a hackerspace into their own hackerspace 10:05 < kanzure> haha 10:05 < kanzure> it's a long story 10:05 < kanzure> but anyway, they are a few miles away now and i don't go in that direction often 10:05 < kanzure> it used to be down the street from me, easy biking distance 10:07 < strages_work> ah ok. one of the members from my local hackerspace recently visited them 10:07 < kanzure> makelocal? 10:07 < strages_work> correct 10:07 < kanzure> make25something.. i forget which one you are 10:07 < kanzure> ok 10:07 < strages_work> makers local 256 10:07 < Z_> In response kanzure: 'there are as many different visions of Transhumanism as there are Transhumanists to envision them' - I, for one, am fascinated by the phenomenon we term intelligence. 10:08 < Z_> Goddamn iPad, capitalizing my shit.. Lol. 10:08 < kanzure> does ipad auto capitalize ipad? 10:08 < strages_work> there's also a diybio exclusive hackerspace looking for space here in town. they're trying to foster a relationship with us as we're well established and have infrastructure tooling 10:08 < kanzure> strages_work: genspace? biocurious? 10:08 < jrayhawk> they make these things called "keyboards" i think you might like them 10:08 < jrayhawk> i know i do! 10:09 < kanzure> jrayhawk: keyboards are an amazing advancement in tech 10:09 < strages_work> kanzure: very similar to both of those. I believe they've visited both of them. 10:09 < kanzure> it's going to be the latest craze 10:09 < kanzure> strages_work: where are you? 10:09 < kanzure> alabama? 10:09 < strages_work> Huntsville, AL 10:09 < kanzure> yeah, i'm not aware of any diybio/alabama groups at the moment 10:09 < kanzure> cool 10:10 < strages_work> there are several genetics companies in town. Operon, Hudson Alpha, etc 10:10 < Z_> I have a 3 grand laptop with this magical keyboard you speak of 2metres away... But the iPad is a new toy :D 10:10 < kanzure> Z_: ipad can use bluetooth keyboards 10:11 < jrayhawk> okay, new plan: tape the ipad to your laptop 10:11 < jrayhawk> or glue, i guess it doesn't matter 10:11 < Z_> I know lol ... But then it wouldn't be a proper tablet, to me anyway. 10:11 < Z_> Tell you what. 10:11 < kanzure> jrayhawk: mom got herself this http://www.asus.com/Eee/Eee_Pad/Eee_Pad_Transformer_TF101/ 10:11 < Z_> On the way to ful emulation 10:12 < kanzure> it lags like crazy when i try typnig 10:12 < kanzure> *typing 10:12 < Z_> I'm sure you guys could fix me up with a DNI 10:12 < kanzure> Z_: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/ 10:12 < Z_> then I'll just think to my iPad 25 10:12 < Z_> And yes, it does citalise itself 10:13 < Z_> Capitalize 10:13 < Z_> Seems not to fucking spellcheck though 10:13 < jrayhawk> ick, android 10:14 < jrayhawk> ASUS used to be in the cool kids club with Intel and Nokia :( 10:14 < Z_> Gotta cruise for a bit... Take care. 10:15 < jrayhawk> it kinda freaks me out that Linux of all things got worseisbettered by Android 10:16 < jrayhawk> maybe that's a sign that linux is a "mature product" 10:19 < kanzure> hey we need a responsive ui to take user input, 10:19 < kanzure> let's use java! 10:23 -!- strages_work [~qwebirc@dev.throwthemind.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:28 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33 -!- Z_ [3a6a1084@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.106.16.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:48 -!- strages_work [~qwebirc@dev.throwthemind.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:50 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:52 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-78-8-217-46.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:53 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:22 < AlonzoTG> om 11:22 < strangewarp> om nom nom 11:30 < AlonzoTG> AGI is cool. 11:33 < uniqanomaly> yep yep yep yep yep yep yep 11:33 < jrayhawk> uh huh uh huh 11:35 < kanzure> aweebawoo aweebawoo 11:36 < Mariu> =) 11:47 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-188-180.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:05 -!- shipwreck__ [~pcm@114.72.195.96] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:08 < AlonzoTG> I am contemplating writing a post on cognitive engineering. 12:08 < AlonzoTG> and try to explain, yet again, how the obsession of uploading has blinded to people to the hundreds of other variables and system organizations possible when the necessity of fitting around a human neural pattern is dropped. 12:16 -!- shipwreck__ [~pcm@114.72.195.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24 < Stee|> bah, uploading 12:24 < Stee|> thesus-shipping, aw yeah 13:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-188-180.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:18 -!- jenzebubble [jen@173-19-241-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:20 -!- jennicide [jen@173-19-241-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:22 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-188-180.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25 < AlonzoTG> =) 13:29 < Stee|> I view destructive uploading as personality death 13:31 < kanzure> no, it's biological death 13:32 < AlonzoTG> death is bad. 13:34 < sylph_mako> +1 it being biological death. How could it be personality death if the personality persists? 13:36 < kanzure> "it's biological death" is sorta indisputable by the concept "destructive uploading" i figure.. 13:38 < sylph_mako> +1 disagreeing with the term personality death[whatever that will turn out to mean] then. 13:41 < kanzure> it means it's time for our lunches 13:48 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:54 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-15-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:04 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:15 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:19 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24 < strangewarp> To think you will not experience your uploaded state, after any kind of destructive upload, is to hold a belief that your present consciousness has soul-like properties, and/or that the uploaded consciousness would not. That is OK. Just don't beat around the bush. 14:24 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24 < kanzure> strangewarp: or that "present consciousness" exists.. that's also a weird one 14:25 < strangewarp> hmmm. 14:28 < sylph_mako> I am not conscious, in fact, I'm a p-zombie. 14:28 < sylph_mako> I just appear to be. 14:30 < strangewarp> Incidentally, the changes in the brain, second-to-second, are already so drastic that it seems identity is based more on memory, than on any continuity of experience. 14:37 < strangewarp> If this throws you into an existential crisis, since you know mentally and peceptually that you are actively experiencing your life, and that you possess your memories, well.. welcome to the club. 14:39 < strangewarp> I've been poking at simulism to try to resolve the concern, but my ideas on the subject are all half-formed and unsatisfying so far. 14:55 < sylph_mako> I don't feel second by second changes in my brain. Although the day by day ones are pretty jarring. 15:04 < AlonzoTG> =\ 15:04 < AlonzoTG> You have it backwards, strange. 15:06 < AlonzoTG> I don't believe that there is some mystical, dualistic, "pattern" that is capable of endowing something else with my consciousness. 15:06 < AlonzoTG> It might be sufficient to produce a consciousness that bares some resemblance to my consciousness. 15:07 < AlonzoTG> But it's not mine, I will not have the privilege of experiencing what it experiences, and I will not be able to enjoy anything that is offered as a benefit of being an upload. 15:07 < sylph_mako> You mean "who". "Who bares some resemblance". 15:07 < AlonzoTG> Whatever. 15:07 < sylph_mako> Hehehe 15:07 < AlonzoTG> doesn't matter/totally unimportant/don't care. 15:08 < AlonzoTG> As a strict monist, I see a living system that is indivisible. To suggest that it is, in fact, separable, is equivalent to claiming that that it has a dualistic nature. 15:09 < AlonzoTG> and therefore anyone who claims that the human mind is separable from its body is a limp-wristed, fuzzy thinking, starry-eyed DUALIST!!! 15:09 < sylph_mako> That's pretty interesting. 15:09 < sylph_mako> related question, AlonzoTG, how much would you value a copy of yourself? If one existed? 15:09 < AlonzoTG> 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 15:11 < sylph_mako> I'm almost prepared to call you out on that assumption and propose that you would love him. Almost. 15:15 < sylph_mako> It would resemble the shoddy mode of self-perpetuation we've employed for our entire mammalian history- make a rough copy of yourself then die- but it would be so much more direct. So much more potent. 15:16 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-78-8-217-46.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Quit: uniqanomaly] 15:17 < strangewarp> [16:06] I don't believe that there is some mystical, dualistic, "pattern" that is capable of endowing something else with my consciousness. 15:17 < strangewarp> You misunderstand what I'm getting at. 15:18 < strangewarp> If you have two identical consciousnesses, then they are literally the same thing. I am entirely unsure how the related experiential aspects would play out, or whether we should even care about them, as they may not be measurable. 15:20 < strangewarp> This opens the door to thinking about resimulation in terms of both extreme futurism and simulism. No dualism required. 15:21 < eudoxia> I'd be careful with the whole identical thing 15:21 < eudoxia> functional equivalence holds to a point but they can only be one and the same if you have a perfect .pdb of the entire brain and a quantum chemistry simulation 15:22 < eudoxia> higher-level simulations loose the detail of the real brain 15:22 < strangewarp> Indeed, I was considering stating that, provisionally, there could be variance in states, but then that opens a can of worms about how flexible a person's identity can be.. 15:22 < eudoxia> frankly I don't care whether or not it's the same 15:22 < eudoxia> it opens the door to radical human enhancement 15:23 < strangewarp> Indeed, agreed, I was just trying to simplify for my point about resimulation 15:23 < kanzure> oh god philosophy 15:23 < eudoxia> of course 15:24 < kanzure> AlonzoTG: claiming consciousness (as you do) is to assert dualism 15:25 < kanzure> a seperable system is not necessarily dualist 15:25 < kanzure> i.e., if you separate energy from your body, you will die 15:29 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-15-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@DSLPool-net208-2.wctc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:37 -!- SDr [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:37 -!- SDr [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:37 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:58 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:03 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-67-172-85.shv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-18-133.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:06 -!- He||eshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:09 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:28 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:38 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-14-179.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:01 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@DSLPool-net208-2.wctc.net] has quit [] 17:14 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:16 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:21 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:28 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:29 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:37 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:38 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:41 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:58 -!- ashadocat [~alex@184.175.58.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-14-179.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:12 < kanzure> "researchers taking a stand against elsevier" http://thecostofknowledge.com/ 18:12 < kanzure> not sure what this actually accomplishes 18:13 < kanzure> why not just delete their servers 18:38 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-14-179.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:42 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@cpe-24-94-5-223.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:43 < delinquentme> so 18:43 < delinquentme> If i want to start at the junction of ML and bioinformatics 18:45 < kanzure> what sorta ml do you want to do? 18:46 < delinquentme> well I'd like a biology related project 18:46 < delinquentme> to begin wrapping my head around ml 18:46 < kanzure> but i mean, you're asking for a random suggestion 18:46 < kanzure> right? 18:47 < eudoxia> a thing that identifies cancerous cells from optical micrographs 18:47 < kanzure> a thing that analyzes the shapes of different polymerases 18:47 < kanzure> for different polymerase properties 18:48 < kanzure> shape classification, even 18:48 < kanzure> feel-good homology phylogenetic tree stuff 18:48 < delinquentme> eudoxia, what are optical micrographs? 18:49 < eudoxia> I dunno, like electron micrographs but from an optical microscope 18:49 < kanzure> doesn't matter, just think "image" 18:49 < eudoxia> I was going to say electron micrograph but then I thought it was overkill so I swapped electron with optical and then I didn't know what to do 18:49 < kanzure> delinquentme: what about edge detection in neural tissue imaging 18:49 < kanzure> i.e. for neural reconstruction 18:49 < kanzure> not quite the typical molecular-type bioinformatics project.. 18:49 < kanzure> again, not sure what you're looking for 18:50 < delinquentme> yeah 18:50 < delinquentme> so complexity needs to be stepped down 18:50 < kanzure> these are easy things, it just sounds complex 18:50 < delinquentme> regardless 18:51 < delinquentme> i want something thats doable in a few hours 18:51 < kanzure> i consider "dna primer design" to be slightly harder ;) 18:51 < kanzure> well, there's always boring work like "fix a bug in DNanonono" 18:51 < kanzure> the dna/origami thing 18:51 < kanzure> or "fix a ticket in bioperl/biopython/bioruby" 18:53 < delinquentme> oh DUH 18:53 < delinquentme> i spaced on the broad software thing 18:53 < kanzure> ? 18:54 < kanzure> you could do some bioinformatics pdf parser thing, that extracts charts/graphs :x 18:54 < delinquentme> emailed ppl @ broad and sent along my stuff and basically asked " what can I contribute to ?" 18:54 < kanzure> or an rss aggregator that sits on top of ncbi's data stream (you know, all the new proteins and shit that get submitted each day) 18:54 < kanzure> what's broad? 18:54 < delinquentme> the broad institute 18:55 < delinquentme> lolol 18:55 < kanzure> what are their suggestinos? 18:55 < kanzure> *suggestions 18:55 < delinquentme> i had to google to make sure that the spelling is the same as the derogatory female term 18:56 < delinquentme> I have forwarded your information to the Gene Pattern group, which seems to best fit your interests. You can check them out here for more information: http://www.broadinstitute.org/cancer/software/genepattern/desc/expression. 18:56 < delinquentme> Other open source projects that have come from the Broad are Haploview (http://www.broadinstitute.org/scientific-community/science/programs/medical-and-population-genetics/haploview/haploview) and CellProfiler (http://www.cellprofiler.org/). However, I am unsure of what projects are under development that meet your interests. It is my hope that the Gene Pattern group will have some input for you. 18:57 < kanzure> how does cell imager distinguish cell/non-cell? shape can be anything, in certain situations 18:58 < kanzure> pymol could use a new gui :/ 19:22 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jmil] 19:25 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:33 < kanzure> if there was just one single polymerase under direct human control, 19:34 < kanzure> it would completely displace all of the current dna synthesis industry 19:34 < kanzure> 10000 bp/second for every second of the day is 864M bp/day.. 19:40 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-78-36.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:41 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 19:41 < JayDugger> (Spent today reading Junji Ito manga while watching the contractor rebuild the bathroom. No nightmares, though.) 19:43 < JayDugger> What's a good use for an Emotiv headset? 19:45 < kanzure> the trashcan 19:45 < eudoxia> haha 19:45 < JayDugger> Not what I wanted to hear, and more valuable for it. 19:45 < JayDugger> Anything else? :) 20:00 < sylph_mako> Junji Ito's horror is what I would call deep horror. It's lovecraftian in its ways. To understand it is to enter madness. 20:00 < JayDugger> Ah, hell...snobbery alert... 20:00 < sylph_mako> It's the kind of stuff lovecraft writes /about/. 20:01 < sylph_mako> Without actually successfully writing. 20:01 < JayDugger> Junji Ito writes EC Horror style tales with way better art and an exotic settings. 20:01 < JayDugger> Lovecraft writes about maltheism and nihilism. People still matter to Ito. 20:01 < JayDugger> And $0.02 for the off-topic jar. 20:02 < JayDugger> On the other hand, at least the reference gets noted here. :) 20:02 < JayDugger> So don't pick up a cheap Emotiv unless I want to throw away money? 20:07 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:09 < delinquentme> kanzure, what are you talking about w the polymerase 20:10 < delinquentme> you're saying you want control over what proteins are expressed within the body? kanzure ? 20:14 < yashgaroth> he's saying that being able to reliably synthesize even a single molecule of DNA in a continuous strand, to order, would outcompete any/all current DNA synthesis processes 20:14 < yashgaroth> probably any conceivable future processes too 20:16 < yashgaroth> although technically pol doesn't generate de novo sequences, the idea is there 20:17 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:22 < kanzure> yashgaroth: there are some pol molecules that do template-free synthesis 20:22 < kanzure> yashgaroth: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ 20:22 < kanzure> me strategizing last year http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/notes2.txt 20:23 < kanzure> tdt pol is interesting 20:23 < kanzure> tth 20:23 < yashgaroth> aside from telomerase? I'll take a look 20:23 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/excellent%20-%20The%20conserved%20active%20site%20motif%20A%20of%20Escherichia%20coli%20DNA%20polymerase%20I%20is%20highly%20mutable.pdf 20:23 < kanzure> who are you and why do you know what i'm talking about 20:24 < kanzure> this is supposed to be incomprehensible jibberish 20:24 < yashgaroth> I'm just some guy, and I seem to be one of the few here with some bio knowledge 20:24 < kanzure> okie dokie 20:25 < yashgaroth> let me scan that article real quick 20:26 < kanzure> iorget if this motif is the one responsible for nucleotide discrimination 20:26 < kanzure> *i forget 20:27 < kanzure> this might have been the incorporation portino 20:27 < kanzure> *portion 20:27 < yashgaroth> it's more about mutating the pol itself while still retaining function, no? 20:28 < kanzure> sort of, there are many strategies i can imagine 20:28 < kanzure> like "try to get four different motifs in there, and use conformational changes to disable/enable certain nucleotide incorporation" 20:28 < kanzure> and then do chromophores or some other light-based conformational change 20:28 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, kanzure so someone mentioned measuring electrical fluctuation ... would this be applicable to monitor which bases are being sequenced? 20:28 < kanzure> this is synthesis, not sequencing-by-synthesis 20:29 < yashgaroth> the work in light-guided chain extension is promising 20:29 < kanzure> i think i might have seen a polymerase on/off switch with light 20:29 < kanzure> can't remember where.. but nothing specific 20:29 < yashgaroth> probably, it'd be fairly easy these days 20:30 < kanzure> state 1: polymerase normal 20:30 < kanzure> state 2: fucked up polymerase 20:30 < yashgaroth> pretty much 20:30 < yashgaroth> but afaik, generating a "new" DNA strand without a template is limited only to telomerase, and that technically has a template 20:30 < kanzure> consider this: 20:31 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/tth/ 20:32 < kanzure> the other problem is that i've seen some mutated polymerases that are biased for purines and others against purines, 20:32 < kanzure> but never discrimination within the groups 20:32 < kanzure> hard to do directed evolution on this problem :/ 20:33 < yashgaroth> sure, it's possible to get a protein that will generate a repeating DNA structure, or even a random one; the problem is specificity 20:34 < delinquentme> TIL chromophores 20:35 < kanzure> badass right? and that's an old technique 20:35 < delinquentme> I dont quite understand the applicaion 20:35 < delinquentme> application 20:35 < delinquentme> kanz how much of these papers do you read 20:36 < kanzure> all of them 20:36 < kanzure> this isn't the dark ages 20:36 < delinquentme> abstract and KW index it 20:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-14-179.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36 < delinquentme> ? 20:36 < kanzure> no 20:36 < delinquentme> you read through the entire papers 20:36 < kanzure> we call that memory 20:36 < kanzure> yes... 20:36 < delinquentme> weird 20:36 * delinquentme jelly 20:36 < kanzure> just start reading 20:36 < kanzure> if you want, we can read together 20:36 < kanzure> for motivation/peer pressure reasons 20:37 < yashgaroth> competitive reading, 2044 olympics 20:37 < delinquentme> lol 20:37 < kanzure> yashgaroth: the main cateogries in my collection are more interesting, 20:37 < delinquentme> i DID have a paper open which i have no idea where it disappeared to 20:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ 20:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ 20:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants 20:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ 20:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ 20:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ 20:38 < yashgaroth> I've browsed some; are you still keeping up with myostatin etc.? 20:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/ 20:38 < kanzure> not recently, no 20:38 < kanzure> i remember some of the "tegment issues" 20:38 < kanzure> tendon issues, sorry 20:39 < kanzure> didn't seem like a showstopper to me 20:39 < yashgaroth> yeah, though that might be due to transgenic-from-birth conditions 20:39 < kanzure> exactly 20:39 < kanzure> i was going to add that caveat, but you've done my work for me 20:39 < kanzure> hooray 20:39 < yashgaroth> it's a pet project of mine 20:39 < kanzure> so, i was thinking of expressing the myostatin inhibitor 20:39 < kanzure> in a hairy root culture 20:40 < yashgaroth> I was much more into plasmid delivery 20:40 < yashgaroth> the "body-as-bioreactor" approach, as it were 20:41 < kanzure> plasmid delivery via the eye perhaps? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Subretinal%20injection%20and%20electroporation%20into%20adult%20mouse%20eyes.pdf 20:41 < kanzure> oh, there was also this 20:41 < yashgaroth> eye? muscle is where it's at 20:41 < kanzure> kidney-targeted naked dna injection 20:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Kidney-targeted%20naked%20DNA%20transfer%20by%20retrograde%20renal%20vein%20injection%20in%20rats.pdf 20:41 < kanzure> ok. direct plasmid delivery to muscle sounds painful 20:42 < yashgaroth> especially with electroporation, which would be the ideal way 20:42 < yashgaroth> also, which inhibitor? because the monoclonal got dumped by wyeth for good reason 20:42 < kanzure> i don't remember, where's my notes 20:43 < kanzure> but also: why not just use anabolic steroids 20:43 < yashgaroth> ironically it's probably easier for me to use gene therapy 20:43 < yashgaroth> but true, steroids are very effective when well-controlled 20:43 < kanzure> can't order roids online for some reason? 20:44 < delinquentme> wth are you guys talking about ? 20:44 < kanzure> transhumanist stuff 20:44 < delinquentme> i see delivery of plasmids 20:44 < yashgaroth> is there anywhere reliable for roids on the net? I imagine it'd be 90% BS 20:44 < delinquentme> and then steroids 20:44 < kanzure> yashgaroth: just hang out on bodybuilding.com and be careful 20:45 < yashgaroth> true, true, but the theoretical upper limit for well-designed myostatin inhibitors is much higher 20:45 < kanzure> i don't recall that at all 20:45 < kanzure> but i also don't recall the contrary 20:45 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [] 20:46 < yashgaroth> conservatively +50%, anywhere up to +300% but that's mostly from-birth 20:46 < yashgaroth> with systemic delivery and no suppression 20:46 < kanzure> +50% by mass? 20:46 < yashgaroth> probably, it's hard to get mice to benchpress, especially since most of the models already have a muscle disorder 20:47 < kanzure> delinquentme: ask very specific questions if you want good answers.. :/ 20:47 < yashgaroth> anyway, I think it's worth a shot regardless 20:47 < yashgaroth> worst that happens, systemic immune response to muscle tissue 20:48 < yashgaroth> :D 20:48 < kanzure> meh who needs an immune system 20:48 < kanzure> ... or myocytes 20:48 < yashgaroth> I hate the immune system as much as the next guy 20:49 < kanzure> so, i don't know how obvious it is, but synthesis is tremendously more important to me than sequencing 20:49 < kanzure> sequencing is a done deal, there's a race to the bottom and i'm sure we'll get to $1/genome or some other nonsense 20:49 < kanzure> but not any next-gen synthesis companies 20:50 < kanzure> which is ridiculous, considering the huge synthetic biology buzz. the whole point of synthetic is synthesis... 20:50 < yashgaroth> ehh, cutting and pasting will only get you so far, but it's still fairly far 20:50 < kanzure> yeah, a new dna synthesis venture would have to start with oligo libraries 20:51 < kanzure> maybe a microfluidic sythesis+sequencing (for verification) setup 20:51 < delinquentme> kanzure, so you want a hella effective way to build the dna 20:51 < kanzure> delinquentme: nothing on the market beats my polymerases in my body 20:51 < delinquentme> hows it done now 20:51 < kanzure> phosphoramidite chemistry 20:51 < kanzure> and other ways 20:52 < kanzure> like oligo library ligation 20:52 < delinquentme> but like 20:52 < kanzure> papers: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ 20:52 < yashgaroth> I don't know if it's really a DIY thing, nice as it would be; feds would get mighty suspicious 20:52 < delinquentme> arent polymerases performing synthesis by sequencing? 20:52 < kanzure> heres the steps, delinquentme 20:52 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/synthesis.txt 20:52 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i have a good relationship with my fbi agent 20:53 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i would not worry about them 20:53 < yashgaroth> even with the ability to synthesize the gene for botulinum toxin and all that shit? 20:53 < kanzure> not sure :) 20:54 < yashgaroth> haha, I avoided bringing it up with my FBI agent 20:54 < yashgaroth> i.e. the one who started sitting in on DIYbio Seattle meetings 20:54 < kanzure> ed? 20:54 < kanzure> "agent you" 20:54 < yashgaroth> possibly, he was asian 20:54 < kanzure> yeah that was him 20:55 < yashgaroth> seemed alright, but I'd moved to SD before I got a chance to really chat with him or anything 20:55 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20080708235522/http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/images/hrtppe.jpg 20:55 < delinquentme> kanzure, this reminds me of a thing i just saw on tech review about using light / low electricity to valve around liquids @ micro levels 20:56 < kanzure> yashgaroth: so you know elizabeth and um.. 20:56 < delinquentme> so whats needed to make blood 20:56 < yashgaroth> alec, and the rest 20:56 < kanzure> alessandro.. hrm.. 20:56 < kanzure> nile 20:56 < kanzure> ron 20:56 < delinquentme> if we're working the stemcell path its cytokines 20:56 < yashgaroth> a surprising number of H+ people in that club 20:57 < yashgaroth> I'm none of them, but you and I are friends on FB if you're up for a hunt 20:57 < kanzure> yashgaroth: the h+ crowd is surprisingly underskille 20:57 < kanzure> *underskilled 20:57 < yashgaroth> especially in biotech, which is why I was very happy to make the discovery 20:58 < kanzure> like, pathetically underskilled 20:58 < kanzure> singularityu isn't helping either 20:58 < yashgaroth> haha that fucking place 20:58 < kanzure> i grabbed all of their student's emails once 20:58 < kanzure> they don't know shit about security 20:59 < yashgaroth> doesn't surprise 20:59 < delinquentme> kanzure, any suggestions on DIYbioing broken ear lobes from gauged ears? 20:59 < kanzure> are you kris ganjam? 20:59 < yashgaroth> nope, oh screw it I'll just send you a message on there real quick 21:00 < kanzure> wow impressive, you only show up twice in my "stalk everyone" database 21:01 < yashgaroth> I try not to delve into FB too much 21:02 < yashgaroth> I will say, alec nielsen is an awesome dude, I expect great things from him; otherwise, good DIYH+bio people are exceedingly hard to find 21:02 < kanzure> so why'd you show up here only now? 21:02 < kanzure> this is sort of the biohacker/transhumanist/hardware hacking nexus 21:03 < yashgaroth> ehh, I'd perused logs occasionally, but you gotta admit this place is 90% coding 21:03 < yashgaroth> 5% other shit, 5% bio 21:03 < kanzure> what can i say, software is easy to talk about 21:04 < kanzure> feel free to change the ratios.. 21:04 < yashgaroth> I'd be making a lot more money if I'd gone into coding, but I already spend my free time at the computer 21:05 < yashgaroth> I do hope to direct the discussion a little more toward bio when I can 21:05 < kanzure> just be militant about it and it will happen 21:05 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, i think thats the application we're after here 21:06 < kanzure> yashgaroth: pm 21:06 < yashgaroth> ! 21:07 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:09 < delinquentme> oke toodles! 21:13 < kanzure> seeya? 21:13 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17 -!- nmz787 [43f2b117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.242.177.23] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:17 < nmz787> hi 21:17 < kanzure> hi nmz787 21:17 < kanzure> yashgaroth: let's not do pm now :P 21:17 < nmz787> i am a biotechnology student 4 yrs into my B.S. 21:17 < kanzure> nmz787 had some thoughts about dna synthesis 21:18 < kanzure> um, nate i think your other stuff is much more telling than that 21:18 < yashgaroth> oh? 21:18 -!- srangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:18 < nmz787> at best you would address the polymerase with 3 regulators 21:19 < nmz787> 2 for the active site could combine to 4 states 21:20 < nmz787> and 1 to control addition of a nucleotide... probably something that in the relaxed state, the active site was blocked/mis-aligned... and in the activated state (pulse of some chemical, light would be cool too, electrically induced ph change) it would add a nucleotide before dropping back to being inactive 21:20 < yashgaroth> well, you'd be basically mimicking phosphoramidite synthesis, right? addition of a single base, blocking, unblocking, and repeat 21:20 < nmz787> no 21:21 < nmz787> polymerase uses the cleavage of pyrophosphate to push the polymerization reaction forward 21:21 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:21 -!- srangewarp is now known as strangewarp 21:21 < nmz787> you could probably then move on to adding sulfurylase and luciferase to the mix, to get a reply signal that you had a nucleotide added 21:22 < nmz787> that might have licensing issues, not sure 21:22 < kanzure> don't worry about licensing bs 21:22 < yashgaroth> who cares about licensing 21:22 < nmz787> hah 21:22 < nmz787> yeah 21:23 < nmz787> just sayin 21:23 < nmz787> the binding pocket is sort of controlled by the DNA template strand 21:23 < kanzure> so, i'm not sure anyone has ever mechanically stopped a polymerase in its tracts 21:23 < kanzure> i've seen some "mechanical strain applied to polymerase changes its kinetics/rate" 21:23 < kanzure> but nothing specific like "stop/start with one base pair resolution" 21:23 < kanzure> an advisor of mine once suggested using a betaclamp in front of the polymerase 21:24 < kanzure> DIAGRAM http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/2008-06-06_beta_clamp.png 21:24 < nmz787> so maybe you eliminate the binding pocket, and the conformational change rotates an axle with a different nucleotide on 4 arms 21:24 < nmz787> yeah, well polymerase is a motor 21:25 < nmz787> so you'd probably have to break that 21:25 < nmz787> or modify it 21:25 < kanzure> too many variables 21:25 < yashgaroth> you guys talk about that like it'd be anywhere near trivial 21:26 < kanzure> nmz787: so, dosn't pol move at 10kbp/sec 21:26 < kanzure> you'd need a fast feedback cycle to control this 21:26 < kanzure> i dunno what the conformational changes tend to be.. 10-200 ns i hope? 21:26 < nmz787> what I'm saying is that you'd break the motor activity 21:27 < kanzure> how do you move the dna down "exactly one bp" ? 21:27 < nmz787> or interrupt it, regulate it... I don't know how it works/looks 21:27 < yashgaroth> you're still relying on pol to do a completely novel activity 21:28 < nmz787> none of it is novel 21:28 < nmz787> i am explaining, wait a sec 21:29 < nmz787> it happens naturally, a nucleotide is attracted to the template strand via the complementary hydrogen bond pattern, when it arrives the pyrophosphate (two phosphate groups linked) is cleaved from the triphosphate... this releases a lot of free energy... and the molecule takes advantage of it by changing conformations which move it down the DNA template... and the cycle repeats 21:30 < kanzure> no, there's a discriminatory motif in polymerase that selects a nucleotide to incorporate 21:31 < kanzure> "selects" more like.. uh. discriminates. 21:31 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31 < kanzure> it's true that complimentarity plays a part however 21:31 < nmz787> there likely is to some degree, but its probably not too much 21:31 < nmz787> the polymerase mostly sees the phosphate backbone 21:33 < yashgaroth> if you can reliably trick the pol into adding the nucleotide you want, then sure it'd work 21:34 < nmz787> this video says that polymerase tests the nucleotide 21:34 < nmz787> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC2mYWR8754 21:34 < yashgaroth> free bases float into the pocket until one binds well enough that pol accepts it and moves on 21:35 < kanzure> this contradicts what i remember reading o.o 21:35 < nmz787> in that part of the video you can see the opposite side of the DNA template binding pocket 21:35 < yashgaroth> same as protein translation, all the tRNAs bump into that pocket until the ribosome likes one well enough 21:36 < yashgaroth> usually because it stays around long enough from complementary binding 21:36 < nmz787> you might be able to replace the binding pocket with 4 nucleotides that were separate, but moved into the active site in a regulated fashion 21:37 < yashgaroth> also, that video says 500bp/sec, which is more in line with what I've heard, at least for bacteria 21:38 < yashgaroth> I still say you'd be better off mimicking phosphoramidite synthesis, just using several different proteins combined in order 21:39 < nmz787> how do you react then separate the proteins for reuse though? 21:40 < kanzure> this is useful for t7 dna pol http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/The%20molecular%20basis%20of%20nucleotide%20recognition%20for%20T7%20DNA%20polymerase%20-%202008.pdf 21:41 < yashgaroth> well, you have four that attach to a working strand and add one of the bases, which would probably need a 3' modification to prevent >1 base being added 21:41 < yashgaroth> clear that out, another comes in the cleave the 3' blocker 21:42 < yashgaroth> clear and repeat with the next base 21:43 < nmz787> but you said using multiple proteins in series 21:43 < yashgaroth> indeed 21:43 < nmz787> you need to recycle them, and make sure there isnt cross-contamination... otherwise you're spending a lot on proteins because you're dumping them to waste 21:44 < yashgaroth> make each one responsive to a different wavelength/condition then 21:45 < nmz787> that's relying on complex infrastructure, protein sorters that are tuned to each protein's weight, etc 21:45 < nmz787> maybe 21:45 < yashgaroth> they'd all exist in solution together 21:45 < kanzure> ok that's right, 21:45 < kanzure> i'm remembering something else 21:45 < kanzure> called a "protein template" 21:45 < kanzure> like in CCA-adding polymerases 21:45 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/Structural%20basis%20for%20template-independent%20RNA%20polymerization%20-%20Tomita%20-%20Fukal%20-%20Ishitani%20-%20Ueda%20-%20Takeuchi%20-%20Vassylyev%20-%20Nureki.pdf 21:46 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@24-196-36-61.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:46 < yashgaroth> also proteins are fairly cheap if you make them yourself, and we'd be using nanograms; you only need a few good strands to amplify with PCR 21:47 < kanzure> yeh there's tons of nanoliter PCR stuff out there 21:48 < kanzure> look at the "protein template" thing 21:48 < yashgaroth> the main problem is talking about designing completely novel proteins, or heavily modifying pol and several associated cofactors 21:48 < kanzure> there's also antoher paper on a "protein template" here: 21:48 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/Rev1%20employs%20a%20novel%20mechanism%20of%20DNA%20synthesis%20using%20a%20protein%20template%20-%20Nair%20-%20Johnson%20-%20Prakash%20-%20Aggarwal.pdf 21:49 < kanzure> yeah, 21:49 < yashgaroth> kk I'll take a look 21:49 < kanzure> making a single modification to pol and checking it is a pain 21:49 < kanzure> and then expecting multiple modifications to work is also a chore 21:50 < kanzure> "the polymerase itself dictates the identity of the incoming nucleotide, as well as the identity of the templating base" 21:50 < kanzure> gee, i'm glad i'm not crazy 21:50 < yashgaroth> protein simulation has come a long way, but even folding them yourself on a supercomputer with some hyper-modded form of fold.it, it's still mind-boggling 21:51 < yashgaroth> speaking of which that's always a good software project, fold.it modding 21:54 < Stee|> ugh 21:54 < Stee|> two DIY things I'd love to figure out 21:54 < Stee|> is resin, and extrudable plastic 21:54 < Stee|> I suspect the second is easier than the first, but would need to figure out a DIY cracker first 21:57 < yashgaroth> don't suppose you're talking about chromatography resin? 21:58 < Stee|> no 21:58 < yashgaroth> damn 21:58 < Stee|> sorry, talking about stereolithography 21:58 < nmz787> problem with phosphoramidite chemistry is that it sucks for long stuff 21:59 < nmz787> polymerase already has error-correction 21:59 < nmz787> if you could control the templating, you'd be pretty good to go I think 22:00 < yashgaroth> totally, but it can't correct errors on something unless it's correcting from the strand being copied 22:00 < nmz787> right 22:01 < yashgaroth> which you don't have since you're basically writing a single strand, no? 22:02 < nmz787> i was proposing the modified polymerase which could control what the template looked like at the active site only 22:02 < nmz787> i can draw a picture of it I think 22:03 < yashgaroth> oh, well in that case it would work, yes 22:03 -!- Technicus [~Technicus@24-196-36-61.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 22:04 < nmz787> well anyway 22:04 < kanzure> diagrams are good 22:04 < nmz787> i was alternatively thinking of using something like sequential overlap extension PCR 22:05 < nmz787> where you'd have an oligo attached to a magnetic bead, held in place just before a silicon sieve that lets oligos through, but not the polymerase 22:07 < nmz787> because oligos are maybe 6-10 angstroms, but polymerase is easily 50 x 100 angstoms 22:08 < nmz787> there'd be a small resistive heater patterned on the silicon, and you'd basically do 1 cycle of PCR with the free-floating oligo as a template strand 22:08 < nmz787> melt, rinse, bring in next "template" oligo from a library of 5 or 6-mer oligos 22:09 < nmz787> magnet--restrictionSiteaa 22:09 < nmz787> ttac 22:09 < nmz787> blah 22:10 < yashgaroth> that's basically what commercial synthesis does these days 22:10 < nmz787> ascii art won't work here 22:10 < yashgaroth> and with hundreds of possible oligos 22:10 < nmz787> yeah, not too bad 22:11 < yashgaroth> there's nothing super-terrible about current tech, I mean jcraig can generate a whole genome, it just takes a lot of resources 22:11 < nmz787> lots of $ 22:11 < nmz787> pretty terrible 22:11 < yashgaroth> yes, but we won't be needing genome-sized fragments any time soon 22:12 < kanzure> *cough* 22:12 < nmz787> yeah 22:12 < kanzure> that's a lousy reason to suck 22:12 < yashgaroth> fair enough 22:12 < nmz787> do you know what kind things kanzure compiles from source? 22:13 < yashgaroth> less is more fellas 22:13 < kanzure> that's what people who don't have more say 22:13 < yashgaroth> sure, if you want codon-optimized genes you'd need to synthesize them and it would suck 22:13 < nmz787> cloning is kind of a PITA 22:13 < nmz787> it works, well 22:14 < nmz787> but its a lot of work 22:14 < nmz787> its a lot easier to sit in front of a computer for me, than it is to sit in a lab 22:14 -!- Omega [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:15 < yashgaroth> cloning's still an art, sadly 22:15 < nmz787> synthesis is much more to-the-point 22:16 < yashgaroth> but with that overlap extension in its traditional form, you can have basically any combination of existant sequences 22:16 < nmz787> right 22:16 < yashgaroth> and very few long, new, and useful sequences have been found, though that's mostly because synthesis is expensive 22:17 < nmz787> but now the overlap stuff comes from long synthesized oligos 22:17 < nmz787> i'm saying use shorter pieces from a library, and don't synthesize 22:17 < nmz787> you could probably work out a system for brewing more library oligos using PCR or cell culture 22:18 < yashgaroth> how you gonna separate each oligo from a library without having them synthesized separately? 22:18 < nmz787> have them synthesized separately the first time 22:18 < kanzure> keep them separated 22:19 < yashgaroth> then you're losing the advantage over traditional synthesis 22:19 < nmz787> how? 22:19 -!- klafka [~textual@c-71-204-150-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:19 < nmz787> i'd say losing a disadvantage 22:19 < yashgaroth> you're still combining oligos, just shorter ones 22:19 < nmz787> yeah but using them as a template in PCR 22:19 < kanzure> right now, oligo libraries are the more cost effective option 22:19 < nmz787> if they were 3' modified to be terminators, you could probably recycle them 22:20 -!- Omega [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:20 -!- Omega [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:20 < nmz787> with the 3' terminator modification, the template library oligos wouldn't extend (they'd stay 6-mer) 22:20 < kanzure> http://openwetware.org/wiki/Endy:Double_stranding_oligo_libraries 22:21 < kanzure> hrmm where's my oligo library service provider 22:21 < kanzure> this is alme 22:21 < kanzure> *lame 22:21 < nmz787> or 22:21 < yashgaroth> you'll still have a small error rate, and it'd be harder to correct, I'd think 22:22 < yashgaroth> with overlapping 100mers you can pre-sort them to make sure they're the right length 22:22 < nmz787> at 6-mer library, that's 4^6==4096, 4096*6 nucleotides *$0.3/bp for primers 22:22 < klafka> hey 22:22 < nmz787> ==$7372.8 22:22 < klafka> hmm are you guys talking about dna-write 22:22 < nmz787> last time i bought primers I paid $0.15/bp 22:22 < nmz787> so thats an overestimate 22:23 < nmz787> you only need to synthesize 1 strand, then you can PCR the entire thing to amplify it at the dn 22:23 < nmz787> end 22:23 -!- Guest45351 [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:23 -!- Guest45351 [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:23 < yashgaroth> once you have a single strand it's easy, sure 22:24 < nmz787> but for redundancy you could still plan to have 10,000 starting strands attached to magnetic beads, and still have tons of oligo library 6-mers for a long time 22:24 < yashgaroth> the cost of the oligos won't be the majority of the expense on something like that though 22:25 < yashgaroth> I mean, if you had development money I'm sure it would work fine, but that's a bit beyond DIY 22:25 < kanzure> that's usually $0.30 or $0.15/bp from synthesis services, 22:25 < kanzure> the actual cost per bp in material costs is like... zilch 22:26 < yashgaroth> and you can always make the whole process smaller anyway 22:26 < nmz787> smallest order of primers is 0.025 micromoles 22:26 * AlonzoTG is now about 20 pgs into Accelerando. 22:26 < nmz787> (6.023*10^23/1000000)*0.025 = 1.5*10^16 oligos per order 22:27 < yashgaroth> but if we're talking about using current commercial gene synthesis, versus designing a whole new system like this, it won't become cheaper for some time 22:27 < AlonzoTG> I don't like the way the book is headed already but I'll try to stick with it, at least until I come across something I just can't stomach. 22:27 < nmz787> if you need to flush in 100,000 oligos at a time, to attempt to hybridize 10,000 growing strands 22:27 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:27 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:27 < AlonzoTG> I don't have any genes to synthesize at the moment. =~( 22:28 < nmz787> you have 150 billion reaction steps 22:29 < nmz787> even if you only extended by 1 bp per PCR cycle, that's a lot of directed DNA synthesis 22:30 < nmz787> problem would be synthesizing repeats 22:30 < nmz787> so back to needing an addressable polymerase 22:30 < nmz787> i think its only a matter of time before that is reality 22:31 < yashgaroth> yes, but it's a bit beyond our means at the moment 22:31 < kanzure> i don't think universities are going to do it 22:31 < yashgaroth> pfft, there's plenty of money to be made, big biotech is already doing plenty of research into it 22:31 < klafka> kanzure you don't think universities don't want to revolutionize dna-write? 22:32 < kanzure> it's not like "oh let's casually take control of dna polymerase" is fundamental/basic research 22:32 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:32 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:32 < nmz787> it seems like a lot of companies are content with the level of production and cost 22:32 < nmz787> both in biotech reagents and medicinals 22:33 < yashgaroth> it is fundamental-level research, compared to most of the field 22:33 < yashgaroth> and yes if you've got 100mil to spend developing a drug, a few grand for gene synthesis is nothing 22:33 < klafka> kanzure actually i'd say that is fundamental research 22:33 < klafka> like absolutely 22:33 < nmz787> if it does come at the professional level, I bet it would still be significantly marked up in cost (though cheaper than current prices) 22:34 < nmz787> *suppliers are satisfied with the costs* 22:34 < nmz787> not buyers, they always want cheaper 22:36 < yashgaroth> all the current oligo providers are just making the exact same process cheaper than each other, there's only so far it can go 22:36 < klafka> yeah 22:36 < yashgaroth> it's one of the few places in biotech without an obscene markup 22:36 < klafka> there needs to be a fundamental advance in research 22:36 < klafka> it's probably going to come from physics 22:36 < klafka> or material science 22:36 < klafka> and some guy is gonna be like 'wtf we can use this for synthing dna' 22:36 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i'm not convinced they are making it cheaper than each other 22:36 < Stee|> it's really lucky 95% of my research has been theory only 22:37 < Stee|> and only 5% validation 22:37 < Stee|> thank god 22:37 < Stee|> otherwise I'd be stuck here even longer 22:37 < klafka> hahahaha 22:37 < klafka> yes 22:37 * klafka escaped academia 22:37 < Stee|> job interview wednesday 22:37 < yashgaroth> costs for oligo synthesis are decreasing using the same old method, though there's likely some price-fixing there 22:37 < Stee|> we'll see how that goes 22:38 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:38 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:39 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:39 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:40 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:40 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:41 < nmz787> well i'm off, back to studying 22:41 < nmz787> bye 22:41 < kanzure> seeya 22:41 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:41 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:42 < yashgaroth> I do agree with klafka that we're waiting for physics, to help solve the protein folding problem 22:42 < yashgaroth> either for that modified polymerase or a protein version of phosphoramidite base-by-base extension 22:42 < klafka> i mean these advances are _clearly_ going to either chem directly from physics or from materials/nanoscience 22:42 < kanzure> the protein folding problem is irrelevant 22:42 < yashgaroth> to rational protein design? 22:43 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:43 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:43 < kanzure> rational? we just need it to work :p 22:44 < yashgaroth> ha 22:44 < yashgaroth> there's only one human-designed enzyme, and that came from simulated folding 22:45 < yashgaroth> ...and thousands of experiments, but mostly in silico folding 22:46 < nmz787> which enzyme? 22:46 < nmz787> refs? 22:46 < yashgaroth> http://depts.washington.edu/bakerpg/drupal/system/files/jiang08A.pdf 22:47 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:47 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:48 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:48 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:51 < yashgaroth> sure, it's a useless reaction with a slow catalytic rate, but still awesome 22:52 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:52 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:54 < yashgaroth> oh wait they've done a couple other similar things with that backbone, but yes generally it's from computer-aided design 22:54 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:54 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:55 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:55 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:56 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:56 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:56 < kanzure> Omega-: can you die please 22:56 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ 22:56 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:56 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:56 < nmz787> yeah i remember reading that or a similar one 22:58 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:58 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:59 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:59 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:00 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:00 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:01 < yashgaroth> anyway, I should have started with a disclaimer that novel gene synthesis techniques aren't exactly my realm of expertise, though they're always interesting 23:04 < nmz787> not mine either, but i've been interested in it throughout school so far 23:04 < AlonzoTG> I'm about a million miles away from making productive use of such a technology. =\ 23:05 < yashgaroth> don't worry, we got it covered 23:05 <@kanzure> actually i think we don't but should work on it 23:05 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-18-133.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:05 < yashgaroth> same thing really 23:08 < nmz787> cheap DNA synthesis @ home will be useful, very quickly 23:09 < nmz787> if someone can do that, it wouldn't be much to lay on top a microfluidic e. coli or yeast transformation system 23:09 < nmz787> so it literally would be an auxiliary DNA programmer for those organisms 23:10 <@kanzure> or anything else really 23:11 < nmz787> using that you could even start to do genetic knockouts, so you can start to remodel your strains aside from auxiliary DNA (plasmids) 23:12 < nmz787> then we'd need to worry about downloading DNA and SOPA 23:12 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:12 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:13 < yashgaroth> SOPA's already in practice if not law 23:13 < nmz787> i thought it got dropped 23:14 < yashgaroth> and the day after, the entire public filesharing architecture started to crumble, except torrents 23:14 < yashgaroth> they can just stretch other laws to cover it 23:14 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:14 -!- Omega- [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:15 < yashgaroth> most of the restrictions related to DNA come from bioterror alarmism anyway 23:17 < yashgaroth> patent infringement doesn't really become a concern until you try to commercialize 23:17 <@kanzure> that's only if you commercialize in the u.s. 23:17 <@kanzure> or a state that respects patent laws 23:18 < yashgaroth> good luck selling it in a place like that before someone else does the exact same thing to you 23:18 <@kanzure> alright 23:18 <@kanzure> sounds good to me? 23:19 < yashgaroth> ...yeah, me too 23:23 -!- Guest31433 [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:23 -!- Guest31433 [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:24 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:25 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:25 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:26 -!- nmz787 [43f2b117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.242.177.23] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:33 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:33 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:33 < yashgaroth> aight I'm out for the night, will check back in tomorrow 23:33 -!- yashgaroth [~yashgarot@cpe-24-94-5-223.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:40 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:40 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:41 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:41 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:42 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:42 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:44 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:44 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:46 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:46 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:47 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:47 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:53 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:53 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:55 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jmil] 23:57 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:57 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:59 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:59 -!- |Omega| [~Omega@started.the.rvlution.net] has quit [Excess Flood] --- Log closed Tue Jan 24 00:00:29 2012