--- Log opened Wed Mar 14 00:00:50 2012
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00:10 < strangewarp> Hmm. I think citicoline works much better on me than aniracetam.
00:11 < strangewarp> Will switch back to citicoline, in pill form instead of those unwieldy drinks, after a while.
00:23 < Stee|> strangewarp: once I have money again, I'm putting together a flavonoid super dose drink to test
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00:28 < strangewarp> oh nice.
00:29 < strangewarp> Aniracetam improves my mood, and makes me more thoughtful, but only citicoline gives me unwavering massive motivation...
00:35 < Stee|> have you tried oxiracetam?
00:35 < strangewarp> Traditionally I've had fucking nasty problems with depression and laziness, so the difference was marked. Definitely felt like I'd reclaimed the state I was in back when I was a child prodigy.
00:35 < strangewarp> Haven't tried oxiracetam; will probably give it a shot once I'm making money..
00:41 < klafka1> strangewarp
00:41 < klafka1> hmm i want to try citicoline
00:41 < klafka1> i have massive motivation problems at times
00:51 < strangewarp> It may be a personal-reaction, YMMV kind of thing
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01:34 < Stee|> Sigh
01:35 < Stee|> Thiel, couldn't you have thrown that 500k at something more useful than seasteading
01:35 < strangewarp> Nope seasteading is the big dream of people who like their futurism made out of present-day technology and shaped into hundred-year plans
01:35 < strangewarp> Same thing with like.. human space exploration
01:36 < Stee|> Oh, I'm fond of human space exploration too, but mostly as a resource base
01:36 < Stee|> to crash metal prices
01:36 < strangewarp> Indeed
01:36 < strangewarp> There's gold in that thar moon
01:36 < strangewarp> (literally)
01:36 < Stee|> fuck gold, get neodynium/lithium/gallium
01:36 < strangewarp> mmmmmm
01:37 < kanzure> strangewarp: "child prodigy" sounds like a wonderful way to make sure your kid grows up depressed
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01:37 < strangewarp> oh definitely, absolutely
01:37 < Stee|> it's about 70/30 from what I've seen
01:38 < kanzure> the moon is not 70% or 30% gold
01:38  * kanzure sleeps
01:38 < Stee|> I meant whether or not 'child geniuses' turn out depressed or not
01:38 < strangewarp> Short answer: I was in an emotionally abusive household and forced through advanced and college programs when I should have been living somewhere else and seeing a therapist
01:38 < kanzure> have you tried beating them Stee|? that might increase it
01:38 < Stee|> hah :P
01:39 < Stee|> I was one of the lucky ones, but I also didn't have any particular thing I was a prodigy at
01:39 < Stee|> good at music and english, didn't get a shit about either of them
01:39 < strangewarp> I'm pretty much ok now though, aside from mood and sleep problems, and it seems I can control the mood problems with nootropics
01:40 < strangewarp> Citicoline was even dampening my sleep problems too; and that was at minimum dose
01:41 < strangewarp> 500mg of citicoline might be extremely useful for me, if spendy - I'll see whether I can do enough music gigs to afford the monthly pills
01:42 < strangewarp> Music and English are great, hm
01:43 < Stee|> yeah, but not really my thing
01:44 < strangewarp> I get weird mental pleasure from music - not erotic - and so I've decided to make the kind of music that I would like to hear, but which doesn't exist yet :p
02:10 < strangewarp> Woooooaaah.
02:11 < strangewarp> 5 months' worth of citicoline is on Amazon for $38. Damn. Okay, that is motivating me to work :P
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02:38 < strangewarp> oh right
02:38 < strangewarp> klafka1: Forgot to bring this up, but, like the racetams, you need to take choline citrate for your body to absorb citicoline
02:40 < lichen> ive heard cdp-choline or centrophenoxine are better sources of choline
02:41 < lichen> cross the blood-brain barrier more easily
02:41 < lichen> worth looking into if youre buying choline
02:41 < strangewarp> indeed, I'll probably look into that the next time I need choline
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02:54 < Vicarious> 'morning
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04:49 < strangewarp> Hmmm
04:50 < strangewarp> Apparently, alpha-GPC is the form of choline that makes Nawgan's delivery of citicoline so effective
04:50 < strangewarp> Looks like my next purchase will be citicoline and alpha-GPC..
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05:42 < strangewarp> Wurgh. This slump suspiciously coincides with my switching to a different nootropic. How extremely suspicious.
05:42 < kanzure> correlation is not causation and such
05:43 < strangewarp> Inverse correlation implies negative causation; correlation implies but does not prove causation and more information is required
05:46  * strangewarp afks for sleep
06:04 < kanzure> pft at-keyboard sleep is perfectly valid sleep
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07:16 < kanzure> heee yes http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience
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07:17 < indigenous> Is that a. . a circlejerk for science ?
07:18 < kanzure> it's where all the important questions are going from now on
07:20 < indigenous> Some lol worthy question titles there
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07:25 < indigenous> Just got an email: Humanity+ Nomination​s Open for Board of Directors.
07:25  * indigenous nominates kanzure
07:26 < kanzure> oh noes not this again
07:26 < indigenous> I really have to stop signing up to newsletters
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08:33 < kanzure> where did toykeeper go
08:33 < Mariu> hmm
08:33 < Mariu> hey kanzure
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08:36 < kanzure> ok.
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09:25 < kanzure> javascript insanity: [].forEach exists but {}.forEach does not
09:25 < vrs> kanzure: [].forEach.call({}, f)
09:26 < vrs> also forEach is a method of the array prototype, of course Object.prototype doesn't have it
09:27 < vrs> it must be said that when you [].forEach.call({}, f), only numeric keys get iterated over and only those that are smaller than the length property of the object
09:28 < kanzure> i have a situation where i originally wrote some code assuming an object should be an array
09:28 < kanzure> but it turns out that i need relatively constant indexices
09:28 < kanzure> i process this object with .forEach in a bunch of places
09:28 < kanzure> i think i should just add obj.prototype.forEach for just that
09:28 < kanzure> ?
09:29 < kanzure> *indices
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09:32 < vrs> >add obj.prototype.forEach
09:32 < vrs> hell no
09:32 < kanzure> why not?
09:32 < vrs> or wait, are you writing es5? or for browsers?
09:32 < vrs> aka, node or browsers?
09:32 < kanzure> i'm writing for phantomjs
09:33 < kanzure> it's a headless webkit thing
09:33 < kanzure> so.. browsers.
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09:33 < kanzure> i mean just myobj, not Object :)
09:33 < vrs> then stay away from object.prototype
09:33 < vrs> ah
09:33 < vrs> yeah, do that
09:33 < kanzure> i don't see much damage with modifying this particular .forEach
09:34 < kanzure> esp. since it doesn't exist
09:34 < vrs> yeah it's ok, the only prototype you really should stay away from is Object
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09:35 < kanzure> vrs: why is there no .keys? firefox/chrome are both kind enough to provide a top-level keys() method
09:35 < vrs> nonstandard I guess
09:35 < kanzure> is there some other way to investigate an object?
09:36 < vrs> investigate how?
09:36 < vrs> you can always look at it in the debugger of your choice
09:36 < kanzure> how does JSON.stringify() figure out what keys your object has
09:36 < vrs> for .. in
09:36 < kanzure> yes but what mechanism does that use
09:36 < vrs> built in
09:36 < kanzure> fuck
09:37 < vrs> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/for...in
09:37 < kanzure> i like hasOwnProperty
09:37 < vrs> every browser has that
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09:44 < Coornail> you can look at objects like hashtables or arrays, and you can walk trough their elements
09:44 < Coornail> like [1, 2, 3] is valid, [1, 2, function() {vaaaa();}] is valid as well
09:44 < Coornail> an object is just a bunch of functions
09:44 < kanzure> yep..
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10:48 < kanzure> "There used to be a scam in England where people would use solvents to wash away the postmark from posted letters, allowing them to sell / re-use the stamps."
10:48 < kanzure> "I used to work in a integrated circuit debugging lab. We had a pulse laser that we would use to ablate the layer of glass on top of the metallization so we could probe the die. While goofing around I discovered that I could vaporize the ink of dollar bills. The largest area per pulse was pretty small, 25 microns if I remember right. Maybe 100. So it wasn't very practical, but it worked."
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11:29 < kanzure> http://tequals0.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/gfp-project-week-2-extractifying-gfp/
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12:02 < kanzure> "000233 - University of Pennsylvania, Lab of Chris Chen, Bioengineering (Jordan Miller)"
12:02 < kanzure> http://wiki.makerbot.com/lineage
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12:35 < kanzure> ok.. so in conclusion: people used to buy $200/disc anime without watching it,
12:35 < kanzure> and people would buy $2000 encyclopedia sets that they made monthly payments on
12:35 < kanzure> what the hell?
12:35 < kanzure> also: http://tauday.com/tau-manifesto
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12:47  * Mokbortolan_ writes the "father" of Hobbie-J to ask for a breeding pair of NR2B-over-expressed rats.
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13:02 < jrayhawk> well, the encyclopedias were an investment in your child's future
13:02 < kanzure> library card?
13:02 < jrayhawk> that's a bit of a barrier to looking stuff up
13:02 < kanzure> and shouldn't the school be doing that anyway?
13:03 < kanzure> hrmm
13:05 < jrayhawk> obviously they were a rather dumb investment after the introduction of encarta and pals
13:07 < indigenous> You can pick these sets up very cheaply now in charity shops. Some door to door book sellers like 'the book people' made most of their money of these. In preinternet days it was good for kids to have easy access to information/read and be curious
13:07 < indigenous> and precomputer in every household days
13:08 < indigenous> I had a bunch of single encylopedias when I was a kid
13:08 < kanzure> living in a library sounds better to me
13:08 < jrayhawk> this is a good plan
13:08 < kanzure> i don't see how to make information consumption reliably work otherwise.. without significant planning/delays
13:09 < indigenous> I purchased a rather large websters universal dictionary recently. From around 1940. Most smalll towns severly lack decent library facilities
13:09 < kanzure> yes that's another part of my genius plan (don't live in a small town in the 40s)
13:10 < indigenous> In my local library there are 6 bookcases for art, 6 for music and only 3 for all of science. This makes me sad.
13:10 < kanzure> *if you have to live in the 40s do not live in a small town
13:10 < indigenous> I mean the book was from 1940, most small towns in the UK lack decent library facilities now
13:10 < Mokbortolan_> do you think there's a market for rats genetically modified for increased intelligence?
13:11 < Mokbortolan_> or is that a foolish way to start a doomsday scenario...
13:11 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: rats are kind of hard creatures to love
13:11 < kanzure> i was thinking once that someone should start an 'adopt a lab rat' adoption agency
13:12 < Mokbortolan_> bullhockey
13:12 < Mokbortolan_> pet rats are adorable
13:12 < kanzure> well there might be enough people who would adopt a smarter rat
13:12 < kanzure> or even pay for one
13:12 < Mokbortolan_> I wrote Joe Tsien asking him to collaborate in a pet rat breeding program
13:13 < Mokbortolan_> I offered him full access to the animals and data, and discretion in the trait selection program
13:14 < Mokbortolan_> hopefully he'll bite, or I'll have to start without him and learn how to modify the rats myself :p
13:14 < kanzure> you should learn how to do that anyway :)
13:15 < Mokbortolan_> how does one actually go about over-expressing NR2B in the hippocampus?
13:15 < kanzure> promoters
13:15 < kanzure> lots and lots of promoters
13:15 < Mokbortolan_> I mean, in practical terms, where does the genetic modification take place?
13:15 < Mokbortolan_> egg/sperm combination?
13:16 < Mokbortolan_> modification of the egg or sperm prior to fertilization?
13:16 < kanzure> you would probably do in vitro fertilization
13:16 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_gene_expression
13:17 < kanzure> Genome-wide atlas of gene expression in the mouse brain http://kiefer.stat2.sinica.edu.tw/SBJC/slides/2007-06-20.pdf
13:18 < Mokbortolan_> are those traits heritable?
13:18 < kanzure> if you modify the initial genome before in vitro fertilization then that is the genome that the cell has to use
13:19 < Mokbortolan_> so are you talking embryonic modification or germ cell modification?
13:19  * Mokbortolan_ reads.
13:20 < kanzure> in vitro fertilization refers to fertilizing an embryo with specific genomic dna
13:20 < kanzure> there's another technique called scnt where you can physically replace the nucleic content of a cell
13:21 < kanzure> um i am somewhat embarrassed to admit that i do not have a good overview/review of gene regulation mechanisms to make sure your protein is overexpressed in some known amount
13:21 < kanzure> this has a few ok diagrams of how genetic regulatory networks work http://bi.snu.ac.kr/SEMINAR/BioNetwork/Engineered%20gene%20circuits.pdf
13:23 < kanzure> oh sometimes it's referred to as 'transcriptional networks'
13:24 < Mokbortolan_> hmm
13:24 < Mokbortolan_> maybe I'll leave the modification to existing experts and focus on breeding protocols :p
13:24 < kanzure> why :(
13:24 < Mokbortolan_> one idea I had was to select for rats able to understand human speech, at least better than they do now
13:25 < kanzure> and what would you start with to get there?
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13:26 < Mokbortolan_> a regular rat, or if Mr. Tsien is willing, an NR2B rat
13:26 < Mokbortolan_> or did you mean testing protocol
13:26 < kanzure> when you want to select for something that doesn't exist yet, you have to start by selecting for something that does
13:27 < Mokbortolan_> oh, right
13:27 < Mokbortolan_> I thought about testing for the successful association between words and reward
13:28 < Mokbortolan_> like, on a display, show the color blue and the word blue, then provide a blue door with food behind it
13:28 < Mokbortolan_> or a similar mechanism (lever, etc)
13:29 < Mokbortolan_> then do the same for "red"
13:29 < Mokbortolan_> then combine the two
13:29 < Mokbortolan_> and alternate between blue/red in a random pattern
13:30 < Mokbortolan_> and then, once the rat was successful at this, take away the display and have him rely on the word alone
13:30 < Mokbortolan_> tracking success all along the path
13:31 < Mokbortolan_> highly successful rats will be bred, and generation 2 will go through the same protocol
13:32 < kanzure> i don't think that selection experiment would work because the selector is not sufficiently discriminating
13:32 < kanzure> however i have an alternative suggestion
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13:32 < Mokbortolan_> Ok
13:32 < kanzure> you can model the rat auditory cortex in NEURON and other simulators and then feed it audio data
13:33 < kanzure> then you can tweak different parameters (controlled by different genes) to see when/if auditory processing ability improves
13:33 < kanzure> once you know which parameters you are aiming to tweak you can start the selection experiments
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13:34 < Mokbortolan_> and analyze for expression in the breeding program?
13:36 < Mokbortolan_> err, no, I see
13:36 < Mokbortolan_> to determine selection criteria
13:36 < kanzure> yes you could analyze for expression (usually by mRNA expression levels or protein expression levels in histological slices)
13:37 < kanzure> WHY DO I KNOW THESE THINGS
13:37 < kanzure> um right.. so anyway if you know what changes need to be made you could sometimes just make the genetic alterations to whatever defines the auditory cortex
13:37 < Mokbortolan_> that's a bit beyond my skill level
13:37 < kanzure> the selection experiment is the run mostly in silico - you will not need 20,000 generations of breeding
13:37 < kanzure> 50,000 generations is also beyond your skill level.
13:38 < Mokbortolan_> your'e right
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13:38 < Mokbortolan_> would it really take 50k generations?
13:38 < Mokbortolan_> maybe I could periodically bombard them with ionizing radiation :p
13:38 < kanzure> to get the exact mutations on the right set of a few hundred genes? prolly
13:39 < Mokbortolan_> I'm inspired by the russian silver fox domestication program
13:40 < kanzure> violence/aggression is much simpler than tweaking an auditory cortex
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13:40 < kanzure> do you believe simulations are impossible?
13:40 < kanzure> what's the holdup? i don't understand
13:40 < Mokbortolan_> no, I just don't know enough about them
13:41 < Mokbortolan_> maybe i could participate more fully with a research group
13:41 < kanzure> you have an insufficient level of hubris
13:41 < kanzure> hmm
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13:42 < Mokbortolan_> I am constantly downgrading the estimation of my own competence :p
13:42 < Mokbortolan_> with each new thing I learn
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13:43 < Mokbortolan_> or just bug the shit out of you until I learn enough to be effective
13:43 < kanzure> also.. i might be wrong but iirc mice/rats are able to be trained on auditory ques
13:43 < Mokbortolan_> they are
13:44 < Mokbortolan_> but, I would want the exceptional ones
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13:44 < Stee|> they are
13:44 < kanzure> Functional organization and population dynamics in the mouse primary auditory cortex http://neuro.bcm.edu/_web/jc/sn/nn_2484(2)(1).pdf
13:44 < Mokbortolan_> but variability might be an issue
13:44 < Stee|> kanzure, there was a recent study where they hooked up neuroprosthetics to rats
13:44 < Stee|> with an auditory tune feedback
13:44 < Stee|> *tone
13:45 < Mokbortolan_> Yeah! i read that one
13:45 < Mokbortolan_> genius
13:45 < Stee|> Mokbortolan_, there's a thread now by a guy who builds/sells tDCS machines
13:45 < kanzure> was it "Changing tune in auditory cortex"?
13:45 < kanzure> a thread?
13:46 < Stee|> kanz, lemme check
13:46 < Stee|> http://scienceblog.com/52514/new-hope-for-natural-feeling-neuroprosthetics/
13:46 < Mokbortolan_> Stee|: please don't say "flowstateengaged"
13:47 < Stee|> Mokbortolan_, what?
13:47 < Mokbortolan_> www.flowstateengaged.com
13:48 < Mokbortolan_> "Our tDCS kit is the shit. Here's why."
13:48 < Mokbortolan_> ugh
13:48 < kanzure> bah blah blah more marketing
13:48 < kanzure> marketing is lame
13:48 < Mokbortolan_> especially when there's NO PRODUCT
13:48 < kanzure> and even if there is product "Learn faster. Learn more. Be awesome." is not actually guaranteeable with tdcs
13:49 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: if you do some reading on gene regulation, i'd appreciate some paper contributions for my collection
13:50 < kanzure> esp. any reviews of specific control of expression levls of multiple elements
13:50 < kanzure> like say... 2 or 10 or 100 simultaneously different expression levels. that would be nice to know.
13:51 < kanzure> > I can't believe the countless hoards that seem intent on forever
13:51 < kanzure> > prohibiting exactly what I spent 10 years of my life and over $100,000 of my
13:52 < kanzure> > money at university learning how to do. I have the knowledge, skills, and
13:52 < kanzure> > desire to read and write the scripting language of life. But instead now,
13:52 < kanzure> > because of people like this, I drive a taxi cab. With all these
13:52 < kanzure> > bioconservative apes in charge, in the US, a biology degree might as well be
13:52 < kanzure> > a degree in music appreciation.
13:52 < ThomasEgi> Mokbortolan_, want one? if there is enough demand to justify a few hours work i have to spend i can build that constant-current controll you would need for tdcs
13:52 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: btw what did you price your time at?
13:52 < Mokbortolan_> I've got the parts, I just need 1-3hrs to sit down and construct it
13:52 < Mokbortolan_> I'm in the middle of moving, sothat doesn't help
13:52 < Stee|> ThomasEgi, do you have the magnetic implants?
13:53 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, i dont see this community as a commecrial entity, so i wont ask for money of my worktime. just the materials i use. that would be only a few bucks for pcb's and parts
13:53 < ThomasEgi> Stee|, only an rfid. i am still waiting for better shaped/coated magnets, that are easier to inject.
13:53 < Mokbortolan_> ThomasEgi: I do want one though :p
13:54 < Mokbortolan_> the guy who moderates the tDCS forum came up with a *really* elegant design
13:54 < ThomasEgi> i might skipp the magnets altogether. and go straight for the bigger ones
13:54 < ThomasEgi> Mokbortolan_, link?
13:54 < Stee|> okay. ThomasEgi, if/when you do get them, I have some experimental protocols I'd like to test
13:54 < Mokbortolan_> he hasn't posted about it yet
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13:55 < ThomasEgi> Mokbortolan_, a controllable current-source with 2mA isn"t very difficult to do, the circuit parts are hardly worth 2 $
13:56 < Mokbortolan_> the trick is making 99.9999999% sure the thing doesn't let loose with too much current
13:56 < ThomasEgi> there is no such thing is 100%
13:57 < ThomasEgi> and meantime between failures is hard to calculate.
13:57 < Mokbortolan_> fuses help there
13:57 < ThomasEgi> usualy you have your resistors, they tend to never fail and limit the current even in case of the most catastrophic events
13:58 < ThomasEgi> in the design i had in mind. there are only 3 active  parts
13:58 < ThomasEgi> one transistor. 2 diodes.
13:59 < Mokbortolan_> can it adjust for varying load resistance?
13:59 < ThomasEgi> unless you kill it with too high supply voltage or by massive ESD surges. they wont fail
13:59 < ThomasEgi> sure
13:59 < ThomasEgi> it is a constant current source.
13:59 < ThomasEgi> you have a knob. that allows you to set the current between 0 and 2mA
13:59 < Mokbortolan_> can you post a schematic? I'd love to know how it works
14:00 < ThomasEgi> i already did post a link here. some weeks ago. lemme find it again
14:01 < ThomasEgi> http://home.arcor.de/positiveelectron/files/controllable-cc-source.png
14:01 < ThomasEgi> pretty much a textbook circuit, with slight adaption to make the current-controll indebendant of the supply voltage
14:02 < ThomasEgi> if you want, you can add an additional protection resistor at the top-wire.
14:02 < Mokbortolan_> hmm
14:03 < Mokbortolan_> I'd ask you how it works, but that would probably require you to explain elementary theories :p
14:03 < ThomasEgi> that would limit the current even in the catastrophic event of a transistor-break-through AND both diodes breakthrough at the same time
14:03 < ThomasEgi> hm. well i could give you the short version.
14:03 < ThomasEgi> but it wouldnt make sense unless you have at least a basic understanding of how electronic works
14:04 < ThomasEgi> so if you are fine with currents and voltages i cant try to explain
14:04 < Mokbortolan_> I know what each of the components do invidivually
14:04 < ThomasEgi> okay. so. i will start left to right
14:05 < ThomasEgi> D1 and R1 make a constant-voltage source. the output forks of to RV1. it will usualy be the zener-diode-voltage (in this case 4.7V)
14:06 < ThomasEgi> RV is a poti acting as voltage-divider. followed by the diode D2, that simply drops 0.65V(i will get to that later)
14:06 < ThomasEgi> so the output of RV1 will vary, depending on your knob-position. between 0.65V and 4.7V
14:07 < ThomasEgi> that voltage is put on the base of the NPN transistor. that is where a bit of magic happens.
14:08 < ThomasEgi> the transistors base-emmiter voltage is (in this case, pretty fixed) about 650mV (the same as D1)
14:08 < ThomasEgi> so if you put 4.7V on the base. roughly 0.7 will be dropped over the B-E trace of the tranistor. the remaining 4V have to be dropped at R2
14:09 < ThomasEgi> R2 is 4Kohm , so if you put 4V on it, according to ohm's law , it will flow a current of 4V/2000ohm. that is 2mA
14:09 < ThomasEgi> given, that current cant be drawn from the collector of the transistor
14:09 < ThomasEgi> if not. it will be less.
14:10 < ThomasEgi> it pretty much doesnt matter if you directly connect the collector to the battery. or if you have 100ohms on it.
14:11 < ThomasEgi> in worst case. your resistance will be so high, that that will be the current limiting parts.
14:11 < ThomasEgi> but over a very wide range of load-resistances , the current will be very stable and constant.
14:12 < ThomasEgi> turning the knob to lower the voltage at the transistor base, will lineary decrease the current too.
14:12 < ThomasEgi> down to 0, or pretty close to 0 V
14:13 < ThomasEgi> if you operate the circut from a single 9V block battery, i would adapt the Zener voltage to something like 2.7V, and R2 to 1kOhm
14:14 < ThomasEgi> the whole circuit is stable, wont oscillate, is vastly independand from the transistor properties (any npn transistor rated the maximum voltage of your battery supply should do)
14:15 < ThomasEgi> if you want extra-protection you can also add a simple FET based current limiter in the electrode wire.
14:16 < ThomasEgi> i wouldn't sell that thing as medical-grade system. but for most hobbyist who know what they are doing, that should be perfectly fine as long as you dont spill coke over the circuit or anything like that
14:17 < ThomasEgi> questions/suggestions?
14:18 < Stee|> ask me in two months :P
14:18 < Stee|> lol
14:19 < ThomasEgi> i guess the thing is pretty easy to build yourself. but if anyone feels so terribly unskilled i could easily make a few boards next time i build pcb's in my lab.
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14:29 < Mokbortolan_> argh
14:29 < Mokbortolan_> pidgin crashed
14:29 < Mokbortolan_> I need a new client
14:30 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: irssi, xchat, bitchx, osx people like uh... textual or something
14:30 < Stee|> I use virc
14:30 < Stee|> but it's not 7 compatible
14:30 < indigenous> I use quassel. Good support on #quassel
14:31 < indigenous> I use it on winodws but i is multiplatform
14:31 < indigenous> *windows
14:34 < indigenous> What it looks like on windows: http://i.imgur.com/RWam4.png
14:34 < jrayhawk> Mokbortolan: let me know if you want an ssh account somewhere you can keep a persistent session.
14:35 < indigenous> Not as feature full as mIRC with NoNamescript but probably the best up and coming. As you can tell I really like it :)
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14:37 < thylane> 54 nicks.  (sweet jeezus)
14:37 < kanzure> hello thylane
14:37 < thylane> hi
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14:38 < kanzure> hi A-Lusion
14:38 < A-Lusion> HOLY SHIT
14:38 < Mokbortolan_> xchat is not free :(
14:38 < A-Lusion> I Love you guys already
14:38 < Stee|> I love us too.
14:38 < Stee|> what's up
14:38 < A-Lusion> I was recommended from #ai
14:38 < uniqanomaly> ;)
14:38 < A-Lusion> Omg nootropics
14:39 < A-Lusion> biohacking
14:39 < Mokbortolan_> jrayhawk: Thanks! I need to implement that myself
14:39 < Mokbortolan_> though
14:39 < A-Lusion> Someone set me up with more info, I been looking at ordering some nootropics myself!
14:39 < A-Lusion> I was thinking piracetum and chloline
14:39 < Mokbortolan_> right now I'm using a "persistent session" in the form of a laptop behind my TV at home :p
14:39 < uniqanomaly> A-Lusion: http://reddit.com/r/nootropics
14:39 < kanzure> A-Lusion: well the best supplier online at the moment is Mokbortolan_
14:39 < Mokbortolan_> changed the RDP port to 443 and Bob's your uncle
14:40 < A-Lusion> Have you guys heard of the protein that is showing evidence of photographic memory?
14:40 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: I'm out of piracetam
14:40 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: dude you had like a shipping container of it
14:40 < Mokbortolan_> I had 28kg
14:40 < kanzure> A-Lusion: no can you link me to the pdb file?
14:40 < Mokbortolan_> blew through it in 2.5mo, it was crazy
14:41 < A-Lusion> My friend has the article he will be here in a  matter of minutes
14:41 < A-Lusion> HOWEVER
14:41 < kanzure> A-Lusion: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
14:41 < Mokbortolan_> A-Lusion: HardRhino is the cheapest good-reputation seller right now
14:41 < A-Lusion> I am sure you guys are aware of the article "zapping your brain into the fast lane to pure focus"
14:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/stem-cells/
14:41 < uniqanomaly> Mokbortolan_ 373g/day? ;D
14:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/
14:41 < kanzure> have some papers..
14:41 < Mokbortolan_> uniqanomaly: I was a reseller
14:41 < kanzure> A-Lusion: tdcs is interesting but the localization is weak
14:41 < uniqanomaly> Mokbortolan_: yeah just kidding ;D
14:41 < thylane> >_>   http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2012/03/how-to/make-a-biohack-lab
14:42 < uniqanomaly> Mokbortolan_: just imagine it
14:42 < kanzure> A-Lusion: ultrasound has 2mm resolution (or better) http:/diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound
14:42 < uniqanomaly> ;D
14:42 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: I posted a paper on the tDCS reddut about a group that found  a way to focus it more tightly
14:42 < kanzure> thylane: i keep track of diybio articles here http://bit.ly/diybionews2
14:42 < A-Lusion> Holy shit so many links and information <3_<3
14:42 < Mokbortolan_> using multiple anodes to guide the current
14:42 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: and how specific is it
14:42 < kanzure> i am not amused
14:42 < Mokbortolan_> fairly specific, IIRC
14:42 < Mokbortolan_> lemme get you the link
14:42 < kanzure> i'm just not generally convinced :x
14:42 < kanzure> i'd like that
14:43 < A-Lusion> tdcs stands for?
14:43 < kanzure> transcranial direct current stimulation
14:43 < kanzure> but really.. try ultrasound http:/diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound
14:43 < A-Lusion> Aha! yes are there DIY methods out that are.. safe
14:43 < A-Lusion> Ultrasound
14:43 < kanzure> it depends on how safe you want safe to man
14:43 < kanzure> *mean
14:43 < Mokbortolan_> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5754695
14:43 < Mokbortolan_> I have the actual text of the article too
14:44 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: haha yes but the abstract is vague
14:44 < kanzure> what's the actual resolution
14:44 < thylane> I need to biohack   histrionicotoxin.   PM me if you know how.
14:44 < kanzure> thylane: why PM??
14:44 < kanzure> wtf is this
14:44 < thylane> o_o
14:44 < Stee|> kanzure doesn't like pms
14:44 < Stee|> they don't get logged into the gnusha logs/aren't public :P
14:45 < kanzure> thylane: what do you mean by 'biohack'.. what do you need to do
14:45 < Mokbortolan_> oh wow
14:46 < Mokbortolan_> I thought they were just doing better localization on the exterior bits, but no, they're focusing on deep areas
14:46 < kanzure> well, how good?
14:47 < thylane> histrionicotoxins cannot be synthesized outside of million-dollar labs.   So biohack
14:47 < kanzure> thylane: ok so you want to synthesize them
14:47 < Stee|> histrionicotoxins are synthetically challenging, apparently
14:48 -!- Stee| is now known as Steel_Gym
14:48 < kanzure> is this chemical synthesis or protein purification?
14:48 < kanzure> looks like a chemical
14:48 < kanzure> i bet there's some biochemical pathway that synthesizes it
14:49 < Mokbortolan_> hmm
14:49 < Mokbortolan_> they don't talk about area besides the electrode size, 2cm
14:50 < uniqanomaly> Mokbortolan_: anything about stimulating few areas at once?
14:50 < Mokbortolan_> the diagrams seem to show multiple channels between the electrodes converging on a targeted region
14:51 < uniqanomaly> a few*
14:51 < Mokbortolan_> http://www.mediafire.com/?3338ilt03r6gun6
14:51 < Mokbortolan_> here's the paper
14:52 < Mokbortolan_> it's a simulation, btw
14:52 < uniqanomaly> thx
14:53 < Mokbortolan_> it doesn't appear to be something that is accessible by the DIY tDCS'er
14:53 < Mokbortolan_> ... yet
14:53 < kanzure> why is a simulation inaccessilbe?
14:53 < kanzure> *inaccessible
14:55 < Mokbortolan_> matlab licenses are expensive?  I dunno, I guess I'm just speaking for myself :p
14:55 < kanzure> matlab is not necessary for simulations
14:56 < kanzure> mA/m^2 in "right inferior parietal lobe"
14:57 < kanzure> running 1 mA through it
14:59 < thylane> http://www.reddit.com/r/DIYbio/
15:01 < kanzure> thylane: this is more active http://groups.google.com/group/diybio
15:02 < thylane> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328501.600-zap-your-brain-into-the-zone-fast-track-to-pure-focus.html?full=true&print=true
15:02 < kanzure> thylane: scroll up :P
15:06 < thylane> i found
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15:39 < strangewarp> Okay, I can't stand regular people
15:39 < strangewarp> All caring about Pez and Minecraft and Democrats and shit
15:40 < strangewarp> I am witnessing, in one of my old haunts, an argument about the shape of Pez candies
15:40 < strangewarp> Last night I was advised by relatives to give up them dang brain pills and eat some whole grains.
15:40  * strangewarp boggles
15:40 < jrayhawk> yes, because the CXCR/zonulin cascade is so much healthier
15:41 < jrayhawk> GOOD PLAN, GUYS
15:47 < uniqanomaly> fuck whole grains, keto ftw
15:50 < uniqanomaly> keto/paleo
15:51 < Mokbortolan_> Zombie paleo ftw
15:51  * Mokbortolan_ only eats running, screaming people.
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16:00 < kanzure> Receiving objects: 100% (4117/4117), 5.75 MiB | 372 KiB/s, done.
16:00 < kanzure> fatal: Out of memory, malloc failed (tried to allocate 85018625 bytes)
16:00 < kanzure> fatal: index-pack failed
16:00 < jrayhawk> impressive
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16:13 < strangewarp> zombie paleo, hahaha
16:14 < strangewarp> I will definitely go paleo once there's some dang vat-meat on the shelves.
16:14 < strangewarp> Right now eating meat gives me a nasty case of the guilts.
16:19 < strangewarp> Could probably do vegetarian paleo, and counteract the increased estrogen from the tofu by eating a lot of button mushrooms... bit spendy and inconvenient though
16:19 < strangewarp> Pressing tofu is annoying, basically, and processed soy is spendy
16:20 < Steel2> I just eat meat
16:20 < strangewarp> barbarian :p
16:21 < Steel2> yeh
16:21 < Steel2> I'll uplift some animals or some shit to make up for it in a couple hundred years
16:21 < Steel2> [/sarcasm]
16:21 < strangewarp> hahahah
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16:35 < Mokbortolan_> I just wish quorn would see greater acceptance
16:36 < Mokbortolan_> it's the food-stuff (emphasis on 'stuff') of the future (we will spend living underground)!
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16:40 < kanzure> the real barbaric act is eating at all
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16:40 < kanzure> clearly the most buddhist of the buddhist are those who do not eat.. or something
16:41 < strangewarp> I would love to have a body that doesn't require food, or sleep
16:41 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: the dalai lama eats meat
16:41 < kanzure> or a body that didn't require a body
16:41 < Mokbortolan_> though, he eats what he's given
16:41 < strangewarp> kanzure: indeed
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17:09 < kanzure> https://geoloqi.com/blog/2012/03/data-portraits-powered-by-3-5-years-of-data-and-2-5-million-gps-points/
17:10 < kanzure> the coloring looks really great
17:10 < kanzure> i wonder what sort of blur/filter that is
17:10 < thylane> Lets create a strange new bacteria. In the  garage.
17:10 < thylane> using DNA
17:10 < thylane> let's do this
17:10 < kanzure> i don't understand how you would do it without DNA
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17:11 < Mokbortolan_> you can do it with UV radiation
17:11 < Mariu> nanites
17:11 < Mokbortolan_> it's the bacteria doing stuff with DNA
17:11 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: because of DNA, yes..
17:11 < kanzure> Mariu: that doesn't exist (except if you include viruses)
17:11 < Mariu> kanzure: gotcha
17:12 < kanzure> thylane: are you a biologist?
17:12 < strangewarp> nanites? needs more manites
17:13 < Mariu> lol
17:13 < strangewarp> convert your manly chest into gold. now that's a treasure chest
17:13 < strangewarp> oh god, help
17:13 < kanzure> strangewarp: you have been promoted to head of ##hplusroadmap marketing
17:13 < strangewarp> no, no
17:13 < strangewarp> this is the worst decision
17:14 < strangewarp> all I have is an associate's degree, chiptunes, and a sarcastic twitter
17:14 < kanzure> http://guy.com/a/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Gaston-Beauty-and-the-Beast-chest.jpg
17:15 < kanzure> thylane: no but really.. are you a biologist?
17:15 < strangewarp> that image, ow.
17:19 < uniqanomaly> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1017460/ dis
17:20 < uniqanomaly> Splice muvi
17:21 < kanzure> A-Lusion: who's the friend you mentioned?
17:24 < kanzure> mokbor's earlier ref. paper regarding targetted tDCS:
17:24 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/A%20novel%20array-type%20transcranial%20direct%20current%20stimulation%20(tDCS)%20system%20for%20accurate%20focusing%20on%20targeted%20brain%20areas%20-%202011.pdf
17:24 < kanzure> superkuh: what do you think?
17:26 < kanzure> i'm a little suspicious if nobody has been working on 'deep' brain targetting and this is the first paper of the sort to test it
17:27 < kanzure> it looks like the cited abhishek work was only for one particular configuration of an 'array', which is somewhat of an odd choice
17:28 < kanzure> ha they used tetgen.. that's nice of them.
17:28 < kanzure> somewhat better than using netgen
17:29 < kanzure> "However, the approach required heavy computational burden as the FEM solver needed to be executed repeatedly for every iteration, which made it difficult for the approach to be used in practical applications."
17:30 < kanzure> iteration = different configuration? or iteration=treatment?
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17:35 < jrayhawk> "16:14 < strangewarp> Right now eating meat gives me a nasty case of the guilts." while i don't presume to understand your value system, here, keep in mind croplands are vast ecological monocultures supported with ground bones and involving devastation of what meager habitat they provide at harvest time
17:36 < jrayhawk> so if you value biodiversity or stable ecology or bioadvancement, free-range cows wind up being a fairly good option
17:37 < jrayhawk> (or if animal bones aren't involved, there's *even more* soil mineral depletion)
17:37 < jrayhawk> basically you should be feeling constant crippling guilt about everything all the time
17:38 < jrayhawk> YOU CAN NEVER ESCAPE HA HA HA
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17:39 < kanzure> joe you are a master at your art.
17:39 < kanzure> a professional, even.
17:39 < strangewarp> it's an issue, then, of the guilt of destroying the resource-base and being complicit in animal suffering, versus the guilt of being the explicit reason for animal suffering and the redemption of shoring up scarce resources
17:39 < jrayhawk> have you met steve
17:39 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure you're steve
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17:40 < kanzure> and jenna pietrzyctyl is jules or something
17:40 < jrayhawk> i am the entire internet
17:40 < jrayhawk> this is all a rouse
17:44 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
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17:48 < Mariu> hey, Jay
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17:55 < kanzure> yashgaroth: two things in the logs for you to look at.. first is that i am lacking any good reviews in my collection regarding comprehensive lists of gene regulators, second is the localized tdcs paper
18:00 < yashgaroth> k
18:09 < yashgaroth> so first, I know barely anything about neuro so I can't comment on any tdcs stuff; second, the sort of review would be "the entire field of molecular genetics" so you're better off asking a specific question
18:09 < superkuh> I might be misinterpreting the infographics and my first reading of the paper, but it it does not seem very localized to me.
18:09 < superkuh> And this is portrayed as a positive quality.
18:10 < yashgaroth> but if Mok wants to expression that transgene in rat hippocampi, I'd check the allen brain atlas for a gene that only gets expressed there, and copy its whole regulatory region
18:10 < yashgaroth> -ion*
18:11 < yashgaroth> also IVF and SCNT are wholly outside of any garage tech, so I'd look into sperm-mediated gene transfer
18:16 < kanzure> what's wrong with scnt :(
18:17 < yashgaroth> how tiny can you make a needle
18:17 < Steel2> inner or outer diameter
18:17 < kanzure> i was preoccupied with making cantilevers for afms once
18:17 < yashgaroth> both
18:17 < kanzure> but those were not hollow
18:17 < Steel2> inner diameter, my lab has 5um needles
18:18 < yashgaroth> SMGT is fine for this and it's literally "centrifuge sperm, resuspend in PBS with plasmid, inseminate"
18:19 < yashgaroth> also where is the tsien paper, can't you just copy his regulatory region
18:19 < kanzure> i'm familiar with *some* regulatory regions
18:19 < kanzure> but not in a comprehensive way
18:19 < kanzure> you know.. in the way that matters
18:19 < yashgaroth> that whole field is still a clusterfuck, you can't just plug something in
18:26 < Mokbortolan_> Set Ruby = CreatObject("Adodb.wat")
18:26 < kanzure> s/wat/wut
18:26 < yashgaroth> oh also Mok, lemme know when you get some more piracetam in
18:27 < Mokbortolan_> I don't think I'm gonna, hardrhino beat my price
18:27 < yashgaroth> nooo okay then
18:27 < Mokbortolan_> I just wanted to start a price war
18:33 < yashgaroth> p.s. silverex has the free version of xchat for windows if you're still looking for a client
18:35 < Mokbortolan_> Ahh, ok, I'll check it out
18:35 < Mokbortolan_> btw I'm not against carrying piracetam, I just don't see the point when a higher-volume reseller is matching my price
18:36 < Mokbortolan_> of course, if they raise their prices, I'll definitely carry it again
18:36 < Mokbortolan_> I will be carrying other things though, noopept, aniracetam, centrophenoxine, and l-theanine
18:36 < yashgaroth> competition's important, but if the threat of competition is enough, then hey
18:37 < Mokbortolan_> I was just concerned about the reduction in the number of sellers and the rising price
18:38 < yashgaroth> might be good to at least stock up, just in case the gov't gets too interested
18:40 < Mokbortolan_> true
18:40 < Steel2> easy enough to import it yashg
18:41 < yashgaroth> ...for now
18:41 < yashgaroth> I'll base my opinion on how long my modafinil gets held up in customs, I'm at 3 days now
18:47 < yashgaroth> oh and if anyone asks, I totally have narcolepsfgmdkl;
18:54 < Mokbortolan_> uhoh
18:54 < yashgaroth> whoa what happened guys? I have this condition
18:54 < Mokbortolan_> I'd talk more about that, but this channel is publicly logged
18:55 < Mokbortolan_> transparency ftw!
18:55 < yashgaroth> yay
18:59 < Steel2> my abs hurt like a mofo
19:00 < jrayhawk> did animals punch you in the solar plexus and steal your lunch money after you mocked them
19:19 < Steel2> nah
19:19 < Steel2> dragon flags
19:19 < JayDugger> eh?
19:20 < Steel2> it's a type of exercise
19:20 < JayDugger> http://www.unique-bodyweight-exercises.com/dragon-flag.html
19:20 < JayDugger> That it?
19:22 < JayDugger> It looks like a recipe for back pain without first having a good strong back.
19:23 < Steel2> yeah, I have that too
19:24 < JayDugger> Back pain or a strong back?
19:26 < Steel2> strong back
19:41 < Mariu> later guys
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22:40 < strangewarp> Noting, here, that PZ Myers is a douche, who uses the word "rational", but in his use thereof, merely refers to that which is approved by the slow-moving traditional science community.
22:41 < strangewarp> Also, he is pro-circumcision-without-consent for some mind-boggling reason.
22:47 < strangewarp> Because you can use that sense of "rational" to disprove false things, like spirit-animals and homeopathy, he assumes that anything that can be disproven therewith is similarly false. This is an oversight. This is also why he makes fun of singularity stuff, and short-timeframe transhumanist stuff.
23:03 < kanzure> singularity is not beyond the grasp of humor
23:04 < kanzure> short-timeframe transhumanist stuff is passing him by anyway
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23:27 < kanzure> welp from now on this is how i'm showing off python
23:27 < kanzure> http://people.csail.mit.edu/pgbovine/python/tutor.html#mode=edit
23:27 < kanzure> and this isn't that bad for js:
23:27 < kanzure> http://learnjs.info/#mode=visualize
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23:33 < Utopiah_> nice
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23:44 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: what about an array setup for tdcs? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/A%20novel%20array-type%20transcranial%20direct%20current%20stimulation%20
23:44 < kanzure> erm
23:44 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/A%20novel%20array-type%20transcranial%20direct%20current%20stimulation%20(tDCS)%20system%20for%20accurate%20focusing%20on%20targeted%20brain%20areas%20-%202011.pdf
23:46 < ThomasEgi> need to controll each current output independently?
23:46 < kanzure> think so yes
23:47 < kanzure> and their setup looks a little small.. i would expect a larger number of array elements
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23:48 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, i havent looked too closely at the thing. need to go to university now, exam time.
23:49 < ThomasEgi> i may or may not be bakc within a few hours. but in.. probably 8 hours i will be back online
23:49 < kanzure> man all this school is getting in the way of important things
23:49 < ThomasEgi> if all you need is more current-sources. it should be no problem
23:49 < ThomasEgi> well it is digital signal processing exam. it isnt that bad^
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 15 00:00:52 2012