--- Log opened Tue Mar 20 00:00:55 2012
--- Day changed Tue Mar 20 2012
00:00 < joshcryer> energy is free :(
00:04 < fenn> opinions are free
00:05 < fenn> unless they are unpopular
00:05 < fenn> i.e. i believe people should be sterilized if they have more than 7 kids
00:05 < fenn> other people believe i should not have this opinion
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00:06 < fenn> grmp
00:20 < joshcryer> why 7?
00:21 < fenn> because it's a lucky number
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01:08 < fenn> anyone want to run for humanity+ board of directors? it's a great waste of time and annoys everyone in your address book
01:08 < fenn> i wonder if mccabe accomplished anything he set out to do
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02:13 < fenn> blargh
02:13 < fenn> does this mean something? "maximum complexity awareness"
02:14 < fenn> aka the size of a system or network beyond which it is impossible to make predictions
02:14 < fenn> for a given predictor, i.e. a human
02:15 < fenn> so i can read about biochemistry all day long and not even come close to covering KEGG, which is itself incomplete with regards to detail
02:17 < fenn> a motion planner can only govern a robot with so many degrees of freedom before it poops out
02:18 < fenn> a physics system can only simulate up to N bodies with the inverse square law before it bogs down
02:21 < katsmeow-afk> question: how do you get http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00010.html  into a db in such a way the computer can know Glycerate-2P is mentioned and where it is in the pathway?
02:23 < fenn> hum, "development of a taxonomy of human performance" (1968) http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/684583.pdf
02:24 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/www_bget?K01834+K01837+K15633+K15634+K15635+5.4.2.1+R01518 doesn't mention Glycerate-2P
02:24 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: kegg IS a database
02:24 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.wikipathways.org//index.php?query=Glycerate-2P&title=Special%3ASearchPathways&doSearch=1&sa=Search  has yet to respond
02:24 < fenn> i believe the maps are auto generated from the database
02:25 < katsmeow-afk> ok, KEGG is the database, how does one know how to get the raw database, or xml/text describing the pathway immediate to Glycerate-2P ?
02:26 < fenn> i searched for glycerate and found http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/www_bget?rn:R00658
02:26 < fenn> or is that the reverse reaction?
02:28 < fenn> maybe this one? http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/www_bget?rn:R08572
02:28 < katsmeow-afk> according to http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00010.html  it's bidirectional
02:28 < fenn> anyway there is a link on the right for "download rdf"
02:29 < fenn> blah that's terrible
02:29 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, no help
02:29 < fenn> i have no idea how you're supposed to use this, sorry
02:31 < katsmeow-afk> would it help in some way to be able to query in here, by any of the data ?
02:32 < fenn> in general i'm skeptical of irc bots
02:33 < katsmeow-afk> atm, i see no way of linking anything in http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/www_bget?rn:R00658  back to http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00010.html  , or vice versa
02:33 < fenn> they might be unrelated
02:34 < katsmeow-afk> well, that would explain it
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02:35 < fenn> from http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/www_bget?map00010 download RDF gives you a list of reactions, the entities starting with R
02:36 < fenn> i gotta say their usage of verbs just plain sucks
02:36 < fenn> "original" and "reverse" are not verbs
02:38 < fenn> geesh
02:38  * fenn labels it "bad usability" and returns to something productive
02:38 < katsmeow-afk> ah, the text is called "Pathway Entry" , in the sence of that beng the enry in the db, and not the chemicals entering the pathway
02:38 < fenn> btw you can click on elements in the pathway map
02:38 < fenn> it's an image map
02:39 < katsmeow-afk> yes, the [number boxes] are clickable, but give me little
02:39 < katsmeow-afk> oooo,, Ie is displaying differently, and gives me more interaction with the picture
02:40 < katsmeow-afk> hold on while i take a bat to FF
02:41 < katsmeow-afk> ok, i guess my question can be formed as an example, if you asked for data about phosphoenolpyruvate , you want anything back from the aethernet that freenode lives in?
02:41 < katsmeow-afk> besides an echo
02:43 < fenn> if there's a bot, i'd prefer if the bot responded only to directed inquiries
02:43 < fenn> however i've seen these things abused in the past and it's just extra noise
02:43 < katsmeow-afk> such inquiries take what form?
02:43 < fenn> like "bot: what is phosphoenolpyruvate?"
02:43 < katsmeow-afk> well, the data can be sent privately
02:44 < katsmeow-afk> ah, that sorta direction, of course
02:44 < fenn> one thing that could be helpful is automatically showing the title of youtube links when people don't explain why they're important
02:44 < katsmeow-afk> spell checking and alt names and forms will be a bitch
02:45 < fenn> i think we can get by with google for knowledge queries
02:45  * katsmeow-afk will ponder this a while
02:45 < katsmeow-afk> then i need not apply?
02:46 < fenn> well, the code is less useful if it's running "elsewhere" as an external service, even if it has an API
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02:47 < fenn> can't rely on having access to it, or future existence
02:47 < fenn> consider two dictionary lookup programs
02:48 < fenn> one has a dictionary file from which it displays entries
02:48 < katsmeow-afk> you can say the same of google or KEGG
02:48 < fenn> the other queries google and displays google's definition
02:48 < fenn> i prefer the one with the dictionary file because it is always going to be there
02:49 < katsmeow-afk> me too, even if google is there the reception can be bad
02:49 < fenn> certainly
02:49 < fenn> however, google has thousands of people working to make sure that it stays available, at least on the general internet
02:50 < katsmeow-afk> but they do not check each and every answer google gives on the internet
02:50 < fenn> so, given internet availability, it's a near certainty that google will also be available
02:50 < fenn> it's another question entirely whether the answers are useful or reliable
02:50 < katsmeow-afk> sometimes a word list is not the correct answer to "what is my dog doing?"
02:51 < fenn> um, i think i'm rambling
02:51  * katsmeow-afk will think on it a while
02:51 < katsmeow-afk> i may even make up a db i can give to kanzure
02:51 < fenn> i would love a quick lookup for foods in the usda database, i.e. "eggs" returns "eggs, whole, cooked"
02:51 < fenn> instead of having to select obvious selections all the time
02:52 < katsmeow-afk> how does getting "eggs, whole, cooked" as a return help you?
02:52 < fenn> well, it would display the data for that entry
02:52 < fenn> instead of requiring an extra step to select the entry to display
02:52 < katsmeow-afk> what data would you like? Tiggr has gigabytes of food in various forms
02:53 < fenn> here's what i'm currently using (sub optimal) http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-eggs000000000000000000000.html
02:54 < fenn> there's also a command line program called nut-nutrition which can display usda data, but it's similar
02:55 < katsmeow-afk> wierd, it considered an egg on toast to be a baked good, and gave me this http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/baked-products/4840/2
02:55 < katsmeow-afk> the pics wold be difficult to show on irc
02:55 < fenn> EGG,WHOLE,COOKED,FRIED
02:56 < fenn> so i had to narrow the selection 3 times
02:56 < fenn> i'm not even sure how to go about this except by learning what people click on
02:57 < fenn> there's huge swaths of stuff that can be excluded because it wasn't specified, like anything from a fast food company unless you specify that company in the search query
02:58 < katsmeow-afk> if you asked for ITEM on irc, and ITEM wasn't listed alone, just like egg isn't, you'd still have prompts to narrow the selection
02:59 < katsmeow-afk> the only way i se to auto-narrow it is if the data for poached, fried, etc is identical, or at least close
02:59 < fenn> also exclude "bar with foo" (where foo is what's being searched for)
03:00 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, if yo ask for an ingredient of a cake, don't present cakes as options
03:01 < katsmeow-afk> checking the 3 selections for egg substitutes, they aren't the same, even tho they are egg
03:01 < katsmeow-afk> or not
03:03 < katsmeow-afk> ok,, i need sleep, gnites
03:04 < fenn> ciao
03:08 < fenn> interesting risk benefit tradeoff matrix http://hprc-online.org/dietary-supplements/dietary-supplement-classification-system-1
03:10 < fenn> it's weak on data though
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03:27 < fenn> why do fleishman and kinkade sound familiar
03:36 < fenn> "a critical problem in the experimental study of factors affecting human performance is the lack of standard tasks and measures which can help integrate and compare results from various laboratories"
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03:48 < fenn> ah here we go, the actual taxonomy itself (ignore earlier pdf) http://www.iosolutions.org/uploadedFiles/IOS/IO_Solutions/Research_and_Resources/Agency_Resources/White_Papers/Fleishman-white%20paper.pdf
03:48 < fenn> human abilities taxonomy
03:53 < fenn> well, it's not very abstract
03:55 < fenn> also it's missing things, for example perseverance (willpower, focus, curiosity)
03:56 < fenn> words words words
04:06 < fenn> "One virtue is more of a virtue than two, because it is more of a knot for one's destiny to cling to."
04:06 < fenn> "When virtue has slept, it will arise all the more vigorous."
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08:32 < strages_work> need some help getting a paper from behind a paywall.  anyone want to help?
08:32 < strages_work> Laser Scribing of High-Performance and Flexible Graphene-Based Electrochemical Capacitors
09:07 < Mokbortolan_> paywalls are meant to keep the undesirables *away* from the information
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09:08 < lichen> im pretty sure its more about money
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09:28 < strangewarp> If I say it's about terrists, I get money from my paywall
09:28 < strangewarp> terrists!!!
09:29 < strangewarp> Also um uh, the proletariat!!! oooh spooky they do revolutions don'tcha know
09:29 < strages_work> look I
09:29 < strages_work> *I'm just interested in replicating the experiment
09:30 < ThomasEgi> strages_work, tried to disable javascript?
09:30 < ThomasEgi> it might not help, but i once had a online-newspaper where that did the trick already
09:30 < strages_work> no I did not, I'll try that
09:35 < kanzure> strages_work: http://ezproxy.free-webmaster-resources.org/
09:36 < strages_work> kanzure: 403 error
09:37 < strages_work> and a login prompt if I try https
09:38 < ThomasEgi> is the server located near you?
09:38 < ThomasEgi> if so, get car with cisco logo and a coat+hat with the same.
09:38 < ThomasEgi> walk in. make a backup of the server, walk out.
09:45 < kanzure> "When I taught at Stanford Law School last year, I asked students what they planned to do with their lives. Most were headed to big law firms but didn’t expect to become partners and didn’t know the next step after that."
09:45 < kanzure> "They didn’t have long-term plans about what they wanted to achieve in their lives. I think the educational system has become a major factor stopping people from thinking about the future. It’s far from equilibrium"
09:45 < kanzure> "There is something like $1 trillion in student debt. A cynical view is that that represents $1 trillion worth of lies told about the value of higher education."
09:46 < Mokbortolan_> I disagree
09:47 < ThomasEgi> reason №1  why i am running my own business besides studying
09:47 < Mokbortolan_> I think it's about $500 billion worth of education inflated due to lack of market pressures
09:57 < Mokbortolan_> though, overall, I think most education is probably good for us as a society
09:57 < Mokbortolan_> even if it doesn't necessarily translate into economic productivity
09:58 < Mokbortolan_> it (hopefully) creates a more informed citizenry capable of entertaining nuance and able to exercise some critical thinking skills
09:58 < Mokbortolan_> which is probably why the right wing is opposed to it :p
09:59 < ThomasEgi> just. for a split of a second. imagine all people to educate themselves and being productive in their spare time, instead of watching tv.
10:00 < Mokbortolan_> that would be a vastly more disciplined society than what exists now :p
10:01 < Mokbortolan_> although, it could be argued that the early education system and parental attitudes toward education is what created the current situation, where additional education is used as punishment for our youth
10:03 < ThomasEgi> and the prize for getting through the educational system is to be able to work, and be lazy
10:04 < Mokbortolan_> I get the impression that for many, thinking and learning is exhausting or painful
10:04 < Mokbortolan_> I don't know if that's a learned attitude or a characteristic of the "average" mind
10:07 < ThomasEgi> probably learned attitude
10:07 < ThomasEgi> if all you get to do is learning, for like 10 to 20 years
10:07 < ThomasEgi> you get fed up with it
10:07 < ThomasEgi> the educational system simply lacks all balance
10:07 < ThomasEgi> you get no chance to make any use of the knowledge you get
10:08 < ThomasEgi> and the brain naturally wants to get rid of stuff it never needs.
10:11 < ThomasEgi> evolution didn't build men to learn all day long , and do nothing else for many years.
10:12 < Mokbortolan_> I dunno, I never got fed up with learning
10:12 < Mokbortolan_> though, if it were presented as a negative or drudgery, one might get fed up
10:12 < ThomasEgi> hehe. neither do i. but then i vastly ignore the content in school and university
10:13 < ThomasEgi> and focus on what i want to do. and learning stuff that helps me to get the things done that i want to see done. that's a great way to learn
10:13 < Mokbortolan_> I engulfed it, finished my textbooks by the end of the second week, then got in trouble for reading other stuff the rest of the year :p
10:13 < ThomasEgi> hehe
10:14 < Mokbortolan_> reading my biology textbook in english class 'cos I had already finished the english testbook...
10:14 < Mokbortolan_> -s +x
10:14 < ThomasEgi> hm. i am not the book person
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10:14 < ThomasEgi> i hardly read anything other than scientific papers, datasheets, and convos
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10:15 < Mokbortolan_> oh, this was in middle school
10:15 < Mokbortolan_> in elementary school I read literature because the textbooks were boring
10:16 < Mokbortolan_> sort of alienated me socially though
10:16 < Mokbortolan_> probably why they created the "gifted" class
10:17 < ThomasEgi> alienating for the willingness to advance his own abilities is not uncommon
10:19 < Mokbortolan_> I kept moving as a kid though, went through 9 schools
10:19 < Mokbortolan_> being the perennial "new kid" meant that I eventually stopped attempting/caring about trying to fit into the social structures
10:19 < kanzure> http://biospace.ca/
10:19 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Kris Constable <kris@ideawave.ca> wrote:
10:19 < kanzure> My name is Kris, and I'll be visiting from Vancouver island, Canada,
10:19 < kanzure> this week-end. Working with Derek Jacoby, and we'll be launching
10:19 < kanzure> would be great to meet any of you who are interested, as well as check
10:19 < kanzure> out any bio-tech spaces in the area.
10:19 < kanzure> (Also interested in hackerspaces/makerspaces in general). Any must see
10:19 < kanzure> Canada's first bio-tech community lab on DNA day, biospace.ca. It
10:19 < kanzure> venues in the Boston area? Any classes or events happening this week-
10:20 < kanzure> end that might be of interest?
10:22 < kanzure> bah mac's new site.. http://diybioftw.com/
10:23 < kanzure> http://diybioftw.com/post/17185535477/the-story-so-far
10:23 < kanzure> this looks like tumblr
10:23 < kanzure> fuck tumblr
10:23 < kanzure> "Results: Lots of enthusiasm, not so many sales. The conference was mostly attended by world-experts in barcoding who really did not need the process to be simpler. The market we had hypothesized about was not really at the conference. This made sense in retrospect, but we didn’t understand the user community enough to know this in advance"
10:23 < kanzure> "Fast-forward to today: we still are selling our barcoding kit and we have a launched a barcoding service. We believe the service will overcome the technical barriers that may have been reducing interest in genelaser by consumers. But do we have a testable hypothesis?"
10:24 < kanzure> iirc josh is no longer working with mac on that company (seqify/cofactorbio)
10:39 < kanzure> jrayhawk: http://wonder-tonic.com/geocitiesizer/
10:39 < chris_99> strages_work, still need that paper?, just got it
10:40 < kanzure> i like this one: http://wonder-tonic.com/geocitiesizer/images/notepad.gif "site created with notepad THE RIGHT WAY"
10:42 < strages_work> chris_99: yes I do
10:42 < chris_99> strages_work, if you PM your email i'll send it to you
10:42 < strages_work> excellent, thanks
10:53 < ybit> will someone post the paper to r/scholar or link to it?
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10:54 < kanzure> hi ybit
10:54 < katsmeow-afk> [11:38] <ThomasEgi> if so, get car with cisco logo and a coat+hat with the same.
10:54 < katsmeow-afk> [11:39] <ThomasEgi> walk in. make a backup of the server, walk out.
10:54 < katsmeow-afk> ThomasEgi , that actually works, i have a truck with all city logos and stickers except the city name, and everywhere i go i am allowed access where i shouldn't be
10:54 < katsmeow-afk> cops are all too eager to make it even easier for me
10:58 < ybit> hello
10:58 < katsmeow-afk> re: education : i want to know how to (two) use people's (peoples) written grammar (grammer) as a way to (too) limit their (there) income , there's (theyr's) too (to) many rich humans (human's) who (whom) don't (dont) have a clue how to communicate
10:59 < katsmeow-afk> hi ybit
11:00 < ThomasEgi> i dont know the precise reason.. but i feel like punshing something now
11:00 < katsmeow-afk> i know a millionare (inheritance) who doesn't know the diff tween "your" and "you're", and i am living in poverty and percieved as stupid
11:03 < lichen> confusing homonyms is a very specific kind of 'intelligence' and not necessarily an indicator of much beyond specific memory
11:04 < lichen> there was a point (before mass written language really) where spelling was a very personal thing
11:04 < lichen> people spelled out words how it made sense to them and your writing style included your own personal spelling
11:04 < katsmeow-afk> those last two are not a homonyms , they aren't to be pronounced the same way
11:04 < lichen> fits in the same category though
11:05 < lichen> i know ive accidently slipped them up when typing quickly sometimes
11:05 < lichen> not because i dont know which to use but because im ejecting words faster than my subconscious culls mistakes
11:05 < katsmeow-afk> "it's a poor mind that cannot find more than one way to spell a word" , but still, to not know the difference tween one word and another?
11:06 < lichen> yeah
11:06 < lichen> im not saying its not a problem, but just that there are many facets to intelligence and some people dont prioritize spelling and grammar as much as spatial or rational reasoning
11:06 < lichen> but that makes it a lot harder to communicate with them
11:07 < katsmeow-afk> "your" and "you're" aren't homonyms, because much like the contraction of "you are", the ennunciation of the word carries the remanents of the original two words, which are not present in "your"
11:07 < lichen> i'm aware they're seperate
11:07 < katsmeow-afk> ok, this rich person actually equates the two words
11:07 < lichen> but they're still closely pronounced, much like people confusing effect/affect
11:07 < lichen> lol
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11:08 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: i doubt he wrote it
11:08 < kanzure> i think this was fukuyama or whoever
11:08 < kanzure> wait, what are we talking about?
11:08 < katsmeow-afk> and i have run into paid employees of telcom firm who equate "bit" and "byte", saying they are alt spellings/pronunciatons of the same thing
11:08 < lichen> ew
11:08 < lichen> fire them on the spot
11:08 < katsmeow-afk> i would, if i could
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11:09 < lichen> i just had a phone interview with intel this morning
11:09 < katsmeow-afk> kansure, doubt who wrote what?
11:09 < kanzure> lichen: what position?
11:09 < lichen> entry-level graphics engineer in test
11:09 < kanzure> "graphics engineer" means what? gpu?
11:09 < kanzure> so writing unit tests for GPUs?
11:09 < lichen> testing drivers and graphic software on various hardware
11:10 < lichen> making sure it all outputs correctly
11:10 < lichen> and that the SDKs for developers work correctly
11:10 < kanzure> what sdks does intel release anyway
11:10 < kanzure> i mean, for graphics-related things
11:10 < lichen> example code for graphics
11:10 < kanzure> hrm
11:11 < lichen> he said there are two other applicants
11:11  * katsmeow-afk has needed a svga signal for the longest time to keep the monitors from shutting down between times the kvm switches from one computer to the next,, every switch means the monitor goes thru a complete backlighting restrike and auto-adjust cycle
11:11 < lichen> so i wont really know if i get the job for a week
11:12 < kanzure> lichen: assume you will not get it
11:12 < lichen> basically
11:12 < kanzure> i know it sounds harsh but you save yourself a week of not doing anything
11:12 < lichen> i assume nothing
11:12 < lichen> ive got a job right now so im not in a critical situation
11:12 < lichen> but i hate this job
11:12 < kanzure> that's the way to do it :)
11:12 < kanzure> well. without hating it.
11:12 < lichen> so the sooner i can get out the better
11:13 < kanzure> what are you doing anyway?
11:14 < kanzure> i think bkero worked for a while at intel
11:14 < kanzure> bkero: ping
11:14 < lichen> right now i just have a shit warehouse job
11:14 < lichen> so im really just looking to get into the tech industry
11:14 < kanzure> have you ever done an "in test" job before?
11:14 < kanzure> i mean: writing unit tests all day
11:15 < lichen> no
11:15 < lichen> im pretty sure i can handle it though
11:15 < lichen> its not my dream job but its just a contract position
11:15 < lichen> and pays well
11:16 < katsmeow-afk> luv politicians: "and our commitment to seizing new opportunities for cooperation with Pacific neighbors" = "our Manifest Destiny to steal lands and enslave the occupants where ever we can"
11:19 < kanzure> cost per base pair of synthetic dna: http://www.synthesis.cc/assets_c/2011/06/carlson_synthesis_cost_per_base_june_2011-thumb-400x315.png
11:20 < kanzure> "the pace and proliferation of biotechnologies" (2003) http://www.synthesis.cc/writing/Carlson_Pace_and_Prolif.pdf
11:22 < kanzure> http://pathogenomics.bham.ac.uk/blog/2012/02/oxford-nanopore-megaton-announcement-why-do-you-need-a-machine-exclusive-interview-for-this-blog/
11:23 < kanzure> blah it doesn't actually answer the "why do you need a machine"
11:23 < kanzure> (of course, i agree you need a machine, i just figure everyone's explanation to non-biologists sucks)
11:28 < katsmeow-afk> "lotta parts like a really big puzzle that go together only one way"
11:34  * katsmeow-afk is practiced in the use of tiny vocabularies using mostly single syllable words, misuse and mis pronunciation, and twisted meanings of words
11:36 < katsmeow-afk> to travel the interstate = gao day-own the rah-ode
11:37 < katsmeow-afk> bbl
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12:38 < bkero> kanzure: pong
12:38 < bkero> yes I did work at intel for a while
12:44 < kanzure> i see
12:47 < archels> http://my20percent.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/baseball-cap-head-up-displa/
12:49 < kanzure> until you get hit with a baseball
12:49 < kanzure> or am i misinterpreting
12:55 < uniqanomaly> http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Searching-Without-Objectives awesome "Kenneth O. Stanley considers that innovation is stifled when we are strictly following a high goal, and we would progress more when we are inclined to discovery rather than following an objective. "
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13:50 < strangewarp> Oh derp, that's dumb
13:50 < strangewarp> ... Oh, wrong channel
13:50 < strangewarp> whoop!
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14:07 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, even the usda db is nonoptimal, it has both "Garlic, raw" and "Spices, garlic powder", i don't understand, is this like saying an ice cube has different nutritional value than the equal weight of water?
14:09 < katsmeow-afk> or crushing the ice cube changes it's nutritional value?
14:14 < nathaniel> dehydrating and pulverizing does change the nutritional value per gram
14:14 < nathaniel> and possibly removes some water- and oil-soluble contents
14:15 < katsmeow-afk> removing the water leaved the solubles behind, the basis of distilling
14:15 < nathaniel> the first part still applies, though
14:16 < katsmeow-afk> you didn't say why
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14:16 < katsmeow-afk> is a crushed not still ice?
14:16 < nathaniel> water has no nutritional value. so when you take out the water, you're left with more nutritional value per the same amount of mass
14:17 < katsmeow-afk> lol
14:17 < nathaniel> and the pulverization process then changes the density of the garlic
14:17 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, it's generally less dense
14:17 < katsmeow-afk> ok
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14:18 < nathaniel> ice vs. water is a phase change. garlic powderizing is, as you point out, a distillation process. :>
14:20 < katsmeow-afk> i know you mean differently now, but i am still lol over <nathaniel> water has no nutritional value. so when you take out the water, you're left with more nutritional value per the same amount of mass  <<== aka the bottom of the pan the water was in
14:20 < katsmeow-afk> lots of iron
14:21 < nathaniel> lol. I didn't notice the ambiguity
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14:22 < katsmeow-afk> :-)
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15:01 < kanzure> http://inscight.org/2011/05/24/episode-14-accessible-science-with-hacker-space/
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17:20 < fenn> "Machine Learning including a special robotics demonstration from Microsoft"   microsoft unveils the T-800
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17:44 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what do i want for private repos in piny again?
17:44 < kanzure> 0660?
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18:24 < fenn> so a directory is drwxrwsr-x and i'm in the group, shouldn't i be able to make a new file?
18:24 < kanzure> rmrepo seems to ignore deleting iki-reponame
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18:38 < kanzure> audy: i'm in it
18:38 < kanzure> heh
18:38 < audy> kanzure is it any good?
18:38 < audy> kanzure (also you're everywhere)
18:39 < kanzure> it's a nice book i guess
18:39 < kanzure> i recall not having a tremendously bad reaction to it
18:40 < kanzure> i am a little angry that none of us "hackers" have a scanned copy of it yet
18:40 < kanzure> what the hell is wrong with all of us?
18:41 < audy> kanzure you wouldn't download a car
18:41 < thesnark|afk> you wouldn
18:42 < thesnark|afk> erm
18:42 < thesnark|afk> you wouldn't steal a baby
18:42 < thesnark|afk> you wouldn't shoot a police officer
18:42 < thesnark|afk> downloading music is stealing
18:42 < kanzure> you wouldn't rape a baby
18:43 < audy> I ordered it off of Amazon
18:43 < audy> I don't have a scanner
18:43 < thesnark|afk> they sell babies on Amazon?
18:43 < thesnark|afk> awesome
18:43 < audy> thesnark|afk you can lease thousands of them by the minute
18:45 < fenn> er, which book?
18:46 < audy> "Biopunk: DIY Scientists Hack the Software of Life"
18:46 < fenn> radical, dude!!!1
18:46 < kanzure> have you read it fenn
18:46 < fenn> no
18:46 < Mokbortolan_> hah, "biopunk"
18:46 < fenn> books are for proles
18:47 < thesnark|afk> fenn lolololol
18:50 < kanzure> splicer: hey man they're narfing on your terf
18:50 < kanzure> turf
18:52 < Vicarious> hi
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19:12 < kanzure> hi yashgaroth
19:12 < yashgaroth> yo
19:12 < kanzure> you have your full proposal written up yet :x
19:12 < yashgaroth> I have an equipment list with approximate prices, if that's what you're after
19:13 < kanzure> neat
19:13 < kanzure> that sounds useul
19:13 < kanzure> useful :(
19:14 < yashgaroth> physical centrifuges and stuff comes out to about 50k
19:14 < kanzure> i bet you did your math wrong
19:15 < kanzure> let's see it
19:15 < yashgaroth> you want I should DCC it to you?
19:15 < kanzure> no
19:15 < yashgaroth> email? I'm not pasting 50 lines into chat here
19:16 < kanzure> fine, email :|
19:17 < yashgaroth> I mean, I can do it here, just don't know if freenode will kick me for flooding
19:17 < kanzure> i'll upload it somewhere once you email
19:17 < kanzure> it.
19:17 < fenn> http://pastebin.ca/
19:21 < yashgaroth> k, sent
19:21 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/myostatin/yashgaroth-equipment.txt
19:22 < yashgaroth> my tab formatting is crashing down around me
19:22 < kanzure> tabs are pretty evil
19:23 < kanzure> $30k on a centrifuge+hood?
19:23 < yashgaroth> it's not a microfuge, you need a large refrigerated one
19:23 < kanzure> sure.. an ultracentrifuge
19:23 < yashgaroth> not ultra, just large
19:23 < kanzure> aw
19:23 < yashgaroth> maximum g's is like 20,000
19:25 < yashgaroth> actually scripps research has a bunch of ultrafuges that anyone can just use, though you're not supposed to
19:25 < yashgaroth> open access building, fuges and freezers crammed in the hallways, no one keeping an eye on them
19:26 < kanzure> knowing that your electronics knowledge is zero.. i don't think your ultrafuge estimate is correct
19:26 < kanzure> i doubt it would cost more than $4k in parts
19:27 < yashgaroth> I'm not really comfortable with building the only piece of equipment that could easily kill me if it wanted to
19:28 < yashgaroth> most of the cost is rotors, since that shit's hella precision
19:28 < yashgaroth> the motor's easy, but the balance compensators and such, that's out of my realm
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19:36 < fenn> 80krpm for $8k http://www.dotmed.com/listing/centrifuge/beckman/coulter-l8-80m-ultracentrifuge/902633?utm_source=base&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=Base
19:37 < fenn> does this mean they don't come with rotors?
19:37 < yashgaroth> yes it does
19:37 < yashgaroth> that they don't
19:38 < fenn> i'm seeing 50ml rotors for like $5k
19:38 < yashgaroth> fixed or bucket?
19:38 < fenn> fixed
19:39 < yashgaroth> ehhh link?
19:39 < fenn> http://www.labx.com/v2/adsearch/detail3.cfm?adnumb=457364
19:40 < fenn> sorry that might have been confusing, it takes 8x 8ml tubes
19:40 < fenn> i had no idea these things are so expensive
19:41 < yashgaroth> yep, and they get more expensive the bigger they get
19:41 < kanzure> sounds like BS to me?
19:41 < fenn> http://www.amazon.com/Eppendorf-022637207-Fixed-Angle-Centrifuge-Centrifuges/dp/B005GRFSWW
19:41 < fenn> i think that's what you want right?
19:41 < kanzure> is there any actual reason they cost so much
19:41 < fenn> low demand
19:42 < kanzure> ok but i mean.. get a chunk of metal, cut shit up
19:42 < yashgaroth> because when you impart a 20 pound block of metal with enough force to destroy the centrifuge, you want precision
19:42 < fenn> somebody else's money syndrome
19:42 < kanzure> yashgaroth: precision isn't some magical scarce resource
19:42 < yashgaroth> that too, especially considering the rotors don't break
19:43 < fenn> it has to be dynamically balanced, which means finding someone with a balancer to do that
19:44 < fenn> actually that's not true
19:44 < fenn> the technician running the centrifuge can mess up and add whatever amount of liquid to each tube, yet somehow we dont hear about people dying in centrifuge accidents all the time
19:44 < yashgaroth> because they detect imbalances and stop
19:45 < yashgaroth> usually it's people losing feet when they drop a rotor
19:45 < fenn> hehe "Amazon Science Forum: why are people here so scientifically illiterate? 8792 replies"
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19:50 < fenn> i think we should make some lab equipment
19:51 < fenn> shaking incubator = styrofoam box and a motor
19:51 < kanzure> i agree
19:51 < yashgaroth> and temperature control
19:51 < fenn> yashgaroth: why do you need to centrifuge 1L at a time? i assume this is for protein purification?
19:52 < yashgaroth> no, pelleting of bacterial cultures
19:52 < fenn> can't that be done chemically?
19:52 < fenn> flocculation
19:53 < yashgaroth> that leaves a bunch of the cell culture media, even if you do get it to work
19:53 < yashgaroth> which will then fuck up your subsequent steps
19:53 < n_bentha> yeah!
19:54 < n_bentha> you could make a 3d-print of a rotor and housing assembly, right?
19:54 < n_bentha> using cnc and aluminium blocks?
19:54 < fenn> yes.
19:54 < n_bentha> it'd be expensive...but maybe less than 8k?
19:55 < yashgaroth> you can't use aluminum, it sucks
19:55 < kanzure> there are many ways to make this for way less
19:55 < fenn> anyway it boils down to a labor vs equipment tradeoff
19:55 < kanzure> yashgaroth is just being crazy
19:56 < yashgaroth> I wish I had more than pittance of money, I don't wanna have to deal with shit like 'oh the tape holding together my spectrometer came off and now this batch is useless'
19:56 < n_bentha> hahahah
19:57 < n_bentha> that really sux tho if tape is holding you back
19:57 < n_bentha> sorry
19:58 < yashgaroth> figurative tape, but yeah
20:01 < fenn> personally i find most existing commercial lab equipment to be sub optimal
20:02 < fenn> maybe i've just been using out of date technology
20:02 < n_bentha> the new stuff works pretty well imho
20:03 < fenn> seems like an avr and some magic sensor dust would improve usability several orders of magnitude
20:03 < yashgaroth> oh man, moving from a cuvette-based spec to a nanodrop was so awesome
20:03 < bkero> kanzure: yo
20:03 < n_bentha> ugh. i hate cuvettes. cleaning them 1000x is so annoying
20:03 < n_bentha> especially w/ bacteria
20:03 < kanzure> hi bkero
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20:04 < bkero> kanzure: you wanted something the other day?
20:04 < kanzure> nope
20:04 < kanzure> you might be able to bestow intel advice onto lichen
20:04 < bkero> oh
20:04 < bkero> ok
20:04 < bkero> lichen: sup
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20:05  * n_bentha decides to ge some lichen to produce dmt
20:05 < fenn> duude, you could like, make some transgenic mimosa hostilis
20:06 < n_bentha> or just some kick-ass mimosas?
20:07 < n_bentha> my mimosas bring all the girls to the yard
20:07  * n_bentha starts dancing
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20:35 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Dan Wright <djwrister@gmail.com> wrote:
20:35 < kanzure> > Hey Brian,
20:35 < kanzure> > I want to thank you for sending out the info on Hacking Medicine at MIT.
20:35 < kanzure> >  I attended on behalf of LABioHackers. It was quite illuminating.
20:35 < kanzure> er.. biohackers.la knows me pretty well.. i wonder why dan doesn't think he knows me already
20:36 < kanzure> so confused
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21:06  * ybit is wondering if it's worth his time to attend: http://mullai.uah.edu/~ravindra/SEAS2012.html
21:08 < ybit> i'm thinking yes... but i don't care for paying $60
21:08 < Steel2> ybit, are you a mathemetician?
21:09 < ybit> Steel2: nope, just a curious netizen
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21:10 < Steel2> any other up and coming musicians in here besides strangewarp?
21:10 < ybit> i refuse to link to my music dedicated to the drunken rabbit god
21:10 < Steel2> hah
21:12 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_mythology
21:12 < ybit> gn all
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21:21 < kanzure> http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/54525-do-it-yourself-biotech/
21:26 < kanzure> "Recommended online education sources were: GetHub, Instructables, and Hack A Day"
21:26 < kanzure> oh dear.. i am afraid ben hyink doesn't know about github
21:26 < kanzure> or he considers it educational
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21:30 < lichen> someone asked for me?
21:32 < lichen> bkero: hey
21:32 < bkero> lichen: howdy
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21:33 < lichen> yeah im in the midst of applying to intel
21:33 < lichen> they want a second phone interview
21:33 < bkero> oregon?
21:33 < lichen> yeah
21:34 < lichen> pretty simple position
21:35 < bkero> ok
21:35 < bkero> I'm in Oregon
21:35 < bkero> I interned ther
21:35 < bkero> there
21:35 < bkero> what dept?
21:35 < lichen> yeah?
21:35 < lichen> i'd be a junior graphics software engineer in test
21:35 < lichen> making sure the software samples they supply to developers are correct
21:36 < lichen> and that everything ports from maya/3ds max correctly
21:36 < bkero> ok
21:38 < lichen> what did you do there
21:38 < bkero> unix server operations
21:38 < lichen> ah
21:39 < bkero> Well good luck in the interview sir
21:39 < lichen> ma'am
21:40 < lichen> first interview went okay, but i had trouble recalling some matrix math (its been like two years since i took linear)
21:40 < lichen> apparently they didnt care that much if they want a second interview
21:40 < kanzure> why the fuck would you need matrix math for unit testing
21:40 < kanzure> and even if you do, why wouldn't you look it up?
21:40 < lichen> its in graphics
21:40 < kanzure> so? :)
21:40 < lichen> yeah i know he didnt seem to care much
21:40 < lichen> i knew what he was talking about though and i guess that was enough
21:41 < kanzure> if they need to hire someone to test basic matrix math libraries, they are in more trouble than you know
21:41 < lichen> kind of disappointed in my memory though that i didnt remember how to make a scalar matrix
21:41 < lichen> (when its just an identity matrix multiplied by a scalar)
21:41 < lichen> yeah im aware
21:41 < lichen> its not about what i need to implement but to make sure im capable
21:43 < lichen> at least he didnt ask me any brain teaser programming problems
21:43 < lichen> which usually amounts to 'how many algos have you memorized?'
21:45 < lichen> hey bkero whats the office culture there like
21:46 < bkero> lichen: more boring than you could possibly imagine
21:46 < lichen> hahaha
21:46 < bkero> srs
21:46 < lichen> yeah... not really surprising
21:46 < lichen> im just trying to break into the industry
21:46 < lichen> job i'm looking at is 6 to 18 months contract
21:47 < lichen> do they expect business causal?
21:55 < kanzure> uh
21:55 < kanzure> do any of you have a pile of app ideas
21:55 < kanzure> for mobile?
21:56 < lichen> ?
21:56 < kanzure> i have this team of programmers
21:56 < kanzure> and uh, my list is dry
21:56 < Steel2> what sort of programmers and what sort of app ideas?
21:56 < kanzure> win 6
21:56 < kanzure> ioasdkjfka
21:56 < lichen> thats unusual
21:56 < Steel2> games?
21:56 < kanzure> Steel2: mobile, mobile games
21:56 < Steel2> sure, I have one at least
21:56 < lichen> programmers usually have way, way more ideas than time to implement
21:56 < kanzure> Steel2: let's hear it
21:56 < kanzure> lichen: i have tons of ideas, just not for mobile :)
21:57 < kanzure> i especially want to hear any transhumanist-related ideas
21:57 < lichen> ive got a huge one
21:57 < kanzure> oh, what about hplusvideos for mobile
21:57 < Steel2> zombie tower defense, pulls streets off of google maps, defend actual locations, have 'leaderboards' for major places (ie new york times square), you get 'reinforcements' as your points
21:57 < kanzure> how about Google Street View Fighter
21:58 < Steel2> tower defense is more popular on mobile afaik
21:59 < kanzure> lichen: what's the idea?
22:00 < lichen> im still trying to plan out the structure of it all
22:00 < bkero> lichen: for an interview, yes
22:00 < lichen> bkero: they havent asked for an in-person interview yet
22:00 < Steel2> kanzure: universal unit converter
22:00 < Steel2> can't really make money on that
22:00 < lichen> but i meant just regular work attire
22:00 < lichen> 'business casual' for women is confusing and annoying
22:01 < Steel2> lichen: slacks and a neutral blouse
22:01 < bkero> just wear a button up shirt and some not shitty pants
22:01 < Steel2> alternately pants part of a pantsuit + blouse
22:01 < bkero> or blouse
22:01 < lichen> kanzure: but the simple description is a way to tie together all of your devices into one personal cloud dropbox-style, with an api to make it easy to make programs work across it (automating the networked threading)
22:01 < bkero> After the interview you can wear shorts and sandals
22:02 < Steel2> ooh, what about a pre-configured academic rss feed reader?
22:02 < lichen> alright cool
22:02 < kanzure> lichen: how about using dropbox? wtf
22:02 < lichen> not for files
22:02 < lichen> for hardware
22:02 < kanzure> Steel2: doesn't have to make money
22:02 < Steel2> ah, k
22:03 < kanzure> lichen: wait, you're female?
22:03 < lichen> you didnt know that?
22:03 < Steel2> something that pulled data from all the major universities department pages, possibly sorted into research vs administrative announcements
22:03 < kanzure> lichen: nobody on the interwebs is female
22:03 < kanzure> and even if you are, you lie
22:03 < lichen> especially in the h+ scene, amirite?
22:03 < Steel2> Molybdenum is female :P
22:03 < kanzure> what
22:03 < Steel2> when she's in here
22:03 < kanzure> what the fuck?
22:03 < kanzure> lies
22:03 < Steel2> nope
22:04 < kanzure> Steel2: pull what data from universities? hm?
22:04 < Steel2> granted, gender should be irrelevant, aside from the rampant misogyny a lot of nerds put forth...
22:04 < kanzure> i think it might be cool to keep track of professors at universities, by scraping their sites
22:04 < lichen> yeah im kind of afraid to go into a CS job
22:04 < lichen> because theyre notorious for that
22:04 < Steel2> http://meche.mit.edu/news/mechenews/ like this
22:04 < kanzure> lichen: just remember, as a female you can demand more pay
22:05 < katsmeow-afk> heh
22:05 < kanzure> "Because i'm so rare, blah blah blah"
22:05 < lichen> im not getting into a debate about reverse sexism
22:05 < kanzure> well, that's not how you argue or it
22:05 < Steel2> yes, and katsmeow is female
22:05 < kanzure> katsmeow is *allegedly* female
22:05 < kanzure> and so is lichen/molybdenio
22:05 < Steel2> it's her preferred pronoun
22:05 < Steel2> that's good enough for me
22:05 < kanzure> oh well
22:05 < kanzure> ok... but really
22:05 < kanzure> app ideas.
22:06 < katsmeow-afk> not gonna have sex with you to prove it
22:06 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: i don't think that's appropriate
22:06 < katsmeow-afk> whew
22:06 < Steel2> what about pulling automatic emergency numbers for your area based on GPS?
22:06 < Steel2> as well as possible situational buttons ('Lawyer')
22:06 < kanzure> gps provides emergency numbers?
22:07 < kanzure> or do you mean a lookup service?
22:07 < lichen> thats where the coding comes in
22:07 < Steel2> no, but if there's a way to automatically look up numbers
22:07 < Steel2> based on where you are
22:07 < kanzure> maybe i should just force them to work on web apps
22:08 < Steel2> figure out a protein folding equivalent game
22:08 < Steel2> one of those giant pain in the ass problems
22:08 < Steel2> gamify it
22:08 < lichen> protein folding on phones sounds really slow
22:08 < Steel2> he said web apps
22:08 < Steel2> lol
22:09 < lichen> if you feel like fronting the cluster to host that, sure
22:09 < Steel2> heh, he asked for ideas, not implementation
22:09 < lichen> though i guess crowdsourcing the brains stops you from needing that
22:12 < kanzure> copying a pre-existing app is also doable
22:12 < lichen> but mostly pointless
22:12 < kanzure> *shrug* not really
22:14 < Steel2> doing it better is another way
22:15 < lichen> ^
22:16 < Steel2> one click contact sync for android--something to make it save to my phone, google contacts AND my SIM card all at once
22:18 < kanzure> http://gameloft.com/
22:18 < kanzure> all of these things are possible
22:18 < kanzure> gps + phone numbers just sounds lame in comparison
22:18 < Steel2> lame is often useful
22:18 < kanzure> http://www.gameloft.com/download-games/all-games/most-recent/
22:19 < Steel2> what has your team made previously?
22:19 < kanzure> Steel2: pm
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23:10 < kanzure> 23:06 < jrayhawk> oh, right, you need to relogin in order to get the new gids
23:10 < kanzure> fenn: solved.. i guess
23:10 < jrayhawk> i blame unix
23:10 < kanzure> i blame you
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23:11 < kanzure> i enjoy blaming you for things
23:11 < jrayhawk> thankfully, a well established hierarchy of blame results in a widespread distribution of blame everyone can avoid responsibility
23:19 < Steel3> hmm
23:19 < Steel3> kanzure, what about an automatic ochem app?
23:19 < kanzure> automatic.. ochem?
23:20 < Steel3> yeah, sort of like a specialized app--have it name chemicals based on structures or give structures based on names
23:21 < kanzure> structure drawing would be nice
23:22 < Steel3> I'm just thinking of annoying problems people run into in STEM
23:22 < kanzure> "no money"
23:22 < Steel3> I meant during problem solving
23:23 < kanzure> ... no money?
23:23 < kanzure> hm
23:28 < Steel3> if you were doing web apps I'd say find an industry that has insufficiently user friendly BSEEs written for it
23:28 < kanzure> BSEEs?
23:28 < Steel3> broad spectrum expert systems
23:29 < Steel3> for instance, I wonder what would happen if you fed katsmeow's pseudo-AI a law library
23:29 < kanzure> AI?
23:29 < kanzure> oh geeze
23:29 < katsmeow-afk> it may die
23:30 < katsmeow-afk> if the dogs here have taught me anythng about law, it's that it doesn't matter, the courts and DA's office will do what they wish
23:30 < Steel3> eh, that's local/when people have specific interests
23:30 < Steel3> but in corporation vs corporation fights, the one with the better natural language AI wins I think
23:30 < katsmeow-afk> has that been done yet?
23:31 < Steel3> not yet
23:31 < Steel3> but they hooked up Watson to parallel Citigroup's wall street risk analytics division
23:31 < Steel3> so it's only a matter of time
23:31 < katsmeow-afk> here's a current example of illogic in humans:
23:31 < katsmeow-afk> 10Pcs 1W Cool White High Power Led Lamp Beads  16 Bids $7.11
23:31 < katsmeow-afk> 10 PCS 1W High Power Led Lamp Beads Cool White  Buy It Now $4.18
23:31 < Steel3> IBM get 5-10% of the profits
23:32 < katsmeow-afk> how will 16 humans bid up the price of the item to $7.11, when the buy-now price is only $4.18?
23:33 < Steel3> asymmetric/inefficiently displayed information
23:33 < yashgaroth> shipping costs
23:33 < Steel3> it's in ebay's best interests to not display the best deal to you
23:33 < katsmeow-afk> shipping is free on both items, both items in same city
23:34 < yashgaroth> relative rating history of sellers
23:34 < Steel3> easily gamed
23:35 < katsmeow-afk> it's the same seller
23:35 < yashgaroth> well shit I'm out of ideas then
23:36 < katsmeow-afk> ebay numbers 110844924690  and 110844431913
23:36 < katsmeow-afk> it's even the same pic on both auctions
23:37 < katsmeow-afk> err, the auction  and the buy-now
23:37 < yashgaroth> haha the estimated delivery on the cheaper ones is even earlier too
23:38 < katsmeow-afk> so see, i have little hope you can bet on an Ai to win in court, because humans are involved
23:42 < Steel3> no, you don't have to have the AI be the lawyer
23:42 < Steel3> you have the AI feed the lawyer his case
23:42 < Steel3> I mean, every lawyer is backed by a huge case-law team
23:42 < Steel3> for high profile cases
23:43 < katsmeow-afk> ah, then maybe yeas, especially if you can make a devious underhanded Ai
23:43 < Steel3> have the lawyer do the underhanded part
23:44 < Steel3> have the AI be the thing that combs through the entirety of both common and formal law since the magna carta :P
23:44 < katsmeow-afk> i figured that's what yo meant
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 21 00:00:00 2012