--- Log opened Wed Mar 21 00:00:00 2012 00:43 -!- rkos [~chatzilla@a88-113-156-174.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:57 -!- A-Lusion [~A-Lusion@pool-173-79-31-144.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:07 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@78.8.211.250] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:10 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-78-8-212-98.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16 < archels> http://www.amazon.com/Metabolic-Molecular-Bases-Inherited-Disease/dp/0079130356 01:16 < archels> $721 for a genetics textbook? 01:17 < archels> It's pretty huge, but still... 01:48 < fenn> Steel3: something like that chemistry app exists, it's called oscar http://stark-fire-6273.herokuapp.com/chemoinformatics/new 01:49 < fenn> er, click browse 01:51 < fenn> more about oscar http://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2011/11/25/the-scandal-of-publisher-forbidden-textmining-the-vision-denied/ 02:17 < joshcryer> not sure if real http://www.humanbirdwings.net/ 02:17 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:22 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-1f.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:22 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-1f.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:22 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:25 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [] 02:27 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:52 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:09 < Replop> archels: and extracting information from it would be far slower than from a database with the same content 03:10 < Replop> and carrying an usb thumb drive is far easier than 4 huge vollumes totalling 6338  pages. 03:12 < ThomasEgi> besides. you can also stuff entire wikipedia on thet usb-thumb drive, and a copy if LotR and you still have enough space for a few of you fav songs 03:12 < Replop> http://www.ommbid.com/ << same title. but I doubt they propose a downloadable offline version. 03:13 < ThomasEgi> how about a recursive wget on that? 03:13 < Replop> would only get abstracts. 03:13 < Replop> full texts are hidden behind paywalls 03:14 * ThomasEgi hates paywalls :( 03:14 < Replop> and they don't even display the price before asking for personal information 03:15 < Replop> oh. I was wrong 03:15 < Replop> http://www.ommbid.com/OMMBID/a/ommbidrate 03:15 < Replop>  $295 for full access 03:15 < Replop> far cheaper than the paper version, then 03:16 < ThomasEgi> hm. if someone has access to it, running a small python script that makes your browser go over the individual pages found in the table of content, and saving it to disk wouldnt be too hard 03:17 < Replop> just make the script tweak the pages so they would be nicely browsable offline. 03:17 < Replop> relative links and such 03:19 -!- lichen [~lichen@76.105.164.184] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19 < ThomasEgi> once you have the actual content. that's not much of a problem at all 03:19 < Replop> yes 03:20 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [] 03:20 < ThomasEgi> matter of running a single replace() on each html page 03:22 -!- Juul [~Juul@slim.dhcp.lbl.gov] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:31 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:47 < Replop> but of course, uploading the result for the rest of the community would be highly illegal :/ 04:04 < ThomasEgi> at least you could carry it arround on your thumbdrive... 04:04 < ThomasEgi> losing that drive, wouldbe... an ... unfortunate loss 04:12 -!- thesnark [~thesnark@unaffiliated/thesnark] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:35 < Urchin> I think we're going to lose peer review in a not too distant future 04:52 -!- Steel3 [43f624a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.246.36.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:06 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:29 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:30 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:31 -!- {-[n][E[j]-}o-O is now known as jennicide 06:32 < kanzure> evidence that the finger-magnet community is more of an offshoot of BMEzine than transhumanism: 06:32 < kanzure> http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-modification 06:35 < vrs> "more than" why think in those terms? 06:36 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:38 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:41 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parah@adsl-69-151-198-222.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:44 < kanzure> hi ParahSailin_ 06:44 < ParahSailin_> hi 06:45 < ParahSailin_> fucking carpal tunnel 06:46 < kanzure> being 20, i am invincible and do not experience such problems 06:47 < ParahSailin_> i normally dont either 06:47 < ParahSailin_> but the gf is a biter 06:47 < ParahSailin_> and i think she did some nerve damage 06:48 < thesnark> kanzure you're only 20? nice 06:51 < strangewarp> jegus, I've got to work harder 06:52 < strangewarp> I'm almost 25 and still putting together my first major thing :P 06:53 < thesnark> strangewarp best to always work your hardest 06:58 < strangewarp> I'm on the nootropics and they definitely help 06:59 < kanzure> strangewarp: rule 1 of ##hplusroadmap is, i'm gonna beat the snot outta ya 06:59 < kanzure> 25 is the new 50 07:00 < strangewarp> goddamnit 07:00 < kanzure> i'm just being a jerk 07:01 < thesnark> shit, except that 25 really is the new 50 07:01 < thesnark> I have have 2 years, 2 months ;__; 07:01 < kanzure> 25? isn't that the time when most SV programmers retire? 07:01 < thesnark> haha 07:02 < thesnark> seems like it 07:14 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:18 < Coornail> 25? 07:18 < Coornail> I have to work harder then 07:18 < Coornail> I wan't to retire 07:19 < Coornail> I had enough of this mess some call software development... 07:19 < thesnark> oh come on 07:19 < thesnark> you get a sick pleasure from it 07:19 < thesnark> admit it 07:19 < Coornail> I kinda do... 07:20 < Coornail> I would like to retire though 07:20 < thesnark> I think what you mean is that you'd like to focus only on stuff you find interesting 07:21 < kanzure> thesnark: i think i broke protocol-online.org 07:21 < Coornail> isn't it what "retiring" means? 07:22 < thesnark> nice kanzure 07:22 < thesnark> that looks so ripe for scraping 07:22 < thesnark> Coornail well, if that's your definition of retiring you can start whenever you want 07:22 < kanzure> thesnark: wait, does it load? 07:22 < thesnark> yeah 07:23 < kanzure> hahah 07:23 < thesnark> they probably blocked you 07:23 < kanzure> he's blocking me 07:23 < kanzure> what a cockblocker 07:23 < thesnark> this is why we need our distributed scraping darknet 07:23 < thesnark> I could have shared the load ;) 07:23 < kanzure> welll 07:23 < kanzure> i found this huge hole on the server i think 07:23 < kanzure> where if you scrape a particular page, 07:23 < kanzure> it sends out emails to 20,000 users 07:23 < thesnark> bahahaha 07:23 < kanzure> and each email takes 30 seconds to generate 07:23 < thesnark> hahaha 07:23 < thesnark> that is awesome 07:24 < Coornail> somebody there will really wish he/she could retire =) 07:24 < kanzure> thesnark: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/protocol-online/protocol_scraper.py 07:25 < thesnark> kanzure nice yeah BeautifulSoup is good 07:26 < thesnark> you should throttle your scraping though 07:26 < kanzure> NEVER. 07:26 < kanzure> thesnark: btw 07:26 < kanzure> a distributed scraper throttler that works on top of the 'requests' library would be very easy 07:26 < kanzure> like a drop-in replacement 07:26 < kanzure> i guess you would have to use some async library like twisted though 07:26 < katsmeow-afk> that's a *lot* of code for such a simple task 07:27 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: i wanted to parse the data 07:28 * thesnark must go to class 07:29 -!- thesnark is now known as thesnark|afk 07:29 < katsmeow-afk> prolly enough data linked thru there to keep everyone's dsl in here busy for a month 07:29 < thesnark|afk> one thing before I go, my local ISP just started offering 110MBps connections 07:29 < thesnark|afk> totally contemplating it 07:30 < katsmeow-afk> some of my mining has kept running for 7 months, at 2 hits per second, lot of garbage urls tho, it wasn't all good 07:30 < katsmeow-afk> thesnark|afk, you cannot hit most pages any faster than slow dsl, or they'll throttle you 07:30 < ParahSailin_> thiel didnt do shit until he was like 28 07:31 < ParahSailin_> so dont feel bad 07:31 < thesnark|afk> katsmeow if I can't go depth first I'll go breadth first 07:31 < thesnark|afk> many sites at once 07:32 < katsmeow-afk> agreed 07:32 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: thiel is not a good role model :P 07:32 < thesnark|afk> time to go away for real now 07:33 < katsmeow-afk> have funs 07:47 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:20 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:51 < Mokbortolan_> http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2011/03/gut_bacteria_may_influence_thoughts_and_behaviour.php 08:51 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i hear that you are female 08:51 < kanzure> can you confirm/deny? 08:51 < Mokbortolan_> That's an interesting rumor 08:51 < kanzure> yes i thought so too 08:51 < Mokbortolan_> I am decidedly "cis-male" 08:52 < kanzure> ahuh 08:52 < kanzure> my source is bad :) 08:52 * Mokbortolan_ strokes his neckbeard. 08:52 < Mokbortolan_> I am intrigued, however, as to the source of this 08:52 < kanzure> steel3| 08:52 < Mokbortolan_> Hah! 08:52 < Mokbortolan_> Maybe he's got me confused with the lady who runs MyModafinil.com 08:53 < Mokbortolan_> Steel2: Explain yourself sirrah! 08:54 < Mokbortolan_> I'm not offended though, women can be wonderful people 08:55 < Mokbortolan_> why, if I were a woman I'd marry me immediately 08:56 < Mokbortolan_> not sure how the wife would react, but I'm sure that would sort itself out over time 08:58 < Mokbortolan_> I'd have to lose some weight, and do something with my hair, however 08:59 < Mokbortolan_> And not be so argumentative. Crimony woman, it's like living with the captain of the Asperger's Society Debate Team! 09:00 < d3nd3> loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool +1 09:00 < phryk> What's the "cis" in "cis-male" stand for? o_O 09:00 < Mokbortolan_> it's a silly convention I recently learned of 09:01 < Mokbortolan_> basically, it means that one is "gender normative" 09:01 < Mokbortolan_> so I'm male in the Ernest Hemingway tradition, as opposed to the Herbert Hoover tradition. 09:02 < phryk> "gender normative" meaning being heterosexual and not into bdsm? 09:02 < Mokbortolan_> it's more about identifying with your gender 09:02 < Mokbortolan_> "a man in a man's body", so to speak 09:02 < phryk> Ah. 09:02 < Mokbortolan_> err, not herbert hoover 09:03 < Mokbortolan_> sorry Herbert 09:03 < Mokbortolan_> I meant J. Edgar Hoover 09:03 < phryk> Now I'm wondering if I'm cis-male…^^ 09:03 < Mokbortolan_> you know, cis/trans? 09:03 < Mokbortolan_> chemistry term 09:03 < phryk> I don't really give a damn about gender… I feel okay being male, but I think I'd feel okay as woman, too… 09:04 < phryk> No, sorry. 09:05 < Mokbortolan_> you should watch this great movie, "trans-america" 09:06 < kanzure> he means "manly man" 09:07 < Mokbortolan_> oh sure, if you don't want to use vague and confusing terminology 09:16 -!- thesnark|afk is now known as thesnark 09:16 < thesnark> people overcomplicate sexuality so much 09:16 < thesnark> find a person, pleasure each other's organs until both have orgasmed 09:16 < thesnark> the end 09:16 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-97-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:23 < Mokbortolan_> Abandon All Culture, Ye Who Enter Here 09:29 < rkos> all hail the numbers 09:30 < delinquentme> all hail nombers 09:32 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-53.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:32 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-53.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:32 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:40 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:09 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:43 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:53 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-97-37.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:46 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.156] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:59 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07 < ybit> 21:26 < kanzure> "Recommended online education sources were: GetHub, Instructables, and Hack A Day" 12:07 < kanzure> it was from chicago opensci's group meeting notes 12:07 < ybit> at least he's taking note of version control 12:31 < kanzure> https://jrvarma.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/the-sec-and-the-python/ 12:32 < kanzure> http://www.itworld.com/government/105031/will-wall-street-require-python 12:33 < kanzure> "We are proposing to require that most ABS issuers file a computer program that gives effect to the flow of funds, or “waterfall,” provisions of the transaction. We are proposing that the computer program be filed on EDGAR in the form of downloadable source code in Python. … (page 205)" 12:33 < kanzure> "Under the proposed requirement, the filed source code, when downloaded and run by an investor, must provide the user with the ability to programmatically input the user’s own assumptions regarding the future performance and cash flows from the pool assets, " 12:33 < kanzure> "ncluding but not limited to assumptions about future interest rates, default rates, prepayment speeds, loss-given-default rates, and any other necessary assumptions … (page 210)" 12:33 < kanzure> "The waterfall computer program must also allow the use of the proposed asset-level data file that will be filed at the time of the offering and on a periodic basis thereafter. (page 211)" 12:37 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:49 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.156] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:07 -!- kvltist [~Kvltist@p5B33EBBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:11 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:30 < jrayhawk> http://jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-7/ hooray, he's become more coherent 13:36 < kanzure> artisan's asylum looks ok 13:36 < kanzure> http://artisansasylum.com/?page_id=18 13:36 < kanzure> but it's a little strange that they don't have things like.. a laser cutter. 13:37 < kanzure> apparently this is one of the boston dynamics guys 13:38 -!- uniqanomaly_ is now known as uniqanomaly 14:08 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:13 -!- thesnark is now known as thesnark|afk 14:24 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:34 < kanzure> bacterial radio thing 14:34 < kanzure> http://www.biofaction.com/synth-ethic/?p=44 14:35 < kanzure> "Bacterial Radio exhibits several bacterially-grown platinum/germanium electrical circuits (crystal radios) on glass substrates. Joe Davis, in collaboration with Ido Bachelet and Tara Gianoulis from Harvard Medical School in Boston," 14:35 < kanzure> "used bacteria altered with variants of a gene from orange marine puffball sponges (Tethya aurantia) to plate electronic circuits on Petri dishes and microscope slides." 14:35 < kanzure> "This gene codes for a protein – silicatein – that normally forms Tethya aurantia’s glass skeleton, its tiny, glass, needle-like spicules composed of silicon and oxygen. Variants of this gene have now been optimized to plate metallic conductors and semiconductors including germanium, titanium dioxide, platinum and other materials." 14:35 < kanzure> "Here, genetically-modified bacteria are embedded in non-conductive materials containing metal salts, and then optically induced to plate specific, electrically conductive circuits." 14:35 < kanzure> "These Bacterial Radios on display are connected to high impedance telephone headsets, antennae and ground, so that visitors may use them to actually listen to AM radio broadcasts." 14:37 -!- Steel3 [43f624a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.246.36.165] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:37 < AdrianG> lol 14:38 < Steel3> ? 14:39 < Mokbortolan_> Steel3: I heard you were a girl! 14:39 < Steel3> Wat. 14:39 < Steel3> no, lichen and molybdenum are the girls 14:39 -!- nchaimov [~nchaimov@c-67-171-214-94.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:39 < Mokbortolan_> no no no 14:40 < Mokbortolan_> I meant, "were" a girl 14:40 < Mariu> I got CPUs of steel 14:40 < AdrianG> kanzure: can u control those bacteria via radio? 14:41 < Steel3> wat. 14:41 < Steel3> someone said I'm transgender? 14:41 < Mokbortolan_> :p 14:41 < Steel3> lmaoing. 14:41 < Mokbortolan_> j/k, who told you I was of the feminine persuasion? 14:43 < Steel3> I didn't say anything about you being feminine 14:43 < Steel3> ? 14:43 < Steel3> I said molybdenum not mokbortalon 14:44 < kanzure> uhuh 14:44 < kanzure> still sounds just as unlikely 14:45 -!- Juul [~Juul@slim.dhcp.lbl.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45 < Steel3> what's the point of being skeptical about this? 14:46 < Steel3> I mean, shit, I have moly on facebook. But why not address someone with their preferred pronoun? 14:46 < kanzure> i have nothing against pronouns 14:47 < kanzure> it's just unlikely 14:47 < Mokbortolan_> yeah 14:47 < kanzure> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and such 14:47 < Mokbortolan_> everybody knows there are no girls on the internet 14:47 < kanzure> yep 14:47 < Mokbortolan_> only pictures of them 14:47 < Steel3> but this isn't really an extraordinary claim to give someone shit over 14:47 < kanzure> i'm not giving youshit o.o 14:47 < Mokbortolan_> I am, but it's all in good fun 14:47 < Steel3> not me, I'm a dude 14:47 < Steel3> whatever, I can take it 14:48 < Steel3> however, the culture of proof or gtfo (with regards to something is irritatingly pointless as gender) isn't the most welcoming 14:48 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:49 < kanzure> i never said gtfo for this reason 14:49 < Steel3> apologies, hyperbole. 14:49 -!- nchaimov [~nchaimov@c-67-171-214-94.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:51 -!- Mo|ybdenum [kvirc@173-30-241-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:54 -!- nchaimov [~nchaimov@c-67-171-214-94.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:56 < Replop> so before acquiring balls of Steel , there were boobs of Steel ? I see .... 14:56 < Mo|ybdenum> what? 14:56 < Mo|ybdenum> Steel's uh...always... been a dude. 14:56 < Steel3> rumors, jokes, etc. apparently abounding 14:57 < Replop> not according to Mokbortolan_ 14:57 < Steel3> Mokbortolan_'s a cock :P 14:57 < strangewarp> Pretty sure I would prefer to have no gender at all, once I can. 14:58 < Mo|ybdenum> Everyone loves to think I'm a dude so meh. 14:58 < Replop> strangewarp: so you would give up the possibiliy of sex as a recreational activity ? 14:58 < katsmeow-afk> no gender or no sex? you cannot choose gender, i think, but you can surgically reassign sex 14:59 < strangewarp> Replop: Yes. I already get grossed out by the idea of any kind of sex, so it's no big thing 14:59 < jrayhawk> gender identity appears to be epigenetic, so we'll probably be able to modify it eventually 14:59 < katsmeow-afk> societies pretty demand you fit some form of gender, regardless of your sex 14:59 < Replop> or go the Snails way and become hermaphrodite; so people that want to reasign their sex won't need surgery anymore 14:59 < strangewarp> No gender, no sex, no sex drive, etc. 14:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk: gender modification tech is shockingly primitive 14:59 < kanzure> or i guess advanced compared to the other boneheaded medicine we have 15:00 < katsmeow-afk> intersexed (hermaphrodite) is also a pretty broad term, iirc there's 16 variations 15:00 < jrayhawk> well, genetic methylation is a fairly recent discovery; i think we should give medicine some time 15:01 < katsmeow-afk> considering some women take testosterone to increase sex drive, but don't become male or men, i dunno how you'd change genders, even if you did chage their sex 15:01 < Mo|ybdenum> SRS for male to female is fairly well off, but female to male is still extrememly rudementary. 15:01 -!- srangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:01 < jrayhawk> and i suppose gender identity is a political landmine, so research will lag for a while on it 15:01 < Mo|ybdenum> rudimentary? spelling. 15:02 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:02 -!- srangewarp is now known as strangewarp 15:02 < katsmeow-afk> rudimentary, check, correct 15:03 < Mo|ybdenum> yes but gender is the mental construct so hormones wouldn't nessecarily effect that. 15:03 < katsmeow-afk> i believe that is correct 15:04 < katsmeow-afk> even applying the wrong hormones prenatally has been shown to cause transsexualism, not transgenderism, in humans 15:04 < ThomasEgi> hm. hormones could affect mentality too. 15:04 < katsmeow-afk> they can affect agression, but not which sex you want to have sex with 15:05 < ThomasEgi> not so sure. 15:05 < Mo|ybdenum> Hasn't it been shown in cases where hormones effected gender predilections the person already had leanings towards those things to begin with. 15:05 < katsmeow-afk> yeas 15:05 < ThomasEgi> difficult subject i guess. with mand influences overlapping each other. i would like to pretend all combinations are possible 15:06 < ThomasEgi> as there is no way to definetly rule out one or the other 15:07 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07 < katsmeow-afk> human experimentation of tis type is frowned on 15:07 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:08 < Mo|ybdenum> even if it wasn't you still have societal mores/norms to contend with 15:09 < katsmeow-afk> society would frown on it 15:09 < Mo|ybdenum> at least in america you have the whole religious right and their insanity. 15:10 < Mo|ybdenum> not even going into cultural hold overs of "manly men" and "fragile women" 15:10 < kanzure> i regret bringing this up 15:10 < katsmeow-afk> many societies are onordinately preoccupied with another's gender, and even persoanlly involed id-wise if there's any attraction involved in any way 15:10 < Mo|ybdenum> exactly. 15:10 < Mo|ybdenum> which is kind of bizarre when you think about it. 15:10 < katsmeow-afk> very 15:11 < Mo|ybdenum> i'm sure there is some psychological reason for that 15:11 < ThomasEgi> societly is bizarre an many aspects. especially since it blocks new creative and potentially more productive ways of thinking 15:12 < Mo|ybdenum> some of that can be blamed on religion, but not all of it. 15:12 < ThomasEgi> hehe.. but all of it can be blamed on the humans^^ 15:12 < katsmeow-afk> conceit, i imagine,, figuring if anything oes wrong it's either "they did something wrong to me" or "i was stupid enough to be suckered" 15:13 < katsmeow-afk> and it may not be factual, only percieved 15:13 < Mo|ybdenum> Yep, it is definently all humans' fault, it's just that often times the preconcieved notions are based on ' (holy text here) says it's wrong" 15:13 < katsmeow-afk> even if only percived by others: "i don't care, but others will make fun of me, so i haveto protect my honor" 15:15 < Mo|ybdenum> exclusion is a powerful thing. 15:15 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, growing up on a farm and seeing cows, rabbits, birds, dogs, cats, yoou name it, having same-sex fun, and then sunday hearing the priest saying only human are gay and because of "the devil", religion is lying 15:17 < Mo|ybdenum> Yeah it's gonna be a while before that really gets thru to alot of people. 15:18 < katsmeow-afk> 2000 yrs, ithasn't happened yet, too many people have a need to be followers 15:18 < ThomasEgi> the "devil" is pretty much the weirdest concept i encoutered in human argumentation. usualy used to prevent other people from doing things you dont like. 15:19 < katsmeow-afk> nah, the dicotomy is common in many thing, opposing forces all over the place 15:19 < Mo|ybdenum> "You're gonna go to hell!" is another one. 15:20 < katsmeow-afk> it's the whole bit about a potential ruler of a country claiming he has the strongest belief in his imaginary friends, and the most willingness to do as his preacher tells him to do, that scares me 15:21 < ThomasEgi> reminds me of that one definition of holy-wars. "the fight between grown up men about who has the coolest imaginary friend" 15:21 < katsmeow-afk> in many ways, the usa is the xtain version of Iran or Pakistan 15:21 < katsmeow-afk> yep 15:21 < strangewarp> katsmeow-afk: That's actually pretty true. Both the US and Iran had their quietist religious fundamentalists activated as political groups in the 1970s. 15:21 < kanzure> wut? 15:21 < kanzure> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Eric Mossotti wrote: 15:21 < kanzure> > The Venus Project needs experienced people to volunteer some time, 15:21 < kanzure> > regarding possibly transitioning into the Open Community.. 15:21 < kanzure> > 15:21 < kanzure> > www.thevenusproject.com 15:22 < kanzure> > www.tvpactivism.com 15:22 < kanzure> > 15:22 < kanzure> > I have been discussing this in a thread (link below), and am to the point 15:22 < kanzure> > that people who have done open projects, or related things, need to input 15:22 < kanzure> > into this. I have done a bit of research and am needing anyone who can 15:22 < kanzure> > possibly have some correspondence with me and maybe show how things will be 15:22 < katsmeow-afk> characterising the Taliban, for instance, as a war-making terrorst org, when the usa hasn't been out of a war in 100 years, is ludicrus 15:22 < kanzure> > handled if the choice is made to go Open with past, present, and/or future 15:22 < kanzure> > works and projects. 15:22 < kanzure> > I think this volunteer organization is very much aligned by default, by 15:22 < kanzure> > definition, with the Open and Free Software and related movements, however 15:22 < kanzure> > the person who started this is in his mid 90s now, is still alive and well 15:22 < kanzure> > for his age, but doesn't know about these things. I am trying to bridge the 15:22 < kanzure> > gap between us and the all encompassing open developments that are growing 15:22 < kanzure> > worldwide. 15:24 * katsmeow-afk ponders on stomping on kanzure's next conversation without waitng for a pause in that conversation 15:24 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: you're perfectly welcome to 15:24 < kanzure> this is an irc channel.. it can handle more than one conversation at a time 15:24 < katsmeow-afk> it would be impolite of me to do so 15:24 < kanzure> i am a very impolite person 15:25 * katsmeow-afk nods 15:25 < Mo|ybdenum> *blinks a few times* 15:26 < Mokbortolan_> I think it's funny how quickly people like to dismiss the profound differences between men and women 15:26 < Mo|ybdenum> and that was a good conversation too :( 15:26 < Mo|ybdenum> profound differences? 15:26 < Mokbortolan_> in the brain, especially 15:27 < Mokbortolan_> although I guess in this case "profound" is a matter of degree 15:27 < katsmeow-afk> i tend to think many of those are imposed while growing up tho 15:27 < kanzure> billions and billions 15:27 < katsmeow-afk> not all, but many 15:27 < Mokbortolan_> (male vs female) vs (male vs male) 15:28 < Mokbortolan_> katsmeow-afk: I'm really referring to the white/grey matter differences 15:29 < katsmeow-afk> i wis the edges could be taken off , and poele would stop trying to live on the fringes of the bell curve of gender-steriotype behaviors 15:29 < Mokbortolan_> and from what I've read, post-natal changes to that are few 15:30 < katsmeow-afk> problem is the brain is programmable over the years, and with it comes some physical changes 15:30 < Mokbortolan_> problem? 15:30 < Mo|ybdenum> i think Kat means in the sense of saying there is this hardline difference 15:31 < katsmeow-afk> and in some case, physical attributes of the local environment play a huge part: consider home ec classes, body size 15:31 < Mokbortolan_> they're not the same 15:31 < Mokbortolan_> male and female brains are not the same 15:32 < Mokbortolan_> but, what does that mean? what are the substantive differences? 15:32 < katsmeow-afk> there is some hardline differences, crack-addicted babies are prone to addiction to anyting the rest of their lives, and may well become addrenaline junkies and act out in behavoral ways 15:33 < katsmeow-afk> so it's a small leap to saying otehr chemical soup difference neonatally can have some difference 15:33 < katsmeow-afk> but the human should be smart enough to minimise a lot of that 15:33 < Steel3> hard line differences are hard to separate from societal condition differences, given that the needs of our environment shape the brain 15:34 < kanzure> all of this is boring let's just sacrifice katsmeow-afk and scan in her brain 15:34 < kanzure> then we will have real answers 15:34 < katsmeow-afk> i agree, but there are cases where a 120lb woman wants to be a heavyweight boxer, and the 250lbs 6-4 man wants to be a woman 15:35 < katsmeow-afk> "want" to be taken with a grain of salt 15:35 < Mokbortolan_> I don't really have an argument, except to say that people who maintain that men and women are exactly the same do so out of allegiences to something other than reality 15:36 < katsmeow-afk> anyhow, i do need to go afk, and kansure may have a cow if i don't, regardless if the rest of you continue the conversation 15:36 < Mariu> kanzure, what about advanced sensors that scan her brain as alternative ? 15:36 < kanzure> Mariu: what sensors? 15:36 < Mariu> kanzure: don't know 15:36 * Mokbortolan_ looks up brain scans of trans- people. 15:36 < Steel3> Mokbortolan_: not exactly the same, but we can't tell which differences are innate and which are social (for a developed brain) 15:37 < kanzure> why would that matter? 15:37 < Steel3> Because it would indicate where 'differences between men and women' are (at least attitude/personality/brain wise) more a matter of biology or how they're treated culturally 15:38 < kanzure> neuroplasticity is a fact 15:38 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_ was mentioning that there are genetic brain differences 15:38 < kanzure> but, there are genetic brain differences between all of us 15:38 < Mariu> ^ 15:38 < Steel3> And we don't know what those are unfortunately, as far as I know 15:39 < kanzure> genetic brain differences are easy to tell 15:39 < kanzure> just scan for the known brain snps 15:39 < Mokbortolan_> women have more interconnects and smaller processors, men have bigger processors and fewer interconnects 15:39 < strangewarp> If you don't like your brain, change it 15:39 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: "smaller processors"? 15:39 < kanzure> what 15:39 < Mariu> LOL 15:39 < Steel3> Mok: Do you know for sure that's biological and not social? 15:39 < Mokbortolan_> Steel3: I'm pretty sure 15:39 < kanzure> are any of you neuroscientists or am i pissing in the wind here? 15:39 < Mariu> Miniature versions 15:39 < Mokbortolan_> I'm an armchair neuroscientist 15:40 < Steel3> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/677048.stm eg. 15:40 < Mokbortolan_> I get all my information from Time magainze 15:40 < Mariu> would be nice to design your own brain 15:40 < kanzure> then do it 15:40 < kanzure> nobody is stopping you 15:41 < Mokbortolan_> except that pesky reality 15:42 < kanzure> what? 15:42 < kanzure> how? 15:42 < Mokbortolan_> Steel3: the taxi drivers grew a section of their brain, they didn't completely lay it out differently 15:42 < kanzure> there is nothing stopping Mariu from "designing a brain" 15:42 < Steel3> point is we don't know what the extent of cultural vs biological is 15:42 < kanzure> Steel3: neuroplasticity is still a fact.. "culture" doesn't change that 15:43 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: you're right 15:43 < Steel3> Right! But we can't tell which differences between men and women are caused by what 15:43 < Mokbortolan_> implementation, however, is another matter :p 15:43 < Steel3> or at least not well 15:43 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: hee he didn't specify that 15:43 < Mo|ybdenum> the only way you'd be able to figure out what is and isn't culturally based would be raising someone in seclusion and that's all kinds of human rights abuses. 15:44 < Mokbortolan_> Steel3: teh differences can be seen at 26 weeks of fetal development 15:44 < kanzure> Mo|ybdenum: not true.. you can test neural tissue cultures and figure out which modes of plasticity are available under which conditions 15:44 < Mokbortolan_> ostensibly before culturally-induced changes can occur :p 15:44 < Steel3> doesn't help much with full developed brain 15:44 < Steel3> partially, yes 15:45 < Mokbortolan_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20600789 15:45 < kanzure> if you are going to claim all this nonsense about culture/social, 15:45 < Mariu> you could do it through bio-hacking 15:45 < kanzure> then look at other animals 15:45 < kanzure> and stop complaining to me about this 15:45 < Mariu> *biohacking 15:46 < Mokbortolan_> Mariu: I'd settle for simpler organs 15:47 < Mokbortolan_> lots of folks out there needing kidneys, after all 15:47 < kanzure> oh that's what i should have them do 15:47 < kanzure> Steel3: i should have them make a black market app for organs 15:47 < Steel3> hah 15:47 < Mokbortolan_> or, barring that, I'd like a way to tack additional brains onto my own 15:49 < Mokbortolan_> although, that would make finding a hat that fits much more difficult 15:49 < Mariu> an engineered brain will problably made out of modules, each module taking certain functions of the brain 15:50 < Mariu> each module handling 15:50 < Mariu> * 15:57 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:57 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:58 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:59 * katsmeow-afk does a flyby 16:00 < katsmeow-afk> raising someone in seclusion won't help, because all the tasks for survival that are gender specific in a society would need to be done by the one person for them to survive 16:01 < Mariu> you upload the tasks 16:01 < katsmeow-afk> cuttng firewood, killing animals for food, home construction,, or gardening, cooking, clothes mending, cleaning 16:01 < Mariu> killing animals ?? 16:02 < katsmeow-afk> ok, eating them live 16:02 < Mariu> that's not modern at all 16:02 < Mariu> not even civilised 16:02 * katsmeow-afk looks for where she said "modern" 16:03 < Mariu> imagine having a species using you as food material 16:03 < Mariu> I bet you would like that 16:03 < katsmeow-afk> i didn't say i agree with it 16:04 < katsmeow-afk> i recently discovered i have been dietarily protien deficient, but instead of killing animals, i am buying fortified whey protien powders, so please get off my back 16:05 < Mokbortolan_> that whey comes from somewhere 16:05 < Mokbortolan_> probably cows 16:06 < katsmeow-afk> i grew up on a farm, as previously stated, and was several times forced to eat part of one of my non-human friends, i severely didn't like that 16:06 < Mariu> *civilized 16:06 < Mokbortolan_> yeah, probably not a good idea to befriend the livestock for that reason 16:06 < Mokbortolan_> hard not to do though when you're a kid 16:06 < katsmeow-afk> it's a fact humans must eat, but at least i am not killing the cow 16:07 < Mokbortolan_> I've always been of the opinion that the closer you are to the animal, the better 16:08 < Mokbortolan_> to help you be grateful and respectful rather than flippant, tossing out meat that wasn't spiced to your liking 16:09 < katsmeow-afk> does anyone with knowledge know if the whey powders are a suitable offset for not eating cows and pigs and rabbits and chickens and etc? 16:09 < Mokbortolan_> in a dietary sense? 16:09 * katsmeow-afk nods 16:09 < Mokbortolan_> no 16:10 < katsmeow-afk> what's missing, and what do i do about it? 16:10 < Mokbortolan_> you'll need b12 and vitamin d at minimum 16:10 < katsmeow-afk> that's in a vit pill 16:10 < Mokbortolan_> I was a strict vegetarian for a while 16:10 < Mokbortolan_> not really 16:10 < katsmeow-afk> ingredient list says it is 16:10 < Mokbortolan_> bioavailability is an issue 16:10 < Mokbortolan_> and you're a female, right? 16:10 < katsmeow-afk> that's hard to find out about from a pill company 16:11 * katsmeow-afk nods some more 16:11 < katsmeow-afk> but, why would that matter? 16:11 < Mokbortolan_> you'll also need iron, and no, supplements are not a good substitute 16:11 < Mokbortolan_> as my wife found out 16:11 < katsmeow-afk> well, some epople do not absorb stuff same as other epople 16:11 < Mokbortolan_> women need more iron than men 16:11 < Mokbortolan_> this is true 16:12 < Mokbortolan_> men only lose iron when we cut ourselves :p 16:12 < katsmeow-afk> without blood testing, there's not a good way to see if you aren't absorbing, sort of a deficiency disease or disability,, or death 16:12 < Mokbortolan_> there's a quick test for anemia 16:12 < Mokbortolan_> not precise, but accurate 16:12 < katsmeow-afk> iron isn't lost in blood cell death? 16:13 < Mokbortolan_> no, it gets recycled by the spleen 16:13 < katsmeow-afk> hmm 16:13 < Mokbortolan_> flip down your lower eyelid, if the tissue there is nice and red, you're fine 16:13 < Mokbortolan_> if it's pale, you're anemic 16:13 < katsmeow-afk> i'll chec later when i have a mirror handy 16:14 < Mokbortolan_> it's really hard to substitute animal flesh (long term) in the human diet 16:14 < Mokbortolan_> you can do it for a long time, no doubt 16:14 < Mokbortolan_> or, some people can 16:14 < Mokbortolan_> but at a cost 16:15 < Mariu> Moby did it 16:15 < katsmeow-afk> yeas,, i was running into that on the protein issue 16:15 < Mariu> ... the singer 16:16 < Mokbortolan_> protein isn't really an issue though 16:16 < Mokbortolan_> there's tons of protein in vegetable foods 16:16 < katsmeow-afk> afaik i had all the B vits and otehr stuff,, prolly a cholesteral imbalance 16:16 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, but veggies come with calories, and often cost more than grains 16:18 < Mokbortolan_> and if you're gluten intolerant, you've got some serious issues being vegan :p 16:18 < Mariu> you design your body to be gluten tolerant 16:18 < katsmeow-afk> i am often pissed that my garden veggies are coverd with flecks of ash from someone's burning garbage 16:18 < Mokbortolan_> Oh do I? 16:18 < Mo|ybdenum> yeah, I know all about gluten intolerance and lactose intolerance. 16:19 * katsmeow-afk eats breads just fine 16:19 < Mokbortolan_> eww 16:19 < Mokbortolan_> live out inthe country, I take it 16:19 < katsmeow-afk> you don't like bread? 16:19 < katsmeow-afk> yeas 16:19 < Mokbortolan_> eww to the ashes 16:19 < Mo|ybdenum> more like bread doesn't like me. 16:19 < katsmeow-afk> fresh country air is often far more polluted than the city air 16:20 < ThomasEgi> Mo|ybdenum, be glad it is only gluten. mate of mine had fructose intollerance. 16:20 < Mo|ybdenum> O_o how do you live being allergic to fructose 16:20 < katsmeow-afk> gas prices in some way reflect the chemistry in it to modify emmisions, yet the epople driving the cars burn garbage, and there's some seriosly toxic stuff from buring plastics at low temperatures 16:21 < ThomasEgi> he could count the dishes he could eat on one hand 16:21 < kanzure> ah yes the mythical fructose-free fructose 16:21 < ThomasEgi> well. you pretty much have to eat meat, cooked, with no spice and nothing. 16:21 < ThomasEgi> there are a few ingredients that are low on fructose 16:21 < katsmeow-afk> no garlic or tumeric?! 16:22 < ThomasEgi> nothing. execpt meat , cooked in (i think olive oil?) 16:22 < ThomasEgi> not sure. 16:22 < Mo|ybdenum> or paprika probably. 16:22 < ThomasEgi> and rye bread iirc 16:22 < katsmeow-afk> ouch 16:22 < ThomasEgi> after a year he was able to eat banana. no idea what's low fructose bout them.. 16:22 < ThomasEgi> well after 4 years in total. he's now back to normal. 16:23 < ThomasEgi> strange body he has. but fructose intollerance runs in his family tree. 16:23 < katsmeow-afk> "set that replicator to 'low fructose'" 16:23 < katsmeow-afk> good thing there's other sugars 16:23 < katsmeow-afk> anyhow, i need to afk again 16:23 < ThomasEgi> time for bed for me too. 16:24 < kanzure> http://ipod.com/init 16:24 < kanzure> ph33r 16:25 < Mo|ybdenum> is dat sum phr34king 16:27 < kanzure> http://pastebin.com/yZxWJD9n 16:27 < kanzure> if it 404s. 16:55 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:57 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:04 < jrayhawk> FWIW nobody eats bread fine; the CXCR3/zonulin cascade is bad news. 17:05 < kanzure> i wonder what the synthesis steps are for modern contraceptives 17:05 < jrayhawk> Whey contains a bunch of IGF-1, which is a nondiscriminating growth promotor. 17:05 < jrayhawk> It is a good idea when you are a child and need a lot of nonspecific growth, it is somewhat more problematic when you are an adult. 17:06 < jrayhawk> Carnitine and the various B-vitamins are difficult to get from non-meat sources, so you should worry about those. 17:07 < jrayhawk> You should also worry about long-chain omega-3; terrestrial plant life simply will not cut it. 17:07 -!- Steel3 [43f624a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.246.36.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07 < jrayhawk> Eggs are a better option than whey; go for free-range/pastured eggs to maximize omega 3 17:08 < jrayhawk> and eat a shitload of saturated fat to make the most of whatever long-chain PUFA you can get 17:09 < jrayhawk> The big problem with eggs is that eggwhites contain avidin which only goes away with high temperature cooking, but high temperature cooking oxidizes PUFA 17:09 < jrayhawk> they're a pretty crap protein source, but they're still less awful than whey. 17:09 < jrayhawk> I've lately just taking to tossing the whites and eating the yolks raw. 17:09 < jrayhawk> s/taking/taken/ 17:11 < jrayhawk> If you're okay with it morally and can manage to stomach it, http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/CodLiverOil/index.cfm will take care of most of your A/B/D vitamin problems and omega 3 intake 17:12 < jrayhawk> tropicaltraditions.com sells bucks of saturated fat; the expeller-pressed variety is essentially tasteless. 17:12 < jrayhawk> s/bucks/buckets/ 17:13 < kanzure> woulda liked bucks.. gotta hunt down those animals 17:15 < jrayhawk> I guess I should qualify my CXCR3/zonulin snipe a little better... 17:15 < jrayhawk> I'm not suggesting you have coeliac; intestinal permeability is a separate but related issue. Coeliac is an acute inflammatory and often painful reaction (that some people have) to lymphatic infiltration by grains (which seemingly everyone has to varying degrees). 17:16 < jrayhawk> Being born without coeliac is like being born without pain receptors. Just because you don't get acute inflammation and pain when punching yourself in the face doesn't make it a good idea. 17:24 < Mo|ybdenum> would pea or hemp protein be an option? 17:24 < Mo|ybdenum> because i don't do wheat or dairy. 17:31 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-69-249-188-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:38 < jrayhawk> FWIW fermentation often gets rid of problematic compounds, so your options can expand somewhat with that in mind. 17:38 < kanzure> hmm the openscad guy is commiting to scl now 17:38 < kanzure> *committing 17:38 < kanzure> "Hi guys - we've started working on the BRL-CAD SCL/github SCL syncing effort, and as part of that I would like to ask if the following patch could be applied to the github CMake files?" 17:38 < kanzure> well i'm glad brlcad is integrating with scl again 17:38 < kanzure> too bad nist isn't doing what they're supposed to 17:45 < kanzure> oh wait 17:45 < kanzure> clifford yapp is starseeker, not clifford wolf 17:46 < kanzure> so no, not the openscad guy, the brlcad guy :) 17:46 -!- nchaimov [~nchaimov@c-67-171-214-94.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:56 < kanzure> http://marblar.com/2012/03/dna-click-ligation/ 18:00 < kanzure> http://marblar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/copper-free-click-ligation-page-nos-chem-comm-2011.pdf 18:17 < kanzure> so obviously the company sponsoring the competition wants to steal all the "IP" 18:25 < kanzure> "Edited by Jack W. Szostak" haha in other words 'shit is going down' 18:26 < kanzure> page 2 has a better diagram of this dna ligation chemistry: http://marblar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/triazole-DNA-PNAS-with-page-Nos.pdf 18:27 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:30 < kanzure> yashgaroth: logs.. 18:31 < yashgaroth> whoa now I'm not diving into the male/female debate 18:31 < kanzure> no.. the last thing 18:31 < kanzure> page 2 http://marblar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/triazole-DNA-PNAS-with-page-Nos.pdf 18:33 < kanzure> i haven't found the yield yet 18:37 < yashgaroth> it's an interesting idea...if you can get a linker that's more efficient for synthesis than pamidites, 'twould be awesome 18:38 < kanzure> i don't think anyone uses phosphoramidites to link together 100mers 18:38 < kanzure> yashgaroth: have you seen otherwise? 18:39 < d3nd3> kanzure: hi 18:39 < yashgaroth> I'd imagine people just use overlap extension pcr for that 18:39 < kanzure> i think there's a technical reason that you can't join 100mers with phosphoramidite chemistry 18:40 < yashgaroth> efficiency would be total shit 18:40 < yashgaroth> not to mention self-ligation and all that 18:40 < kanzure> why would there be self-ligation? 18:41 < kanzure> one end of your free-floating 100mer would be capped, another would be free to bind with valid uh.. targets 18:41 < yashgaroth> depends how you're doing the reaction, but there's no real reason to attempt ligating them when you can take the 3bp overlap hit and just use pcr 18:42 < kanzure> 3bp overlap is enough for extension pcr? 18:42 < kanzure> what? i thought it needs to be more like.. 10-15 18:42 < yashgaroth> you'd probably want more, but still, it's easier than ligating them at the very end with pamidite chem 18:50 < yashgaroth> I wonder if it'd be possible to evolve a polymerase that would recognize an entirely artificial backbone 18:50 < yashgaroth> i.e. a backbone with chemistry more amenable to long strand synthesis 18:51 < katsmeow-afk> damn, i thought yo were gonna make me a new lumbar spine 18:52 < fenn> meep 18:53 < kanzure> hi fenn 19:08 < kanzure> fenn: the solution was "login again" 20:03 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:14 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:33 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:35 -!- thesnark|afk [~thesnark@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:06 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-23-222.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:09 < kanzure> "Don't try to construct the future like a building, because your current blueprint is almost certainly mistaken." 21:09 < kanzure> MY BLUEPRINT IS PERFECT 21:09 < kanzure> provably so! in haskell 21:11 < delinquentme> ^ 21:13 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:19 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-69-249-188-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jmil] 21:21 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:21 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-69-249-188-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:24 < n_bentha> hey... 21:24 < n_bentha> anyone done transformation recently? 21:24 < yashgaroth> does yesterday count 21:24 < n_bentha> the protocol i was using hasn't been going so well. 21:25 < yashgaroth> deeeetails 21:25 < n_bentha> yes yashgaroth! i was going to do one today, but didn't cuz some retard who was supposed to have the bacterial cultures ready didn't. 21:25 < yashgaroth> oh god you're not making your own competent cells are you 21:25 < n_bentha> well it was the cacl2 method, but from some ancient book and it had lots of centrifugation steps and a really short heat-shock time, and long ice-times 21:25 < n_bentha> yes yashgaroth i was 21:26 < yashgaroth> you poor bastard 21:26 < n_bentha> tell me about it. stupid grant doesn't come in for another few weeks 21:26 < yashgaroth> so you're not getting any colonies or what 21:27 < n_bentha> well i got some colonies when i tested the cells for efficiency--but not many on the plate 21:28 < n_bentha> and i froze them and then tried them later, but they didn't work. then i tried to use an old stock and that didn't work either. 21:28 < n_bentha> so I saw this today: http://tequals0.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/p1010516.jpg 21:29 < n_bentha> could I just go ahead w/ that protocol and not make a whole batch of aliquoted competent cells? 21:29 < yashgaroth> needs an ice step after the heat shock 21:31 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-69-249-188-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jmil] 21:31 < yashgaroth> also it sounds counterintuitive put try using less DNA 21:31 < yashgaroth> but* 21:32 < n_bentha> so after the initial 15 minutes on ice w/ dna, there's a 5 minute step. is that just room temp before the heat shock? 21:32 < yashgaroth> god no, go straight from ice to the 42 21:32 < yashgaroth> also if you are making your own cells, make sure they're in exponential growth 21:34 < yashgaroth> ice after heat shock is like 30seconds btw 21:34 < n_bentha> ya that was probably the problem. stupid lab mate let them shake too long. 21:34 < n_bentha> 30s? No wai! It was longer on the protocol I had. 21:35 < yashgaroth> ehh you can do a few minutes, I don't usually bother 21:35 < n_bentha> I guess I should go ahead and centrifuge the cells when I pull them out of the shaker, right? 21:35 < n_bentha> Shit nevermind. Stupid me 21:36 < yashgaroth> ya don't pellet cells you don't plan on lysing 21:37 < n_bentha> I'll take the colony off the plate, stick it in the 0C cacl2 (250ul), vortex, add DNA, let it chillax for 15min, then heat shock for 90seconds, then ice for 30 and plate? 21:38 < n_bentha> oh 250LB and then plate 21:38 < n_bentha> Sound good? 21:38 < n_bentha> And add a little less than 10uL DNA 21:39 < yashgaroth> I'd recommend a gentle pipetting rather than vortex, and SOC rather than LB, if you have it 21:39 < n_bentha> sure. 21:39 < yashgaroth> and make sure the rescue media is prewarmed, natch 21:39 < kanzure> yashgaroth: wait why wouldn't he make his own competent cells? 21:39 < kanzure> what's the alternative? 21:39 < n_bentha> order 21:39 < yashgaroth> premade cells from...invitrogen's what we use, I think 21:40 < n_bentha> yeah, that's what i used to use 21:40 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: i agree with jrayhawk's nutritional advice. another vegetarian protein concentrate is pea protein, about $14/lb. most days i eat a 15 oz can of sardines for breakfast 21:40 < n_bentha> hmmm...warm lb. it's got what cells crave 21:40 < yashgaroth> it *does* have electrolytes 21:41 < yashgaroth> 10g/L if I recall 21:41 < fenn> why is it so hard to make your own competent cells? 21:41 < fenn> i mean, aside from not having correct instructions 21:41 < n_bentha> bad voodoo, fenn 21:41 < yashgaroth> it's not, but many people prefer the reliability of blaming someone else if it goes bad 21:42 < fenn> just have your robot do it 50 times 21:42 < n_bentha> yashgaroth, my competent cell protocol had a bunch of centrifugation steps. u think that's what f'd things up along w/ cell not in the growth phase?? 21:42 < fenn> (what do you mean you dont have a robot?) 21:42 < yashgaroth> you're sticking pelleted cells into the cacl2? 21:42 < n_bentha> we couldn't afford robots, so we hired some undergrads 21:42 < n_bentha> that's what the protocol i was told to follow said, yash 21:43 < n_bentha> I said literally to my over-lord, "why the fuck do we have to pellet these cells?" 21:43 < yashgaroth> I learned it with suspension cells, but like much of bio, it's all art and little science 21:45 < yashgaroth> anyway that's probably not where your problems are occurring 21:45 < n_bentha> "To prepare competent E. coli a culture is grown and then harvested when 21:45 < n_bentha> it is in log phase, at which stage the bacteria are dividing rapidly. The cells 21:45 < n_bentha> are harvested by centrifugation and washed several times in a chilled 21:45 < n_bentha> buffer containing divalent cations, typically CaCl2. The bacteria are finally 21:45 < n_bentha> suspended in a small volume of the buffer so that they are present at a high 21:45 < n_bentha> density." 21:46 < yashgaroth> how did the protocol you were using differ from that drawing you linked? 21:47 < n_bentha> It had me pellet out and re-suspend the cells multiple times before adding the CaCl2 21:48 < yashgaroth> but you're still resuspending in cacl2, no? 21:48 < n_bentha> and then adding the DNA after the CaCl2 step. 21:48 < n_bentha> hmm I'd have to check. I think it was just re-suspending in some buffer? 21:50 < yashgaroth> did you do a mock transformation with no selection on the plate? was it a lawn? 21:51 < yashgaroth> if you're getting less than thousands, then it's your cell health 21:52 < n_bentha> no, just used the antibiotic plate 21:52 < n_bentha> ok cell health it is 21:52 < n_bentha> stupid cells. 21:52 < n_bentha> this protocol says to just use heat: http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/physio/MolPhysiol/MolPhys/Protocols/pdfs/014.pdf 21:53 < n_bentha> If that flow-chart method doesn't work this friday, I'll try w/ just heat. 21:54 < yashgaroth> that still uses competent cells 21:54 < n_bentha> oh god-damnit 21:55 < n_bentha> sorry yashgaroth. 21:55 < yashgaroth> mmm also which antibiotic are you using? 21:56 < n_bentha> kanamycin 21:56 < yashgaroth> oh damn make sure you do an hour incubation in the rescue media before plating 21:57 < yashgaroth> you can't go straight to the selection plate unless you're using amp etc. 21:57 < yashgaroth> kan'll kill them before they have a chance to express the resistance gene 21:59 < n_bentha> I love you. 21:59 < yashgaroth> d'aww 22:09 < n_bentha> I'll let you know how it goes next week :) 22:09 < yashgaroth> good good 22:10 < fenn> n_bentha: how much would you be willing to pay for a lab robot? 22:11 < kanzure> i think yashgaroth would be a better person to ask 22:11 < kanzure> yashgaroth: how much could your company save by replacing all that manual labor 22:11 < n_bentha> How much would I be willing to pay or how much would my PI be willing to pay? And ya, kanzure is right. 22:12 < kanzure> n_bentha: both 22:12 < n_bentha> Fenn, does the robot just transform the dna, or make competent cells as well? 22:12 < yashgaroth> depends heavily on how capable the robot is 22:12 < kanzure> let's say both, separate, and then just one or the other 22:13 < yashgaroth> how about you make a robot that runs ELISAs, those are bitch work 22:14 < n_bentha> don't they already have robots for that? 22:14 < kanzure> no they are all custom built or cost too much 22:14 < kanzure> by "cost" i mean "sold at a ridiculously high price" 22:14 < yashgaroth> for reading and washing plates, but I dunno about the whole thing 22:15 < yashgaroth> like I give it a hundred sample tubes, and the next morning it tells me the concentrations for each 22:16 < kanzure> yes but again 22:16 < kanzure> for your company i think the value is something like salary per employee * at least 5 employees = X 22:17 < kanzure> well not just salary.. but also wasted materials, wasted time, overhead, ... 22:17 < yashgaroth> oh we probably pay a quarter mil per year for lab assistants 22:17 < n_bentha> the ELISA_Starlet from hamilton robotics is what u want 22:17 < kanzure> company of 30-50? 22:18 < yashgaroth> 24ish 22:18 < yashgaroth> and we're top-heavy 22:18 < kanzure> n_bentha: yes but does it cost <$5k? 22:19 < n_bentha> in your dreams! 22:19 < kanzure> n_bentha: how much would you pay for it? 22:19 < yashgaroth> ooh or a cheap colony picking machine, we're still paying phd's to pick colonies because the machine breaks 22:19 < kanzure> how much do you /want/ to pay for it, i mean 22:19 < kanzure> come on.. use numbers 22:20 < n_bentha> i'd pay 0 dollars becuase I don't have the money. If I had a large facility that I was running (hospital?), then I'd pay alot for it. 22:20 < kanzure> wrong answer 22:20 < fenn> wrong question 22:20 < fenn> 0 is the correct answer 22:20 < fenn> anyway, what i'm after is the maximum your PI would be willing to pay 22:20 < kanzure> haha that's not how PIs work though 22:20 < kanzure> they just write the cost into the grant 22:20 < yashgaroth> if you can entirely replace a person, then it's easily worth their salary, especially if the person you replace was annoying 22:21 < kanzure> fenn: i think biotech companies are a better vector 22:21 < n_bentha> ke ke. Idk. I'd say 50k would be reasonable if the accuracy is high. 22:21 < kanzure> esp. for cost questios 22:21 < fenn> biotech companies can already just buy an expensive robot 22:21 < yashgaroth> ehh hospitals do a lot more repetitive shit, and they have just as much money 22:21 < kanzure> fenn: then make an expensive robot 22:21 < fenn> ok so why aren't they using robots? 22:22 < fenn> i'll cover it in gold plating if you want 22:22 < kanzure> if $5k will get something that is high precision, 22:22 < kanzure> then $200k should be talking to my fucking car parked down the street 22:22 < fenn> wtf do you need precision for in a lab robot 22:22 < n_bentha> haha, funny fenn. 22:22 < yashgaroth> heh 22:22 < fenn> at most it needs to be repeatable to within a 1mm 22:22 < n_bentha> 1mm is distance, i'm talking about results 22:23 < fenn> now i'm confused. are you talking about volume? 22:23 -!- katsmeow-afk is now known as katsmeow 22:24 < n_bentha> nevermind fenn. 22:24 * fenn mumbles something about market research firms 22:25 < n_bentha> (accuracy of true values vs values the robot gives from doing the assays) 22:25 < kanzure> n_bentha: please rant about your dream features :P 22:26 < kanzure> also! would you like a dna synthesizer with that? 22:26 < n_bentha> Only if it's an enzymatic dna synthesizer ;) 22:26 < kanzure> what about one that works based on ligation? 22:26 < kanzure> like a library-based ligating device 22:27 < fenn> ok i see, you're talking about something that does ELISA and i'm talking about something that just moves around and pipets stuff from one well to another 22:27 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:27 < n_bentha> ah ok fenn. but ya you can do better than 1mm accuracy even w/ moving things around. 22:28 < n_bentha> some robots can be calibrated to be very precise 22:28 < fenn> sure, 0.1mm is easy 22:30 < n_bentha> kanzure: wouldn't a dna synth like that need a large library and lots of up-keep? or could it use enzymes and primers to re-generate its library? 22:31 < n_bentha> man, we had this one robot....it was such a pain. it took so long to calibrate, and wouldn't work as fast as we had hoped, and then it didn't do it's job properly for a while at the beggining. 22:32 < n_bentha> I'm still faster and more efficient than it is...but it's nice cuz it reduces eye and hand strain and is consistent now that it's 'optimized'. 22:33 < fenn> what do you mean calibrating? 22:34 < n_bentha> well u have to teach the robot where things are each time, and adjust parameters to make it work well 22:35 < fenn> because plates are different? 22:35 < fenn> i can't really see selling a robot that didnt work out of the box 22:35 < n_bentha> It depends on how the robot is made and works. 22:36 < fenn> let's say it has a table with a grid of attachment points 22:37 < fenn> you open up the software and drag an icon of a plate carrier to the grid representation onscreen 22:37 < n_bentha> But when you have a sample somewhere in space, and the robot is working around it w/ high prescision. Then you need to tell the robot this is point (0, 0), this is point (0, 100) and this is point (100,0) so that it knows the spacial relations of things. 22:37 < katsmeow> vision would be oodles of help, i think 22:37 < n_bentha> If the robot had some sensors or someshit, then I guess it wouldn't need a hoomin to adjust it, right? 22:37 < fenn> no sensors needed, except maybe limit switches 22:38 < n_bentha> Like lasers or cameras? 22:38 < n_bentha> It's hard to make limit switches that small though.... 22:38 < fenn> (of course i'd add some vision to check that the liquid in your pipet doesn't have any bubbles) 22:38 < fenn> the switches go on the robot's axes, inside the mechanism 22:39 < n_bentha> Even w/ the robot, we had to make sure it wasn't taking up air. 22:39 < fenn> right 22:39 < n_bentha> but what if the robot is not confined, but moving around an area freely 22:39 < fenn> i'm just confused why a manufacturer would require you to calibrate something obvious like the zero position 22:39 < n_bentha> that's what i had to deal w/ :( 22:40 < n_bentha> idk either. i thought it was stupid. i didn't pay for the thing. 22:40 < kanzure> who did? 22:40 < fenn> names have been changed to protect the guilty 22:40 < yashgaroth> PI/taxpayers, presumably 22:40 < katsmeow> because even bolting the root to the supposed zero position doesn't in fact make it be there 22:41 < fenn> eh, this is low precision stuff katsmeow 22:41 < fenn> no need for kinematic mounts or laser interferometry 22:41 < n_bentha> yes, PI + taxpayers 22:42 < yashgaroth> even fitting a tip to a pipettor becomes high-precision without active tactile feedback 22:42 < n_bentha> well i was dealing w/ high prescision stuff, fenn 22:42 < fenn> oh god nevermind 22:42 < n_bentha> but you have to watch out for rotational velocidensity, you know 22:42 < fenn> just grease the muffler bearings 22:42 < yashgaroth> not to mention spatial incontrivances 22:42 < katsmeow> lol 22:43 * katsmeow has a space elevator question when this discussion is winding down 22:43 < fenn> space elevators are dumb 22:43 < kanzure> katsmeow: just say it 22:43 < kanzure> fuck 22:43 < fenn> get a rotating tether 22:43 < kanzure> you don't need permission 22:43 < fenn> who dares ask questions without my permission! 22:43 < delinquentme> me like elevaters 22:43 < delinquentme> jar! 22:43 < kanzure> delinquentme: you like anything 22:44 < fenn> gah LED lighting is weird 22:44 < delinquentme> lolol 22:44 < katsmeow> didn't wanna interrupt, i was just grabbing a queue position 22:44 < delinquentme> true 22:45 < katsmeow> how does the space elevator add to the rotaional velocity of an item it's dragging to space? 22:45 < kanzure> fenn: have you been properly cultured lately? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHJkyMo9MtU 22:45 < katsmeow> there's no diagonal bracing to keep the elevator from bending over 22:45 < fenn> centripetal force 22:45 < delinquentme> katsmeow, cant you make it work w rockets? 22:45 < n_bentha> i thought we were just going to put a rail-gun type of launcher on mars? 22:45 < n_bentha> (i meant the moon) 22:45 < yashgaroth> also the massive counterweigh 22:45 < yashgaroth> t 22:45 < katsmeow> we aren't on Mars 22:46 < katsmeow> we aren't on the moon 22:46 < n_bentha> yea, but if u make the moon a space base, then it makes lots of sense 22:46 < katsmeow> fenn, so the item going up will just accumulate power with no input just because it was raised? 22:46 < n_bentha> but ya a space elevator might be helpful @ first 22:46 < fenn> katsmeow: yep, because the earth is spinning at 1rev/day 22:47 * katsmeow points to the ballerina spinning energy conservation scenario 22:47 < fenn> we already have a velocity of about 1000mph just being on the surface 22:47 < yashgaroth> I'm no physitrist, but it takes the energy from slowing down the earth, no? 22:47 < katsmeow> but lifting something with no force means it is going to slow down relative to the surface 22:48 < n_bentha> which means that it's accelerating in the opposite direction! 22:48 < fenn> who said "no force"? you're fighting against about 1g of downward acceleration most of the way up 22:48 < katsmeow> ballerina spins with arms out, brings arms in and speeds up very fast,, conservation of angular momentum,, how does the elevator not fall over? 22:48 < katsmeow> fenn, "down" is the wrong vector 22:48 < fenn> down is toward the center of the earth 22:49 < delinquentme> ^^ 22:49 < fenn> force is required to draw your arms in 22:49 < katsmeow> yeas, nothing to do with the queston, other than you are moving away from it, because my question applies even if there was no planet 22:49 < fenn> the most stable state has the highest moment of rotational inertia 22:49 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:50 < n_bentha> doesn't the most recently proposed space elevator concept use magnets to elevate the 'arm?' 22:50 < yashgaroth> it doesn't fall over because the counterweight, be it an asteroid or whatever, pulls it upright 22:51 < jrayhawk> bahaha oh space elevator discussions 22:51 < katsmeow> that's a lot of tension pulling out to keep the item from pushing the elevator sideways 22:51 < yashgaroth> that's why you build it out of Material X 22:51 < kanzure> DNA2.0 Inc.'s stats: 30% pharma, 50% agricultural chem, 20% academia 22:51 < kanzure> "They ship ~100 genes a day, avg gene size 1.7 kb." 22:51 < kanzure> "Est they have 50% of us market" 22:51 < kanzure> 1/3 europe, 2/3 USA 22:52 < kanzure> 100 genes per day is 50% of the US market? 22:52 < kanzure> what the fuck 22:52 < fenn> there'd be higher demand if it didn't cost so much 22:52 < kanzure> duh 22:52 < kanzure> 1.7 kb * $0.20/bp = aw hell no 22:53 < yashgaroth> where'd you get those stats from 22:53 < kanzure> yashgaroth: someone went to a DNA 2.0 presentation for me 22:53 < kanzure> so.. $340 * 100 = $34,000/day 22:53 < yashgaroth> p. sure that's only for codon-optimized genes, using their proprietary approach, not the whole dna synth market 22:54 < kanzure> gah... idt said 25,000 orders per day 22:54 < fenn> katsmeow: the tension force is because the cable weighs so much, not because it needs tension to keep from "falling over" 22:54 < fenn> it's already "falling" around the earth because it's in orbit 22:55 < kanzure> yashgaroth: ah 22:56 < yashgaroth> yeah we tried them out, the codon optimization didn't help at all 22:56 < katsmeow> At the same time, if we are to send any kind of a payload up or down the space elevator, its angular momentum will change by two orders of magnitude: its angular velocity is the same at top as at bottom, but angular momentum is proportional to the square of radius, which varies by an order of magnitude in the transit: this will require the cable to apply a force to the payload at right angles to the direction of the cable. 22:57 < yashgaroth> then again phage display panning already tends to select for codon-optimized genes 22:57 < n_bentha> OMG OMG OMG 22:57 < n_bentha> space elevators are just like chromosome during anaphase! 22:58 < yashgaroth> what if we make the elevator out of dna and just ride a polymerase up it 22:58 < yashgaroth> or did I just blow your minds 22:58 < fenn> katsmeow: the mass of the payload has to be some small fraction (10%?) of the counterweight 22:58 < kanzure> what happened to just walking off the edge of the earth 22:58 < kanzure> with an extended pathway 22:59 < n_bentha> hehe, u need cpt. jack sparrow for that! 22:59 < fenn> katsmeow: in many designs the mass of the cable itself compensates for a relatively small counterweight 23:00 -!- Mo|ybdenum [kvirc@173-30-241-198.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:00 < katsmeow> but i am not concerned abot the counterweight, i am asking about the side forces,, and once the cable is pushed tot he side, the distances tween earth to cog and to the counterweight change 23:01 < fenn> the cable is being pulled taut by its own weight and the counterweight 23:01 < katsmeow> ok 23:01 < fenn> you are correct that the cable will bend 23:02 < fenn> but the sideways force increases with the sine of the angle of the bend 23:02 < katsmeow> well, if they ask me about this, i will haveto study this more 23:03 < fenn> iirc there's a mechanism in the counterweight to reel the cable in and out to compensate for this, i never really looked into it 23:03 < n_bentha> Do you think using lasers to power the climber is best? 23:03 < n_bentha> Would putting sats in space that have solar panels and then beam their solar energy to the climber work? 23:03 < fenn> i think using nuclear reactors is best 23:03 < fenn> but nobody cares about my opinion 23:03 < katsmeow> whatever lowers the weight of the car is best 23:03 < katsmeow> lasers may damage the cable 23:04 < n_bentha> :O 23:04 < fenn> it's a long way up 23:04 < fenn> how do you even focus through all that soup 23:04 < n_bentha> idk :( 23:04 < n_bentha> but they did it in that movie... 23:04 < katsmeow> right, diffusion and the cable wandering about 23:04 < fenn> katsmeow: who are you presenting to? 23:04 < n_bentha> real genius 23:04 < fenn> hehehe 23:04 < katsmeow> no one 23:05 < fenn> ok then i suggest reading the technical papers on tethers.com 23:05 * katsmeow notes that 23:05 < fenn> http://tethers.com/Bibliography.html and http://tethers.com/MXTethers.html 23:06 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06 < katsmeow> before i foget, speaking of robots, in a different topic, http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/humanoids/dlr-super-robust-robot-hand 23:06 * katsmeow looks and feels tired 23:07 < kanzure> fenn: did you see that thing about venus project transitioning to open source? or something 23:07 < kanzure> posted to OM asking for help 23:07 < katsmeow> for along time i thought venus was part of seasteading 23:08 < kanzure> venus is just some grumpy old man's art project 23:08 < kanzure> as far as i can tell. 23:08 < katsmeow> k 23:08 < fenn> i think this is the right video about rotating tethers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPx1Nq80jm8 23:09 < fenn> pardon the overly epic music 23:09 < katsmeow> no sound here 23:10 < fenn> at about 3:15 you can see the actual momentum exchange 23:10 < n_bentha> FARIL 23:10 < n_bentha> FAIL* 23:10 < n_bentha> space debris will wipe that shizz out 23:11 < n_bentha> step 1: clean your work space 23:11 * n_bentha goes to dream about robots and space elevators 23:11 < fenn> what's not clear in the video is that the yellow orbit line changes also 23:12 < fenn> n_bentha: hoyt has written extensively on the topic of space debris and creating collision resistant designs 23:12 < fenn> unfortunately the space elevator fanboys are ignorant of his work 23:13 < n_bentha> ya but u still need to clear up the debris for whatever you're going to be sending up into space 23:15 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:15 < katsmeow> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPx1Nq80jm8 isn't about a space elevator, it's abot flinging stuff already in leo out away from earth 23:15 < fenn> the concept generalizes to suborbital payloads 23:16 < fenn> it can pick thing up off the surface of the moon or from the stratosphere (supersonic aircraft) 23:17 -!- ParahSailin__ [~parah@adsl-69-151-192-198.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:17 < fenn> the tip velocity is too high to go deep into earth atmosphere; basically it will melt from friction 23:19 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parah@adsl-69-151-198-222.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23 < superkuh> n_bentha, rotating electrodynamic tethers are the best solution for cleaning up orbit. 23:24 < superkuh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwro-ijCYZc 23:25 < superkuh> http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Space/Spacecraft/EDDE_%20Electrodynamic%20Debris%20Eliminator%20for%20Active%20Debris%20Removal_%20conference_presentation.pdf 23:28 -!- kvltist [~Kvltist@p5B33EBBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:30 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:33 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:37 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40 -!- uniqanomaly_ [~ua@dynamic-78-8-88-93.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:42 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@78.8.211.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:56 -!- katsmeow [~someone@unaffiliated/katsmeow] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] --- Log closed Thu Mar 22 00:00:02 2012